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An interesting question.

bulproof
Posts: 25,238
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8/20/2014 11:41:14 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Why do christians believe the universe came from nothing?
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
Beastt
Posts: 5,135
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8/21/2014 12:31:49 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/21/2014 12:17:59 AM, Benshapiro wrote:
What Christian believes that the universe came from nothing?

Where did God come from?
"If we believe absurdities we shall commit atrocities." -- Voltaire
Benshapiro
Posts: 3,966
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8/21/2014 12:39:10 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
God - or something - must exist eternally. Something eternally existent doesn't need to come from anything if it already exists.
bulproof
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8/21/2014 1:00:14 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/21/2014 12:17:59 AM, Benshapiro wrote:
What Christian believes that the universe came from nothing?

So where do christians say it came from?
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
Benshapiro
Posts: 3,966
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8/21/2014 1:05:18 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/21/2014 1:00:14 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 8/21/2014 12:17:59 AM, Benshapiro wrote:
What Christian believes that the universe came from nothing?

So where do christians say it came from?

From God, obviously
Cassius
Posts: 142
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8/21/2014 1:07:16 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/21/2014 1:05:18 AM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 8/21/2014 1:00:14 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 8/21/2014 12:17:59 AM, Benshapiro wrote:
What Christian believes that the universe came from nothing?

So where do christians say it came from?

From God, obviously

From God, as to cause. From nothing, as to substance. As God created matter, we do not need to presuppose matter before the act of creation.
I used to be Nur-Ab-Sal.
bulproof
Posts: 25,238
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8/21/2014 1:09:11 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/21/2014 1:05:18 AM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 8/21/2014 1:00:14 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 8/21/2014 12:17:59 AM, Benshapiro wrote:
What Christian believes that the universe came from nothing?

So where do christians say it came from?

From God, obviously

God is not physical, god is not matter, god is not energy. What did god use to make energy and matter?
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
bulproof
Posts: 25,238
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8/21/2014 1:10:59 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/21/2014 1:07:16 AM, Cassius wrote:
At 8/21/2014 1:05:18 AM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 8/21/2014 1:00:14 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 8/21/2014 12:17:59 AM, Benshapiro wrote:
What Christian believes that the universe came from nothing?

So where do christians say it came from?

From God, obviously

From God, as to cause. From nothing, as to substance. As God created matter, we do not need to presuppose matter before the act of creation.

Well Benny boy it would appear that Cassius is a christian who believes the universe came from nothing. How 'bout that?
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
Cassius
Posts: 142
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8/21/2014 1:14:47 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/21/2014 1:10:59 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 8/21/2014 1:07:16 AM, Cassius wrote:
At 8/21/2014 1:05:18 AM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 8/21/2014 1:00:14 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 8/21/2014 12:17:59 AM, Benshapiro wrote:
What Christian believes that the universe came from nothing?

So where do christians say it came from?

From God, obviously

From God, as to cause. From nothing, as to substance. As God created matter, we do not need to presuppose matter before the act of creation.

Well Benny boy it would appear that Cassius is a christian who believes the universe came from nothing. How 'bout that?

I think we're equivocating here, especially since we're dancing around the ambiguity of "from." We say that all creation is from God, as effect is from cause, or as son is from father. But we also say that all creation is from nothing, as posterior is from prior, or as midday is from morning.
I used to be Nur-Ab-Sal.
Benshapiro
Posts: 3,966
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8/21/2014 1:18:56 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/21/2014 1:09:11 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 8/21/2014 1:05:18 AM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 8/21/2014 1:00:14 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 8/21/2014 12:17:59 AM, Benshapiro wrote:
What Christian believes that the universe came from nothing?

So where do christians say it came from?

From God, obviously

God is not physical, god is not matter, god is not energy. What did god use to make energy and matter?

