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We all deserve hell

Benshapiro
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8/14/2014 11:10:17 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
This is one of the most frustrating stances of Christianity that never ceases to bother me. Hell is a place of eternal conscious torment and agony.

Nobody has the foreknowledge to know what happens to us after we die. So why do Christians act as if we would "choose" to hell if not even one person really knows that by disbelieving in God that they would be subjected to eternal torment? If I told you that tomorrow you'd receive a million dollars that's something you don't really know will happen but something I told you. If we don't believe in hearsay that's an "I told you so"? What about the people who simply lived in another culture who believed in a different God or the ones who have never heard of Jesus or the ones who chose to reject God but have good logical reasons for rejecting his existence?

Why does a finite time to sin deserve infinite punishment? And why do greater sinners such as Hitler get the same punishment as a generally good person but nonbeliever would? The punishment doesn't match the crime.

"If you don't accept God, you'll go to hell." This is fear-mongering if I've ever seen it. If you don't believe the things I tell you, you can choose to be in infinite bliss or go to infinite pain and agony. If people REALLY saw that there was hell awaiting us in the afterlife, don't you think you'd see a lot more people converting to Christianity? Not because they love God or what he stands for, but because they accept him out of fear of being burned alive forever and ever. Why would an all loving God set policies for his people to accept him out of fear?

If you arrived in Heaven but your mother arrived in hell, would you accept a deal with God that you could both cease to exist forever?

What good comes of "infinite punishment"? When we discipline somebody it's usually for the greater good because they learn something. But people who go to hell can't learn anything. They simply suffer the wrath of God in the greatest pain imaginable without end?

Why is it more loving and more justified to send people to eternal agony rather than cause them to cease to exist forever? Especially if they couldn't see the future to know they'd end up in hell?

Do we deserve hell because we've sinned against a sinless God and therefore commit a crime of infinite gravity? Well can a sinless father torture his son because he stole a pencil for the first time and lock him in a torture chamber for the rest of his days? Worst part is, the son was told by another kid at school that his father would do this and he didn't believe him. So obviously, this would be an atrocity if the sinless father ever did this to his son. So would an act like stealing a pencil for the first time, subject us to eternal torture forever?

People react to incentives. Here you can heaven if you believe in God. "Ok, that sounds nice." Here, you can have hell if you disbelieve in God "oh that sounds painful and scary, I'd better believe in God so I don't get burned alive the rest of my days." It's bullying and fear-mongering. Imagine if you were part of the mafia. The boss says that you can either go out on a hit and go on vacation to your favorite spot forever, or don't and be kept alive in a torture chamber for as long as you live.

Who is God supposed to be? According to christians he is the pinnacle of love and justice. Does anything I've just written sound like love and justice to you? Maybe if we changed the definition of love and justice. Especially when a God such as this wouldn't make his existence known until it's too late for the people who didn't believe in Christian hearsay. This conception of God sounds straight out of the Middle Ages when corrupt religious leaders used to torture and burn people alive for their sins.

So no, we don't deserve hell christians. If you still think we do, place your hand on a hot stove for 10 seconds the next time you steal a pencil and tell me if you think that's what you deserved. Do it in the name of empathy.
RoderickSpode
Posts: 2,373
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8/14/2014 11:17:40 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/14/2014 11:10:17 AM, Benshapiro wrote:
This is one of the most frustrating stances of Christianity that never ceases to bother me. Hell is a place of eternal conscious torment and agony.

Nobody has the foreknowledge to know what happens to us after we die. So why do Christians act as if we would "choose" to hell if not even one person really knows that by disbelieving in God that they would be subjected to eternal torment? If I told you that tomorrow you'd receive a million dollars that's something you don't really know will happen but something I told you. If we don't believe in hearsay that's an "I told you so"? What about the people who simply lived in another culture who believed in a different God or the ones who have never heard of Jesus or the ones who chose to reject God but have good logical reasons for rejecting his existence?

Why does a finite time to sin deserve infinite punishment? And why do greater sinners such as Hitler get the same punishment as a generally good person but nonbeliever would? The punishment doesn't match the crime.

"If you don't accept God, you'll go to hell." This is fear-mongering if I've ever seen it. If you don't believe the things I tell you, you can choose to be in infinite bliss or go to infinite pain and agony. If people REALLY saw that there was hell awaiting us in the afterlife, don't you think you'd see a lot more people converting to Christianity? Not because they love God or what he stands for, but because they accept him out of fear of being burned alive forever and ever. Why would an all loving God set policies for his people to accept him out of fear?

If you arrived in Heaven but your mother arrived in hell, would you accept a deal with God that you could both cease to exist forever?

What good comes of "infinite punishment"? When we discipline somebody it's usually for the greater good because they learn something. But people who go to hell can't learn anything. They simply suffer the wrath of God in the greatest pain imaginable without end?

Why is it more loving and more justified to send people to eternal agony rather than cause them to cease to exist forever? Especially if they couldn't see the future to know they'd end up in hell?

Do we deserve hell because we've sinned against a sinless God and therefore commit a crime of infinite gravity? Well can a sinless father torture his son because he stole a pencil for the first time and lock him in a torture chamber for the rest of his days? Worst part is, the son was told by another kid at school that his father would do this and he didn't believe him. So obviously, this would be an atrocity if the sinless father ever did this to his son. So would an act like stealing a pencil for the first time, subject us to eternal torture forever?

People react to incentives. Here you can heaven if you believe in God. "Ok, that sounds nice." Here, you can have hell if you disbelieve in God "oh that sounds painful and scary, I'd better believe in God so I don't get burned alive the rest of my days." It's bullying and fear-mongering. Imagine if you were part of the mafia. The boss says that you can either go out on a hit and go on vacation to your favorite spot forever, or don't and be kept alive in a torture chamber for as long as you live.

Who is God supposed to be? According to christians he is the pinnacle of love and justice. Does anything I've just written sound like love and justice to you? Maybe if we changed the definition of love and justice. Especially when a God such as this wouldn't make his existence known until it's too late for the people who didn't believe in Christian hearsay. This conception of God sounds straight out of the Middle Ages when corrupt religious leaders used to torture and burn people alive for their sins.

So no, we don't deserve hell christians. If you still think we do, place your hand on a hot stove for 10 seconds the next time you steal a pencil and tell me if you think that's what you deserved. Do it in the name of empathy.
How do you know that Hell wouldn't be worse for Hitler than say, someone only lied from time to time?

