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Paradox of God

AlternativeDavid
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8/16/2014 9:58:16 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Psalm 147:5 goes states that "Great is our Lord and mighty in power; his understanding has no limit." (omniscience).

Mathew 19:26 states "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible." (omnipotence).

By these we can determine that the Bible defines God as omnipotent and omniscient. However, one cannot be omnipotent and omniscient. The reason being that if you know the future, you are powerless to change it. Therefore God cannot be omniscient and omnipotent at the same time.

Can anybody disprove this paradox?
celestialtorahteacher
Posts: 1,369
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8/16/2014 10:09:47 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/16/2014 9:58:16 PM, AlternativeDavid wrote:
Psalm 147:5 goes states that "Great is our Lord and mighty in power; his understanding has no limit." (omniscience).

Mathew 19:26 states "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible." (omnipotence).

By these we can determine that the Bible defines God as omnipotent and omniscient. However, one cannot be omnipotent and omniscient. The reason being that if you know the future, you are powerless to change it. Therefore God cannot be omniscient and omnipotent at the same time.

Can anybody disprove this paradox?

It's a non-sequeter. Your "reason being.."etc, doesn't follow logically from omipotence and omniscience. Why would one "future" be locked in by an omnipotent omniscient God. That puts a "Future" more powerful than omnipotent God. Here's another way of looking at it: You rent a dvd and a fast-forward to the end. You know the end of the story. You don't like it. You put that dvd away and select another one. The dvd doesn't make the decisions.
AlternativeDavid
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8/16/2014 10:14:15 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
I don't understand your reasoning. He is able to change the future, but he also knows that he will change the future. He also knows exactly how he will do it. He cannot change the future because he knows he will change it. Therefore he is powerless to change the future.
Beastt
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8/16/2014 10:14:52 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/16/2014 10:09:47 PM, celestialtorahteacher wrote:
At 8/16/2014 9:58:16 PM, AlternativeDavid wrote:
Psalm 147:5 goes states that "Great is our Lord and mighty in power; his understanding has no limit." (omniscience).

Mathew 19:26 states "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible." (omnipotence).

By these we can determine that the Bible defines God as omnipotent and omniscient. However, one cannot be omnipotent and omniscient. The reason being that if you know the future, you are powerless to change it. Therefore God cannot be omniscient and omnipotent at the same time.

Can anybody disprove this paradox?

It's a non-sequeter. Your "reason being.."etc, doesn't follow logically from omipotence and omniscience. Why would one "future" be locked in by an omnipotent omniscient God. That puts a "Future" more powerful than omnipotent God. Here's another way of looking at it: You rent a dvd and a fast-forward to the end. You know the end of the story. You don't like it. You put that dvd away and select another one. The dvd doesn't make the decisions.

While a agree with you to a point, you haven't changed the ending of the DVD. I think the paradox fails. But it leads back to a more compelling paradox - that if God is displeased with anything, he could have changed it. In fact, if God resides outside of time (as is popular to conclude), he can change anything at any point. That suggests that God has no problem with anything that occurs, because if he didn't like it, he could change it. Therefore, all of the "evil" in the world occurs with God's approval.
"If we believe absurdities we shall commit atrocities." -- Voltaire
celestialtorahteacher
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8/16/2014 10:31:50 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
The movie analogy is more real to existence. The O.P. reasoning wants to say there's only one movie to be played and the logical paradox rests on that assumption but falls apart instantly when we add the choice of movies to be played.

I would not be a believer in God had I not experienced what the Hindus call "maya", the world as illusion, for three full days which changed everything in my former atheist worldview. Creation sits like a dvd tape being "played" and it's a brutal movie following the rise of Life through opposing forces forcing changes in responding material elements. There can be no Life without Death for example, so Creation, the Universe develops Life by struggle, we keep ourselves alive by waging battle continuously with elements trying to shut our systems down. Life in Creation is not an easy thing at all but it is the Way in which God has evolved Life into Intelligence--by struggle, by pain and misery overcome or not. That's how we got here and that's why "evil" exists in our world. This is a tape being played out. Here and there Messengers from our Future selves evolved into God at "the End of Days", are sent back down the time line to inform the prophets of future events and meaning of them. I am one of those prophesy bearer who was instructed by God through Ariel, the Angel of Peace, the Angel of Jerusalem, to tell you how the spiritual system works.
Beastt
Posts: 5,135
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8/16/2014 10:38:49 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/16/2014 10:31:50 PM, celestialtorahteacher wrote:
The movie analogy is more real to existence. The O.P. reasoning wants to say there's only one movie to be played and the logical paradox rests on that assumption but falls apart instantly when we add the choice of movies to be played.

