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Question about Jesus dying for our sins.

mrsatan
Posts: 418
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7/21/2014 4:16:03 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
To my knowledge, the belief is that Jesus died to absolve us of our sins, to pay the price for us and save us from eternal damnation.

How can that be true if Jesus were then resurrected? Seems to me it's quite similar to paying for something with a check that bounces.
To say one has free will, to have chosen other than they did, is to say they have will over their will... Will over the will they have over their will... Will over the will they have over the will they have over their will, etc... It's utter nonsense.
celestialtorahteacher
Posts: 1,369
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7/21/2014 10:06:35 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
The Pauline doctrine of Jesus Christ's death redeeming everyone for sins never did make any rational sense as how does a god-man who by definition is eternal, "die" for a mortal? I mean an immortal will never have a fear of death that a mortal man would so the whole deal is bogus from the get go. This is actually ancient pagan theology and practice where either a bloodthirsty god like Moloch demands sacrifice of firstborn sons as proof of loyalty to the god and not the family, or community, or a king to appease a conquering enemy army will sacrifice his dearest son to spare his people. It has nothing to do with one's real moral life and is for psychological show to gullible believers falling for whatever the Authority Figure (Paul in this case) says. Paul says Christians Jump, and Pauline Christians jump. But his doctrine of a god-man suffering for human beings makes zero logical sense.

What does make a great deal of sense is Jesus providing the world's most psychological powerful Image of Self-Sacrifice, the image of the world's most powerful Alpha Male deliberately sacrificing power over human beings for love of human beings. This is what makes Christianity move people- Christ's image of total sacrifice of self for others. Moses didn't do this. Neither did Buddha, neither did Muhammad. They don't get the Christian Message although Buddha got the compassion right but not how to overcome brutality in social relationships as they let the warlords have their way, sometimes even joining them like the Zen samarai did.
bornofgod
Posts: 11,322
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7/21/2014 10:17:12 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/21/2014 4:16:03 PM, mrsatan wrote:
To my knowledge, the belief is that Jesus died to absolve us of our sins, to pay the price for us and save us from eternal damnation.

How can that be true if Jesus were then resurrected? Seems to me it's quite similar to paying for something with a check that bounces.

Christians believe that Jesus died for their sins because that's what the Vatican made them believe in.

We saints know for a fact that God's first saint didn't die for all man's sins. We came to tell God's believers that ALL God's people are saved from their wicked flesh when it dies during this age. We all have to shed blood for believing that this world and all the illusions in it were real when it's not our true reality in God.

Here's the promise of God's written as a prophecy long before us saints came into the world to speak about it;

Jeremiah 31
31: "Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah,
32: not like the covenant which I made with their fathers when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, my covenant which they broke, though I was their husband, says the LORD.
33: But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put my law within them, and I will write it upon their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34: And no longer shall each man teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying, `Know the LORD,' for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, says the LORD; for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more."

The house of Israel means ALL God's people, not just the Jews.
sovereigngracereigns
Posts: 585
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7/22/2014 2:16:33 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/21/2014 4:16:03 PM, mrsatan wrote:
To my knowledge, the belief is that Jesus died to absolve us of our sins, to pay the price for us and save us from eternal damnation.

How can that be true if Jesus were then resurrected? Seems to me it's quite similar to paying for something with a check that bounces.

First of all, Christ died for a particular number of people, not the entire world, but I'm not going to address that for now.

In regard to the resurrection, that's the PROOF that his offering for sins was accepted and made satisfaction to God's justice.

Let me explain.

The sins of his people were "laid on him" (Isaiah 53:6).
They became his, through "imputation" (they were charged to his account).

And so, God the Father charged those sins to him, and that's why he had to die--because "the wages of sin is death." (Romans 6:23)

And he was dead, in the grave, for three days.
And when he arose, it meant the sins were paid for.

He could not be allowed to live if those sins were still unpaid for.

His resurrection was the PROOF that the sins were paid for in full--and that full satisfaction was made.

Now, God's justice can't demand payment twice, so all those for whom Christ died have been saved from God's wrath.

And not only did his death reconcile his people to God and save them from wrath, but they've been raised to eternal life through his resurrection.

Romans 5:8-9
"But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him.
For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.
And not only that, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation."
Beastt
Posts: 5,135
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7/22/2014 12:34:43 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/22/2014 2:16:33 AM, sovereigngracereigns wrote:

In regard to the resurrection, that's the PROOF that his offering for sins was accepted and made satisfaction to God's justice.

Let me explain.

The sins of his people were "laid on him" (Isaiah 53:6).
They became his, through "imputation" (they were charged to his account).

