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The Imperfect Whole

s-anthony
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8/19/2014 10:19:44 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
"How can I be substantial if I do not cast a shadow? I must have a dark side also If I am to be whole." - Carl Jung

The dark side of ourselves is one in which we all suppress. Even the most evil among us suppresses his, or her, darkness; for, darkness is that part of ourselves in which we don't like.

Even though we live in a society that has its likes and dislikes, we as individuals have our own set of values. Things most valuable are those things we set as ornaments about ourselves; things we least value are those things we hide in the closet or bury out back.

However, both the good and the bad, the cherished and the abhorred are all apart of our lives. And, not until we realize, like everything else, our imperfections are we complete.
DPMartin
Posts: 1,096
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8/19/2014 3:32:06 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Though this might be a ok theme, for a song, people valuing is no revelation. And people embracing and discarding is done even at the diner table. It is what is valued, that makes the difference, and the fulfillment therein makes perfect, according to what is valued. A model values what? And seeks excellence therein to be fulfilled in what is valued.

Therefore, what is truly valuable? Is it because it"s desired? Is it because it is desired by others? Or is what is valuable, is to be desired? And in what circumstances is what valuable, that may change all of the above.

And as far as your darkness theory, what if you abhorred the light?
s-anthony
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8/19/2014 4:31:37 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/19/2014 3:32:06 PM, DPMartin wrote:
Though this might be a ok theme, for a song, people valuing is no revelation. And people embracing and discarding is done even at the diner table. It is what is valued, that makes the difference, and the fulfillment therein makes perfect, according to what is valued. A model values what? And seeks excellence therein to be fulfilled in what is valued.

Yet, even in seeking to fulfill our dreams, we must neglect or devalue other things in our lives that hold significance. It is our inability to reconcile conflicting desires that at times makes us feel broken and incomplete.



Therefore, what is truly valuable? Is it because it"s desired? Is it because it is desired by others? Or is what is valuable, is to be desired? And in what circumstances is what valuable, that may change all of the above.

Value is estimated by the appraiser. A thing has no value apart from a conscious appraisal. It is the subject that objectifies reality.

The individual has values and the group has values the individual shares.

Without the appraiser and the thing's being appraised, there is no appraisal; both are needed.


And as far as your darkness theory, what if you abhorred the light?

I do, and so does everyone else. We both cherish light and abhor darkness and abhor light and cherish darkness. Darkness and light are both one yet divided.
matt.mcguire88
Posts: 1,137
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8/19/2014 4:43:09 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/19/2014 10:19:44 AM, s-anthony wrote:
"How can I be substantial if I do not cast a shadow? I must have a dark side also If I am to be whole." - Carl Jung


The dark side of ourselves is one in which we all suppress. Even the most evil among us suppresses his, or her, darkness; for, darkness is that part of ourselves in which we don't like.

Even though we live in a society that has its likes and dislikes, we as individuals have our own set of values. Things most valuable are those things we set as ornaments about ourselves; things we least value are those things we hide in the closet or bury out back.

However, both the good and the bad, the cherished and the abhorred are all apart of our lives. And, not until we realize, like everything else, our imperfections are we complete.

Not to be a smart a$$, but I'm curious as to why you posted this in the religion section, what about God would you like to express through this?
matt.mcguire88
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8/19/2014 4:57:18 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
I would just like to understand the intent and what you would like to resolve, basically to understand your point better.
DPMartin
Posts: 1,096
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8/19/2014 5:10:49 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/19/2014 4:31:37 PM, s-anthony wrote:
At 8/19/2014 3:32:06 PM, DPMartin wrote:
Yet, even in seeking to fulfill our dreams, we must neglect or devalue other things in our lives that hold significance. It is our inability to reconcile conflicting desires that at times makes us feel broken and incomplete.

Value is estimated by the appraiser. A thing has no value apart from a conscious appraisal. It is the subject that objectifies reality.

The individual has values and the group has values the individual shares.

Without the appraiser and the thing's being appraised, there is no appraisal; both are needed.

I do, and so does everyone else. We both cherish light and abhor darkness and abhor light and cherish darkness. Darkness and light are both one yet divided.

We value what we value. If something holds significance, then you value it. Again what is truly valuable, and what is valued maybe the problem there.

An appraiser may tell another what others value, but the true value is what one will, or has invested. Appraisers aren"t investors.

Doesn"t matter what someone says a car is worth, it"s what one will pay for it, or not pay for it. One doesn"t need an appraiser for that.

