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God-- just because we want one

HandsOff
Posts: 504
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3/2/2010 11:54:56 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
The one and only reason people believe in god is because they seem to want there to be one. An unknowable (and undeterminable) fate is just too much for them to handle.
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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3/2/2010 11:58:51 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
"[Religious belief] is a totalitarian belief. It is the wish to be a slave. It is the desire that there be an unalterable, unchallengeable, tyrannical authority who can convict you of thought crime while you are asleep, who can subject you - who must, indeed, subject you - to total surveillance around the clock every waking and sleeping minute of your life - I say, of your life - before you're born and, even worse and where the real fun begins, after you're dead." - Christopher Hitchens
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
GodSands
Posts: 2,843
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3/3/2010 12:15:03 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
The one and only reason why people believe in God is because they want there to be one. This is of course true in some cases. But I cannot say to all cases. If you want a God, you would want a God which will allow you to sin sexually, get drunk, play video games, watch anything you want to, curse, make rude jokes, fight when it is sufficient to, be lazy when it is sufficient to, disobey when it is sufficient to, be greedy when it is sufficient to, lie when it is sufficient, lust when it is sufficient to, curse God when it is sufficient to, be boastful when it is sufficient, be prideful when it is sufficient to, be defenceful when it is sufficient to, and generally be sinful when it is sufficient to.

Now my God does not allow these things.
mattrodstrom
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3/3/2010 5:50:46 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/3/2010 12:15:03 AM, GodSands wrote:
The one and only reason why people believe in God is because they want there to be one. This is of course true in some cases. But I cannot say to all cases. If you want a God, you would want a God which will allow you to sin sexually, get drunk, play video games, watch anything you want to, curse, make rude jokes, fight when it is sufficient to, be lazy when it is sufficient to, disobey when it is sufficient to, be greedy when it is sufficient to, lie when it is sufficient, lust when it is sufficient to, curse God when it is sufficient to, be boastful when it is sufficient, be prideful when it is sufficient to, be defenceful when it is sufficient to, and generally be sinful when it is sufficient to.

Now my God does not allow these things.

Do you think people actually want these things?

When these things are the center of your life, your life sucks...

Why? b/c they have negative consequences. Like making people hate you, and you not having a family, or contentment in what you do.

Humanity is more than just adherence to base instincts and simple desire.

We think about what is best in the long run given the totality of our cares.

We do (except for psychos of course) care for "the good" ya know.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
popculturepooka
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3/3/2010 6:07:18 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/2/2010 11:54:56 PM, HandsOff wrote:
The one and only reason people believe in god is because they seem to want there to be one. An unknowable (and undeterminable) fate is just too much for them to handle.

The one and only reason people don't believe in god is because they seem to don't want there to be one.

Don't believe me?

"In speaking of the fear of religion, I don't mean to refer to the entirely reasonable hostility toward certain established religions and religious institutions, in virtue of their objectionable moral doctrines, social policies, and political influence. Nor am I referring to the association of many religious beliefs with superstition and the acceptance of evident empirical falsehoods. I am talking about something much deeper—namely, the fear of religion itself. I speak from experience, being strongly subject to this fear myself: I want atheism to be true and am made uneasy by the fact that some of the most intelligent and wellinformed people I know are religious believers. It isn't just that I don't believe in God and, naturally, hope that I'm right in my belief. It's that I hope there is no God! I don't want there to be a God; I don't want the universe to be like that."

-- Thomas Nagel.

Or we can quit with these psuedo-psychological assessments of people who don't agree with us and get on to assessing actual arguments.
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BlessedCheesemaker
Posts: 20
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3/3/2010 6:09:37 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/3/2010 12:15:03 AM, GodSands wrote:
The one and only reason why people believe in God is because they want there to be one. This is of course true in some cases. But I cannot say to all cases. If you want a God, you would want a God which will allow you to sin sexually, get drunk, play video games, watch anything you want to, curse, make rude jokes, fight when it is sufficient to, be lazy when it is sufficient to, disobey when it is sufficient to, be greedy when it is sufficient to, lie when it is sufficient, lust when it is sufficient to, curse God when it is sufficient to, be boastful when it is sufficient, be prideful when it is sufficient to, be defenceful when it is sufficient to, and generally be sinful when it is sufficient to.

Now my God does not allow these things.

The reason people choose God's with punitive regulations is because they wish to elevate themselves above nature and above others who don't believe. The entire covenant in the Old Testament was about elevating the Jews as a 'chosen' people. That message of elevation is included in the Christian adaptation of Judaism.

People would not choose a God who would allow them to sin sexually, get drunk, play video games, watch anything you want to, curse, make rude jokes..... because it would mean that there was no cost to gaining the afterlife, religion requires participants to be more than natural, almost superhuman with restraint.

