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Prove to me that the Bible contradicts itself

Dr_Obvious
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8/5/2014 9:28:03 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
I'm not talking about little nitpicking stuff, either. I'll grant that there may be some minor errors that don't change the message of the Bible. I'm talking about the message, here. I challenge anyone to show me an example of the Bible flat out contradicting itself on doctrine.

Just for the record, showing me a verse taken out of context is not proof. Directing me to a web page with a list of contradictions is not proof. I want YOU to choose a verse, or verses, and tell me in your OWN words why it's a contradiction. Anything else will be ignored.
lifemeansevolutionisgood
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8/5/2014 9:39:35 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/5/2014 9:28:03 AM, Dr_Obvious wrote:
I'm not talking about little nitpicking stuff, either. I'll grant that there may be some minor errors that don't change the message of the Bible. I'm talking about the message, here. I challenge anyone to show me an example of the Bible flat out contradicting itself on doctrine.

Just for the record, showing me a verse taken out of context is not proof. Directing me to a web page with a list of contradictions is not proof. I want YOU to choose a verse, or verses, and tell me in your OWN words why it's a contradiction. Anything else will be ignored.

I hope you won't be as closed-minded as the rest that issue this challenge.

Romans 3:28 - Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Romans 5:1 - Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

Justification through faith alone.

James 2:24 - Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

James 2:14-26 - What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food, and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, be warmed and filled," without giving them the things needed for the body, what good is that? So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. But someone will say, "You have faith and I have works." Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.

Justification through faith + deeds.

Romans says that faith alone gets you into heaven. James says that you need faith and works. It cannot be both faith alone and faith plus works, so what is it?

It is a contradiction.
irreverent_god
Posts: 1,378
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8/5/2014 9:58:09 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/5/2014 9:28:03 AM, Dr_Obvious wrote:
I'm not talking about little nitpicking stuff, either. I'll grant that there may be some minor errors that don't change the message of the Bible. I'm talking about the message, here. I challenge anyone to show me an example of the Bible flat out contradicting itself on doctrine.

Just for the record, showing me a verse taken out of context is not proof. Directing me to a web page with a list of contradictions is not proof. I want YOU to choose a verse, or verses, and tell me in your OWN words why it's a contradiction. Anything else will be ignored.

The contradiction in this one is pretty clear and should be self-explanatory. However, since you demand an explanation, '...in your [my] OWN words why it's a contradiction,' the book of Matthew says that NOT everyone that calls 'the lord' will enter into heaven, but Romans says the exact opposite. Irrespective of the bible 'version,' it carries the SAME contradiction.

This, further, is not "nit-picky," since it goes straight to the heart of the most vile of all christian teachings: vicarious redemption. The entire purpose for the appearance of the jeebus, according to christians, carries a contradictory message, in the 'infallible," "inerrant word of gawd."

Matthew 7:21-23:
21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Rom. 10:12, 13:
12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; 13 for "Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved."

Batter up!
Logic and Reason are the precursor to Justice.
Faith and zealotry are the precursor to Folly.
bornofgod
Posts: 11,322
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8/5/2014 10:12:36 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/5/2014 9:28:03 AM, Dr_Obvious wrote:
I'm not talking about little nitpicking stuff, either. I'll grant that there may be some minor errors that don't change the message of the Bible. I'm talking about the message, here. I challenge anyone to show me an example of the Bible flat out contradicting itself on doctrine.

Just for the record, showing me a verse taken out of context is not proof. Directing me to a web page with a list of contradictions is not proof. I want YOU to choose a verse, or verses, and tell me in your OWN words why it's a contradiction. Anything else will be ignored.

The whole new testament is contrary to the prophecies of the old testament. Nowhere in the prophecies does it say that a man named Jesus would be God on earth and that he would die for our sins and that his body would resurrect into heaven. This is a lie started by antichrists and false prophets who started the false religion of Christianity ( feet of iron and clay found in the prophecies of Daniel ).
Dr_Obvious
Posts: 551
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8/5/2014 10:20:44 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/5/2014 9:39:35 AM, lifemeansevolutionisgood wrote:
At 8/5/2014 9:28:03 AM, Dr_Obvious wrote:
I'm not talking about little nitpicking stuff, either. I'll grant that there may be some minor errors that don't change the message of the Bible. I'm talking about the message, here. I challenge anyone to show me an example of the Bible flat out contradicting itself on doctrine.

Just for the record, showing me a verse taken out of context is not proof. Directing me to a web page with a list of contradictions is not proof. I want YOU to choose a verse, or verses, and tell me in your OWN words why it's a contradiction. Anything else will be ignored.

I hope you won't be as closed-minded as the rest that issue this challenge.

Romans 3:28 - Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Romans 5:1 - Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

Justification through faith alone.

James 2:24 - Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

James 2:14-26 - What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food, and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, be warmed and filled," without giving them the things needed for the body, what good is that? So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. But someone will say, "You have faith and I have works." Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.

Justification through faith + deeds.

Romans says that faith alone gets you into heaven. James says that you need faith and works. It cannot be both faith alone and faith plus works, so what is it?

It is a contradiction.

I see this one a lot. It is the result of a failure to fully understand the role of Gods Holy Spirit, in the life of a Christian. The Bible teaches that when someone accepts Christ as their Savior, a supernatural transformation takes place. Gods Holy Spirit is given to them, as a guide. If one strays from the path, the Spirit chastises them. It goads their conscience. Even though one is a Christian, they are still sinful creatures. They still sin. The Holy Spirit is there to give them the boot, when they stray from the path. The works mentioned in James 28 are not works in the sense of, if I do this or that, I'll gain Gods favor and go to Heaven. The works he's referring to are the outward manifestation of ones faith. James is emphasizing the point that genuine faith in Christ will produce a changed life and good works. James is not saying that justification is by faith plus works, but rather that a person who is truly justified by faith will have good works in his/her life. If a person claims to be a believer, but has no good works in his/her life, then he/she likely does not have genuine faith in Christ

Paul says the same thing in his writings. The good fruit believers should have in their lives is listed in Galatians 5:22-23. Immediately after telling us that we are saved by faith, not works (Ephesians 2:8-9), Paul informs us that we were created to do good works (Ephesians 2:10). Paul expects just as much of a changed life as James does: "Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come" (2 Corinthians 5:17). James and Paul do not disagree in their teaching regarding salvation. They approach the same subject from different perspectives. Paul simply emphasized that justification is by faith alone while James put emphasis on the fact that genuine faith in Christ produces good works.

Read more: http://www.gotquestions.org...
Dr_Obvious
Posts: 551
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8/5/2014 10:24:34 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/5/2014 10:12:36 AM, bornofgod wrote:
At 8/5/2014 9:28:03 AM, Dr_Obvious wrote:
I'm not talking about little nitpicking stuff, either. I'll grant that there may be some minor errors that don't change the message of the Bible. I'm talking about the message, here. I challenge anyone to show me an example of the Bible flat out contradicting itself on doctrine.

Just for the record, showing me a verse taken out of context is not proof. Directing me to a web page with a list of contradictions is not proof. I want YOU to choose a verse, or verses, and tell me in your OWN words why it's a contradiction. Anything else will be ignored.

The whole new testament is contrary to the prophecies of the old testament. Nowhere in the prophecies does it say that a man named Jesus would be God on earth and that he would die for our sins and that his body would resurrect into heaven. This is a lie started by antichrists and false prophets who started the false religion of Christianity ( feet of iron and clay found in the prophecies of Daniel ).

How about giving us one of these contradictions? I'll need the verses for them too.
RoderickSpode
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8/5/2014 10:28:59 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/5/2014 9:58:09 AM, irreverent_god wrote:
At 8/5/2014 9:28:03 AM, Dr_Obvious wrote:
I'm not talking about little nitpicking stuff, either. I'll grant that there may be some minor errors that don't change the message of the Bible. I'm talking about the message, here. I challenge anyone to show me an example of the Bible flat out contradicting itself on doctrine.

Just for the record, showing me a verse taken out of context is not proof. Directing me to a web page with a list of contradictions is not proof. I want YOU to choose a verse, or verses, and tell me in your OWN words why it's a contradiction. Anything else will be ignored.

The contradiction in this one is pretty clear and should be self-explanatory. However, since you demand an explanation, '...in your [my] OWN words why it's a contradiction,' the book of Matthew says that NOT everyone that calls 'the lord' will enter into heaven, but Romans says the exact opposite. Irrespective of the bible 'version,' it carries the SAME contradiction.

This, further, is not "nit-picky," since it goes straight to the heart of the most vile of all christian teachings: vicarious redemption. The entire purpose for the appearance of the jeebus, according to christians, carries a contradictory message, in the 'infallible," "inerrant word of gawd."

Matthew 7:21-23:
21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Rom. 10:12, 13:
12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; 13 for "Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved."

Batter up!
Jesus also stated that one must be born again to enter into Heaven. So why would someone conclude that someone who made a profession of faith but showed no signs of faith, or someone who did works, and both being rejected from Heaven were born again believers? Someone saying "Lord Lord" is not necessarily the same thing as crying out to the Lord for salvation

In Matthew there were a number of people being addressed that were religious and thought that there works and knowledge of scripture would get them into Heaven. The Apostle Paul also addressed the fact that there were false Christians which would match with Jesus' prediction that some would identify with Christianity but would be false Christians.

