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God's Will vs. Man's Will

sovereigngracereigns
Posts: 585
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8/6/2014 1:39:33 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
If a man goes to Hell, it's all his fault.
But if a man goes to Heaven, it's by God's grace.

So, if God leaves you to your will, you will go straight to Hell.
And if it's God's will save you, you'll be saved.

"There is nothing that keeps a man out of heaven but his own will.
But, there is nothing that will keep a man out of hell but God's will.
Eternal life is by God's will, God's gift, and God's work.
(Romans 9:16; 6:23; II Timothy 1:9)
But eternal death is the result of man's will, man's work, and man's merit. (Proverbs 1:23-26; Romans 6:23; 10:21)"


-- Pastor Don Fortner
annanicole
Posts: 19,782
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8/6/2014 1:48:03 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/6/2014 1:39:33 AM, sovereigngracereigns wrote:
If a man goes to Hell, it's all his fault.
But if a man goes to Heaven, it's by God's grace.

So, if God leaves you to your will, you will go straight to Hell.
And if it's God's will save you, you'll be saved.

"There is nothing that keeps a man out of heaven but his own will.
But, there is nothing that will keep a man out of hell but God's will.
Eternal life is by God's will, God's gift, and God's work.
(Romans 9:16; 6:23; II Timothy 1:9)
But eternal death is the result of man's will, man's work, and man's merit. (Proverbs 1:23-26; Romans 6:23; 10:21)"


-- Pastor Don Fortner

Why quote a sectarian who deems himself a professional "pastor". Why not quote a Christian and a Christian only if you plan to quote anyone?
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
lifemeansevolutionisgood
Posts: 551
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8/6/2014 7:53:08 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/6/2014 1:39:33 AM, sovereigngracereigns wrote:
If a man goes to Hell, it's all his fault.

No, if hell and god exist, that means that God set the system in motion. I know you might call "Godwin's Law" on this, but I am using it for the purpose of an analogy.

Hitler didn't actually kill many Jews, he was just one of the main people responsible for the system that was used to kill them.

So, is Hitler to blame? According to your logic, no. According to any rational person, yes.

That means that God (if he exists) is to blame for anyone that goes to hell.

You also have no evidence for this claim.

But if a man goes to Heaven, it's by God's grace.

Only in the religions where there is a hell. There are religions that have reincarnation, universal afterlife, etc.

Where is your evidence that your religion is right and that those ones are wrong?

So, if God leaves you to your will, you will go straight to Hell.

Evidence please.

Also, it would be because of God as well.

And if it's God's will save you, you'll be saved.

Evidence please.

"There is nothing that keeps a man out of heaven but his own will.
But, there is nothing that will keep a man out of hell but God's will.
Eternal life is by God's will, God's gift, and God's work.
(Romans 9:16; 6:23; II Timothy 1:9)

Romans is not a historically accurate book.
It is agreed upon by modern scholars and historians that Timothy I and II were forged. Not accurate either.

But eternal death is the result of man's will, man's work, and man's merit. (Proverbs 1:23-26; Romans 6:23; 10:21)"

Can you use sources that are historically reliable? Actually, you aren't talking about history, bring forth peer-reviewed scientific articles/journals.

-- Pastor Don Fortner

Try to make a rational thread next time.
DPMartin
Posts: 1,096
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8/6/2014 10:41:08 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/6/2014 7:53:08 AM, lifemeansevolutionisgood wrote:
At 8/6/2014 1:39:33 AM, sovereigngracereigns wrote:
If a man goes to Hell, it's all his fault.

No, if hell and god exist, that means that God set the system in motion. I know you might call "Godwin's Law" on this, but I am using it for the purpose of an analogy.

Hitler didn't actually kill many Jews, he was just one of the main people responsible for the system that was used to kill them.

So, is Hitler to blame? According to your logic, no. According to any rational person, yes.

That means that God (if he exists) is to blame for anyone that goes to hell.

You also have no evidence for this claim.

But if a man goes to Heaven, it's by God's grace.

Only in the religions where there is a hell. There are religions that have reincarnation, universal afterlife, etc.

Where is your evidence that your religion is right and that those ones are wrong?

So, if God leaves you to your will, you will go straight to Hell.

Evidence please.

Also, it would be because of God as well.

And if it's God's will save you, you'll be saved.

Evidence please.

"There is nothing that keeps a man out of heaven but his own will.
But, there is nothing that will keep a man out of hell but God's will.
Eternal life is by God's will, God's gift, and God's work.
(Romans 9:16; 6:23; II Timothy 1:9)

Romans is not a historically accurate book.
It is agreed upon by modern scholars and historians that Timothy I and II were forged. Not accurate either.

But eternal death is the result of man's will, man's work, and man's merit. (Proverbs 1:23-26; Romans 6:23; 10:21)"

Can you use sources that are historically reliable? Actually, you aren't talking about history, bring forth peer-reviewed scientific articles/journals.

-- Pastor Don Fortner

Try to make a rational thread next time.

Your logic on Hitler is in error, what you are saying is, guns kill people, people don"t kill people. Hitler was in charge, and the power to kill Jews or not kill Jews, was in his hand. The power and authority was his and he was well aware of what he was doing.

The means to kill doesn"t act without the will to kill.
lifemeansevolutionisgood
Posts: 551
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8/6/2014 4:10:48 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/6/2014 10:41:08 AM, DPMartin wrote:
At 8/6/2014 7:53:08 AM, lifemeansevolutionisgood wrote:
At 8/6/2014 1:39:33 AM, sovereigngracereigns wrote:
If a man goes to Hell, it's all his fault.

No, if hell and god exist, that means that God set the system in motion. I know you might call "Godwin's Law" on this, but I am using it for the purpose of an analogy.

Hitler didn't actually kill many Jews, he was just one of the main people responsible for the system that was used to kill them.

So, is Hitler to blame? According to your logic, no. According to any rational person, yes.

That means that God (if he exists) is to blame for anyone that goes to hell.

You also have no evidence for this claim.

But if a man goes to Heaven, it's by God's grace.

Only in the religions where there is a hell. There are religions that have reincarnation, universal afterlife, etc.

Where is your evidence that your religion is right and that those ones are wrong?

So, if God leaves you to your will, you will go straight to Hell.

Evidence please.

Also, it would be because of God as well.

And if it's God's will save you, you'll be saved.

Evidence please.

"There is nothing that keeps a man out of heaven but his own will.
But, there is nothing that will keep a man out of hell but God's will.
Eternal life is by God's will, God's gift, and God's work.
(Romans 9:16; 6:23; II Timothy 1:9)

Romans is not a historically accurate book.
It is agreed upon by modern scholars and historians that Timothy I and II were forged. Not accurate either.

But eternal death is the result of man's will, man's work, and man's merit. (Proverbs 1:23-26; Romans 6:23; 10:21)"

Can you use sources that are historically reliable? Actually, you aren't talking about history, bring forth peer-reviewed scientific articles/journals.

-- Pastor Don Fortner

Try to make a rational thread next time.

Your logic on Hitler is in error, what you are saying is, guns kill people, people don"t kill people.