I would not be a believer in God had I not experienced what the Hindus call "maya", the world as illusion, for three full days which changed everything in my former atheist worldview. Creation sits like a dvd tape being "played" and it's a brutal movie following the rise of Life through opposing forces forcing changes in responding material elements. There can be no Life without Death for example, so Creation, the Universe develops Life by struggle, we keep ourselves alive by waging battle continuously with elements trying to shut our systems down. Life in Creation is not an easy thing at all but it is the Way in which God has evolved Life into Intelligence--by struggle, by pain and misery overcome or not. That's how we got here and that's why "evil" exists in our world. This is a tape being played out. Here and there Messengers from our Future selves evolved into God at "the End of Days", are sent back down the time line to inform the prophets of future events and meaning of them. I am one of those prophesy bearer who was instructed by God through Ariel, the Angel of Peace, the Angel of Jerusalem, to tell you how the spiritual system works.

I'm always saddened when I see theists claiming to have been former atheists. In most cases, they're talking about a former disinterest in religion, rather than an informed and rationally selected disbelief. And while both qualify as atheism, that which is devoid of study is simply a default choice. And I would suggest that you lack the intellect to be an atheist out of choice when I hear you say things like "There can be no Life without Death".

You seen not to realize that this is pure horse-twaddle. It's the assumption you make because it is what you know. But life is the sustained chemical interaction in several specified regards and nothing about that suggests that it must end. In-other-words, nothing about life requires death. Everything you say from there after regarding God, and what you proclaim him to do is meaningless fiction. You have not a wisp of evidence for God, so everything you state upon leap-frogging his actual existence is meaningless rhetoric. You can't make credible claims about what an entity does, when you can't even show that entity to be real.
"If we believe absurdities we shall commit atrocities." -- Voltaire
BradK
Posts: 475
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8/16/2014 11:37:07 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/16/2014 9:58:16 PM, AlternativeDavid wrote:
Psalm 147:5 goes states that "Great is our Lord and mighty in power; his understanding has no limit." (omniscience).

Mathew 19:26 states "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible." (omnipotence).

By these we can determine that the Bible defines God as omnipotent and omniscient. However, one cannot be omnipotent and omniscient. The reason being that if you know the future, you are powerless to change it. Therefore God cannot be omniscient and omnipotent at the same time.

Can anybody disprove this paradox?

5d universe disproves the paradox.

Think of time like a youtube video slider. Instead of a slider you have a plane. Basically you can have free will if you have a 5d universe (3 spacial, 2 time dimensions). I'll do a flatlander analogy. Suppose a flatlander wants to get on the other side of a wall that has infinite length in one direction. He has to go right to get around it suppose. So you know he has no other way to get on the other side of the wall than to go to the right. But in 3 dimensions, he could hop the infinite fence at any point, or walk around it, or tunnel beneath it. So we can't predict how he will cross it in 3 dimensions, but we can predict how he will have to get to the other side in 2 dimensions. It's the same thing with time. If there is only a single time dimension, there is no way to get to the future other than "move the youtube slider" of the universe. But if it's a timeplane, not a timeline, then you can curve around. Suppose you want to get a ball from the top of a building to the bottom. In 1d time, whatever happens will happen, and an omniscient observer would know exactly what's going to happen. But in 2d time, there are infinite possibilities. Maybe the ball will be thrown off. Maybe someone will take it down the elevator. Maybe they'll fly it down in a helicopter. I strongly believe time is 2d because we have multiple choices to get us from the present to the future, and many different paths to walk through the plane to get to the future, rather than just let events unfold linearly in some predetermined path.

