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Why should God prove himself to you?

sovereigngracereigns
Posts: 585
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8/2/2014 1:05:00 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
Atheists often demand proof that God exists.
But why should God prove himself to anyone?

When a king issues a decree, he sends MESSENGERS to tell the people.
He doesn't personally address each member of the kingdom!

And God is not only a king, but the supreme controller of the universe.
WHY ON EARTH should he prove himself to you?

If God sends MESSENGERS to faithfully RELAY his MESSAGE, then it's YOUR FAULT if you IGNORE the MESSAGE!

It's NOT the FAULT of the MESSENGERS, NOR is it GOD'S FAULT!
It's YOUR FAULT, and you'll be JUSTLY CONDEMNED.

And stop blaming Christians for their lack of evidence!
God sends them as MESSENGERS, not SALESMEN and LAWYERS!

If you think you're so incredibly valuable that God OWES you ANYTHING but WRATH, I've got news for you, you're NOTHING to God.

The Word of God says:

"Behold, the nations are as a drop in a bucket,
And are counted as the small dust on the scales;

Look, He lifts up the isles as a very little thing.

And Lebanon is not sufficient to burn,
Nor its beasts sufficient for a burnt offering.

All nations before Him are as nothing,
And they are counted by Him less than nothing and worthless.
"
(Isaiah 40:15-17)

You see,
God doesn't NEED you. He's fine by himself.
And unless you're IN CHRIST, God doesn't ACCEPT you or LOVE you.

ONLY IN CHRIST, through FAITH in the LORD JESUS CHRIST, can a SINNER be ACCEPTED by God.

OUTSIDE of CHRIST, God HATES you, and his WRATH is AGAINST YOU.
You MUST have his SON to be SAVED.

"He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."(John 3:36)

You must come like a beggar, with nothing to offer God, or you won't receive mercy from God.
Those who DEMAND proof from God will receive NOTHING from him.
But all those who ASK will receive!

Christ said:
"Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you.
For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened."
(Matthew 7:7-8)
intellectuallyprimitive
Posts: 1,000
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8/2/2014 2:35:32 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/2/2014 1:05:00 AM, sovereigngracereigns wrote:
Atheists often demand proof that God exists.
But why should God prove himself to anyone?

When a king issues a decree, he sends MESSENGERS to tell the people.
He doesn't personally address each member of the kingdom!

And God is not only a king, but the supreme controller of the universe.
WHY ON EARTH should he prove himself to you?

If God sends MESSENGERS to faithfully RELAY his MESSAGE, then it's YOUR FAULT if you IGNORE the MESSAGE!

It's NOT the FAULT of the MESSENGERS, NOR is it GOD'S FAULT!
It's YOUR FAULT, and you'll be JUSTLY CONDEMNED.

And stop blaming Christians for their lack of evidence!
God sends them as MESSENGERS, not SALESMEN and LAWYERS!

If you think you're so incredibly valuable that God OWES you ANYTHING but WRATH, I've got news for you, you're NOTHING to God.

The Word of God says:

"Behold, the nations are as a drop in a bucket,
And are counted as the small dust on the scales;

Look, He lifts up the isles as a very little thing.

And Lebanon is not sufficient to burn,
Nor its beasts sufficient for a burnt offering.

All nations before Him are as nothing,
And they are counted by Him less than nothing and worthless.
"
(Isaiah 40:15-17)

You see,
God doesn't NEED you. He's fine by himself.
And unless you're IN CHRIST, God doesn't ACCEPT you or LOVE you.

ONLY IN CHRIST, through FAITH in the LORD JESUS CHRIST, can a SINNER be ACCEPTED by God.

OUTSIDE of CHRIST, God HATES you, and his WRATH is AGAINST YOU.
You MUST have his SON to be SAVED.

"He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."(John 3:36)

You must come like a beggar, with nothing to offer God, or you won't receive mercy from God.
Those who DEMAND proof from God will receive NOTHING from him.
But all those who ASK will receive!

Christ said:
"Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you.
For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened."
(Matthew 7:7-8)

Next
sovereigngracereigns
Posts: 585
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8/2/2014 2:48:55 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/2/2014 2:35:32 AM, intellectuallyprimitive wrote:
At 8/2/2014 1:05:00 AM, sovereigngracereigns wrote:
Atheists often demand proof that God exists.
But why should God prove himself to anyone?

When a king issues a decree, he sends MESSENGERS to tell the people.
He doesn't personally address each member of the kingdom!

And God is not only a king, but the supreme controller of the universe.
WHY ON EARTH should he prove himself to you?

If God sends MESSENGERS to faithfully RELAY his MESSAGE, then it's YOUR FAULT if you IGNORE the MESSAGE!

It's NOT the FAULT of the MESSENGERS, NOR is it GOD'S FAULT!
It's YOUR FAULT, and you'll be JUSTLY CONDEMNED.

And stop blaming Christians for their lack of evidence!
God sends them as MESSENGERS, not SALESMEN and LAWYERS!

If you think you're so incredibly valuable that God OWES you ANYTHING but WRATH, I've got news for you, you're NOTHING to God.

The Word of God says:

"Behold, the nations are as a drop in a bucket,
And are counted as the small dust on the scales;

Look, He lifts up the isles as a very little thing.

And Lebanon is not sufficient to burn,
Nor its beasts sufficient for a burnt offering.

All nations before Him are as nothing,
And they are counted by Him less than nothing and worthless.
"
(Isaiah 40:15-17)

You see,
God doesn't NEED you. He's fine by himself.
And unless you're IN CHRIST, God doesn't ACCEPT you or LOVE you.

ONLY IN CHRIST, through FAITH in the LORD JESUS CHRIST, can a SINNER be ACCEPTED by God.

OUTSIDE of CHRIST, God HATES you, and his WRATH is AGAINST YOU.
You MUST have his SON to be SAVED.

"He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."(John 3:36)

You must come like a beggar, with nothing to offer God, or you won't receive mercy from God.
Those who DEMAND proof from God will receive NOTHING from him.
But all those who ASK will receive!

Christ said:
"Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you.
For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened."
(Matthew 7:7-8)

Next

Exactly.

You've got nothing to say.

You're guilty and you know it. But you just can't admit it.

NEXT!
intellectuallyprimitive
Posts: 1,000
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8/2/2014 2:56:11 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/2/2014 2:48:55 AM, sovereigngracereigns wrote:
At 8/2/2014 2:35:32 AM, intellectuallyprimitive wrote:
At 8/2/2014 1:05:00 AM, sovereigngracereigns wrote:
Atheists often demand proof that God exists.
But why should God prove himself to anyone?

When a king issues a decree, he sends MESSENGERS to tell the people.
He doesn't personally address each member of the kingdom!

And God is not only a king, but the supreme controller of the universe.
WHY ON EARTH should he prove himself to you?

If God sends MESSENGERS to faithfully RELAY his MESSAGE, then it's YOUR FAULT if you IGNORE the MESSAGE!

It's NOT the FAULT of the MESSENGERS, NOR is it GOD'S FAULT!
It's YOUR FAULT, and you'll be JUSTLY CONDEMNED.

And stop blaming Christians for their lack of evidence!
God sends them as MESSENGERS, not SALESMEN and LAWYERS!

If you think you're so incredibly valuable that God OWES you ANYTHING but WRATH, I've got news for you, you're NOTHING to God.

The Word of God says:

"Behold, the nations are as a drop in a bucket,
And are counted as the small dust on the scales;

Look, He lifts up the isles as a very little thing.

And Lebanon is not sufficient to burn,
Nor its beasts sufficient for a burnt offering.

All nations before Him are as nothing,
And they are counted by Him less than nothing and worthless.
"
(Isaiah 40:15-17)

You see,
God doesn't NEED you. He's fine by himself.
And unless you're IN CHRIST, God doesn't ACCEPT you or LOVE you.