If we don't compare scripture with scripture, and assume Jesus is claiming that anyone who fails to accomplish humanitarian acts, then salvation would be based on a scale, or no one would be saved. Just about everybody has refused to help a street person, right?. Even if the greatest humanitarian in the world refused to take in one street person who asked for help into their home and cleaned him up, why would we assume Jesus will not use that example to say "depart from me because when you refused to help that one person, you refused to help me"?

In fact the question was asked to Jesus "who can be saved?". Jesus then indicated that it's actually quite impossible by human effort alone.

So no, we're talking about a contradiction there at all. Being a Christian does not mean there is no challenge to strive for what Paul referred to as a heavenly prize. If one is called to be a pastor, and he doesn't act upon that calling, that person is not walking in faith. Sitting back and not taking action is a problem a Christian can be guilty of. Or, there is the possibility that they are not really a Christian.
Dr_Obvious
Posts: 551
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8/5/2014 10:33:06 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/5/2014 9:58:09 AM, irreverent_god wrote:
At 8/5/2014 9:28:03 AM, Dr_Obvious wrote:
I'm not talking about little nitpicking stuff, either. I'll grant that there may be some minor errors that don't change the message of the Bible. I'm talking about the message, here. I challenge anyone to show me an example of the Bible flat out contradicting itself on doctrine.

Just for the record, showing me a verse taken out of context is not proof. Directing me to a web page with a list of contradictions is not proof. I want YOU to choose a verse, or verses, and tell me in your OWN words why it's a contradiction. Anything else will be ignored.

The contradiction in this one is pretty clear and should be self-explanatory. However, since you demand an explanation, '...in your [my] OWN words why it's a contradiction,' the book of Matthew says that NOT everyone that calls 'the lord' will enter into heaven, but Romans says the exact opposite. Irrespective of the bible 'version,' it carries the SAME contradiction.

This, further, is not "nit-picky," since it goes straight to the heart of the most vile of all christian teachings: vicarious redemption. The entire purpose for the appearance of the jeebus, according to christians, carries a contradictory message, in the 'infallible," "inerrant word of gawd."

Matthew 7:21-23:
21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Rom. 10:12, 13:
12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; 13 for "Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved."

Batter up!

Another common misconception. You are taking these verses out of context. What these verses are referring to are false Christians. They have the outward appearance, but their works are dead. You've probably met some. They claim to be Christians, yet their actions do not show it. Just saying a little prayer doesn't save you. It involves repentance. It requires a change of heart. This is what these verses are really saying. There is no contradiction.
irreverent_god
Posts: 1,378
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8/5/2014 10:47:12 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/5/2014 10:28:59 AM, RoderickSpode wrote:
At 8/5/2014 9:58:09 AM, irreverent_god wrote:
At 8/5/2014 9:28:03 AM, Dr_Obvious wrote:
I'm not talking about little nitpicking stuff, either. I'll grant that there may be some minor errors that don't change the message of the Bible. I'm talking about the message, here. I challenge anyone to show me an example of the Bible flat out contradicting itself on doctrine.

Just for the record, showing me a verse taken out of context is not proof. Directing me to a web page with a list of contradictions is not proof. I want YOU to choose a verse, or verses, and tell me in your OWN words why it's a contradiction. Anything else will be ignored.

The contradiction in this one is pretty clear and should be self-explanatory. However, since you demand an explanation, '...in your [my] OWN words why it's a contradiction,' the book of Matthew says that NOT everyone that calls 'the lord' will enter into heaven, but Romans says the exact opposite. Irrespective of the bible 'version,' it carries the SAME contradiction.

This, further, is not "nit-picky," since it goes straight to the heart of the most vile of all christian teachings: vicarious redemption. The entire purpose for the appearance of the jeebus, according to christians, carries a contradictory message, in the 'infallible," "inerrant word of gawd."

Matthew 7:21-23:
21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Rom. 10:12, 13:
12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; 13 for "Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved."

Batter up!
Jesus also stated that one must be born again to enter into Heaven. So why would someone conclude that someone who made a profession of faith but showed no signs of faith, or someone who did works, and both being rejected from Heaven were born again believers? Someone saying "Lord Lord" is not necessarily the same thing as crying out to the Lord for salvation

I think the sentence, "Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved," pretty clearly contradicts the 'spin' you just attempted to put on this. You want to add qualifiers and conditions of your own definition to words that you claim were divinely inspired? Are you an inspired prophet, now?

In Matthew there were a number of people being addressed that were religious and thought that there works and knowledge of scripture would get them into Heaven. The Apostle Paul also addressed the fact that there were false Christians which would match with Jesus' prediction that some would identify with Christianity but would be false Christians.

I will refer you to my above entry, as nothing in this paragraph furthers your position against it.

If we don't compare scripture with scripture, and assume Jesus is claiming that anyone who fails to accomplish humanitarian acts, then salvation would be based on a scale, or no one would be saved. Just about everybody has refused to help a street person, right?. Even if the greatest humanitarian in the world refused to take in one street person who asked for help into their home and cleaned him up, why would we assume Jesus will not use that example to say "depart from me because when you refused to help that one person, you refused to help me"?

Again, I will refer you to my first entry, for the same reason as in the second.

In fact the question was asked to Jesus "who can be saved?". Jesus then indicated that it's actually quite impossible by human effort alone.

So, then, Paul directly contradicted his own 'savior?'

So no, we're talking about a contradiction there at all. Being a Christian does not mean there is no challenge to strive for what Paul referred to as a heavenly prize. If one is called to be a pastor, and he doesn't act upon that calling, that person is not walking in faith. Sitting back and not taking action is a problem a Christian can be guilty of. Or, there is the possibility that they are not really a Christian.

You used a whole lot of words to say, precisely, "NU-UHHHH!" You are arguing referential meaning and interpretation of biblical scripture, much of which is quite open to exactly that. Nevertheless, I was asked to provide a contradiction. I provided one. Once again, if it is falsifiable or objectively disprovable, it's 'allegory,' or 'interpretive,' or 'metaphorical.' If it's completely outside the reach of human testing, then it's literal and concrete!

Nice try, Roderick...
Logic and Reason are the precursor to Justice.
Faith and zealotry are the precursor to Folly.
RoderickSpode
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8/5/2014 10:47:54 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/5/2014 9:58:09 AM, irreverent_god wrote:


Matthew 7:21-23:
21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Rom. 10:12, 13:
12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; 13 for "Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved."

To further expound, using the term Lord does not necessitate faithfulness. In early European history it was common to refer to someone in a high position as "Lord". Someone could call a king "Lord", and at the same time plotting to take over his thrown. It would appear that Jesus is emphasizing that referring to Him as Lord does not mean allegiance or even belief.
irreverent_god
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8/5/2014 10:52:38 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/5/2014 10:33:06 AM, Dr_Obvious wrote:
At 8/5/2014 9:58:09 AM, irreverent_god wrote:
At 8/5/2014 9:28:03 AM, Dr_Obvious wrote:
I'm not talking about little nitpicking stuff, either. I'll grant that there may be some minor errors that don't change the message of the Bible. I'm talking about the message, here. I challenge anyone to show me an example of the Bible flat out contradicting itself on doctrine.

Just for the record, showing me a verse taken out of context is not proof. Directing me to a web page with a list of contradictions is not proof. I want YOU to choose a verse, or verses, and tell me in your OWN words why it's a contradiction. Anything else will be ignored.

The contradiction in this one is pretty clear and should be self-explanatory. However, since you demand an explanation, '...in your [my] OWN words why it's a contradiction,' the book of Matthew says that NOT everyone that calls 'the lord' will enter into heaven, but Romans says the exact opposite. Irrespective of the bible 'version,' it carries the SAME contradiction.

This, further, is not "nit-picky," since it goes straight to the heart of the most vile of all christian teachings: vicarious redemption. The entire purpose for the appearance of the jeebus, according to christians, carries a contradictory message, in the 'infallible," "inerrant word of gawd."

Matthew 7:21-23:
21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Rom. 10:12, 13:
12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; 13 for "Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved."

Batter up!

Another common misconception. You are taking these verses out of context. What these verses are referring to are false Christians. They have the outward appearance, but their works are dead. You've probably met some. They claim to be Christians, yet their actions do not show it. Just saying a little prayer doesn't save you. It involves repentance. It requires a change of heart. This is what these verses are really saying. There is no contradiction.

That's a theist's favourite word, when something like this is shown: "CONTEXT!" Please see my response to RoderickSpode, as it also seems to apply to your entry... I was asked for a contradiction. I provided one. The two verses CLEARLY contradict one another. But here come the "interpretations," and all of the "contexts" in which it can be twisted to and fro, so as to appear that they do not contradict.

Again:
Testable=allegory/metaphorical/interpretive/contextual
Untestable=literal
Logic and Reason are the precursor to Justice.
Faith and zealotry are the precursor to Folly.
irreverent_god
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8/5/2014 11:00:33 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/5/2014 10:47:54 AM, RoderickSpode wrote:
At 8/5/2014 9:58:09 AM, irreverent_god wrote:


Matthew 7:21-23:
21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Rom. 10:12, 13:
12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; 13 for "Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved."

To further expound, using the term Lord does not necessitate faithfulness. In early European history it was common to refer to someone in a high position as "Lord". Someone could call a king "Lord", and at the same time plotting to take over his thrown. It would appear that Jesus is emphasizing that referring to Him as Lord does not mean allegiance or even belief.