Do you think Hitler deserves eternal punishment?
Benshapiro
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8/14/2014 11:20:32 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
I absolutely think hitler deserves more punishment. Does a murderer deserve more punishment than a petty theif?
RoderickSpode
Posts: 2,373
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8/14/2014 11:25:41 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/14/2014 11:20:32 AM, Benshapiro wrote:
I absolutely think hitler deserves more punishment. Does a murderer deserve more punishment than a petty theif?
The Bible does seem to indicate different degrees of punishment in Hell.
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,924
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8/14/2014 11:32:25 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/14/2014 11:17:40 AM, RoderickSpode wrote:
At 8/14/2014 11:10:17 AM, Benshapiro wrote:
This is one of the most frustrating stances of Christianity that never ceases to bother me. Hell is a place of eternal conscious torment and agony.

Nobody has the foreknowledge to know what happens to us after we die. So why do Christians act as if we would "choose" to hell if not even one person really knows that by disbelieving in God that they would be subjected to eternal torment? If I told you that tomorrow you'd receive a million dollars that's something you don't really know will happen but something I told you. If we don't believe in hearsay that's an "I told you so"? What about the people who simply lived in another culture who believed in a different God or the ones who have never heard of Jesus or the ones who chose to reject God but have good logical reasons for rejecting his existence?

Why does a finite time to sin deserve infinite punishment? And why do greater sinners such as Hitler get the same punishment as a generally good person but nonbeliever would? The punishment doesn't match the crime.

"If you don't accept God, you'll go to hell." This is fear-mongering if I've ever seen it. If you don't believe the things I tell you, you can choose to be in infinite bliss or go to infinite pain and agony. If people REALLY saw that there was hell awaiting us in the afterlife, don't you think you'd see a lot more people converting to Christianity? Not because they love God or what he stands for, but because they accept him out of fear of being burned alive forever and ever. Why would an all loving God set policies for his people to accept him out of fear?

If you arrived in Heaven but your mother arrived in hell, would you accept a deal with God that you could both cease to exist forever?

What good comes of "infinite punishment"? When we discipline somebody it's usually for the greater good because they learn something. But people who go to hell can't learn anything. They simply suffer the wrath of God in the greatest pain imaginable without end?

Why is it more loving and more justified to send people to eternal agony rather than cause them to cease to exist forever? Especially if they couldn't see the future to know they'd end up in hell?

Do we deserve hell because we've sinned against a sinless God and therefore commit a crime of infinite gravity? Well can a sinless father torture his son because he stole a pencil for the first time and lock him in a torture chamber for the rest of his days? Worst part is, the son was told by another kid at school that his father would do this and he didn't believe him. So obviously, this would be an atrocity if the sinless father ever did this to his son. So would an act like stealing a pencil for the first time, subject us to eternal torture forever?

People react to incentives. Here you can heaven if you believe in God. "Ok, that sounds nice." Here, you can have hell if you disbelieve in God "oh that sounds painful and scary, I'd better believe in God so I don't get burned alive the rest of my days." It's bullying and fear-mongering. Imagine if you were part of the mafia. The boss says that you can either go out on a hit and go on vacation to your favorite spot forever, or don't and be kept alive in a torture chamber for as long as you live.

Who is God supposed to be? According to christians he is the pinnacle of love and justice. Does anything I've just written sound like love and justice to you? Maybe if we changed the definition of love and justice. Especially when a God such as this wouldn't make his existence known until it's too late for the people who didn't believe in Christian hearsay. This conception of God sounds straight out of the Middle Ages when corrupt religious leaders used to torture and burn people alive for their sins.

So no, we don't deserve hell christians. If you still think we do, place your hand on a hot stove for 10 seconds the next time you steal a pencil and tell me if you think that's what you deserved. Do it in the name of empathy.
How do you know that Hell wouldn't be worse for Hitler than say, someone only lied from time to time?

Do you think Hitler deserves eternal punishment?

No. No one does.
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
RoderickSpode
Posts: 2,373
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8/14/2014 11:34:00 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/14/2014 11:21:21 AM, Benshapiro wrote:
Not. Even. Hitler. Deserves infinite punishment .
One of the problems with being frustrated with the stance of another group like Christians is that it's not going to make any difference in the long run what stances are held. Or what is the more common popular stance. We Christians can all change our minds, but it doesn't change God's view of what constitutes the deserving of punishment, including eternal punishment.

How do you know what Hitler deserves, or doesn't deserve? What are you basing it on?
RoderickSpode
Posts: 2,373
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8/14/2014 11:37:52 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/14/2014 11:32:25 AM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 8/14/2014 11:17:40 AM, RoderickSpode wrote:
At 8/14/2014 11:10:17 AM, Benshapiro wrote:
This is one of the most frustrating stances of Christianity that never ceases to bother me. Hell is a place of eternal conscious torment and agony.

Nobody has the foreknowledge to know what happens to us after we die. So why do Christians act as if we would "choose" to hell if not even one person really knows that by disbelieving in God that they would be subjected to eternal torment? If I told you that tomorrow you'd receive a million dollars that's something you don't really know will happen but something I told you. If we don't believe in hearsay that's an "I told you so"? What about the people who simply lived in another culture who believed in a different God or the ones who have never heard of Jesus or the ones who chose to reject God but have good logical reasons for rejecting his existence?

Why does a finite time to sin deserve infinite punishment? And why do greater sinners such as Hitler get the same punishment as a generally good person but nonbeliever would? The punishment doesn't match the crime.

"If you don't accept God, you'll go to hell." This is fear-mongering if I've ever seen it. If you don't believe the things I tell you, you can choose to be in infinite bliss or go to infinite pain and agony. If people REALLY saw that there was hell awaiting us in the afterlife, don't you think you'd see a lot more people converting to Christianity? Not because they love God or what he stands for, but because they accept him out of fear of being burned alive forever and ever. Why would an all loving God set policies for his people to accept him out of fear?

If you arrived in Heaven but your mother arrived in hell, would you accept a deal with God that you could both cease to exist forever?

What good comes of "infinite punishment"? When we discipline somebody it's usually for the greater good because they learn something. But people who go to hell can't learn anything. They simply suffer the wrath of God in the greatest pain imaginable without end?

Why is it more loving and more justified to send people to eternal agony rather than cause them to cease to exist forever? Especially if they couldn't see the future to know they'd end up in hell?

Do we deserve hell because we've sinned against a sinless God and therefore commit a crime of infinite gravity? Well can a sinless father torture his son because he stole a pencil for the first time and lock him in a torture chamber for the rest of his days? Worst part is, the son was told by another kid at school that his father would do this and he didn't believe him. So obviously, this would be an atrocity if the sinless father ever did this to his son. So would an act like stealing a pencil for the first time, subject us to eternal torture forever?