And don"t fool yourself, darkness has no place in the Light. Thereof if one is in the Light......
s-anthony
Posts: 2,582
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8/19/2014 6:28:01 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/19/2014 4:43:09 PM, matt.mcguire88 wrote:
At 8/19/2014 10:19:44 AM, s-anthony wrote:
"How can I be substantial if I do not cast a shadow? I must have a dark side also If I am to be whole." - Carl Jung


The dark side of ourselves is one in which we all suppress. Even the most evil among us suppresses his, or her, darkness; for, darkness is that part of ourselves in which we don't like.

Even though we live in a society that has its likes and dislikes, we as individuals have our own set of values. Things most valuable are those things we set as ornaments about ourselves; things we least value are those things we hide in the closet or bury out back.

However, both the good and the bad, the cherished and the abhorred are all apart of our lives. And, not until we realize, like everything else, our imperfections are we complete.

Not to be a smart a$$, but I'm curious as to why you posted this in the religion section, what about God would you like to express through this?

God is not the only aspect of religion. The discussion is on the nature of good and evil, which is an integral part of religion.
s-anthony
Posts: 2,582
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8/19/2014 6:32:06 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/19/2014 4:57:18 PM, matt.mcguire88 wrote:
I would just like to understand the intent and what you would like to resolve, basically to understand your point better.

My point is good and evil are essential to one's identity and should be treated as such.
matt.mcguire88
Posts: 1,137
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8/19/2014 6:58:05 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/19/2014 6:28:01 PM, s-anthony wrote:
At 8/19/2014 4:43:09 PM, matt.mcguire88 wrote:
At 8/19/2014 10:19:44 AM, s-anthony wrote:
"How can I be substantial if I do not cast a shadow? I must have a dark side also If I am to be whole." - Carl Jung


The dark side of ourselves is one in which we all suppress. Even the most evil among us suppresses his, or her, darkness; for, darkness is that part of ourselves in which we don't like.

Even though we live in a society that has its likes and dislikes, we as individuals have our own set of values. Things most valuable are those things we set as ornaments about ourselves; things we least value are those things we hide in the closet or bury out back.

However, both the good and the bad, the cherished and the abhorred are all apart of our lives. And, not until we realize, like everything else, our imperfections are we complete.

Not to be a smart a$$, but I'm curious as to why you posted this in the religion section, what about God would you like to express through this?

God is not the only aspect of religion. The discussion is on the nature of good and evil, which is an integral part of religion.

Understood, so you believe in God then? because what is religion without God?

Yes, I agree with what you are saying about good and evil, I'm just interested in your personal views.
matt.mcguire88
Posts: 1,137
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8/19/2014 7:06:47 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/19/2014 6:32:06 PM, s-anthony wrote:
At 8/19/2014 4:57:18 PM, matt.mcguire88 wrote:
I would just like to understand the intent and what you would like to resolve, basically to understand your point better.

My point is good and evil are essential to one's identity and should be treated as such.

I would agree that they are essential to identify, but not necessarily does it have to be apart of us, as a Christian once we identify an evil or are convicted of something that is displeasing to God it is part of our nature to eliminate it, although with God as our source and strength we are free to move forward to change it.
s-anthony
Posts: 2,582
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8/19/2014 11:20:54 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/19/2014 5:10:49 PM, DPMartin wrote:
At 8/19/2014 4:31:37 PM, s-anthony wrote:
At 8/19/2014 3:32:06 PM, DPMartin wrote:
Yet, even in seeking to fulfill our dreams, we must neglect or devalue other things in our lives that hold significance. It is our inability to reconcile conflicting desires that at times makes us feel broken and incomplete.

Value is estimated by the appraiser. A thing has no value apart from a conscious appraisal. It is the subject that objectifies reality.

The individual has values and the group has values the individual shares.

Without the appraiser and the thing's being appraised, there is no appraisal; both are needed.

I do, and so does everyone else. We both cherish light and abhor darkness and abhor light and cherish darkness. Darkness and light are both one yet divided.

We value what we value. If something holds significance, then you value it. Again what is truly valuable, and what is valued maybe the problem there.

Correct. However, nothing has significance, alone. You say things have value, in and of themselves; however, value necessitates a relationship. A diamond is worthless, if no one wants it. Value is neither determined by the thing's being valued nor the appraiser, but it's determined by both.


An appraiser may tell another what others value, but the true value is what one will, or has invested. Appraisers aren"t investors.

An appraiser is anyone who puts a value, or appraisal, on anything.


Doesn"t matter what someone says a car is worth, it"s what one will pay for it, or not pay for it. One doesn"t need an appraiser for that.

And don"t fool yourself, darkness has no place in the Light. Thereof if one is in the Light......

Without darkness, there is no light. Darkness has its place, because of the light.
s-anthony
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8/19/2014 11:48:48 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/19/2014 7:06:47 PM, matt.mcguire88 wrote:
At 8/19/2014 6:32:06 PM, s-anthony wrote:
At 8/19/2014 4:57:18 PM, matt.mcguire88 wrote:
I would just like to understand the intent and what you would like to resolve, basically to understand your point better.