And Paul contradicts that, in Romans.
Logic and Reason are the precursor to Justice.
Faith and zealotry are the precursor to Folly.
Dr_Obvious
Posts: 551
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8/5/2014 11:08:24 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/5/2014 10:52:38 AM, irreverent_god wrote:
At 8/5/2014 10:33:06 AM, Dr_Obvious wrote:
At 8/5/2014 9:58:09 AM, irreverent_god wrote:
At 8/5/2014 9:28:03 AM, Dr_Obvious wrote:
I'm not talking about little nitpicking stuff, either. I'll grant that there may be some minor errors that don't change the message of the Bible. I'm talking about the message, here. I challenge anyone to show me an example of the Bible flat out contradicting itself on doctrine.

Just for the record, showing me a verse taken out of context is not proof. Directing me to a web page with a list of contradictions is not proof. I want YOU to choose a verse, or verses, and tell me in your OWN words why it's a contradiction. Anything else will be ignored.

The contradiction in this one is pretty clear and should be self-explanatory. However, since you demand an explanation, '...in your [my] OWN words why it's a contradiction,' the book of Matthew says that NOT everyone that calls 'the lord' will enter into heaven, but Romans says the exact opposite. Irrespective of the bible 'version,' it carries the SAME contradiction.

This, further, is not "nit-picky," since it goes straight to the heart of the most vile of all christian teachings: vicarious redemption. The entire purpose for the appearance of the jeebus, according to christians, carries a contradictory message, in the 'infallible," "inerrant word of gawd."

Matthew 7:21-23:
21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Rom. 10:12, 13:
12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; 13 for "Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved."

Batter up!

Another common misconception. You are taking these verses out of context. What these verses are referring to are false Christians. They have the outward appearance, but their works are dead. You've probably met some. They claim to be Christians, yet their actions do not show it. Just saying a little prayer doesn't save you. It involves repentance. It requires a change of heart. This is what these verses are really saying. There is no contradiction.

That's a theist's favourite word, when something like this is shown: "CONTEXT!" Please see my response to RoderickSpode, as it also seems to apply to your entry... I was asked for a contradiction. I provided one. The two verses CLEARLY contradict one another. But here come the "interpretations," and all of the "contexts" in which it can be twisted to and fro, so as to appear that they do not contradict.

Again:
Testable=allegory/metaphorical/interpretive/contextual
Untestable=literal

Have you ever caught the tail end of, or part of a conversation, without hearing the whole thing? It would be easy to misinterpret something someone said, because you're missing the context. You were not privy to the whole conversation. You misunderstood what the person really meant. This sort of thing happens every day. Context is important in real life interactions. It's important in Scripture too. You're not just ignorant, you're WILLFULLY ignorant. You have decided that your interpretation is correct, in spite of all the learned people who have shown you that this is not the case. I'll never convince you. That's OK. I'm trying to convince people, who actually have an open mind. You are lost. Not only have you rejected God, you try to lure others away from Him, That is the very definition of evil.
lifemeansevolutionisgood
Posts: 551
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8/5/2014 11:12:31 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/5/2014 10:20:44 AM, Dr_Obvious wrote:
At 8/5/2014 9:39:35 AM, lifemeansevolutionisgood wrote:
At 8/5/2014 9:28:03 AM, Dr_Obvious wrote:
I'm not talking about little nitpicking stuff, either. I'll grant that there may be some minor errors that don't change the message of the Bible. I'm talking about the message, here. I challenge anyone to show me an example of the Bible flat out contradicting itself on doctrine.

Just for the record, showing me a verse taken out of context is not proof. Directing me to a web page with a list of contradictions is not proof. I want YOU to choose a verse, or verses, and tell me in your OWN words why it's a contradiction. Anything else will be ignored.

I hope you won't be as closed-minded as the rest that issue this challenge.

Romans 3:28 - Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Romans 5:1 - Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

Justification through faith alone.

James 2:24 - Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

James 2:14-26 - What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food, and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, be warmed and filled," without giving them the things needed for the body, what good is that? So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. But someone will say, "You have faith and I have works." Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.

Justification through faith + deeds.

Romans says that faith alone gets you into heaven. James says that you need faith and works. It cannot be both faith alone and faith plus works, so what is it?

It is a contradiction.

I see this one a lot. It is the result of a failure to fully understand the role of Gods Holy Spirit, in the life of a Christian. The Bible teaches that when someone accepts Christ as their Savior, a supernatural transformation takes place. Gods Holy Spirit is given to them, as a guide. If one strays from the path, the Spirit chastises them. It goads their conscience. Even though one is a Christian, they are still sinful creatures. They still sin. The Holy Spirit is there to give them the boot, when they stray from the path. The works mentioned in James 28 are not works in the sense of, if I do this or that, I'll gain Gods favor and go to Heaven. The works he's referring to are the outward manifestation of ones faith. James is emphasizing the point that genuine faith in Christ will produce a changed life and good works. James is not saying that justification is by faith plus works, but rather that a person who is truly justified by faith will have good works in his/her life. If a person claims to be a believer, but has no good works in his/her life, then he/she likely does not have genuine faith in Christ

Paul says the same thing in his writings. The good fruit believers should have in their lives is listed in Galatians 5:22-23. Immediately after telling us that we are saved by faith, not works (Ephesians 2:8-9), Paul informs us that we were created to do good works (Ephesians 2:10). Paul expects just as much of a changed life as James does: "Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come" (2 Corinthians 5:17). James and Paul do not disagree in their teaching regarding salvation. They approach the same subject from different perspectives. Paul simply emphasized that justification is by faith alone while James put emphasis on the fact that genuine faith in Christ produces good works.

Read more: http://www.gotquestions.org...

I guess that it was too much to ask for you to look at this objectively. I have seen that response time and time again. It is one of the most flawed "defenses" of this, and whenever I have tried to show it the person simply refuses to actually respond to anything I have said. I am going to learn from experience and give up here. It is obvious that you simply reject that there are contradictions, and therefore will make any excuse (flawed or not) in order for you not to listen to the contradiction.
irreverent_god
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8/5/2014 11:13:38 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/5/2014 11:08:24 AM, Dr_Obvious wrote:
At 8/5/2014 10:52:38 AM, irreverent_god wrote:
At 8/5/2014 10:33:06 AM, Dr_Obvious wrote:
At 8/5/2014 9:58:09 AM, irreverent_god wrote:
At 8/5/2014 9:28:03 AM, Dr_Obvious wrote:
I'm not talking about little nitpicking stuff, either. I'll grant that there may be some minor errors that don't change the message of the Bible. I'm talking about the message, here. I challenge anyone to show me an example of the Bible flat out contradicting itself on doctrine.

Just for the record, showing me a verse taken out of context is not proof. Directing me to a web page with a list of contradictions is not proof. I want YOU to choose a verse, or verses, and tell me in your OWN words why it's a contradiction. Anything else will be ignored.

The contradiction in this one is pretty clear and should be self-explanatory. However, since you demand an explanation, '...in your [my] OWN words why it's a contradiction,' the book of Matthew says that NOT everyone that calls 'the lord' will enter into heaven, but Romans says the exact opposite. Irrespective of the bible 'version,' it carries the SAME contradiction.

This, further, is not "nit-picky," since it goes straight to the heart of the most vile of all christian teachings: vicarious redemption. The entire purpose for the appearance of the jeebus, according to christians, carries a contradictory message, in the 'infallible," "inerrant word of gawd."

Matthew 7:21-23:
21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Rom. 10:12, 13:
12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; 13 for "Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved."

Batter up!

Another common misconception. You are taking these verses out of context. What these verses are referring to are false Christians. They have the outward appearance, but their works are dead. You've probably met some. They claim to be Christians, yet their actions do not show it. Just saying a little prayer doesn't save you. It involves repentance. It requires a change of heart. This is what these verses are really saying. There is no contradiction.

That's a theist's favourite word, when something like this is shown: "CONTEXT!" Please see my response to RoderickSpode, as it also seems to apply to your entry... I was asked for a contradiction. I provided one. The two verses CLEARLY contradict one another. But here come the "interpretations," and all of the "contexts" in which it can be twisted to and fro, so as to appear that they do not contradict.

Again:
Testable=allegory/metaphorical/interpretive/contextual
Untestable=literal

Have you ever caught the tail end of, or part of a conversation, without hearing the whole thing? It would be easy to misinterpret something someone said, because you're missing the context. You were not privy to the whole conversation. You misunderstood what the person really meant. This sort of thing happens every day. Context is important in real life interactions. It's important in Scripture too. You're not just ignorant, you're WILLFULLY ignorant. You have decided that your interpretation is correct, in spite of all the learned people who have shown you that this is not the case. I'll never convince you. That's OK. I'm trying to convince people, who actually have an open mind. You are lost. Not only have you rejected God, you try to lure others away from Him, That is the very definition of evil.

