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The Claim, Yet When Put Into Practice.....

Fatihah
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8/9/2014 1:19:11 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
My logic and reasoning for concluding anything as truth is from observing and testing the very claim I hold as truth. In other words, putting it into practice. If when put into practice, the hypothesis matches the predicted conclusion, then the claim holds as a valid point. If not, then the claim is not valid. This line of reasoning is the same applied by scientists and is why I accept things as the truth, including historical events, my own religion of Islam, or any other claim I consider as fact.

Bearing this in mind, I say and ask the following. An atheist will say that religion was believed and spread after someone came along and made up stories of revelation. Yet if someone comes to them saying they received revelation, they would not believe. In other words, you claim a logical reason as to why religion is believed, yet when put into practice and someone presents a religion for you to believe, you actually disbelieve it. You have just shown that the reason you claim to be logical, is actually illogical when you put it into practice.

How do you justify this act?
Wylted
Posts: 21,167
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8/9/2014 1:26:06 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
Paragraph 2 is a straw man argument and is a logical fallacy. Paragraph 1 seems to be you saying you believe results you find from confirmation bias.

Say you test your faith by praying to god you get something then you get what you interpret to be that thing. That's confirmation bias.

If you study up on some logic 101, you'll see your mistakes a lot easier.
Fatihah
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8/9/2014 1:33:03 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
And for the religious person who is not a Muslim, how do you justify the claim that Muhammad (saw) used the Qur'an (a teaching that went against the likes of the people) to inspire people to follow him to conquer land, when if put into practice, you couldn't convince a person to follow you in conquering just the street you live on with your own scripture you believe is true?
Fatihah
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8/9/2014 1:35:54 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/9/2014 1:26:06 AM, Wylted wrote:
Paragraph 2 is a straw man argument and is a logical fallacy. Paragraph 1 seems to be you saying you believe results you find from confirmation bias.

Say you test your faith by praying to god you get something then you get what you interpret to be that thing. That's confirmation bias.

If you study up on some logic 101, you'll see your mistakes a lot easier.

Response: If testing your hypothesis is a logical fallacy for truth, then that means that all science is false, making your claim a logical fallacy. So if you follow your own advice on logic, you'll see your mistake much easier.
Fatihah
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8/9/2014 1:55:56 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
For clarity, I had to edit my OP a little as follows:

My logic and reasoning for concluding anything as truth is from observing and testing the very claim I hold as truth, and deducing a logical answer based on observation and testing. In other words, putting it into practice. If when put into practice, the hypothesis logically matches the predicted conclusion, then the claim holds as a valid point. If not, then the claim is not valid. This line of reasoning is the same applied by scientists and is why I accept things as the truth, including historical events, my own religion of Islam, or any other claim I consider as fact.

Bearing this in mind, I say and ask the following. An atheist will say that religion was believed and spread after someone came along and made up stories of revelation. Yet if someone comes to them saying they received revelation, they would not believe. In other words, you claim a logical reason as to why religion is believed, yet when put into practice and someone presents a religion for you to believe, you actually disbelieve it. You have just shown that the reason you claim to be logical, is actually illogical when you put it into practice.

How do you justify this act?
bulproof
Posts: 25,309
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8/9/2014 2:01:39 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/9/2014 1:33:03 AM, Fatihah wrote:
And for the religious person who is not a Muslim, how do you justify the claim that Muhammad (saw) used the Qur'an (a teaching that went against the likes of the people) to inspire people to follow him to conquer land, when if put into practice, you couldn't convince a person to follow you in conquering just the street you live on with your own scripture you believe is true?

Been there done that got the T-shirt.
Come up with something new.
Kerfluffer
Posts: 123
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8/9/2014 5:54:30 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
My logic and reasoning
Your what? Your arguments are blatantly illogical. You're the only person who thinks they're logical. All the other theists disagree with you, including Muslims.

And for the religious person who is not a Muslim, how do you justify the claim that Muhammad (saw) used the Qur'an (a teaching that went against the likes of the people) to inspire people to follow him to conquer land, when if put into practice, you couldn't convince a person to follow you in conquering just the street you live on with your own scripture you believe is true?