Not even close.
Guns do kill people, but since they have no free will, the person that shoots the gun is to blame.
Hitler made a system, influenced people to kill people. Both Hitler and the people that killed are to blame.
Your "God" supposedly made a system that includes hell. If anyone goes there, your "god" is partially to blame. Actually, since your "god" also made our ability of choice, made it so we could do that, etc. your "god" would have A LOT of blame.

Hitler was in charge, and the power to kill Jews or not kill Jews, was in his hand. The power and authority was his and he was well aware of what he was doing.

Your "God" is supposedly in charge, and has the power to send people to hell or not send people to hell. So, the analogy holds. Your "God", if he exists, is similar to Hitler.

The means to kill doesn"t act without the will to kill.

Ya, and apparently your "god" has a lot of will to kill, a lot of will to send people to hell, etc.
Arasa
Posts: 380
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8/10/2014 4:55:43 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/6/2014 1:39:33 AM, sovereigngracereigns wrote:
If a man goes to Hell, it's all his fault.
But if a man goes to Heaven, it's by God's grace.

So, if God leaves you to your will, you will go straight to Hell.
And if it's God's will save you, you'll be saved.

"There is nothing that keeps a man out of heaven but his own will.
But, there is nothing that will keep a man out of hell but God's will.
Eternal life is by God's will, God's gift, and God's work.
(Romans 9:16; 6:23; II Timothy 1:9)
But eternal death is the result of man's will, man's work, and man's merit. (Proverbs 1:23-26; Romans 6:23; 10:21)"


-- Pastor Don Fortner

Here, let me try to answer the overall point you make...

It is true that, if man were left to his own nature, he would be destroyed and would go to Hell. Without God's grace, man will all go to Hell, Christian or not. God's grace is forgiveness of sins. Think about it like this: God opens the door to heaven and says that He will allow mankind to choose for themselves whether or not they enter through it. To enter through it, they must meet certain qualifications in their hearts (unless you're a catholic or Jew, then you must also meet qualifications by actions). God does not say that He will only put it in some peoples' hearts to come through that door, but instead He says "I have given you free will, and so it is for you to decide whether or not you enter through this door."

Recap - Without God's grace- the opening of the door, none would enter the kingdom. It is by grace that we are even given the possibility of entering through that door. Man has free will to decide whether or not they will live in order to get through that door.

Make sense? If not, don't hesitate to let me know

August Rasa, a 4:53 mind
Double_R
Posts: 4,886
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8/10/2014 5:45:53 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/6/2014 1:39:33 AM, sovereigngracereigns wrote:
If a man goes to Hell, it's all his fault.

Just out of curiosity, what exactly does the almighty all powerful creator of everything get the blame for?
Double_R
Posts: 4,886
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8/10/2014 5:54:34 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/10/2014 4:55:43 PM, Arasa wrote:
It is true that, if man were left to his own nature, he would be destroyed and would go to Hell. Without God's grace, man will all go to Hell, Christian or not. God's grace is forgiveness of sins. Think about it like this: God opens the door to heaven and says that He will allow mankind to choose for themselves whether or not they enter through it. To enter through it, they must meet certain qualifications in their hearts (unless you're a catholic or Jew, then you must also meet qualifications by actions). God does not say that He will only put it in some peoples' hearts to come through that door, but instead He says "I have given you free will, and so it is for you to decide whether or not you enter through this door."

Recap - Without God's grace- the opening of the door, none would enter the kingdom. It is by grace that we are even given the possibility of entering through that door. Man has free will to decide whether or not they will live in order to get through that door.

Make sense?

No, it doesn't. What is in one's heart is the result of what they believe to be true. However, belief is not a choice and therefore God has not given us free will to decide.
ChristianPunk
Posts: 1,710
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8/10/2014 5:59:38 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/6/2014 1:39:33 AM, sovereigngracereigns wrote:
If a man goes to Hell, it's all his fault.
But if a man goes to Heaven, it's by God's grace.

So, if God leaves you to your will, you will go straight to Hell.
And if it's God's will save you, you'll be saved.

"There is nothing that keeps a man out of heaven but his own will.
But, there is nothing that will keep a man out of hell but God's will.
Eternal life is by God's will, God's gift, and God's work.
(Romans 9:16; 6:23; II Timothy 1:9)
But eternal death is the result of man's will, man's work, and man's merit. (Proverbs 1:23-26; Romans 6:23; 10:21)"


-- Pastor Don Fortner

You know, I have a very good analogy to this. But instead of saying it, I will show a video on the subject of sending yourself to Hell.

https://www.youtube.com...
Arasa
Posts: 380
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8/11/2014 3:27:23 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/10/2014 5:54:34 PM, Double_R wrote:
At 8/10/2014 4:55:43 PM, Arasa wrote:
It is true that, if man were left to his own nature, he would be destroyed and would go to Hell. Without God's grace, man will all go to Hell, Christian or not. God's grace is forgiveness of sins. Think about it like this: God opens the door to heaven and says that He will allow mankind to choose for themselves whether or not they enter through it. To enter through it, they must meet certain qualifications in their hearts (unless you're a catholic or Jew, then you must also meet qualifications by actions). God does not say that He will only put it in some peoples' hearts to come through that door, but instead He says "I have given you free will, and so it is for you to decide whether or not you enter through this door."

Recap - Without God's grace- the opening of the door, none would enter the kingdom. It is by grace that we are even given the possibility of entering through that door. Man has free will to decide whether or not they will live in order to get through that door.

Make sense?

No, it doesn't. What is in one's heart is the result of what they believe to be true. However, belief is not a choice and therefore God has not given us free will to decide.

How is belief not a choice? You choose to believe in certain things, surely the diversity of beliefs in the world is evidence enough of this
bornofgod
Posts: 11,322
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8/11/2014 4:35:26 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/11/2014 3:27:23 AM, Arasa wrote:
At 8/10/2014 5:54:34 PM, Double_R wrote:
At 8/10/2014 4:55:43 PM, Arasa wrote:
It is true that, if man were left to his own nature, he would be destroyed and would go to Hell. Without God's grace, man will all go to Hell, Christian or not. God's grace is forgiveness of sins. Think about it like this: God opens the door to heaven and says that He will allow mankind to choose for themselves whether or not they enter through it. To enter through it, they must meet certain qualifications in their hearts (unless you're a catholic or Jew, then you must also meet qualifications by actions). God does not say that He will only put it in some peoples' hearts to come through that door, but instead He says "I have given you free will, and so it is for you to decide whether or not you enter through this door."

Recap - Without God's grace- the opening of the door, none would enter the kingdom. It is by grace that we are even given the possibility of entering through that door. Man has free will to decide whether or not they will live in order to get through that door.

Make sense?

No, it doesn't. What is in one's heart is the result of what they believe to be true. However, belief is not a choice and therefore God has not given us free will to decide.