LOL. I am only defined as evil by theists, and only for theological reasons. The problem with your argument about context is that I have read the bible, in its entirety, more than once. You are among the last with the brain pan required to call me "ignorant," and back it up, tunnel-vision zealot... You argue from assumed and unproven authority. If I don't accept your justification, I am "ignorant" and "evil." I absolutely want to lead people away from religion... It would make the world a better place.
Logic and Reason are the precursor to Justice.
Faith and zealotry are the precursor to Folly.
Dr_Obvious
Posts: 551
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8/5/2014 11:44:00 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/5/2014 11:13:38 AM, irreverent_god wrote:
At 8/5/2014 11:08:24 AM, Dr_Obvious wrote:
At 8/5/2014 10:52:38 AM, irreverent_god wrote:
At 8/5/2014 10:33:06 AM, Dr_Obvious wrote:
At 8/5/2014 9:58:09 AM, irreverent_god wrote:
At 8/5/2014 9:28:03 AM, Dr_Obvious wrote:
I'm not talking about little nitpicking stuff, either. I'll grant that there may be some minor errors that don't change the message of the Bible. I'm talking about the message, here. I challenge anyone to show me an example of the Bible flat out contradicting itself on doctrine.

Just for the record, showing me a verse taken out of context is not proof. Directing me to a web page with a list of contradictions is not proof. I want YOU to choose a verse, or verses, and tell me in your OWN words why it's a contradiction. Anything else will be ignored.

The contradiction in this one is pretty clear and should be self-explanatory. However, since you demand an explanation, '...in your [my] OWN words why it's a contradiction,' the book of Matthew says that NOT everyone that calls 'the lord' will enter into heaven, but Romans says the exact opposite. Irrespective of the bible 'version,' it carries the SAME contradiction.

This, further, is not "nit-picky," since it goes straight to the heart of the most vile of all christian teachings: vicarious redemption. The entire purpose for the appearance of the jeebus, according to christians, carries a contradictory message, in the 'infallible," "inerrant word of gawd."

Matthew 7:21-23:
21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Rom. 10:12, 13:
12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; 13 for "Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved."

Batter up!

Another common misconception. You are taking these verses out of context. What these verses are referring to are false Christians. They have the outward appearance, but their works are dead. You've probably met some. They claim to be Christians, yet their actions do not show it. Just saying a little prayer doesn't save you. It involves repentance. It requires a change of heart. This is what these verses are really saying. There is no contradiction.

That's a theist's favourite word, when something like this is shown: "CONTEXT!" Please see my response to RoderickSpode, as it also seems to apply to your entry... I was asked for a contradiction. I provided one. The two verses CLEARLY contradict one another. But here come the "interpretations," and all of the "contexts" in which it can be twisted to and fro, so as to appear that they do not contradict.

Again:
Testable=allegory/metaphorical/interpretive/contextual
Untestable=literal

Have you ever caught the tail end of, or part of a conversation, without hearing the whole thing? It would be easy to misinterpret something someone said, because you're missing the context. You were not privy to the whole conversation. You misunderstood what the person really meant. This sort of thing happens every day. Context is important in real life interactions. It's important in Scripture too. You're not just ignorant, you're WILLFULLY ignorant. You have decided that your interpretation is correct, in spite of all the learned people who have shown you that this is not the case. I'll never convince you. That's OK. I'm trying to convince people, who actually have an open mind. You are lost. Not only have you rejected God, you try to lure others away from Him, That is the very definition of evil.

LOL. I am only defined as evil by theists, and only for theological reasons. The problem with your argument about context is that I have read the bible, in its entirety, more than once. You are among the last with the brain pan required to call me "ignorant," and back it up, tunnel-vision zealot... You argue from assumed and unproven authority. If I don't accept your justification, I am "ignorant" and "evil." I absolutely want to lead people away from religion... It would make the world a better place.

Oh, wow! You READ the Bible. There are many people that are more knowledgeable than you about the Bible. They have spent their lives STUDYING Scripture; not just reading it. Why, pray tell, should I take your word over theirs? It's painfully obvious that you have a bias, and even a hatred, of all things related to Christianity. I say YOU are the one with tunnel vision. You're opinion is meaningless, since it involves nothing more than calling your opponents clueless idiots.
irreverent_god
Posts: 1,378
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8/5/2014 11:50:00 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/5/2014 11:44:00 AM, Dr_Obvious wrote:
At 8/5/2014 11:13:38 AM, irreverent_god wrote:
At 8/5/2014 11:08:24 AM, Dr_Obvious wrote:
At 8/5/2014 10:52:38 AM, irreverent_god wrote:
At 8/5/2014 10:33:06 AM, Dr_Obvious wrote:
At 8/5/2014 9:58:09 AM, irreverent_god wrote:
At 8/5/2014 9:28:03 AM, Dr_Obvious wrote:
I'm not talking about little nitpicking stuff, either. I'll grant that there may be some minor errors that don't change the message of the Bible. I'm talking about the message, here. I challenge anyone to show me an example of the Bible flat out contradicting itself on doctrine.

Just for the record, showing me a verse taken out of context is not proof. Directing me to a web page with a list of contradictions is not proof. I want YOU to choose a verse, or verses, and tell me in your OWN words why it's a contradiction. Anything else will be ignored.

The contradiction in this one is pretty clear and should be self-explanatory. However, since you demand an explanation, '...in your [my] OWN words why it's a contradiction,' the book of Matthew says that NOT everyone that calls 'the lord' will enter into heaven, but Romans says the exact opposite. Irrespective of the bible 'version,' it carries the SAME contradiction.

This, further, is not "nit-picky," since it goes straight to the heart of the most vile of all christian teachings: vicarious redemption. The entire purpose for the appearance of the jeebus, according to christians, carries a contradictory message, in the 'infallible," "inerrant word of gawd."

Matthew 7:21-23:
21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Rom. 10:12, 13:
12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; 13 for "Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved."

Batter up!

Another common misconception. You are taking these verses out of context. What these verses are referring to are false Christians. They have the outward appearance, but their works are dead. You've probably met some. They claim to be Christians, yet their actions do not show it. Just saying a little prayer doesn't save you. It involves repentance. It requires a change of heart. This is what these verses are really saying. There is no contradiction.

That's a theist's favourite word, when something like this is shown: "CONTEXT!" Please see my response to RoderickSpode, as it also seems to apply to your entry... I was asked for a contradiction. I provided one. The two verses CLEARLY contradict one another. But here come the "interpretations," and all of the "contexts" in which it can be twisted to and fro, so as to appear that they do not contradict.

Again:
Testable=allegory/metaphorical/interpretive/contextual
Untestable=literal

Have you ever caught the tail end of, or part of a conversation, without hearing the whole thing? It would be easy to misinterpret something someone said, because you're missing the context. You were not privy to the whole conversation. You misunderstood what the person really meant. This sort of thing happens every day. Context is important in real life interactions. It's important in Scripture too. You're not just ignorant, you're WILLFULLY ignorant. You have decided that your interpretation is correct, in spite of all the learned people who have shown you that this is not the case. I'll never convince you. That's OK. I'm trying to convince people, who actually have an open mind. You are lost. Not only have you rejected God, you try to lure others away from Him, That is the very definition of evil.

LOL. I am only defined as evil by theists, and only for theological reasons. The problem with your argument about context is that I have read the bible, in its entirety, more than once. You are among the last with the brain pan required to call me "ignorant," and back it up, tunnel-vision zealot... You argue from assumed and unproven authority. If I don't accept your justification, I am "ignorant" and "evil." I absolutely want to lead people away from religion... It would make the world a better place.

Oh, wow! You READ the Bible. There are many people that are more knowledgeable than you about the Bible. They have spent their lives STUDYING Scripture; not just reading it. Why, pray tell, should I take your word over theirs? It's painfully obvious that you have a bias, and even a hatred, of all things related to Christianity. I say YOU are the one with tunnel vision. You're opinion is meaningless, since it involves nothing more than calling your opponents clueless idiots.

I spent the majority of my developmental years STUDYING the bible. It was the instrument of my rejection of christianity. One can spend their life studying something meaningless... it doesn't make that one a master of language or anything meaningful. You're almost right... I despise all religion, equally. I, however, have reasons for it. These reasons were derived from rational thought. It's not that I have a bias, it's that it takes more than 'spin' to convince me that I'm wrong...

Further, I didn't call you a "clueless idiot." It was you that first hurled the insults of "ignorant" and "evil." It's OK for you, but if I do it, I'm just mean? Oh, I get it... You have 'gawd on your side.' That makes it 'moral,' doesn't it?

Hypocritical religitard.
Logic and Reason are the precursor to Justice.
Faith and zealotry are the precursor to Folly.
Dr_Obvious
Posts: 551
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8/5/2014 12:07:56 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/5/2014 11:50:00 AM, irreverent_god wrote:
At 8/5/2014 11:44:00 AM, Dr_Obvious wrote:
At 8/5/2014 11:13:38 AM, irreverent_god wrote:
At 8/5/2014 11:08:24 AM, Dr_Obvious wrote:
At 8/5/2014 10:52:38 AM, irreverent_god wrote:
At 8/5/2014 10:33:06 AM, Dr_Obvious wrote:
At 8/5/2014 9:58:09 AM, irreverent_god wrote:
At 8/5/2014 9:28:03 AM, Dr_Obvious wrote:
I'm not talking about little nitpicking stuff, either. I'll grant that there may be some minor errors that don't change the message of the Bible. I'm talking about the message, here. I challenge anyone to show me an example of the Bible flat out contradicting itself on doctrine.

Just for the record, showing me a verse taken out of context is not proof. Directing me to a web page with a list of contradictions is not proof. I want YOU to choose a verse, or verses, and tell me in your OWN words why it's a contradiction. Anything else will be ignored.

