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Resurrection State

dee-em
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7/31/2014 7:21:31 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
Christians believe that they will be resurrected after they die. What is the thinking on what age the resurrection body will have? Will you have the body, mind, knowledge and experience you had at death?

The reason I ask is because I am not the same person I was at, say, 5 years old, or 15 years old, or even 25 years old. I'm sure I wouldn't be alone in barely recognising my earlier selves. They are not the 'me' of the present day.

What's more, many senior citizens suffer from dementia in their latter years where they can't even recognize members of their own family. They basically lose their minds. Is this the state they can expect to be resurrected in?

Some people suffer severe accidents where brain damage can result in a complete change in personality - not necessarily better or worse, just different. Again, what happens at resurrection, ie. which personality is chosen as the 'right' one?
bulproof
Posts: 25,238
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7/31/2014 7:46:22 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/31/2014 7:21:31 AM, dee-em wrote:
Christians believe that they will be resurrected after they die. What is the thinking on what age the resurrection body will have? Will you have the body, mind, knowledge and experience you had at death?

The reason I ask is because I am not the same person I was at, say, 5 years old, or 15 years old, or even 25 years old. I'm sure I wouldn't be alone in barely recognising my earlier selves. They are not the 'me' of the present day.

What's more, many senior citizens suffer from dementia in their latter years where they can't even recognize members of their own family. They basically lose their minds. Is this the state they can expect to be resurrected in?

Some people suffer severe accidents where brain damage can result in a complete change in personality - not necessarily better or worse, just different. Again, what happens at resurrection, ie. which personality is chosen as the 'right' one?

The problem with the fantasy they believe heaven is is this.

In heaven there are no tears, there is only joy and in heaven a mother who sees her child suffering eternal torture in hell will be ecstatically happy.

Can anybody with even just a modicum of intellect believe that that person could possibly be the woman who died?

A mother who could possibly be ecstatically happy watching her child suffer for eternity.
Impossible.
Heaven debunked, as fati would say.

Sorry, insert Response at the beginning.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
Illegalcombatant
Posts: 4,008
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8/1/2014 6:56:55 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/31/2014 7:21:31 AM, dee-em wrote:
Christians believe that they will be resurrected after they die. What is the thinking on what age the resurrection body will have? Will you have the body, mind, knowledge and experience you had at death?

The reason I ask is because I am not the same person I was at, say, 5 years old, or 15 years old, or even 25 years old. I'm sure I wouldn't be alone in barely recognising my earlier selves. They are not the 'me' of the present day.

What's more, many senior citizens suffer from dementia in their latter years where they can't even recognize members of their own family. They basically lose their minds. Is this the state they can expect to be resurrected in?

Some people suffer severe accidents where brain damage can result in a complete change in personality - not necessarily better or worse, just different. Again, what happens at resurrection, ie. which personality is chosen as the 'right' one?

Oh dear, if you start asking to many questions............
"Seems like another attempt to insert God into areas our knowledge has yet to penetrate. You figure God would be bigger than the gaps of our ignorance." Drafterman 19/5/12
Kerfluffer
Posts: 123
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8/1/2014 7:02:34 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/1/2014 6:43:39 AM, dee-em wrote:
Hm. Not a single Christian has a thought on this?

Of course we have thought of this. Do you people really think that we don't ponder on the same questions you do?

Of course it seems impossible. We're told that people will automatically forget all past grudges, all selfishness will be abolished, and everyone will love each other so much. This seems too contrary to human nature. But the idea is that people will be made perfect in ways we can't comprehend now.
annanicole
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8/1/2014 7:14:31 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/31/2014 7:21:31 AM, dee-em wrote:
Christians believe that they will be resurrected after they die. What is the thinking on what age the resurrection body will have? Will you have the body, mind, knowledge and experience you had at death?

That question has already been asked: "But some one will say, How are the dead raised? and with what manner of body do they come?" (I Cor 15: 35)

The answer was, "Thou foolish one, that which thou thyself sowest is not quickened except it die: and that which thou sowest, thou sowest not the body that shall be, but a bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other kind; but God giveth it a body even as it pleased him."

In other words, we can speculate about this and that, but it is not revealed.

The reason I ask is because I am not the same person I was at, say, 5 years old, or 15 years old, or even 25 years old. I'm sure I wouldn't be alone in barely recognising my earlier selves. They are not the 'me' of the present day.

Unrevealed.

What's more, many senior citizens suffer from dementia in their latter years where they can't even recognize members of their own family. They basically lose their minds. Is this the state they can expect to be resurrected in?

