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Atheist Bahai

Badi-Nontheist
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8/7/2014 1:57:03 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Hi,

I am an atheist Bahai and new here. I started a few debates but just getting warmed up.

One question I get often is that people ask how can a Bahai be atheist if Bahai is a "religion" that comes from apparently the Abrahamic branch? Opening a Bahai book written by a Bahai founder will yield at least one reference to God in the very first sentence, so God is always part of Bahai texts. How then can a Bahai be an atheist?

The simple answer is that irfaniyyat (gnostic mysticism) is the core the Bahai system, and the "religion" component of the Bahai system is set up only to enable "believers" to attain Gnosticism of atheism through independent investigation and meditation.

Bahaullah ultimately claims to be the appearance of the Ubknowable God of Abrahamic, Aryan (Ie Zoeoastrian), and Dharmic religions, as well as Native beliefs.
LogicalLunatic
Posts: 1,633
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8/7/2014 4:34:38 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/7/2014 1:57:03 PM, Badi-Nontheist wrote:
Hi,

I am an atheist Bahai and new here. I started a few debates but just getting warmed up.

One question I get often is that people ask how can a Bahai be atheist if Bahai is a "religion" that comes from apparently the Abrahamic branch? Opening a Bahai book written by a Bahai founder will yield at least one reference to God in the very first sentence, so God is always part of Bahai texts. How then can a Bahai be an atheist?

The simple answer is that irfaniyyat (gnostic mysticism) is the core the Bahai system, and the "religion" component of the Bahai system is set up only to enable "believers" to attain Gnosticism of atheism through independent investigation and meditation.

Bahaullah ultimately claims to be the appearance of the Ubknowable God of Abrahamic, Aryan (Ie Zoeoastrian), and Dharmic religions, as well as Native beliefs.

Could you kindly explain what Bahais believe? Basically, an explanation of your religion.
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PeacefulChaos
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8/7/2014 4:55:33 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/7/2014 1:57:03 PM, Badi-Nontheist wrote:
Hi,

I am an atheist Bahai and new here. I started a few debates but just getting warmed up.

Hello, I am also a Baha'i; however, I must respectfully disagree with what you have stated.


The simple answer is that irfaniyyat (gnostic mysticism) is the core the Bahai system, and the "religion" component of the Bahai system is set up only to enable "believers" to attain Gnosticism of atheism through independent investigation and meditation.

Bahaullah ultimately claims to be the appearance of the Ubknowable God of Abrahamic, Aryan (Ie Zoeoastrian), and Dharmic religions, as well as Native beliefs.

Baha'u'llah does not claim to be the appearance of God. If I am mistaken, could you please reference me to such a source?

Regardless, it has been stated numerous times by Baha'u'llah and Abdu'l-Baha that God most certainly exists. Indeed, even arguments for his existence have been made.
PeacefulChaos
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8/7/2014 4:58:17 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/7/2014 4:34:38 PM, LogicalLunatic wrote:
At 8/7/2014 1:57:03 PM, Badi-Nontheist wrote:
Hi,

I am an atheist Bahai and new here. I started a few debates but just getting warmed up.

One question I get often is that people ask how can a Bahai be atheist if Bahai is a "religion" that comes from apparently the Abrahamic branch? Opening a Bahai book written by a Bahai founder will yield at least one reference to God in the very first sentence, so God is always part of Bahai texts. How then can a Bahai be an atheist?

The simple answer is that irfaniyyat (gnostic mysticism) is the core the Bahai system, and the "religion" component of the Bahai system is set up only to enable "believers" to attain Gnosticism of atheism through independent investigation and meditation.

Bahaullah ultimately claims to be the appearance of the Ubknowable God of Abrahamic, Aryan (Ie Zoeoastrian), and Dharmic religions, as well as Native beliefs.

Could you kindly explain what Bahais believe? Basically, an explanation of your religion.