The contradiction in this one is pretty clear and should be self-explanatory. However, since you demand an explanation, '...in your [my] OWN words why it's a contradiction,' the book of Matthew says that NOT everyone that calls 'the lord' will enter into heaven, but Romans says the exact opposite. Irrespective of the bible 'version,' it carries the SAME contradiction.

This, further, is not "nit-picky," since it goes straight to the heart of the most vile of all christian teachings: vicarious redemption. The entire purpose for the appearance of the jeebus, according to christians, carries a contradictory message, in the 'infallible," "inerrant word of gawd."

Matthew 7:21-23:
21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Rom. 10:12, 13:
12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; 13 for "Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved."

Batter up!

Another common misconception. You are taking these verses out of context. What these verses are referring to are false Christians. They have the outward appearance, but their works are dead. You've probably met some. They claim to be Christians, yet their actions do not show it. Just saying a little prayer doesn't save you. It involves repentance. It requires a change of heart. This is what these verses are really saying. There is no contradiction.

That's a theist's favourite word, when something like this is shown: "CONTEXT!" Please see my response to RoderickSpode, as it also seems to apply to your entry... I was asked for a contradiction. I provided one. The two verses CLEARLY contradict one another. But here come the "interpretations," and all of the "contexts" in which it can be twisted to and fro, so as to appear that they do not contradict.

Again:
Testable=allegory/metaphorical/interpretive/contextual
Untestable=literal

Have you ever caught the tail end of, or part of a conversation, without hearing the whole thing? It would be easy to misinterpret something someone said, because you're missing the context. You were not privy to the whole conversation. You misunderstood what the person really meant. This sort of thing happens every day. Context is important in real life interactions. It's important in Scripture too. You're not just ignorant, you're WILLFULLY ignorant. You have decided that your interpretation is correct, in spite of all the learned people who have shown you that this is not the case. I'll never convince you. That's OK. I'm trying to convince people, who actually have an open mind. You are lost. Not only have you rejected God, you try to lure others away from Him, That is the very definition of evil.

LOL. I am only defined as evil by theists, and only for theological reasons. The problem with your argument about context is that I have read the bible, in its entirety, more than once. You are among the last with the brain pan required to call me "ignorant," and back it up, tunnel-vision zealot... You argue from assumed and unproven authority. If I don't accept your justification, I am "ignorant" and "evil." I absolutely want to lead people away from religion... It would make the world a better place.

Oh, wow! You READ the Bible. There are many people that are more knowledgeable than you about the Bible. They have spent their lives STUDYING Scripture; not just reading it. Why, pray tell, should I take your word over theirs? It's painfully obvious that you have a bias, and even a hatred, of all things related to Christianity. I say YOU are the one with tunnel vision. You're opinion is meaningless, since it involves nothing more than calling your opponents clueless idiots.

I spent the majority of my developmental years STUDYING the bible. It was the instrument of my rejection of christianity. One can spend their life studying something meaningless... it doesn't make that one a master of language or anything meaningful. You're almost right... I despise all religion, equally. I, however, have reasons for it. These reasons were derived from rational thought. It's not that I have a bias, it's that it takes more than 'spin' to convince me that I'm wrong...

Further, I didn't call you a "clueless idiot." It was you that first hurled the insults of "ignorant" and "evil." It's OK for you, but if I do it, I'm just mean? Oh, I get it... You have 'gawd on your side.' That makes it 'moral,' doesn't it?

Hypocritical religitard.

You were the one, who first hurled insults. Not personal insults, but you are insulting my religion, which is worse. Remember this?

"This, further, is not "nit-picky," since it goes straight to the heart of the most vile of all christian teachings: vicarious redemption. The entire purpose for the appearance of the jeebus, according to christians, carries a contradictory message, in the 'infallible," "inerrant word of gawd."

Vile. jeebus, gawd? I was simply replying in kind. And, once again, there are those who are more knowledgeable than you. You think you have all of the answers. You don't. My understanding of the Bible is backed by countless people, who disagree with you. Seekers of truth. Honest people of faith, who don't have an axe to grind. I know who I believe.
Dr_Obvious
Posts: 551
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8/5/2014 12:16:11 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/5/2014 10:47:12 AM, irreverent_god wrote:
At 8/5/2014 10:28:59 AM, RoderickSpode wrote:
At 8/5/2014 9:58:09 AM, irreverent_god wrote:
At 8/5/2014 9:28:03 AM, Dr_Obvious wrote:
I'm not talking about little nitpicking stuff, either. I'll grant that there may be some minor errors that don't change the message of the Bible. I'm talking about the message, here. I challenge anyone to show me an example of the Bible flat out contradicting itself on doctrine.

Just for the record, showing me a verse taken out of context is not proof. Directing me to a web page with a list of contradictions is not proof. I want YOU to choose a verse, or verses, and tell me in your OWN words why it's a contradiction. Anything else will be ignored.

The contradiction in this one is pretty clear and should be self-explanatory. However, since you demand an explanation, '...in your [my] OWN words why it's a contradiction,' the book of Matthew says that NOT everyone that calls 'the lord' will enter into heaven, but Romans says the exact opposite. Irrespective of the bible 'version,' it carries the SAME contradiction.

This, further, is not "nit-picky," since it goes straight to the heart of the most vile of all christian teachings: vicarious redemption. The entire purpose for the appearance of the jeebus, according to christians, carries a contradictory message, in the 'infallible," "inerrant word of gawd."

Matthew 7:21-23:
21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Rom. 10:12, 13:
12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; 13 for "Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved."

Batter up!
Jesus also stated that one must be born again to enter into Heaven. So why would someone conclude that someone who made a profession of faith but showed no signs of faith, or someone who did works, and both being rejected from Heaven were born again believers? Someone saying "Lord Lord" is not necessarily the same thing as crying out to the Lord for salvation

I think the sentence, "Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved," pretty clearly contradicts the 'spin' you just attempted to put on this. You want to add qualifiers and conditions of your own definition to words that you claim were divinely inspired? Are you an inspired prophet, now?

Zephaniah 3:9 links one"s "calling" with his "service": "For then I will restore to the peoples a pure language, that they all may call on the name of the Lord, to serve Him with one accord" (emp. added). When a person submits to the will of God, he accurately can be described as "calling on the Lord." Acts 2:21 and Romans 10:13 (among other passages) do not contradict Matthew 7:21, because to "call on the Lord" entails more than just pleading for salvation; it involves submitting to God"s will. According to Colossians 3:17, every single act a Christian performs (in word or deed) should be carried out by Christ"s authority. For a non-Christian receiving salvation, this is no different. In order to obtain salvation, a person must submit to the Lord"s authority. This is what the passages in Acts 2:21 and Romans 10:13 are teaching

In Matthew there were a number of people being addressed that were religious and thought that there works and knowledge of scripture would get them into Heaven. The Apostle Paul also addressed the fact that there were false Christians which would match with Jesus' prediction that some would identify with Christianity but would be false Christians.

I will refer you to my above entry, as nothing in this paragraph furthers your position against it.

If we don't compare scripture with scripture, and assume Jesus is claiming that anyone who fails to accomplish humanitarian acts, then salvation would be based on a scale, or no one would be saved. Just about everybody has refused to help a street person, right?. Even if the greatest humanitarian in the world refused to take in one street person who asked for help into their home and cleaned him up, why would we assume Jesus will not use that example to say "depart from me because when you refused to help that one person, you refused to help me"?

Again, I will refer you to my first entry, for the same reason as in the second.

In fact the question was asked to Jesus "who can be saved?". Jesus then indicated that it's actually quite impossible by human effort alone.

So, then, Paul directly contradicted his own 'savior?'

So no, we're talking about a contradiction there at all. Being a Christian does not mean there is no challenge to strive for what Paul referred to as a heavenly prize. If one is called to be a pastor, and he doesn't act upon that calling, that person is not walking in faith. Sitting back and not taking action is a problem a Christian can be guilty of. Or, there is the possibility that they are not really a Christian.

You used a whole lot of words to say, precisely, "NU-UHHHH!" You are arguing referential meaning and interpretation of biblical scripture, much of which is quite open to exactly that. Nevertheless, I was asked to provide a contradiction. I provided one. Once again, if it is falsifiable or objectively disprovable, it's 'allegory,' or 'interpretive,' or 'metaphorical.' If it's completely outside the reach of human testing, then it's literal and concrete!

Nice try, Roderick...
annanicole
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8/5/2014 12:30:57 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/5/2014 9:39:35 AM, lifemeansevolutionisgood wrote:
At 8/5/2014 9:28:03 AM, Dr_Obvious wrote:
I'm not talking about little nitpicking stuff, either. I'll grant that there may be some minor errors that don't change the message of the Bible. I'm talking about the message, here. I challenge anyone to show me an example of the Bible flat out contradicting itself on doctrine.

Just for the record, showing me a verse taken out of context is not proof. Directing me to a web page with a list of contradictions is not proof. I want YOU to choose a verse, or verses, and tell me in your OWN words why it's a contradiction. Anything else will be ignored.

I hope you won't be as closed-minded as the rest that issue this challenge.

Romans 3:28 - Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Romans 5:1 - Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

Justification through faith alone.

James 2:24 - Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

James 2:14-26 - What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food, and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, be warmed and filled," without giving them the things needed for the body, what good is that? So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. But someone will say, "You have faith and I have works." Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.

Justification through faith + deeds.

Romans says that faith alone gets you into heaven. James says that you need faith and works. It cannot be both faith alone and faith plus works, so what is it?