So that of course begs the question, how can anyone be omniscient if time is a plane, not a line? It's like trying to predict how the flatlander would get across our semi-infinite line if he could abuse the 3rd dimension to do so. At best I think omniscience would mean "knowing all infinity possibilities", but of course it's impossible to know which one will be carried out. If the omniscient person knew the "timepath" we would walk across the timeplane, then it would have to be unchangeable for it to be the correct timepath prediction. But of course that actually doesn't resolve the paradox because he'd still be powerless to change our timepath. I guess unless he is in full control, and we are not, in which case we would basically be god's puppets. But then he's making all the decisions about the future and he could change them if he wants right?

---

It seems like the paradox occurs because in order to predict the future, the future has to be unchangeable. (But the future isn't unchangeable). If the future is unchangeable there's no free will and that contradicts the whole idea of god anyways (the whole man having free will thing). If the future is changeable that also contradicts god because he can't predict it.
Gaming_Debater
Posts: 233
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8/16/2014 11:38:39 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/16/2014 9:58:16 PM, AlternativeDavid wrote:
Psalm 147:5 goes states that "Great is our Lord and mighty in power; his understanding has no limit." (omniscience).

Mathew 19:26 states "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible." (omnipotence).

By these we can determine that the Bible defines God as omnipotent and omniscient. However, one cannot be omnipotent and omniscient. The reason being that if you know the future, you are powerless to change it. Therefore God cannot be omniscient and omnipotent at the same time.

first of all, you have given no evidence to show that you are powerless to change the future if you know it. Secondly, even if you do have evidence to support such a claim, God is divine and therefore not subject to human limits. I argue against it with this rebuttal:

P1: if God is only omnipotent to begin with, he should be able to make himself all-knowing

P2: If God is only omniscient at first, he should know how to make himself all-powerful in an instant.

C1: therefore God can be both all-knowing and all-powerful at the same time and thus always knowing the future and never being powerless to change it.

Support of P1:

If He started out as all-powerful but not omniscient, He should have been able to figure out that He was omnipotent, thus wanting to know what his universe was like as a motive for making Himself almighty.

Support of premise 2:

if He is omniscient, He knows everything, including how to make Himself omnipotent in an instant and that it is the way to change the future. Need I say more?

Your argument is fallacious.
BradK
Posts: 475
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8/16/2014 11:46:30 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/16/2014 11:38:39 PM, Gaming_Debater wrote:
At 8/16/2014 9:58:16 PM, AlternativeDavid wrote:
Psalm 147:5 goes states that "Great is our Lord and mighty in power; his understanding has no limit." (omniscience).

Mathew 19:26 states "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible." (omnipotence).

By these we can determine that the Bible defines God as omnipotent and omniscient. However, one cannot be omnipotent and omniscient. The reason being that if you know the future, you are powerless to change it. Therefore God cannot be omniscient and omnipotent at the same time.

first of all, you have given no evidence to show that you are powerless to change the future if you know it. Secondly, even if you do have evidence to support such a claim, God is divine and therefore not subject to human limits. I argue against it with this rebuttal:

P1: if God is only omnipotent to begin with, he should be able to make himself all-knowing

P2: If God is only omniscient at first, he should know how to make himself all-powerful in an instant.

C1: therefore God can be both all-knowing and all-powerful at the same time and thus always knowing the future and never being powerless to change it.

Support of P1:

If He started out as all-powerful but not omniscient, He should have been able to figure out that He was omnipotent, thus wanting to know what his universe was like as a motive for making Himself almighty.


Support of premise 2:

if He is omniscient, He knows everything, including how to make Himself omnipotent in an instant and that it is the way to change the future. Need I say more?

Your argument is fallacious.

P2 is no good because knowing how to do something doesn't mean you have the resources to do it. For example I know that removing a proton, neutron and electron from a helium atom turns it into a hydrogen atom. Doesn't mean I'm automatically capable of doing that.
annanicole
Posts: 19,787
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8/17/2014 12:47:44 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/16/2014 10:38:49 PM, Beastt wrote:
At 8/16/2014 10:31:50 PM, celestialtorahteacher wrote:
The movie analogy is more real to existence. The O.P. reasoning wants to say there's only one movie to be played and the logical paradox rests on that assumption but falls apart instantly when we add the choice of movies to be played.

