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Problem of Evil Defined and Refuted

sovereigngracereigns
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8/4/2014 12:38:13 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
I came across this article today, "The Problem of Evil Defined and Refuted." (link: http://www.imperishableinheritance.com... )

It is primarily for Christians interested in apologetics, but I think atheists and others would benefit from reading this as well.

PLEASE NOTE:
I do not know who the author is, and I am not familiar with the website it's posted on.
Therefore, I am not, in any way, endorsing the author or the website it's posted on.

I am, however, endorsing the article.
I agree with the content, and highly recommend it.


Just to give a summary of it's content, the author first answers the question: "What is The Problem of Evil?"

Then the author speaks briefly about the use of "theodicies" (attempts to reconcile evil with a good, loving, omnipotent God).

Then the author refutes two commonly used theodicies: "The Free Will Theodicy", and "Denying Omniscience or Omnipotence."

Finally, the author offers "A Proper Theodicy", citing three Biblical examples -- The story of Joseph, the story of Job, and the crucifixion of Christ.
Hematite12
Posts: 400
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8/4/2014 12:44:26 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/4/2014 12:38:13 PM, sovereigngracereigns wrote:
I came across this article today, "The Problem of Evil Defined and Refuted." (link: http://www.imperishableinheritance.com... )

It is primarily for Christians interested in apologetics, but I think atheists and others would benefit from reading this as well.

PLEASE NOTE:
I do not know who the author is, and I am not familiar with the website it's posted on.
Therefore, I am not, in any way, endorsing the author or the website it's posted on.

I am, however, endorsing the article.
I agree with the content, and highly recommend it.


Just to give a summary of it's content, the author first answers the question: "What is The Problem of Evil?"

Then the author speaks briefly about the use of "theodicies" (attempts to reconcile evil with a good, loving, omnipotent God).

Then the author refutes two commonly used theodicies: "The Free Will Theodicy", and "Denying Omniscience or Omnipotence."

Finally, the author offers "A Proper Theodicy", citing three Biblical examples -- The story of Joseph, the story of Job, and the crucifixion of Christ.

From the article:

We have estab"lished that we must use a theod"icy that hon"ors God"s omni"science, omnipo"tence, and omni-benevolence while affirm"ing that we can"not sim"ply ascribe evil to a self-determining will. So then, what are we to say of the prob"lem of evil?

We must not for"get of the argu"men"ta"tion used above against the exis"tence of God. In a deduc"tive argu"ment, one or more of the premises must be flawed in order for the con"clu"sion to be invalid. My argu"men"ta"tion will focus on premise num"ber 1.

This theod"icy cen"ters around the dis"tinc"tion of two agents, that being God (the first) and humans (the sec"ond). In other words, can both agents have dif"fer"ent plans for actions? In other words, could God view an action for a benev"o"lent pur"pose; but yet we view an action, and carry out as such, as evil? Let"s try an anal"ogy (graphic but poignant):

Pic"ture a man hold"ing down a child while other men stick pieces of metal into the child"s eye, all the while the child is scream"ing in pain, cry"ing out for them to stop. On the sur"face it seems like a hor"ri"ble, cruel thing these men are doing to the child. But if we add the infor"ma"tion that the child is bleed"ing to death from the nasal cav"ity, that there is no time for anes"thetic, that the man hold"ing him down is his lov"ing father, and that the men stick"ing the metal into his eye are doc"tors try"ing to save his life, then the prob"lem of evil dis"ap"pears. The evil doesn"t dis"ap"pear, it is still there (just ask the child!), but the prob"lem of evil is no longer present, because the inten"tion is good.2

This argu"men"ta"tion prop"erly illus"trates that God can, and does indeed, fore"or"dain evil; but yet He is still benev"o"lent because He is not the author of that evil (James 1:13) and He does not inter"cede because His plan for those actions are for His greater pur"pose and His will that is a mys"tery to us (Eph"esians 1:11).

Also, I believe this theod"icy, along the same line of rea"son"ing ade"quately answers the ques"tion of why God allows nat"ural dis"as"ters and other "evil" events out"side of the realm of human causality.


This is literally the worst theodicy I have ever heard. If you change the circumstances of an action, it changes the moral quality of it. What does that have to do with the Problem of Evil?

The case remains that children are raped and tortured, and their genitals mutilated. It doesn't matter if the intentions of the perpetrator are good or bad. How does that change anything? This is utterly incoherent.
PeacefulChaos
Posts: 2,610
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8/4/2014 3:35:14 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/4/2014 12:44:26 PM, Hematite12 wrote:

The case remains that children are raped and tortured, and their genitals mutilated. It doesn't matter if the intentions of the perpetrator are good or bad. How does that change anything? This is utterly incoherent.

I believe that the article wasn't referring to the intentions of the perpetrator, but the overall intentions of God. For example -

A tornado hits a small town. While people die and homes are destroyed, the community and outside world learns to unify together to help rebuild their houses and their lives, thus spreading unity and compassion through the world. People learn to bond and grow closer together due to this horrible event.

Of course, that's just an example. I am simply attempting to interpret what the article meant.
Hematite12
Posts: 400
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8/4/2014 3:37:52 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/4/2014 3:35:14 PM, PeacefulChaos wrote:
At 8/4/2014 12:44:26 PM, Hematite12 wrote:

The case remains that children are raped and tortured, and their genitals mutilated. It doesn't matter if the intentions of the perpetrator are good or bad. How does that change anything? This is utterly incoherent.

I believe that the article wasn't referring to the intentions of the perpetrator, but the overall intentions of God. For example -

A tornado hits a small town. While people die and homes are destroyed, the community and outside world learns to unify together to help rebuild their houses and their lives, thus spreading unity and compassion through the world. People learn to bond and grow closer together due to this horrible event.

Of course, that's just an example. I am simply attempting to interpret what the article meant.

And... where's the good result that comes of brutality to children?
sovereigngracereigns
Posts: 585
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8/4/2014 4:04:08 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/4/2014 3:35:14 PM, PeacefulChaos wrote:
At 8/4/2014 12:44:26 PM, Hematite12 wrote:

The case remains that children are raped and tortured, and their genitals mutilated. It doesn't matter if the intentions of the perpetrator are good or bad. How does that change anything? This is utterly incoherent.

