Total Posts:14|Showing Posts:1-14
Jump to topic:

The Bible can't be the word of God

Benshapiro
Posts: 3,966
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/24/2014 3:49:37 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
The following is taken from http://freethought.mbdojo.com...

"Most Christians seem to think that the bible (as it is now, with its sixty-six or so books, divided into chapters and verses) has existed for thousands of years... The Protestant Church did not agree on which books should be contained in the bible until as late as 1647, at the Assembly of Westminster."

New Testament Books which are now accepted by Christians, but which were for a time rejected, are Hebrews, James, 1 Peter, 2 Peter, 2 John, 3 John, Jude, Revelation.

Books now excluded from the canon, but which are found in some of the older manuscripts of the New Testament, are Shepherd of Hermas, Epistle of Barnabas, 1 Clement, 2 Clement, Paul"s Epistle to Laodiceans, Apostolic Constitutions.

Books accepted as canonical by some Jews, and for most part by the Greek and Roman Catholic churches, but rejected by the Protestants, are Baruch, Tobit, Judith, Book of Wisdom, Song of the Three Children, History of Susanna, Bel and the Dragon, Prayer of Manasseh, Ecclesiasticus, 1 Esdras, 2 Esdras, 1 Maccabees, 2 Maccabees, 3 Maccabees, 4 Maccabees, 5 Maccabees.

The only books of the bible which are accepted as divine by all Jews and all varieties of Christians are the first five books of the Old Testament: the Pentateuch.

There are lost books of the bible, which should have been included into the canon. These books are cited by writers of the Bible, and they are: Book of the Wars of the Lord, Book of Jasher, Book of the Covenant, Book of Nathan, Book of Gad, Book of Samuel, Prophecy of Ahijah, Visions of Iddo, Acts of Uzziah, Acts of Solomon, Three Thousand Proverbs of Solomon, A Thousand and Five Songs of Solomon, Chronicles of the Kings of Judah, Chronicles of the Kings of Israel, Book of Jehu, Book of Enoch.

What we know as the "canonized" bible was not assembled in anything like it's present form until the 3rd century by a council of bishops (although it was still debated for centuries after). They chose which books should be included in the bible, which books were inspired by God, by vote, just as we might vote on a law. (Can you imagine that some books missed out on being The Word of God by one vote?) Were they any more qualified to judge which books were divine than anyone living today? Is their judgement and knowledge any better than ours?

What ever happened to the Gospels according to Thomas, Jade, James, Peter, and the Gospel of the Hebrews, of the Egyptians, of Perfection, of Judas, of Thaddeus, of the Infancy, of the Preaching of Peter, of the Shepherd of Hermas, the Epistle of Barnabas, the Pastor of Hermas, the Revelation of Peter, the Revelation of Paul, the Epistle of Clement, the Epistle of Ignatius, the Gospel of Mary, the Gospel of Nicodemus and of Marcion? They were all not considered inspired (or inspired enough). They did not get voted in. There were also the Acts of Pilate, of Andrew, of Mary, of Paul and Thecla, and many others. If the bishops at the Council of Laodicea in 365 had voted differently, millions of Christians would have believed differently. The vote of the one is the belief of all the others.

There is one important question for you to consider: why are we bound by their opinion?" /endsource

This brings up some very interesting information. (1) how could the divine word of God had been lost, (2) why did bishops ultimately get to decide which books are part of the bible and (3) if the Bible is inerrant, why do so many versions of it exist with books added and subtracted from it? Not even taking into account biblical contradictions.
TheSquirrel
Posts: 83
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/24/2014 4:04:12 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/24/2014 3:49:37 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
...
This brings up some very interesting information. (1) how could the divine word of God had been lost, (2) why did bishops ultimately get to decide which books are part of the bible and (3) if the Bible is inerrant, why do so many versions of it exist with books added and subtracted from it? Not even taking into account biblical contradictions.

The obvious answer is simple and elegant.
"God works in mysterious ways!" :P
No but seriously, non-answers are the best theists have because they can't accept the simplest most concise answer because it doesn't jell with their closely held preconceived beliefs.
Benshapiro
Posts: 3,966
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/24/2014 4:41:09 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/24/2014 4:35:40 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
Inspiration of the bible =/= inerrancy of the bible.

(1) how could the divine word of God had been lost, (2) why did bishops ultimately get to decide which books are part of the bible and (3) if the Bible is inerrant, why do so many versions of it exist with books added and subtracted from it? Not even taking into account biblical contradictions.
celestialtorahteacher
Posts: 1,369
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/24/2014 5:04:54 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
I seriously doubt you'll ever get an honest answer from a Muhammadan about the Bible's defects as a representative of the "Word of God". The same will hold true for Evangelical Christians and Zionist Jews. All three have lied to themselves for so many centuries that they cannot ever adjust to seeing the Bible as anything but their IDOL. Same and worse for Muhammadans with their IDOL, the Quran. These are paper and ink IDOLS being worshiped by modern human beings thinking they are not idol worshipers. Yet the litmus test for idol worshiping, that the IDOL is in command and dictates what is TABOO and what isn't holds true for these Abrahamic religionists who are all very weak believers and do not really trust God but do trust Authority in whatever form Authority takes. If Authority says worship God this way or die, these believers will believe that because Authority told them to believe. Authoritarians thrive on human weakness needing authority figures to help run our social lives. But again and again we find that civilization's advance comes by overthrowing these self-selected Authority figures who proceed, each one, to try to stop all other authority figures from having any social power as they do.