How is belief not a choice? You choose to believe in certain things, surely the diversity of beliefs in the world is evidence enough of this

God chose every belief for His people during this age to keep them deceived while working through His prophets and saints who testify to our created existence within His mind. Every man believes in something of this world but only a few chosen ones become prophets, saints and believers of the gospel that us saints preach to them.
Arasa
Posts: 380
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8/11/2014 4:58:02 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/11/2014 4:35:26 PM, bornofgod wrote:
At 8/11/2014 3:27:23 AM, Arasa wrote:
At 8/10/2014 5:54:34 PM, Double_R wrote:
At 8/10/2014 4:55:43 PM, Arasa wrote:
It is true that, if man were left to his own nature, he would be destroyed and would go to Hell. Without God's grace, man will all go to Hell, Christian or not. God's grace is forgiveness of sins. Think about it like this: God opens the door to heaven and says that He will allow mankind to choose for themselves whether or not they enter through it. To enter through it, they must meet certain qualifications in their hearts (unless you're a catholic or Jew, then you must also meet qualifications by actions). God does not say that He will only put it in some peoples' hearts to come through that door, but instead He says "I have given you free will, and so it is for you to decide whether or not you enter through this door."

Recap - Without God's grace- the opening of the door, none would enter the kingdom. It is by grace that we are even given the possibility of entering through that door. Man has free will to decide whether or not they will live in order to get through that door.

Make sense?

No, it doesn't. What is in one's heart is the result of what they believe to be true. However, belief is not a choice and therefore God has not given us free will to decide.

How is belief not a choice? You choose to believe in certain things, surely the diversity of beliefs in the world is evidence enough of this

God chose every belief for His people during this age to keep them deceived while working through His prophets and saints who testify to our created existence within His mind. Every man believes in something of this world but only a few chosen ones become prophets, saints and believers of the gospel that us saints preach to them.

That belief certainly portrays God in a dispicable light. Tell me then, under these views, if a person commits unspeakable evil because of these beliefs that God has deceived them with, will that person still go to heaven?

That belief points heavily toward every instance of evil in the world as a specific act by God. Such a thing completely contradicts a God who is immeasurably merciful, loving, and forgiving. Such a God is not the God of Christianity, Mormonism, Judaism, Islam, or Hinduism. These five views conflict heavily, and still none will touch those two conclusions.

August Rasa, a 4:53 mind
bornofgod
Posts: 11,322
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8/11/2014 5:15:31 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/11/2014 4:58:02 PM, Arasa wrote:
At 8/11/2014 4:35:26 PM, bornofgod wrote:
At 8/11/2014 3:27:23 AM, Arasa wrote:
At 8/10/2014 5:54:34 PM, Double_R wrote:
At 8/10/2014 4:55:43 PM, Arasa wrote:
It is true that, if man were left to his own nature, he would be destroyed and would go to Hell. Without God's grace, man will all go to Hell, Christian or not. God's grace is forgiveness of sins. Think about it like this: God opens the door to heaven and says that He will allow mankind to choose for themselves whether or not they enter through it. To enter through it, they must meet certain qualifications in their hearts (unless you're a catholic or Jew, then you must also meet qualifications by actions). God does not say that He will only put it in some peoples' hearts to come through that door, but instead He says "I have given you free will, and so it is for you to decide whether or not you enter through this door."

Recap - Without God's grace- the opening of the door, none would enter the kingdom. It is by grace that we are even given the possibility of entering through that door. Man has free will to decide whether or not they will live in order to get through that door.

Make sense?

No, it doesn't. What is in one's heart is the result of what they believe to be true. However, belief is not a choice and therefore God has not given us free will to decide.

How is belief not a choice? You choose to believe in certain things, surely the diversity of beliefs in the world is evidence enough of this

God chose every belief for His people during this age to keep them deceived while working through His prophets and saints who testify to our created existence within His mind. Every man believes in something of this world but only a few chosen ones become prophets, saints and believers of the gospel that us saints preach to them.

: That belief certainly portrays God in a dispicable light. Tell me then, under these views, if a person commits unspeakable evil because of these beliefs that God has deceived them with, will that person still go to heaven?

Yes. According to the prophecies of God, ALL His people will be saved from their wicked flesh of this wicked world.

: That belief points heavily toward every instance of evil in the world as a specific act by God. Such a thing completely contradicts a God who is immeasurably merciful, loving, and forgiving. Such a God is not the God of Christianity, Mormonism, Judaism, Islam, or Hinduism. These five views conflict heavily, and still none will touch those two conclusions.

It may contradict your perception of who the deity in your mind is but it doesn't contradict the prophecies that God had His prophets write about Him;

God is the Creator of the "tree of the knowledge of good and evil", which is what we observe in this world.

Isaiah 45:7
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.


August Rasa, a 4:53 mind
Arasa
Posts: 380
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8/11/2014 5:27:05 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/11/2014 5:15:31 PM, bornofgod wrote:
At 8/11/2014 4:58:02 PM, Arasa wrote:
At 8/11/2014 4:35:26 PM, bornofgod wrote:
At 8/11/2014 3:27:23 AM, Arasa wrote:
At 8/10/2014 5:54:34 PM, Double_R wrote:
At 8/10/2014 4:55:43 PM, Arasa wrote:
It is true that, if man were left to his own nature, he would be destroyed and would go to Hell. Without God's grace, man will all go to Hell, Christian or not. God's grace is forgiveness of sins. Think about it like this: God opens the door to heaven and says that He will allow mankind to choose for themselves whether or not they enter through it. To enter through it, they must meet certain qualifications in their hearts (unless you're a catholic or Jew, then you must also meet qualifications by actions). God does not say that He will only put it in some peoples' hearts to come through that door, but instead He says "I have given you free will, and so it is for you to decide whether or not you enter through this door."

Recap - Without God's grace- the opening of the door, none would enter the kingdom. It is by grace that we are even given the possibility of entering through that door. Man has free will to decide whether or not they will live in order to get through that door.

Make sense?

No, it doesn't. What is in one's heart is the result of what they believe to be true. However, belief is not a choice and therefore God has not given us free will to decide.

How is belief not a choice? You choose to believe in certain things, surely the diversity of beliefs in the world is evidence enough of this

God chose every belief for His people during this age to keep them deceived while working through His prophets and saints who testify to our created existence within His mind. Every man believes in something of this world but only a few chosen ones become prophets, saints and believers of the gospel that us saints preach to them.

: That belief certainly portrays God in a dispicable light. Tell me then, under these views, if a person commits unspeakable evil because of these beliefs that God has deceived them with, will that person still go to heaven?

Yes. According to the prophecies of God, ALL His people will be saved from their wicked flesh of this wicked world.

: That belief points heavily toward every instance of evil in the world as a specific act by God. Such a thing completely contradicts a God who is immeasurably merciful, loving, and forgiving. Such a God is not the God of Christianity, Mormonism, Judaism, Islam, or Hinduism. These five views conflict heavily, and still none will touch those two conclusions.

It may contradict your perception of who the deity in your mind is but it doesn't contradict the prophecies that God had His prophets write about Him;

God is the Creator of the "tree of the knowledge of good and evil", which is what we observe in this world.

Isaiah 45:7
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.


August Rasa, a 4:53 mind

My question for you now, is this: "Why then, should we be good?"

Or rather, "Why is there a difference between good and evil?"

Or furthermore, "If God has the capacity for evil, then how can God be a maximally perfect being? That is, how can God be completely good if He has the capacity for Evil?"