I believe that the article wasn't referring to the intentions of the perpetrator, but the overall intentions of God. For example -

A tornado hits a small town. While people die and homes are destroyed, the community and outside world learns to unify together to help rebuild their houses and their lives, thus spreading unity and compassion through the world. People learn to bond and grow closer together due to this horrible event.

Of course, that's just an example. I am simply attempting to interpret what the article meant.

Umm....

Well, you got the basic idea of how God uses evil for good, but God's purpose is not to have people holding hands and singing "Kumbaya."

God's purpose is to glorify himself in the salvation of elect sinners, through the finished work of the Lord Jesus Christ.

And so, everything that comes to pass in time was foreordained by God for his glory, and for the good of his elect.

EVERYTHING.

Every horrible, sinful act that people commit in this sin-cursed world is ordained of God toward his purpose of saving his people.

It's a mystery to us, at times, because we can't see how things like rape and torture could possibly be used for good.
But the Word of God declares, in Romans 8:28,that "all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose."
sovereigngracereigns
Posts: 585
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8/4/2014 4:06:24 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/4/2014 3:37:52 PM, Hematite12 wrote:
At 8/4/2014 3:35:14 PM, PeacefulChaos wrote:
At 8/4/2014 12:44:26 PM, Hematite12 wrote:

The case remains that children are raped and tortured, and their genitals mutilated. It doesn't matter if the intentions of the perpetrator are good or bad. How does that change anything? This is utterly incoherent.

I believe that the article wasn't referring to the intentions of the perpetrator, but the overall intentions of God. For example -

A tornado hits a small town. While people die and homes are destroyed, the community and outside world learns to unify together to help rebuild their houses and their lives, thus spreading unity and compassion through the world. People learn to bond and grow closer together due to this horrible event.

Of course, that's just an example. I am simply attempting to interpret what the article meant.

And... where's the good result that comes of brutality to children?

As I just said to another poster:

God's purpose is to glorify himself in the salvation of elect sinners, through the finished work of the Lord Jesus Christ.

And so, everything that comes to pass in time was foreordained by God for his glory, and for the good of his elect.

EVERYTHING.

Every horrible, sinful act that people commit in this sin-cursed world is ordained of God toward his purpose of saving his people.

It's a mystery to us, at times, because we can't see how things like rape and torture could possibly be used for good.
But the Word of God declares, in Romans 8:28, that "all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose."
sovereigngracereigns
Posts: 585
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8/4/2014 4:20:23 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Another note,

The article is not an attempt to use objective evidence (i.e. "evidential apolgetics") to reconcile the existence of evil with an omnibenevolent God.

The article is an example of "pressupositional apologetics."

That is, it's an argument which "presupposes that the Bible is divine revelation and attempts to expose flaws in other worldviews. It claims that apart from presuppositions, one could not make sense of any human experience, and there can be no set of neutral assumptions from which to reason with a non-Christian."
(from Wikipedia)
PeacefulChaos
Posts: 2,610
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8/4/2014 5:12:56 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/4/2014 4:04:08 PM, sovereigngracereigns wrote:

Umm....

Well, you got the basic idea of how God uses evil for good, but God's purpose is not to have people holding hands and singing "Kumbaya."

God's purpose is to glorify himself in the salvation of elect sinners, through the finished work of the Lord Jesus Christ.

He does not need to glorify himself. God is not a selfish being. He loved us and thus he created us, and our purpose here on this earth is to spread the word of God to help others develop and grow.
PeacefulChaos
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8/4/2014 5:17:48 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/4/2014 3:37:52 PM, Hematite12 wrote:

And... where's the good result that comes of brutality to children?

I do not know what good results of that. The only thing I can think of is that, like the tornado, it brings people together to put down such evils from happening again. Is the good that results from this greater than the evil done? I have no idea. It's bad for the child and it's bad for the person who committed the crime, that's for certain.

I didn't necessarily agree with the article to begin with, though.
irreverent_god
Posts: 1,378
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8/4/2014 8:12:15 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/4/2014 5:17:48 PM, PeacefulChaos wrote:
At 8/4/2014 3:37:52 PM, Hematite12 wrote:

And... where's the good result that comes of brutality to children?

I do not know what good results of that. The only thing I can think of is that, like the tornado, it brings people together to put down such evils from happening again. Is the good that results from this greater than the evil done? I have no idea. It's bad for the child and it's bad for the person who committed the crime, that's for certain.

I didn't necessarily agree with the article to begin with, though.

How, precisely, does people being brought together "put down" a tornado from happening again? Is human solidarity a weather control device? Is human solidarity a preventative measure against the pedophile rapist/murderer/priest committing another sick and twisted act of inhumanity upon another child? You're grasping at straws, and you know it.
Logic and Reason are the precursor to Justice.
Faith and zealotry are the precursor to Folly.
sovereigngracereigns
Posts: 585
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8/4/2014 8:29:29 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/4/2014 8:12:15 PM, irreverent_god wrote:
At 8/4/2014 5:17:48 PM, PeacefulChaos wrote:
At 8/4/2014 3:37:52 PM, Hematite12 wrote:

And... where's the good result that comes of brutality to children?

I do not know what good results of that. The only thing I can think of is that, like the tornado, it brings people together to put down such evils from happening again. Is the good that results from this greater than the evil done? I have no idea. It's bad for the child and it's bad for the person who committed the crime, that's for certain.

I didn't necessarily agree with the article to begin with, though.

How, precisely, does people being brought together "put down" a tornado from happening again? Is human solidarity a weather control device? Is human solidarity a preventative measure against the pedophile rapist/murderer/priest committing another sick and twisted act of inhumanity upon another child? You're grasping at straws, and you know it.

Yes, it IS grasping at straws.

The fact is, evil exists in the world. And either there IS NO GOD, or GOD USES EVIL for GOOD.

I maintain that God uses evil for good.
bornofgod
Posts: 11,322
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8/4/2014 8:42:35 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/4/2014 12:38:13 PM, sovereigngracereigns wrote:
I came across this article today, "The Problem of Evil Defined and Refuted." (link: http://www.imperishableinheritance.com... )

It is primarily for Christians interested in apologetics, but I think atheists and others would benefit from reading this as well.

PLEASE NOTE:
I do not know who the author is, and I am not familiar with the website it's posted on.
Therefore, I am not, in any way, endorsing the author or the website it's posted on.