People react to incentives. Here you can heaven if you believe in God. "Ok, that sounds nice." Here, you can have hell if you disbelieve in God "oh that sounds painful and scary, I'd better believe in God so I don't get burned alive the rest of my days." It's bullying and fear-mongering. Imagine if you were part of the mafia. The boss says that you can either go out on a hit and go on vacation to your favorite spot forever, or don't and be kept alive in a torture chamber for as long as you live.

Who is God supposed to be? According to christians he is the pinnacle of love and justice. Does anything I've just written sound like love and justice to you? Maybe if we changed the definition of love and justice. Especially when a God such as this wouldn't make his existence known until it's too late for the people who didn't believe in Christian hearsay. This conception of God sounds straight out of the Middle Ages when corrupt religious leaders used to torture and burn people alive for their sins.

So no, we don't deserve hell christians. If you still think we do, place your hand on a hot stove for 10 seconds the next time you steal a pencil and tell me if you think that's what you deserved. Do it in the name of empathy.
How do you know that Hell wouldn't be worse for Hitler than say, someone only lied from time to time?

Do you think Hitler deserves eternal punishment?

No. No one does.
Out of curiosity, what do you think would be a good, or just punishment for Hitler?
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,924
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8/14/2014 11:37:56 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/14/2014 11:34:00 AM, RoderickSpode wrote:
At 8/14/2014 11:21:21 AM, Benshapiro wrote:
Not. Even. Hitler. Deserves infinite punishment .
One of the problems with being frustrated with the stance of another group like Christians is that it's not going to make any difference in the long run what stances are held. Or what is the more common popular stance. We Christians can all change our minds, but it doesn't change God's view of what constitutes the deserving of punishment, including eternal punishment.


Why assume God's view of what constitutes punishment isn't annihilation or (ultimately) reconcilliation? Why assume it's eternal punishment?

How do you know what Hitler deserves, or doesn't deserve? What are you basing it on?
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
Benshapiro
Posts: 3,966
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8/14/2014 11:41:45 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/14/2014 11:34:00 AM, RoderickSpode wrote:
At 8/14/2014 11:21:21 AM, Benshapiro wrote:
Not. Even. Hitler. Deserves infinite punishment .
One of the problems with being frustrated with the stance of another group like Christians is that it's not going to make any difference in the long run what stances are held. Or what is the more common popular stance. We Christians can all change our minds, but it doesn't change God's view of what constitutes the deserving of punishment, including eternal punishment.

How do you know what Hitler deserves, or doesn't deserve? What are you basing it on?

Actually verses in the Bible can support annihilationism. Even verses like John 3:16.

I know enough about justice to know that hitler deserves more punishment that someone who has committed a lesser crime. What would justice mean if all lawbreaker were sentenced to infinite punishment no matter how many more crimes they accumulated or what type of crimes they were? A child molester and a kid that steals a pencil deserve infinite punishment?
Benshapiro
Posts: 3,966
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8/14/2014 11:43:40 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/14/2014 11:37:56 AM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 8/14/2014 11:34:00 AM, RoderickSpode wrote:
At 8/14/2014 11:21:21 AM, Benshapiro wrote:
Not. Even. Hitler. Deserves infinite punishment .
One of the problems with being frustrated with the stance of another group like Christians is that it's not going to make any difference in the long run what stances are held. Or what is the more common popular stance. We Christians can all change our minds, but it doesn't change God's view of what constitutes the deserving of punishment, including eternal punishment.


Why assume God's view of what constitutes punishment isn't annihilation or (ultimately) reconcilliation? Why assume it's eternal punishment?

How do you know what Hitler deserves, or doesn't deserve? What are you basing it on?

Annihilation seems compatible with an all loving God but this wasn't directed at people who believe that.
Benshapiro
Posts: 3,966
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8/14/2014 11:46:02 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/14/2014 11:37:52 AM, RoderickSpode wrote:
At 8/14/2014 11:32:25 AM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 8/14/2014 11:17:40 AM, RoderickSpode wrote:
At 8/14/2014 11:10:17 AM, Benshapiro wrote:
This is one of the most frustrating stances of Christianity that never ceases to bother me. Hell is a place of eternal conscious torment and agony.

Nobody has the foreknowledge to know what happens to us after we die. So why do Christians act as if we would "choose" to hell if not even one person really knows that by disbelieving in God that they would be subjected to eternal torment? If I told you that tomorrow you'd receive a million dollars that's something you don't really know will happen but something I told you. If we don't believe in hearsay that's an "I told you so"? What about the people who simply lived in another culture who believed in a different God or the ones who have never heard of Jesus or the ones who chose to reject God but have good logical reasons for rejecting his existence?

Why does a finite time to sin deserve infinite punishment? And why do greater sinners such as Hitler get the same punishment as a generally good person but nonbeliever would? The punishment doesn't match the crime.

"If you don't accept God, you'll go to hell." This is fear-mongering if I've ever seen it. If you don't believe the things I tell you, you can choose to be in infinite bliss or go to infinite pain and agony. If people REALLY saw that there was hell awaiting us in the afterlife, don't you think you'd see a lot more people converting to Christianity? Not because they love God or what he stands for, but because they accept him out of fear of being burned alive forever and ever. Why would an all loving God set policies for his people to accept him out of fear?

If you arrived in Heaven but your mother arrived in hell, would you accept a deal with God that you could both cease to exist forever?

What good comes of "infinite punishment"? When we discipline somebody it's usually for the greater good because they learn something. But people who go to hell can't learn anything. They simply suffer the wrath of God in the greatest pain imaginable without end?

Why is it more loving and more justified to send people to eternal agony rather than cause them to cease to exist forever? Especially if they couldn't see the future to know they'd end up in hell?

Do we deserve hell because we've sinned against a sinless God and therefore commit a crime of infinite gravity? Well can a sinless father torture his son because he stole a pencil for the first time and lock him in a torture chamber for the rest of his days? Worst part is, the son was told by another kid at school that his father would do this and he didn't believe him. So obviously, this would be an atrocity if the sinless father ever did this to his son. So would an act like stealing a pencil for the first time, subject us to eternal torture forever?

People react to incentives. Here you can heaven if you believe in God. "Ok, that sounds nice." Here, you can have hell if you disbelieve in God "oh that sounds painful and scary, I'd better believe in God so I don't get burned alive the rest of my days." It's bullying and fear-mongering. Imagine if you were part of the mafia. The boss says that you can either go out on a hit and go on vacation to your favorite spot forever, or don't and be kept alive in a torture chamber for as long as you live.