I would not be a believer in God had I not experienced what the Hindus call "maya", the world as illusion, for three full days which changed everything in my former atheist worldview. Creation sits like a dvd tape being "played" and it's a brutal movie following the rise of Life through opposing forces forcing changes in responding material elements. There can be no Life without Death for example, so Creation, the Universe develops Life by struggle, we keep ourselves alive by waging battle continuously with elements trying to shut our systems down. Life in Creation is not an easy thing at all but it is the Way in which God has evolved Life into Intelligence--by struggle, by pain and misery overcome or not. That's how we got here and that's why "evil" exists in our world. This is a tape being played out. Here and there Messengers from our Future selves evolved into God at "the End of Days", are sent back down the time line to inform the prophets of future events and meaning of them. I am one of those prophesy bearer who was instructed by God through Ariel, the Angel of Peace, the Angel of Jerusalem, to tell you how the spiritual system works.

I'm always saddened when I see theists claiming to have been former atheists. In most cases, they're talking about a former disinterest in religion, rather than an informed and rationally selected disbelief. And while both qualify as atheism, that which is devoid of study is simply a default choice. And I would suggest that you lack the intellect to be an atheist out of choice when I hear you say things like "There can be no Life without Death".

LOL @ that last sentence
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
Beastt
Posts: 5,135
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8/17/2014 2:12:42 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/17/2014 12:47:44 AM, annanicole wrote:
At 8/16/2014 10:38:49 PM, Beastt wrote:
At 8/16/2014 10:31:50 PM, celestialtorahteacher wrote:
The movie analogy is more real to existence. The O.P. reasoning wants to say there's only one movie to be played and the logical paradox rests on that assumption but falls apart instantly when we add the choice of movies to be played.

I would not be a believer in God had I not experienced what the Hindus call "maya", the world as illusion, for three full days which changed everything in my former atheist worldview. Creation sits like a dvd tape being "played" and it's a brutal movie following the rise of Life through opposing forces forcing changes in responding material elements. There can be no Life without Death for example, so Creation, the Universe develops Life by struggle, we keep ourselves alive by waging battle continuously with elements trying to shut our systems down. Life in Creation is not an easy thing at all but it is the Way in which God has evolved Life into Intelligence--by struggle, by pain and misery overcome or not. That's how we got here and that's why "evil" exists in our world. This is a tape being played out. Here and there Messengers from our Future selves evolved into God at "the End of Days", are sent back down the time line to inform the prophets of future events and meaning of them. I am one of those prophesy bearer who was instructed by God through Ariel, the Angel of Peace, the Angel of Jerusalem, to tell you how the spiritual system works.

I'm always saddened when I see theists claiming to have been former atheists. In most cases, they're talking about a former disinterest in religion, rather than an informed and rationally selected disbelief. And while both qualify as atheism, that which is devoid of study is simply a default choice. And I would suggest that you lack the intellect to be an atheist out of choice when I hear you say things like "There can be no Life without Death".

LOL @ that last sentence

Your feigned laughter is your own ignorance. Define "life", Anna.
"If we believe absurdities we shall commit atrocities." -- Voltaire
annanicole
Posts: 19,787
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8/17/2014 3:43:44 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/17/2014 2:12:42 AM, Beastt wrote:
At 8/17/2014 12:47:44 AM, annanicole wrote:
At 8/16/2014 10:38:49 PM, Beastt wrote:
At 8/16/2014 10:31:50 PM, celestialtorahteacher wrote:
The movie analogy is more real to existence. The O.P. reasoning wants to say there's only one movie to be played and the logical paradox rests on that assumption but falls apart instantly when we add the choice of movies to be played.

I would not be a believer in God had I not experienced what the Hindus call "maya", the world as illusion, for three full days which changed everything in my former atheist worldview. Creation sits like a dvd tape being "played" and it's a brutal movie following the rise of Life through opposing forces forcing changes in responding material elements. There can be no Life without Death for example, so Creation, the Universe develops Life by struggle, we keep ourselves alive by waging battle continuously with elements trying to shut our systems down. Life in Creation is not an easy thing at all but it is the Way in which God has evolved Life into Intelligence--by struggle, by pain and misery overcome or not. That's how we got here and that's why "evil" exists in our world. This is a tape being played out. Here and there Messengers from our Future selves evolved into God at "the End of Days", are sent back down the time line to inform the prophets of future events and meaning of them. I am one of those prophesy bearer who was instructed by God through Ariel, the Angel of Peace, the Angel of Jerusalem, to tell you how the spiritual system works.