I hope i do not sound hostile in this response, as I am genuinely interested in your answers.

August Rasa, a 4:53 mind
Double_R
Posts: 4,886
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8/11/2014 7:05:07 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/11/2014 3:27:23 AM, Arasa wrote:
At 8/10/2014 5:54:34 PM, Double_R wrote:
At 8/10/2014 4:55:43 PM, Arasa wrote:
It is true that, if man were left to his own nature, he would be destroyed and would go to Hell. Without God's grace, man will all go to Hell, Christian or not. God's grace is forgiveness of sins. Think about it like this: God opens the door to heaven and says that He will allow mankind to choose for themselves whether or not they enter through it. To enter through it, they must meet certain qualifications in their hearts (unless you're a catholic or Jew, then you must also meet qualifications by actions). God does not say that He will only put it in some peoples' hearts to come through that door, but instead He says "I have given you free will, and so it is for you to decide whether or not you enter through this door."

Recap - Without God's grace- the opening of the door, none would enter the kingdom. It is by grace that we are even given the possibility of entering through that door. Man has free will to decide whether or not they will live in order to get through that door.

Make sense?

No, it doesn't. What is in one's heart is the result of what they believe to be true. However, belief is not a choice and therefore God has not given us free will to decide.

How is belief not a choice? You choose to believe in certain things, surely the diversity of beliefs in the world is evidence enough of this

Can you chose to believe you can fly?
bornofgod
Posts: 11,322
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8/12/2014 1:00:28 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/11/2014 5:27:05 PM, Arasa wrote:
At 8/11/2014 5:15:31 PM, bornofgod wrote:
At 8/11/2014 4:58:02 PM, Arasa wrote:
At 8/11/2014 4:35:26 PM, bornofgod wrote:
At 8/11/2014 3:27:23 AM, Arasa wrote:
At 8/10/2014 5:54:34 PM, Double_R wrote:
At 8/10/2014 4:55:43 PM, Arasa wrote:
It is true that, if man were left to his own nature, he would be destroyed and would go to Hell. Without God's grace, man will all go to Hell, Christian or not. God's grace is forgiveness of sins. Think about it like this: God opens the door to heaven and says that He will allow mankind to choose for themselves whether or not they enter through it. To enter through it, they must meet certain qualifications in their hearts (unless you're a catholic or Jew, then you must also meet qualifications by actions). God does not say that He will only put it in some peoples' hearts to come through that door, but instead He says "I have given you free will, and so it is for you to decide whether or not you enter through this door."

Recap - Without God's grace- the opening of the door, none would enter the kingdom. It is by grace that we are even given the possibility of entering through that door. Man has free will to decide whether or not they will live in order to get through that door.

Make sense?

No, it doesn't. What is in one's heart is the result of what they believe to be true. However, belief is not a choice and therefore God has not given us free will to decide.

How is belief not a choice? You choose to believe in certain things, surely the diversity of beliefs in the world is evidence enough of this

God chose every belief for His people during this age to keep them deceived while working through His prophets and saints who testify to our created existence within His mind. Every man believes in something of this world but only a few chosen ones become prophets, saints and believers of the gospel that us saints preach to them.

: That belief certainly portrays God in a dispicable light. Tell me then, under these views, if a person commits unspeakable evil because of these beliefs that God has deceived them with, will that person still go to heaven?

Yes. According to the prophecies of God, ALL His people will be saved from their wicked flesh of this wicked world.

: That belief points heavily toward every instance of evil in the world as a specific act by God. Such a thing completely contradicts a God who is immeasurably merciful, loving, and forgiving. Such a God is not the God of Christianity, Mormonism, Judaism, Islam, or Hinduism. These five views conflict heavily, and still none will touch those two conclusions.

It may contradict your perception of who the deity in your mind is but it doesn't contradict the prophecies that God had His prophets write about Him;

God is the Creator of the "tree of the knowledge of good and evil", which is what we observe in this world.

Isaiah 45:7
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.


August Rasa, a 4:53 mind

My question for you now, is this: "Why then, should we be good?"

Or rather, "Why is there a difference between good and evil?"

Or furthermore, "If God has the capacity for evil, then how can God be a maximally perfect being? That is, how can God be completely good if He has the capacity for Evil?"

I hope i do not sound hostile in this response, as I am genuinely interested in your answers.

August Rasa, a 4:53 mind

God is the Creator of good and evil during this age which will be destroyed soon. We won't know the difference between good and evil in the next age because there won't be any illusions that deceive us.

What one person perceives as evil in this world doesn't necessarily mean it is evil to someone's else's perspective. This causes a lot of confusion in this world which God planned to do. He's the one who created the tree of the knowledge of good and evil to confuse us with. This hid the tree of life ( the invisible spirit of man ) from ALL God's people and this is the reason why He used His prophets and saints to teach us who we are in Him. God's people thought the illusions of flesh and the objects of this world were there reality but it's not. It's only a dream that's temporary during this age. In the next age, we'll understand that everything is a dream of God's that we're characters in.
Arasa
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8/12/2014 4:17:53 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/11/2014 7:05:07 PM, Double_R wrote:
At 8/11/2014 3:27:23 AM, Arasa wrote:
At 8/10/2014 5:54:34 PM, Double_R wrote:
At 8/10/2014 4:55:43 PM, Arasa wrote:
It is true that, if man were left to his own nature, he would be destroyed and would go to Hell. Without God's grace, man will all go to Hell, Christian or not. God's grace is forgiveness of sins. Think about it like this: God opens the door to heaven and says that He will allow mankind to choose for themselves whether or not they enter through it. To enter through it, they must meet certain qualifications in their hearts (unless you're a catholic or Jew, then you must also meet qualifications by actions). God does not say that He will only put it in some peoples' hearts to come through that door, but instead He says "I have given you free will, and so it is for you to decide whether or not you enter through this door."

Recap - Without God's grace- the opening of the door, none would enter the kingdom. It is by grace that we are even given the possibility of entering through that door. Man has free will to decide whether or not they will live in order to get through that door.

Make sense?

No, it doesn't. What is in one's heart is the result of what they believe to be true. However, belief is not a choice and therefore God has not given us free will to decide.

How is belief not a choice? You choose to believe in certain things, surely the diversity of beliefs in the world is evidence enough of this

Can you chose to believe you can fly?

yes. Notice how this does not give you the ability to fly. You have the free will to believe that you can fly, and you have the free will to try and fly without mechanical assistance. It doesn't mean that you have the ability to fly without mechanical assistance. You have the free will to believe in God. This is apparent, because you have the free will to not believe in God, as shown by the multitude of Atheists alone.

August Rasa, a 4:53 mind
Arasa
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8/12/2014 4:34:09 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
God is the Creator of good and evil during this age which will be destroyed soon. We won't know the difference between good and evil in the next age because there won't be any illusions that deceive us.

What one person perceives as evil in this world doesn't necessarily mean it is evil to someone's else's perspective. This causes a lot of confusion in this world which God planned to do. He's the one who created the tree of the knowledge of good and evil to confuse us with. This hid the tree of life ( the invisible spirit of man ) from ALL God's people and this is the reason why He used His prophets and saints to teach us who we are in Him. God's people thought the illusions of flesh and the objects of this world were there reality but it's not. It's only a dream that's temporary during this age. In the next age, we'll understand that everything is a dream of God's that we're characters in.