And so, God the Father charged those sins to him, and that's why he had to die--because "the wages of sin is death." (Romans 6:23)

And he was dead, in the grave, for three days.
And when he arose, it meant the sins were paid for.
I'm sure all of those Christians who have died and been resuscitated will be happy to know that according to you, their sins have been atoned for by their own deaths, and they no longer have any need for Jesus.

Christian = brain-dead.
"If we believe absurdities we shall commit atrocities." -- Voltaire
celestialtorahteacher
Posts: 1,369
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7/22/2014 3:28:17 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/22/2014 2:16:33 AM, sovereigngracereigns wrote:
At 7/21/2014 4:16:03 PM, mrsatan wrote:
To my knowledge, the belief is that Jesus died to absolve us of our sins, to pay the price for us and save us from eternal damnation.

How can that be true if Jesus were then resurrected? Seems to me it's quite similar to paying for something with a check that bounces.

First of all, Christ died for a particular number of people, not the entire world, but I'm not going to address that for now.

In regard to the resurrection, that's the PROOF that his offering for sins was accepted and made satisfaction to God's justice.

Let me explain.

The sins of his people were "laid on him" (Isaiah 53:6).
They became his, through "imputation" (they were charged to his account).

And so, God the Father charged those sins to him, and that's why he had to die--because "the wages of sin is death." (Romans 6:23)

And he was dead, in the grave, for three days.
And when he arose, it meant the sins were paid for.

He could not be allowed to live if those sins were still unpaid for.

His resurrection was the PROOF that the sins were paid for in full--and that full satisfaction was made.

Now, God's justice can't demand payment twice, so all those for whom Christ died have been saved from God's wrath.

And not only did his death reconcile his people to God and save them from wrath, but they've been raised to eternal life through his resurrection.

Romans 5:8-9
"But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him.
For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.
And not only that, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation."


You don't know how to think and therefore fall for total irrrationality in your "Christian" beliefs which are not Christian because of your inability to recognize Christian values like Forgiveness of Sin. Paul's theology is irrational and following irrationality doesn't make it any more rational. Christianity is not about putting your brain on hold to hold Christian beliefs. Next time, try thinking logically about what you believe in and don't accept words in a book just because somebody else told you to do so.
mrsatan
Posts: 418
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7/22/2014 4:24:20 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Anyone's insights into why the concept does or doesn't make sense are welcome, but please leave the insults out of it. Not only are they unnecessary, they pull attention away from whatever point you may be making.
To say one has free will, to have chosen other than they did, is to say they have will over their will... Will over the will they have over their will... Will over the will they have over the will they have over their will, etc... It's utter nonsense.
sovereigngracereigns
Posts: 585
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7/22/2014 5:07:33 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/22/2014 3:28:17 PM, celestialtorahteacher wrote:
At 7/22/2014 2:16:33 AM, sovereigngracereigns wrote:
At 7/21/2014 4:16:03 PM, mrsatan wrote:
To my knowledge, the belief is that Jesus died to absolve us of our sins, to pay the price for us and save us from eternal damnation.

How can that be true if Jesus were then resurrected? Seems to me it's quite similar to paying for something with a check that bounces.

First of all, Christ died for a particular number of people, not the entire world, but I'm not going to address that for now.

In regard to the resurrection, that's the PROOF that his offering for sins was accepted and made satisfaction to God's justice.

Let me explain.

The sins of his people were "laid on him" (Isaiah 53:6).
They became his, through "imputation" (they were charged to his account).

And so, God the Father charged those sins to him, and that's why he had to die--because "the wages of sin is death." (Romans 6:23)

And he was dead, in the grave, for three days.
And when he arose, it meant the sins were paid for.

He could not be allowed to live if those sins were still unpaid for.

His resurrection was the PROOF that the sins were paid for in full--and that full satisfaction was made.

Now, God's justice can't demand payment twice, so all those for whom Christ died have been saved from God's wrath.

And not only did his death reconcile his people to God and save them from wrath, but they've been raised to eternal life through his resurrection.

Romans 5:8-9
"But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him.
For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.
And not only that, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation."


You don't know how to think and therefore fall for total irrrationality in your "Christian" beliefs which are not Christian because of your inability to recognize Christian values like Forgiveness of Sin. Paul's theology is irrational and following irrationality doesn't make it any more rational. Christianity is not about putting your brain on hold to hold Christian beliefs. Next time, try thinking logically about what you believe in and don't accept words in a book just because somebody else told you to do so.

One's level of intelligence is totally irrelevant.
Do you believe Christ?
That's the only thing that matters.

You see, Heaven will be filled with people of all different levels of intelligence, as will Hell.
So the question is, where will you be?

Without Christ, you will perish in your sins and go to Hell.
But with Christ, you will never be condemned.

"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
"He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."
(John 3:16-18)