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Atheists, as a Christian, i have a confession

Truth_seeker
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7/22/2014 12:48:23 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
For the past years, i had beef with atheists and agnostics. I've used my competitive debating skills out of pride to break down and humiliate rather than understand them in the same way they did me....i want to build a world of understanding even though i started stalling with that...after being around several atheists both here and outside, i realized they're just like me...i know some of you have some reason for not believing in God and i understand...went through the same, but kept it in the back of my mind...so i hope we can respect our differences and be good friends. If you want to share your story of why you don't believe in God, talk to me...i will listen...i won't judge you...
TheGreatAndPowerful
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7/22/2014 12:55:31 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
That's ok, chances are all you did was humiliate yourself.

Besides, it's not like we'd send you to a place of eternal punishment for all time simply because you made a trivial mistake.

That'd be the height of evil.
Truth_seeker
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7/22/2014 12:57:45 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
This also goes for everyone else (Satanist, pagan, Hindu, etc.) you can also share your stories with me...
JohnMaynardKeynes
Posts: 1,512
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7/22/2014 1:08:07 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/22/2014 12:48:23 PM, Truth_seeker wrote:
For the past years, i had beef with atheists and agnostics. I've used my competitive debating skills out of pride to break down and humiliate rather than understand them in the same way they did me....i want to build a world of understanding even though i started stalling with that...after being around several atheists both here and outside, i realized they're just like me...i know some of you have some reason for not believing in God and i understand...went through the same, but kept it in the back of my mind...so i hope we can respect our differences and be good friends. If you want to share your story of why you don't believe in God, talk to me...i will listen...i won't judge you...

Let's debate it :)
~JohnMaynardKeynes

"The sight of my succulent backside acts as a sedative for the beholder. It soothes the pain of life and makes all which hurts seem like bliss. I urge all those stressed by ridiculous drama on DDO which will never affect your real life to gaze upon my cheeks for they will make you have an excitement and joy you've never felt before." -- Dr. Dennybug

Founder of the BSH-YYW Fan Club
Founder of the Barkalotti
Stand with Dogs and Economics
Truth_seeker
Posts: 1,811
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7/22/2014 1:09:01 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/22/2014 1:08:07 PM, JohnMaynardKeynes wrote:
At 7/22/2014 12:48:23 PM, Truth_seeker wrote:
For the past years, i had beef with atheists and agnostics. I've used my competitive debating skills out of pride to break down and humiliate rather than understand them in the same way they did me....i want to build a world of understanding even though i started stalling with that...after being around several atheists both here and outside, i realized they're just like me...i know some of you have some reason for not believing in God and i understand...went through the same, but kept it in the back of my mind...so i hope we can respect our differences and be good friends. If you want to share your story of why you don't believe in God, talk to me...i will listen...i won't judge you...

Let's debate it :)

lol uhhhh....
JohnMaynardKeynes
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7/22/2014 1:10:11 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/22/2014 1:09:01 PM, Truth_seeker wrote:
At 7/22/2014 1:08:07 PM, JohnMaynardKeynes wrote:
At 7/22/2014 12:48:23 PM, Truth_seeker wrote:
For the past years, i had beef with atheists and agnostics. I've used my competitive debating skills out of pride to break down and humiliate rather than understand them in the same way they did me....i want to build a world of understanding even though i started stalling with that...after being around several atheists both here and outside, i realized they're just like me...i know some of you have some reason for not believing in God and i understand...went through the same, but kept it in the back of my mind...so i hope we can respect our differences and be good friends. If you want to share your story of why you don't believe in God, talk to me...i will listen...i won't judge you...

Let's debate it :)

lol uhhhh....

Seriously, lol. I haven't seen any good arguments so far in my time on this site in favor of God's existence, but I'm open to changing my mind.
~JohnMaynardKeynes

"The sight of my succulent backside acts as a sedative for the beholder. It soothes the pain of life and makes all which hurts seem like bliss. I urge all those stressed by ridiculous drama on DDO which will never affect your real life to gaze upon my cheeks for they will make you have an excitement and joy you've never felt before." -- Dr. Dennybug

Founder of the BSH-YYW Fan Club
Founder of the Barkalotti
Stand with Dogs and Economics
Beastt
Posts: 5,135
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7/22/2014 1:12:15 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/22/2014 12:48:23 PM, Truth_seeker wrote:
For the past years, i had beef with atheists and agnostics. I've used my competitive debating skills out of pride to break down and humiliate rather than understand them in the same way they did me....i want to build a world of understanding even though i started stalling with that...after being around several atheists both here and outside, i realized they're just like me...i know some of you have some reason for not believing in God and i understand...went through the same, but kept it in the back of my mind...so i hope we can respect our differences and be good friends. If you want to share your story of why you don't believe in God, talk to me...i will listen...i won't judge you...