I'm going to key in on "What one person perceives as evil in this world doesn't necessarily mean it is evil to someone's else's perspective."

What you're arguing for here is called Subjective Morals. That is to say, morals only exist as long as the people do, and they only exist in their form (right and wrong) as long as people believe them to be that way. To say that morals are subjective is to say that God's morals are subjective, and that morals pre-dated God Himself. Much like the Greeks argued that Hubris and Fate pre-dated the gods and the gods were subject to them as well, you are arguing that God is subject to subjective morals. God cannot say "This is right, and this is wrong" because there really is no right or wrong.

Subjective morals contradict the notion of a transcendent God. Without a transcendent God, God cannot have created the universe. If God cannot have created the universe, then God is a product OF the universe. If God is a product OF the universe, then God is not deity, but on equal footing with man.

August Rasa, a 4:53 mind
TheGreatAndPowerful
Posts: 3,012
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8/12/2014 8:02:53 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/6/2014 1:39:33 AM, sovereigngracereigns wrote:
If a man goes to Hell, it's all his fault.
But if a man goes to Heaven, it's by God's grace.

So, if God leaves you to your will, you will go straight to Hell.

Why does God leave me to my will?

And if it's God's will save you, you'll be saved.

"There is nothing that keeps a man out of heaven but his own will.
But, there is nothing that will keep a man out of hell but God's will.
Eternal life is by God's will, God's gift, and God's work.
(Romans 9:16; 6:23; II Timothy 1:9)
But eternal death is the result of man's will, man's work, and man's merit. (Proverbs 1:23-26; Romans 6:23; 10:21)"


-- Pastor Don Fortner
bornofgod
Posts: 11,322
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8/12/2014 9:06:22 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/12/2014 4:34:09 AM, Arasa wrote:
God is the Creator of good and evil during this age which will be destroyed soon. We won't know the difference between good and evil in the next age because there won't be any illusions that deceive us.

What one person perceives as evil in this world doesn't necessarily mean it is evil to someone's else's perspective. This causes a lot of confusion in this world which God planned to do. He's the one who created the tree of the knowledge of good and evil to confuse us with. This hid the tree of life ( the invisible spirit of man ) from ALL God's people and this is the reason why He used His prophets and saints to teach us who we are in Him. God's people thought the illusions of flesh and the objects of this world were there reality but it's not. It's only a dream that's temporary during this age. In the next age, we'll understand that everything is a dream of God's that we're characters in.

I'm going to key in on "What one person perceives as evil in this world doesn't necessarily mean it is evil to someone's else's perspective."

What you're arguing for here is called Subjective Morals. That is to say, morals only exist as long as the people do, and they only exist in their form (right and wrong) as long as people believe them to be that way. To say that morals are subjective is to say that God's morals are subjective, and that morals pre-dated God Himself. Much like the Greeks argued that Hubris and Fate pre-dated the gods and the gods were subject to them as well, you are arguing that God is subject to subjective morals. God cannot say "This is right, and this is wrong" because there really is no right or wrong.

Subjective morals contradict the notion of a transcendent God. Without a transcendent God, God cannot have created the universe. If God cannot have created the universe, then God is a product OF the universe. If God is a product OF the universe, then God is not deity, but on equal footing with man.


August Rasa, a 4:53 mind

Why do all unbelievers have to twist everything us saints write and speak for our Creator?
Arasa
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8/12/2014 9:09:47 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/12/2014 9:06:22 AM, bornofgod wrote:
At 8/12/2014 4:34:09 AM, Arasa wrote:
God is the Creator of good and evil during this age which will be destroyed soon. We won't know the difference between good and evil in the next age because there won't be any illusions that deceive us.

What one person perceives as evil in this world doesn't necessarily mean it is evil to someone's else's perspective. This causes a lot of confusion in this world which God planned to do. He's the one who created the tree of the knowledge of good and evil to confuse us with. This hid the tree of life ( the invisible spirit of man ) from ALL God's people and this is the reason why He used His prophets and saints to teach us who we are in Him. God's people thought the illusions of flesh and the objects of this world were there reality but it's not. It's only a dream that's temporary during this age. In the next age, we'll understand that everything is a dream of God's that we're characters in.

I'm going to key in on "What one person perceives as evil in this world doesn't necessarily mean it is evil to someone's else's perspective."

What you're arguing for here is called Subjective Morals. That is to say, morals only exist as long as the people do, and they only exist in their form (right and wrong) as long as people believe them to be that way. To say that morals are subjective is to say that God's morals are subjective, and that morals pre-dated God Himself. Much like the Greeks argued that Hubris and Fate pre-dated the gods and the gods were subject to them as well, you are arguing that God is subject to subjective morals. God cannot say "This is right, and this is wrong" because there really is no right or wrong.

Subjective morals contradict the notion of a transcendent God. Without a transcendent God, God cannot have created the universe. If God cannot have created the universe, then God is a product OF the universe. If God is a product OF the universe, then God is not deity, but on equal footing with man.


August Rasa, a 4:53 mind

Why do all unbelievers have to twist everything us saints write and speak for our Creator?

What I am hearing is you calling me an unbeliever and leaving it at that. What I am not hearing, and would like to hear next, is a defense of the point you were trying to make. What you've done is told me that I have twisted the words and come to a wrong conclusion. Now you need to explain the actual meaning of what you said, and a conclusion that you yourself draw from that meaning.

August Rasa, a 4:53 mind
bornofgod
Posts: 11,322
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8/12/2014 9:25:17 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/12/2014 9:09:47 AM, Arasa wrote:
At 8/12/2014 9:06:22 AM, bornofgod wrote:
At 8/12/2014 4:34:09 AM, Arasa wrote:
God is the Creator of good and evil during this age which will be destroyed soon. We won't know the difference between good and evil in the next age because there won't be any illusions that deceive us.

What one person perceives as evil in this world doesn't necessarily mean it is evil to someone's else's perspective. This causes a lot of confusion in this world which God planned to do. He's the one who created the tree of the knowledge of good and evil to confuse us with. This hid the tree of life ( the invisible spirit of man ) from ALL God's people and this is the reason why He used His prophets and saints to teach us who we are in Him. God's people thought the illusions of flesh and the objects of this world were there reality but it's not. It's only a dream that's temporary during this age. In the next age, we'll understand that everything is a dream of God's that we're characters in.

I'm going to key in on "What one person perceives as evil in this world doesn't necessarily mean it is evil to someone's else's perspective."

What you're arguing for here is called Subjective Morals. That is to say, morals only exist as long as the people do, and they only exist in their form (right and wrong) as long as people believe them to be that way. To say that morals are subjective is to say that God's morals are subjective, and that morals pre-dated God Himself. Much like the Greeks argued that Hubris and Fate pre-dated the gods and the gods were subject to them as well, you are arguing that God is subject to subjective morals. God cannot say "This is right, and this is wrong" because there really is no right or wrong.