I'm always saddened when I see theists claiming to have been former atheists. In most cases, they're talking about a former disinterest in religion, rather than an informed and rationally selected disbelief. And while both qualify as atheism, that which is devoid of study is simply a default choice. And I would suggest that you lack the intellect to be an atheist out of choice when I hear you say things like "There can be no Life without Death".

LOL @ that last sentence

Your feigned laughter is your own ignorance. Define "life", Anna.

Oh, it wasn't feigned.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
Gaming_Debater
Posts: 233
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8/17/2014 8:00:21 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/16/2014 11:46:30 PM, BradK wrote:
At 8/16/2014 11:38:39 PM, Gaming_Debater wrote:
At 8/16/2014 9:58:16 PM, AlternativeDavid wrote:
Psalm 147:5 goes states that "Great is our Lord and mighty in power; his understanding has no limit." (omniscience).

Mathew 19:26 states "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible." (omnipotence).

By these we can determine that the Bible defines God as omnipotent and omniscient. However, one cannot be omnipotent and omniscient. The reason being that if you know the future, you are powerless to change it. Therefore God cannot be omniscient and omnipotent at the same time.

first of all, you have given no evidence to show that you are powerless to change the future if you know it. Secondly, even if you do have evidence to support such a claim, God is divine and therefore not subject to human limits. I argue against it with this rebuttal:

P1: if God is only omnipotent to begin with, he should be able to make himself all-knowing

P2: If God is only omniscient at first, he should know how to make himself all-powerful in an instant.

C1: therefore God can be both all-knowing and all-powerful at the same time and thus always knowing the future and never being powerless to change it.

Support of P1:

If He started out as all-powerful but not omniscient, He should have been able to figure out that He was omnipotent, thus wanting to know what his universe was like as a motive for making Himself almighty.


Support of premise 2:

if He is omniscient, He knows everything, including how to make Himself omnipotent in an instant and that it is the way to change the future. Need I say more?

Your argument is fallacious.

P2 is no good because knowing how to do something doesn't mean you have the resources to do it. For example I know that removing a proton, neutron and electron from a helium atom turns it into a hydrogen atom. Doesn't mean I'm automatically capable of doing that.

actually, God would have something starting out only as omniscient and that's the quantum vacuum, which I'm pretty sure isn't "nothing." You also have not adressed my other points.
Double_R
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8/17/2014 8:31:01 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
The paradox is perfectly valid, I see nothing but failed attempts to disprove it. Let's try rephrasing it.

If you are both omniscient and omniscient then you must both know the future and be able to change it. That is a contradiction.

Lets think of time as a straight line and call it timeline A. God knows everything about timeline A. But you say God has the power to change it and go with timeline B. If that is the case then if God is all knowing, he would have already known that timeline B would be the actual line. Therefore timeline A was never an option.

The paradox is in the fact that being all powerful requires the ability to make decisions. Making a decision by definition requires you to go from a state of being undecided to a state of being decided. Being in a state of undecided contradicts the definition of all knowing. You can be one or the other, not both.
AlternativeDavid
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8/17/2014 12:11:38 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/17/2014 8:31:01 AM, Double_R wrote:
The paradox is perfectly valid, I see nothing but failed attempts to disprove it. Let's try rephrasing it.

If you are both omniscient and omniscient then you must both know the future and be able to change it. That is a contradiction.

Lets think of time as a straight line and call it timeline A. God knows everything about timeline A. But you say God has the power to change it and go with timeline B. If that is the case then if God is all knowing, he would have already known that timeline B would be the actual line. Therefore timeline A was never an option.

The paradox is in the fact that being all powerful requires the ability to make decisions. Making a decision by definition requires you to go from a state of being undecided to a state of being decided. Being in a state of undecided contradicts the definition of all knowing. You can be one or the other, not both.