The logical fact always remains that these Abrahamic "Word of God" books cannot be anything other than the works of men and quite territorial battling men at that. So the Books are all deceitfully claiming to be the Word of God.

The real Word of God can be found quite easily if you live in a large city, at least in the West. The Word of God is in your local well-stocked library. The Word of God runs from the children's section all the way through all the categories of books and periodicals because the real Word of God is Everything human beings produce to communicate with each other. Attempts to say the Word of God is this or that are fictions of control freaks who ride on human gullibility and need for authority figures. But grown men and women who want to use their God-given brains will see that this is only human weakness at work and not settle for anything less than direct experience of God through Gnosis, epiphany matched by recorded human knowledge backing epiphany content up.

I teach the New Word of God, btw, the Word of God you can trust because it is written in God's Sign Language where no human being can touch it, written in the stars and planets themselves and their movements through the yearly skies given permanency of symbolic interpretation from thousands of years of human observation.
celestialtorahteacher
Posts: 1,369
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/24/2014 5:10:34 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Proof of the Celestial Torah's Word of God's domination of earthly religions, all of them, can be seen in the fact that the Celestial System is the only religious symbol system that can be found in the pages of most every major newspaper on earth where people are checking their Horus of the Horizon Scopes. Have a happy day, Christians, Jews, Muslims and atheists!
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,927
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/24/2014 6:17:33 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/24/2014 4:41:09 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 7/24/2014 4:35:40 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
Inspiration of the bible =/= inerrancy of the bible.

(1) how could the divine word of God had been lost,

Depends on what you mean by "word of God". I think Jesus is the Word of God and the bible is a testament/witness to this .

See: neo-orthodoxy.

(2) why did bishops ultimately get to decide which books are part of the bible and

Because it was a human process. It wasn't a merely human process, but a human process it was.

(3) if the Bible is inerrant, why do so many versions of it exist with books added and subtracted from it? Not even taking into account biblical contradictions.

The bible isn't inerrant.
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
Benshapiro
Posts: 3,966
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/24/2014 6:19:07 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
The same reasoning you've just used could've justified belief in anything. Including fairies, ogres, and ghosts.
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,927
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/24/2014 6:20:34 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/24/2014 6:19:07 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
The same reasoning you've just used could've justified belief in anything. Including fairies, ogres, and ghosts.

Are you talking to me? No it couldn't.
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
Benshapiro
Posts: 3,966
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/24/2014 6:31:46 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/24/2014 6:20:34 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 7/24/2014 6:19:07 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
The same reasoning you've just used could've justified belief in anything. Including fairies, ogres, and ghosts.

Are you talking to me? No it couldn't.

How do you justify an objective belief if nothing objective supports that belief? It's the same thing as believing in fairies, ogres and ghosts.
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,927
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/24/2014 6:39:13 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/24/2014 6:31:46 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 7/24/2014 6:20:34 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 7/24/2014 6:19:07 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
The same reasoning you've just used could've justified belief in anything. Including fairies, ogres, and ghosts.

Are you talking to me? No it couldn't.

How do you justify an objective belief if nothing objective supports that belief? It's the same thing as believing in fairies, ogres and ghosts.

You are confusing multiple issues here.

You claimed to be offering reasons as to why the bible can't be the word of God. I offered reasons that undercut your reasons. That's all. Now you seem to be switching to reasons to believe...what? In God? I'm confused as to what you are even talking about. What's an objective belief anyways?
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
Benshapiro
Posts: 3,966
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/24/2014 6:48:11 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/24/2014 6:39:13 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 7/24/2014 6:31:46 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 7/24/2014 6:20:34 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 7/24/2014 6:19:07 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
The same reasoning you've just used could've justified belief in anything. Including fairies, ogres, and ghosts.

Are you talking to me? No it couldn't.

How do you justify an objective belief if nothing objective supports that belief? It's the same thing as believing in fairies, ogres and ghosts.

You are confusing multiple issues here.

You claimed to be offering reasons as to why the bible can't be the word of God. I offered reasons that undercut your reasons. That's all. Now you seem to be switching to reasons to believe...what? In God? I'm confused as to what you are even talking about. What's an objective belief anyways?