It takes a lot more than competitive debating skills to successfully make a case for that which has no supporting evidence, compared to that which is without any disagreement with the evidence.

I don't believe in God because there isn't any reason to believe in God. Christians seem to be blind to the fact that belief in God is no more rational than belief in Santa Claus or the Easter Bunny. Who dies, went to Heaven, met God and Jesus, and then came back with evidence to support that claim, and then wrote about it? Everything we hear about every god and every religion comes from people with no more knowledge of the things they claim than anyone else. It's all just made-up stories.
"If we believe absurdities we shall commit atrocities." -- Voltaire
Truth_seeker
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7/22/2014 1:15:33 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/22/2014 1:12:15 PM, Beastt wrote:
At 7/22/2014 12:48:23 PM, Truth_seeker wrote:
For the past years, i had beef with atheists and agnostics. I've used my competitive debating skills out of pride to break down and humiliate rather than understand them in the same way they did me....i want to build a world of understanding even though i started stalling with that...after being around several atheists both here and outside, i realized they're just like me...i know some of you have some reason for not believing in God and i understand...went through the same, but kept it in the back of my mind...so i hope we can respect our differences and be good friends. If you want to share your story of why you don't believe in God, talk to me...i will listen...i won't judge you...

It takes a lot more than competitive debating skills to successfully make a case for that which has no supporting evidence, compared to that which is without any disagreement with the evidence.

I don't believe in God because there isn't any reason to believe in God. Christians seem to be blind to the fact that belief in God is no more rational than belief in Santa Claus or the Easter Bunny. Who dies, went to Heaven, met God and Jesus, and then came back with evidence to support that claim, and then wrote about it? Everything we hear about every god and every religion comes from people with no more knowledge of the things they claim than anyone else. It's all just made-up stories.

Very good point, all we have are testimonies of people who say they seen God with no compelling evidence to back it up..so i can see why you would be doubtful of his existence, but i mean, what if you saw God? How would you react?
Beastt
Posts: 5,135
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7/22/2014 1:24:41 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/22/2014 1:15:33 PM, Truth_seeker wrote:
At 7/22/2014 1:12:15 PM, Beastt wrote:
At 7/22/2014 12:48:23 PM, Truth_seeker wrote:
For the past years, i had beef with atheists and agnostics. I've used my competitive debating skills out of pride to break down and humiliate rather than understand them in the same way they did me....i want to build a world of understanding even though i started stalling with that...after being around several atheists both here and outside, i realized they're just like me...i know some of you have some reason for not believing in God and i understand...went through the same, but kept it in the back of my mind...so i hope we can respect our differences and be good friends. If you want to share your story of why you don't believe in God, talk to me...i will listen...i won't judge you...

It takes a lot more than competitive debating skills to successfully make a case for that which has no supporting evidence, compared to that which is without any disagreement with the evidence.

I don't believe in God because there isn't any reason to believe in God. Christians seem to be blind to the fact that belief in God is no more rational than belief in Santa Claus or the Easter Bunny. Who dies, went to Heaven, met God and Jesus, and then came back with evidence to support that claim, and then wrote about it? Everything we hear about every god and every religion comes from people with no more knowledge of the things they claim than anyone else. It's all just made-up stories.

Very good point, all we have are testimonies of people who say they seen God with no compelling evidence to back it up..so i can see why you would be doubtful of his existence, but i mean, what if you saw God? How would you react?

The same way I would react if I saw Santa Claus flying by in a sleigh pulled by flying reindeer, or saw an actual rabbit hopping about with a basket full of eggs it was hiding... I'd doubt my sanity, and justifiably so.

And we should remember that people don't just profess to have seen the Christian God. People also claim they've seen other gods which you don't believe exist. How would you react if you saw Vishnu?
"If we believe absurdities we shall commit atrocities." -- Voltaire
Truth_seeker
Posts: 1,811
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7/22/2014 1:30:33 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/22/2014 1:24:41 PM, Beastt wrote:
At 7/22/2014 1:15:33 PM, Truth_seeker wrote:
At 7/22/2014 1:12:15 PM, Beastt wrote:
At 7/22/2014 12:48:23 PM, Truth_seeker wrote:
For the past years, i had beef with atheists and agnostics. I've used my competitive debating skills out of pride to break down and humiliate rather than understand them in the same way they did me....i want to build a world of understanding even though i started stalling with that...after being around several atheists both here and outside, i realized they're just like me...i know some of you have some reason for not believing in God and i understand...went through the same, but kept it in the back of my mind...so i hope we can respect our differences and be good friends. If you want to share your story of why you don't believe in God, talk to me...i will listen...i won't judge you...