ONLY IN CHRIST, through FAITH in the LORD JESUS CHRIST, can a SINNER be ACCEPTED by God.

OUTSIDE of CHRIST, God HATES you, and his WRATH is AGAINST YOU.
You MUST have his SON to be SAVED.

"He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."(John 3:36)

You must come like a beggar, with nothing to offer God, or you won't receive mercy from God.
Those who DEMAND proof from God will receive NOTHING from him.
But all those who ASK will receive!

Christ said:
"Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you.
For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened."
(Matthew 7:7-8)

Next

Exactly.

You've got nothing to say.

You're guilty and you know it. But you just can't admit it.

NEXT!

I am guilty for a multitude of actions. The difference between me and you is that I hold myself accountable and responsible for my actions, and you repent to god to asking for forgiveness. Are you not aware that you alone are responsible for your actions?
Illegalcombatant
Posts: 4,008
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8/2/2014 3:29:30 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
Because God what ever you envision it to be if exists allow anyone and everyone to make claims on it's behalf.

What gives you the right to sit their telling others what God wants under threat of hell fire ?
"Seems like another attempt to insert God into areas our knowledge has yet to penetrate. You figure God would be bigger than the gaps of our ignorance." Drafterman 19/5/12
lifemeansevolutionisgood
Posts: 551
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8/2/2014 9:59:22 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/2/2014 1:05:00 AM, sovereigngracereigns wrote:
Atheists often demand proof that God exists.
But why should God prove himself to anyone?

Because it would be irrational and stupid to believe in a god without evidence.

When a king issues a decree, he sends MESSENGERS to tell the people.
He doesn't personally address each member of the kingdom!

No, but there is still evidence that the kind issued the decree. The messengers actually had to bring a SIGNED document in order to spread it.

And God is not only a king, but the supreme controller of the universe.
WHY ON EARTH should he prove himself to you?

How do we know that is what a god is unless there is evidence for such? It is irrational to believe in a god unless you have evidence.

If God sends MESSENGERS to faithfully RELAY his MESSAGE, then it's YOUR FAULT if you IGNORE the MESSAGE!

If there was evidence that the messengers were telling the truth (which could only exist as evidence for god), then your point is valid. I could say I am a messenger for the three goddesses and start preaching, and you would HAVE to take me as being just as credible as those "messengers" from any other religion. Why? Because there is no evidence that any messenger of god told the truth.

It's NOT the FAULT of the MESSENGERS, NOR is it GOD'S FAULT!
It's YOUR FAULT, and you'll be JUSTLY CONDEMNED.

Actually, it is god's fault (if the god is real). It cannot be the fault of the people for using rational thought. If god wants to punish people for actually using their brain, then it still turns it to being god's fault.

And stop blaming Christians for their lack of evidence!
God sends them as MESSENGERS, not SALESMEN and LAWYERS!

Oh, you mean the "messengers" in one very historically unreliable books of all time? There is no reason to believe in the bile, especially when much of the bible has been disproven.

If you think you're so incredibly valuable that God OWES you ANYTHING but WRATH, I've got news for you, you're NOTHING to God.

Evidence for your god please. If you cannot provide any, then you are just making a completely irrational comment.
You CANNOT know what your god think, believes, etc. unless you have evidence of that, which would only exist if there is evidence for your god.

The Word of God says:

Evidence that it is god's word please.


"Behold, the nations are as a drop in a bucket,
And are counted as the small dust on the scales;

Look, He lifts up the isles as a very little thing.

And Lebanon is not sufficient to burn,
Nor its beasts sufficient for a burnt offering.

All nations before Him are as nothing,
And they are counted by Him less than nothing and worthless.
"
(Isaiah 40:15-17)

Those are the words of a man in a historically unreliable book. Get a more reliable source.

You see,
God doesn't NEED you. He's fine by himself.

Still lacking evidence.

And unless you're IN CHRIST, God doesn't ACCEPT you or LOVE you.

Still lacking evidence. Also, one of my friends is writing a book called "The Case Against Christ", which shows why the evidence for Jesus is not good evidence, and it is very interesting. Him letting me read parts of it has actually made me have to look into the documents some more. So, how about evidence for Jesus?

ONLY IN CHRIST, through FAITH in the LORD JESUS CHRIST, can a SINNER be ACCEPTED by God.

Lacking any evidence for this.

OUTSIDE of CHRIST, God HATES you, and his WRATH is AGAINST YOU.
You MUST have his SON to be SAVED.

Still lacking evidence.

"He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."(John 3:36)

Historically unreliable source, lacking any evidence.

You must come like a beggar, with nothing to offer God, or you won't receive mercy from God.

Lacking evidence.

Those who DEMAND proof from God will receive NOTHING from him.
But all those who ASK will receive!

I used to be a Christian, I asked, received nothing. Believing without evidence is completely irrational.

Christ said:

Evidence that he said this please? Evidence for his existence please (I used to believe he existed, now I am questioning it. Kinda on the fence).

"Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you.
For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened."
(Matthew 7:7-8)

Historically unreliable book. You lack any evidence. You have only shown irrationality.
sovereigngracereigns
Posts: 585
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8/2/2014 10:53:49 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/2/2014 2:56:11 AM, intellectuallyprimitive wrote:
At 8/2/2014 2:48:55 AM, sovereigngracereigns wrote:
At 8/2/2014 2:35:32 AM, intellectuallyprimitive wrote:
At 8/2/2014 1:05:00 AM, sovereigngracereigns wrote:
Atheists often demand proof that God exists.
But why should God prove himself to anyone?

When a king issues a decree, he sends MESSENGERS to tell the people.
He doesn't personally address each member of the kingdom!

And God is not only a king, but the supreme controller of the universe.
WHY ON EARTH should he prove himself to you?

If God sends MESSENGERS to faithfully RELAY his MESSAGE, then it's YOUR FAULT if you IGNORE the MESSAGE!

It's NOT the FAULT of the MESSENGERS, NOR is it GOD'S FAULT!
It's YOUR FAULT, and you'll be JUSTLY CONDEMNED.

And stop blaming Christians for their lack of evidence!
God sends them as MESSENGERS, not SALESMEN and LAWYERS!

If you think you're so incredibly valuable that God OWES you ANYTHING but WRATH, I've got news for you, you're NOTHING to God.

The Word of God says:

"Behold, the nations are as a drop in a bucket,
And are counted as the small dust on the scales;

Look, He lifts up the isles as a very little thing.

And Lebanon is not sufficient to burn,
Nor its beasts sufficient for a burnt offering.

All nations before Him are as nothing,
And they are counted by Him less than nothing and worthless.
"
(Isaiah 40:15-17)

You see,
God doesn't NEED you. He's fine by himself.
And unless you're IN CHRIST, God doesn't ACCEPT you or LOVE you.

ONLY IN CHRIST, through FAITH in the LORD JESUS CHRIST, can a SINNER be ACCEPTED by God.

OUTSIDE of CHRIST, God HATES you, and his WRATH is AGAINST YOU.
You MUST have his SON to be SAVED.

"He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."(John 3:36)

You must come like a beggar, with nothing to offer God, or you won't receive mercy from God.
Those who DEMAND proof from God will receive NOTHING from him.
But all those who ASK will receive!

Christ said:
"Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you.
For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened."
(Matthew 7:7-8)

Next

Exactly.

You've got nothing to say.

You're guilty and you know it. But you just can't admit it.

NEXT!

I am guilty for a multitude of actions. The difference between me and you is that I hold myself accountable and responsible for my actions, and you repent to god to asking for forgiveness. Are you not aware that you alone are responsible for your actions?

That makes no sense.

Of course I believe I'm responsible for my actions.
I believe I'm a guilty sinner.

You, on the other hand, deny you have any guilt.
And yet you claim that you take responsibility?