Some people suffer severe accidents where brain damage can result in a complete change in personality - not necessarily better or worse, just different. Again, what happens at resurrection, ie. which personality is chosen as the 'right' one?

Are you talking about personalities or bodies? Christians believe that the body you are in now will be raised, but in a changed form. Few clues are given as to the particulars about this change, and I do not know the details. Personality, however, is a different matter. You wholly retain that.

I'd look to Luke 16 for part of the answer. The rich man had died. Where was his body? Buried in the ground somewhere. But his spirit? It was still conscious, with the capacities of memory, of recognition, of reasoning. Where was his spirit? In the Hadean realm. In fact, he said, "I have five brothers." Where were they? Back down on the earth, still alive. At the resurrection, his spirit will be reunited with his body, which results in re-animation of the body. But the body is changed ... somehow. The details of that change are unrevealed.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
dee-em
Posts: 6,473
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8/1/2014 7:45:52 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/1/2014 7:02:34 AM, Kerfluffer wrote:

Of course it seems impossible. We're told that people will automatically forget all past grudges, all selfishness will be abolished, and everyone will love each other so much. This seems too contrary to human nature. But the idea is that people will be made perfect in ways we can't comprehend now.

Doesn't it concern you that if you are 'made perfect' then it is no longer 'you'?

It's interesting that you can accept something as being true when you admit you can't comprehend it.
Kerfluffer
Posts: 123
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8/1/2014 7:56:19 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/1/2014 7:45:52 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 8/1/2014 7:02:34 AM, Kerfluffer wrote:

Of course it seems impossible. We're told that people will automatically forget all past grudges, all selfishness will be abolished, and everyone will love each other so much. This seems too contrary to human nature. But the idea is that people will be made perfect in ways we can't comprehend now.

Doesn't it concern you that if you are 'made perfect' then it is no longer 'you'?

It's interesting that you can accept something as being true when you admit you can't comprehend it.
Do you consider yourself to be a different person than you were as a child?

Also, not being able to fully comprehend something does not mean that it's implausible.
dee-em
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8/1/2014 8:06:51 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/1/2014 7:14:31 AM, annanicole wrote:

In other words, we can speculate about this and that, but it is not revealed.

Since the Bible is allegedly the word of God, you would have to conclude that it was either unimportant (which would be surprising) or it was a deliberate omission. I wonder why Paul/Saul wasn't told.

Of course, from the atheist standpoint where the Bible is made up stuff, either these difficult questions weren't anticipated or they were considered too hard to address.

Are you talking about personalities or bodies?

Both. I am not much concerned with retaining my body, but my personality and experiences are what I consider to be 'me'.

Christians believe that the body you are in now will be raised, but in a changed form. Few clues are given as to the particulars about this change, and I do not know the details. Personality, however, is a different matter. You wholly retain that.

Yes, but the question was, which one?

I guess an ancillary question would be, how is your personality captured (at whatever stage in your life). Can you propose some mechanism by which your brain/mind is downloaded?
dee-em
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8/1/2014 8:11:33 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/1/2014 7:56:19 AM, Kerfluffer wrote:

Do you consider yourself to be a different person than you were as a child?

Yes, as I said in the OP. Hence my question about what version of you gets resurrected.

Also, not being able to fully comprehend something does not mean that it's implausible.

No, but it must introduce a hint of skepticism, surely?
annanicole
Posts: 19,787
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8/1/2014 8:16:31 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/1/2014 8:06:51 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 8/1/2014 7:14:31 AM, annanicole wrote:

In other words, we can speculate about this and that, but it is not revealed.

Since the Bible is allegedly the word of God, you would have to conclude that it was either unimportant (which would be surprising) or it was a deliberate omission. I wonder why Paul/Saul wasn't told.

It's #1. It's of no importance for us to know.

Of course, from the atheist standpoint where the Bible is made up stuff, either these difficult questions weren't anticipated or they were considered too hard to address.

The people in 1 Corinthians who asked the question were not atheists.

Are you talking about personalities or bodies?

Both. I am not much concerned with retaining my body, but my personality and experiences are what I consider to be 'me'.

Christians believe that the body you are in now will be raised, but in a changed form. Few clues are given as to the particulars about this change, and I do not know the details. Personality, however, is a different matter. You wholly retain that.

Yes, but the question was, which one?

Which one? LOL How many personalities do you have?

I guess an ancillary question would be, how is your personality captured (at whatever stage in your life). Can you propose some mechanism by which your brain/mind is downloaded?