Who is God supposed to be? According to christians he is the pinnacle of love and justice. Does anything I've just written sound like love and justice to you? Maybe if we changed the definition of love and justice. Especially when a God such as this wouldn't make his existence known until it's too late for the people who didn't believe in Christian hearsay. This conception of God sounds straight out of the Middle Ages when corrupt religious leaders used to torture and burn people alive for their sins.

So no, we don't deserve hell christians. If you still think we do, place your hand on a hot stove for 10 seconds the next time you steal a pencil and tell me if you think that's what you deserved. Do it in the name of empathy.
How do you know that Hell wouldn't be worse for Hitler than say, someone only lied from time to time?

Do you think Hitler deserves eternal punishment?

No. No one does.
Out of curiosity, what do you think would be a good, or just punishment for Hitler?

I'm not the pinnacle of justice, but hitler deserves to relive the grief he has caused every single person through their point of view then be annihilated out of existence.
RoderickSpode
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8/14/2014 11:53:38 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/14/2014 11:37:56 AM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 8/14/2014 11:34:00 AM, RoderickSpode wrote:
At 8/14/2014 11:21:21 AM, Benshapiro wrote:
Not. Even. Hitler. Deserves infinite punishment .
One of the problems with being frustrated with the stance of another group like Christians is that it's not going to make any difference in the long run what stances are held. Or what is the more common popular stance. We Christians can all change our minds, but it doesn't change God's view of what constitutes the deserving of punishment, including eternal punishment.


Why assume God's view of what constitutes punishment isn't annihilation or (ultimately) reconcilliation? Why assume it's eternal punishment?

How do you know what Hitler deserves, or doesn't deserve? What are you basing it on?
I don't assume that. There are a good number of believers that take that view. And I respect a number of them. They seem to interpret scripture as literally teaching annihilation. And they might be right.

As of now, to me, scripture seems to give stronger evidence towards eternal punishment.

I ordered a book I haven't read yet called "All You Want To Know About Hell" by Steve Gregg. It gives an objective view on the doctrine of eternal damnation, annihiism, and universalism.

What has bothered me as far as some comments I've heard annihilists make is adding what I think is an unscriptural opinion that God would never punish someone eternally. Or a loving God would never do that. One of the obvious problems of that would be of course if they at some point conclude they were wrong, they have to back track and deal with that statement. Another would be the question as to what they thought if at one time they did believe God punished sinners eternally (I think most annihists held that prior view).

What I don't want to do is make any assumptions as to what would be just punishment from a Holy God.
RoderickSpode
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8/14/2014 11:58:20 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/14/2014 11:41:45 AM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 8/14/2014 11:34:00 AM, RoderickSpode wrote:
At 8/14/2014 11:21:21 AM, Benshapiro wrote:
Not. Even. Hitler. Deserves infinite punishment .
One of the problems with being frustrated with the stance of another group like Christians is that it's not going to make any difference in the long run what stances are held. Or what is the more common popular stance. We Christians can all change our minds, but it doesn't change God's view of what constitutes the deserving of punishment, including eternal punishment.

How do you know what Hitler deserves, or doesn't deserve? What are you basing it on?

Actually verses in the Bible can support annihilationism. Even verses like John 3:16.

I know enough about justice to know that hitler deserves more punishment that someone who has committed a lesser crime. What would justice mean if all lawbreaker were sentenced to infinite punishment no matter how many more crimes they accumulated or what type of crimes they were? A child molester and a kid that steals a pencil deserve infinite punishment?
The problem is how does a Holy God view any type of sin?

I think a scriptural case can be made for annihilationism. But a scriptural case can be made for eternal damnation as well. And as I stated, I think it's a bit stronger. And if the latter is true, does that make God unjust? I would say, no!
Benshapiro
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8/14/2014 12:01:51 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/14/2014 11:58:20 AM, RoderickSpode wrote:
At 8/14/2014 11:41:45 AM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 8/14/2014 11:34:00 AM, RoderickSpode wrote:
At 8/14/2014 11:21:21 AM, Benshapiro wrote:
Not. Even. Hitler. Deserves infinite punishment .
One of the problems with being frustrated with the stance of another group like Christians is that it's not going to make any difference in the long run what stances are held. Or what is the more common popular stance. We Christians can all change our minds, but it doesn't change God's view of what constitutes the deserving of punishment, including eternal punishment.

How do you know what Hitler deserves, or doesn't deserve? What are you basing it on?

Actually verses in the Bible can support annihilationism. Even verses like John 3:16.

I know enough about justice to know that hitler deserves more punishment that someone who has committed a lesser crime. What would justice mean if all lawbreaker were sentenced to infinite punishment no matter how many more crimes they accumulated or what type of crimes they were? A child molester and a kid that steals a pencil deserve infinite punishment?
The problem is how does a Holy God view any type of sin?

I think a scriptural case can be made for annihilationism. But a scriptural case can be made for eternal damnation as well. And as I stated, I think it's a bit stronger. And if the latter is true, does that make God unjust? I would say, no!

I would say yes, it does. Read my first post point by point with an open mind and by the end of it tell me if you think it makes God unjust.
RoderickSpode
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8/14/2014 12:04:01 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/14/2014 11:46:02 AM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 8/14/2014 11:37:52 AM, RoderickSpode wrote:
At 8/14/2014 11:32:25 AM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 8/14/2014 11:17:40 AM, RoderickSpode wrote:
At 8/14/2014 11:10:17 AM, Benshapiro wrote:
This is one of the most frustrating stances of Christianity that never ceases to bother me. Hell is a place of eternal conscious torment and agony.

Nobody has the foreknowledge to know what happens to us after we die. So why do Christians act as if we would "choose" to hell if not even one person really knows that by disbelieving in God that they would be subjected to eternal torment? If I told you that tomorrow you'd receive a million dollars that's something you don't really know will happen but something I told you. If we don't believe in hearsay that's an "I told you so"? What about the people who simply lived in another culture who believed in a different God or the ones who have never heard of Jesus or the ones who chose to reject God but have good logical reasons for rejecting his existence?

Why does a finite time to sin deserve infinite punishment? And why do greater sinners such as Hitler get the same punishment as a generally good person but nonbeliever would? The punishment doesn't match the crime.

"If you don't accept God, you'll go to hell." This is fear-mongering if I've ever seen it. If you don't believe the things I tell you, you can choose to be in infinite bliss or go to infinite pain and agony. If people REALLY saw that there was hell awaiting us in the afterlife, don't you think you'd see a lot more people converting to Christianity? Not because they love God or what he stands for, but because they accept him out of fear of being burned alive forever and ever. Why would an all loving God set policies for his people to accept him out of fear?