Baha'is have several fundamental concepts that all focus on unity:

Unity/equality of religion
Unity/equality of mankind
Unity/equality of countries

We believe that all major world religions were ultimately divinely inspired and thus came from a single God.
LogicalLunatic
Posts: 1,633
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8/7/2014 4:59:36 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/7/2014 4:58:17 PM, PeacefulChaos wrote:
At 8/7/2014 4:34:38 PM, LogicalLunatic wrote:
At 8/7/2014 1:57:03 PM, Badi-Nontheist wrote:
Hi,

I am an atheist Bahai and new here. I started a few debates but just getting warmed up.

One question I get often is that people ask how can a Bahai be atheist if Bahai is a "religion" that comes from apparently the Abrahamic branch? Opening a Bahai book written by a Bahai founder will yield at least one reference to God in the very first sentence, so God is always part of Bahai texts. How then can a Bahai be an atheist?

The simple answer is that irfaniyyat (gnostic mysticism) is the core the Bahai system, and the "religion" component of the Bahai system is set up only to enable "believers" to attain Gnosticism of atheism through independent investigation and meditation.

Bahaullah ultimately claims to be the appearance of the Ubknowable God of Abrahamic, Aryan (Ie Zoeoastrian), and Dharmic religions, as well as Native beliefs.

Could you kindly explain what Bahais believe? Basically, an explanation of your religion.

Baha'is have several fundamental concepts that all focus on unity:

Unity/equality of religion
Unity/equality of mankind
Unity/equality of countries

We believe that all major world religions were ultimately divinely inspired and thus came from a single God.

So basically it's Religious Pluralism combined with Egalitarianism and a desire for a OWG.
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Badi-Nontheist
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8/7/2014 4:59:57 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
There are different levels of belief in the Baha'i system. One is the belief as is presented in marketing material is Western languages, and another is what is essentially a mystical component of the Baha'i system that can never be organized or defined in theistic fashion. Mystical gnosis and realization of the station of Baha'u'llah as the promised King of earth and heaven is the essential purpose of the outward "religion" called "the Baha'i Faith".

Furthermore belief is held to be a preliminary state. A greater state is a state of certitude (certainty). Belief or faith are lesser forms of being.

The Baha'i system is outwardly and in "religious" form known as "The Baha'i Faith", which is a religion that appears in the Western languages to be an "Abrahamic" faith. However in reality it is not purely Abrahamic because Baha'u'llah's writings are split in almost half in Arabic (Abrahamic) and Persian (Aryan). Baha'u'llah claims to be the promised one of the Zoroastrian faiths and systems, and is a direct descendant of the last Zoroastrian emperor who last lived in Mazandaran (who then converted to Islam). Baha'u'llah was born in the Mazandaran province and his father was a minister and land owner in the court of the Islamic Shah.

Also, the Baha'i system is not entirely Abrahamic because the story of Adam, Lucifer, and God is different from the versions recorded by the Abrahamic Religions (Islam, Christianity, Judaism). In the Abrahamic version, God instructs Lucifer and the other angels to bow to Adam but Lucifer refuses while the other angels obeyed and bowed to Adam. In the Baha'i version, the "Baha'i" were not asked by God to bow to Adam so therefore did not bow to Adam but always stared up at God and believed only in God, and were thus obedient.
PeacefulChaos
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8/7/2014 5:04:58 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/7/2014 4:59:36 PM, LogicalLunatic wrote:

So basically it's Religious Pluralism combined with Egalitarianism and a desire for a OWG.

That would be an oversimplification, and so I don't think I can say that's even what it basically is.

But it's a similar idea, at least.
Badi-Nontheist
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8/7/2014 5:07:49 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/7/2014 4:59:36 PM, LogicalLunatic wrote:

So basically it's Religious Pluralism combined with Egalitarianism and a desire for a OWG.