You retain all of the memories of events in your life, whether you died with Alzheimers or not.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
irreverent_god
Posts: 1,378
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8/1/2014 8:39:48 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/1/2014 7:14:31 AM, annanicole wrote:
At 7/31/2014 7:21:31 AM, dee-em wrote:
Christians believe that they will be resurrected after they die. What is the thinking on what age the resurrection body will have? Will you have the body, mind, knowledge and experience you had at death?

That question has already been asked: "But some one will say, How are the dead raised? and with what manner of body do they come?" (I Cor 15: 35)

The answer was, "Thou foolish one, that which thou thyself sowest is not quickened except it die: and that which thou sowest, thou sowest not the body that shall be, but a bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other kind; but God giveth it a body even as it pleased him."

In other words, we can speculate about this and that, but it is not revealed.

The reason I ask is because I am not the same person I was at, say, 5 years old, or 15 years old, or even 25 years old. I'm sure I wouldn't be alone in barely recognising my earlier selves. They are not the 'me' of the present day.

Unrevealed.

What's more, many senior citizens suffer from dementia in their latter years where they can't even recognize members of their own family. They basically lose their minds. Is this the state they can expect to be resurrected in?

Some people suffer severe accidents where brain damage can result in a complete change in personality - not necessarily better or worse, just different. Again, what happens at resurrection, ie. which personality is chosen as the 'right' one?

Are you talking about personalities or bodies? Christians believe that the body you are in now will be raised, but in a changed form. Few clues are given as to the particulars about this change, and I do not know the details. Personality, however, is a different matter. You wholly retain that.

I'd look to Luke 16 for part of the answer. The rich man had died. Where was his body? Buried in the ground somewhere. But his spirit? It was still conscious, with the capacities of memory, of recognition, of reasoning. Where was his spirit? In the Hadean realm. In fact, he said, "I have five brothers." Where were they? Back down on the earth, still alive. At the resurrection, his spirit will be reunited with his body, which results in re-animation of the body. But the body is changed ... somehow. The details of that change are unrevealed.

So, apparently, even the jeebus was evasive with questions that were too direct?
Logic and Reason are the precursor to Justice.
Faith and zealotry are the precursor to Folly.
dee-em
Posts: 6,473
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8/1/2014 8:43:55 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/1/2014 8:16:31 AM, annanicole wrote:

It's #1. It's of no importance for us to know.

You just have to love Xian certainty. If it's in their book they'll argue black and blue about what it all means, even amongst themselves. If it's not in their book then it's just unimportant. Move along.

The people in 1 Corinthians who asked the question were not atheists.

Thanks for stating the obvious, but it's irrelevant to the point I was making.

Which one? LOL How many personalities do you have?

Did you even read the OP? This part of the conversation related to personality changes as a result of brain damage.

You retain all of the memories of events in your life, whether you died with Alzheimers or not.

So, what is the mechanism by which these memories are downloaded when, at death, the brain they resided in has lost them due to Alzheimer's?
Kerfluffer
Posts: 123
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8/1/2014 10:07:59 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/1/2014 8:11:33 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 8/1/2014 7:56:19 AM, Kerfluffer wrote:

Do you consider yourself to be a different person than you were as a child?

Yes, as I said in the OP. Hence my question about what version of you gets resurrected.
In that definition of what's "you" or "not you", it's a new person. But no, it doesn't bother me any more as knowing that I was, physically speaking, a completely different person two years ago.

Also, not being able to fully comprehend something does not mean that it's implausible.

No, but it must introduce a hint of skepticism, surely?
That's not what I was getting at. I cannot fully comprehend how it will be, just like a man born blind cannot comprehend how it is to see, or a man born deaf cannot comprehend how it is to hear. We're told a lot about it, and Anna has already provided a segment from the New Testament. Here's another:

1 Corinthians 13:8-12, ESV
8 Love never ends. As for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10 but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away. 11 When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I gave up childish ways. 12 For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known.
annanicole
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8/1/2014 11:10:52 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/1/2014 8:43:55 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 8/1/2014 8:16:31 AM, annanicole wrote:

It's #1. It's of no importance for us to know.

You just have to love Xian certainty. If it's in their book they'll argue black and blue about what it all means, even amongst themselves. If it's not in their book then it's just unimportant. Move along.

Yes, it is unimportant. I told you that the question was asked in Corinthians, and already answered.

The people in 1 Corinthians who asked the question were not atheists.

Thanks for stating the obvious, but it's irrelevant to the point I was making.

What is your point? That you don't like it when the Bible does not reveal something? Ummmm .... ok.