Where are we? In Alice's "Wonderland", where everything is completely backwards?
annanicole
Posts: 19,791
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8/2/2014 11:02:34 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/2/2014 1:05:00 AM, sovereigngracereigns wrote:
Atheists often demand proof that God exists.
But why should God prove himself to anyone?

When a king issues a decree, he sends MESSENGERS to tell the people.
He doesn't personally address each member of the kingdom!

And God is not only a king, but the supreme controller of the universe.
WHY ON EARTH should he prove himself to you?

If God sends MESSENGERS to faithfully RELAY his MESSAGE, then it's YOUR FAULT if you IGNORE the MESSAGE!

It's NOT the FAULT of the MESSENGERS, NOR is it GOD'S FAULT!
It's YOUR FAULT, and you'll be JUSTLY CONDEMNED.

And stop blaming Christians for their lack of evidence!
God sends them as MESSENGERS, not SALESMEN and LAWYERS!

If you think you're so incredibly valuable that God OWES you ANYTHING but WRATH, I've got news for you, you're NOTHING to God.

The Word of God says:

"Behold, the nations are as a drop in a bucket,
And are counted as the small dust on the scales;

Look, He lifts up the isles as a very little thing.

And Lebanon is not sufficient to burn,
Nor its beasts sufficient for a burnt offering.

All nations before Him are as nothing,
And they are counted by Him less than nothing and worthless.
"
(Isaiah 40:15-17)

You see,
God doesn't NEED you. He's fine by himself.
And unless you're IN CHRIST, God doesn't ACCEPT you or LOVE you.

ONLY IN CHRIST, through FAITH in the LORD JESUS CHRIST, can a SINNER be ACCEPTED by God.

I'm afraid there are only two places at which we are told how to get into Christ:

" For ye are all sons of God, through faith, in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as were baptized into Christ did put on Christ." (Gal 3: 26-27)

"God forbid. We who died to sin, how shall we any longer live therein? Or are ye ignorant that all we who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were buried therefore with him through baptism unto death: that like as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we also might walk in newness of life." (Rom 6: 2-4)
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
sovereigngracereigns
Posts: 585
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8/2/2014 11:12:38 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/2/2014 11:02:34 AM, annanicole wrote:
At 8/2/2014 1:05:00 AM, sovereigngracereigns wrote:
Atheists often demand proof that God exists.
But why should God prove himself to anyone?

When a king issues a decree, he sends MESSENGERS to tell the people.
He doesn't personally address each member of the kingdom!

And God is not only a king, but the supreme controller of the universe.
WHY ON EARTH should he prove himself to you?

If God sends MESSENGERS to faithfully RELAY his MESSAGE, then it's YOUR FAULT if you IGNORE the MESSAGE!

It's NOT the FAULT of the MESSENGERS, NOR is it GOD'S FAULT!
It's YOUR FAULT, and you'll be JUSTLY CONDEMNED.

And stop blaming Christians for their lack of evidence!
God sends them as MESSENGERS, not SALESMEN and LAWYERS!

If you think you're so incredibly valuable that God OWES you ANYTHING but WRATH, I've got news for you, you're NOTHING to God.

The Word of God says:

"Behold, the nations are as a drop in a bucket,
And are counted as the small dust on the scales;

Look, He lifts up the isles as a very little thing.

And Lebanon is not sufficient to burn,
Nor its beasts sufficient for a burnt offering.

All nations before Him are as nothing,
And they are counted by Him less than nothing and worthless.
"
(Isaiah 40:15-17)

You see,
God doesn't NEED you. He's fine by himself.
And unless you're IN CHRIST, God doesn't ACCEPT you or LOVE you.

ONLY IN CHRIST, through FAITH in the LORD JESUS CHRIST, can a SINNER be ACCEPTED by God.

I'm afraid there are only two places at which we are told how to get into Christ:

" For ye are all sons of God, through faith, in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as were baptized into Christ did put on Christ." (Gal 3: 26-27)

"God forbid. We who died to sin, how shall we any longer live therein? Or are ye ignorant that all we who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were buried therefore with him through baptism unto death: that like as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we also might walk in newness of life." (Rom 6: 2-4)

We've already been down this road before.

I'm not going to waste my time trying to teach you.
Double_R
Posts: 4,886
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8/2/2014 11:12:43 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/2/2014 1:05:00 AM, sovereigngracereigns wrote:
Atheists often demand proof that God exists.
But why should God prove himself to anyone?

God is the one condemning us to eternal torture for the crime of not believing he exists. If that is not good enough reason for you then you are not worth any attempt at intelligent discussion.

When a king issues a decree, he sends MESSENGERS to tell the people.
He doesn't personally address each member of the kingdom!

Personal messengers in the natural world who had contact with a natural world king is evidence of the existence of a natural world king, and certainly evidence that failure to follow the message will result in unpleasant consequences in the natural world.

Personal messengers in the natural world delivering a message from beyond the natural world with no way to demonstrate that anything beyond the natural world exists in the first place is not sufficient evidence for anything.
annanicole
Posts: 19,791
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8/2/2014 11:22:41 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/2/2014 11:12:38 AM, sovereigngracereigns wrote:
At 8/2/2014 11:02:34 AM, annanicole wrote:
At 8/2/2014 1:05:00 AM, sovereigngracereigns wrote:
Atheists often demand proof that God exists.
But why should God prove himself to anyone?

When a king issues a decree, he sends MESSENGERS to tell the people.
He doesn't personally address each member of the kingdom!

And God is not only a king, but the supreme controller of the universe.
WHY ON EARTH should he prove himself to you?

If God sends MESSENGERS to faithfully RELAY his MESSAGE, then it's YOUR FAULT if you IGNORE the MESSAGE!

It's NOT the FAULT of the MESSENGERS, NOR is it GOD'S FAULT!
It's YOUR FAULT, and you'll be JUSTLY CONDEMNED.

And stop blaming Christians for their lack of evidence!
God sends them as MESSENGERS, not SALESMEN and LAWYERS!

If you think you're so incredibly valuable that God OWES you ANYTHING but WRATH, I've got news for you, you're NOTHING to God.

The Word of God says:

"Behold, the nations are as a drop in a bucket,
And are counted as the small dust on the scales;

Look, He lifts up the isles as a very little thing.

And Lebanon is not sufficient to burn,
Nor its beasts sufficient for a burnt offering.

All nations before Him are as nothing,
And they are counted by Him less than nothing and worthless.
"
(Isaiah 40:15-17)

You see,
God doesn't NEED you. He's fine by himself.
And unless you're IN CHRIST, God doesn't ACCEPT you or LOVE you.

ONLY IN CHRIST, through FAITH in the LORD JESUS CHRIST, can a SINNER be ACCEPTED by God.

I'm afraid there are only two places at which we are told how to get into Christ:

" For ye are all sons of God, through faith, in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as were baptized into Christ did put on Christ." (Gal 3: 26-27)

"God forbid. We who died to sin, how shall we any longer live therein? Or are ye ignorant that all we who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were buried therefore with him through baptism unto death: that like as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we also might walk in newness of life." (Rom 6: 2-4)

We've already been down this road before.

I'm not going to waste my time trying to teach you.

Sorry, I forgot. You have a humanly-devised theory as to the design and purpose of baptism. Yes, you explained it.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
sovereigngracereigns
Posts: 585
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8/2/2014 11:42:59 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/2/2014 11:12:43 AM, Double_R wrote:
At 8/2/2014 1:05:00 AM, sovereigngracereigns wrote:
Atheists often demand proof that God exists.
But why should God prove himself to anyone?

God is the one condemning us to eternal torture for the crime of not believing he exists. If that is not good enough reason for you then you are not worth any attempt at intelligent discussion.

When a king issues a decree, he sends MESSENGERS to tell the people.
He doesn't personally address each member of the kingdom!