My point is good and evil are essential to one's identity and should be treated as such.

I would agree that they are essential to identify, but not necessarily does it have to be apart of us, as a Christian once we identify an evil or are convicted of something that is displeasing to God it is part of our nature to eliminate it, although with God as our source and strength we are free to move forward to change it.

How is it they are essential to identity but not necessarily apart of who we are? Are you trying to say we lose our identities, as we rid ourselves of evil?
matt.mcguire88
Posts: 1,137
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8/20/2014 4:31:39 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/19/2014 11:48:48 PM, s-anthony wrote:
At 8/19/2014 7:06:47 PM, matt.mcguire88 wrote:
At 8/19/2014 6:32:06 PM, s-anthony wrote:
At 8/19/2014 4:57:18 PM, matt.mcguire88 wrote:
I would just like to understand the intent and what you would like to resolve, basically to understand your point better.

My point is good and evil are essential to one's identity and should be treated as such.

I would agree that they are essential to identify, but not necessarily does it have to be apart of us, as a Christian once we identify an evil or are convicted of something that is displeasing to God it is part of our nature to eliminate it, although with God as our source and strength we are free to move forward to change it.

How is it they are essential to identity but not necessarily apart of who we are? Are you trying to say we lose our identities, as we rid ourselves of evil?

Evil is essential to identify to be uprooted, the more we fill our being with light (God) the more we expel darkness and deprive evil from this temple.
No we do not "lose" our identities we are essentially gaining them, God does not view evil and sin as our identity but as an indicator.
s-anthony
Posts: 2,582
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8/20/2014 9:57:32 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/20/2014 4:31:39 AM, matt.mcguire88 wrote:
At 8/19/2014 11:48:48 PM, s-anthony wrote:
At 8/19/2014 7:06:47 PM, matt.mcguire88 wrote:
At 8/19/2014 6:32:06 PM, s-anthony wrote:
At 8/19/2014 4:57:18 PM, matt.mcguire88 wrote:
I would just like to understand the intent and what you would like to resolve, basically to understand your point better.

My point is good and evil are essential to one's identity and should be treated as such.

I would agree that they are essential to identify, but not necessarily does it have to be apart of us, as a Christian once we identify an evil or are convicted of something that is displeasing to God it is part of our nature to eliminate it, although with God as our source and strength we are free to move forward to change it.

How is it they are essential to identity but not necessarily apart of who we are? Are you trying to say we lose our identities, as we rid ourselves of evil?

Evil is essential to identify to be uprooted, the more we fill our being with light (God) the more we expel darkness and deprive evil from this temple.
No we do not "lose" our identities we are essentially gaining them, God does not view evil and sin as our identity but as an indicator.

Ok. Let me make sure I'm understanding you. Is human nature sinful? If not, then, why would it be essential for us to uproot it? If we are by nature good, why would we need to fill ourselves with light and expel darkness? Since we are not identified as being sinners, then, why do we need to be saved from sin?
matt.mcguire88
Posts: 1,137
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8/20/2014 10:57:10 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/20/2014 9:57:32 AM, s-anthony wrote:
At 8/20/2014 4:31:39 AM, matt.mcguire88 wrote:
At 8/19/2014 11:48:48 PM, s-anthony wrote:
At 8/19/2014 7:06:47 PM, matt.mcguire88 wrote:
At 8/19/2014 6:32:06 PM, s-anthony wrote:
At 8/19/2014 4:57:18 PM, matt.mcguire88 wrote:
I would just like to understand the intent and what you would like to resolve, basically to understand your point better.

My point is good and evil are essential to one's identity and should be treated as such.

I would agree that they are essential to identify, but not necessarily does it have to be apart of us, as a Christian once we identify an evil or are convicted of something that is displeasing to God it is part of our nature to eliminate it, although with God as our source and strength we are free to move forward to change it.

How is it they are essential to identity but not necessarily apart of who we are? Are you trying to say we lose our identities, as we rid ourselves of evil?

Evil is essential to identify to be uprooted, the more we fill our being with light (God) the more we expel darkness and deprive evil from this temple.
No we do not "lose" our identities we are essentially gaining them, God does not view evil and sin as our identity but as an indicator.

Ok. Let me make sure I'm understanding you. Is human nature sinful? If not, then, why would it be essential for us to uproot it? If we are by nature good, why would we need to fill ourselves with light and expel darkness? Since we are not identified as being sinners, then, why do we need to be saved from sin?

I think we lost each other here a little, I thought we were at an agreement that our nature is both good and evil, so your question is confusing.