It takes a lot more than competitive debating skills to successfully make a case for that which has no supporting evidence, compared to that which is without any disagreement with the evidence.

I don't believe in God because there isn't any reason to believe in God. Christians seem to be blind to the fact that belief in God is no more rational than belief in Santa Claus or the Easter Bunny. Who dies, went to Heaven, met God and Jesus, and then came back with evidence to support that claim, and then wrote about it? Everything we hear about every god and every religion comes from people with no more knowledge of the things they claim than anyone else. It's all just made-up stories.

Very good point, all we have are testimonies of people who say they seen God with no compelling evidence to back it up..so i can see why you would be doubtful of his existence, but i mean, what if you saw God? How would you react?

The same way I would react if I saw Santa Claus flying by in a sleigh pulled by flying reindeer, or saw an actual rabbit hopping about with a basket full of eggs it was hiding... I'd doubt my sanity, and justifiably so.

And we should remember that people don't just profess to have seen the Christian God. People also claim they've seen other gods which you don't believe exist. How would you react if you saw Vishnu?

Honestly, i'd believe Vishnu exists. You make a good argument, as of now, i don't believe that we are meant to dabble in things unknown to us. However what if we're not supposed to rationalize God's existence but know somewhere in our hearts that he is the one true God?
Truth_seeker
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7/22/2014 1:38:03 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/22/2014 1:10:11 PM, JohnMaynardKeynes wrote:
At 7/22/2014 1:09:01 PM, Truth_seeker wrote:
At 7/22/2014 1:08:07 PM, JohnMaynardKeynes wrote:
At 7/22/2014 12:48:23 PM, Truth_seeker wrote:
For the past years, i had beef with atheists and agnostics. I've used my competitive debating skills out of pride to break down and humiliate rather than understand them in the same way they did me....i want to build a world of understanding even though i started stalling with that...after being around several atheists both here and outside, i realized they're just like me...i know some of you have some reason for not believing in God and i understand...went through the same, but kept it in the back of my mind...so i hope we can respect our differences and be good friends. If you want to share your story of why you don't believe in God, talk to me...i will listen...i won't judge you...

Let's debate it :)

lol uhhhh....

Seriously, lol. I haven't seen any good arguments so far in my time on this site in favor of God's existence, but I'm open to changing my mind.

ummm, well, what's your argument?
MysticEgg
Posts: 524
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7/22/2014 1:38:59 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/22/2014 12:48:23 PM, Truth_seeker wrote:
For the past years, i had beef with atheists and agnostics. I've used my competitive debating skills out of pride to break down and humiliate rather than understand them in the same way they did me....i want to build a world of understanding even though i started stalling with that...after being around several atheists both here and outside, i realized they're just like me...i know some of you have some reason for not believing in God and i understand...went through the same, but kept it in the back of my mind...so i hope we can respect our differences and be good friends. If you want to share your story of why you don't believe in God, talk to me...i will listen...i won't judge you...

Why aren't we all like this, people? :O
JohnMaynardKeynes
Posts: 1,512
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7/22/2014 1:40:48 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/22/2014 1:38:03 PM, Truth_seeker wrote:
At 7/22/2014 1:10:11 PM, JohnMaynardKeynes wrote:
At 7/22/2014 1:09:01 PM, Truth_seeker wrote:
At 7/22/2014 1:08:07 PM, JohnMaynardKeynes wrote:
At 7/22/2014 12:48:23 PM, Truth_seeker wrote:
For the past years, i had beef with atheists and agnostics. I've used my competitive debating skills out of pride to break down and humiliate rather than understand them in the same way they did me....i want to build a world of understanding even though i started stalling with that...after being around several atheists both here and outside, i realized they're just like me...i know some of you have some reason for not believing in God and i understand...went through the same, but kept it in the back of my mind...so i hope we can respect our differences and be good friends. If you want to share your story of why you don't believe in God, talk to me...i will listen...i won't judge you...

Let's debate it :)

lol uhhhh....

Seriously, lol. I haven't seen any good arguments so far in my time on this site in favor of God's existence, but I'm open to changing my mind.

ummm, well, what's your argument?