Which one? LOL How many personalities do you have?

Did you even read the OP? This part of the conversation related to personality changes as a result of brain damage.

You retain all of the memories of events in your life, whether you died with Alzheimers or not.

So, what is the mechanism by which these memories are downloaded when, at death, the brain they resided in has lost them due to Alzheimer's?

Again, the Bible does not say. There are hundreds of details that go unstated and unrevealed, and if they were, someone could always manufacture another question.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
annanicole
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8/1/2014 11:15:10 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/1/2014 8:39:48 AM, irreverent_god wrote:
At 8/1/2014 7:14:31 AM, annanicole wrote:
At 7/31/2014 7:21:31 AM, dee-em wrote:
Christians believe that they will be resurrected after they die. What is the thinking on what age the resurrection body will have? Will you have the body, mind, knowledge and experience you had at death?

That question has already been asked: "But some one will say, How are the dead raised? and with what manner of body do they come?" (I Cor 15: 35)

The answer was, "Thou foolish one, that which thou thyself sowest is not quickened except it die: and that which thou sowest, thou sowest not the body that shall be, but a bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other kind; but God giveth it a body even as it pleased him."

In other words, we can speculate about this and that, but it is not revealed.

The reason I ask is because I am not the same person I was at, say, 5 years old, or 15 years old, or even 25 years old. I'm sure I wouldn't be alone in barely recognising my earlier selves. They are not the 'me' of the present day.

Unrevealed.

What's more, many senior citizens suffer from dementia in their latter years where they can't even recognize members of their own family. They basically lose their minds. Is this the state they can expect to be resurrected in?

Some people suffer severe accidents where brain damage can result in a complete change in personality - not necessarily better or worse, just different. Again, what happens at resurrection, ie. which personality is chosen as the 'right' one?

Are you talking about personalities or bodies? Christians believe that the body you are in now will be raised, but in a changed form. Few clues are given as to the particulars about this change, and I do not know the details. Personality, however, is a different matter. You wholly retain that.

I'd look to Luke 16 for part of the answer. The rich man had died. Where was his body? Buried in the ground somewhere. But his spirit? It was still conscious, with the capacities of memory, of recognition, of reasoning. Where was his spirit? In the Hadean realm. In fact, he said, "I have five brothers." Where were they? Back down on the earth, still alive. At the resurrection, his spirit will be reunited with his body, which results in re-animation of the body. But the body is changed ... somehow. The details of that change are unrevealed.

So, apparently, even the jeebus was evasive with questions that were too direct?

Yes, it's the main similarity between Jesus and your buddy Beastt, only Jesus sometimes answered with a hard-to-understand parable, whereas Beastt just acts as if he missed the post and never answers at all.

You, on the other hand, just say whatever suits you. You've even told us that Adolph Hitler was a Christian from 1939 to 1945, knowing that the vast majority of historians say otherwise. Why, they even argue as to the extent of his disdain for Christianity.

By the way, to exactly which "question" are you referring when you said Jesus was evasive?
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
dee-em
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8/2/2014 7:30:13 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/1/2014 10:07:59 AM, Kerfluffer wrote:

In that definition of what's "you" or "not you", it's a new person. But no, it doesn't bother me any more as knowing that I was, physically speaking, a completely different person two years ago.

There's a difference. It's a gradual transition from the 'you' of two years ago to now. You were fully aware as the changes occurred, so a link between those two versions exists. When you are resurrected (assuming that happens) it will be an instantaneous change to a supposedly 'perfect' state. That new being will maybe have all of your memories, but I cannot see how he can be you in any other sense. Perfection means he will not have your fears, phobias, desires, foibles, aversions and so on. Such a being would be totally alien in nature to the Earthly you.

Incidentally, I had a new thought. If we are each remade as perfect in heaven, then wouldn't we all be identical? I mean, there can only be one perfect, right?


That's not what I was getting at. I cannot fully comprehend how it will be, just like a man born blind cannot comprehend how it is to see, or a man born deaf cannot comprehend how it is to hear.

I thought we were discussing how we could accept something as true if we couldn't comprehend that something. That requires a leap of faith. Your answer doesn't help since you are assuming your conclusion.
dee-em
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8/2/2014 7:41:18 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/1/2014 11:10:52 AM, annanicole wrote:
<snip>

You're rather boring, Anna. You don't seem to be able to have one original thought. I have a mental image of you lugging a Bible around everywhere you go with the pages dog-eared to delineate the NT. If a new situation arises in your life which you can't handle, out comes the holy book and a frantic search for guidance. I guess my pesky questions will remain unanswered. Thank you anyway.
annanicole
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8/2/2014 10:42:37 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/2/2014 7:41:18 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 8/1/2014 11:10:52 AM, annanicole wrote:
<snip>

You're rather boring, Anna. You don't seem to be able to have one original thought.