This is sort of correct. Study of the writings and claims of Baha'u'llah make it clear that he claimed to have usher the Last Days and the Last Resurrection/Judgment of mankind. Hence religious pluralism and oneness of mankind are direct results of this claim. Since the generality of mankind rejected the proclamation of Baha'u'llah, the generality of mankind had failed on the Day of Judgment and had entered into Hell. But due the Mercy and Grace of God, Baha'u'llah proclaimed that all religions are one and all mankind is one, and that Hell is not a real place but a state of mind. So in reality, Baha'u'llah proclaimed to have been victorious not defeated.
LogicalLunatic
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8/7/2014 5:22:33 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/7/2014 5:07:49 PM, Badi-Nontheist wrote:
At 8/7/2014 4:59:36 PM, LogicalLunatic wrote:

So basically it's Religious Pluralism combined with Egalitarianism and a desire for a OWG.

This is sort of correct. Study of the writings and claims of Baha'u'llah make it clear that he claimed to have usher the Last Days and the Last Resurrection/Judgment of mankind. Hence religious pluralism and oneness of mankind are direct results of this claim. Since the generality of mankind rejected the proclamation of Baha'u'llah, the generality of mankind had failed on the Day of Judgment and had entered into Hell. But due the Mercy and Grace of God, Baha'u'llah proclaimed that all religions are one and all mankind is one, and that Hell is not a real place but a state of mind. So in reality, Baha'u'llah proclaimed to have been victorious not defeated.

So...god was going to send everyone to Hell for not believing in the right religion but then Baha'u'llah proclaimed that all religions are equal and it became so?
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PeacefulChaos
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8/7/2014 5:25:22 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/7/2014 5:22:33 PM, LogicalLunatic wrote:
At 8/7/2014 5:07:49 PM, Badi-Nontheist wrote:
At 8/7/2014 4:59:36 PM, LogicalLunatic wrote:

So basically it's Religious Pluralism combined with Egalitarianism and a desire for a OWG.

This is sort of correct. Study of the writings and claims of Baha'u'llah make it clear that he claimed to have usher the Last Days and the Last Resurrection/Judgment of mankind. Hence religious pluralism and oneness of mankind are direct results of this claim. Since the generality of mankind rejected the proclamation of Baha'u'llah, the generality of mankind had failed on the Day of Judgment and had entered into Hell. But due the Mercy and Grace of God, Baha'u'llah proclaimed that all religions are one and all mankind is one, and that Hell is not a real place but a state of mind. So in reality, Baha'u'llah proclaimed to have been victorious not defeated.

So...god was going to send everyone to Hell for not believing in the right religion but then Baha'u'llah proclaimed that all religions are equal and it became so?

I'm not sure where he's getting this day of judgement and all people going to hell ... I haven't heard of this in Baha'i teachings.
LogicalLunatic
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8/7/2014 5:26:37 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/7/2014 5:25:22 PM, PeacefulChaos wrote:
At 8/7/2014 5:22:33 PM, LogicalLunatic wrote:
At 8/7/2014 5:07:49 PM, Badi-Nontheist wrote:
At 8/7/2014 4:59:36 PM, LogicalLunatic wrote:

So basically it's Religious Pluralism combined with Egalitarianism and a desire for a OWG.

This is sort of correct. Study of the writings and claims of Baha'u'llah make it clear that he claimed to have usher the Last Days and the Last Resurrection/Judgment of mankind. Hence religious pluralism and oneness of mankind are direct results of this claim. Since the generality of mankind rejected the proclamation of Baha'u'llah, the generality of mankind had failed on the Day of Judgment and had entered into Hell. But due the Mercy and Grace of God, Baha'u'llah proclaimed that all religions are one and all mankind is one, and that Hell is not a real place but a state of mind. So in reality, Baha'u'llah proclaimed to have been victorious not defeated.

So...god was going to send everyone to Hell for not believing in the right religion but then Baha'u'llah proclaimed that all religions are equal and it became so?

I'm not sure where he's getting this day of judgement and all people going to hell ... I haven't heard of this in Baha'i teachings.

That's what the dude said.
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Badi-Nontheist
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8/7/2014 5:28:33 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/7/2014 5:22:33 PM, LogicalLunatic wrote:
So...god was going to send everyone to Hell for not believing in the right religion but then Baha'u'llah proclaimed that all religions are equal and it became so?