If the Bible is the objective (factual, non-interpretive truth) then why does it defy every shred of factual and non-interpretive evidence as shown in arguments (1, 2, and 3)?
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,927
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/24/2014 7:21:53 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/24/2014 6:48:11 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 7/24/2014 6:39:13 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 7/24/2014 6:31:46 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 7/24/2014 6:20:34 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 7/24/2014 6:19:07 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
The same reasoning you've just used could've justified belief in anything. Including fairies, ogres, and ghosts.

Are you talking to me? No it couldn't.

How do you justify an objective belief if nothing objective supports that belief? It's the same thing as believing in fairies, ogres and ghosts.

You are confusing multiple issues here.

You claimed to be offering reasons as to why the bible can't be the word of God. I offered reasons that undercut your reasons. That's all. Now you seem to be switching to reasons to believe...what? In God? I'm confused as to what you are even talking about. What's an objective belief anyways?

If the Bible is the objective (factual, non-interpretive truth) then why does it defy every shred of factual and non-interpretive evidence as shown in arguments (1, 2, and 3)?

All facts need to be interpreted. I don't even know what it means to say the bible is the objective non-interpretive truth.

And it doesn't "defy" every factual and non-interpretive evidence (again, there's no such thing in any case) as I showed in my response.
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
bornofgod
Posts: 11,322
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/24/2014 10:48:47 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/24/2014 3:49:37 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
The following is taken from http://freethought.mbdojo.com...

"Most Christians seem to think that the bible (as it is now, with its sixty-six or so books, divided into chapters and verses) has existed for thousands of years... The Protestant Church did not agree on which books should be contained in the bible until as late as 1647, at the Assembly of Westminster."

New Testament Books which are now accepted by Christians, but which were for a time rejected, are Hebrews, James, 1 Peter, 2 Peter, 2 John, 3 John, Jude, Revelation.

Books now excluded from the canon, but which are found in some of the older manuscripts of the New Testament, are Shepherd of Hermas, Epistle of Barnabas, 1 Clement, 2 Clement, Paul"s Epistle to Laodiceans, Apostolic Constitutions.

Books accepted as canonical by some Jews, and for most part by the Greek and Roman Catholic churches, but rejected by the Protestants, are Baruch, Tobit, Judith, Book of Wisdom, Song of the Three Children, History of Susanna, Bel and the Dragon, Prayer of Manasseh, Ecclesiasticus, 1 Esdras, 2 Esdras, 1 Maccabees, 2 Maccabees, 3 Maccabees, 4 Maccabees, 5 Maccabees.

The only books of the bible which are accepted as divine by all Jews and all varieties of Christians are the first five books of the Old Testament: the Pentateuch.

There are lost books of the bible, which should have been included into the canon. These books are cited by writers of the Bible, and they are: Book of the Wars of the Lord, Book of Jasher, Book of the Covenant, Book of Nathan, Book of Gad, Book of Samuel, Prophecy of Ahijah, Visions of Iddo, Acts of Uzziah, Acts of Solomon, Three Thousand Proverbs of Solomon, A Thousand and Five Songs of Solomon, Chronicles of the Kings of Judah, Chronicles of the Kings of Israel, Book of Jehu, Book of Enoch.

What we know as the "canonized" bible was not assembled in anything like it's present form until the 3rd century by a council of bishops (although it was still debated for centuries after). They chose which books should be included in the bible, which books were inspired by God, by vote, just as we might vote on a law. (Can you imagine that some books missed out on being The Word of God by one vote?) Were they any more qualified to judge which books were divine than anyone living today? Is their judgement and knowledge any better than ours?

What ever happened to the Gospels according to Thomas, Jade, James, Peter, and the Gospel of the Hebrews, of the Egyptians, of Perfection, of Judas, of Thaddeus, of the Infancy, of the Preaching of Peter, of the Shepherd of Hermas, the Epistle of Barnabas, the Pastor of Hermas, the Revelation of Peter, the Revelation of Paul, the Epistle of Clement, the Epistle of Ignatius, the Gospel of Mary, the Gospel of Nicodemus and of Marcion? They were all not considered inspired (or inspired enough). They did not get voted in. There were also the Acts of Pilate, of Andrew, of Mary, of Paul and Thecla, and many others. If the bishops at the Council of Laodicea in 365 had voted differently, millions of Christians would have believed differently. The vote of the one is the belief of all the others.

There is one important question for you to consider: why are we bound by their opinion?" /endsource

This brings up some very interesting information. (1) how could the divine word of God had been lost, (2) why did bishops ultimately get to decide which books are part of the bible and (3) if the Bible is inerrant, why do so many versions of it exist with books added and subtracted from it? Not even taking into account biblical contradictions.

The Word of God is not lost at all. It just can't be heard by unbelieving Christians who believed a book is the Word of God. Only God's chosen believers can hear the Word of God today spoken by His last saint who is writing this sentence. God's believers have called themselves atheists, Christians, Muslims, Jews, alcoholics, thieves, murderers, prostitutes, drug dealers, businessmen, before they finally heard the Truth.