Total Posts:13|Showing Posts:1-13
Jump to topic:

Theism vs. atheism = irreconcilable

Benshapiro
Posts: 3,966
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/8/2014 6:23:23 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
No matter how many debates, topics, or exchanges, we can only know with certainty that:

Not one can prove or disprove the existence of God.

The fundamental difference between atheists and theists is that:

Atheists see a self-contained universe that doesn't logically necessitate or infer God.

Theists see a self-contained universe that both logically necessitates and infers a creator.

The basis for these beliefs are rooted on opposite spectrums of belief. The atheist looks within the system to satisfactorily explain all phenomena that exists and draws conclusions only from these observations. The theist looks inside, as well as outside of the system (using logic) to see what satisfactorily explains all phenomena that exists. The atheist points out that looking outside of the system has no objective evidence, but the theist uses logic as evidence. The atheist is not satisfied with the logical arguments but the theist is. Based on their mindset and perspective, they are both right.

The differences are rooted in fundamentally opposite philosophical ways in which to view the universe. The differences are irreconcilable.
Hematite12
Posts: 400
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/8/2014 9:44:47 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/8/2014 6:23:23 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
No matter how many debates, topics, or exchanges, we can only know with certainty that:

Not one can prove or disprove the existence of God.



The fundamental difference between atheists and theists is that:

Atheists see a self-contained universe that doesn't logically necessitate or infer God.

Theists see a self-contained universe that both logically necessitates and infers a creator.

The basis for these beliefs are rooted on opposite spectrums of belief. The atheist looks within the system to satisfactorily explain all phenomena that exists and draws conclusions only from these observations. The theist looks inside, as well as outside of the system (using logic) to see what satisfactorily explains all phenomena that exists. The atheist points out that looking outside of the system has no objective evidence, but the theist uses logic as evidence. The atheist is not satisfied with the logical arguments but the theist is. Based on their mindset and perspective, they are both right.

The differences are rooted in fundamentally opposite philosophical ways in which to view the universe. The differences are irreconcilable.

This seems true (which is why I call myself an agnostic), but do you think things like the problem of evil aren't sufficient proofs against God? Of course, your response might be that it's inductive, so it isn't technically a "proof".
celestialtorahteacher
Posts: 1,369
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/8/2014 9:48:01 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
I was an atheist until the age of 35 when I unexpectedly went through a profound three day religious conversion experience. I've been a believer in God ever since. It was the fact that all my science-explains-all mindset could not begin to explain what happened to me for three days of experiencing non-stop continuous synchronicity events, one right after the other and all of them pertaining to religious themes I had never before considered.

My science mind is still there but it's convinced that spiritual phenomena and spiritual reality are true because I've seen proof of it in my life, things I received in spiritual consciousness that later were proven out in the real world. E.g. in 1979 one of the things God told me is that dinosaurs never became extinct, they are still with us flying around as the birds. This was God knowledge I could not find in the real world until the 1990's when the bird theory was proven by too many examples to ignore the connection to the big boys's anatomy.

If spiritual vision can lead science and it does, that means at some point science will recognize spiritual vision and there goes the atheist position completely. It's already on thin ice with the God Gene discovery and the funny stuff that happens at the quantum level of the material world.
Hematite12
Posts: 400
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/8/2014 10:24:56 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/8/2014 9:48:01 PM, celestialtorahteacher wrote:
I was an atheist until the age of 35 when I unexpectedly went through a profound three day religious conversion experience. I've been a believer in God ever since. It was the fact that all my science-explains-all mindset could not begin to explain what happened to me for three days of experiencing non-stop continuous synchronicity events, one right after the other and all of them pertaining to religious themes I had never before considered.

My science mind is still there but it's convinced that spiritual phenomena and spiritual reality are true because I've seen proof of it in my life, things I received in spiritual consciousness that later were proven out in the real world. E.g. in 1979 one of the things God told me is that dinosaurs never became extinct, they are still with us flying around as the birds. This was God knowledge I could not find in the real world until the 1990's when the bird theory was proven by too many examples to ignore the connection to the big boys's anatomy.


Can I recommend some psycho-therapists?