It is a contradiction.

You see a contradiction because you misdefine the word "faith". "Faith" (without an article) has several different meanings, differing only in degree.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
annanicole
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8/5/2014 12:33:06 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/5/2014 9:58:09 AM, irreverent_god wrote:
At 8/5/2014 9:28:03 AM, Dr_Obvious wrote:
I'm not talking about little nitpicking stuff, either. I'll grant that there may be some minor errors that don't change the message of the Bible. I'm talking about the message, here. I challenge anyone to show me an example of the Bible flat out contradicting itself on doctrine.

Just for the record, showing me a verse taken out of context is not proof. Directing me to a web page with a list of contradictions is not proof. I want YOU to choose a verse, or verses, and tell me in your OWN words why it's a contradiction. Anything else will be ignored.

The contradiction in this one is pretty clear and should be self-explanatory. However, since you demand an explanation, '...in your [my] OWN words why it's a contradiction,' the book of Matthew says that NOT everyone that calls 'the lord' will enter into heaven, but Romans says the exact opposite. Irrespective of the bible 'version,' it carries the SAME contradiction.

This, further, is not "nit-picky," since it goes straight to the heart of the most vile of all christian teachings: vicarious redemption. The entire purpose for the appearance of the jeebus, according to christians, carries a contradictory message, in the 'infallible," "inerrant word of gawd."

Matthew 7:21-23:
21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Rom. 10:12, 13:
12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; 13 for "Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved."

Batter up!

"Calling on the name of the Lord" in Romans 10 is a reference to water baptism. Indeed that is when one is correctly appealing to or invoking the name of the Lord.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
annanicole
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8/5/2014 12:41:10 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/5/2014 10:20:44 AM, Dr_Obvious wrote:
At 8/5/2014 9:39:35 AM, lifemeansevolutionisgood wrote:
At 8/5/2014 9:28:03 AM, Dr_Obvious wrote:
I'm not talking about little nitpicking stuff, either. I'll grant that there may be some minor errors that don't change the message of the Bible. I'm talking about the message, here. I challenge anyone to show me an example of the Bible flat out contradicting itself on doctrine.

Just for the record, showing me a verse taken out of context is not proof. Directing me to a web page with a list of contradictions is not proof. I want YOU to choose a verse, or verses, and tell me in your OWN words why it's a contradiction. Anything else will be ignored.

I hope you won't be as closed-minded as the rest that issue this challenge.

Romans 3:28 - Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Romans 5:1 - Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

Justification through faith alone.

James 2:24 - Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

James 2:14-26 - What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food, and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, be warmed and filled," without giving them the things needed for the body, what good is that? So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. But someone will say, "You have faith and I have works." Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.

Justification through faith + deeds.

Romans says that faith alone gets you into heaven. James says that you need faith and works. It cannot be both faith alone and faith plus works, so what is it?

It is a contradiction.

I see this one a lot. It is the result of a failure to fully understand the role of Gods Holy Spirit, in the life of a Christian. The Bible teaches that when someone accepts Christ as their Savior, a supernatural transformation takes place.

There's nothing miraculous or supernatural about it.

Gods Holy Spirit is given to them, as a guide.

The Word of God, the Holy Scriptures, are our guide.

If one strays from the path, the Spirit chastises them. It goads their conscience. Even though one is a Christian, they are still sinful creatures. They still sin. The Holy Spirit is there to give them the boot, when they stray from the path.

The Holy Spirit corrects through the Word.

The works mentioned in James 28 are not works in the sense of, if I do this or that, I'll gain Gods favor and go to Heaven. The works he's referring to are the outward manifestation of ones faith. James is emphasizing the point that genuine faith in Christ will produce a changed life and good works. James is not saying that justification is by faith plus works, but rather that a person who is truly justified by faith will have good works in his/her life. If a person claims to be a believer, but has no good works in his/her life, then he/she likely does not have genuine faith in Christ

That makes it about as clear as mud.

Paul says the same thing in his writings. The good fruit believers should have in their lives is listed in Galatians 5:22-23. Immediately after telling us that we are saved by faith, not works (Ephesians 2:8-9), Paul informs us that we were created to do good works (Ephesians 2:10). Paul expects just as much of a changed life as James does: "Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come" (2 Corinthians 5:17). James and Paul do not disagree in their teaching regarding salvation. They approach the same subject from different perspectives. Paul simply emphasized that justification is by faith alone while James put emphasis on the fact that genuine faith in Christ produces good works.

Paul never said "faith alone" at all, but granting the point, does not the word pistis from which the word faith is translated mean "joyful trust joined with obedience"?

Read more: http://www.gotquestions.org...

Biblically, faith includes obedience many times. Whether or not the word pistis (or pisteuo) is referring to (1) a mere head-nod, (2) a trust and confidence and reliance, or (3) all of the preceding, plus obedience ... is to be determined by the context.

There is a sense in which we are saved by faith alone, despite the protestations of some. When faith is defined as "joyful trust joined with obedience", then we are saved by faith alone.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
annanicole
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8/5/2014 1:08:10 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/5/2014 10:47:12 AM, irreverent_god wrote:
At 8/5/2014 10:28:59 AM, RoderickSpode wrote:
At 8/5/2014 9:58:09 AM, irreverent_god wrote:
At 8/5/2014 9:28:03 AM, Dr_Obvious wrote:
I'm not talking about little nitpicking stuff, either. I'll grant that there may be some minor errors that don't change the message of the Bible. I'm talking about the message, here. I challenge anyone to show me an example of the Bible flat out contradicting itself on doctrine.

Just for the record, showing me a verse taken out of context is not proof. Directing me to a web page with a list of contradictions is not proof. I want YOU to choose a verse, or verses, and tell me in your OWN words why it's a contradiction. Anything else will be ignored.

The contradiction in this one is pretty clear and should be self-explanatory. However, since you demand an explanation, '...in your [my] OWN words why it's a contradiction,' the book of Matthew says that NOT everyone that calls 'the lord' will enter into heaven, but Romans says the exact opposite. Irrespective of the bible 'version,' it carries the SAME contradiction.

This, further, is not "nit-picky," since it goes straight to the heart of the most vile of all christian teachings: vicarious redemption. The entire purpose for the appearance of the jeebus, according to christians, carries a contradictory message, in the 'infallible," "inerrant word of gawd."

Matthew 7:21-23:
21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Rom. 10:12, 13:
12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; 13 for "Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved."

Batter up!
Jesus also stated that one must be born again to enter into Heaven. So why would someone conclude that someone who made a profession of faith but showed no signs of faith, or someone who did works, and both being rejected from Heaven were born again believers? Someone saying "Lord Lord" is not necessarily the same thing as crying out to the Lord for salvation

I think the sentence, "Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved," pretty clearly contradicts the 'spin' you just attempted to put on this. You want to add qualifiers and conditions of your own definition to words that you claim were divinely inspired? Are you an inspired prophet, now?

When does one "call upon the name of the Lord". That'd be the important question. In becoming a Christian, precisely when would one appeal to, invoke the authority of, call upon the name of ... the Lord?

"Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?"

The word epikaleo (literally "call upon" or "call over") means, in this passage, "to invoke, to call upon for one's self, in one's behalf, to appeal unto". It certainly would be quite a twist if a person did that sitting out in a soybean field. The passage, as previously stated, is a direct - not indirect - reference to the appeal made at water baptism.

"Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ" (I Pet 3: 21)

"And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on his name." (Acts 22: 16)

The two passages that you've cited as apparent contradictions thus have little to do with each other.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
RoderickSpode
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8/5/2014 1:14:50 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/5/2014 11:13:38 AM, irreverent_god wrote:
At 8/5/2014 11:08:24 AM, Dr_Obvious wrote:

Have you ever caught the tail end of, or part of a conversation, without hearing the whole thing? It would be easy to misinterpret something someone said, because you're missing the context. You were not privy to the whole conversation. You misunderstood what the person really meant. This sort of thing happens every day. Context is important in real life interactions. It's important in Scripture too. You're not just ignorant, you're WILLFULLY ignorant. You have decided that your interpretation is correct, in spite of all the learned people who have shown you that this is not the case. I'll never convince you. That's OK. I'm trying to convince people, who actually have an open mind. You are lost. Not only have you rejected God, you try to lure others away from Him, That is the very definition of evil.

I absolutely want to lead people away from religion... It would make the world a better place.

Why do you want impose on Japanese and Thai immigrants, Golidie Hawn, Richard Gere, and the sovereignty of Tibetans oppressed by Chinese rule by leading them away from Buddhism? What harm are they doing?
Dr_Obvious
Posts: 551
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8/5/2014 1:22:53 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/5/2014 12:41:10 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 8/5/2014 10:20:44 AM, Dr_Obvious wrote:
At 8/5/2014 9:39:35 AM, lifemeansevolutionisgood wrote:
At 8/5/2014 9:28:03 AM, Dr_Obvious wrote:
I'm not talking about little nitpicking stuff, either. I'll grant that there may be some minor errors that don't change the message of the Bible. I'm talking about the message, here. I challenge anyone to show me an example of the Bible flat out contradicting itself on doctrine.

Just for the record, showing me a verse taken out of context is not proof. Directing me to a web page with a list of contradictions is not proof. I want YOU to choose a verse, or verses, and tell me in your OWN words why it's a contradiction. Anything else will be ignored.

I hope you won't be as closed-minded as the rest that issue this challenge.