Well, there are a lot of them, lol. Looking beside the fact that there isn't any hard evidence for him, the best argument against the O3 God, in my view, is the Epicurean Paradox or the Problem of Evil:

P1) God is omnibenevolent, omniscient, and omnipotent.
P2) Therefore, he has the power to stop gratuitous suffering, knows when and that it is occurring and will occur, and wants to end it.
P3) However, gratuitous suffering exists.
P4) It follows from P3 that God is either not omnipotent or not omnibenevolent.
C1) Therefore, the O3 God doesn't exist.
~JohnMaynardKeynes

"The sight of my succulent backside acts as a sedative for the beholder. It soothes the pain of life and makes all which hurts seem like bliss. I urge all those stressed by ridiculous drama on DDO which will never affect your real life to gaze upon my cheeks for they will make you have an excitement and joy you've never felt before." -- Dr. Dennybug

Founder of the BSH-YYW Fan Club
Founder of the Barkalotti
Stand with Dogs and Economics
Truth_seeker
Posts: 1,811
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7/22/2014 1:43:45 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/22/2014 1:40:48 PM, JohnMaynardKeynes wrote:
At 7/22/2014 1:38:03 PM, Truth_seeker wrote:
At 7/22/2014 1:10:11 PM, JohnMaynardKeynes wrote:
At 7/22/2014 1:09:01 PM, Truth_seeker wrote:
At 7/22/2014 1:08:07 PM, JohnMaynardKeynes wrote:
At 7/22/2014 12:48:23 PM, Truth_seeker wrote:
For the past years, i had beef with atheists and agnostics. I've used my competitive debating skills out of pride to break down and humiliate rather than understand them in the same way they did me....i want to build a world of understanding even though i started stalling with that...after being around several atheists both here and outside, i realized they're just like me...i know some of you have some reason for not believing in God and i understand...went through the same, but kept it in the back of my mind...so i hope we can respect our differences and be good friends. If you want to share your story of why you don't believe in God, talk to me...i will listen...i won't judge you...

Let's debate it :)

lol uhhhh....

Seriously, lol. I haven't seen any good arguments so far in my time on this site in favor of God's existence, but I'm open to changing my mind.

ummm, well, what's your argument?

Well, there are a lot of them, lol. Looking beside the fact that there isn't any hard evidence for him, the best argument against the O3 God, in my view, is the Epicurean Paradox or the Problem of Evil:

P1) God is omnibenevolent, omniscient, and omnipotent.
P2) Therefore, he has the power to stop gratuitous suffering, knows when and that it is occurring and will occur, and wants to end it.
P3) However, gratuitous suffering exists.
P4) It follows from P3 that God is either not omnipotent or not omnibenevolent.
C1) Therefore, the O3 God doesn't exist.

Hmm...i'll consider it, might have to study alot for that 1 lol...
JohnMaynardKeynes
Posts: 1,512
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7/22/2014 1:44:39 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/22/2014 1:43:45 PM, Truth_seeker wrote:
At 7/22/2014 1:40:48 PM, JohnMaynardKeynes wrote:
At 7/22/2014 1:38:03 PM, Truth_seeker wrote:
At 7/22/2014 1:10:11 PM, JohnMaynardKeynes wrote:
At 7/22/2014 1:09:01 PM, Truth_seeker wrote:
At 7/22/2014 1:08:07 PM, JohnMaynardKeynes wrote:
At 7/22/2014 12:48:23 PM, Truth_seeker wrote:
For the past years, i had beef with atheists and agnostics. I've used my competitive debating skills out of pride to break down and humiliate rather than understand them in the same way they did me....i want to build a world of understanding even though i started stalling with that...after being around several atheists both here and outside, i realized they're just like me...i know some of you have some reason for not believing in God and i understand...went through the same, but kept it in the back of my mind...so i hope we can respect our differences and be good friends. If you want to share your story of why you don't believe in God, talk to me...i will listen...i won't judge you...

Let's debate it :)

lol uhhhh....

Seriously, lol. I haven't seen any good arguments so far in my time on this site in favor of God's existence, but I'm open to changing my mind.

ummm, well, what's your argument?

Well, there are a lot of them, lol. Looking beside the fact that there isn't any hard evidence for him, the best argument against the O3 God, in my view, is the Epicurean Paradox or the Problem of Evil:

P1) God is omnibenevolent, omniscient, and omnipotent.
P2) Therefore, he has the power to stop gratuitous suffering, knows when and that it is occurring and will occur, and wants to end it.
P3) However, gratuitous suffering exists.
P4) It follows from P3 that God is either not omnipotent or not omnibenevolent.
C1) Therefore, the O3 God doesn't exist.