As a Christian and in my spiritual walk God reveals what needs to change (whatever that may be) and I obey, that area of darkness is now illuminated with light, evil is replaced with what God sees pleasing and as we expel these elements we are becoming like God (light), this brings our spirit in unity with God.
s-anthony
Posts: 2,582
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8/20/2014 2:21:02 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/20/2014 10:57:10 AM, matt.mcguire88 wrote:
At 8/20/2014 9:57:32 AM, s-anthony wrote:
At 8/20/2014 4:31:39 AM, matt.mcguire88 wrote:
At 8/19/2014 11:48:48 PM, s-anthony wrote:
At 8/19/2014 7:06:47 PM, matt.mcguire88 wrote:
At 8/19/2014 6:32:06 PM, s-anthony wrote:
At 8/19/2014 4:57:18 PM, matt.mcguire88 wrote:
I would just like to understand the intent and what you would like to resolve, basically to understand your point better.

My point is good and evil are essential to one's identity and should be treated as such.

I would agree that they are essential to identify, but not necessarily does it have to be apart of us, as a Christian once we identify an evil or are convicted of something that is displeasing to God it is part of our nature to eliminate it, although with God as our source and strength we are free to move forward to change it.

How is it they are essential to identity but not necessarily apart of who we are? Are you trying to say we lose our identities, as we rid ourselves of evil?

Evil is essential to identify to be uprooted, the more we fill our being with light (God) the more we expel darkness and deprive evil from this temple.
No we do not "lose" our identities we are essentially gaining them, God does not view evil and sin as our identity but as an indicator.

Ok. Let me make sure I'm understanding you. Is human nature sinful? If not, then, why would it be essential for us to uproot it? If we are by nature good, why would we need to fill ourselves with light and expel darkness? Since we are not identified as being sinners, then, why do we need to be saved from sin?

I think we lost each other here a little, I thought we were at an agreement that our nature is both good and evil, so your question is confusing.

There's no disagreement. I believe we are both good and evil.


As a Christian and in my spiritual walk God reveals what needs to change (whatever that may be) and I obey, that area of darkness is now illuminated with light, evil is replaced with what God sees pleasing and as we expel these elements we are becoming like God (light), this brings our spirit in unity with God.

In being both good and evil or light and darkness, in replacing the dark sides of ourselves, we are replacing ourselves with goodness or light, in other words, as you said "God". If God is light and we are both light and darkness, then, any light we may have comes from God, not ourselves. Being we are not light or goodness (for, God, alone, is the light or is good), then, we must be darkness or evil; and in replacing ourselves with light, we are replacing ourselves with God.
matt.mcguire88
Posts: 1,137
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8/20/2014 8:16:08 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/20/2014 2:21:02 PM, s-anthony wrote:
At 8/20/2014 10:57:10 AM, matt.mcguire88 wrote:
At 8/20/2014 9:57:32 AM, s-anthony wrote:
At 8/20/2014 4:31:39 AM, matt.mcguire88 wrote:
At 8/19/2014 11:48:48 PM, s-anthony wrote:
At 8/19/2014 7:06:47 PM, matt.mcguire88 wrote:
At 8/19/2014 6:32:06 PM, s-anthony wrote:
At 8/19/2014 4:57:18 PM, matt.mcguire88 wrote:
I would just like to understand the intent and what you would like to resolve, basically to understand your point better.

My point is good and evil are essential to one's identity and should be treated as such.

I would agree that they are essential to identify, but not necessarily does it have to be apart of us, as a Christian once we identify an evil or are convicted of something that is displeasing to God it is part of our nature to eliminate it, although with God as our source and strength we are free to move forward to change it.

How is it they are essential to identity but not necessarily apart of who we are? Are you trying to say we lose our identities, as we rid ourselves of evil?

Evil is essential to identify to be uprooted, the more we fill our being with light (God) the more we expel darkness and deprive evil from this temple.
No we do not "lose" our identities we are essentially gaining them, God does not view evil and sin as our identity but as an indicator.

Ok. Let me make sure I'm understanding you. Is human nature sinful? If not, then, why would it be essential for us to uproot it? If we are by nature good, why would we need to fill ourselves with light and expel darkness? Since we are not identified as being sinners, then, why do we need to be saved from sin?

I think we lost each other here a little, I thought we were at an agreement that our nature is both good and evil, so your question is confusing.

There's no disagreement. I believe we are both good and evil.


As a Christian and in my spiritual walk God reveals what needs to change (whatever that may be) and I obey, that area of darkness is now illuminated with light, evil is replaced with what God sees pleasing and as we expel these elements we are becoming like God (light), this brings our spirit in unity with God.