Personal messengers in the natural world who had contact with a natural world king is evidence of the existence of a natural world king, and certainly evidence that failure to follow the message will result in unpleasant consequences in the natural world.

Personal messengers in the natural world delivering a message from beyond the natural world with no way to demonstrate that anything beyond the natural world exists in the first place is not sufficient evidence for anything.

Listen,
Nobody is going to Hell for not believing that God exists.
That's not why people go to Hell.

First of all, EVERYBODY KNOWS that God exists. There IS NO SUCH THING as an "Atheist."

People who CLAIM to be atheists are LIARS.
They KNOW God exists through the light of CREATION.

People go to Hell for REBELLION against God.
You are REBELLING by DENYING what you know to be true.

18 "For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened."
(Romans 1: 18-21)

See,
You DENY that God exists to JUSTIFY your SIN.
And your CONSCIENCE testifies to that.

You have a conscience that can distinguish between right and wrong, but you SUPPRESS what your conscience tells you, in order to justify your sin.

THAT ALONE is sufficient reason for God to send you to Hell.
But there is ALSO the light of the GOSPEL.

There are multitudes of people who have HEARD the GOSPEL of CHRIST, but they WILL NOT BELIEVE and be SAVED.

God will condemn them to Hell for ignoring the light that God gave them in hearing the Gospel.

God has given you understanding that he exists through the CREATION.
And he has sent MESSENGERS to TESTIFY of His SON.

And you will be JUSTLY CONDEMNED if you will NOT CONFESS your SIN and SEEK MERCY in the LORD JESUS CHRIST.

God sent his Son, Jesus Christ, to this world to save sinners, and all those who trust in him will be saved.

By his substitutionary death on the cross, he obtained the redemption of all that the Father gave to him.

Christ said:
"All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out." (John 6:37)

And so, if you are one of his, God will send you a preacher, and you'll hear the Gospel and believe, and be saved.
annanicole
Posts: 19,791
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8/2/2014 1:44:29 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/2/2014 11:42:59 AM, sovereigngracereigns wrote:
At 8/2/2014 11:12:43 AM, Double_R wrote:
At 8/2/2014 1:05:00 AM, sovereigngracereigns wrote:
Christ said:
"All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out." (John 6:37)

And so, if you are one of his, God will send you a preacher, and you'll hear the Gospel and believe, and be saved.

Notice the order that you give:

(1) You are one of His, i. e. a child of God FIRST. But what is your status as far as salvation? Well, according to your later comments, you are lost at this point.

(2) God sends this person who is a child of God to a preacher

(3) The child of God hears the gospel

(4) The child of God believes the gospel

(5) The child of God, who apparently was lost, is now saved.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
sovereigngracereigns
Posts: 585
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8/2/2014 2:05:44 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/2/2014 1:44:29 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 8/2/2014 11:42:59 AM, sovereigngracereigns wrote:
At 8/2/2014 11:12:43 AM, Double_R wrote:
At 8/2/2014 1:05:00 AM, sovereigngracereigns wrote:
Christ said:
"All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out." (John 6:37)

And so, if you are one of his, God will send you a preacher, and you'll hear the Gospel and believe, and be saved.

Notice the order that you give:

(1) You are one of His, i. e. a child of God FIRST. But what is your status as far as salvation? Well, according to your later comments, you are lost at this point.

(2) God sends this person who is a child of God to a preacher

(3) The child of God hears the gospel

(4) The child of God believes the gospel

(5) The child of God, who apparently was lost, is now saved.

There's no need to create such a deliberate distortion of what I'm saying.

The LORD HIMSELF put it this way:
"All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out."

They must be GIVEN to him before they will come.
And they were given to him BEFORE he MADE the WORLD.

Look at Ephesians 1:3-6 :
3 "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved."

God's people were CHOSEN "IN HIM BEFORE the FOUNDATION of the WORLD," and PREDESTINATED to the adoption of sons.

And Christ ALSO said this:
"No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day."

So, UNLESS GOD DRAWS THEM, they CAN'T and WON'T come to Christ.

You see,
GOD is in control of salvation, from START to FINISH.
He's "the AUTHOR and FINISHER of our faith." (Heb. 12:2)

But because you're a self-righteous works-monger who boasts of your own merit, you REFUSE to GIVE GOD ALL the GLORY.

You are as good as in Hell right now as we speak.
REPENT and BELIEVE the GOSPEL.

IF you are ACTUALLY ONE of HIS, you WILL COME to HIM.
But right now, you are LOST as can be.
annanicole
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8/2/2014 2:22:44 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/2/2014 2:05:44 PM, sovereigngracereigns wrote:
At 8/2/2014 1:44:29 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 8/2/2014 11:42:59 AM, sovereigngracereigns wrote:
At 8/2/2014 11:12:43 AM, Double_R wrote:
At 8/2/2014 1:05:00 AM, sovereigngracereigns wrote:
Christ said:
"All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out." (John 6:37)

And so, if you are one of his, God will send you a preacher, and you'll hear the Gospel and believe, and be saved.

Notice the order that you give:

(1) You are one of His, i. e. a child of God FIRST. But what is your status as far as salvation? Well, according to your later comments, you are lost at this point.

(2) God sends this person who is a child of God to a preacher

(3) The child of God hears the gospel

(4) The child of God believes the gospel

(5) The child of God, who apparently was lost, is now saved.

There's no need to create such a deliberate distortion of what I'm saying.

Where is the distortion?

The LORD HIMSELF put it this way:
"All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out."

They must be GIVEN to him before they will come.
And they were given to him BEFORE he MADE the WORLD.

... and you leap from that into thinking that certain people are foreordained to "come to Christ", a such specific foreordination was in place before the world (or the person) was ever created?

Look at Ephesians 1:3-6 :
3 "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved."

God's people were CHOSEN "IN HIM BEFORE the FOUNDATION of the WORLD," and PREDESTINATED to the adoption of sons.

Certainly God has always, all the way back to Adam, foreordained that the obedient believer will be the person who is accepted of God.

And Christ ALSO said this:
"No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day."

That's absolutely true. A person is drawn by the gospel.


So, UNLESS GOD DRAWS THEM, they CAN'T and WON'T come to Christ.

Of course not. Name a person who has been drawn to God without the gospel. There's not one.

You see,
GOD is in control of salvation, from START to FINISH.
He's "the AUTHOR and FINISHER of our faith." (Heb. 12:2)

Yes. He does so by His word.

But because you're a self-righteous works-monger who boasts of your own merit, you REFUSE to GIVE GOD ALL the GLORY.

Why, I didn't come up with the word of God. I do not believe that I have boasted one time about my own merit. If I did, kindly point out the post.

You are as good as in Hell right now as we speak.
REPENT and BELIEVE the GOSPEL.

Why, according to your fool theories, 'tis GOD ABOVE who prevents me from believing the crap that you come up with. I have no choice at all in the matter, do I? Nobody else on here does, either.

IF you are ACTUALLY ONE of HIS, you WILL COME to HIM.

See? I can't believe someone is actually crazy enough to claim that unbelievers are saved.

But right now, you are LOST as can be.

I'd say any man who reads, "Repent ye, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ unto the remission of your sins" - then says, "Oh, baptism is only symbolic. You don't really have to do it in order to be saved" - is the one who is lost. Lost, and leading others into the same fate.

Weren't those folks on Pentecost saved before they ever repented of their sins? If so (and you've said they were), then how in the world did they repent "unto the remission of their sins"? Heck, by that point, they shouldn't have had any sins.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
annanicole
Posts: 19,791
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8/2/2014 2:27:23 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/2/2014 1:05:00 AM, sovereigngracereigns wrote:

We'll analyze Mark 16: 16 next. Of course, it says the same thing as Acts 2: 38.

"He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that disbelieveth shall be condemned."

(1) Both "believeth" (having believed) and "be baptized" (having been baptized) are past (aorist) participles.