If you arrived in Heaven but your mother arrived in hell, would you accept a deal with God that you could both cease to exist forever?

What good comes of "infinite punishment"? When we discipline somebody it's usually for the greater good because they learn something. But people who go to hell can't learn anything. They simply suffer the wrath of God in the greatest pain imaginable without end?

Why is it more loving and more justified to send people to eternal agony rather than cause them to cease to exist forever? Especially if they couldn't see the future to know they'd end up in hell?

Do we deserve hell because we've sinned against a sinless God and therefore commit a crime of infinite gravity? Well can a sinless father torture his son because he stole a pencil for the first time and lock him in a torture chamber for the rest of his days? Worst part is, the son was told by another kid at school that his father would do this and he didn't believe him. So obviously, this would be an atrocity if the sinless father ever did this to his son. So would an act like stealing a pencil for the first time, subject us to eternal torture forever?

People react to incentives. Here you can heaven if you believe in God. "Ok, that sounds nice." Here, you can have hell if you disbelieve in God "oh that sounds painful and scary, I'd better believe in God so I don't get burned alive the rest of my days." It's bullying and fear-mongering. Imagine if you were part of the mafia. The boss says that you can either go out on a hit and go on vacation to your favorite spot forever, or don't and be kept alive in a torture chamber for as long as you live.

Who is God supposed to be? According to christians he is the pinnacle of love and justice. Does anything I've just written sound like love and justice to you? Maybe if we changed the definition of love and justice. Especially when a God such as this wouldn't make his existence known until it's too late for the people who didn't believe in Christian hearsay. This conception of God sounds straight out of the Middle Ages when corrupt religious leaders used to torture and burn people alive for their sins.

So no, we don't deserve hell christians. If you still think we do, place your hand on a hot stove for 10 seconds the next time you steal a pencil and tell me if you think that's what you deserved. Do it in the name of empathy.
How do you know that Hell wouldn't be worse for Hitler than say, someone only lied from time to time?

Do you think Hitler deserves eternal punishment?

No. No one does.
Out of curiosity, what do you think would be a good, or just punishment for Hitler?

I'm not the pinnacle of justice, but hitler deserves to relive the grief he has caused every single person through their point of view then be annihilated out of existence.
If you mean by relive the grief he would have to sit and watch a review of his life, I don't know if that would cause any grief unless his character was somehow changed to meet this type of conviction.

If he had annihilation to look forward to, I would think that would be an act of mercy (and he would forget everything he had to review as well). The question might be, does Hitler deserve that kind of mercy?
Benshapiro
Posts: 3,966
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8/14/2014 12:08:26 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/14/2014 12:04:01 PM, RoderickSpode wrote:
At 8/14/2014 11:46:02 AM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 8/14/2014 11:37:52 AM, RoderickSpode wrote:
At 8/14/2014 11:32:25 AM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 8/14/2014 11:17:40 AM, RoderickSpode wrote:
At 8/14/2014 11:10:17 AM, Benshapiro wrote:
This is one of the most frustrating stances of Christianity that never ceases to bother me. Hell is a place of eternal conscious torment and agony.

Nobody has the foreknowledge to know what happens to us after we die. So why do Christians act as if we would "choose" to hell if not even one person really knows that by disbelieving in God that they would be subjected to eternal torment? If I told you that tomorrow you'd receive a million dollars that's something you don't really know will happen but something I told you. If we don't believe in hearsay that's an "I told you so"? What about the people who simply lived in another culture who believed in a different God or the ones who have never heard of Jesus or the ones who chose to reject God but have good logical reasons for rejecting his existence?

Why does a finite time to sin deserve infinite punishment? And why do greater sinners such as Hitler get the same punishment as a generally good person but nonbeliever would? The punishment doesn't match the crime.

"If you don't accept God, you'll go to hell." This is fear-mongering if I've ever seen it. If you don't believe the things I tell you, you can choose to be in infinite bliss or go to infinite pain and agony. If people REALLY saw that there was hell awaiting us in the afterlife, don't you think you'd see a lot more people converting to Christianity? Not because they love God or what he stands for, but because they accept him out of fear of being burned alive forever and ever. Why would an all loving God set policies for his people to accept him out of fear?

If you arrived in Heaven but your mother arrived in hell, would you accept a deal with God that you could both cease to exist forever?

What good comes of "infinite punishment"? When we discipline somebody it's usually for the greater good because they learn something. But people who go to hell can't learn anything. They simply suffer the wrath of God in the greatest pain imaginable without end?

Why is it more loving and more justified to send people to eternal agony rather than cause them to cease to exist forever? Especially if they couldn't see the future to know they'd end up in hell?

Do we deserve hell because we've sinned against a sinless God and therefore commit a crime of infinite gravity? Well can a sinless father torture his son because he stole a pencil for the first time and lock him in a torture chamber for the rest of his days? Worst part is, the son was told by another kid at school that his father would do this and he didn't believe him. So obviously, this would be an atrocity if the sinless father ever did this to his son. So would an act like stealing a pencil for the first time, subject us to eternal torture forever?

People react to incentives. Here you can heaven if you believe in God. "Ok, that sounds nice." Here, you can have hell if you disbelieve in God "oh that sounds painful and scary, I'd better believe in God so I don't get burned alive the rest of my days." It's bullying and fear-mongering. Imagine if you were part of the mafia. The boss says that you can either go out on a hit and go on vacation to your favorite spot forever, or don't and be kept alive in a torture chamber for as long as you live.

Who is God supposed to be? According to christians he is the pinnacle of love and justice. Does anything I've just written sound like love and justice to you? Maybe if we changed the definition of love and justice. Especially when a God such as this wouldn't make his existence known until it's too late for the people who didn't believe in Christian hearsay. This conception of God sounds straight out of the Middle Ages when corrupt religious leaders used to torture and burn people alive for their sins.

So no, we don't deserve hell christians. If you still think we do, place your hand on a hot stove for 10 seconds the next time you steal a pencil and tell me if you think that's what you deserved. Do it in the name of empathy.
How do you know that Hell wouldn't be worse for Hitler than say, someone only lied from time to time?

Do you think Hitler deserves eternal punishment?

No. No one does.
Out of curiosity, what do you think would be a good, or just punishment for Hitler?