Because Mohammad promised virgins in Heaven and used his "revelation" for personal earthly glory and reward. The apostles of Christ and some of the first Christians did not work for earthly gain, they were in fact persecuted and lost their lives in proclaiming the gospel. Those who knew Jesus directly would never have done so if they hadn't personally witnessed His resurrection.
dee-em
Posts: 6,497
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8/9/2014 7:07:32 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/9/2014 1:19:11 AM, Fatihah wrote:
An atheist will say that religion was believed and spread after someone came along and made up stories of revelation.

Believed by some, not all. Otherwise we would only have one religion and no atheists.

Yet if someone comes to them saying they received revelation, they would not believe.

Because they are a member of that group which did not believe in your first statement.

There is nothing inconsistent here. Logic fail.
Fatihah
Posts: 7,770
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8/9/2014 9:34:12 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/9/2014 5:54:30 AM, Kerfluffer wrote:
My logic and reasoning
Your what? Your arguments are blatantly illogical. You're the only person who thinks they're logical. All the other theists disagree with you, including Muslims.

And for the religious person who is not a Muslim, how do you justify the claim that Muhammad (saw) used the Qur'an (a teaching that went against the likes of the people) to inspire people to follow him to conquer land, when if put into practice, you couldn't convince a person to follow you in conquering just the street you live on with your own scripture you believe is true?

Because Mohammad promised virgins in Heaven and used his "revelation" for personal earthly glory and reward. The apostles of Christ and some of the first Christians did not work for earthly gain, they were in fact persecuted and lost their lives in proclaiming the gospel. Those who knew Jesus directly would never have done so if they hadn't personally witnessed His resurrection.

Response: In other words, you have no justification for the atheists claims that the reason the reason they claim to be logical for why religion is believed, is actually illogical when put it into practice. Thus exposing the absurdity of atheists. Thanks.

As for the rest, your own Bible says that Jesus came not to spread peace, but the swords. So your whole claim falls as invalid.
Fatihah
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8/9/2014 9:36:26 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/9/2014 7:07:32 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 8/9/2014 1:19:11 AM, Fatihah wrote:
An atheist will say that religion was believed and spread after someone came along and made up stories of revelation.

Believed by some, not all. Otherwise we would only have one religion and no atheists.

Yet if someone comes to them saying they received revelation, they would not believe.

Because they are a member of that group which did not believe in your first statement.

There is nothing inconsistent here. Logic fail.

Response: If that is the case, then what reason is religion believed and how did the believers convince others to follow it?
Kerfluffer
Posts: 123
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8/9/2014 9:57:50 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/9/2014 9:34:12 AM, Fatihah wrote:
At 8/9/2014 5:54:30 AM, Kerfluffer wrote:
My logic and reasoning
Your what? Your arguments are blatantly illogical. You're the only person who thinks they're logical. All the other theists disagree with you, including Muslims.

And for the religious person who is not a Muslim, how do you justify the claim that Muhammad (saw) used the Qur'an (a teaching that went against the likes of the people) to inspire people to follow him to conquer land, when if put into practice, you couldn't convince a person to follow you in conquering just the street you live on with your own scripture you believe is true?

Because Mohammad promised virgins in Heaven and used his "revelation" for personal earthly glory and reward. The apostles of Christ and some of the first Christians did not work for earthly gain, they were in fact persecuted and lost their lives in proclaiming the gospel. Those who knew Jesus directly would never have done so if they hadn't personally witnessed His resurrection.

Response: In other words, you have no justification for the atheists claims that the reason the reason they claim to be logical for why religion is believed, is actually illogical when put it into practice. Thus exposing the absurdity of atheists. Thanks.

As for the rest, your own Bible says that Jesus came not to spread peace, but the swords. So your whole claim falls as invalid.

Arguing with you is a waste of time. You make zero sense and your "logical" conclusions don't follow from anything that you or anyone else has said.
Wylted
Posts: 21,167
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8/9/2014 10:05:15 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/9/2014 1:35:54 AM, Fatihah wrote:
At 8/9/2014 1:26:06 AM, Wylted wrote:
Paragraph 2 is a straw man argument and is a logical fallacy. Paragraph 1 seems to be you saying you believe results you find from confirmation bias.