If spiritual vision can lead science and it does, that means at some point science will recognize spiritual vision and there goes the atheist position completely. It's already on thin ice with the God Gene discovery and the funny stuff that happens at the quantum level of the material world.
irreverent_god
Posts: 1,378
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/8/2014 10:51:44 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/8/2014 6:23:23 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
No matter how many debates, topics, or exchanges, we can only know with certainty that:

Not one can prove or disprove the existence of God.



The fundamental difference between atheists and theists is that:

Atheists see a self-contained universe that doesn't logically necessitate or infer God.

Theists see a self-contained universe that both logically necessitates and infers a creator.

The basis for these beliefs are rooted on opposite spectrums of belief. The atheist looks within the system to satisfactorily explain all phenomena that exists and draws conclusions only from these observations. The theist looks inside, as well as outside of the system (using logic) to see what satisfactorily explains all phenomena that exists. The atheist points out that looking outside of the system has no objective evidence, but the theist uses logic as evidence. The atheist is not satisfied with the logical arguments but the theist is. Based on their mindset and perspective, they are both right.

The differences are rooted in fundamentally opposite philosophical ways in which to view the universe. The differences are irreconcilable.

Well thought-out and, fundamentally, true. However, as an agnostic, I have no problem with finding a gawd. The problem I have is with the ones that have been invented, and the religions built around them, that have infected this planet with such ignorant superstition.
Logic and Reason are the precursor to Justice.
Faith and zealotry are the precursor to Folly.
irreverent_god
Posts: 1,378
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/8/2014 10:59:12 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/8/2014 9:48:01 PM, celestialtorahteacher wrote:
I was an atheist until the age of 35 when I unexpectedly went through a profound three day religious conversion experience. I've been a believer in God ever since. It was the fact that all my science-explains-all mindset could not begin to explain what happened to me for three days of experiencing non-stop continuous synchronicity events, one right after the other and all of them pertaining to religious themes I had never before considered.

LSD, magic mushrooms, or peyote?

My science mind is still there but it's convinced that spiritual phenomena and spiritual reality are true because I've seen proof of it in my life, things I received in spiritual consciousness that later were proven out in the real world. E.g. in 1979 one of the things God told me is that dinosaurs never became extinct, they are still with us flying around as the birds. This was God knowledge I could not find in the real world until the 1990's when the bird theory was proven by too many examples to ignore the connection to the big boys's anatomy.

Yes, some trips are unrecoverable...

If spiritual vision can lead science and it does, that means at some point science will recognize spiritual vision and there goes the atheist position completely. It's already on thin ice with the God Gene discovery and the funny stuff that happens at the quantum level of the material world.

And I'm sure you have a complete understanding of "funny stuff," right? I wonder what happens if someone drops acid, and then stands inside the Hadron Collider, while tripping...?
Logic and Reason are the precursor to Justice.
Faith and zealotry are the precursor to Folly.
dee-em
Posts: 6,481
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/9/2014 7:23:11 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/8/2014 9:48:01 PM, celestialtorahteacher wrote:

E.g. in 1979 one of the things God told me is that dinosaurs never became extinct, they are still with us flying around as the birds. This was God knowledge I could not find in the real world until the 1990's when the bird theory was proven by too many examples to ignore the connection to the big boys's anatomy.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org...

"A close relationship between birds and dinosaurs was first proposed in the nineteenth century after the discovery of the primitive bird Archaeopteryx in Germany."
dee-em
Posts: 6,481
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/9/2014 8:00:15 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/8/2014 6:23:23 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
No matter how many debates, topics, or exchanges, we can only know with certainty that:

Not one can prove or disprove the existence of God.

The fundamental difference between atheists and theists is that:

Atheists see a self-contained universe that doesn't logically necessitate or infer God.

Theists see a self-contained universe that both logically necessitates and infers a creator.

The basis for these beliefs are rooted on opposite spectrums of belief. The atheist looks within the system to satisfactorily explain all phenomena that exists and draws conclusions only from these observations. The theist looks inside, as well as outside of the system (using logic) to see what satisfactorily explains all phenomena that exists. The atheist points out that looking outside of the system has no objective evidence, but the theist uses logic as evidence. The atheist is not satisfied with the logical arguments but the theist is. Based on their mindset and perspective, they are both right.

The differences are rooted in fundamentally opposite philosophical ways in which to view the universe. The differences are irreconcilable.

Atheists and theists can't both be right, obviously. They both think they are right.