Subjective morals contradict the notion of a transcendent God. Without a transcendent God, God cannot have created the universe. If God cannot have created the universe, then God is a product OF the universe. If God is a product OF the universe, then God is not deity, but on equal footing with man.


August Rasa, a 4:53 mind

Why do all unbelievers have to twist everything us saints write and speak for our Creator?

What I am hearing is you calling me an unbeliever and leaving it at that. What I am not hearing, and would like to hear next, is a defense of the point you were trying to make. What you've done is told me that I have twisted the words and come to a wrong conclusion. Now you need to explain the actual meaning of what you said, and a conclusion that you yourself draw from that meaning.


August Rasa, a 4:53 mind

The tree of the knowledge of good and evil is this world that we human beings observe, including the flesh that we perceive. The visible world is nothing but an illusion that will end soon so anything that is observed as being evil is a lie that was created by our invisible Creator who planned this tree of the knowledge of good and evil to confuse His people during this first age.

Once we all die in this world, we will never experience good and evil again. We will awaken in new flesh and learn that everything we observe are only illusions and nothing to be afraid of. We won't understand what "good and evil" mean.

What I mean by all this is that good and evil isn't just about morality. Some people see aliens while others see Jesus floating in the clouds. These are observable visible objects that are unique to certain individuals that God forced them to see through His plan to totally confuse His people with. If you haven't seen Jesus floating in the clouds or an alien, you will think the people who actually saw these objects were crazy, which is called evil to some people.

War doesn't appear evil to most presidents who are trying to obtain peace in their countries but anyone who has family members killed during the war find it very un-peaceful, even long after the war.

So it's the tree of the knowledge of good and evil ( this world ) that is the deceiver of the Truth and our true existence as invisible vibrations that never perish.
Arasa
Posts: 380
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8/12/2014 9:33:01 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/12/2014 9:25:17 AM, bornofgod wrote:
At 8/12/2014 9:09:47 AM, Arasa wrote:
At 8/12/2014 9:06:22 AM, bornofgod wrote:
At 8/12/2014 4:34:09 AM, Arasa wrote:
God is the Creator of good and evil during this age which will be destroyed soon. We won't know the difference between good and evil in the next age because there won't be any illusions that deceive us.

What one person perceives as evil in this world doesn't necessarily mean it is evil to someone's else's perspective. This causes a lot of confusion in this world which God planned to do. He's the one who created the tree of the knowledge of good and evil to confuse us with. This hid the tree of life ( the invisible spirit of man ) from ALL God's people and this is the reason why He used His prophets and saints to teach us who we are in Him. God's people thought the illusions of flesh and the objects of this world were there reality but it's not. It's only a dream that's temporary during this age. In the next age, we'll understand that everything is a dream of God's that we're characters in.

I'm going to key in on "What one person perceives as evil in this world doesn't necessarily mean it is evil to someone's else's perspective."

What you're arguing for here is called Subjective Morals. That is to say, morals only exist as long as the people do, and they only exist in their form (right and wrong) as long as people believe them to be that way. To say that morals are subjective is to say that God's morals are subjective, and that morals pre-dated God Himself. Much like the Greeks argued that Hubris and Fate pre-dated the gods and the gods were subject to them as well, you are arguing that God is subject to subjective morals. God cannot say "This is right, and this is wrong" because there really is no right or wrong.

Subjective morals contradict the notion of a transcendent God. Without a transcendent God, God cannot have created the universe. If God cannot have created the universe, then God is a product OF the universe. If God is a product OF the universe, then God is not deity, but on equal footing with man.


August Rasa, a 4:53 mind

Why do all unbelievers have to twist everything us saints write and speak for our Creator?

What I am hearing is you calling me an unbeliever and leaving it at that. What I am not hearing, and would like to hear next, is a defense of the point you were trying to make. What you've done is told me that I have twisted the words and come to a wrong conclusion. Now you need to explain the actual meaning of what you said, and a conclusion that you yourself draw from that meaning.


August Rasa, a 4:53 mind

The tree of the knowledge of good and evil is this world that we human beings observe, including the flesh that we perceive. The visible world is nothing but an illusion that will end soon so anything that is observed as being evil is a lie that was created by our invisible Creator who planned this tree of the knowledge of good and evil to confuse His people during this first age.

Once we all die in this world, we will never experience good and evil again. We will awaken in new flesh and learn that everything we observe are only illusions and nothing to be afraid of. We won't understand what "good and evil" mean.

What I mean by all this is that good and evil isn't just about morality. Some people see aliens while others see Jesus floating in the clouds. These are observable visible objects that are unique to certain individuals that God forced them to see through His plan to totally confuse His people with. If you haven't seen Jesus floating in the clouds or an alien, you will think the people who actually saw these objects were crazy, which is called evil to some people.

War doesn't appear evil to most presidents who are trying to obtain peace in their countries but anyone who has family members killed during the war find it very un-peaceful, even long after the war.

So it's the tree of the knowledge of good and evil ( this world ) that is the deceiver of the Truth and our true existence as invisible vibrations that never perish.

I'm going to key in on this part. Let me know If I am once again I am twisting and contorting beyond their meaning... "anything that is observed as being evil is a lie that was created by our invisible Creator"

If this is so, then God is capable of lying. This takes away from the maximally good being that is God, and so therefore says that God is not maximally good- that God Himself has in him the same evil as man. God even gives the command not to bear false witness, which He would be doing if He lied directly to mankind

August Rasa, a 4:53 mind
bornofgod
Posts: 11,322
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8/12/2014 9:39:12 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/12/2014 9:33:01 AM, Arasa wrote:
At 8/12/2014 9:25:17 AM, bornofgod wrote:
At 8/12/2014 9:09:47 AM, Arasa wrote:
At 8/12/2014 9:06:22 AM, bornofgod wrote:
At 8/12/2014 4:34:09 AM, Arasa wrote:
God is the Creator of good and evil during this age which will be destroyed soon. We won't know the difference between good and evil in the next age because there won't be any illusions that deceive us.

What one person perceives as evil in this world doesn't necessarily mean it is evil to someone's else's perspective. This causes a lot of confusion in this world which God planned to do. He's the one who created the tree of the knowledge of good and evil to confuse us with. This hid the tree of life ( the invisible spirit of man ) from ALL God's people and this is the reason why He used His prophets and saints to teach us who we are in Him. God's people thought the illusions of flesh and the objects of this world were there reality but it's not. It's only a dream that's temporary during this age. In the next age, we'll understand that everything is a dream of God's that we're characters in.

I'm going to key in on "What one person perceives as evil in this world doesn't necessarily mean it is evil to someone's else's perspective."

What you're arguing for here is called Subjective Morals. That is to say, morals only exist as long as the people do, and they only exist in their form (right and wrong) as long as people believe them to be that way. To say that morals are subjective is to say that God's morals are subjective, and that morals pre-dated God Himself. Much like the Greeks argued that Hubris and Fate pre-dated the gods and the gods were subject to them as well, you are arguing that God is subject to subjective morals. God cannot say "This is right, and this is wrong" because there really is no right or wrong.

Subjective morals contradict the notion of a transcendent God. Without a transcendent God, God cannot have created the universe. If God cannot have created the universe, then God is a product OF the universe. If God is a product OF the universe, then God is not deity, but on equal footing with man.