God is a metaphysical being transcendent of physical necessity. He could've willed it into existence with any method he so chose if he's the mastermind behind all that exists anyway.How would I know and what does it matter what method God used to create energy and matter? Even If God chose to create the universe out of nothing, God is still the cause.
bulproof
Posts: 25,238
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8/21/2014 1:25:12 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/21/2014 1:18:56 AM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 8/21/2014 1:09:11 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 8/21/2014 1:05:18 AM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 8/21/2014 1:00:14 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 8/21/2014 12:17:59 AM, Benshapiro wrote:
What Christian believes that the universe came from nothing?

So where do christians say it came from?

From God, obviously

God is not physical, god is not matter, god is not energy. What did god use to make energy and matter?

God is a metaphysical being transcendent of physical necessity. He could've willed it into existence with any method he so chose if he's the mastermind behind all that exists anyway.How would I know and what does it matter what method God used to create energy and matter? Even If God chose to create the universe out of nothing, God is still the cause.

And so you've come full circle even with your denial
Why do christians believe the universe came from nothing?

And look at this
God is a metaphysical being transcendent of physical necessity. He could've willed it into existence with any method he so chose if he's the mastermind behind all that exists anyway.

He could have done it any way he liked as long as he could have done it, look just up ahead it's your tail.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
bulproof
Posts: 25,238
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8/21/2014 1:27:31 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/21/2014 1:14:47 AM, Cassius wrote:
At 8/21/2014 1:10:59 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 8/21/2014 1:07:16 AM, Cassius wrote:
At 8/21/2014 1:05:18 AM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 8/21/2014 1:00:14 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 8/21/2014 12:17:59 AM, Benshapiro wrote:
What Christian believes that the universe came from nothing?

So where do christians say it came from?

From God, obviously

From God, as to cause. From nothing, as to substance. As God created matter, we do not need to presuppose matter before the act of creation.

Well Benny boy it would appear that Cassius is a christian who believes the universe came from nothing. How 'bout that?

I think we're equivocating here, especially since we're dancing around the ambiguity of "from." We say that all creation is from God, as effect is from cause, or as son is from father. But we also say that all creation is from nothing, as posterior is from prior, or as midday is from morning.

What equivocation? I asked
Why do christians believe the universe came from nothing?
You stated that the universe came from nothing and are now trying to squirm out of it.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
Benshapiro
Posts: 3,966
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8/21/2014 1:38:17 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
Christians don't believe the universe came from nothing. They believe it came from God. God could've created the universe out of nothing.

You're conflating the cause of the universe with the method of creation.
bulproof
Posts: 25,238
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8/21/2014 1:41:28 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/21/2014 1:38:17 AM, Benshapiro wrote:
Christians don't believe the universe came from nothing. They believe it came from God. God could've created the universe out of nothing.

You're conflating the cause of the universe with the method of creation.

You see where you claim that the universe came from nothing and still deny that you believe that the universe came from nothing.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
Cassius
Posts: 142
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8/21/2014 1:44:03 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/21/2014 1:27:31 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 8/21/2014 1:14:47 AM, Cassius wrote:
At 8/21/2014 1:10:59 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 8/21/2014 1:07:16 AM, Cassius wrote:
At 8/21/2014 1:05:18 AM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 8/21/2014 1:00:14 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 8/21/2014 12:17:59 AM, Benshapiro wrote:
What Christian believes that the universe came from nothing?

So where do christians say it came from?

From God, obviously

From God, as to cause. From nothing, as to substance. As God created matter, we do not need to presuppose matter before the act of creation.

Well Benny boy it would appear that Cassius is a christian who believes the universe came from nothing. How 'bout that?

I think we're equivocating here, especially since we're dancing around the ambiguity of "from." We say that all creation is from God, as effect is from cause, or as son is from father. But we also say that all creation is from nothing, as posterior is from prior, or as midday is from morning.

What equivocation? I asked
Why do christians believe the universe came from nothing?
You stated that the universe came from nothing and are now trying to squirm out of it.