(2) According to every Greek grammar, the timing of the action of an aorist participle cannot - c-a-n-n-o-t - occur subsequent to the timing of the action of the main verb.

(3) Aorist participles: "having believed" and "having been baptized"
Main verb: shall be saved

(4) Conclusion: the timing of "having been baptized" cannot possibly occur subsequent to "shall be saved". It's not grammatically possible.

But your doctrine is "saved first, the baptized later". No, we can't have that. You'll be contradicting not only Acts 2: 38, but also Mark 16: 16.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
intellectuallyprimitive
Posts: 1,000
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8/2/2014 2:53:09 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/2/2014 10:53:49 AM, sovereigngracereigns wrote:
At 8/2/2014 2:56:11 AM, intellectuallyprimitive wrote:
At 8/2/2014 2:48:55 AM, sovereigngracereigns wrote:
At 8/2/2014 2:35:32 AM, intellectuallyprimitive wrote:
At 8/2/2014 1:05:00 AM, sovereigngracereigns wrote:
Atheists often demand proof that God exists.
But why should God prove himself to anyone?

When a king issues a decree, he sends MESSENGERS to tell the people.
He doesn't personally address each member of the kingdom!

And God is not only a king, but the supreme controller of the universe.
WHY ON EARTH should he prove himself to you?

If God sends MESSENGERS to faithfully RELAY his MESSAGE, then it's YOUR FAULT if you IGNORE the MESSAGE!

It's NOT the FAULT of the MESSENGERS, NOR is it GOD'S FAULT!
It's YOUR FAULT, and you'll be JUSTLY CONDEMNED.

And stop blaming Christians for their lack of evidence!
God sends them as MESSENGERS, not SALESMEN and LAWYERS!

If you think you're so incredibly valuable that God OWES you ANYTHING but WRATH, I've got news for you, you're NOTHING to God.

The Word of God says:

"Behold, the nations are as a drop in a bucket,
And are counted as the small dust on the scales;

Look, He lifts up the isles as a very little thing.

And Lebanon is not sufficient to burn,
Nor its beasts sufficient for a burnt offering.

All nations before Him are as nothing,
And they are counted by Him less than nothing and worthless.
"
(Isaiah 40:15-17)

You see,
God doesn't NEED you. He's fine by himself.
And unless you're IN CHRIST, God doesn't ACCEPT you or LOVE you.

ONLY IN CHRIST, through FAITH in the LORD JESUS CHRIST, can a SINNER be ACCEPTED by God.

OUTSIDE of CHRIST, God HATES you, and his WRATH is AGAINST YOU.
You MUST have his SON to be SAVED.

"He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."(John 3:36)

You must come like a beggar, with nothing to offer God, or you won't receive mercy from God.
Those who DEMAND proof from God will receive NOTHING from him.
But all those who ASK will receive!

Christ said:
"Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you.
For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened."
(Matthew 7:7-8)

Next

Exactly.

You've got nothing to say.

You're guilty and you know it. But you just can't admit it.

NEXT!

I am guilty for a multitude of actions. The difference between me and you is that I hold myself accountable and responsible for my actions, and you repent to god to asking for forgiveness. Are you not aware that you alone are responsible for your actions?

That makes no sense.

Of course I believe I'm responsible for my actions.
I believe I'm a guilty sinner.

You, on the other hand, deny you have any guilt.
And yet you claim that you take responsibility?

Where are we? In Alice's "Wonderland", where everything is completely backwards?

When have I denied that I am not guilty? My initial sentence was an admittance that I am indeed guilty for some of my actions. You do repent do you not?
Mikal
Posts: 11,271
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8/2/2014 2:54:55 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/2/2014 1:05:00 AM, sovereigngracereigns wrote:
Atheists often demand proof that God exists.
But why should God prove himself to anyone?

When a king issues a decree, he sends MESSENGERS to tell the people.
He doesn't personally address each member of the kingdom!

And God is not only a king, but the supreme controller of the universe.
WHY ON EARTH should he prove himself to you?

If God sends MESSENGERS to faithfully RELAY his MESSAGE, then it's YOUR FAULT if you IGNORE the MESSAGE!

It's NOT the FAULT of the MESSENGERS, NOR is it GOD'S FAULT!
It's YOUR FAULT, and you'll be JUSTLY CONDEMNED.

And stop blaming Christians for their lack of evidence!
God sends them as MESSENGERS, not SALESMEN and LAWYERS!

If you think you're so incredibly valuable that God OWES you ANYTHING but WRATH, I've got news for you, you're NOTHING to God.

The Word of God says:

"Behold, the nations are as a drop in a bucket,
And are counted as the small dust on the scales;

Look, He lifts up the isles as a very little thing.

And Lebanon is not sufficient to burn,
Nor its beasts sufficient for a burnt offering.

All nations before Him are as nothing,
And they are counted by Him less than nothing and worthless.
"
(Isaiah 40:15-17)

You see,
God doesn't NEED you. He's fine by himself.
And unless you're IN CHRIST, God doesn't ACCEPT you or LOVE you.

ONLY IN CHRIST, through FAITH in the LORD JESUS CHRIST, can a SINNER be ACCEPTED by God.

OUTSIDE of CHRIST, God HATES you, and his WRATH is AGAINST YOU.
You MUST have his SON to be SAVED.

"He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."(John 3:36)

You must come like a beggar, with nothing to offer God, or you won't receive mercy from God.
Those who DEMAND proof from God will receive NOTHING from him.
But all those who ASK will receive!

Christ said:
"Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you.
For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened."
(Matthew 7:7-8)

troll lol
Double_R
Posts: 4,886
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8/2/2014 3:21:11 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/2/2014 11:42:59 AM, sovereigngracereigns wrote:
At 8/2/2014 11:12:43 AM, Double_R wrote:
At 8/2/2014 1:05:00 AM, sovereigngracereigns wrote:
Atheists often demand proof that God exists.
But why should God prove himself to anyone?

God is the one condemning us to eternal torture for the crime of not believing he exists. If that is not good enough reason for you then you are not worth any attempt at intelligent discussion.

Listen,
Nobody is going to Hell for not believing that God exists.
That's not why people go to Hell.

First of all, EVERYBODY KNOWS that God exists. There IS NO SUCH THING as an "Atheist."

People who CLAIM to be atheists are LIARS.
They KNOW God exists through the light of CREATION.

People go to Hell for REBELLION against God.
You are REBELLING by DENYING what you know to be true.

As I suspected, you are not worth trying to have an intelligent discussion with. There is no purpose in discussing my position with someone whose only argument is that I do not really hold my position.
sovereigngracereigns
Posts: 585
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8/2/2014 3:37:40 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/2/2014 2:27:23 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 8/2/2014 1:05:00 AM, sovereigngracereigns wrote:

We'll analyze Mark 16: 16 next. Of course, it says the same thing as Acts 2: 38.

"He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that disbelieveth shall be condemned."

(1) Both "believeth" (having believed) and "be baptized" (having been baptized) are past (aorist) participles.

(2) According to every Greek grammar, the timing of the action of an aorist participle cannot - c-a-n-n-o-t - occur subsequent to the timing of the action of the main verb.

(3) Aorist participles: "having believed" and "having been baptized"
Main verb: shall be saved

(4) Conclusion: the timing of "having been baptized" cannot possibly occur subsequent to "shall be saved". It's not grammatically possible.

But your doctrine is "saved first, the baptized later". No, we can't have that. You'll be contradicting not only Acts 2: 38, but also Mark 16: 16.

I've never denied that a person is saved IN TIME when he hears and believes the Gospel.
I'm just saying that those who believe IN TIME were already PREDESTINATED and APPOINTED to salvation.

They were ALWAYS GOING TO BELIEVE and BE SAVED, because it was ORDAINED BY GOD from ALL ETERNITY.