The problem of course is that we are all only natural humans, so the stipulations for gaining an elusive afterlife are impossible for all of us to achieve. So we came up with the notion of atonement. In the old testament it required the slaughter of all hosts of animals, because God loved a perfect sacrifice. In the new testament he had us slaughter his son.

So in effect we have a god that doesn't want us to play Grand Theft Auto 3, but if we break down and make a human mistake and start stealing cars and soliciting hookers in a virtual world, we still have a way to gain that afterlife, through the blood sacrifice of his only son.

In effect you don't really worship a God who doesn't allow all those things, you worship a God who doesn't like them, but who killed his son to help you anyway.
mattrodstrom
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3/3/2010 6:12:24 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/3/2010 6:07:18 AM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 3/2/2010 11:54:56 PM, HandsOff wrote:
The one and only reason people believe in god is because they seem to want there to be one. An unknowable (and undeterminable) fate is just too much for them to handle.

The one and only reason people don't believe in god is because they seem to don't want there to be one.

How bout cuz there's no reason to??
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
mattrodstrom
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3/3/2010 6:14:05 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/3/2010 6:07:18 AM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 3/2/2010 11:54:56 PM, HandsOff wrote:
The one and only reason people believe in god is because they seem to want there to be one. An unknowable (and undeterminable) fate is just too much for them to handle.

The one and only reason people don't believe in god is because they seem to don't want there to be one.

Don't believe me?

"In speaking of the fear of religion, I don't mean to refer to the entirely reasonable hostility toward certain established religions and religious institutions, in virtue of their objectionable moral doctrines, social policies, and political influence. Nor am I referring to the association of many religious beliefs with superstition and the acceptance of evident empirical falsehoods. I am talking about something much deeper—namely, the fear of religion itself. I speak from experience, being strongly subject to this fear myself: I want atheism to be true and am made uneasy by the fact that some of the most intelligent and wellinformed people I know are religious believers. It isn't just that I don't believe in God and, naturally, hope that I'm right in my belief. It's that I hope there is no God! I don't want there to be a God; I don't want the universe to be like that."

-- Thomas Nagel.

Ok so thomas nagel doesn't want there to be a God.

I do. but I have no reason to think there is.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,926
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3/3/2010 6:18:07 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/3/2010 6:14:05 AM, mattrodstrom wrote:

Ok so thomas nagel doesn't want there to be a God.

I do. but I have no reason to think there is.

Interesting. So you have no issue with a person claiming that the only reason people believe in God is because they want to but you have an issue with me saying the converse to make a point? lol lol lol

What's that I smell? Hypocrisy.
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
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BlessedCheesemaker
Posts: 20
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3/3/2010 6:18:38 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/3/2010 6:07:18 AM, popculturepooka wrote:

The one and only reason people don't believe in god is because they seem to don't want there to be one.


Actually most Atheists will admit that we would love there to be an afterlife and a benevolent God. Nagel's argument is that he didn't want to live under the oppression of the common human God's who wreck havoc in society. He doesn't mention the idea of a benevolent or ambivalent God, because in his time Abraham's God was the biggest game in town.

Most Atheists spend quite a bit of time searching for a God and then attribute his/her/its inaction to non existence. Most will also readily admit that if empirical evidence bubbled up that showed that a God existed, we would all readily accept it with open arms. The problem is that non exists, and the 'evidence' cited for an all powerful creator is always subject to faith, which is incredibly unreliable.
mattrodstrom
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3/3/2010 6:21:32 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/3/2010 6:18:07 AM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 3/3/2010 6:14:05 AM, mattrodstrom wrote:

Ok so thomas nagel doesn't want there to be a God.

I do. but I have no reason to think there is.

Interesting. So you have no issue with a person claiming that the only reason people believe in God is because they want to but you have an issue with me saying the converse to make a point? lol lol lol

What's that I smell? Hypocrisy.

how am I being a hypocrite?
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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3/3/2010 6:24:52 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
I would say in addition to his 1 and only reason, there's also indoctrination at tender ages, and people who don't think about their "beliefs"

but other than that I pretty much agree, AS I've never heard anyone give a good reason to believe.

With you I disagree. How am I being hypocritical??
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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3/3/2010 6:26:15 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/3/2010 6:24:52 AM, mattrodstrom wrote:
I would say in addition to his 1 and only reason, there's also indoctrination at tender ages, and people who don't think about their "beliefs"

but other than that I pretty much agree, AS I've never heard anyone give a good reason to believe.

Well I've heard people give reasons.... But not Good reasons...

Perhaps another reason for such belief is bad reasoning capabilities??