Yeah, it came from nothing, as in: "not-matter, next matter." That's regarding the substance of matter. Regarding the cause, I believe it came from God. I came into this conversation knowing full-well what you, and what benshapiro, were trying to say, and you're arguing past each other.
I used to be Nur-Ab-Sal.
Benshapiro
Posts: 3,966
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8/21/2014 1:46:49 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/21/2014 1:41:28 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 8/21/2014 1:38:17 AM, Benshapiro wrote:
Christians don't believe the universe came from nothing. They believe it came from God. God could've created the universe out of nothing.

You're conflating the cause of the universe with the method of creation.

You see where you claim that the universe came from nothing and still deny that you believe that the universe came from nothing.

You're conflating the cause of the universe with the method of creation.
Cassius
Posts: 142
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8/21/2014 1:49:56 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/21/2014 1:46:49 AM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 8/21/2014 1:41:28 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 8/21/2014 1:38:17 AM, Benshapiro wrote:
Christians don't believe the universe came from nothing. They believe it came from God. God could've created the universe out of nothing.

You're conflating the cause of the universe with the method of creation.

You see where you claim that the universe came from nothing and still deny that you believe that the universe came from nothing.

You're conflating the cause of the universe with the method of creation.

Yeah, and here I was thinking it really doesn't take too much to see this distinction.
I used to be Nur-Ab-Sal.
bulproof
Posts: 25,238
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8/21/2014 1:51:05 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/21/2014 1:44:03 AM, Cassius wrote:
At 8/21/2014 1:27:31 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 8/21/2014 1:14:47 AM, Cassius wrote:
At 8/21/2014 1:10:59 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 8/21/2014 1:07:16 AM, Cassius wrote:
At 8/21/2014 1:05:18 AM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 8/21/2014 1:00:14 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 8/21/2014 12:17:59 AM, Benshapiro wrote:
What Christian believes that the universe came from nothing?

So where do christians say it came from?

From God, obviously

From God, as to cause. From nothing, as to substance. As God created matter, we do not need to presuppose matter before the act of creation.

Well Benny boy it would appear that Cassius is a christian who believes the universe came from nothing. How 'bout that?

I think we're equivocating here, especially since we're dancing around the ambiguity of "from." We say that all creation is from God, as effect is from cause, or as son is from father. But we also say that all creation is from nothing, as posterior is from prior, or as midday is from morning.

What equivocation? I asked
Why do christians believe the universe came from nothing?
You stated that the universe came from nothing and are now trying to squirm out of it.

Yeah, it came from nothing, as in: "not-matter, next matter." That's regarding the substance of matter. Regarding the cause, I believe it came from God. I came into this conversation knowing full-well what you, and what benshapiro, were trying to say, and you're arguing past each other.

You still haven't told me WHY you believe that it came from nothing?
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
bulproof
Posts: 25,238
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8/21/2014 1:55:48 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/21/2014 1:46:49 AM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 8/21/2014 1:41:28 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 8/21/2014 1:38:17 AM, Benshapiro wrote:
Christians don't believe the universe came from nothing. They believe it came from God. God could've created the universe out of nothing.

You're conflating the cause of the universe with the method of creation.

You see where you claim that the universe came from nothing and still deny that you believe that the universe came from nothing.

You're conflating the cause of the universe with the method of creation.

I have never mentioned cause or creation, those are your rouge fish.
Why do you believe that the universe came from nothing. So you believe you know what caused the universe to come from nothing, but that is irrelevant to the question being asked.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
Cassius
Posts: 142
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8/21/2014 1:59:21 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/21/2014 1:51:05 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 8/21/2014 1:44:03 AM, Cassius wrote:
At 8/21/2014 1:27:31 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 8/21/2014 1:14:47 AM, Cassius wrote:
At 8/21/2014 1:10:59 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 8/21/2014 1:07:16 AM, Cassius wrote:
At 8/21/2014 1:05:18 AM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 8/21/2014 1:00:14 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 8/21/2014 12:17:59 AM, Benshapiro wrote:
What Christian believes that the universe came from nothing?

So where do christians say it came from?

From God, obviously

From God, as to cause. From nothing, as to substance. As God created matter, we do not need to presuppose matter before the act of creation.