I think they're making failed attempts because they refuse to disbelieve in their god, no matter how implausible his existence is. What's the point of having a view point that can't be changed?
MadCornishBiker
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8/17/2014 3:19:10 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/16/2014 9:58:16 PM, AlternativeDavid wrote:
Psalm 147:5 goes states that "Great is our Lord and mighty in power; his understanding has no limit." (omniscience).

Mathew 19:26 states "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible." (omnipotence).

By these we can determine that the Bible defines God as omnipotent and omniscient. However, one cannot be omnipotent and omniscient. The reason being that if you know the future, you are powerless to change it. Therefore God cannot be omniscient and omnipotent at the same time.

Can anybody disprove this paradox?

O don't even see that it is a paradox, because God can see all the possible futures and tweak things to bring about the one he wants. He always has, and always will.

That's why his prophecies cannot fail, because he makes sure they don't.

Cheating? Some would say so, but it sure shows how powerful he really is.

The paradox lies simply in your understanding or lack of it. We change the future every day, by our every action because the future is no laid out before us as an immutable.
AlternativeDavid
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8/17/2014 3:23:24 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/17/2014 3:19:10 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 8/16/2014 9:58:16 PM, AlternativeDavid wrote:
Psalm 147:5 goes states that "Great is our Lord and mighty in power; his understanding has no limit." (omniscience).

Mathew 19:26 states "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible." (omnipotence).

By these we can determine that the Bible defines God as omnipotent and omniscient. However, one cannot be omnipotent and omniscient. The reason being that if you know the future, you are powerless to change it. Therefore God cannot be omniscient and omnipotent at the same time.

Can anybody disprove this paradox?

O don't even see that it is a paradox, because God can see all the possible futures and tweak things to bring about the one he wants. He always has, and always will.

That's why his prophecies cannot fail, because he makes sure they don't.

Cheating? Some would say so, but it sure shows how powerful he really is.

The paradox lies simply in your understanding or lack of it. We change the future every day, by our every action because the future is no laid out before us as an immutable.

The fact is, he knows he will change the future, therefore he cannot change the future. He knows everything he does before he does it, and does not have the power to do something he cannot predict.
celestialtorahteacher
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8/17/2014 5:26:14 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Does not apply to a universe that is known to God from beginning to end. You're whole thesis is time bound which God isn't.
Double_R
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8/17/2014 6:31:06 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/17/2014 5:26:14 PM, celestialtorahteacher wrote:
Does not apply to a universe that is known to God from beginning to end. You're whole thesis is time bound which God isn't.

Can God go from a state of being undecided to a state of being decided?
AlternativeDavid
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8/17/2014 8:11:18 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/17/2014 5:27:45 PM, celestialtorahteacher wrote:
Always takes a believer to correct the illogical thinking of atheists.

Really? Illogical thinking? What about the person that just claimed that God exists outside of time and space. How can you prove that?
bulproof
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8/17/2014 10:36:47 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/17/2014 3:19:10 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 8/16/2014 9:58:16 PM, AlternativeDavid wrote:
Psalm 147:5 goes states that "Great is our Lord and mighty in power; his understanding has no limit." (omniscience).

Mathew 19:26 states "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible." (omnipotence).

By these we can determine that the Bible defines God as omnipotent and omniscient. However, one cannot be omnipotent and omniscient. The reason being that if you know the future, you are powerless to change it. Therefore God cannot be omniscient and omnipotent at the same time.

Can anybody disprove this paradox?

O don't even see that it is a paradox, because God can see all the possible futures and tweak things to bring about the one he wants. He always has, and always will.
Well he's been doing a piss poor job so far.
Maybe omnistupid is his greatest attribute.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
MadCornishBiker
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8/18/2014 7:35:40 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/17/2014 10:36:47 PM, bulproof wrote:
At 8/17/2014 3:19:10 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 8/16/2014 9:58:16 PM, AlternativeDavid wrote:
Psalm 147:5 goes states that "Great is our Lord and mighty in power; his understanding has no limit." (omniscience).

Mathew 19:26 states "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible." (omnipotence).

By these we can determine that the Bible defines God as omnipotent and omniscient. However, one cannot be omnipotent and omniscient. The reason being that if you know the future, you are powerless to change it. Therefore God cannot be omniscient and omnipotent at the same time.