I am, however, endorsing the article.
I agree with the content, and highly recommend it.


Just to give a summary of it's content, the author first answers the question: "What is The Problem of Evil?"

Then the author speaks briefly about the use of "theodicies" (attempts to reconcile evil with a good, loving, omnipotent God).

Then the author refutes two commonly used theodicies: "The Free Will Theodicy", and "Denying Omniscience or Omnipotence."

Finally, the author offers "A Proper Theodicy", citing three Biblical examples -- The story of Joseph, the story of Job, and the crucifixion of Christ.

The author is someone who has no idea who our invisible Creator is and why He created the "tree of the knowledge of good and evil".
PeacefulChaos
Posts: 2,610
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8/4/2014 9:46:56 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/4/2014 8:12:15 PM, irreverent_god wrote:
At 8/4/2014 5:17:48 PM, PeacefulChaos wrote:
At 8/4/2014 3:37:52 PM, Hematite12 wrote:

And... where's the good result that comes of brutality to children?

I do not know what good results of that. The only thing I can think of is that, like the tornado, it brings people together to put down such evils from happening again. Is the good that results from this greater than the evil done? I have no idea. It's bad for the child and it's bad for the person who committed the crime, that's for certain.

I didn't necessarily agree with the article to begin with, though.

How, precisely, does people being brought together "put down" a tornado from happening again?

It doesn't. I'm not sure where you got this idea from.

When a tornado destroys a community, the community rebuilds again and grows stronger with both help from the members of the community and other communities. This contains virtues such as service, compassion, kindness, determination, and so on. The purpose of this is obviously not to stop a tornado from coming again. If you don't see the purpose in this, then you need to think just a little harder.

Is human solidarity a weather control device? Is human solidarity a preventative measure against the pedophile rapist/murderer/priest committing another sick and twisted act of inhumanity upon another child? You're grasping at straws, and you know it.

No, I'm interpreting an article that was posted.
steffon66
Posts: 240
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8/4/2014 11:18:51 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/4/2014 4:04:08 PM, sovereigngracereigns wrote:
At 8/4/2014 3:35:14 PM, PeacefulChaos wrote:
At 8/4/2014 12:44:26 PM, Hematite12 wrote:

The case remains that children are raped and tortured, and their genitals mutilated. It doesn't matter if the intentions of the perpetrator are good or bad. How does that change anything? This is utterly incoherent.

I believe that the article wasn't referring to the intentions of the perpetrator, but the overall intentions of God. For example -

A tornado hits a small town. While people die and homes are destroyed, the community and outside world learns to unify together to help rebuild their houses and their lives, thus spreading unity and compassion through the world. People learn to bond and grow closer together due to this horrible event.

Of course, that's just an example. I am simply attempting to interpret what the article meant.

Umm....

Well, you got the basic idea of how God uses evil for good, but God's purpose is not to have people holding hands and singing "Kumbaya."

God's purpose is to glorify himself in the salvation of elect sinners, through the finished work of the Lord Jesus Christ.

And so, everything that comes to pass in time was foreordained by God for his glory, and for the good of his elect.

EVERYTHING.

Every horrible, sinful act that people commit in this sin-cursed world is ordained of God toward his purpose of saving his people.

It's a mystery to us, at times, because we can't see how things like rape and torture could possibly be used for good.
But the Word of God declares, in Romans 8:28,that "all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose."

so what your saying is that we dont have free will? when you say everything happens for a reason which is the jist of what your saying your saying everything happens according to his plan. and if everything happens according to his plan then we do what we do because god planned for us to do it and not because we chose to do it. our will cant be both gods will and ours. and if everything is ordained by god then why do we go to hell for doing evil things if god made us do it and if its happening for a good reason? im not trying to be an as$ im just curious as to how we can have free will and how everything can happen for a reason at the same time.
sovereigngracereigns
Posts: 585
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8/5/2014 12:40:41 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/4/2014 11:18:51 PM, steffon66 wrote:
At 8/4/2014 4:04:08 PM, sovereigngracereigns wrote:

God's purpose is to glorify himself in the salvation of elect sinners, through the finished work of the Lord Jesus Christ.

And so, everything that comes to pass in time was foreordained by God for his glory, and for the good of his elect.

EVERYTHING.

Every horrible, sinful act that people commit in this sin-cursed world is ordained of God toward his purpose of saving his people.

It's a mystery to us, at times, because we can't see how things like rape and torture could possibly be used for good.
But the Word of God declares, in Romans 8:28,that "all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose."

so what your saying is that we dont have free will? when you say everything happens for a reason which is the jist of what your saying your saying everything happens according to his plan. and if everything happens according to his plan then we do what we do because god planned for us to do it and not because we chose to do it. our will cant be both gods will and ours. and if everything is ordained by god then why do we go to hell for doing evil things if god made us do it and if its happening for a good reason? im not trying to be an as$ im just curious as to how we can have free will and how everything can happen for a reason at the same time.

What I'm saying is what the Scriptures say, that everything happens according to God's plan.

So whenever you, by your own wicked will, do anything, it ALWAYS inadvertently fulfills God's plan of redemption.

God only allows you to do what fulfills his plan, and he restrains whatever else you would have done.

So, just like men crucified Jesus by their own wicked wills, God USED their wicked wills to redeem his people.

And everything else works that way.

Your will is not free, for two reasons:

1. You are, by nature, a slave to sin, so that EVERYTHING you DO is sin.

2. You are in subjection to the will and purpose of God, so that he only allows you to do that which fulfills his purpose.

So that your rebellion and unbelief, for example, does not trump God's will in the least.
If you die without faith in Christ and go to Hell, it won't cause an infinitesimally small wrinkle in God's plan.

It just means that God never intended to save you.
Rather, he gave you just the punishment you deserved.

You asked:
"...and if everything is ordained by god then why do we go to hell for doing evil things if god made us do it and if its happening for a good reason?

First of all, God is not responsible for your sin. YOU are responsible for your sin.

But it's true that, in judgment, God HARDENS the hearts of those he does not intend to save, in order to use their evil deeds for good.

That is, he does not restrain their evil, but lets them do what they want to do.