Well Benny boy it would appear that Cassius is a christian who believes the universe came from nothing. How 'bout that?

I think we're equivocating here, especially since we're dancing around the ambiguity of "from." We say that all creation is from God, as effect is from cause, or as son is from father. But we also say that all creation is from nothing, as posterior is from prior, or as midday is from morning.

What equivocation? I asked
Why do christians believe the universe came from nothing?
You stated that the universe came from nothing and are now trying to squirm out of it.

Yeah, it came from nothing, as in: "not-matter, next matter." That's regarding the substance of matter. Regarding the cause, I believe it came from God. I came into this conversation knowing full-well what you, and what benshapiro, were trying to say, and you're arguing past each other.

You still haven't told me WHY you believe that it came from nothing?

At least now we're past the equivocation on "from."

Well, it's a matter of believing whether the world began; because if the world began, then matter is from not-world in the sense that the doctrine of ex nihilo claims -- namely, "not-world, next, world." If, however, the world is eternal, as some of other philosophers suggested, then in no real sense did the world come from not-world. I do not believe it can be proved from reason that the world began, or that it can be proved from reason that the world did not begin. As such, it's an article of faith for me, one based in a religious tradition you do not accept.
I used to be Nur-Ab-Sal.
bulproof
Posts: 25,238
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8/21/2014 2:04:44 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/21/2014 1:59:21 AM, Cassius wrote:
At 8/21/2014 1:51:05 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 8/21/2014 1:44:03 AM, Cassius wrote:
At 8/21/2014 1:27:31 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 8/21/2014 1:14:47 AM, Cassius wrote:
At 8/21/2014 1:10:59 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 8/21/2014 1:07:16 AM, Cassius wrote:
At 8/21/2014 1:05:18 AM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 8/21/2014 1:00:14 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 8/21/2014 12:17:59 AM, Benshapiro wrote:
What Christian believes that the universe came from nothing?

So where do christians say it came from?

From God, obviously

From God, as to cause. From nothing, as to substance. As God created matter, we do not need to presuppose matter before the act of creation.

Well Benny boy it would appear that Cassius is a christian who believes the universe came from nothing. How 'bout that?

I think we're equivocating here, especially since we're dancing around the ambiguity of "from." We say that all creation is from God, as effect is from cause, or as son is from father. But we also say that all creation is from nothing, as posterior is from prior, or as midday is from morning.

What equivocation? I asked
Why do christians believe the universe came from nothing?
You stated that the universe came from nothing and are now trying to squirm out of it.

Yeah, it came from nothing, as in: "not-matter, next matter." That's regarding the substance of matter. Regarding the cause, I believe it came from God. I came into this conversation knowing full-well what you, and what benshapiro, were trying to say, and you're arguing past each other.

You still haven't told me WHY you believe that it came from nothing?

At least now we're past the equivocation on "from."

Well, it's a matter of believing whether the world began; because if the world began, then matter is from not-world in the sense that the doctrine of ex nihilo claims -- namely, "not-world, next, world." If, however, the world is eternal, as some of other philosophers suggested, then in no real sense did the world come from not-world. I do not believe it can be proved from reason that the world began, or that it can be proved from reason that the world did not begin. As such, it's an article of faith for me, one based in a religious tradition you do not accept.

That is the original question, I don't see how we have moved on unless you are now claiming that the reason you believe the universe came from nothing is because your religion says so. Is that your answer?
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
Benshapiro
Posts: 3,966
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8/21/2014 2:08:34 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/21/2014 1:55:48 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 8/21/2014 1:46:49 AM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 8/21/2014 1:41:28 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 8/21/2014 1:38:17 AM, Benshapiro wrote:
Christians don't believe the universe came from nothing. They believe it came from God. God could've created the universe out of nothing.

You're conflating the cause of the universe with the method of creation.

You see where you claim that the universe came from nothing and still deny that you believe that the universe came from nothing.

You're conflating the cause of the universe with the method of creation.