Say you test your faith by praying to god you get something then you get what you interpret to be that thing. That's confirmation bias.

If you study up on some logic 101, you'll see your mistakes a lot easier.

Response: If testing your hypothesis is a logical fallacy for truth, then that means that all science is false, making your claim a logical fallacy. So if you follow your own advice on logic, you'll see your mistake much easier.

Stop being retarded. There is ways to test them without confirmation bias. This is why we have scientific peer reviewed studies. But keeping a journal of your prayers and seeing what comes true as well as other crap is open to confirmation bias and isn't a good way I discovering the truth.

There is a such thing as formal logic. Study it. I'm not insulting you, but giving you sound advice. Study logic and you'll be able to make some good arguments for your position. It's better to use logic as a means for arriving at the truth, but you can also use it to make some arguments that won't have intellectuals falling out of their chair laughing and mocking you (like they do with your current arguments).
Fatihah
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8/9/2014 10:08:47 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/9/2014 9:57:50 AM, Kerfluffer wrote:

Arguing with you is a waste of time. You make zero sense and your "logical" conclusions don't follow from anything that you or anyone else has said.

Response: From your position, I agree that arguing with me is a waste of time. As you continue to demonstrate that you cannot answer any question I propose to you or provide a logical rebuttal. You can't justify the atheists claims that the reason the reason they claim to be logical for why religion is believed, is actually illogical when put it into practice. Nor can you justify the claim that Muhammad actually conquered land by inspiring followers with the Qur'an, when if put into practice, you can't even conquer your own neighborhood with your own truth. So you make my point. Thanks.
Fatihah
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8/9/2014 10:10:49 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/9/2014 10:05:15 AM, Wylted wrote:

Stop being retarded. There is ways to test them without confirmation bias. This is why we have scientific peer reviewed studies. But keeping a journal of your prayers and seeing what comes true as well as other crap is open to confirmation bias and isn't a good way I discovering the truth.

There is a such thing as formal logic. Study it. I'm not insulting you, but giving you sound advice. Study logic and you'll be able to make some good arguments for your position. It's better to use logic as a means for arriving at the truth, but you can also use it to make some arguments that won't have intellectuals falling out of their chair laughing and mocking you (like they do with your current arguments).

Response: There are ways to test without confirmation bias, and not testing your hypothesis is clearly not one of them. Otherwise, all science would be false. So your claim still holds as ridiculous, thus refuting and debunking yourself.
Kerfluffer
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8/9/2014 10:14:00 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/9/2014 10:08:47 AM, Fatihah wrote:
At 8/9/2014 9:57:50 AM, Kerfluffer wrote:

Arguing with you is a waste of time. You make zero sense and your "logical" conclusions don't follow from anything that you or anyone else has said.

Response: From your position, I agree that arguing with me is a waste of time. As you continue to demonstrate that you cannot answer any question I propose to you or provide a logical rebuttal. You can't justify the atheists claims that the reason the reason they claim to be logical for why religion is believed, is actually illogical when put it into practice. Nor can you justify the claim that Muhammad actually conquered land by inspiring followers with the Qur'an, when if put into practice, you can't even conquer your own neighborhood with your own truth. So you make my point. Thanks.

I already answered your question. You're just too dumb to notice/accept it. Kthxbai
Fatihah
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8/9/2014 10:15:16 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/9/2014 10:14:00 AM, Kerfluffer wrote:

I already answered your question. You're just too dumb to notice/accept it. Kthxbai

Response: And I already refuted and exposed the idiocy in your answer. Debunked as usual.
Kerfluffer
Posts: 123
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8/9/2014 10:20:10 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/9/2014 10:15:16 AM, Fatihah wrote:
At 8/9/2014 10:14:00 AM, Kerfluffer wrote:

I already answered your question. You're just too dumb to notice/accept it. Kthxbai

Response: And I already refuted and exposed the idiocy in your answer. Debunked as usual.