Can anybody disprove this paradox?

O don't even see that it is a paradox, because God can see all the possible futures and tweak things to bring about the one he wants. He always has, and always will.
Well he's been doing a piss poor job so far.
Maybe omnistupid is his greatest attribute.

If he had been doing a poor job so far you or I would not even have got to exist. You are judging a part completed plan before it is due to be completed.

However it remains true that every trick Satan has pulled, God has countered, it is just that people like you are too dumb to recognise that.

The time to judge his plan will be when it has been brought to final fulfillment, which the record shows is inevitable.
bulproof
Posts: 25,250
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8/18/2014 7:58:08 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/18/2014 7:35:40 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 8/17/2014 10:36:47 PM, bulproof wrote:
At 8/17/2014 3:19:10 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 8/16/2014 9:58:16 PM, AlternativeDavid wrote:
Psalm 147:5 goes states that "Great is our Lord and mighty in power; his understanding has no limit." (omniscience).

Mathew 19:26 states "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible." (omnipotence).

By these we can determine that the Bible defines God as omnipotent and omniscient. However, one cannot be omnipotent and omniscient. The reason being that if you know the future, you are powerless to change it. Therefore God cannot be omniscient and omnipotent at the same time.

Can anybody disprove this paradox?

O don't even see that it is a paradox, because God can see all the possible futures and tweak things to bring about the one he wants. He always has, and always will.
Well he's been doing a piss poor job so far.
Maybe omnistupid is his greatest attribute.

If he had been doing a poor job so far you or I would not even have got to exist. You are judging a part completed plan before it is due to be completed.

However it remains true that every trick Satan has pulled, God has countered, it is just that people like you are too dumb to recognise that.

The time to judge his plan will be when it has been brought to final fulfillment, which the record shows is inevitable.

A couple of billion yrs from now. Good luck with that.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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8/18/2014 8:42:08 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/18/2014 7:58:08 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 8/18/2014 7:35:40 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 8/17/2014 10:36:47 PM, bulproof wrote:
At 8/17/2014 3:19:10 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 8/16/2014 9:58:16 PM, AlternativeDavid wrote:
Psalm 147:5 goes states that "Great is our Lord and mighty in power; his understanding has no limit." (omniscience).

Mathew 19:26 states "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible." (omnipotence).

By these we can determine that the Bible defines God as omnipotent and omniscient. However, one cannot be omnipotent and omniscient. The reason being that if you know the future, you are powerless to change it. Therefore God cannot be omniscient and omnipotent at the same time.

Can anybody disprove this paradox?

O don't even see that it is a paradox, because God can see all the possible futures and tweak things to bring about the one he wants. He always has, and always will.
Well he's been doing a piss poor job so far.
Maybe omnistupid is his greatest attribute.

If he had been doing a poor job so far you or I would not even have got to exist. You are judging a part completed plan before it is due to be completed.

However it remains true that every trick Satan has pulled, God has countered, it is just that people like you are too dumb to recognise that.

The time to judge his plan will be when it has been brought to final fulfillment, which the record shows is inevitable.

A couple of billion yrs from now. Good luck with that.

Don't need luck, and if God waits that long there won't be anything left to judge, lol. We are, with Satan's urging, doing far too good a job of pushing this planet down the road to destruction.
Dragonfang
Posts: 1,122
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8/18/2014 10:01:02 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
Foreknowledge does not imply causality. How is this so called paradox related to whether an omniscient God exists or not?

Logically, God have no need to change his decision, as that is rooted in either ignorance or mistake, which are contradictory with the definition.
DPMartin
Posts: 1,096
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8/18/2014 10:05:17 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/16/2014 9:58:16 PM, AlternativeDavid wrote:
Psalm 147:5 goes states that "Great is our Lord and mighty in power; his understanding has no limit." (omniscience).

Mathew 19:26 states "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible." (omnipotence).

By these we can determine that the Bible defines God as omnipotent and omniscient. However, one cannot be omnipotent and omniscient. The reason being that if you know the future, you are powerless to change it. Therefore God cannot be omniscient and omnipotent at the same time.