I have never mentioned cause or creation, those are your rouge fish.
Why do you believe that the universe came from nothing. So you believe you know what caused the universe to come from nothing, but that is irrelevant to the question being asked.

"Came from" is an ambiguous term that can include cause and method of creation. A painter is the cause of his painting, but the paintbrush is the method of creating his painting. I believe the universe came from God not nothing.
Cassius
Posts: 142
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8/21/2014 2:10:13 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/21/2014 2:04:44 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 8/21/2014 1:59:21 AM, Cassius wrote:
At 8/21/2014 1:51:05 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 8/21/2014 1:44:03 AM, Cassius wrote:
At 8/21/2014 1:27:31 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 8/21/2014 1:14:47 AM, Cassius wrote:
At 8/21/2014 1:10:59 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 8/21/2014 1:07:16 AM, Cassius wrote:
At 8/21/2014 1:05:18 AM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 8/21/2014 1:00:14 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 8/21/2014 12:17:59 AM, Benshapiro wrote:
What Christian believes that the universe came from nothing?

So where do christians say it came from?

From God, obviously

From God, as to cause. From nothing, as to substance. As God created matter, we do not need to presuppose matter before the act of creation.

Well Benny boy it would appear that Cassius is a christian who believes the universe came from nothing. How 'bout that?

I think we're equivocating here, especially since we're dancing around the ambiguity of "from." We say that all creation is from God, as effect is from cause, or as son is from father. But we also say that all creation is from nothing, as posterior is from prior, or as midday is from morning.

What equivocation? I asked
Why do christians believe the universe came from nothing?
You stated that the universe came from nothing and are now trying to squirm out of it.

Yeah, it came from nothing, as in: "not-matter, next matter." That's regarding the substance of matter. Regarding the cause, I believe it came from God. I came into this conversation knowing full-well what you, and what benshapiro, were trying to say, and you're arguing past each other.

You still haven't told me WHY you believe that it came from nothing?

At least now we're past the equivocation on "from."

Well, it's a matter of believing whether the world began; because if the world began, then matter is from not-world in the sense that the doctrine of ex nihilo claims -- namely, "not-world, next, world." If, however, the world is eternal, as some of other philosophers suggested, then in no real sense did the world come from not-world. I do not believe it can be proved from reason that the world began, or that it can be proved from reason that the world did not begin. As such, it's an article of faith for me, one based in a religious tradition you do not accept.

That is the original question, I don't see how we have moved on unless you are now claiming that the reason you believe the universe came from nothing is because your religion says so. Is that your answer?

Well, there's broad reasons to believe that God did create out of nothing; for instance, to display His omnipotent power as the principle from which all else proceeds. But, on strictly philosophical grounds, I don't believe there's any way to prove -- either way -- that the world began or did not begin. So, the reason I believe that the world began is because of the words of Scripture, which philosophical argument can neither confirm nor deny.
I used to be Nur-Ab-Sal.
Beastt
Posts: 5,135
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8/21/2014 2:46:44 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/21/2014 2:10:13 AM, Cassius wrote:

Well, there's broad reasons to believe that God did create out of nothing; for instance, to display His omnipotent power as the principle from which all else proceeds. But, on strictly philosophical grounds, I don't believe there's any way to prove -- either way -- that the world began or did not begin. So, the reason I believe that the world began is because of the words of Scripture, which philosophical argument can neither confirm nor deny.

Can you look at a mountain and then trace back to a time when the mountain didn't exist? Surely we can follow a geological timeline and suggest a time when the upwelling that we identify as the mountain was not in that configuration, but can you even conceptualize a point when it simply did not exist?

We can think back to a time before the space debris from which Earth formed wasn't collected into a planet, but it was still there. If you rake dust into a lump, the dust didn't begin to exist as it took shape as a lump. It existed long before that. So how do you get to a time when it simply didn't exist?