I'm not the pinnacle of justice, but hitler deserves to relive the grief he has caused every single person through their point of view then be annihilated out of existence.
If you mean by relive the grief he would have to sit and watch a review of his life, I don't know if that would cause any grief unless his character was somehow changed to meet this type of conviction.

If he had annihilation to look forward to, I would think that would be an act of mercy (and he would forget everything he had to review as well). The question might be, does Hitler deserve that kind of mercy?

I said relive the grief through their point of view. As if feeling exactly what each person felt first person.
RoderickSpode
Posts: 2,373
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8/14/2014 12:30:12 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/14/2014 12:01:51 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 8/14/2014 11:58:20 AM, RoderickSpode wrote:
At 8/14/2014 11:41:45 AM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 8/14/2014 11:34:00 AM, RoderickSpode wrote:
At 8/14/2014 11:21:21 AM, Benshapiro wrote:
Not. Even. Hitler. Deserves infinite punishment .
One of the problems with being frustrated with the stance of another group like Christians is that it's not going to make any difference in the long run what stances are held. Or what is the more common popular stance. We Christians can all change our minds, but it doesn't change God's view of what constitutes the deserving of punishment, including eternal punishment.

How do you know what Hitler deserves, or doesn't deserve? What are you basing it on?

Actually verses in the Bible can support annihilationism. Even verses like John 3:16.

I know enough about justice to know that hitler deserves more punishment that someone who has committed a lesser crime. What would justice mean if all lawbreaker were sentenced to infinite punishment no matter how many more crimes they accumulated or what type of crimes they were? A child molester and a kid that steals a pencil deserve infinite punishment?
The problem is how does a Holy God view any type of sin?

I think a scriptural case can be made for annihilationism. But a scriptural case can be made for eternal damnation as well. And as I stated, I think it's a bit stronger. And if the latter is true, does that make God unjust? I would say, no!

I would say yes, it does. Read my first post point by point with an open mind and by the end of it tell me if you think it makes God unjust.
I've read it all, and see some problems.

You stated:

When we discipline somebody it's usually for the greater good because they learn something.

If Hitler had to relive his life somehow (in sort of a reviewing of his life), thus to learn something, what good is it going to do if he's going to cease to exist unless he gets to actually live again in his physical body (reincarnated, etc.)?

Even our earthly law system implements a maximum punishment that involves no second chance (life imprisonment and the death sentence).

If the reliving of one's life that Hitler might be subject to were particularly painful, I would think annihilation would be a relief. Do you think Hitler deserves a relief? Yes, God could opt to give him relief. We might say it's nice of God to do that. But does Hitler deserve relief?

Lastly, you referred to those who never heard the Gospel. I've heard it stated that God judges according to what we know, not what we don't know.

You might want to read this if/when you have time.

http://www.net-burst.net...
RoderickSpode
Posts: 2,373
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8/14/2014 12:31:33 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/14/2014 12:08:26 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 8/14/2014 12:04:01 PM, RoderickSpode wrote:
At 8/14/2014 11:46:02 AM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 8/14/2014 11:37:52 AM, RoderickSpode wrote:
At 8/14/2014 11:32:25 AM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 8/14/2014 11:17:40 AM, RoderickSpode wrote:
At 8/14/2014 11:10:17 AM, Benshapiro wrote:
This is one of the most frustrating stances of Christianity that never ceases to bother me. Hell is a place of eternal conscious torment and agony.

Nobody has the foreknowledge to know what happens to us after we die. So why do Christians act as if we would "choose" to hell if not even one person really knows that by disbelieving in God that they would be subjected to eternal torment? If I told you that tomorrow you'd receive a million dollars that's something you don't really know will happen but something I told you. If we don't believe in hearsay that's an "I told you so"? What about the people who simply lived in another culture who believed in a different God or the ones who have never heard of Jesus or the ones who chose to reject God but have good logical reasons for rejecting his existence?

Why does a finite time to sin deserve infinite punishment? And why do greater sinners such as Hitler get the same punishment as a generally good person but nonbeliever would? The punishment doesn't match the crime.

"If you don't accept God, you'll go to hell." This is fear-mongering if I've ever seen it. If you don't believe the things I tell you, you can choose to be in infinite bliss or go to infinite pain and agony. If people REALLY saw that there was hell awaiting us in the afterlife, don't you think you'd see a lot more people converting to Christianity? Not because they love God or what he stands for, but because they accept him out of fear of being burned alive forever and ever. Why would an all loving God set policies for his people to accept him out of fear?

If you arrived in Heaven but your mother arrived in hell, would you accept a deal with God that you could both cease to exist forever?

What good comes of "infinite punishment"? When we discipline somebody it's usually for the greater good because they learn something. But people who go to hell can't learn anything. They simply suffer the wrath of God in the greatest pain imaginable without end?

Why is it more loving and more justified to send people to eternal agony rather than cause them to cease to exist forever? Especially if they couldn't see the future to know they'd end up in hell?

Do we deserve hell because we've sinned against a sinless God and therefore commit a crime of infinite gravity? Well can a sinless father torture his son because he stole a pencil for the first time and lock him in a torture chamber for the rest of his days? Worst part is, the son was told by another kid at school that his father would do this and he didn't believe him. So obviously, this would be an atrocity if the sinless father ever did this to his son. So would an act like stealing a pencil for the first time, subject us to eternal torture forever?

People react to incentives. Here you can heaven if you believe in God. "Ok, that sounds nice." Here, you can have hell if you disbelieve in God "oh that sounds painful and scary, I'd better believe in God so I don't get burned alive the rest of my days." It's bullying and fear-mongering. Imagine if you were part of the mafia. The boss says that you can either go out on a hit and go on vacation to your favorite spot forever, or don't and be kept alive in a torture chamber for as long as you live.

Who is God supposed to be? According to christians he is the pinnacle of love and justice. Does anything I've just written sound like love and justice to you? Maybe if we changed the definition of love and justice. Especially when a God such as this wouldn't make his existence known until it's too late for the people who didn't believe in Christian hearsay. This conception of God sounds straight out of the Middle Ages when corrupt religious leaders used to torture and burn people alive for their sins.

So no, we don't deserve hell christians. If you still think we do, place your hand on a hot stove for 10 seconds the next time you steal a pencil and tell me if you think that's what you deserved. Do it in the name of empathy.
How do you know that Hell wouldn't be worse for Hitler than say, someone only lied from time to time?

Do you think Hitler deserves eternal punishment?

No. No one does.
Out of curiosity, what do you think would be a good, or just punishment for Hitler?