For example, God hardened the Pharaoh's heart, and Pharaoh went after the Israelites, so that God's power would be demonstrated in saving the Israelites and drowning Pharaoh and his army in the Red Sea.

Is that fair?
Does God have the RIGHT to do that?
Why is Pharaoh still to blame for his sins?

The Apostle Paul answers it THIS way, in Romans 9:17-18,

17 For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth."
18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.


So God hardened Pharaoh's heart, and let him do what he wanted.
He would not let the Israelites go.

Then, in the next verses, Paul answers your question: "Why does God still find fault?"

Verses 19-24:


19 You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?"
20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, "Why have you made me like this?"
21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?

22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?


In other words, no matter what you do, you cannot trump God's will.

You will ALWAYS inadvertently fulfill it.

God will save his people, and the rest will go to Hell.
And there's nothing you can do to change that.

So you might as well just surrender, and seek terms of peace.
And the only terms of peace are to bow down to his Son.

If you will lay down your weapons of warfare against God, he will have mercy on you, for CHRIST'S sake.

Christ said:
37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.
38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.
40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day."
(John 6:37-40)

Listen, this may be your last chance.

Bow to Christ, or be destroyed.
SEEK his MERCY, and I promise you will find it.

27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment,
28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many.
To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.
(Hebrews 9:27-28)

Listen,

The Gospel of Christ is the Good News of salvation accomplished by the Lord Jesus Christ.

By his one offering of himself, as a sacrifice for sin, he satisfied the justice of God for his people.

And after he died, and was buried, he rose again from the grave, the sins of his people having been put away for ever.

And now he sits upon his throne in Heaven, giving eternal life to whomever he will.

He sends his Spirit into the hearts of all those for whom he died, under the preaching of his glorious Gospel.

And they're given life and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, and God accepts them and adopts them as "sons."

My friend,

At this time, you are lost, but if God is pleased to save you, there is NOTHING that can stop him from saving you.

You are COMMANDED to COME, and you are WELCOME to COME.
Christ came "not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance." (Mark 2:17)

Call on his name, and confess that you're nothing but sin, and you will find MERCY in Christ.

"For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;" (Rom. 3:23)
BUT:
"...whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved."(Rom. 10:13)
irreverent_god
Posts: 1,378
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8/5/2014 8:13:50 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/4/2014 8:29:29 PM, sovereigngracereigns wrote:
At 8/4/2014 8:12:15 PM, irreverent_god wrote:
At 8/4/2014 5:17:48 PM, PeacefulChaos wrote:
At 8/4/2014 3:37:52 PM, Hematite12 wrote:

And... where's the good result that comes of brutality to children?

I do not know what good results of that. The only thing I can think of is that, like the tornado, it brings people together to put down such evils from happening again. Is the good that results from this greater than the evil done? I have no idea. It's bad for the child and it's bad for the person who committed the crime, that's for certain.

I didn't necessarily agree with the article to begin with, though.

How, precisely, does people being brought together "put down" a tornado from happening again? Is human solidarity a weather control device? Is human solidarity a preventative measure against the pedophile rapist/murderer/priest committing another sick and twisted act of inhumanity upon another child? You're grasping at straws, and you know it.

Yes, it IS grasping at straws.

The fact is, evil exists in the world. And either there IS NO GOD, or GOD USES EVIL for GOOD.

I maintain that God uses evil for good.

You forgot that there's a third option:

There may be a god, as yet, undiscovered. This gawd is absolutely nothing like the petulant, spoiled, self-absorbed little monster of the 'holy' books of human history. Humans have simply not encountered him/her/it, yet.

I'm sorry for your poor choice.
Logic and Reason are the precursor to Justice.
Faith and zealotry are the precursor to Folly.
irreverent_god
Posts: 1,378
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8/5/2014 8:19:58 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/4/2014 9:46:56 PM, PeacefulChaos wrote:
At 8/4/2014 8:12:15 PM, irreverent_god wrote:
At 8/4/2014 5:17:48 PM, PeacefulChaos wrote:
At 8/4/2014 3:37:52 PM, Hematite12 wrote:

And... where's the good result that comes of brutality to children?

I do not know what good results of that. The only thing I can think of is that, like the tornado, it brings people together to put down such evils from happening again. Is the good that results from this greater than the evil done? I have no idea. It's bad for the child and it's bad for the person who committed the crime, that's for certain.

I didn't necessarily agree with the article to begin with, though.

How, precisely, does people being brought together "put down" a tornado from happening again?

It doesn't. I'm not sure where you got this idea from.

From your entry, above... Your wording could have been chosen better...

When a tornado destroys a community, the community rebuilds again and grows stronger with both help from the members of the community and other communities. This contains virtues such as service, compassion, kindness, determination, and so on. The purpose of this is obviously not to stop a tornado from coming again. If you don't see the purpose in this, then you need to think just a little harder.

I absolutely see not only the benefit but the need for these virtues. What I fail to see is where the need for a gawd fits into this. All of this is possible, without a gawd.

Is human solidarity a weather control device? Is human solidarity a preventative measure against the pedophile rapist/murderer/priest committing another sick and twisted act of inhumanity upon another child? You're grasping at straws, and you know it.

No, I'm interpreting an article that was posted.

There is no need for any gawd, in figuring out the problem of evil. The problem of evil is human, in origin, as is the gawd for which so many are clamoring to have "save" them. Gawd is no more necessary than evil. Humans cling to it, anyway.
Logic and Reason are the precursor to Justice.
Faith and zealotry are the precursor to Folly.
sovereigngracereigns
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8/5/2014 10:44:50 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/5/2014 8:19:58 AM, irreverent_god wrote:
At 8/4/2014 9:46:56 PM, PeacefulChaos wrote:
At 8/4/2014 8:12:15 PM, irreverent_god wrote:
At 8/4/2014 5:17:48 PM, PeacefulChaos wrote:
At 8/4/2014 3:37:52 PM, Hematite12 wrote:

And... where's the good result that comes of brutality to children?

I do not know what good results of that. The only thing I can think of is that, like the tornado, it brings people together to put down such evils from happening again. Is the good that results from this greater than the evil done? I have no idea. It's bad for the child and it's bad for the person who committed the crime, that's for certain.

I didn't necessarily agree with the article to begin with, though.

How, precisely, does people being brought together "put down" a tornado from happening again?