We can take two hydrogen atoms, fuse them together into a helium atom, and a tiny quantity of heat will be released. And the actual mass of that helium atom will be equal to the weight of the two hydrogen atoms, minus a few photons, some neutrinos and a tiny amount of heat. If we then take that heat, cause the atom of helium to absorb it, return the photons, the neutrinos, and then split the two protons and electrons back into two hydrogen atoms, we end up with exactly what we started with. Nothing is ever lost.

We can fuse several hydrogen atoms until we extract millions of photons. Those photons can travel to Earth, strike the leaf of a plant, facilitate photosynthesis, thus turning the light directly into a simple sugar and store that sugar in a cell within the plant. That plant can then die, become buried, and slowly be subjected to greater and greater pressures as it becomes buried under more and more debris and sediments. Eventually, as long as the encasing of the plant doesn't allow for gas exchange, the plant will become a tiny portion of a lump of coal. We can dig that coal out, heat it to its ignition temperature and allow chemical combustion to spawn in a growing release of heat as the carbon molecules in the coal break apart, releasing the energy tied up in their chemical bonds. We'll receive the energy that first became a sugar molecule, converted from photons, through photosynthesis. And if we carefully measure all of the heat, all of the ash, all of the smoke, and all of the light from the burning coal, we'll find that we still have everything we started with. We don't lose a molecule. Energy can travel into the atmosphere, it an convert to matter, matter can interact with energy from the sun, release it's energy, split into constituent parts... and yet, we never lose anything.

So how does one decide that if we follow the process back far enough, everything which exists simply ceases to exist? And if you agree that doesn't seem possible, then how does one again reverse the flow of time and move from a point when none of it existed, to a point when all of it existed?

Look around you. Touch your desk, your mouse, your monitor and your leg. Everything you can touch, everything you can sense, exists. And it's all saying one thing, "I exist". What exists can't not exist. Existence is permanent. What does not exist, will never exist. Non-existence is also permanent. This is a long-winded way of talking about the First Law of Thermodynamics; the "Law of Conservation of Energy". In short it states; "matter/energy can be neither created, nor destroyed" and as a law of physics, we not only find this to always be true, but to be absolutely necessary to maintain the balance required for the universe to offer any degree of stability.

So everything around you, that you can touch, taste, hear, see, smell and even things you can't, all act as solid evidence that they exist... and have always existed. But we must remember that they can change states. Every scrap of matter you see, every scrap of matter that exists anywhere, is simply energy in a form with substance. And it can lose that substance and return to a pure energy state... every atom of it. And if the entire universe were converted to energy... what would you have?

You'd still have the entire universe - every miniscule bit of it - but you couldn't see it, touch it, taste it, hear it or detect it, because we detect energy by its effect on matter. Without any matter, it would appear exactly like nothing. And yet, the entire universe would still be there. And if something happened - suppose a pre-cosmic event we'll call "big-bang", to cause much of that energy to convert back into matter... POOF! There's the whole universe again in a state we can see, smell, hear, taste, touch and detect.

There is no room for creation in anything we know about the properties of matter/energy. What we know is that they cannot be created, and they cannot be destroyed. But they can transition between the two states. So where among that do we find any possibility for a non-physical entity (in itself a contradiction), to bring all that exists, from non-existence, into existence?
"If we believe absurdities we shall commit atrocities." -- Voltaire
Cassius
Posts: 142
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8/21/2014 3:08:27 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/21/2014 2:46:44 AM, Beastt wrote:
There is no room for creation in anything we know about the properties of matter/energy. What we know is that they cannot be created, and they cannot be destroyed. But they can transition between the two states. So where among that do we find any possibility for a non-physical entity (in itself a contradiction), to bring all that exists, from non-existence, into existence?

Christ, what a novel. If you think I'm patient enough to sit down and read the ramblings of an Internet atheist, reanalyse my personality.

Paragraphs and paragraphs and paragraphs of what seems to be essentially inspired by the reductionist tendencies of Heraclitus on one end, and Parmenides on the other. Everything is just matter, and matter is just re-arranged, so it's just absolutely impossible to conceive of something created. Nevermind the reductionist assumptions behind this entire argument (easily refuted by an appeal to a whole which has properties irreducible to its parts). The real problem here is refuting the conceptual posteriority of the world from not-world, with an appeal to the laws of physical reality: that just simply doesn't work. If the idea here is that matter was created, based on whatever philosophical premises, then the rules governing matter of physics were created with them.