No, you did not.
Wylted
Posts: 21,167
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8/9/2014 10:22:03 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/9/2014 10:10:49 AM, Fatihah wrote:
At 8/9/2014 10:05:15 AM, Wylted wrote:

Stop being retarded. There is ways to test them without confirmation bias. This is why we have scientific peer reviewed studies. But keeping a journal of your prayers and seeing what comes true as well as other crap is open to confirmation bias and isn't a good way I discovering the truth.

There is a such thing as formal logic. Study it. I'm not insulting you, but giving you sound advice. Study logic and you'll be able to make some good arguments for your position. It's better to use logic as a means for arriving at the truth, but you can also use it to make some arguments that won't have intellectuals falling out of their chair laughing and mocking you (like they do with your current arguments).

Response: There are ways to test without confirmation bias, and not testing your hypothesis is clearly not one of them. Otherwise, all science would be false. So your claim still holds as ridiculous, thus refuting and debunking yourself.

Okay humor me. How did you test the claims of your religion to prove it true?
Fatihah
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8/9/2014 10:27:21 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/9/2014 10:22:03 AM, Wylted wrote:

Okay humor me. How did you test the claims of your religion to prove it true?

Response: Easily.

Creation by Chance causes disorder

A pattern that repeats itself as well as organization can only originate from one making a decision. This is also easily proven. Again, we need a test subject. Let's use ourselves. If one wants to draw a human face in a picture, one would first have to decide on which stroke of the brush to use, decide where each feature of the face goes, it's size, dimensions, ,etc. Without doing so, it would not be possible to draw the face. A decision is made first and the drawing is based on the decision and ideas. Now if one does not use their intelligence and make a decision or choice, then that means that a person is acting by chance. So what is the result of drawing a painting using no decision, judgment, or comprehension? Complete disorder. If I throw a bucket of paint on the wall, making no choice as to where the paint aligns on the paper, what are the chances that it will draw a face? Exactly. None. Not only will there be no face, but it will be complete disorder from even looking like a face. In other words, without using intelligence disorder was created. Thus we see that unintelligence and creation by chance creates disorder, thus proving that the order of the stars, planets, and all that exist in the universe did not happen by chance or unintelligence, but intelligent design. Thus proving finally that God is the originator of all creation in the universe. Thus proving finally that God is the originator of all creation in the universe.

The God of the Universe and creation is Allah and the Qur"an is the true word of Allah

"Will they not then meditate upon the Qur'an? Had it been from anyone other than Allah they would surely have found therein much discrepancy."

"Verily, We, it is We who have sent down the Qur"an and surely we will guard it from corruption".

Here we have a test that demonstrates that there is no error in the Qur'an, showing the truthful nature of the Qur'an. If a person disagrees, then the individual can take up the challenge to find a discrepancy in the Qur"an and when the person discovers that there is no discrepancy, then the only logical conclusion that can be derived is that whomever the author of the Qur"an is, the individual is a truth teller and righteous because all of the content in the Qur"an is without error, indecency, and immorality, and it is a guidance to righteousness. The question still remains as to who is the author? The Qur"an answers this question with the following test. The Qur"an states:

"And if you are in doubt as to what We have sent down to our servant, then produce a chapter like it, and call upon your helpers beside Allah if you are truthful."

Here we have a test which proves that it is not humanly possible to produce a chapter like the Qur'an and proves so by challenging all of those who doubt so to prove so by trying to produce a chapter like the Qur'an. For when trying to produce a chapter like the Qur'an, the skeptic will learn first-hand that such a thing is humanly impossible to do.

But before the a skeptic develops the common response of simply producing something in Arabic or claiming that the challenge is not valid because not being able to produce a play like Shakespeare does not mean that the play is from God so the same analogy applies to the Qur'an, let me further elaborate. The Qur'an, like any scripture, is inspiration. And like any scripture, its intent is to inspire people to follow its teaching. Thus the challenge is to produce something that is as inspirational as the Qur'an, for it is the inspiration of the Qur'an that is miraculous. And what is that miracle? The miracle is within the following:

"It is humanly impossible for a person/s to inspire enough followers to help him/her/ them conquer and rule a nation by using human-made speech/literature that goes against the likes and beliefs of those people."