Can anybody disprove this paradox?

But then there is the other side of that coin. By being all powerful whatever He says, He will do or will be, will be. If He says all who live below the equator will be blue skinned in two weeks, then who"s going to stop it? Therefore He also knows all who live below the equator will be blue skinned in two weeks. A feeble example, but how it is. Hence let there be light, and there was light. Knowledge and power in the same Voice or Word. Almost sounds like He"s cheating, but He"s God we"re not.

As far as the future locked, well God"s good for His Word. Therefore once given He will not retract it, and it will be fulfilled, unless there is a plea for Mercy. In the view of the God of Israel all of creation rests on His Word.
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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8/18/2014 10:25:55 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/18/2014 10:05:17 AM, DPMartin wrote:
At 8/16/2014 9:58:16 PM, AlternativeDavid wrote:
Psalm 147:5 goes states that "Great is our Lord and mighty in power; his understanding has no limit." (omniscience).

Mathew 19:26 states "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible." (omnipotence).

By these we can determine that the Bible defines God as omnipotent and omniscient. However, one cannot be omnipotent and omniscient. The reason being that if you know the future, you are powerless to change it. Therefore God cannot be omniscient and omnipotent at the same time.

Can anybody disprove this paradox?

But then there is the other side of that coin. By being all powerful whatever He says, He will do or will be, will be. If He says all who live below the equator will be blue skinned in two weeks, then who"s going to stop it? Therefore He also knows all who live below the equator will be blue skinned in two weeks. A feeble example, but how it is. Hence let there be light, and there was light. Knowledge and power in the same Voice or Word. Almost sounds like He"s cheating, but He"s God we"re not.

As far as the future locked, well God"s good for His Word. Therefore once given He will not retract it, and it will be fulfilled, unless there is a plea for Mercy. In the view of the God of Israel all of creation rests on His Word.

Yes, I agree it seems like cheating, but as you say, he is God and therefore has the right to do what he wants with his creation, and if God didn't "cheat" in his dealings with Satan A) by limiting Satans powers to the extent that he cannot materialise or directly kill a human and B) preventing Satan from "road blocking" his plan, then we would none of us exist.
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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8/18/2014 10:27:37 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/18/2014 10:01:02 AM, Dragonfang wrote:
Foreknowledge does not imply causality. How is this so called paradox related to whether an omniscient God exists or not?


Logically, God have no need to change his decision, as that is rooted in either ignorance or mistake, which are contradictory with the definition.

God has never changed his decision. Hower he has changed the outcome of actions carried out by Satan, the demons and men, which could have affected his plan. That is how he "changes" the future from one path to another.
AlternativeDavid
Posts: 13
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8/18/2014 11:02:09 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/18/2014 10:05:17 AM, DPMartin wrote:
At 8/16/2014 9:58:16 PM, AlternativeDavid wrote:
Psalm 147:5 goes states that "Great is our Lord and mighty in power; his understanding has no limit." (omniscience).

Mathew 19:26 states "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible." (omnipotence).

By these we can determine that the Bible defines God as omnipotent and omniscient. However, one cannot be omnipotent and omniscient. The reason being that if you know the future, you are powerless to change it. Therefore God cannot be omniscient and omnipotent at the same time.

Can anybody disprove this paradox?

But then there is the other side of that coin. By being all powerful whatever He says, He will do or will be, will be. If He says all who live below the equator will be blue skinned in two weeks, then who"s going to stop it? Therefore He also knows all who live below the equator will be blue skinned in two weeks. A feeble example, but how it is. Hence let there be light, and there was light. Knowledge and power in the same Voice or Word. Almost sounds like He"s cheating, but He"s God we"re not.

As far as the future locked, well God"s good for His Word. Therefore once given He will not retract it, and it will be fulfilled, unless there is a plea for Mercy. In the view of the God of Israel all of creation rests on His Word.

The problem here is that you don't understand the paradox. The paradox is not about whether or not he has the power to change the path of the future.

Let me reiterate.

As he is omniscient he knows he will change the future ahead of time. He knows why he will change it and what he will change it to. He doesn't have the power to change the future in a way that he cannot predict. Therefore he can't be omnipotent and omniscient at the same time.