In being both good and evil or light and darkness, in replacing the dark sides of ourselves, we are replacing ourselves with goodness or light, in other words, as you said "God". If God is light and we are both light and darkness, then, any light we may have comes from God, not ourselves. Being we are not light or goodness (for, God, alone, is the light or is good), then, we must be darkness or evil; and in replacing ourselves with light, we are replacing ourselves with God.

Yes sir.
s-anthony
Posts: 2,582
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8/20/2014 9:25:21 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/20/2014 8:16:08 PM, matt.mcguire88 wrote:
At 8/20/2014 2:21:02 PM, s-anthony wrote:
At 8/20/2014 10:57:10 AM, matt.mcguire88 wrote:
At 8/20/2014 9:57:32 AM, s-anthony wrote:
At 8/20/2014 4:31:39 AM, matt.mcguire88 wrote:
At 8/19/2014 11:48:48 PM, s-anthony wrote:
At 8/19/2014 7:06:47 PM, matt.mcguire88 wrote:
At 8/19/2014 6:32:06 PM, s-anthony wrote:
At 8/19/2014 4:57:18 PM, matt.mcguire88 wrote:
I would just like to understand the intent and what you would like to resolve, basically to understand your point better.

My point is good and evil are essential to one's identity and should be treated as such.

I would agree that they are essential to identify, but not necessarily does it have to be apart of us, as a Christian once we identify an evil or are convicted of something that is displeasing to God it is part of our nature to eliminate it, although with God as our source and strength we are free to move forward to change it.

How is it they are essential to identity but not necessarily apart of who we are? Are you trying to say we lose our identities, as we rid ourselves of evil?

Evil is essential to identify to be uprooted, the more we fill our being with light (God) the more we expel darkness and deprive evil from this temple.
No we do not "lose" our identities we are essentially gaining them, God does not view evil and sin as our identity but as an indicator.

Ok. Let me make sure I'm understanding you. Is human nature sinful? If not, then, why would it be essential for us to uproot it? If we are by nature good, why would we need to fill ourselves with light and expel darkness? Since we are not identified as being sinners, then, why do we need to be saved from sin?

I think we lost each other here a little, I thought we were at an agreement that our nature is both good and evil, so your question is confusing.

There's no disagreement. I believe we are both good and evil.


As a Christian and in my spiritual walk God reveals what needs to change (whatever that may be) and I obey, that area of darkness is now illuminated with light, evil is replaced with what God sees pleasing and as we expel these elements we are becoming like God (light), this brings our spirit in unity with God.

In being both good and evil or light and darkness, in replacing the dark sides of ourselves, we are replacing ourselves with goodness or light, in other words, as you said "God". If God is light and we are both light and darkness, then, any light we may have comes from God, not ourselves. Being we are not light or goodness (for, God, alone, is the light or is good), then, we must be darkness or evil; and in replacing ourselves with light, we are replacing ourselves with God.

Yes sir.

Then, what is the point of our creation? Why would God create evil, if, only, to destroy it?

If God has a single value, being supremely good, and the only other value is evil, then, in destroying evil, isn't God also destroying goodness? For, how can goodness exist without the contrasting value of evil? Or, what is goodness, if there's no way to say that which it's not?
matt.mcguire88
Posts: 1,137
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8/20/2014 9:38:40 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/20/2014 9:25:21 PM, s-anthony wrote:
At 8/20/2014 8:16:08 PM, matt.mcguire88 wrote:
At 8/20/2014 2:21:02 PM, s-anthony wrote:
At 8/20/2014 10:57:10 AM, matt.mcguire88 wrote:
At 8/20/2014 9:57:32 AM, s-anthony wrote:
At 8/20/2014 4:31:39 AM, matt.mcguire88 wrote:
At 8/19/2014 11:48:48 PM, s-anthony wrote:
At 8/19/2014 7:06:47 PM, matt.mcguire88 wrote:
At 8/19/2014 6:32:06 PM, s-anthony wrote:
At 8/19/2014 4:57:18 PM, matt.mcguire88 wrote:
I would just like to understand the intent and what you would like to resolve, basically to understand your point better.

My point is good and evil are essential to one's identity and should be treated as such.

I would agree that they are essential to identify, but not necessarily does it have to be apart of us, as a Christian once we identify an evil or are convicted of something that is displeasing to God it is part of our nature to eliminate it, although with God as our source and strength we are free to move forward to change it.

How is it they are essential to identity but not necessarily apart of who we are? Are you trying to say we lose our identities, as we rid ourselves of evil?

Evil is essential to identify to be uprooted, the more we fill our being with light (God) the more we expel darkness and deprive evil from this temple.
No we do not "lose" our identities we are essentially gaining them, God does not view evil and sin as our identity but as an indicator.