Hmm...i'll consider it, might have to study alot for that 1 lol...

Lol, we'll I'm glad that you're open to considering it.
~JohnMaynardKeynes

"The sight of my succulent backside acts as a sedative for the beholder. It soothes the pain of life and makes all which hurts seem like bliss. I urge all those stressed by ridiculous drama on DDO which will never affect your real life to gaze upon my cheeks for they will make you have an excitement and joy you've never felt before." -- Dr. Dennybug

Founder of the BSH-YYW Fan Club
Founder of the Barkalotti
Stand with Dogs and Economics
Truth_seeker
Posts: 1,811
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7/22/2014 1:52:58 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/22/2014 1:44:39 PM, JohnMaynardKeynes wrote:
At 7/22/2014 1:43:45 PM, Truth_seeker wrote:
At 7/22/2014 1:40:48 PM, JohnMaynardKeynes wrote:
At 7/22/2014 1:38:03 PM, Truth_seeker wrote:
At 7/22/2014 1:10:11 PM, JohnMaynardKeynes wrote:
At 7/22/2014 1:09:01 PM, Truth_seeker wrote:
At 7/22/2014 1:08:07 PM, JohnMaynardKeynes wrote:
At 7/22/2014 12:48:23 PM, Truth_seeker wrote:
For the past years, i had beef with atheists and agnostics. I've used my competitive debating skills out of pride to break down and humiliate rather than understand them in the same way they did me....i want to build a world of understanding even though i started stalling with that...after being around several atheists both here and outside, i realized they're just like me...i know some of you have some reason for not believing in God and i understand...went through the same, but kept it in the back of my mind...so i hope we can respect our differences and be good friends. If you want to share your story of why you don't believe in God, talk to me...i will listen...i won't judge you...

Let's debate it :)

lol uhhhh....

Seriously, lol. I haven't seen any good arguments so far in my time on this site in favor of God's existence, but I'm open to changing my mind.

ummm, well, what's your argument?

Well, there are a lot of them, lol. Looking beside the fact that there isn't any hard evidence for him, the best argument against the O3 God, in my view, is the Epicurean Paradox or the Problem of Evil:

P1) God is omnibenevolent, omniscient, and omnipotent.
P2) Therefore, he has the power to stop gratuitous suffering, knows when and that it is occurring and will occur, and wants to end it.
P3) However, gratuitous suffering exists.
P4) It follows from P3 that God is either not omnipotent or not omnibenevolent.
C1) Therefore, the O3 God doesn't exist.

Hmm...i'll consider it, might have to study alot for that 1 lol...

Lol, we'll I'm glad that you're open to considering it.

Let you know if i'll debate you...
Beastt
Posts: 5,135
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7/22/2014 2:23:37 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/22/2014 1:30:33 PM, Truth_seeker wrote:
At 7/22/2014 1:24:41 PM, Beastt wrote:
At 7/22/2014 1:15:33 PM, Truth_seeker wrote:
At 7/22/2014 1:12:15 PM, Beastt wrote:
At 7/22/2014 12:48:23 PM, Truth_seeker wrote:
For the past years, i had beef with atheists and agnostics. I've used my competitive debating skills out of pride to break down and humiliate rather than understand them in the same way they did me....i want to build a world of understanding even though i started stalling with that...after being around several atheists both here and outside, i realized they're just like me...i know some of you have some reason for not believing in God and i understand...went through the same, but kept it in the back of my mind...so i hope we can respect our differences and be good friends. If you want to share your story of why you don't believe in God, talk to me...i will listen...i won't judge you...

It takes a lot more than competitive debating skills to successfully make a case for that which has no supporting evidence, compared to that which is without any disagreement with the evidence.

I don't believe in God because there isn't any reason to believe in God. Christians seem to be blind to the fact that belief in God is no more rational than belief in Santa Claus or the Easter Bunny. Who dies, went to Heaven, met God and Jesus, and then came back with evidence to support that claim, and then wrote about it? Everything we hear about every god and every religion comes from people with no more knowledge of the things they claim than anyone else. It's all just made-up stories.

Very good point, all we have are testimonies of people who say they seen God with no compelling evidence to back it up..so i can see why you would be doubtful of his existence, but i mean, what if you saw God? How would you react?

The same way I would react if I saw Santa Claus flying by in a sleigh pulled by flying reindeer, or saw an actual rabbit hopping about with a basket full of eggs it was hiding... I'd doubt my sanity, and justifiably so.