So yes there's more than 1 possible reason for "belief"
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
BlessedCheesemaker
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3/3/2010 6:31:15 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/3/2010 6:24:52 AM, mattrodstrom wrote:
I would say in addition to his 1 and only reason, there's also indoctrination at tender ages, and people who don't think about their "beliefs"


There is also ignorance of natural events that drives belief in God. An earthquake occurs and all those not educated in plate tectonics are left to wonder. That wonder typically turns to some angry deity distributing justice out of ignorance of what is really happening.

God was used to explain drought and flooding earthquakes and Volcanoes and especially plague. Reading the old testament is actually quite interesting, when you see the people coming up for reasons for the spread of a virus, resulting in the genocide of entire races of people. (Numbers 31)
popculturepooka
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3/3/2010 7:08:37 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/3/2010 6:24:52 AM, mattrodstrom wrote:
I would say in addition to his 1 and only reason, there's also indoctrination at tender ages, and people who don't think about their "beliefs"

but other than that I pretty much agree, AS I've never heard anyone give a good reason to believe.

With you I disagree. How am I being hypocritical??

You are a hypocrite because you endorse some inane psuedo-psychological explanation of religious belief but not for the lack of that belief.
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CrappyDebater
Posts: 334
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3/3/2010 7:29:44 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
I always notice Atheists ask for Proof or Evidence for God. Which I understand. I also would like proof positive that God exists.

What I want to know is, what exactly would they require as proof?

From what I understand, God would have to appear before each and every one of them. Every person whom ever exists, generation after generation.

Example: Lets take for instance that Jesus was actually PROOF for Gods existance.
Now, Jesus would have to continue to present himself as evidence, to everyone all over the planet... forever.... because there will ALWAYS be doubters. Jesus died, so therefore, anyone who was not able to meet him personally is going to have to go off of secondary evidence. And they of course will doubt.

next: lets say I have some material object that is Proof of God. Do you not think there would still be doubters? of course there would be.

It really only leaves one option. Again, God would have to present himself in some physical form -Jesus- or spiritual form, again and again and again forever to al generations for absolute proof.

Welcome to faith.
popculturepooka
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3/3/2010 7:44:50 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/3/2010 6:18:38 AM, BlessedCheesemaker wrote:

Most Atheists spend quite a bit of time searching for a God and then attribute his/her/its inaction to non existence. Most will also readily admit that if empirical evidence bubbled up that showed that a God existed, we would all readily accept it with open arms. The problem is that non exists, and the 'evidence' cited for an all powerful creator is always subject to faith, which is incredibly unreliable.

"Most atheists" are born in secular societies like China, I sincerely doubt all of them spend quite a bit of time searching for a God. I have personally encountered people like this.
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
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CrappyDebater
Posts: 334
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3/3/2010 8:03:00 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
Look at the options I found from one Atheist in a post from the Argument from Evil.
There are many things God could have done to increase belief in Him. For example, any of the following courses of action would increase belief in God

God could have made the Bible more plausible. He could have made it free from contradiction, factual errors, and made it contain clear and unambiguous correct prophecies and no false and ambiguous ones.
Tremendous sigh...
God could have provided people with exposure to the Bible's message by having Bibles appear in every household in the world written in a language that the occupants could read.
LOL?
God could have spoken from the Heavens in all known languages so no human could doubt His existence and His message.
Every generation, again, and again, and again, and again.

God could have sent angels disguised as human preachers to spread His word and given them the power to perform unambiguous miracles and works of wonder.
This would mean a deceitful God!!!! lol?

God could have implanted belief of God and His message in everyone's mind.
ROFL?

In recent time God could have communicated with millions of people by interrupting prime time TV programs and giving His message.
LMAO?
http://www.infidels.org...
Look at these answers! Laughable. At best.
At least I got a good kick out of them.

Can any Atheist here Please give me a good example of what God would have to do to "Prove Himself" over and over and over again to every generation so that Everyone would believe, forever?
Well other than creating the Universe. =p
tkubok
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3/3/2010 9:04:02 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/3/2010 8:03:00 AM, CrappyDebater wrote:
Tremendous sigh...
Nice explanation as to why you sighed. Are you simply trying to avoid addressing the argument?

LOL?
In other words, a worldwide miracle that would only occur to a specific religion.

Every generation, again, and again, and again, and again.
Really? i must have missed his last performance.

This would mean a deceitful God!!!! lol?
You mean, like the angels who disguised themselves to trick the Apostles during their journey?

At least I got a good kick out of them.
I bet you did, as your response to them were to simply laugh and not present a single argument as to why you laughed.

Are you crying, but trying to cover it up by pretending to laugh? If so, bravo, you fooled almost everyone. Almost.
Can any Atheist here Please give me a good example of what God would have to do to "Prove Himself" over and over and over again to every generation so that Everyone would believe, forever?
Well other than creating the Universe. =p

Sure. If he came down and said "Hi, im God, and here are the miracles that are written in the bible, and im also open for a debate with anyone who doesnt believe that i am not God, and by the way, here are the logical arguments that support my beliefs which contain no logical fallacies, as well as logical arguments which are a reply towards any potential problems asserted by theologians regarding the nature of me, or the bible, all without any fallacy or problem of any sort".