It doesn't. I'm not sure where you got this idea from.

From your entry, above... Your wording could have been chosen better...

When a tornado destroys a community, the community rebuilds again and grows stronger with both help from the members of the community and other communities. This contains virtues such as service, compassion, kindness, determination, and so on. The purpose of this is obviously not to stop a tornado from coming again. If you don't see the purpose in this, then you need to think just a little harder.

I absolutely see not only the benefit but the need for these virtues. What I fail to see is where the need for a gawd fits into this. All of this is possible, without a gawd.

Is human solidarity a weather control device? Is human solidarity a preventative measure against the pedophile rapist/murderer/priest committing another sick and twisted act of inhumanity upon another child? You're grasping at straws, and you know it.

No, I'm interpreting an article that was posted.

There is no need for any gawd, in figuring out the problem of evil. The problem of evil is human, in origin, as is the gawd for which so many are clamoring to have "save" them. Gawd is no more necessary than evil. Humans cling to it, anyway.

It's interesting how people are willing to admit that evil originates in humans, yet they don't feel the slightest need for mercy or forgiveness -- as if it's just OK to be EVIL.

Well, that proves Romans 1 to be true once again -- People KNOW they're guilty before God, they just SUPPRESS that truth in unrighteousness.
irreverent_god
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8/5/2014 10:58:22 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/5/2014 10:44:50 AM, sovereigngracereigns wrote:
At 8/5/2014 8:19:58 AM, irreverent_god wrote:
At 8/4/2014 9:46:56 PM, PeacefulChaos wrote:
At 8/4/2014 8:12:15 PM, irreverent_god wrote:
At 8/4/2014 5:17:48 PM, PeacefulChaos wrote:
At 8/4/2014 3:37:52 PM, Hematite12 wrote:

And... where's the good result that comes of brutality to children?

I do not know what good results of that. The only thing I can think of is that, like the tornado, it brings people together to put down such evils from happening again. Is the good that results from this greater than the evil done? I have no idea. It's bad for the child and it's bad for the person who committed the crime, that's for certain.

I didn't necessarily agree with the article to begin with, though.

How, precisely, does people being brought together "put down" a tornado from happening again?

It doesn't. I'm not sure where you got this idea from.

From your entry, above... Your wording could have been chosen better...

When a tornado destroys a community, the community rebuilds again and grows stronger with both help from the members of the community and other communities. This contains virtues such as service, compassion, kindness, determination, and so on. The purpose of this is obviously not to stop a tornado from coming again. If you don't see the purpose in this, then you need to think just a little harder.

I absolutely see not only the benefit but the need for these virtues. What I fail to see is where the need for a gawd fits into this. All of this is possible, without a gawd.

Is human solidarity a weather control device? Is human solidarity a preventative measure against the pedophile rapist/murderer/priest committing another sick and twisted act of inhumanity upon another child? You're grasping at straws, and you know it.

No, I'm interpreting an article that was posted.

There is no need for any gawd, in figuring out the problem of evil. The problem of evil is human, in origin, as is the gawd for which so many are clamoring to have "save" them. Gawd is no more necessary than evil. Humans cling to it, anyway.

It's interesting how people are willing to admit that evil originates in humans, yet they don't feel the slightest need for mercy or forgiveness -- as if it's just OK to be EVIL.

Well, that proves Romans 1 to be true once again -- People KNOW they're guilty before God, they just SUPPRESS that truth in unrighteousness.

If I commit a wrong, it's up to the person that I have wronged to forgive me. If it's a criminal offense, it's up to law enforcement to bring me to justice. If I am repentant of the wrong I commit, I am morally obligated to make amends TO THE OFFENDED PARTY. Your gawd is an unnecessary insertion into this chain of events. It's not "OK to be EVIL..." It is, however, OK to bypass the need for a gawd. That's the problem with vicarious redemption: Any wrong that was done CANNOT be erased. It was done. It can be forgiven, but only by the person wronged.
Logic and Reason are the precursor to Justice.
Faith and zealotry are the precursor to Folly.
PeacefulChaos
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8/5/2014 11:03:39 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/5/2014 8:19:58 AM, irreverent_god wrote:

From your entry, above... Your wording could have been chosen better...

You're right, sorry about that.

I absolutely see not only the benefit but the need for these virtues. What I fail to see is where the need for a gawd fits into this. All of this is possible, without a gawd.

Okay. I'm not arguing for his existence, it's just a way of refuting the PoE that the article showed.
irreverent_god
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8/5/2014 11:08:56 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/5/2014 11:03:39 AM, PeacefulChaos wrote:
At 8/5/2014 8:19:58 AM, irreverent_god wrote:

From your entry, above... Your wording could have been chosen better...

You're right, sorry about that.

I absolutely see not only the benefit but the need for these virtues. What I fail to see is where the need for a gawd fits into this. All of this is possible, without a gawd.

Okay. I'm not arguing for his existence, it's just a way of refuting the PoE that the article showed.

I'm no more a proponent of the PoE argument against than I am of the "Objective Morality" argument in favor.
Logic and Reason are the precursor to Justice.
Faith and zealotry are the precursor to Folly.
bulproof
Posts: 25,238
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8/5/2014 11:14:20 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/5/2014 10:44:50 AM, sovereigngracereigns wrote:
It's interesting how people are willing to admit that evil originates in humans, yet they don't feel the slightest need for mercy or forgiveness -- as if it's just OK to be EVIL.
This from the guy who claims that EVERYTHING is part of god's plan.

Really? Fukin' wake up.

Why doesn't his insane god BEG forgiveness?
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
sovereigngracereigns
Posts: 585
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8/5/2014 11:34:56 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/5/2014 11:14:20 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 8/5/2014 10:44:50 AM, sovereigngracereigns wrote:
It's interesting how people are willing to admit that evil originates in humans, yet they don't feel the slightest need for mercy or forgiveness -- as if it's just OK to be EVIL.
This from the guy who claims that EVERYTHING is part of god's plan.

Really? Fukin' wake up.

Why doesn't his insane god BEG forgiveness?

Who are YOU to accuse GOD of unrighteousness?

HE's the POTTER, and YOU are just CLAY.

20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, "Why have you made me like this?"
21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?
(Romans 9:20-21)

You can kick and scream, and accuse God all you want. But your fate is in his hands, and you WILL BOW.