And we should remember that people don't just profess to have seen the Christian God. People also claim they've seen other gods which you don't believe exist. How would you react if you saw Vishnu?

Honestly, i'd believe Vishnu exists.
So for you, seeing is believing? If things in your peripheral vision appear blurry (and they do as our eyes only focus 3 - 5% at the fovea), that means they really are? If you look at the sun and then see a negative of the sun when you look anywhere else and when you blink, that negative sun really exists? If you see a sports play where you were certain the ball was inside the line, but the instant replay shows very clearly that it was outside the line, it means the instant replay has been tampered with? Or is seeing only believing when it comes to gods? If you watch David Copperfield or Criss Angel, the things you see them do, actually happened as you perceived it?

You make a good argument
Thank you. That's kind of you to mention.

as of now, i don't believe that we are meant to dabble in things unknown to us.
How is that anything more than a promotion of continued ignorance? If we never dabble in that which is unknown to us, we can never learn anything new. If we did that from the start of human history, we'd still be living in caves and using our hands instead of Charmin.

However what if we're not supposed to rationalize God's existence but know somewhere in our hearts that he is the one true God?
Well, we don't hold knowledge in our hearts. The heart is a muscle for pumping blood. But I get that you're using the figurative "heart" to mean emotions. Why would a God who constructed a physical realm for our existence, who employed and promotes logic through the mechanisms of nature, and allows us to know what does and doesn't exist by rationalizing objective evidence; want us to completely reverse or abandon all of those means of cognition when it comes to belief in him? It would be completely counter-intuitive and a fairly nasty trick if our eternity hangs in the balance. And with all of the people believing in rather diverse gods by "knowing in their hearts" they exist, there would be no way to tell which of the many asserted gods exists, and which don't.
"If we believe absurdities we shall commit atrocities." -- Voltaire
Truth_seeker
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7/22/2014 2:43:22 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
So for you, seeing is believing? If things in your peripheral vision appear blurry (and they do as our eyes only focus 3 - 5% at the fovea), that means they really are? If you look at the sun and then see a negative of the sun when you look anywhere else and when you blink, that negative sun really exists? If you see a sports play where you were certain the ball was inside the line, but the instant replay shows very clearly that it was outside the line, it means the instant replay has been tampered with? Or is seeing only believing when it comes to gods? If you watch David Copperfield or Criss Angel, the things you see them do, actually happened as you perceived it?

Well seeing is believing by default unless shown otherwise. We doubt Chris Angel because he's a magician, a trickster, so we find ways to doubt him right? I think anyone would doubt the existence of an event happening because it's not natural, not just God.


How is that anything more than a promotion of continued ignorance? If we never dabble in that which is unknown to us, we can never learn anything new. If we did that from the start of human history, we'd still be living in caves and using our hands instead of Charmin.


Good point, but i'v experienced God and how am i supposed to prove to you that he exists? What would be evidence for you?

Well, we don't hold knowledge in our hearts. The heart is a muscle for pumping blood. But I get that you're using the figurative "heart" to mean emotions. Why would a God who constructed a physical realm for our existence, who employed and promotes logic through the mechanisms of nature, and allows us to know what does and doesn't exist by rationalizing objective evidence; want us to completely reverse or abandon all of those means of cognition when it comes to belief in him? It would be completely counter-intuitive and a fairly nasty trick if our eternity hangs in the balance. And with all of the people believing in rather diverse gods by "knowing in their hearts" they exist, there would be no way to tell which of the many asserted gods exists, and which don't.

Maybe it's because we did it ourselves? I mean in this society, i noticed that we promote logic and mechanisms of nature (I'm one of them). I think human experience is entirely subjective, so what's the only solution? A subjective experience. It's more important to focus not on what those people experienced, but what on you experienced as an individual. Have you experienced God?
Beastt
Posts: 5,135
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7/22/2014 3:13:28 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/22/2014 2:43:22 PM, Truth_seeker wrote:
So for you, seeing is believing? If things in your peripheral vision appear blurry (and they do as our eyes only focus 3 - 5% at the fovea), that means they really are? If you look at the sun and then see a negative of the sun when you look anywhere else and when you blink, that negative sun really exists? If you see a sports play where you were certain the ball was inside the line, but the instant replay shows very clearly that it was outside the line, it means the instant replay has been tampered with? Or is seeing only believing when it comes to gods? If you watch David Copperfield or Criss Angel, the things you see them do, actually happened as you perceived it?