So, UNTIL the APPOINTED TIME when they believe and are saved, they are LOST,
but they WILL BE FOUND.

I don't EXPECT you to understand that because you are LOST, but it MAY BE that you are one of God's elect.

And IF you ARE, then IN TIME, you WILL hear the Gospel, and at that time, you WILL BELIEVE and BE SAVED.

Now, baptism is just a public profession of one's union with Christ, in his death, burial, and resurrection.

The elect were baptized into Christ when he died, and was buried, and rose again.
But the ordinance of baptism (in water) is purely symbolic.

There is no saving efficacy in being baptized in water.
If you think there is, then you are a HERETIC.

Yes, the one who BELIEVES and is SAVED will obey the command to be baptized.
But if you think a person is not saved UNTIL he is BAPTIZED in WATER, then again, it's because YOU ARE LOST.

Again,
You are lost, but you may be one of God's elect.
You're not dead yet, so there's still hope for you.
BestNameEver
Posts: 22
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8/2/2014 3:42:24 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/2/2014 1:05:00 AM, sovereigngracereigns wrote:
Atheists often demand proof that God exists.
But why should God prove himself to anyone?

When a king issues a decree, he sends MESSENGERS to tell the people.
He doesn't personally address each member of the kingdom!

And God is not only a king, but the supreme controller of the universe.
WHY ON EARTH should he prove himself to you?

If God sends MESSENGERS to faithfully RELAY his MESSAGE, then it's YOUR FAULT if you IGNORE the MESSAGE!

It's NOT the FAULT of the MESSENGERS, NOR is it GOD'S FAULT!
It's YOUR FAULT, and you'll be JUSTLY CONDEMNED.

And stop blaming Christians for their lack of evidence!
God sends them as MESSENGERS, not SALESMEN and LAWYERS!

If you think you're so incredibly valuable that God OWES you ANYTHING but WRATH, I've got news for you, you're NOTHING to God.

The Word of God says:

"Behold, the nations are as a drop in a bucket,
And are counted as the small dust on the scales;

Look, He lifts up the isles as a very little thing.

And Lebanon is not sufficient to burn,
Nor its beasts sufficient for a burnt offering.

All nations before Him are as nothing,
And they are counted by Him less than nothing and worthless.
"
(Isaiah 40:15-17)

You see,
God doesn't NEED you. He's fine by himself.
And unless you're IN CHRIST, God doesn't ACCEPT you or LOVE you.

ONLY IN CHRIST, through FAITH in the LORD JESUS CHRIST, can a SINNER be ACCEPTED by God.

OUTSIDE of CHRIST, God HATES you, and his WRATH is AGAINST YOU.
You MUST have his SON to be SAVED.

"He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."(John 3:36)

You must come like a beggar, with nothing to offer God, or you won't receive mercy from God.
Those who DEMAND proof from God will receive NOTHING from him.
But all those who ASK will receive!

Christ said:
"Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you.
For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened."
(Matthew 7:7-8)

I must be a masochist, I'll take the bait.

When a king sends a messenger, there's usually only one and he's pretty straight forward in his message. Only the most twisted and tyrannical of Kings would torture you for not heeding his message, especially when he sends so many different messengers with so many different messages. There are over 40,000 denominations of Christianity alone, and lots of them make mutually exclusive claims. Some claim transubstantiation, some don't. Some claim holy trinity, but not all. Some say that Jesus was literally God in the flesh and others a mere mortal. Anglicans, Lutherans, Methodists, Baptists, Presbyterians, and Pentecostals all can't quite agree, but can agree to call themselves Protestant, and they all think the Catholics are wrong. The Catholics don't think the Orthodox church got it right, oh wait which Orthodox, Russian or Greek? Wait you're telling me there are more than two countries with Orthodox churches? What about those Universal Unitarians? *Knock Knock* Jehovah's Witnesses! Oh wait, no, they're Mormons. And have you seen these guys called Muslims? They take all this stuff, but have an entirely new prophet, his name's Muhammad!

If I actually thought there was a God, and he was the tyrant dictator of the universe you describe him to be, wouldn't I be a fool to mock him on internet forums? Like any other claim, the claims of God must be backed by evidence. I am not thoroughly convinced that the universe necessarily requires an intelligent creator as a cause, nor that if I did think it required intelligence that Christian monotheism would be my immediate conclusion. I mean, I just pointed out the differences within the Christian faith, I didn't even start on non-monotheistic god concepts like polytheism, monoaltry, pantheism or panentheism which to me are just as valid if not more valid than monotheist supernatural god concepts. Why should I even pick monotheism? Why should I pick Abrahamic Monotheism and not Zoroastrian, or Vodou? Why Christianity out of the religions within Abrahamic Monotheism, what about Judaism, Islam, Baha'i or Rastafari?

As this thread has shown a great example of, monotheists can't agree. You guys can't even agree on the same interpretation of the same book. You can't even agree what exactly it is that gets you into heaven or into hell. If the monotheists can't even figure out their own internal inconsistencies on the fundamental aspects of their ideology, how can you possibly expect me to take your word for it when even your own fellow adherents to Christianity can't take your word for it?
annanicole
Posts: 19,791
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8/2/2014 3:43:24 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/2/2014 3:37:40 PM, sovereigngracereigns wrote:
At 8/2/2014 2:27:23 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 8/2/2014 1:05:00 AM, sovereigngracereigns wrote:

We'll analyze Mark 16: 16 next. Of course, it says the same thing as Acts 2: 38.

"He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that disbelieveth shall be condemned."

(1) Both "believeth" (having believed) and "be baptized" (having been baptized) are past (aorist) participles.

(2) According to every Greek grammar, the timing of the action of an aorist participle cannot - c-a-n-n-o-t - occur subsequent to the timing of the action of the main verb.

(3) Aorist participles: "having believed" and "having been baptized"
Main verb: shall be saved

(4) Conclusion: the timing of "having been baptized" cannot possibly occur subsequent to "shall be saved". It's not grammatically possible.

But your doctrine is "saved first, the baptized later". No, we can't have that. You'll be contradicting not only Acts 2: 38, but also Mark 16: 16.


I've never denied that a person is saved IN TIME when he hears and believes the Gospel.
I'm just saying that those who believe IN TIME were already PREDESTINATED and APPOINTED to salvation.

They were ALWAYS GOING TO BELIEVE and BE SAVED, because it was ORDAINED BY GOD from ALL ETERNITY.

So, UNTIL the APPOINTED TIME when they believe and are saved, they are LOST,
but they WILL BE FOUND.

Unless, of course, they die first. But that can't happen, can it? Hence, a nice recipe for immortality might be: be an elect unbeliever.

I don't EXPECT you to understand that because you are LOST, but it MAY BE that you are one of God's elect.

Oh, I understand it. It is incorrect.

And IF you ARE, then IN TIME, you WILL hear the Gospel, and at that time, you WILL BELIEVE and BE SAVED.

Now, baptism is just a public profession of one's union with Christ, in his death, burial, and resurrection.

The elect were baptized into Christ when he died, and was buried, and rose again.

Prove it. You are now saying that certain unbelievers are already baptized into Christ!

But the ordinance of baptism (in water) is purely symbolic.

Prove it.

There is no saving efficacy in being baptized in water.
If you think there is, then you are a HERETIC.

Yes, the one who BELIEVES and is SAVED will obey the command to be baptized.
But if you think a person is not saved UNTIL he is BAPTIZED in WATER, then again, it's because YOU ARE LOST.

What happened to your analyses of Acts 2: 38 and Mark 16: 16? I find them to be sorely lacking, e. g. non-existent.

Again,
You are lost, but you may be one of God's elect.
You're not dead yet, so there's still hope for you.

Again, that does not answer the points made concerning those two passages, Acts 2: 38 and Mark 16: 16.