You WILL BOW and CONFESS that he's RIGHT to CONDEMN.
And that he's RIGHT to FORGIVE whom he will.

You WILL BOW and CONFESS that JESUS CHRIST is LORD, to the everlasting glory of God the Father.

God WILL deal with your sins, either in MERCY or in JUDGMENT.

So DO YOU WANT MERCY or NOT?

God is merciful and gracious to those who trust him, and to all those who call upon his name.

"For you, Lord, are good, and ready to forgive; and plenteous in mercy to all them that call on you." (Psalms 86:5)
steffon66
Posts: 240
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8/5/2014 12:19:43 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/5/2014 12:40:41 AM, sovereigngracereigns wrote:
At 8/4/2014 11:18:51 PM, steffon66 wrote:
At 8/4/2014 4:04:08 PM, sovereigngracereigns wrote:

God's purpose is to glorify himself in the salvation of elect sinners, through the finished work of the Lord Jesus Christ.

And so, everything that comes to pass in time was foreordained by God for his glory, and for the good of his elect.

EVERYTHING.

Every horrible, sinful act that people commit in this sin-cursed world is ordained of God toward his purpose of saving his people.

It's a mystery to us, at times, because we can't see how things like rape and torture could possibly be used for good.
But the Word of God declares, in Romans 8:28,that "all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose."

so what your saying is that we dont have free will? when you say everything happens for a reason which is the jist of what your saying your saying everything happens according to his plan. and if everything happens according to his plan then we do what we do because god planned for us to do it and not because we chose to do it. our will cant be both gods will and ours. and if everything is ordained by god then why do we go to hell for doing evil things if god made us do it and if its happening for a good reason? im not trying to be an as$ im just curious as to how we can have free will and how everything can happen for a reason at the same time.

What I'm saying is what the Scriptures say, that everything happens according to God's plan.

So whenever you, by your own wicked will, do anything, it ALWAYS inadvertently fulfills God's plan of redemption.

God only allows you to do what fulfills his plan, and he restrains whatever else you would have done.

So, just like men crucified Jesus by their own wicked wills, God USED their wicked wills to redeem his people.

And everything else works that way.

Your will is not free, for two reasons:

1. You are, by nature, a slave to sin, so that EVERYTHING you DO is sin.

2. You are in subjection to the will and purpose of God, so that he only allows you to do that which fulfills his purpose.

So that your rebellion and unbelief, for example, does not trump God's will in the least.
If you die without faith in Christ and go to Hell, it won't cause an infinitesimally small wrinkle in God's plan.

It just means that God never intended to save you.
Rather, he gave you just the punishment you deserved.


You asked:
"...and if everything is ordained by god then why do we go to hell for doing evil things if god made us do it and if its happening for a good reason?

First of all, God is not responsible for your sin. YOU are responsible for your sin.

But it's true that, in judgment, God HARDENS the hearts of those he does not intend to save, in order to use their evil deeds for good.

That is, he does not restrain their evil, but lets them do what they want to do.

For example, God hardened the Pharaoh's heart, and Pharaoh went after the Israelites, so that God's power would be demonstrated in saving the Israelites and drowning Pharaoh and his army in the Red Sea.

Is that fair?
Does God have the RIGHT to do that?
Why is Pharaoh still to blame for his sins?

The Apostle Paul answers it THIS way, in Romans 9:17-18,

17 For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth."
18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.


So God hardened Pharaoh's heart, and let him do what he wanted.
He would not let the Israelites go.

Then, in the next verses, Paul answers your question: "Why does God still find fault?"

Verses 19-24:


19 You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?"
20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, "Why have you made me like this?"
21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?

22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?


In other words, no matter what you do, you cannot trump God's will.

You will ALWAYS inadvertently fulfill it.

God will save his people, and the rest will go to Hell.
And there's nothing you can do to change that.

So you might as well just surrender, and seek terms of peace.
And the only terms of peace are to bow down to his Son.

If you will lay down your weapons of warfare against God, he will have mercy on you, for CHRIST'S sake.

Christ said:
37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.
38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.
40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day."
(John 6:37-40)

Listen, this may be your last chance.

Bow to Christ, or be destroyed.
SEEK his MERCY, and I promise you will find it.

27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment,
28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many.
To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.
(Hebrews 9:27-28)

Listen,

The Gospel of Christ is the Good News of salvation accomplished by the Lord Jesus Christ.

By his one offering of himself, as a sacrifice for sin, he satisfied the justice of God for his people.

And after he died, and was buried, he rose again from the grave, the sins of his people having been put away for ever.

And now he sits upon his throne in Heaven, giving eternal life to whomever he will.

He sends his Spirit into the hearts of all those for whom he died, under the preaching of his glorious Gospel.

And they're given life and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, and God accepts them and adopts them as "sons."

My friend,

At this time, you are lost, but if God is pleased to save you, there is NOTHING that can stop him from saving you.

You are COMMANDED to COME, and you are WELCOME to COME.
Christ came "not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance." (Mark 2:17)

ok smart one so if we dont have free will and we arent in control then why do we go to hell for something that isnt our faults as you said we are all doing gods will only which would make us perfect? if we dont have free will then we dont deserve to go to hell for not being a christian because we cant choose to be a christian as it isnt gods plan for us and everything is foreordained by god. so your argument just collapsed on itself.
PGA
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8/5/2014 12:37:34 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/4/2014 5:17:48 PM, PeacefulChaos wrote:
At 8/4/2014 3:37:52 PM, Hematite12 wrote:

And... where's the good result that comes of brutality to children?

I do not know what good results of that. The only thing I can think of is that, like the tornado, it brings people together to put down such evils from happening again. Is the good that results from this greater than the evil done? I have no idea. It's bad for the child and it's bad for the person who committed the crime, that's for certain.

I didn't necessarily agree with the article to begin with, though.

The good that comes from it is that people see the evil in the world and look for an explanation and solution to it. It is funny how that moral compass is present in most of us. Man is in a quandary without God. How does he get to determine good?