No, Baha'u'llah (God) himself declared oneness of mankind and abolished holy war. He claimed that the Holy Books's references to God were really reference to the appearance of the person of Baha'u'llah. There is no separation between the idea of "God" and the person of the Manifestation (Appearance).
PeacefulChaos
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8/7/2014 5:28:58 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/7/2014 5:26:37 PM, LogicalLunatic wrote:

That's what the dude said.

It's from my understanding of the Baha'i teachings that hell is not even an actual place. It is only meant to metaphorically refer to spiritual underdevelopment and separation from God's love, which are states that are quite undesirable. The reason it was presented as hell was to exemplify how horrible such a state is, so that the people of that time could understand the concept.

I do not, however, recall teachings that state people were going to go to hell for not believing in Baha'u'llah, then Baha'u'llah changed everything by proclaiming it to be so.
Badi-Nontheist
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8/7/2014 5:30:10 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/7/2014 5:25:22 PM, PeacefulChaos wrote:

I'm not sure where he's getting this day of judgement and all people going to hell ... I haven't heard of this in Baha'i teachings.

From the Arabic, Persian, and English writings of Baha'u'llah. You apparently are only going by Baha'i marketing materials if you haven't read Bahaullah's own writings.
PeacefulChaos
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8/7/2014 5:30:23 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/7/2014 5:28:33 PM, Badi-Nontheist wrote:
At 8/7/2014 5:22:33 PM, LogicalLunatic wrote:
So...god was going to send everyone to Hell for not believing in the right religion but then Baha'u'llah proclaimed that all religions are equal and it became so?

No, Baha'u'llah (God) himself declared oneness of mankind and abolished holy war. He claimed that the Holy Books's references to God were really reference to the appearance of the person of Baha'u'llah. There is no separation between the idea of "God" and the person of the Manifestation (Appearance).

Where does it say Baha'u'llah is God? I believe you are mistaken.

The closest reference toward Baha'u'llah being God is that humans are like a mirror, while God is compared to the light of the sun. We can merely reflect his shining light, and the manifestations of God are the clearest mirrors of all.
PeacefulChaos
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8/7/2014 5:31:42 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/7/2014 5:30:10 PM, Badi-Nontheist wrote:
At 8/7/2014 5:25:22 PM, PeacefulChaos wrote:

I'm not sure where he's getting this day of judgement and all people going to hell ... I haven't heard of this in Baha'i teachings.

From the Arabic, Persian, and English writings of Baha'u'llah. You apparently are only going by Baha'i marketing materials if you haven't read Bahaullah's own writings.

Gleanings from the writings of Baha'u'llah, letters, Some Answered Questions, Paris Talks, Hidden Words.

Is this what you mean by marketing materials? These are from Baha'u'llah and Abdu'l-Baha.
Badi-Nontheist
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8/7/2014 5:39:40 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Like most Baha'is I encounter online, this person has the same types of questions I get all the time.

1. "Where does Baha'u'llah say that non-Baha'is were to be sent to hell?" Read the first paragraph of the Kitab-i-Aqdas, for instance. But I already stated (or do you choose to ignore what I wrote) that Baha'u'llah (God) himself chose Mercy and Grace over Judgment and established the oneness of mankind.

2. "Where does Baha'u'llah say that he is God?" Like I said in my OP, I am an atheist non-converted Bahai of six generations. I also stated in my OP that the Baha'i system has a "religious" shell known as "The Baha'i Faith", but in essence and in reality it is a system of mystical gnosticism. This is known as "Irfan" in Arabic, and is described in the first two paragraphs of the Kitab-i-Iqan as well as in the first paragraph of the Kitab-i-Aqdas. "Irfan" (mystical gnosticism) is translated as "knowledge" or "understanding" in English, but these words do not convey the depth of the word "Irfan". The realization that Baha'u'llah is not a mirror reflect the light of the sun, but is in reality the rising of the Sun itself, is a climax of mystical gnosis of the Baha'i system.
Badi-Nontheist
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8/7/2014 5:44:58 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Some Answered Questions is poorly translated and is sort of marketing material because Abdu'l-Baha's focus on answering non-Baha'i questions.