I'm not the pinnacle of justice, but hitler deserves to relive the grief he has caused every single person through their point of view then be annihilated out of existence.
If you mean by relive the grief he would have to sit and watch a review of his life, I don't know if that would cause any grief unless his character was somehow changed to meet this type of conviction.

If he had annihilation to look forward to, I would think that would be an act of mercy (and he would forget everything he had to review as well). The question might be, does Hitler deserve that kind of mercy?

I said relive the grief through their point of view. As if feeling exactly what each person felt first person.
What good is that going to do if he is annihilated?
Benshapiro
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8/14/2014 12:36:19 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/14/2014 12:30:12 PM, RoderickSpode wrote:
At 8/14/2014 12:01:51 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 8/14/2014 11:58:20 AM, RoderickSpode wrote:
At 8/14/2014 11:41:45 AM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 8/14/2014 11:34:00 AM, RoderickSpode wrote:
At 8/14/2014 11:21:21 AM, Benshapiro wrote:
Not. Even. Hitler. Deserves infinite punishment .
One of the problems with being frustrated with the stance of another group like Christians is that it's not going to make any difference in the long run what stances are held. Or what is the more common popular stance. We Christians can all change our minds, but it doesn't change God's view of what constitutes the deserving of punishment, including eternal punishment.

How do you know what Hitler deserves, or doesn't deserve? What are you basing it on?

Actually verses in the Bible can support annihilationism. Even verses like John 3:16.

I know enough about justice to know that hitler deserves more punishment that someone who has committed a lesser crime. What would justice mean if all lawbreaker were sentenced to infinite punishment no matter how many more crimes they accumulated or what type of crimes they were? A child molester and a kid that steals a pencil deserve infinite punishment?
The problem is how does a Holy God view any type of sin?

I think a scriptural case can be made for annihilationism. But a scriptural case can be made for eternal damnation as well. And as I stated, I think it's a bit stronger. And if the latter is true, does that make God unjust? I would say, no!

I would say yes, it does. Read my first post point by point with an open mind and by the end of it tell me if you think it makes God unjust.
I've read it all, and see some problems.

You stated:

When we discipline somebody it's usually for the greater good because they learn something.

If Hitler had to relive his life somehow (in sort of a reviewing of his life), thus to learn something, what good is it going to do if he's going to cease to exist unless he gets to actually live again in his physical body (reincarnated, etc.)?

Even our earthly law system implements a maximum punishment that involves no second chance (life imprisonment and the death sentence).

If the reliving of one's life that Hitler might be subject to were particularly painful, I would think annihilation would be a relief. Do you think Hitler deserves a relief? Yes, God could opt to give him relief. We might say it's nice of God to do that. But does Hitler deserve relief?

Lastly, you referred to those who never heard the Gospel. I've heard it stated that God judges according to what we know, not what we don't know.

You might want to read this if/when you have time.

http://www.net-burst.net...

Do you think that hitler deserves infinite punishment? Do you think he deserves more than 100 trillion years of torture? Is that not quite enough?

I'm not the pinnacle of justice so I gave my best guess on what would constitute it. Somehow him reliving all the bad experiences he's caused then ceasing to exist. He's caused millions of people to suffer, which would be a lot of reliving to do. At the end of it I'm sure his perspective would be changed. At that point I don't know what should happen.
Benshapiro
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8/14/2014 12:38:35 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Also, I'd rather never hear of Jesus and have him judge me on that basis than rationalize disbelief in hearsay and be held accountable and sent to a torture chamber forever.
GodChoosesLife
Posts: 3,461
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8/14/2014 12:43:38 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
So, should crime be unjustified for everyone?
Better than deserved, as ALWAYS.
"The strongest principle of growth lies in human choices."
"The Lord doesn't promise us a perfect life that is free of problems, but he does promise that He'll get us through anything." ~SweeTea
"Good Times" ~ Max
"If Jesus isn't in heaven, then it's not heaven; instead, it's hell." ~anonymous
"Suffering is unimaginably confusing, but it's a way to be drawn closer to God" ~Me
"Tell me what consumes your heart most, and I'll tell you who your God is." ~Dad
Benshapiro
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8/14/2014 12:49:49 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/14/2014 12:43:38 PM, GodChoosesLife wrote:
So, should crime be unjustified for everyone?

Do you think that a thief should get less punishment than a murderer?
Envisage
Posts: 3,646
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8/14/2014 12:50:22 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/14/2014 11:10:17 AM, Benshapiro wrote:

I find contemplating Graham's Number a good way to see just how scary Infinity is.

I don't think most people understand what infinity really entails when they talk about it, and experiencing it is unfathomable...
GodChoosesLife
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8/14/2014 12:51:06 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/14/2014 12:49:49 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 8/14/2014 12:43:38 PM, GodChoosesLife wrote:
So, should crime be unjustified for everyone?

Do you think that a thief should get less punishment than a murderer?

Answer my question first and I'll answer yours :)
Better than deserved, as ALWAYS.
"The strongest principle of growth lies in human choices."
"The Lord doesn't promise us a perfect life that is free of problems, but he does promise that He'll get us through anything." ~SweeTea
"Good Times" ~ Max
"If Jesus isn't in heaven, then it's not heaven; instead, it's hell." ~anonymous
"Suffering is unimaginably confusing, but it's a way to be drawn closer to God" ~Me
"Tell me what consumes your heart most, and I'll tell you who your God is." ~Dad
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,924
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8/14/2014 12:55:04 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/14/2014 11:53:38 AM, RoderickSpode wrote:
At 8/14/2014 11:37:56 AM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 8/14/2014 11:34:00 AM, RoderickSpode wrote:
At 8/14/2014 11:21:21 AM, Benshapiro wrote:
Not. Even. Hitler. Deserves infinite punishment .
One of the problems with being frustrated with the stance of another group like Christians is that it's not going to make any difference in the long run what stances are held. Or what is the more common popular stance. We Christians can all change our minds, but it doesn't change God's view of what constitutes the deserving of punishment, including eternal punishment.


Why assume God's view of what constitutes punishment isn't annihilation or (ultimately) reconcilliation? Why assume it's eternal punishment?

How do you know what Hitler deserves, or doesn't deserve? What are you basing it on?
I don't assume that. There are a good number of believers that take that view. And I respect a number of them. They seem to interpret scripture as literally teaching annihilation. And they might be right.

As of now, to me, scripture seems to give stronger evidence towards eternal punishment.


For me, I divested myself of that belief long ago. I don't think the evidence points to towards eternal punishment at all anymore. It seems to me to be remarkably weak now.

I ordered a book I haven't read yet called "All You Want To Know About Hell" by Steve Gregg. It gives an objective view on the doctrine of eternal damnation, annihiism, and universalism.