Romans 3:28 - Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Romans 5:1 - Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

Justification through faith alone.

James 2:24 - Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

James 2:14-26 - What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food, and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, be warmed and filled," without giving them the things needed for the body, what good is that? So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. But someone will say, "You have faith and I have works." Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.

Justification through faith + deeds.

Romans says that faith alone gets you into heaven. James says that you need faith and works. It cannot be both faith alone and faith plus works, so what is it?

It is a contradiction.

I see this one a lot. It is the result of a failure to fully understand the role of Gods Holy Spirit, in the life of a Christian. The Bible teaches that when someone accepts Christ as their Savior, a supernatural transformation takes place.

There's nothing miraculous or supernatural about it.

How can you say that? The Bible says that we are a new creature. Our spiritual nature is changed. Sounds like a supernatural event, to me.

Gods Holy Spirit is given to them, as a guide.

The Word of God, the Holy Scriptures, are our guide.


If one strays from the path, the Spirit chastises them. It goads their conscience. Even though one is a Christian, they are still sinful creatures. They still sin. The Holy Spirit is there to give them the boot, when they stray from the path.

The Holy Spirit corrects through the Word.

That's what I meant.

The works mentioned in James 28 are not works in the sense of, if I do this or that, I'll gain Gods favor and go to Heaven. The works he's referring to are the outward manifestation of ones faith. James is emphasizing the point that genuine faith in Christ will produce a changed life and good works. James is not saying that justification is by faith plus works, but rather that a person who is truly justified by faith will have good works in his/her life. If a person claims to be a believer, but has no good works in his/her life, then he/she likely does not have genuine faith in Christ

That makes it about as clear as mud.

I was trying to say that works done to gain favor from God are different than works done because of the fruit of the Holy Spirit. Does that make it any clearer?

Paul says the same thing in his writings. The good fruit believers should have in their lives is listed in Galatians 5:22-23. Immediately after telling us that we are saved by faith, not works (Ephesians 2:8-9), Paul informs us that we were created to do good works (Ephesians 2:10). Paul expects just as much of a changed life as James does: "Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come" (2 Corinthians 5:17). James and Paul do not disagree in their teaching regarding salvation. They approach the same subject from different perspectives. Paul simply emphasized that justification is by faith alone while James put emphasis on the fact that genuine faith in Christ produces good works.

Paul never said "faith alone" at all, but granting the point, does not the word pistis from which the word faith is translated mean "joyful trust joined with obedience"?

Read more: http://www.gotquestions.org...

Biblically, faith includes obedience many times. Whether or not the word pistis (or pisteuo) is referring to (1) a mere head-nod, (2) a trust and confidence and reliance, or (3) all of the preceding, plus obedience ... is to be determined by the context.

There is a sense in which we are saved by faith alone, despite the protestations of some. When faith is defined as "joyful trust joined with obedience", then we are saved by faith alone.

I agree. Faith without works is dead. They are an outward expression of God in our lives.
Dr_Obvious
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8/5/2014 1:29:00 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/5/2014 11:12:31 AM, lifemeansevolutionisgood wrote:
At 8/5/2014 10:20:44 AM, Dr_Obvious wrote:
At 8/5/2014 9:39:35 AM, lifemeansevolutionisgood wrote:
At 8/5/2014 9:28:03 AM, Dr_Obvious wrote:
I'm not talking about little nitpicking stuff, either. I'll grant that there may be some minor errors that don't change the message of the Bible. I'm talking about the message, here. I challenge anyone to show me an example of the Bible flat out contradicting itself on doctrine.

Just for the record, showing me a verse taken out of context is not proof. Directing me to a web page with a list of contradictions is not proof. I want YOU to choose a verse, or verses, and tell me in your OWN words why it's a contradiction. Anything else will be ignored.

I hope you won't be as closed-minded as the rest that issue this challenge.

Romans 3:28 - Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Romans 5:1 - Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

Justification through faith alone.

James 2:24 - Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

James 2:14-26 - What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food, and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, be warmed and filled," without giving them the things needed for the body, what good is that? So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. But someone will say, "You have faith and I have works." Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.

Justification through faith + deeds.

Romans says that faith alone gets you into heaven. James says that you need faith and works. It cannot be both faith alone and faith plus works, so what is it?

It is a contradiction.

I see this one a lot. It is the result of a failure to fully understand the role of Gods Holy Spirit, in the life of a Christian. The Bible teaches that when someone accepts Christ as their Savior, a supernatural transformation takes place. Gods Holy Spirit is given to them, as a guide. If one strays from the path, the Spirit chastises them. It goads their conscience. Even though one is a Christian, they are still sinful creatures. They still sin. The Holy Spirit is there to give them the boot, when they stray from the path. The works mentioned in James 28 are not works in the sense of, if I do this or that, I'll gain Gods favor and go to Heaven. The works he's referring to are the outward manifestation of ones faith. James is emphasizing the point that genuine faith in Christ will produce a changed life and good works. James is not saying that justification is by faith plus works, but rather that a person who is truly justified by faith will have good works in his/her life. If a person claims to be a believer, but has no good works in his/her life, then he/she likely does not have genuine faith in Christ

Paul says the same thing in his writings. The good fruit believers should have in their lives is listed in Galatians 5:22-23. Immediately after telling us that we are saved by faith, not works (Ephesians 2:8-9), Paul informs us that we were created to do good works (Ephesians 2:10). Paul expects just as much of a changed life as James does: "Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come" (2 Corinthians 5:17). James and Paul do not disagree in their teaching regarding salvation. They approach the same subject from different perspectives. Paul simply emphasized that justification is by faith alone while James put emphasis on the fact that genuine faith in Christ produces good works.

Read more: http://www.gotquestions.org...

I guess that it was too much to ask for you to look at this objectively. I have seen that response time and time again. It is one of the most flawed "defenses" of this, and whenever I have tried to show it the person simply refuses to actually respond to anything I have said. I am going to learn from experience and give up here. It is obvious that you simply reject that there are contradictions, and therefore will make any excuse (flawed or not) in order for you not to listen to the contradiction.

All right, then. Why don't you tell me how my argument is flawed? Biblical scholars disagree with you. Why should I take your word over theirs?
annanicole
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8/5/2014 2:14:40 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/5/2014 1:22:53 PM, Dr_Obvious wrote:
At 8/5/2014 12:41:10 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 8/5/2014 10:20:44 AM, Dr_Obvious wrote:
At 8/5/2014 9:39:35 AM, lifemeansevolutionisgood wrote:
At 8/5/2014 9:28:03 AM, Dr_Obvious wrote:
I'm not talking about little nitpicking stuff, either. I'll grant that there may be some minor errors that don't change the message of the Bible. I'm talking about the message, here. I challenge anyone to show me an example of the Bible flat out contradicting itself on doctrine.

Just for the record, showing me a verse taken out of context is not proof. Directing me to a web page with a list of contradictions is not proof. I want YOU to choose a verse, or verses, and tell me in your OWN words why it's a contradiction. Anything else will be ignored.

I hope you won't be as closed-minded as the rest that issue this challenge.

Romans 3:28 - Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Romans 5:1 - Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

Justification through faith alone.

James 2:24 - Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

James 2:14-26 - What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food, and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, be warmed and filled," without giving them the things needed for the body, what good is that? So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. But someone will say, "You have faith and I have works." Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.

Justification through faith + deeds.

Romans says that faith alone gets you into heaven. James says that you need faith and works. It cannot be both faith alone and faith plus works, so what is it?

It is a contradiction.

I see this one a lot. It is the result of a failure to fully understand the role of Gods Holy Spirit, in the life of a Christian. The Bible teaches that when someone accepts Christ as their Savior, a supernatural transformation takes place.

There's nothing miraculous or supernatural about it.

How can you say that? The Bible says that we are a new creature. Our spiritual nature is changed. Sounds like a supernatural event, to me.

Well, it's not - regardless of how it sounds to you.

Gods Holy Spirit is given to them, as a guide.

The Word of God, the Holy Scriptures, are our guide.



If one strays from the path, the Spirit chastises them. It goads their conscience. Even though one is a Christian, they are still sinful creatures. They still sin. The Holy Spirit is there to give them the boot, when they stray from the path.

The Holy Spirit corrects through the Word.

That's what I meant.

That's fine. I thought you meant that the Spirit did so directly and literally.

The works mentioned in James 28 are not works in the sense of, if I do this or that, I'll gain Gods favor and go to Heaven. The works he's referring to are the outward manifestation of ones faith. James is emphasizing the point that genuine faith in Christ will produce a changed life and good works. James is not saying that justification is by faith plus works, but rather that a person who is truly justified by faith will have good works in his/her life. If a person claims to be a believer, but has no good works in his/her life, then he/she likely does not have genuine faith in Christ

That makes it about as clear as mud.

I was trying to say that works done to gain favor from God are different than works done because of the fruit of the Holy Spirit. Does that make it any clearer?

I'm not sure what you mean by "fruit of the Holy Spirit."

Paul says the same thing in his writings. The good fruit believers should have in their lives is listed in Galatians 5:22-23. Immediately after telling us that we are saved by faith, not works (Ephesians 2:8-9), Paul informs us that we were created to do good works (Ephesians 2:10). Paul expects just as much of a changed life as James does: "Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come" (2 Corinthians 5:17). James and Paul do not disagree in their teaching regarding salvation. They approach the same subject from different perspectives. Paul simply emphasized that justification is by faith alone while James put emphasis on the fact that genuine faith in Christ produces good works.