Beastt, I'm committing myself to a vow of argumentative chastity with you.
I used to be Nur-Ab-Sal.
Cassius
Posts: 142
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8/21/2014 3:09:53 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/21/2014 3:08:27 AM, Cassius wrote:
At 8/21/2014 2:46:44 AM, Beastt wrote:
There is no room for creation in anything we know about the properties of matter/energy. What we know is that they cannot be created, and they cannot be destroyed. But they can transition between the two states. So where among that do we find any possibility for a non-physical entity (in itself a contradiction), to bring all that exists, from non-existence, into existence?

Christ, what a novel. If you think I'm patient enough to sit down and read the ramblings of an Internet atheist, reanalyse my personality.

Paragraphs and paragraphs and paragraphs of what seems to be essentially inspired by the reductionist tendencies of Heraclitus on one end, and Parmenides on the other. Everything is just matter, and matter is just re-arranged, so it's just absolutely impossible to conceive of something created. Nevermind the reductionist assumptions behind this entire argument (easily refuted by an appeal to a whole which has properties irreducible to its parts). The real problem here is refuting the conceptual posteriority of the world from not-world, with an appeal to the laws of physical reality: that just simply doesn't work. If the idea here is that matter was created, based on whatever philosophical premises, then the rules governing matter of physics were created with them.

Beastt, I'm committing myself to a vow of argumentative chastity with you.

That means, this marks the end of this discussion for me. I should've ducked out when other members failed to distinguish between two obviously different meanings of the word "from."
I used to be Nur-Ab-Sal.
neutral
Posts: 4,478
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8/21/2014 3:19:22 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/21/2014 1:51:05 AM, bulproof wrote:

You still haven't told me WHY you believe that it came from nothing?

Heh troll, why don;t YOU take a stab at answering the question, because YOU believe the same thing.

An super massive prick of pure eneregy pops into existence and explodes for no reason? Creating an entire universe? Magic, eh? Good enough for atheists?

Or 'something else created it!', must have! So what created that something else? Who knows?

You atheists have teh same intellectual problem, yet it takes an incredible amount to hooey to stand there and actually lecture others like this problem is unique to their position. To do it AFTER dozens of posters have pointed this out?

Yep, trolling.

And as we see, atheists jump right in and encourage it. Typically atheist.
Beastt
Posts: 5,135
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8/21/2014 3:27:14 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/21/2014 3:19:22 AM, neutral wrote:
At 8/21/2014 1:51:05 AM, bulproof wrote:

You still haven't told me WHY you believe that it came from nothing?

Heh troll, why don;t YOU take a stab at answering the question, because YOU believe the same thing.

An super massive prick of pure eneregy pops into existence and explodes for no reason? Creating an entire universe? Magic, eh? Good enough for atheists?

Or 'something else created it!', must have! So what created that something else? Who knows?

You atheists have teh same intellectual problem, yet it takes an incredible amount to hooey to stand there and actually lecture others like this problem is unique to their position. To do it AFTER dozens of posters have pointed this out?

Yep, trolling.

And as we see, atheists jump right in and encourage it. Typically atheist.

And yet, you know that no atheist here has ever offered you any such explanation. Which makes you not just a troll, but a liar. Why, why, why... Neutral? Why can't you drop the charade long enough to actually give a crap about the truth?
"If we believe absurdities we shall commit atrocities." -- Voltaire
debateuser
Posts: 1,094
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8/21/2014 3:54:54 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/20/2014 11:41:14 PM, bulproof wrote:
Why do christians believe the universe came from nothing?

Because according to them even God is all by himself. Christians will believe anything as long as it is superstition. But they wont believe what science says.
Scientific Errors In Religion : Atheists are right that religion is a myth

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