This is the miracle of Muhammad. For the challenge proves that it is humanly impossible to use speech or literature that goes against the majority and is invented by a person/s, to inspire enough followers amongst them to conquer and rule a nation. The skeptic still disagrees? Then take the challenge and prove differently. Try using a speech or literature that does not agree with the likes of a majority of people that is an invention by a person/s. Then use that very same speech to inspire them to conquer a nation for you to rule and see what happens. The challenge can even be simplified by asking a skeptic to just conquer and rule the street that he or she lives on and see what happens. Yet the person will fail and fail miserably. No person will come close to achieving the challenge. Any individual, when taking the challenge, will have a first-hand eyewitness account from experience and observation that such an act is humanly impossible and that is when the person will learn the miracle of Muhammad. Why? The reason is because Muhammad used the Qur'an to inspire enough followers to conquer and rule a nation in the same fashion. So since it is humanly impossible to use human-made speech or literature that goes against the likes of the masses to inspire them to follow a person/s to help conquer and rule a nation, yet Muhammad used the Qur'an to do just that, then what does that mean? That means that the Qur'an that Muhammad used is not the invention of any human but must come from a higher power and authority greater than humans, and that is Allah. Do the skeptics still disagree? Then take the challenge and prove differently. When the challengers fail, because they will, this will help to demonstrate that the Qur"an is of divine origin as proven by the scientific method itself because it provides a hands-on eyewitness account that producing something like the Qur"an is humanly impossible. If you read this, and you yourself disagree, then take the challenge and prove differently.
Badi-Nontheist
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8/9/2014 10:34:39 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
This is an interesting exchange so long as people don't get emotional.

Gnostic (irfan) experience of truth is be definition an internal unveiling so is beyond the realm of logic and can be confused with "confirmation bias" by those who have not attained gnosis.
Wylted
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8/9/2014 10:37:42 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
I'll justify your effort with an in depth response. This will take some time. Be patient with me. None of those are tested hypotheses though, and wouldn't be accepted as evidence of anything. However they are philosophical arguments that deserve a response. Which, I'll provide in a bit.

These are the types of arguments you need to be having in the religious section. Not the other silly threads you've been starting.
debateuser
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8/9/2014 10:47:34 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/9/2014 1:19:11 AM, Fatihah wrote:
My logic and reasoning for concluding anything as truth is from observing and testing the very claim I hold as truth. In other words, putting it into practice. If when put into practice, the hypothesis matches the predicted conclusion, then the claim holds as a valid point. If not, then the claim is not valid. This line of reasoning is the same applied by scientists and is why I accept things as the truth, including historical events, my own religion of Islam, or any other claim I consider as fact.

Bearing this in mind, I say and ask the following. An atheist will say that religion was believed and spread after someone came along and made up stories of revelation. Yet if someone comes to them saying they received revelation, they would not believe. In other words, you claim a logical reason as to why religion is believed, yet when put into practice and someone presents a religion for you to believe, you actually disbelieve it. You have just shown that the reason you claim to be logical, is actually illogical when you put it into practice.

How do you justify this act?

The reason people believe in religion is because they believe in whatever has the name of God or superstition attactched to it. They believe this will help them somehow.
Scientific Errors In Religion : Atheists are right that religion is a myth

Read this topic on below link:

http://www.debate.org...
Fatihah
Posts: 7,770
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8/9/2014 10:52:20 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/9/2014 10:37:42 AM, Wylted wrote:
I'll justify your effort with an in depth response. This will take some time. Be patient with me. None of those are tested hypotheses though, and wouldn't be accepted as evidence of anything. However they are philosophical arguments that deserve a response. Which, I'll provide in a bit.

These are the types of arguments you need to be having in the religious section. Not the other silly threads you've been starting.

Response: And I will show you from your own responses, how they fail as evidence or a refutation to my argument. So I await your rebuttal.
Fatihah
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8/9/2014 10:54:11 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/9/2014 10:47:34 AM, debateuser wrote:

The reason people believe in religion is because they believe in whatever has the name of God or superstition attactched to it. They believe this will help them somehow.