The problem is how can evil be accounted for and justified if there is no objective reference point or ideal measure or goodness - a best? It can't be justified, just enforced by forceful coercion, a "might makes right" policy. It becomes the whim of each subjective person holding his particular belief as to what evil is or the combined effort of people holding similar beliefs and imposing them on others and nothing more without God. Some like to rape and torture and others do not. Some want a society in which the age of consent is eradicated - i.e., NAMBLA. Some want a society in which polygamy is accepted. Some want a global acceptance of gay marriage. Some want to give women the "right to choose" concerning abortion. Hitler preferred a race without what he thought were the morally and genetically inferior, hence the death camps and scientific experiments on such as these. Stalin eradicated tens of millions. Mao the same. It depends on who comes to power and the agenda they push. Without an objective, universal, absolute, unchanging measure - i.e., God - we are at the mercy of relative, limited human beings trying to push their agenda on others, but don't try to argue that what they do is good because it 'benefits' the greater majority. How do you know it benefits the greater majority in an evolutionary, dog eat dog world. We, in North America, have the luxury of a relatively easy life with an abundance of food. If that life style was disrupted by a global communications failure where nothing electrical worked I think you would find people took what they needed to survive by force. It would no longer be for the greater good of everyone, just those in your immediate family. We see this kind of behavior during hurricanes and natural disasters where there is looting and rioting in order to get what is needed.

Peter
PGA
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8/5/2014 12:47:28 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/4/2014 11:18:51 PM, steffon66 wrote:
At 8/4/2014 4:04:08 PM, sovereigngracereigns wrote:
At 8/4/2014 3:35:14 PM, PeacefulChaos wrote:
At 8/4/2014 12:44:26 PM, Hematite12 wrote:

The case remains that children are raped and tortured, and their genitals mutilated. It doesn't matter if the intentions of the perpetrator are good or bad. How does that change anything? This is utterly incoherent.

I believe that the article wasn't referring to the intentions of the perpetrator, but the overall intentions of God. For example -

A tornado hits a small town. While people die and homes are destroyed, the community and outside world learns to unify together to help rebuild their houses and their lives, thus spreading unity and compassion through the world. People learn to bond and grow closer together due to this horrible event.

Of course, that's just an example. I am simply attempting to interpret what the article meant.

Umm....

Well, you got the basic idea of how God uses evil for good, but God's purpose is not to have people holding hands and singing "Kumbaya."

God's purpose is to glorify himself in the salvation of elect sinners, through the finished work of the Lord Jesus Christ.

And so, everything that comes to pass in time was foreordained by God for his glory, and for the good of his elect.

EVERYTHING.

Every horrible, sinful act that people commit in this sin-cursed world is ordained of God toward his purpose of saving his people.

It's a mystery to us, at times, because we can't see how things like rape and torture could possibly be used for good.
But the Word of God declares, in Romans 8:28,that "all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose."

so what your saying is that we dont have free will? when you say everything happens for a reason which is the jist of what your saying your saying everything happens according to his plan. and if everything happens according to his plan then we do what we do because god planned for us to do it and not because we chose to do it. our will cant be both gods will and ours. and if everything is ordained by god then why do we go to hell for doing evil things if god made us do it and if its happening for a good reason? im not trying to be an as$ im just curious as to how we can have free will and how everything can happen for a reason at the same time.

There is a difference between having a free will and having a will. Either way you are the one choosing. The difference is with a free will nothing else influences your decision. Without a free will you are in bondage to what influences you. Adam had a free will, we do not. He had the ability to choose to sin or not to sin. He chose to sin. We are not free from sin. If you think so the try to go one day without breaking one of the Ten Commandments. You will quickly find your will is not as free as you thought, yet you still choose. Our wills are determined by our preferences, our environments, our parents, our cultures, our nature. When we look at an issue we are already influenced by a number of different factors.

Peter
steffon66
Posts: 240
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8/5/2014 1:39:17 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/5/2014 12:47:28 PM, PGA wrote:
At 8/4/2014 11:18:51 PM, steffon66 wrote:
At 8/4/2014 4:04:08 PM, sovereigngracereigns wrote:
At 8/4/2014 3:35:14 PM, PeacefulChaos wrote:
At 8/4/2014 12:44:26 PM, Hematite12 wrote:

The case remains that children are raped and tortured, and their genitals mutilated. It doesn't matter if the intentions of the perpetrator are good or bad. How does that change anything? This is utterly incoherent.

I believe that the article wasn't referring to the intentions of the perpetrator, but the overall intentions of God. For example -

A tornado hits a small town. While people die and homes are destroyed, the community and outside world learns to unify together to help rebuild their houses and their lives, thus spreading unity and compassion through the world. People learn to bond and grow closer together due to this horrible event.

Of course, that's just an example. I am simply attempting to interpret what the article meant.

Umm....

Well, you got the basic idea of how God uses evil for good, but God's purpose is not to have people holding hands and singing "Kumbaya."

God's purpose is to glorify himself in the salvation of elect sinners, through the finished work of the Lord Jesus Christ.

And so, everything that comes to pass in time was foreordained by God for his glory, and for the good of his elect.

EVERYTHING.

Every horrible, sinful act that people commit in this sin-cursed world is ordained of God toward his purpose of saving his people.

It's a mystery to us, at times, because we can't see how things like rape and torture could possibly be used for good.
But the Word of God declares, in Romans 8:28,that "all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose."

so what your saying is that we dont have free will? when you say everything happens for a reason which is the jist of what your saying your saying everything happens according to his plan. and if everything happens according to his plan then we do what we do because god planned for us to do it and not because we chose to do it. our will cant be both gods will and ours. and if everything is ordained by god then why do we go to hell for doing evil things if god made us do it and if its happening for a good reason? im not trying to be an as$ im just curious as to how we can have free will and how everything can happen for a reason at the same time.

There is a difference between having a free will and having a will. Either way you are the one choosing. The difference is with a free will nothing else influences your decision. Without a free will you are in bondage to what influences you. Adam had a free will, we do not. He had the ability to choose to sin or not to sin. He chose to sin. We are not free from sin. If you think so the try to go one day without breaking one of the Ten Commandments. You will quickly find your will is not as free as you thought, yet you still choose. Our wills are determined by our preferences, our environments, our parents, our cultures, our nature. When we look at an issue we are already influenced by a number of different factors.