Well seeing is believing by default unless shown otherwise. We doubt Chris Angel because he's a magician, a trickster, so we find ways to doubt him right? I think anyone would doubt the existence of an event happening because it's not natural, not just God.
And yet, you stated that if you saw Vishnu, you would then believe he existed. So you take a visual manifestation as objective conclusive evidence. And yet, we know that people hallucinate and have visions, which do not represent reality.


How is that anything more than a promotion of continued ignorance? If we never dabble in that which is unknown to us, we can never learn anything new. If we did that from the start of human history, we'd still be living in caves and using our hands instead of Charmin.


Good point, but i'v experienced God and how am i supposed to prove to you that he exists?
How do you know what you experienced was God? Once again, if you observe Criss Angel, can you claim that you've experienced seeing a man cutting a woman in half, and then putting her back together without any harm coming to her? Or would you say that your perceptions and your interpretation of those perceptions, lead you to believe something you know isn't true?

What would be evidence for you?
I know you're asking with all sincerity but it's really a rather silly question. If I told you I owned a Ferrari and pointed to an empty spot in a parking lot, you'd probably be quick to point out there was no Ferrari there. Why should God be any different than a Ferrari, or the sun, or the wind, or space beyond our atmosphere? Instead, we find that God is exactly like mythical creatures, (i.e. fairies, Leprechauns, mermaids and unicorns). And when people claim they've seen or "experienced" these things, we instantly doubt them... and with good reason.

It is far more honest to say, "I have experienced something which - for lack of another explanation - I believe was God", than to say, "I have experienced God". You experienced something which I believe you couldn't explain, so you slapped the label "God" on it because you found that both satisfying and emotionally pacifying.


Well, we don't hold knowledge in our hearts. The heart is a muscle for pumping blood. But I get that you're using the figurative "heart" to mean emotions. Why would a God who constructed a physical realm for our existence, who employed and promotes logic through the mechanisms of nature, and allows us to know what does and doesn't exist by rationalizing objective evidence; want us to completely reverse or abandon all of those means of cognition when it comes to belief in him? It would be completely counter-intuitive and a fairly nasty trick if our eternity hangs in the balance. And with all of the people believing in rather diverse gods by "knowing in their hearts" they exist, there would be no way to tell which of the many asserted gods exists, and which don't.

Maybe it's because we did it ourselves? I mean in this society, i noticed that we promote logic and mechanisms of nature (I'm one of them). I think human experience is entirely subjective, so what's the only solution? A subjective experience. It's more important to focus not on what those people experienced, but what on you experienced as an individual. Have you experienced God?
There are things about human experience which are subjective. But I wouldn't say that everything about human existence is subjective. There are things we can cross-confirm (taste, smell, touch, hear, and see), which helps us to confirm what is real. Of course we could be fooled into accepting such things but we also have devices we build, using our knowledge of their objective reactions to given conditions, and these devices also confirm what we detect with our senses.

I haven't experienced God despite my 33-years as a theist. I found ways to conclude that God existed. But upon deeper thought and reflection, realized that confirmation-bias explained everything I'd ever attributed to God. The pure fact of the matter is that if God exists and interacts with the physical, there would be physical evidence of God's interaction. And there simply isn't.
"If we believe absurdities we shall commit atrocities." -- Voltaire
Truth_seeker
Posts: 1,811
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7/22/2014 3:22:22 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Well Beastt, you got me lol. If i were in your position, i would honestly not believe in God either because as a Christian in order for us to be converted, i believe that God must act first, not us. I cannot give you a rational explanation for his existence because i don't understand it myself. Maybe it's not supposed to be rational, but supernatural (something beyond our own understanding). I guess i can kindly and humbly give you my opinion or maybe i can tell you more about the Bible and encourage you to try it, you never know. :)
annanicole
Posts: 19,782
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7/22/2014 3:23:06 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/22/2014 2:43:22 PM, Truth_seeker wrote:
So for you, seeing is believing? If things in your peripheral vision appear blurry (and they do as our eyes only focus 3 - 5% at the fovea), that means they really are? If you look at the sun and then see a negative of the sun when you look anywhere else and when you blink, that negative sun really exists? If you see a sports play where you were certain the ball was inside the line, but the instant replay shows very clearly that it was outside the line, it means the instant replay has been tampered with? Or is seeing only believing when it comes to gods? If you watch David Copperfield or Criss Angel, the things you see them do, actually happened as you perceived it?