August Rasa, a 4:53 mind

Why do all unbelievers have to twist everything us saints write and speak for our Creator?

What I am hearing is you calling me an unbeliever and leaving it at that. What I am not hearing, and would like to hear next, is a defense of the point you were trying to make. What you've done is told me that I have twisted the words and come to a wrong conclusion. Now you need to explain the actual meaning of what you said, and a conclusion that you yourself draw from that meaning.


August Rasa, a 4:53 mind

The tree of the knowledge of good and evil is this world that we human beings observe, including the flesh that we perceive. The visible world is nothing but an illusion that will end soon so anything that is observed as being evil is a lie that was created by our invisible Creator who planned this tree of the knowledge of good and evil to confuse His people during this first age.

Once we all die in this world, we will never experience good and evil again. We will awaken in new flesh and learn that everything we observe are only illusions and nothing to be afraid of. We won't understand what "good and evil" mean.

What I mean by all this is that good and evil isn't just about morality. Some people see aliens while others see Jesus floating in the clouds. These are observable visible objects that are unique to certain individuals that God forced them to see through His plan to totally confuse His people with. If you haven't seen Jesus floating in the clouds or an alien, you will think the people who actually saw these objects were crazy, which is called evil to some people.

War doesn't appear evil to most presidents who are trying to obtain peace in their countries but anyone who has family members killed during the war find it very un-peaceful, even long after the war.

So it's the tree of the knowledge of good and evil ( this world ) that is the deceiver of the Truth and our true existence as invisible vibrations that never perish.

I'm going to key in on this part. Let me know If I am once again I am twisting and contorting beyond their meaning... "anything that is observed as being evil is a lie that was created by our invisible Creator"

If this is so, then God is capable of lying. This takes away from the maximally good being that is God, and so therefore says that God is not maximally good- that God Himself has in him the same evil as man. God even gives the command not to bear false witness, which He would be doing if He lied directly to mankind


August Rasa, a 4:53 mind

God is our Creator so He can do whatever He damn pleases.
Arasa
Posts: 380
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8/12/2014 9:44:06 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
The tree of the knowledge of good and evil is this world that we human beings observe, including the flesh that we perceive. The visible world is nothing but an illusion that will end soon so anything that is observed as being evil is a lie that was created by our invisible Creator who planned this tree of the knowledge of good and evil to confuse His people during this first age.

Once we all die in this world, we will never experience good and evil again. We will awaken in new flesh and learn that everything we observe are only illusions and nothing to be afraid of. We won't understand what "good and evil" mean.

What I mean by all this is that good and evil isn't just about morality. Some people see aliens while others see Jesus floating in the clouds. These are observable visible objects that are unique to certain individuals that God forced them to see through His plan to totally confuse His people with. If you haven't seen Jesus floating in the clouds or an alien, you will think the people who actually saw these objects were crazy, which is called evil to some people.

War doesn't appear evil to most presidents who are trying to obtain peace in their countries but anyone who has family members killed during the war find it very un-peaceful, even long after the war.

So it's the tree of the knowledge of good and evil ( this world ) that is the deceiver of the Truth and our true existence as invisible vibrations that never perish.

I'm going to key in on this part. Let me know If I am once again I am twisting and contorting beyond their meaning... "anything that is observed as being evil is a lie that was created by our invisible Creator"

If this is so, then God is capable of lying. This takes away from the maximally good being that is God, and so therefore says that God is not maximally good- that God Himself has in him the same evil as man. God even gives the command not to bear false witness, which He would be doing if He lied directly to mankind


August Rasa, a 4:53 mind

God is our Creator so He can do whatever He damn pleases.

So then, because we do not differ from God by way of morals and imperfection, then our differences must be purely academic. "God is all-powerful because he can do anything. He can do anything, because He knows how"

It is simple to say that someday we will have learned everything, and then will be gods ourselves- equal to our creator.

This is absurdity.

August Rasa, a 4:53 mind
bornofgod
Posts: 11,322
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8/12/2014 10:09:10 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/12/2014 9:44:06 AM, Arasa wrote:
The tree of the knowledge of good and evil is this world that we human beings observe, including the flesh that we perceive. The visible world is nothing but an illusion that will end soon so anything that is observed as being evil is a lie that was created by our invisible Creator who planned this tree of the knowledge of good and evil to confuse His people during this first age.

Once we all die in this world, we will never experience good and evil again. We will awaken in new flesh and learn that everything we observe are only illusions and nothing to be afraid of. We won't understand what "good and evil" mean.

What I mean by all this is that good and evil isn't just about morality. Some people see aliens while others see Jesus floating in the clouds. These are observable visible objects that are unique to certain individuals that God forced them to see through His plan to totally confuse His people with. If you haven't seen Jesus floating in the clouds or an alien, you will think the people who actually saw these objects were crazy, which is called evil to some people.

War doesn't appear evil to most presidents who are trying to obtain peace in their countries but anyone who has family members killed during the war find it very un-peaceful, even long after the war.

So it's the tree of the knowledge of good and evil ( this world ) that is the deceiver of the Truth and our true existence as invisible vibrations that never perish.

I'm going to key in on this part. Let me know If I am once again I am twisting and contorting beyond their meaning... "anything that is observed as being evil is a lie that was created by our invisible Creator"

If this is so, then God is capable of lying. This takes away from the maximally good being that is God, and so therefore says that God is not maximally good- that God Himself has in him the same evil as man. God even gives the command not to bear false witness, which He would be doing if He lied directly to mankind


August Rasa, a 4:53 mind

God is our Creator so He can do whatever He damn pleases.

So then, because we do not differ from God by way of morals and imperfection, then our differences must be purely academic. "God is all-powerful because he can do anything. He can do anything, because He knows how"

It is simple to say that someday we will have learned everything, and then will be gods ourselves- equal to our creator.

This is absurdity.

August Rasa, a 4:53 mind

If you could understand that we're only characters in God's dream, then you would realize that we're not real and never were real. The only thing that's real is our invisible Creator ( God ) and His thoughts.
Arasa
Posts: 380
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8/12/2014 1:37:35 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/12/2014 10:09:10 AM, bornofgod wrote:
At 8/12/2014 9:44:06 AM, Arasa wrote:
The tree of the knowledge of good and evil is this world that we human beings observe, including the flesh that we perceive. The visible world is nothing but an illusion that will end soon so anything that is observed as being evil is a lie that was created by our invisible Creator who planned this tree of the knowledge of good and evil to confuse His people during this first age.

Once we all die in this world, we will never experience good and evil again. We will awaken in new flesh and learn that everything we observe are only illusions and nothing to be afraid of. We won't understand what "good and evil" mean.

What I mean by all this is that good and evil isn't just about morality. Some people see aliens while others see Jesus floating in the clouds. These are observable visible objects that are unique to certain individuals that God forced them to see through His plan to totally confuse His people with. If you haven't seen Jesus floating in the clouds or an alien, you will think the people who actually saw these objects were crazy, which is called evil to some people.

War doesn't appear evil to most presidents who are trying to obtain peace in their countries but anyone who has family members killed during the war find it very un-peaceful, even long after the war.