There is a lot of truth to the above except for this:

Theists are usually indoctrinated into their beliefs at an early age. This is self-evident since religion correlates closely to geography. Belief comes first, then the search for evidence. (Yes, I know, you are going to claim you are an exception). Many (most) just leave it at faith alone and don't ever bother with the evidence you describe.

Also this:
"The atheist is not satisfied with the logical arguments but the theist is".

It would be more correct to say that atheists don't find the logical arguments presented to them to be convincing. They can, without exception, be shown to have fatal flaws or rely on unsound premises. We reject tainted evidence when analyzing within the universe, and there is no reason to be any less stringent with logical argumentation.
celestialtorahteacher
Posts: 1,369
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/9/2014 8:32:17 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/9/2014 8:02:35 AM, Badi-Nontheist wrote:
Theists and Atheists are both right through gnostic experience.

You're wasting your time here. These people do not understand direct spiritual contact with God, i.e. the experience of Gnosis. They are afraid of spirituality so they have to act like nine-year old boys will act, act tough and mock and ridicule and gang together against the Outsider because they're afraid individually to face something Unknown to them, spiritual experience.

All of Western Civilization owes its roots to people exactly like me who had religious visions that were incorporated into religious communities that influenced governments and whole societies throughout the reign of Christianity since the Roman Empire took it in its Pauline form, not its Gnostic form which explains why most of you atheists think you can mock Gnosis with slander. Pay attention to where your culture comes from and your value systems. It didn't arise from any Atheist World Fellowship did it..
Double_R
Posts: 4,886
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/9/2014 9:45:59 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/8/2014 6:23:23 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
No matter how many debates, topics, or exchanges, we can only know with certainty that:

Not one can prove or disprove the existence of God.



The fundamental difference between atheists and theists is that:

Atheists see a self-contained universe that doesn't logically necessitate or infer God.

Theists see a self-contained universe that both logically necessitates and infers a creator.

The basis for these beliefs are rooted on opposite spectrums of belief. The atheist looks within the system to satisfactorily explain all phenomena that exists and draws conclusions only from these observations. The theist looks inside, as well as outside of the system (using logic) to see what satisfactorily explains all phenomena that exists. The atheist points out that looking outside of the system has no objective evidence, but the theist uses logic as evidence. The atheist is not satisfied with the logical arguments but the theist is. Based on their mindset and perspective, they are both right.

That was actually well put.

The last sentence about them both being right is where it gets interesting to me. Sure, they are both right based on their perspectives, so the question that should be asked is; Which perspective is superior? And as you pointed out, both sides recognize that the only evidence that can be used to determine what is outside of the system is logic. However this automatically destroys your position because it demonstrates a profound ignorance of what logic is.

Reaching a justified conclusion requires a sound argument. An argument that is sound requires two things: that the premises are true, and that the premises lead to the conclusion. Logic is the tool we use to connect the premises to the conclusion. If logic is all we have then we have no premises, and without premises we have no connection to reality. Yet you are using it to claim knowledge about reality, that is self defeating.
Arasa
Posts: 380
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/9/2014 9:50:47 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/8/2014 6:23:23 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
No matter how many debates, topics, or exchanges, we can only know with certainty that:

Not one can prove or disprove the existence of God.



The fundamental difference between atheists and theists is that:

Atheists see a self-contained universe that doesn't logically necessitate or infer God.

Theists see a self-contained universe that both logically necessitates and infers a creator.

The basis for these beliefs are rooted on opposite spectrums of belief. The atheist looks within the system to satisfactorily explain all phenomena that exists and draws conclusions only from these observations. The theist looks inside, as well as outside of the system (using logic) to see what satisfactorily explains all phenomena that exists. The atheist points out that looking outside of the system has no objective evidence, but the theist uses logic as evidence. The atheist is not satisfied with the logical arguments but the theist is. Based on their mindset and perspective, they are both right.

The differences are rooted in fundamentally opposite philosophical ways in which to view the universe. The differences are irreconcilable.

Ben, these are excellent points to make! I certainly know that I will not convert anyone to Christianity here on this platform. However, what I can do is contest the arguments that non-Christians raise in opposition to Christianity. For me, it's a matter of trying to keep everyone honest.

August Rasa, a 4:53 mind