Ok. Let me make sure I'm understanding you. Is human nature sinful? If not, then, why would it be essential for us to uproot it? If we are by nature good, why would we need to fill ourselves with light and expel darkness? Since we are not identified as being sinners, then, why do we need to be saved from sin?

I think we lost each other here a little, I thought we were at an agreement that our nature is both good and evil, so your question is confusing.

There's no disagreement. I believe we are both good and evil.


As a Christian and in my spiritual walk God reveals what needs to change (whatever that may be) and I obey, that area of darkness is now illuminated with light, evil is replaced with what God sees pleasing and as we expel these elements we are becoming like God (light), this brings our spirit in unity with God.

In being both good and evil or light and darkness, in replacing the dark sides of ourselves, we are replacing ourselves with goodness or light, in other words, as you said "God". If God is light and we are both light and darkness, then, any light we may have comes from God, not ourselves. Being we are not light or goodness (for, God, alone, is the light or is good), then, we must be darkness or evil; and in replacing ourselves with light, we are replacing ourselves with God.

Yes sir.

Then, what is the point of our creation? Why would God create evil, if, only, to destroy it?

So in other words the above paragraph is not what you really believe lol? Why were you not just up front with me?

If God has a single value, being supremely good, and the only other value is evil, then, in destroying evil, isn't God also destroying goodness? For, how can goodness exist without the contrasting value of evil? Or, what is goodness, if there's no way to say that which it's not?
s-anthony
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8/20/2014 10:01:20 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/20/2014 9:38:40 PM, matt.mcguire88 wrote:
At 8/20/2014 9:25:21 PM, s-anthony wrote:
At 8/20/2014 8:16:08 PM, matt.mcguire88 wrote:
At 8/20/2014 2:21:02 PM, s-anthony wrote:
At 8/20/2014 10:57:10 AM, matt.mcguire88 wrote:
At 8/20/2014 9:57:32 AM, s-anthony wrote:
At 8/20/2014 4:31:39 AM, matt.mcguire88 wrote:
At 8/19/2014 11:48:48 PM, s-anthony wrote:
At 8/19/2014 7:06:47 PM, matt.mcguire88 wrote:
At 8/19/2014 6:32:06 PM, s-anthony wrote:
At 8/19/2014 4:57:18 PM, matt.mcguire88 wrote:
I would just like to understand the intent and what you would like to resolve, basically to understand your point better.

My point is good and evil are essential to one's identity and should be treated as such.

I would agree that they are essential to identify, but not necessarily does it have to be apart of us, as a Christian once we identify an evil or are convicted of something that is displeasing to God it is part of our nature to eliminate it, although with God as our source and strength we are free to move forward to change it.

How is it they are essential to identity but not necessarily apart of who we are? Are you trying to say we lose our identities, as we rid ourselves of evil?

Evil is essential to identify to be uprooted, the more we fill our being with light (God) the more we expel darkness and deprive evil from this temple.
No we do not "lose" our identities we are essentially gaining them, God does not view evil and sin as our identity but as an indicator.

Ok. Let me make sure I'm understanding you. Is human nature sinful? If not, then, why would it be essential for us to uproot it? If we are by nature good, why would we need to fill ourselves with light and expel darkness? Since we are not identified as being sinners, then, why do we need to be saved from sin?

I think we lost each other here a little, I thought we were at an agreement that our nature is both good and evil, so your question is confusing.

There's no disagreement. I believe we are both good and evil.


As a Christian and in my spiritual walk God reveals what needs to change (whatever that may be) and I obey, that area of darkness is now illuminated with light, evil is replaced with what God sees pleasing and as we expel these elements we are becoming like God (light), this brings our spirit in unity with God.

In being both good and evil or light and darkness, in replacing the dark sides of ourselves, we are replacing ourselves with goodness or light, in other words, as you said "God". If God is light and we are both light and darkness, then, any light we may have comes from God, not ourselves. Being we are not light or goodness (for, God, alone, is the light or is good), then, we must be darkness or evil; and in replacing ourselves with light, we are replacing ourselves with God.

Yes sir.

Then, what is the point of our creation? Why would God create evil, if, only, to destroy it?

So in other words the above paragraph is not what you really believe lol? Why were you not just up front with me?

I don't believe we, alone, are evil, just as I don't believe God, alone, is good. The point of the statement was to point out the futility of creating something only to destroy it, especially, if in destroying it, you destroy yourself.