Paul never said "faith alone" at all, but granting the point, does not the word pistis from which the word faith is translated mean "joyful trust joined with obedience"?

Read more: http://www.gotquestions.org...

Biblically, faith includes obedience many times. Whether or not the word pistis (or pisteuo) is referring to (1) a mere head-nod, (2) a trust and confidence and reliance, or (3) all of the preceding, plus obedience ... is to be determined by the context.

There is a sense in which we are saved by faith alone, despite the protestations of some. When faith is defined as "joyful trust joined with obedience", then we are saved by faith alone.

I agree. Faith without works is dead. They are an outward expression of God in our lives.

Correct. Faith (trust, reliance, confidence) without works is a dead faith. "Faith" is a tricky little word.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
RoderickSpode
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8/5/2014 2:18:54 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/5/2014 10:47:12 AM, irreverent_god wrote:
At 8/5/2014 10:28:59 AM, RoderickSpode wrote:
At 8/5/2014 9:58:09 AM, irreverent_god wrote:
At 8/5/2014 9:28:03 AM, Dr_Obvious wrote:
I'm not talking about little nitpicking stuff, either. I'll grant that there may be some minor errors that don't change the message of the Bible. I'm talking about the message, here. I challenge anyone to show me an example of the Bible flat out contradicting itself on doctrine.

Just for the record, showing me a verse taken out of context is not proof. Directing me to a web page with a list of contradictions is not proof. I want YOU to choose a verse, or verses, and tell me in your OWN words why it's a contradiction. Anything else will be ignored.

The contradiction in this one is pretty clear and should be self-explanatory. However, since you demand an explanation, '...in your [my] OWN words why it's a contradiction,' the book of Matthew says that NOT everyone that calls 'the lord' will enter into heaven, but Romans says the exact opposite. Irrespective of the bible 'version,' it carries the SAME contradiction.

This, further, is not "nit-picky," since it goes straight to the heart of the most vile of all christian teachings: vicarious redemption. The entire purpose for the appearance of the jeebus, according to christians, carries a contradictory message, in the 'infallible," "inerrant word of gawd."

Can you please expound on what you mean by vicarious redemption?
Matthew 7:21-23:
21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Rom. 10:12, 13:
12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; 13 for "Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved."

Batter up!
Jesus also stated that one must be born again to enter into Heaven. So why would someone conclude that someone who made a profession of faith but showed no signs of faith, or someone who did works, and both being rejected from Heaven were born again believers? Someone saying "Lord Lord" is not necessarily the same thing as crying out to the Lord for salvation

I think the sentence, "Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved," pretty clearly contradicts the 'spin' you just attempted to put on this. You want to add qualifiers and conditions of your own definition to words that you claim were divinely inspired? Are you an inspired prophet, now?

You can pretty much get the same answer from numerous bible commentaries. So no, I don't claim to be an inspired prophet.

In Matthew there were a number of people being addressed that were religious and thought that there works and knowledge of scripture would get them into Heaven. The Apostle Paul also addressed the fact that there were false Christians which would match with Jesus' prediction that some would identify with Christianity but would be false Christians.

I will refer you to my above entry, as nothing in this paragraph furthers your position against it.

If we don't compare scripture with scripture, and assume Jesus is claiming that anyone who fails to accomplish humanitarian acts, then salvation would be based on a scale, or no one would be saved. Just about everybody has refused to help a street person, right?. Even if the greatest humanitarian in the world refused to take in one street person who asked for help into their home and cleaned him up, why would we assume Jesus will not use that example to say "depart from me because when you refused to help that one person, you refused to help me"?

Again, I will refer you to my first entry, for the same reason as in the second.

In fact the question was asked to Jesus "who can be saved?". Jesus then indicated that it's actually quite impossible by human effort alone.

So, then, Paul directly contradicted his own 'savior?'

No, not at all. Paul didn't believe in salvation by works. Isn't that very clear?

So no, we're talking about a contradiction there at all. Being a Christian does not mean there is no challenge to strive for what Paul referred to as a heavenly prize. If one is called to be a pastor, and he doesn't act upon that calling, that person is not walking in faith. Sitting back and not taking action is a problem a Christian can be guilty of. Or, there is the possibility that they are not really a Christian.

You used a whole lot of words to say, precisely, "NU-UHHHH!" You are arguing referential meaning and interpretation of biblical scripture, much of which is quite open to exactly that. Nevertheless, I was asked to provide a contradiction. I provided one. Once again, if it is falsifiable or objectively disprovable, it's 'allegory,' or 'interpretive,' or 'metaphorical.' If it's completely outside the reach of human testing, then it's literal and concrete!

Nice try, Roderick...

There's a periodical blues festival in my State. One year a news headline read

"Artists At The 2009 Monterey Bay Blues Festival create a joyous community through music."

Wouldn't you agree that that sounds contradictory? Someone who doesn't understand that the music genre called the blues has expanded beyond it's original musical meaning might wonder the term blues can be associated with joy. The 2 terms would contradict each other.

If you're arguing that you're presenting something that appears contradictory, then you may have something there. At first glance the verses you presented may appear contradictory. Once the context (that you oppose) and scenario is understood, it's no longer contradictory.

Do you really think context can just be thrown out the window?
irreverent_god
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8/5/2014 2:26:17 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/5/2014 12:07:56 PM, Dr_Obvious wrote:

Further, I didn't call you a "clueless idiot." It was you that first hurled the insults of "ignorant" and "evil." It's OK for you, but if I do it, I'm just mean? Oh, I get it... You have 'gawd on your side.' That makes it 'moral,' doesn't it?

Hypocritical religitard.

You were the one, who first hurled insults. Not personal insults, but you are insulting my religion, which is worse. Remember this?

Why is insulting religion wrong, let alone "worse?" What makes religion "sacred?" What gives religion a free pass to commit stupidity and spread falsehood, while still being protected? Beliefs are out of bounds? You can deliver a judgment of "evil" upon me for not believing your stupidstitious fairy tale book, but the fairy tale book itself, is off limits? By whose authority? Using what standard? What makes religion off-limits? Sorry, but your reasoning is not only flawed, but false. I will not accept it.

"This, further, is not "nit-picky," since it goes straight to the heart of the most vile of all christian teachings: vicarious redemption. The entire purpose for the appearance of the jeebus, according to christians, carries a contradictory message, in the 'infallible," "inerrant word of gawd."

Yes, I remember those words. I typed them. I stand by them.

Vile. jeebus, gawd? I was simply replying in kind. And, once again, there are those who are more knowledgeable than you. You think you have all of the answers. You don't. My understanding of the Bible is backed by countless people, who disagree with you. Seekers of truth. Honest people of faith, who don't have an axe to grind. I know who I believe.

I attacked an idea. The idea of religion is no different from attacking Republican/Democrat/Tea Party beliefs. They are beliefs. It would be no worse than attacking the belief that someone has the right to rule over others because they were genetically fortunate enough to have been born into a specific family. Attacking a belief is not wrong or immoral. That's how ideas get changed. That's how the USA was born. We challenged the idea of feudal England mistreating us by virtue of 'birthright.'

I've never claimed to 'have all the answers.' I do know that biblical answers are wrong. There are many people more knowledgeable than me, and on MANY subjects. That, however, does not make it "wrong" to attack the ideas of religion. Your idea of the bible is backed by (blind acceptance of the beliefs of) countless people who disagree with me. Countless people believed that Ferdinand Magellan and Christopher Columbus were going to 'sail off the edge of the world.' ALL people, at one time, believed the world to be flat. The number of people subscribing to a belief is not proof or even substantiation.

I would also be very careful with using expressions as meaningless as "honest people of faith.' That list could easily be dismissed with the mention of people like Robert Tilton, Peter Poppoff, and Oral Roberts. Faith does not automatically make honesty. Believe who you wish. I'm not asking for your money. They will.
Logic and Reason are the precursor to Justice.
Faith and zealotry are the precursor to Folly.
irreverent_god
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8/5/2014 2:34:34 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/5/2014 12:16:11 PM, Dr_Obvious wrote:

I think the sentence, "Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved," pretty clearly contradicts the 'spin' you just attempted to put on this. You want to add qualifiers and conditions of your own definition to words that you claim were divinely inspired? Are you an inspired prophet, now?

Zephaniah 3:9 links one"s "calling" with his "service": "For then I will restore to the peoples a pure language, that they all may call on the name of the Lord, to serve Him with one accord" (emp. added). When a person submits to the will of God, he accurately can be described as "calling on the Lord." Acts 2:21 and Romans 10:13 (among other passages) do not contradict Matthew 7:21, because to "call on the Lord" entails more than just pleading for salvation; it involves submitting to God"s will. According to Colossians 3:17, every single act a Christian performs (in word or deed) should be carried out by Christ"s authority. For a non-Christian receiving salvation, this is no different. In order to obtain salvation, a person must submit to the Lord"s authority. This is what the passages in Acts 2:21 and Romans 10:13 are teaching

Still more spin on why true is not the opposite of false, yes is not the opposite of no, and all is not contradictory to NOT all. Implication, interpretation, and "CONTEXT." Belief is blind, and acceptance is unequivocal, irrespective of truth or validity.
Logic and Reason are the precursor to Justice.
Faith and zealotry are the precursor to Folly.