Its that easy.
CrappyDebater
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3/3/2010 9:27:09 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
Sure. If he came down and said "Hi, im God, and here are the miracles that are written in the bible, and im also open for a debate with anyone who doesnt believe that i am not God, and by the way, here are the logical arguments that support my beliefs which contain no logical fallacies, as well as logical arguments which are a reply towards any potential problems asserted by theologians regarding the nature of me, or the bible, all without any fallacy or problem of any sort".

Its that easy.

He would have to do this, billions of times. Disagree?
tkubok
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3/3/2010 9:31:33 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/3/2010 9:27:09 AM, CrappyDebater wrote:
Sure. If he came down and said "Hi, im God, and here are the miracles that are written in the bible, and im also open for a debate with anyone who doesnt believe that i am not God, and by the way, here are the logical arguments that support my beliefs which contain no logical fallacies, as well as logical arguments which are a reply towards any potential problems asserted by theologians regarding the nature of me, or the bible, all without any fallacy or problem of any sort".

Its that easy.

He would have to do this, billions of times. Disagree?

No, just a heavily populated first world country with internet access.

I mean, we live in a society where the internet alone reaches billions of people. And yes, a single, televised event with Dawkins, Dennet, Harris and Hitchens, squaring off against God himself, where God answers ALL questions and replies to ALL logical arguments against him, which would definately stump all four of them, would be good enough. And yes, it should be easy for God. He should be able to do this in a heartbeat.
CrappyDebater
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3/3/2010 9:35:54 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
He would have to do this, billions of times. Disagree?

No, just a heavily populated first world country with internet access.

I mean, we live in a society where the internet alone reaches billions of people. And yes, a single, televised event with Dawkins, Dennet, Harris and Hitchens, squaring off against God himself, where God answers ALL questions and replies to ALL logical arguments against him, which would definately stump all four of them, would be good enough. And yes, it should be easy for God. He should be able to do this in a heartbeat.

This shows how dense you are. There are still denyers of the landing on the Moon correct? NASA says it happened and it was freeking televised. Good try.
Any other ideas?
tkubok
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3/3/2010 9:42:36 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/3/2010 9:35:54 AM, CrappyDebater wrote:
He would have to do this, billions of times. Disagree?

No, just a heavily populated first world country with internet access.

I mean, we live in a society where the internet alone reaches billions of people. And yes, a single, televised event with Dawkins, Dennet, Harris and Hitchens, squaring off against God himself, where God answers ALL questions and replies to ALL logical arguments against him, which would definately stump all four of them, would be good enough. And yes, it should be easy for God. He should be able to do this in a heartbeat.

This shows how dense you are. There are still denyers of the landing on the Moon correct? NASA says it happened and it was freeking televised. Good try.
Any other ideas?

Do these people still deny that we have never landed on the moon?
CrappyDebater
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3/3/2010 9:44:21 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
Please give me a good example of what God would have to do, so that 100% of the world would believe in him, beyond a shadow of a doubt. Including every generation that is to come.
tkubok
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3/3/2010 9:47:39 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/3/2010 9:44:21 AM, CrappyDebater wrote:
Please give me a good example of what God would have to do, so that 100% of the world would believe in him, beyond a shadow of a doubt. Including every generation that is to come.

My example. It doesnt matter if God had to do this a billion times, to every single person on the planet. If he had to come down to every single person ever, and had to discuss and debate and argue and provide logical arguments, this should be easy for him.
CrappyDebater
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3/3/2010 10:24:34 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
So just to recap,
According to Tkubok..

God would have to present himself to everyone, forever, to substantiate proof he exists.

I'm going to add this to my list of quotes with Tkuboks permission
mattrodstrom
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3/3/2010 10:26:04 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/3/2010 7:08:37 AM, popculturepooka wrote:

You are a hypocrite because you endorse some inane psuedo-psychological explanation of religious belief but not for the lack of that belief.

If I thought it was inane, then yes. I happen to think it's somewhat accurate though.

Godsands basically tells me believing in God is: "just being Positive"

and you basically say: "well there no reason to say he doesn't exist"
which doesn't address the issue as to if there's good reason to say he does.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
mattrodstrom
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3/3/2010 10:29:24 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/3/2010 10:26:04 AM, mattrodstrom wrote:

Godsands basically tells me believing in God is: "just being Positive"

and you basically say: "well there no reason to say he doesn't exist"
which doesn't address the issue as to if there's good reason to say he does.

Godsand's presenting belief as being positive obviously fits, and your apparent evasion has to be accounted for somehow.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."