If God has a single value, being supremely good, and the only other value is evil, then, in destroying evil, isn't God also destroying goodness? For, how can goodness exist without the contrasting value of evil? Or, what is goodness, if there's no way to say that which it's not?
matt.mcguire88
Posts: 1,137
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8/21/2014 9:42:01 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/20/2014 10:01:20 PM, s-anthony wrote:
At 8/20/2014 9:38:40 PM, matt.mcguire88 wrote:
At 8/20/2014 9:25:21 PM, s-anthony wrote:
At 8/20/2014 8:16:08 PM, matt.mcguire88 wrote:
At 8/20/2014 2:21:02 PM, s-anthony wrote:
At 8/20/2014 10:57:10 AM, matt.mcguire88 wrote:
At 8/20/2014 9:57:32 AM, s-anthony wrote:
At 8/20/2014 4:31:39 AM, matt.mcguire88 wrote:
At 8/19/2014 11:48:48 PM, s-anthony wrote:
At 8/19/2014 7:06:47 PM, matt.mcguire88 wrote:
At 8/19/2014 6:32:06 PM, s-anthony wrote:
At 8/19/2014 4:57:18 PM, matt.mcguire88 wrote:
I would just like to understand the intent and what you would like to resolve, basically to understand your point better.

My point is good and evil are essential to one's identity and should be treated as such.

I would agree that they are essential to identify, but not necessarily does it have to be apart of us, as a Christian once we identify an evil or are convicted of something that is displeasing to God it is part of our nature to eliminate it, although with God as our source and strength we are free to move forward to change it.

How is it they are essential to identity but not necessarily apart of who we are? Are you trying to say we lose our identities, as we rid ourselves of evil?

Evil is essential to identify to be uprooted, the more we fill our being with light (God) the more we expel darkness and deprive evil from this temple.
No we do not "lose" our identities we are essentially gaining them, God does not view evil and sin as our identity but as an indicator.

Ok. Let me make sure I'm understanding you. Is human nature sinful? If not, then, why would it be essential for us to uproot it? If we are by nature good, why would we need to fill ourselves with light and expel darkness? Since we are not identified as being sinners, then, why do we need to be saved from sin?

I think we lost each other here a little, I thought we were at an agreement that our nature is both good and evil, so your question is confusing.

There's no disagreement. I believe we are both good and evil.


As a Christian and in my spiritual walk God reveals what needs to change (whatever that may be) and I obey, that area of darkness is now illuminated with light, evil is replaced with what God sees pleasing and as we expel these elements we are becoming like God (light), this brings our spirit in unity with God.

In being both good and evil or light and darkness, in replacing the dark sides of ourselves, we are replacing ourselves with goodness or light, in other words, as you said "God". If God is light and we are both light and darkness, then, any light we may have comes from God, not ourselves. Being we are not light or goodness (for, God, alone, is the light or is good), then, we must be darkness or evil; and in replacing ourselves with light, we are replacing ourselves with God.

Yes sir.

Then, what is the point of our creation? Why would God create evil, if, only, to destroy it?

So in other words the above paragraph is not what you really believe lol? Why were you not just up front with me?

I don't believe we, alone, are evil, just as I don't believe God, alone, is good. The point of the statement was to point out the futility of creating something only to destroy it, especially, if in destroying it, you destroy yourself.

We are going off the tracks here, for starters I'ts obvious now that we have some major differences in our beliefs. We agreed that we are both evil and good by "nature", so the sentence you opened with is incorrect, we never said that we alone are evil, we have both an evil and good nature.
How does eliminating evil destroy ones self? I just explained to you the process by which it is done as a Christian, and so I'm not destroyed lol, so I don't understand where you are going with that.


If God has a single value, being supremely good, and the only other value is evil, then, in destroying evil, isn't God also destroying goodness? For, how can goodness exist without the contrasting value of evil? Or, what is goodness, if there's no way to say that which it's not?

No, show me where evil is a value in scripture, anyone who has read the scriptures should know that God does not value evil lol. And please don't go quoting the Isaiah verse unless you take the time to read that whole chapter, a very clear passage is in James 1:13-15. God does not make people evil even though God has takin the responsibility that it exists in the world. First evil exists and will always exist in us or not in us, there will always be examples of evil as long as we are here we don't have to abide with evil inside us to be complete, there will always remain a contrast of evil and good, the point as a Christian is to come out of that darkness into the light, and it is a process, for me it has been a continual one. Even when one is led away from evil one can just as easily return.

Don't get me wrong, we as humans will always have an imperfect nature even as we are delivered, but we don't have to be controlled by darkness and succumb to temptation, by rejecting those elements we are allowing more light to enter our beings.
s-anthony
Posts: 2,582
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8/21/2014 11:26:44 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/21/2014 9:42:01 AM, matt.mcguire88 wrote:
At 8/20/2014 10:01:20 PM, s-anthony wrote:
At 8/20/2014 9:38:40 PM, matt.mcguire88 wrote:
At 8/20/2014 9:25:21 PM, s-anthony wrote:
At 8/20/2014 8:16:08 PM, matt.mcguire88 wrote:
At 8/20/2014 2:21:02 PM, s-anthony wrote:
At 8/20/2014 10:57:10 AM, matt.mcguire88 wrote:
At 8/20/2014 9:57:32 AM, s-anthony wrote:
At 8/20/2014 4:31:39 AM, matt.mcguire88 wrote:
At 8/19/2014 11:48:48 PM, s-anthony wrote:
At 8/19/2014 7:06:47 PM, matt.mcguire88 wrote:
At 8/19/2014 6:32:06 PM, s-anthony wrote:
At 8/19/2014 4:57:18 PM, matt.mcguire88 wrote:
I would just like to understand the intent and what you would like to resolve, basically to understand your point better.