Peter

no if we cant stray away from gods plan then we arent in control and we arent choosing anything and if we dont have free will then we do act under the constraints of necessity and FATE which means we are not in control and we dont really choose anything so you dont know what your talking about. ive done a ton of research of free will and you dont even know the definition of free will apparently. your contradicting yourself and i can see now that it would be pointless discussing this with you any further. if we dont have free will we dont choose anything. and if god is in control and everything happens because he wants it to happen then we do what we do because god chose for us to do it and not because we chose to do it. we cant just coinsidentally choose to do exactly what god wants us to do. our will cant be our will and gods will at the same time because if he gave us free will we would most certainly not stick to his plan with every single thing that we do or even with most of what we do. so your an idiot who needs to learn the definition of free will and substitute some focussed independent thought for your nebulous group think.
PGA
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8/5/2014 4:32:06 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/5/2014 1:39:17 PM, steffon66 wrote:
At 8/5/2014 12:47:28 PM, PGA wrote:
At 8/4/2014 11:18:51 PM, steffon66 wrote:
At 8/4/2014 4:04:08 PM, sovereigngracereigns wrote:
At 8/4/2014 3:35:14 PM, PeacefulChaos wrote:
At 8/4/2014 12:44:26 PM, Hematite12 wrote:

The case remains that children are raped and tortured, and their genitals mutilated. It doesn't matter if the intentions of the perpetrator are good or bad. How does that change anything? This is utterly incoherent.

I believe that the article wasn't referring to the intentions of the perpetrator, but the overall intentions of God. For example -

A tornado hits a small town. While people die and homes are destroyed, the community and outside world learns to unify together to help rebuild their houses and their lives, thus spreading unity and compassion through the world. People learn to bond and grow closer together due to this horrible event.

Of course, that's just an example. I am simply attempting to interpret what the article meant.

Umm....

Well, you got the basic idea of how God uses evil for good, but God's purpose is not to have people holding hands and singing "Kumbaya."

God's purpose is to glorify himself in the salvation of elect sinners, through the finished work of the Lord Jesus Christ.

And so, everything that comes to pass in time was foreordained by God for his glory, and for the good of his elect.

EVERYTHING.

Every horrible, sinful act that people commit in this sin-cursed world is ordained of God toward his purpose of saving his people.

It's a mystery to us, at times, because we can't see how things like rape and torture could possibly be used for good.
But the Word of God declares, in Romans 8:28,that "all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose."

so what your saying is that we dont have free will? when you say everything happens for a reason which is the jist of what your saying your saying everything happens according to his plan. and if everything happens according to his plan then we do what we do because god planned for us to do it and not because we chose to do it. our will cant be both gods will and ours. and if everything is ordained by god then why do we go to hell for doing evil things if god made us do it and if its happening for a good reason? im not trying to be an as$ im just curious as to how we can have free will and how everything can happen for a reason at the same time.

There is a difference between having a free will and having a will. Either way you are the one choosing. The difference is with a free will nothing else influences your decision. Without a free will you are in bondage to what influences you. Adam had a free will, we do not. He had the ability to choose to sin or not to sin. He chose to sin. We are not free from sin. If you think so the try to go one day without breaking one of the Ten Commandments. You will quickly find your will is not as free as you thought, yet you still choose. Our wills are determined by our preferences, our environments, our parents, our cultures, our nature. When we look at an issue we are already influenced by a number of different factors.

Peter

no if we cant stray away from gods plan then we arent in control and we arent choosing anything and if we dont have free will then we do act under the constraints of necessity and FATE which means we are not in control and we dont really choose anything so you dont know what your talking about.

I agree with some of your thinking up to the point I underline To this I say rubbish, you make choices every day, yet you will not choose God. That is a choice. It is a choice based on you will, no one else. I do not choose for you, neither does God even though your will is influenced by a lot of hogwash.

ive done a ton of research of free will and you dont even know the definition of free will apparently. your contradicting yourself and i can see now that it would be pointless discussing this with you any further. if we dont have free will we dont choose anything.

Free will is the will to choose things unbiasedly. It is not swayed one way or the other, not laden down with thousand of unseen influences. God gave Adam, in the Garden, freedom to choose to live in paradise with Him and relationally get to know Him. Adam chose to take the one fruit God forbid him of instead. He was totally capable of either sinning or not sinning until he ate the fruit. Then his eyes were open to evil, the lack of God's light and wisdom. You are not capable of not sinning, Adam was until the Fall.

Of course you choose things. But all your choices are influenced by other things which begin with your starting presuppositions, your core beliefs. You filter everything through your limited understanding and these core principles you live by. In this way you make choices yet those choices are not free when you unpack all the baggage behind them. Your choice is always based on something behind it until you get to these core suppositions.

and if god is in control and everything happens because he wants it to happen then we do what we do because god chose for us to do it and not because we chose to do it. we cant just coinsidentally choose to do exactly what god wants us to do. our will cant be our will and gods will at the same time because if he gave us free will we would most certainly not stick to his plan with every single thing that we do or even with most of what we do. so your an idiot who needs to learn the definition of free will and substitute some focussed independent thought for your nebulous group think.

No, you are not in control, yet you have volition. You choose what you will do yet your nature will not let you come to God of your own free choice because your will is in opposition to His and in bondage to your own pride and limited knowledge. You want to do what you like to do.

Your ideas are built one upon another starting from you basic ones. These you will not compromise because to do so would change your belief and take any control you think you have out of your own hands. You would have to admit you are wrong and your pride will not let you go there. You won't go there, instead you will scream at the top of your lungs about how unjust is this God you imagine not to exist.

Will you choose to place your faith/trust in Christ and His merit? No. Your will will oppose Him in every way. It is not free to choose Him. You would have to deny your core presuppositional beliefs to choose Him and you are not willing, not able, because then you would have to release your supposed control, admit you have wronged Him, place yourself under His mercy. You are not willing to let go your thought of control, not willing to place yourself in the hands of another. Your beliefs are in control of you. You have too much baggage resting on them that hampers you from seeing Him in the light of who He is. Of your own accord you will continue to deny Him - "Did God really say?" You choose to be your own ultimate authority. You constantly say "I will choose, I am in control of my own life, I will decide on what is right and what is wrong, what is good and what is evil." You and the majority of humanity live your life as though God does not exist yet what your worldview foundation rests upon cannot be made sense of through the lens of its own worldview. You need to borrow from the very worldview you deny in order to make ultimate sense of anything.

Peter