Then why don't you answer your own question - and do so with an original answer.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
sovereigngracereigns
Posts: 585
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8/2/2014 11:48:31 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/1/2014 7:14:31 AM, annanicole wrote:
At 7/31/2014 7:21:31 AM, dee-em wrote:
Christians believe that they will be resurrected after they die. What is the thinking on what age the resurrection body will have? Will you have the body, mind, knowledge and experience you had at death?

That question has already been asked: "But some one will say, How are the dead raised? and with what manner of body do they come?" (I Cor 15: 35)

The answer was, "Thou foolish one, that which thou thyself sowest is not quickened except it die: and that which thou sowest, thou sowest not the body that shall be, but a bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other kind; but God giveth it a body even as it pleased him."

In other words, we can speculate about this and that, but it is not revealed.

The reason I ask is because I am not the same person I was at, say, 5 years old, or 15 years old, or even 25 years old. I'm sure I wouldn't be alone in barely recognising my earlier selves. They are not the 'me' of the present day.

Unrevealed.

What's more, many senior citizens suffer from dementia in their latter years where they can't even recognize members of their own family. They basically lose their minds. Is this the state they can expect to be resurrected in?

Some people suffer severe accidents where brain damage can result in a complete change in personality - not necessarily better or worse, just different. Again, what happens at resurrection, ie. which personality is chosen as the 'right' one?

Are you talking about personalities or bodies? Christians believe that the body you are in now will be raised, but in a changed form. Few clues are given as to the particulars about this change, and I do not know the details. Personality, however, is a different matter. You wholly retain that.

I'd look to Luke 16 for part of the answer. The rich man had died. Where was his body? Buried in the ground somewhere. But his spirit? It was still conscious, with the capacities of memory, of recognition, of reasoning. Where was his spirit? In the Hadean realm. In fact, he said, "I have five brothers." Where were they? Back down on the earth, still alive. At the resurrection, his spirit will be reunited with his body, which results in re-animation of the body. But the body is changed ... somehow. The details of that change are unrevealed.

Good answer, Anna.

Like all false prophets, you occasionally get things right.
annanicole
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8/2/2014 1:27:13 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/2/2014 11:48:31 AM, sovereigngracereigns wrote:
At 8/1/2014 7:14:31 AM, annanicole wrote:
At 7/31/2014 7:21:31 AM, dee-em wrote:
Christians believe that they will be resurrected after they die. What is the thinking on what age the resurrection body will have? Will you have the body, mind, knowledge and experience you had at death?

That question has already been asked: "But some one will say, How are the dead raised? and with what manner of body do they come?" (I Cor 15: 35)

The answer was, "Thou foolish one, that which thou thyself sowest is not quickened except it die: and that which thou sowest, thou sowest not the body that shall be, but a bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other kind; but God giveth it a body even as it pleased him."

In other words, we can speculate about this and that, but it is not revealed.

The reason I ask is because I am not the same person I was at, say, 5 years old, or 15 years old, or even 25 years old. I'm sure I wouldn't be alone in barely recognising my earlier selves. They are not the 'me' of the present day.

Unrevealed.

What's more, many senior citizens suffer from dementia in their latter years where they can't even recognize members of their own family. They basically lose their minds. Is this the state they can expect to be resurrected in?

Some people suffer severe accidents where brain damage can result in a complete change in personality - not necessarily better or worse, just different. Again, what happens at resurrection, ie. which personality is chosen as the 'right' one?

Are you talking about personalities or bodies? Christians believe that the body you are in now will be raised, but in a changed form. Few clues are given as to the particulars about this change, and I do not know the details. Personality, however, is a different matter. You wholly retain that.

I'd look to Luke 16 for part of the answer. The rich man had died. Where was his body? Buried in the ground somewhere. But his spirit? It was still conscious, with the capacities of memory, of recognition, of reasoning. Where was his spirit? In the Hadean realm. In fact, he said, "I have five brothers." Where were they? Back down on the earth, still alive. At the resurrection, his spirit will be reunited with his body, which results in re-animation of the body. But the body is changed ... somehow. The details of that change are unrevealed.

Good answer, Anna.

Like all false prophets, you occasionally get things right.

.... as I wish you would. There's no point at all in you citing the various theories of men. I know what those are.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."