What has bothered me as far as some comments I've heard annihilists make is adding what I think is an unscriptural opinion that God would never punish someone eternally. Or a loving God would never do that.

Why? We can safely say a loving God would never torture infants for fun. Why can't we say a loving God would never damn anyone eternallY?

One of the obvious problems of that would be of course if they at some point conclude they were wrong, they have to back track and deal with that statement.

How is that a problem?

Another would be the question as to what they thought if at one time they did believe God punished sinners eternally (I think most annihists held that prior view).


In my experience, most don't think about it all that much. I know before I started critcially examing that belief I had a sense of disqueit that it was wrong, but I just kind of swept it aside, and figured there HAD to be a good defense of it because scripture supported the position.

What I don't want to do is make any assumptions as to what would be just punishment from a Holy God.

I think we can safely rule out some options.
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
Benshapiro
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8/14/2014 12:56:08 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/14/2014 12:51:06 PM, GodChoosesLife wrote:
At 8/14/2014 12:49:49 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 8/14/2014 12:43:38 PM, GodChoosesLife wrote:
So, should crime be unjustified for everyone?

Do you think that a thief should get less punishment than a murderer?

Answer my question first and I'll answer yours :)

Yes I believe everyone deserves justice. Infinite torture is not justice.
Truth_seeker
Posts: 1,811
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8/14/2014 12:58:04 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/14/2014 11:10:17 AM, Benshapiro wrote:
This is one of the most frustrating stances of Christianity that never ceases to bother me. Hell is a place of eternal conscious torment and agony.

Nobody has the foreknowledge to know what is happens to us after we die. So why do Christians act as if we would "choose" to hell if not even one person really knows that by disbelieving in God that they would be subjected to eternal torment? If I told you that tomorrow you'd receive a million dollars that's something you don't really know will happen but something I told you. If we don't believe in hearsay that's an "I told you so"? What about the people who simply lived in another culture who believed in a different God or the ones who have never heard of Jesus or the ones who chose to reject God but have good logical reasons for rejecting his existence?

Why does a finite time to sin deserve infinite punishment? And why do greater sinners such as Hitler get the same punishment as a generally good person but nonbeliever would? The punishment doesn't match the crime.

"If you don't accept God, you'll go to hell." This is fear-mongering if I've ever seen it. If you don't believe the things I tell you, you can choose to be in infinite bliss or go to infinite pain and agony. If people REALLY saw that there was hell awaiting us in the afterlife, don't you think you'd see a lot more people converting to Christianity? Not because they love God or what he stands for, but because they accept him out of fear of being burned alive forever and ever. Why would an all loving God set policies for his people to accept him out of fear?

If you arrived in Heaven but your mother arrived in hell, would you accept a deal with God that you could both cease to exist forever?

What good comes of "infinite punishment"? When we discipline somebody it's usually for the greater good because they learn something. But people who go to hell can't learn anything. They simply suffer the wrath of God in the greatest pain imaginable without end?

Why is it more loving and more justified to send people to eternal agony rather than cause them to cease to exist forever? Especially if they couldn't see the future to know they'd end up in hell?

Do we deserve hell because we've sinned against a sinless God and therefore commit a crime of infinite gravity? Well can a sinless father torture his son because he stole a pencil for the first time and lock him in a torture chamber for the rest of his days? Worst part is, the son was told by another kid at school that his father would do this and he didn't believe him. So obviously, this would be an atrocity if the sinless father ever did this to his son. So would an act like stealing a pencil for the first time, subject us to eternal torture forever?

People react to incentives. Here you can heaven if you believe in God. "Ok, that sounds nice." Here, you can have hell if you disbelieve in God "oh that sounds painful and scary, I'd better believe in God so I don't get burned alive the rest of my days." It's bullying and fear-mongering. Imagine if you were part of the mafia. The boss says that you can either go out on a hit and go on vacation to your favorite spot forever, or don't and be kept alive in a torture chamber for as long as you live.

Who is God supposed to be? According to christians he is the pinnacle of love and justice. Does anything I've just written sound like love and justice to you? Maybe if we changed the definition of love and justice. Especially when a God such as this wouldn't make his existence known until it's too late for the people who didn't believe in Christian hearsay. This conception of God sounds straight out of the Middle Ages when corrupt religious leaders used to torture and burn people alive for their sins.

So no, we don't deserve hell christians. If you still think we do, place your hand on a hot stove for 10 seconds the next time you steal a pencil and tell me if you think that's what you deserved. Do it in the name of empathy.

You sound very frustrated, I can relate, I would debate you on this, but this is going to take a while to grasp. I know how you feel cuz I as a Christian pretty much said the same things you say now. Maybe we can talk about it in a PM? This is g oing to take hours
GodChoosesLife
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8/14/2014 1:01:38 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/14/2014 12:56:08 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 8/14/2014 12:51:06 PM, GodChoosesLife wrote:
At 8/14/2014 12:49:49 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 8/14/2014 12:43:38 PM, GodChoosesLife wrote:
So, should crime be unjustified for everyone?

Do you think that a thief should get less punishment than a murderer?

Answer my question first and I'll answer yours :)

Yes I believe everyone deserves justice. Infinite torture is not justice.

Torture? How do you consider hell, torture?

I think both thief and murderer should be dealt with according to their crimes whether equal or not, just as long as justice is served.
Better than deserved, as ALWAYS.
"The strongest principle of growth lies in human choices."
"The Lord doesn't promise us a perfect life that is free of problems, but he does promise that He'll get us through anything." ~SweeTea
"Good Times" ~ Max
"If Jesus isn't in heaven, then it's not heaven; instead, it's hell." ~anonymous
"Suffering is unimaginably confusing, but it's a way to be drawn closer to God" ~Me
"Tell me what consumes your heart most, and I'll tell you who your God is." ~Dad
Benshapiro
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8/14/2014 1:03:12 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/14/2014 1:01:38 PM, GodChoosesLife wrote:
At 8/14/2014 12:56:08 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 8/14/2014 12:51:06 PM, GodChoosesLife wrote:
At 8/14/2014 12:49:49 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 8/14/2014 12:43:38 PM, GodChoosesLife wrote:
So, should crime be unjustified for everyone?

Do you think that a thief should get less punishment than a murderer?

Answer my question first and I'll answer yours :)

Yes I believe everyone deserves justice. Infinite torture is not justice.

Torture? How do you consider hell, torture?

I think both thief and murderer should be dealt with according to their crimes whether equal or not, just as long as justice is served.

What do you believe hell is?