Paris Talks are not Baha'i scripture and it is poorly translated, and the originals of the talks are not found.

Gleanings are full of claims of Baha'u'llah claiming to be god.

Hidden Words are the words of Baha'u'llah but read them again, it is God speaking to man. Hence, the Hidden Words themselves are a great claim of Baha'u'llah that he is god.
PeacefulChaos
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8/7/2014 5:45:19 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/7/2014 5:39:40 PM, Badi-Nontheist wrote:

1. "Where does Baha'u'llah say that non-Baha'is were to be sent to hell?" Read the first paragraph of the Kitab-i-Aqdas, for instance.

I have. Shall I quote the part I believe you're referring to?

"Whoso achieveth this duty hath attained unto all good; and whoso is deprived thereof hath gone astray, though he be the author of every righteous deed."

Where does it state that non-believers are going to hell? It doesn't.

But I already stated (or do you choose to ignore what I wrote) that Baha'u'llah (God) himself chose Mercy and Grace over Judgment and established the oneness of mankind.

I asked for Baha'u'llah's words himself, not what you have already stated. I am aware of what you state, but I'd like proof from what Baha'u'llah himself stated.

The realization that Baha'u'llah is not a mirror reflect the light of the sun, but is in reality the rising of the Sun itself, is a climax of mystical gnosis of the Baha'i system.

This is a contradiction to what I have read in the Baha'i writings.
PeacefulChaos
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8/7/2014 5:48:12 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/7/2014 5:44:58 PM, Badi-Nontheist wrote:
Some Answered Questions is poorly translated and is sort of marketing material because Abdu'l-Baha's focus on answering non-Baha'i questions.

Interesting, but Abdu'l-Baha clearly answers such questions from Baha'i perspectives and teachings.


Paris Talks are not Baha'i scripture and it is poorly translated, and the originals of the talks are not found.

While Paris Talks was not written by Abdu'l-Baha himself, they are transcriptions of his talks.


Gleanings are full of claims of Baha'u'llah claiming to be god.

I have not come across such quotes. I believe we interpret things differently.


Hidden Words are the words of Baha'u'llah but read them again, it is God speaking to man. Hence, the Hidden Words themselves are a great claim of Baha'u'llah that he is god.

As said above, I believe we interpret the writings differently.
Badi-Nontheist
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8/7/2014 5:56:35 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
The idea that Baha'u'llah claims to be god was suppressed by the Bahais for many years because of persecutions and suppression and anti-bahai activities. But recently conditions are opening up and even Baha'i authors like Mojan Momen have written about it. As did others before him like EG Browne, Denis McEoin, Stephen Lambden and other academics.

I will post quotes of God claims of Baha'u'llah from Gleanings and Hidden Words in next post.
PeacefulChaos
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8/7/2014 6:00:45 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/7/2014 5:56:35 PM, Badi-Nontheist wrote:
The idea that Baha'u'llah claims to be god was suppressed by the Bahais for many years because of persecutions and suppression and anti-bahai activities. But recently conditions are opening up and even Baha'i authors like Mojan Momen have written about it. As did others before him like EG Browne, Denis McEoin, Stephen Lambden and other academics.

I will post quotes of God claims of Baha'u'llah from Gleanings and Hidden Words in next post.

Interesting. I look forward to seeing what you have posted, as I will be getting off for now. Before I go, however, I'd like to ask a question.

If you believe that God does not exist but that Baha'u'llah has claimed to be God, does that mean you believe that:

1. Baha'u'llah didn't exist

or

2. Baha'u'llah was wrong/intentionally deceiving people

?

I am aware that Baha'u'llah made Abdu'l-Baha the official interpreter of his religion, then Shoghi Effendi, and now the Universal House of Justice. I am most certain that among this chain of interpreters of the faith that none of them agree with what you believe Baha'u'llah to have claimed.
Badi-Nontheist
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8/7/2014 6:02:12 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Quick answer: Baha'u'llah was right. Why? Because God is a manmade construct. Baha'u'llah existed, we even have his photos.
PeacefulChaos
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8/7/2014 6:03:30 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/7/2014 6:02:12 PM, Badi-Nontheist wrote:
Quick answer: Baha'u'llah was right. Why? Because God is a manmade construct. Baha'u'llah existed, we even have his photos.