My point is good and evil are essential to one's identity and should be treated as such.

I would agree that they are essential to identify, but not necessarily does it have to be apart of us, as a Christian once we identify an evil or are convicted of something that is displeasing to God it is part of our nature to eliminate it, although with God as our source and strength we are free to move forward to change it.

How is it they are essential to identity but not necessarily apart of who we are? Are you trying to say we lose our identities, as we rid ourselves of evil?

Evil is essential to identify to be uprooted, the more we fill our being with light (God) the more we expel darkness and deprive evil from this temple.
No we do not "lose" our identities we are essentially gaining them, God does not view evil and sin as our identity but as an indicator.

Ok. Let me make sure I'm understanding you. Is human nature sinful? If not, then, why would it be essential for us to uproot it? If we are by nature good, why would we need to fill ourselves with light and expel darkness? Since we are not identified as being sinners, then, why do we need to be saved from sin?

I think we lost each other here a little, I thought we were at an agreement that our nature is both good and evil, so your question is confusing.

There's no disagreement. I believe we are both good and evil.


As a Christian and in my spiritual walk God reveals what needs to change (whatever that may be) and I obey, that area of darkness is now illuminated with light, evil is replaced with what God sees pleasing and as we expel these elements we are becoming like God (light), this brings our spirit in unity with God.

In being both good and evil or light and darkness, in replacing the dark sides of ourselves, we are replacing ourselves with goodness or light, in other words, as you said "God". If God is light and we are both light and darkness, then, any light we may have comes from God, not ourselves. Being we are not light or goodness (for, God, alone, is the light or is good), then, we must be darkness or evil; and in replacing ourselves with light, we are replacing ourselves with God.

Yes sir.

Then, what is the point of our creation? Why would God create evil, if, only, to destroy it?

So in other words the above paragraph is not what you really believe lol? Why were you not just up front with me?

I don't believe we, alone, are evil, just as I don't believe God, alone, is good. The point of the statement was to point out the futility of creating something only to destroy it, especially, if in destroying it, you destroy yourself.

We are going off the tracks here, for starters I'ts obvious now that we have some major differences in our beliefs. We agreed that we are both evil and good by "nature", so the sentence you opened with is incorrect, we never said that we alone are evil, we have both an evil and good nature.
How does eliminating evil destroy ones self? I just explained to you the process by which it is done as a Christian, and so I'm not destroyed lol, so I don't understand where you are going with that.

Correct. We did start off by saying humans are both good and evil, and I never retracted my belief in that statement. However, you believe God is alone good and all goodness comes from God. So, if humans have any goodness, that goodness comes from God. Being God is alone goodness, in replacing one's darkness with goodness, he, or she, is replacing that part of himself, or herself, with God, unless you concede goodness comes from a source other than God.



If God has a single value, being supremely good, and the only other value is evil, then, in destroying evil, isn't God also destroying goodness? For, how can goodness exist without the contrasting value of evil? Or, what is goodness, if there's no way to say that which it's not?

No, show me where evil is a value in scripture, anyone who has read the scriptures should know that God does not value evil lol. And please don't go quoting the Isaiah verse unless you take the time to read that whole chapter, a very clear passage is in James 1:13-15.

If goodness, or light, is a value, then, evil, or darkness, must be one, also. If all were light and there were darkness or shadows, nothing would have contrast, or definition; everything would be meaningless, and without value.

God does not make people evil even though God has takin the responsibility that it exists in the world. First evil exists and will always exist in us or not in us, there will always be examples of evil as long as we are here we don't have to abide with evil inside us to be complete, there will always remain a contrast of evil and good, the point as a Christian is to come out of that darkness into the light, and it is a process, for me it has been a continual one. Even when one is led away from evil one can just as easily return.

You can be defined as mere goodness, having no variance or shadow of turning? Being so, what makes you different from God?


Don't get me wrong, we as humans will always have an imperfect nature even as we are delivered, but we don't have to be controlled by darkness and succumb to temptation, by rejecting those elements we are allowing more light to enter our beings.

If we will always have an imperfect nature, then, how are we not controlled by darkness or given over to temptation?