You can spout off this rhetoric to your heart's content but at the end of the day the Bible says otherwise - over and over and over.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
sovereigngracereigns
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8/2/2014 4:02:31 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/2/2014 3:42:24 PM, BestNameEver wrote:
At 8/2/2014 1:05:00 AM, sovereigngracereigns wrote:
Atheists often demand proof that God exists.
But why should God prove himself to anyone?

When a king issues a decree, he sends MESSENGERS to tell the people.
He doesn't personally address each member of the kingdom!

And God is not only a king, but the supreme controller of the universe.
WHY ON EARTH should he prove himself to you?

If God sends MESSENGERS to faithfully RELAY his MESSAGE, then it's YOUR FAULT if you IGNORE the MESSAGE!

It's NOT the FAULT of the MESSENGERS, NOR is it GOD'S FAULT!
It's YOUR FAULT, and you'll be JUSTLY CONDEMNED.

And stop blaming Christians for their lack of evidence!
God sends them as MESSENGERS, not SALESMEN and LAWYERS!

If you think you're so incredibly valuable that God OWES you ANYTHING but WRATH, I've got news for you, you're NOTHING to God.

The Word of God says:

"Behold, the nations are as a drop in a bucket,
And are counted as the small dust on the scales;

Look, He lifts up the isles as a very little thing.

And Lebanon is not sufficient to burn,
Nor its beasts sufficient for a burnt offering.

All nations before Him are as nothing,
And they are counted by Him less than nothing and worthless.
"
(Isaiah 40:15-17)

You see,
God doesn't NEED you. He's fine by himself.
And unless you're IN CHRIST, God doesn't ACCEPT you or LOVE you.

ONLY IN CHRIST, through FAITH in the LORD JESUS CHRIST, can a SINNER be ACCEPTED by God.

OUTSIDE of CHRIST, God HATES you, and his WRATH is AGAINST YOU.
You MUST have his SON to be SAVED.

"He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."(John 3:36)

You must come like a beggar, with nothing to offer God, or you won't receive mercy from God.
Those who DEMAND proof from God will receive NOTHING from him.
But all those who ASK will receive!

Christ said:
"Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you.
For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened."
(Matthew 7:7-8)


I must be a masochist, I'll take the bait.

When a king sends a messenger, there's usually only one and he's pretty straight forward in his message. Only the most twisted and tyrannical of Kings would torture you for not heeding his message, especially when he sends so many different messengers with so many different messages. There are over 40,000 denominations of Christianity alone, and lots of them make mutually exclusive claims. Some claim transubstantiation, some don't. Some claim holy trinity, but not all. Some say that Jesus was literally God in the flesh and others a mere mortal. Anglicans, Lutherans, Methodists, Baptists, Presbyterians, and Pentecostals all can't quite agree, but can agree to call themselves Protestant, and they all think the Catholics are wrong. The Catholics don't think the Orthodox church got it right, oh wait which Orthodox, Russian or Greek? Wait you're telling me there are more than two countries with Orthodox churches? What about those Universal Unitarians? *Knock Knock* Jehovah's Witnesses! Oh wait, no, they're Mormons. And have you seen these guys called Muslims? They take all this stuff, but have an entirely new prophet, his name's Muhammad!

If I actually thought there was a God, and he was the tyrant dictator of the universe you describe him to be, wouldn't I be a fool to mock him on internet forums? Like any other claim, the claims of God must be backed by evidence. I am not thoroughly convinced that the universe necessarily requires an intelligent creator as a cause, nor that if I did think it required intelligence that Christian monotheism would be my immediate conclusion. I mean, I just pointed out the differences within the Christian faith, I didn't even start on non-monotheistic god concepts like polytheism, monoaltry, pantheism or panentheism which to me are just as valid if not more valid than monotheist supernatural god concepts. Why should I even pick monotheism? Why should I pick Abrahamic Monotheism and not Zoroastrian, or Vodou? Why Christianity out of the religions within Abrahamic Monotheism, what about Judaism, Islam, Baha'i or Rastafari?

As this thread has shown a great example of, monotheists can't agree. You guys can't even agree on the same interpretation of the same book. You can't even agree what exactly it is that gets you into heaven or into hell. If the monotheists can't even figure out their own internal inconsistencies on the fundamental aspects of their ideology, how can you possibly expect me to take your word for it when even your own fellow adherents to Christianity can't take your word for it?

I'm not talking about FALSE MESSENGERS.

I'm talking about the messengers that are SENT BY GOD, who faithfully declare GOD'S MESSAGE.

And I KNOW that you can't distinguish between the false and the true, but THAT is not the FAULT of GOD either.

GOD has given SATAN the POWER to send FALSE MESSENGERS as a JUDGEMENT on this UNGODLY WORLD.

And he also sends TRUE MESSENGERS to his ELECT, who are SCATTERED throughout the WORLD, and THEY HEAR HIS VOICE, and they DO FOLLOW HIM.

If YOU DO NOT BELIEVE the message, it's because you are LOST.
But LISTEN:
It MAY BE that God WILL SAVE you YET!

You MAY be one of HIS LOST SHEEP.

Christ said:
27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father"s hand. 30 I and My Father are one." (John 10:27-30)

If you can hear his voice, I would urge you to keep seeking him, and don't rest until you know that he's yours.

And may God give you his Spirit, and assure you that you're his, and that he will never leave or forsake you.
BestNameEver
Posts: 22
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8/2/2014 4:14:18 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/2/2014 4:02:31 PM, sovereigngracereigns wrote:
At 8/2/2014 3:42:24 PM, BestNameEver wrote:
At 8/2/2014 1:05:00 AM, sovereigngracereigns wrote:
Atheists often demand proof that God exists.
But why should God prove himself to anyone?

When a king issues a decree, he sends MESSENGERS to tell the people.
He doesn't personally address each member of the kingdom!

And God is not only a king, but the supreme controller of the universe.
WHY ON EARTH should he prove himself to you?

If God sends MESSENGERS to faithfully RELAY his MESSAGE, then it's YOUR FAULT if you IGNORE the MESSAGE!

It's NOT the FAULT of the MESSENGERS, NOR is it GOD'S FAULT!
It's YOUR FAULT, and you'll be JUSTLY CONDEMNED.

And stop blaming Christians for their lack of evidence!
God sends them as MESSENGERS, not SALESMEN and LAWYERS!

If you think you're so incredibly valuable that God OWES you ANYTHING but WRATH, I've got news for you, you're NOTHING to God.

The Word of God says:

"Behold, the nations are as a drop in a bucket,
And are counted as the small dust on the scales;

Look, He lifts up the isles as a very little thing.

And Lebanon is not sufficient to burn,
Nor its beasts sufficient for a burnt offering.

All nations before Him are as nothing,
And they are counted by Him less than nothing and worthless.
"
(Isaiah 40:15-17)

You see,
God doesn't NEED you. He's fine by himself.
And unless you're IN CHRIST, God doesn't ACCEPT you or LOVE you.

ONLY IN CHRIST, through FAITH in the LORD JESUS CHRIST, can a SINNER be ACCEPTED by God.

OUTSIDE of CHRIST, God HATES you, and his WRATH is AGAINST YOU.
You MUST have his SON to be SAVED.

"He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."(John 3:36)

You must come like a beggar, with nothing to offer God, or you won't receive mercy from God.
Those who DEMAND proof from God will receive NOTHING from him.
But all those who ASK will receive!

Christ said:
"Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you.
For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened."
(Matthew 7:7-8)


I must be a masochist, I'll take the bait.