Well seeing is believing by default unless shown otherwise. We doubt Chris Angel because he's a magician, a trickster, so we find ways to doubt him right? I think anyone would doubt the existence of an event happening because it's not natural, not just God.


How is that anything more than a promotion of continued ignorance? If we never dabble in that which is unknown to us, we can never learn anything new. If we did that from the start of human history, we'd still be living in caves and using our hands instead of Charmin.


Good point, but i'v experienced God and how am i supposed to prove to you that he exists? What would be evidence for you?

Well, we don't hold knowledge in our hearts. The heart is a muscle for pumping blood. But I get that you're using the figurative "heart" to mean emotions. Why would a God who constructed a physical realm for our existence, who employed and promotes logic through the mechanisms of nature, and allows us to know what does and doesn't exist by rationalizing objective evidence; want us to completely reverse or abandon all of those means of cognition when it comes to belief in him? It would be completely counter-intuitive and a fairly nasty trick if our eternity hangs in the balance. And with all of the people believing in rather diverse gods by "knowing in their hearts" they exist, there would be no way to tell which of the many asserted gods exists, and which don't.

Maybe it's because we did it ourselves? I mean in this society, i noticed that we promote logic and mechanisms of nature (I'm one of them). I think human experience is entirely subjective, so what's the only solution? A subjective experience. It's more important to focus not on what those people experienced, but what on you experienced as an individual. Have you experienced God?

Here is a statement from a non-Christian. How do you "listen to it", then not "judge it"?

"The crucifixion of Jesus is the foundation of Christianity and the excuse to live immoral and sinful lives. According to the Pauline doctrine, there is no salvation without the sacrificial death of Jesus, and hence "no salvation outside the Church". Yet the Gospels provide evidence that Jesus was not crucified at all. It was Judas who took Jesus" place on the cross while Jesus escaped for three days and three nights. Judas was transformed to look exactly like Jesus, and the Romans crucified him instead."

Notice the absurdities involved:

(1) "The crucifixion of Jesus is THE "excuse" to live an immoral life.

"What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. We who died to sin, how shall we any longer live therein?" (Rom 6: 1-2)

(2) "According to the Pauline doctrine, there is no salvation without the sacrificial death of Jesus"

That "doctrine" is amply taught throughout the NT, with or without the writings of Paul.

(3) "the Gospels provide evidence that Jesus was not crucified at all"

I think the gospels are pretty plain that Jesus of Nazareth was crucified.

(4) "It was Judas who took Jesus" place on the cross while Jesus escaped for three days and three nights."

"Now this man obtained a field with the reward of his iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out." (Acts 1: 18)

(5) "Judas was transformed to look exactly like Jesus, and the Romans crucified him instead"

... the ole switch-a-roo?

I fail to realize how you'd plan to have any sort of intelligent discussion with a tard like that, but I'd sure like to see it.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
Keltron
Posts: 161
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7/24/2014 12:27:36 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/22/2014 12:48:23 PM, Truth_seeker wrote:
For the past years, i had beef with atheists and agnostics. I've used my competitive debating skills out of pride to break down and humiliate rather than understand them in the same way they did me....i want to build a world of understanding even though i started stalling with that...after being around several atheists both here and outside, i realized they're just like me...i know some of you have some reason for not believing in God and i understand...went through the same, but kept it in the back of my mind...so i hope we can respect our differences and be good friends. If you want to share your story of why you don't believe in God, talk to me...i will listen...i won't judge you...

Bert: "Hey Ernie, why are you holding that banana up to your ear?"

Ernie: "It's keeping the alligators off Sesame Street."

Bert: "But Ernie, there are no alligators on Sesame Street."

Ernie: "That's right Bert!"

You can have a God if it makes you feel more secure, but you really don't need one.
Skepticalone
Posts: 6,087
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7/24/2014 12:49:27 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/22/2014 3:22:22 PM, Truth_seeker wrote:
Well Beastt, you got me lol. If i were in your position, i would honestly not believe in God either because as a Christian in order for us to be converted, i believe that God must act first, not us. I cannot give you a rational explanation for his existence because i don't understand it myself. Maybe it's not supposed to be rational, but supernatural (something beyond our own understanding). I guess i can kindly and humbly give you my opinion or maybe i can tell you more about the Bible and encourage you to try it, you never know. :)

That is a reasonable and intellectually honest position. It is nice to see a civil conversation, sir.
This thread is like eavesdropping on a conversation in a mental asylum. - Bulproof

You can call your invisible friends whatever you like. - Desmac

What the hell kind of coked up sideshow has this thread turned into. - Casten