Thank you for responding. While I don't fully understand what you mean yet, I'm glad we can have a civil conversation despite our differences in our beliefs. It's hard to do that on this website.

Once again, thanks.
Badi-Nontheist
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8/7/2014 6:14:31 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Here is one place, from the Gleanings, where Baha'u'llah claims to have overturned sending all mankind to hell for rejecting him and instead established the oneness of mankind:

"The most grievous veil hath shut out the peoples of the earth from His glory, and hindered them from hearkening to His call. God grant that the light of unity may envelop the whole earth, and that the seal, "the Kingdom is God"s", may be stamped upon the brow of all its peoples."

Here is a God claim of Baha'u'llah:

"No man that meditateth upon this verse can fail to recognize the greatness of this Cause, or doubt the exalted character of this Day"the Day of God Himself. This same verse is followed by these words: "And the Lord alone shall be exalted in that Day." This is the Day which the Pen of the Most High hath glorified in all the holy Scriptures. There is no verse in them that doth not declare the glory of His holy Name, and no Book that doth not testify unto the loftiness of this most exalted theme. Were We to make mention of all that hath been revealed in these heavenly Books and holy Scriptures concerning this Revelation, this Tablet would assume impossible dimensions. It is incumbent in this Day, upon every man to place his whole trust in the manifold bounties of God, and arise to disseminate, with the utmost wisdom, the verities of His Cause. Then, and only then, will the whole earth be enveloped with the morning light of His Revelation."

Another God claim of Baha'u'llah:

"Call out to Zion, O Carmel, and announce the joyful tidings: He that was hidden from mortal eyes is come! His all-conquering sovereignty is manifest; His all-encompassing splendor is revealed. Beware lest thou hesitate or halt. Hasten forth and circumambulate the City of God that hath descended from heaven, the celestial Kaaba round which have circled in adoration the favored of God, the pure in heart, and the company of the most exalted angels. Oh, how I long to announce unto every spot on the surface of the earth, and to carry to each one of its cities, the glad-tidings of this Revelation"a Revelation to which the heart of Sinai hath been attracted, and in whose name the Burning Bush is calling: "Unto God, the Lord of Lords, belong the kingdoms of earth and heaven." Verily this is the Day in which both land and sea rejoice at this announcement, the Day for which have been laid up those things which God, through a bounty beyond the ken of mortal mind or heart, hath destined for revelation. Ere long will God sail His Ark upon thee, and will manifest the people of Bah" who have been mentioned in the Book of Names."
Badi-Nontheist
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8/7/2014 6:17:34 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Another God claim of Baha'u'llah:

"Say: O men! This is a matchless Day. Matchless must, likewise, be the tongue that celebrateth the praise of the Desire of all nations, and matchless the deed that aspireth to be acceptable in His sight. The whole human race hath longed for this Day, that perchance it may fulfil that which well beseemeth its station, and is worthy of its destiny. Blessed is the man whom the affairs of the world have failed to deter from recognizing Him Who is the Lord of all things."

Another God claim of Baha'u'llah:

"The All-Merciful is come invested with undoubted sovereignty. The Balance hath been appointed, and all them that dwell on earth have been gathered together. The Trumpet hath been blown, and lo, all eyes have stared up with terror, and the hearts of all who are in the heavens and on the earth have trembled, except them whom the breath of the verses of God hath quickened, and who have detached themselves from all things.... The earth hath been shaken, and the mountains have passed away, and the angels have appeared, rank on rank, before Us. "
Badi-Nontheist
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8/7/2014 6:20:45 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
A most stunning claim of Baha'u'llah that He is God:

"Say: Is there any doubt concerning God? Behold how He hath come down from the heaven of His grace, girded with power and invested with sovereignty. Is there any doubt concerning His signs? Open ye your eyes, and consider His clear evidence. Paradise is on your right hand, and hath been brought nigh unto you, while Hell hath been made to blaze. Witness its devouring flame. Haste ye to enter into 46 Paradise, as a token of Our mercy unto you, and drink ye from the hands of the All-Merciful the Wine that is life indeed.
Drink with healthy relish, O people of Bah". Ye are indeed they with whom it shall be well. This is what they who have near access to God have attained. This is the flowing water ye were promised in the Qur""n, and later in the Bay"n, as a recompense from your Lord, the God of Mercy. Blessed are they that quaff it."
Badi-Nontheist
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8/7/2014 6:25:36 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
And of course the "Tablets of the Hair" is the clear claim of Bahaullah to be God:

"My hair is My Phoenix. Therefore hath it set itself upon the blazing fire of My Face and receiveth sustenance from the garden of My Countenance... My hair is My Veil whereby I conceal My beauty, that haply the eyes of the non-believers among My servants may not fall upon it. Thus do We conceal from the sight of the ungodly the glorious and sublime beauty of Our Countenance... My hair beareth witness for My beauty that verily ***I am God*** and that there is none other God but ***me***. In My ancient eternity ***I have ever been God***, the One, the Peerless, the Everlasting, the Ever-living, the Ever-Abiding, the Self-Subsistent."
PeacefulChaos
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8/7/2014 7:41:35 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/7/2014 6:14:31 PM, Badi-Nontheist wrote:
Here is one place, from the Gleanings, where Baha'u'llah claims to have overturned sending all mankind to hell for rejecting him and instead established the oneness of mankind:

"The most grievous veil hath shut out the peoples of the earth from His glory, and hindered them from hearkening to His call. God grant that the light of unity may envelop the whole earth, and that the seal, "the Kingdom is God"s", may be stamped upon the brow of all its peoples."

How is this Baha'u'llah claiming to have overturned sending all mankind to hell for rejecting him? It is simply saying that a veil hath shut the people of the earth from God's glory, and that God should grant the light of unity to envelop the whole earth.

There is no mention of hell or Baha'u'llah overturning such matters.

Here is a God claim of Baha'u'llah:

"No man that meditateth upon this verse can fail to recognize the greatness of this Cause, or doubt the exalted character of this Day"the Day of God Himself. This same verse is followed by these words: "And the Lord alone shall be exalted in that Day." This is the Day which the Pen of the Most High hath glorified in all the holy Scriptures. There is no verse in them that doth not declare the glory of His holy Name, and no Book that doth not testify unto the loftiness of this most exalted theme. Were We to make mention of all that hath been revealed in these heavenly Books and holy Scriptures concerning this Revelation, this Tablet would assume impossible dimensions. It is incumbent in this Day, upon every man to place his whole trust in the manifold bounties of God, and arise to disseminate, with the utmost wisdom, the verities of His Cause. Then, and only then, will the whole earth be enveloped with the morning light of His Revelation."

Baha'u'llah does not claim to be God. Instead, he refers to God in the third person. He is talking of an entirely different matter, of how every verse of the Pen of the Most High declareth the glory of God.

All the passages you offer are in similar cases - Baha'u'llah does not claim to be God, and it is instead referring to God or talking of a different matter.
Badi-Nontheist
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8/7/2014 7:51:39 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Bahaullah switches from third person and second person and first person back and forth all the time. See the SuriyiHaykal. Bahaullah clarifies that all persons first second and third are all reference to himself. There is even a tablet not translated into English where Bahaullah says this. It is mentioned in the first or second paragraph of Adin Taherzadeh's "Revelation of Bahaullah" in the chapter "SuriyiHaykal". Also not the name of the tablet SuriyiHaykal. It means "Tablet of the Body". This is a reference to the body of God.

Moojan Momen also mentions this in a new research paper "God of Bahaullah". There is no separation between the God of Bahaullah and Baha'u'llah's own self.

You also ignore the Tablets of the Hair and the Hidden Word where Bahaullah speaks of God directly in the first person.