When a king sends a messenger, there's usually only one and he's pretty straight forward in his message. Only the most twisted and tyrannical of Kings would torture you for not heeding his message, especially when he sends so many different messengers with so many different messages. There are over 40,000 denominations of Christianity alone, and lots of them make mutually exclusive claims. Some claim transubstantiation, some don't. Some claim holy trinity, but not all. Some say that Jesus was literally God in the flesh and others a mere mortal. Anglicans, Lutherans, Methodists, Baptists, Presbyterians, and Pentecostals all can't quite agree, but can agree to call themselves Protestant, and they all think the Catholics are wrong. The Catholics don't think the Orthodox church got it right, oh wait which Orthodox, Russian or Greek? Wait you're telling me there are more than two countries with Orthodox churches? What about those Universal Unitarians? *Knock Knock* Jehovah's Witnesses! Oh wait, no, they're Mormons. And have you seen these guys called Muslims? They take all this stuff, but have an entirely new prophet, his name's Muhammad!

If I actually thought there was a God, and he was the tyrant dictator of the universe you describe him to be, wouldn't I be a fool to mock him on internet forums? Like any other claim, the claims of God must be backed by evidence. I am not thoroughly convinced that the universe necessarily requires an intelligent creator as a cause, nor that if I did think it required intelligence that Christian monotheism would be my immediate conclusion. I mean, I just pointed out the differences within the Christian faith, I didn't even start on non-monotheistic god concepts like polytheism, monoaltry, pantheism or panentheism which to me are just as valid if not more valid than monotheist supernatural god concepts. Why should I even pick monotheism? Why should I pick Abrahamic Monotheism and not Zoroastrian, or Vodou? Why Christianity out of the religions within Abrahamic Monotheism, what about Judaism, Islam, Baha'i or Rastafari?

As this thread has shown a great example of, monotheists can't agree. You guys can't even agree on the same interpretation of the same book. You can't even agree what exactly it is that gets you into heaven or into hell. If the monotheists can't even figure out their own internal inconsistencies on the fundamental aspects of their ideology, how can you possibly expect me to take your word for it when even your own fellow adherents to Christianity can't take your word for it?

I'm not talking about FALSE MESSENGERS.

I'm talking about the messengers that are SENT BY GOD, who faithfully declare GOD'S MESSAGE.

And I KNOW that you can't distinguish between the false and the true, but THAT is not the FAULT of GOD either.

GOD has given SATAN the POWER to send FALSE MESSENGERS as a JUDGEMENT on this UNGODLY WORLD.

And he also sends TRUE MESSENGERS to his ELECT, who are SCATTERED throughout the WORLD, and THEY HEAR HIS VOICE, and they DO FOLLOW HIM.

If YOU DO NOT BELIEVE the message, it's because you are LOST.
But LISTEN:
It MAY BE that God WILL SAVE you YET!

You MAY be one of HIS LOST SHEEP.

Christ said:
27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father"s hand. 30 I and My Father are one." (John 10:27-30)

If you can hear his voice, I would urge you to keep seeking him, and don't rest until you know that he's yours.

And may God give you his Spirit, and assure you that you're his, and that he will never leave or forsake you.

Well, they all claim to be God's true, inspired messengers. They all claim that the others are false messengers. They all claim that God speaks directly to them and that anyone who follows other religions are misled. They all make the exact same claims you do, down to the capital letters, bold text, and underlining. The difference is that they believe in different religions. Unless there is an objective way to determine which messengers are the true prophets of God (I haven't heard one yet) I see no way to discern the truth of the Hindus from the truth of Muslims from the truth of the Mormons from the truth of the Buddhists. And I see no way to tell that you aren't as misled as you claim them to be.
YamaVonKarma
Posts: 7,570
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8/2/2014 4:19:29 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
To make this simple. This is a website for debating. Debates require evidence. If you refuse to provide evidence, the internet is full of religious forums.
People who I've called as mafia DP1:
TUF, and YYW
sovereigngracereigns
Posts: 585
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8/2/2014 4:26:31 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/2/2014 2:22:44 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 8/2/2014 2:05:44 PM, sovereigngracereigns wrote:
At 8/2/2014 1:44:29 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 8/2/2014 11:42:59 AM, sovereigngracereigns wrote:
At 8/2/2014 11:12:43 AM, Double_R wrote:
At 8/2/2014 1:05:00 AM, sovereigngracereigns wrote:
Christ said:
"All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out." (John 6:37)

And so, if you are one of his, God will send you a preacher, and you'll hear the Gospel and believe, and be saved.

Notice the order that you give:

(1) You are one of His, i. e. a child of God FIRST. But what is your status as far as salvation? Well, according to your later comments, you are lost at this point.

(2) God sends this person who is a child of God to a preacher

(3) The child of God hears the gospel

(4) The child of God believes the gospel

(5) The child of God, who apparently was lost, is now saved.

There's no need to create such a deliberate distortion of what I'm saying.

Where is the distortion?

The LORD HIMSELF put it this way:
"All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out."

They must be GIVEN to him before they will come.
And they were given to him BEFORE he MADE the WORLD.

... and you leap from that into thinking that certain people are foreordained to "come to Christ", a such specific foreordination was in place before the world (or the person) was ever created?

Yes, that's EXACTLY what I'm saying.
That's what Ephesians 1:3-6 says.

Read it again:

Look at Ephesians 1:3-6 :
3 "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved."

Now, that may be hard for you to believe, but it's not hard to understand.
God CHOSE who he would save even BEFORE he CREATED them.

You're like Nicodemus here, going "How can a man be born again? Can he crawl back into his mother's womb and be born?"

It doesn't make sense to you because you're spiritually dead.
You need GOD to GIVE you LIFE and FAITH.

GOD is in control of ALL THINGS.
NOT YOUR WILL.
NOT YOUR OBEDIENCE.
NOT YOU!!!!
Anna, YOU are NOT GOD!!!!

If you THINK you have the ability to CHOOSE GOOD and to CHOOSE GOD, then you're LOST!
But there's still HOPE for you!

REPENT of your self-righteous PRESUMPTION of salvation and just THROW YOURSELF on the MERCY of GOD!

You are LOST!
Just FORGET what you THINK you have DONE to CONTRIBUTE to your own salvation.

CONFESS that you're NOTHING BUT SIN before God, and CONFESS that you need MERCY and GRACE!

If you die in the state of unbelief and self-righteousness that you're currently in, you WILL go to HELL.

But IF you FORSAKE all your PRIDE and just BOW to the LORD JESUS he WILL give you REST for your soul.

REAL rest, NOT PRESUMPTION.
REAL PEACE, not a FALSE REFUGE.
You need CHRIST, and HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS, Anna!!!

You are so infuriatingly STUBBORN.
Just STOP all this NONSENSE, and SUBMIT to GOD'S WILL, or be DESTROYED.

I pray to God that he'll save you, for his glory and for your good.
All your hope is in CHRIST, and HIM ALONE.
sovereigngracereigns
Posts: 585
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8/2/2014 4:29:29 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/2/2014 4:19:29 PM, YamaVonKarma wrote:
To make this simple. This is a website for debating. Debates require evidence. If you refuse to provide evidence, the internet is full of religious forums.

So sue me.

I really just don't care. At all.

I care more about the souls of lost sinners than what people call "debating", which is just useless, if this forum is any indication.
Envisage
Posts: 3,646
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8/2/2014 4:31:10 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/2/2014 1:05:00 AM, sovereigngracereigns wrote:
Atheists often demand proof that God exists.
But why should God prove himself to anyone?

Because if God exists then God gave me a brain that realizes that believing the existance of things without good reasons to is stupid.
YamaVonKarma
Posts: 7,570
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8/2/2014 4:31:18 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/2/2014 4:29:29 PM, sovereigngracereigns wrote:
At 8/2/2014 4:19:29 PM, YamaVonKarma wrote:
To make this simple. This is a website for debating. Debates require evidence. If you refuse to provide evidence, the internet is full of religious forums.

So sue me.

I really just don't care. At all.

I care more about the souls of lost sinners than what people call "debating", which is just useless, if this forum is any indication.
My life is good, according to my judge.
People who I've called as mafia DP1:
TUF, and YYW