So it's the tree of the knowledge of good and evil ( this world ) that is the deceiver of the Truth and our true existence as invisible vibrations that never perish.

I'm going to key in on this part. Let me know If I am once again I am twisting and contorting beyond their meaning... "anything that is observed as being evil is a lie that was created by our invisible Creator"

If this is so, then God is capable of lying. This takes away from the maximally good being that is God, and so therefore says that God is not maximally good- that God Himself has in him the same evil as man. God even gives the command not to bear false witness, which He would be doing if He lied directly to mankind


August Rasa, a 4:53 mind

God is our Creator so He can do whatever He damn pleases.

So then, because we do not differ from God by way of morals and imperfection, then our differences must be purely academic. "God is all-powerful because he can do anything. He can do anything, because He knows how"

It is simple to say that someday we will have learned everything, and then will be gods ourselves- equal to our creator.

This is absurdity.

August Rasa, a 4:53 mind

If you could understand that we're only characters in God's dream, then you would realize that we're not real and never were real. The only thing that's real is our invisible Creator ( God ) and His thoughts.

So in that sense, do whatever you please and there will be no consequences because we aren't really here. Well this has been an interesting discussion to say the least...
bornofgod
Posts: 11,322
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8/13/2014 9:51:33 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/12/2014 1:37:35 PM, Arasa wrote:
At 8/12/2014 10:09:10 AM, bornofgod wrote:
At 8/12/2014 9:44:06 AM, Arasa wrote:
The tree of the knowledge of good and evil is this world that we human beings observe, including the flesh that we perceive. The visible world is nothing but an illusion that will end soon so anything that is observed as being evil is a lie that was created by our invisible Creator who planned this tree of the knowledge of good and evil to confuse His people during this first age.

Once we all die in this world, we will never experience good and evil again. We will awaken in new flesh and learn that everything we observe are only illusions and nothing to be afraid of. We won't understand what "good and evil" mean.

What I mean by all this is that good and evil isn't just about morality. Some people see aliens while others see Jesus floating in the clouds. These are observable visible objects that are unique to certain individuals that God forced them to see through His plan to totally confuse His people with. If you haven't seen Jesus floating in the clouds or an alien, you will think the people who actually saw these objects were crazy, which is called evil to some people.

War doesn't appear evil to most presidents who are trying to obtain peace in their countries but anyone who has family members killed during the war find it very un-peaceful, even long after the war.

So it's the tree of the knowledge of good and evil ( this world ) that is the deceiver of the Truth and our true existence as invisible vibrations that never perish.

I'm going to key in on this part. Let me know If I am once again I am twisting and contorting beyond their meaning... "anything that is observed as being evil is a lie that was created by our invisible Creator"

If this is so, then God is capable of lying. This takes away from the maximally good being that is God, and so therefore says that God is not maximally good- that God Himself has in him the same evil as man. God even gives the command not to bear false witness, which He would be doing if He lied directly to mankind


August Rasa, a 4:53 mind

God is our Creator so He can do whatever He damn pleases.

So then, because we do not differ from God by way of morals and imperfection, then our differences must be purely academic. "God is all-powerful because he can do anything. He can do anything, because He knows how"

It is simple to say that someday we will have learned everything, and then will be gods ourselves- equal to our creator.

This is absurdity.

August Rasa, a 4:53 mind

If you could understand that we're only characters in God's dream, then you would realize that we're not real and never were real. The only thing that's real is our invisible Creator ( God ) and His thoughts.

So in that sense, do whatever you please and there will be no consequences because we aren't really here. Well this has been an interesting discussion to say the least...

We all do exactly as we were planned to think, do and say. God's stupid people actually believe they have free will in His dreams.

Jeremiah 10
14: Every man is stupid and without knowledge; every goldsmith is put to shame by his idols; for his images are false, and there is no breath in them.

Psalms 22
29: Yea, to him shall all the proud of the earth bow down; before him shall bow all who go down to the dust, and he who cannot keep himself alive.
Arasa
Posts: 380
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8/14/2014 4:37:53 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/13/2014 9:51:33 PM, bornofgod wrote:
At 8/12/2014 1:37:35 PM, Arasa wrote:
At 8/12/2014 10:09:10 AM, bornofgod wrote:
At 8/12/2014 9:44:06 AM, Arasa wrote:
The tree of the knowledge of good and evil is this world that we human beings observe, including the flesh that we perceive. The visible world is nothing but an illusion that will end soon so anything that is observed as being evil is a lie that was created by our invisible Creator who planned this tree of the knowledge of good and evil to confuse His people during this first age.

Once we all die in this world, we will never experience good and evil again. We will awaken in new flesh and learn that everything we observe are only illusions and nothing to be afraid of. We won't understand what "good and evil" mean.

What I mean by all this is that good and evil isn't just about morality. Some people see aliens while others see Jesus floating in the clouds. These are observable visible objects that are unique to certain individuals that God forced them to see through His plan to totally confuse His people with. If you haven't seen Jesus floating in the clouds or an alien, you will think the people who actually saw these objects were crazy, which is called evil to some people.

War doesn't appear evil to most presidents who are trying to obtain peace in their countries but anyone who has family members killed during the war find it very un-peaceful, even long after the war.

So it's the tree of the knowledge of good and evil ( this world ) that is the deceiver of the Truth and our true existence as invisible vibrations that never perish.

I'm going to key in on this part. Let me know If I am once again I am twisting and contorting beyond their meaning... "anything that is observed as being evil is a lie that was created by our invisible Creator"

If this is so, then God is capable of lying. This takes away from the maximally good being that is God, and so therefore says that God is not maximally good- that God Himself has in him the same evil as man. God even gives the command not to bear false witness, which He would be doing if He lied directly to mankind


August Rasa, a 4:53 mind

God is our Creator so He can do whatever He damn pleases.

So then, because we do not differ from God by way of morals and imperfection, then our differences must be purely academic. "God is all-powerful because he can do anything. He can do anything, because He knows how"

It is simple to say that someday we will have learned everything, and then will be gods ourselves- equal to our creator.

This is absurdity.

August Rasa, a 4:53 mind

If you could understand that we're only characters in God's dream, then you would realize that we're not real and never were real. The only thing that's real is our invisible Creator ( God ) and His thoughts.

So in that sense, do whatever you please and there will be no consequences because we aren't really here. Well this has been an interesting discussion to say the least...

We all do exactly as we were planned to think, do and say. God's stupid people actually believe they have free will in His dreams.

Jeremiah 10
14: Every man is stupid and without knowledge; every goldsmith is put to shame by his idols; for his images are false, and there is no breath in them.

Psalms 22
29: Yea, to him shall all the proud of the earth bow down; before him shall bow all who go down to the dust, and he who cannot keep himself alive.

Then in that case, God is evil, and we are mindless puppets, and no one will go to Hell because their evil is not their own nor their fault or of their own volition. In this view, Hell does not exist, and everything is permissible.

What you're getting wrong is that you're assuming God's omniscience is contradictory to free will. I will tell you this now, and again: God gives you the free will to choose between good and evil, knowing fully and beforehand the choice that you will make.

August Rasa, a 4:53 mind