Response: Then if this is the logical reason why people believe in religion, yet you yourself disbelieve religion for this very reason, then you are calling your own logic, illogical. Thus the claim does not hold.
Wylted
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8/9/2014 10:55:30 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/9/2014 10:52:20 AM, Fatihah wrote:
At 8/9/2014 10:37:42 AM, Wylted wrote:
I'll justify your effort with an in depth response. This will take some time. Be patient with me. None of those are tested hypotheses though, and wouldn't be accepted as evidence of anything. However they are philosophical arguments that deserve a response. Which, I'll provide in a bit.

These are the types of arguments you need to be having in the religious section. Not the other silly threads you've been starting.

Response: And I will show you from your own responses, how they fail as evidence or a refutation to my argument. So I await your rebuttal.

You have no ideal what my responses are, but okay.
Fatihah
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8/9/2014 11:13:53 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/9/2014 10:55:30 AM, Wylted wrote:

You have no ideal what my responses are, but okay.

Response: You think I don't. So we will see.
dee-em
Posts: 6,497
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8/9/2014 6:33:01 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/9/2014 9:36:26 AM, Fatihah wrote:
At 8/9/2014 7:07:32 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 8/9/2014 1:19:11 AM, Fatihah wrote:
An atheist will say that religion was believed and spread after someone came along and made up stories of revelation.

Believed by some, not all. Otherwise we would only have one religion and no atheists.

Yet if someone comes to them saying they received revelation, they would not believe.

Because they are a member of that group which did not believe in your first statement.

There is nothing inconsistent here. Logic fail.

Response: If that is the case, then what reason is religion believed and how did the believers convince others to follow it?

You really don't know? Look at yourself.
Fatihah
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8/9/2014 9:14:42 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/9/2014 6:33:01 PM, dee-em wrote:
At 8/9/2014 9:36:26 AM, Fatihah wrote:

Response: If that is the case, then what reason is religion believed and how did the believers convince others to follow it?

You really don't know? Look at yourself.

Response: I do, and it shows Islam is true, and you just confirmed it. Thanks.
celestialtorahteacher
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8/9/2014 9:40:20 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Fatihah, you just ignored wylted's accurate assessment of your reasoning skills. You have none. You don't know how to reason and need to take some classes in logic and critical thinking. You've become brainwashed by letting one man's ideas take control of all your reasoning so that you attempt to match challenges to Muhammad's irrationality continually when that irrationality meets the Western critics and is rapidly demolished by pointing out all the mistaken ideas Muhammad had about most everything, ideas you now have as well like believing the loony tunes idea that Muhammad writing new religious verses is somehow utterly unique in history. As any author would inform a Muhammadan clone, whenever you present new ideas conservative tradition is slow to accept them without some Authority Figure and you know what is the most powerful Authority Figures? The guys with the weapons to kill those who don't believe in the new Strong Man's rulership ideas. That's how the Quran was really accepted by the People. They saw the Strong Man ideology they were familiar with and saw the swords and knives of all the Strong Man's warriors backing up you believe in the Strong Man's way or die. And thus Muhammadism spread rapidly through the Middle East. It would have been stopped and was at European culture that was beginning to react to the centuries of Strong Man Catholic Popes and thus did not want another totalitarian ideology around.

Fatihah, I do pity you that you are stuck with a Bad Religion that is facing its End Times but the sooner you get away from your brainwashing, the sooner you will retrieve your own mind and be able to think rationally once again. Stop doing the 5 times a day brainwashing rituals to reinforce Muhammad's ideas into your brain. Go to University and take Logic 101, Critical Thinking 101, Biology 101, Sociology 101, to catch up with Western knowledge.
debateuser
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8/9/2014 10:16:35 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/9/2014 10:54:11 AM, Fatihah wrote:
At 8/9/2014 10:47:34 AM, debateuser wrote:

The reason people believe in religion is because they believe in whatever has the name of God or superstition attactched to it. They believe this will help them somehow.

Response: Then if this is the logical reason why people believe in religion, yet you yourself disbelieve religion for this very reason, then you are calling your own logic, illogical. Thus the claim does not hold.

When did I say that people are being logical when they believe in a religion
Scientific Errors In Religion : Atheists are right that religion is a myth

Read this topic on below link:

http://www.debate.org...