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Dr_Obvious
Posts: 551
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8/22/2014 12:50:00 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
Spend so much time and effort trying to disprove something they don't believe in? Let's here what a former atheist has to say.

I was an atheist at one time. And like many atheists, the issue of people believing in God bothered me greatly. What is it about atheists that we would spend so much time, attention, and energy refuting something that we don't believe even exists?! What causes us to do that? When I was an atheist, I attributed my intentions as caring for those poor, delusional people...to help them realize their hope was completely ill-founded. To be honest, I also had another motive. As I challenged those who believed in God, I was deeply curious to see if they could convince me otherwise. Part of my quest was to become free from the question of God. If I could conclusively prove to believers that they were wrong, then the issue is off the table, and I would be free to go about my life.

I didn't realize that the reason the topic of God weighed so heavily on my mind, was because God was pressing the issue. I have come to find out that God wants to be known. He created us with the intention that we would know him. He has surrounded us with evidence of himself and he keeps the question of his existence squarely before us. It was as if I couldn't escape thinking about the possibility of God. In fact, the day I chose to acknowledge God's existence, my prayer began with, "Ok, you win..." It might be that the underlying reason atheists are bothered by people believing in God is because God is actively pursuing them.

I am not the only one who has experienced this. Malcolm Muggeridge, socialist and philosophical author, wrote, "I had a notion that somehow, besides questing, I was being pursued." C.S. Lewis said he remembered, "...night after night, feeling whenever my mind lifted even for a second from my work, the steady, unrelenting approach of Him whom I so earnestly desired not to meet. I gave in, and admitted that God was God, and knelt and prayed: perhaps, that night, the most dejected and reluctant convert in all of England."

Lewis went on to write a book titled, "Surprised by Joy" as a result of knowing God. I too had no expectations other than rightfully admitting God's existence. Yet over the following several months, I became amazed by his love for me.

I strongly urge anyone, who is looking for peace, to read 'Surprised By Joy'. It is probably one of the best books I've ever read. You can order it here.

http://www.amazon.com...

The quotes I used can be found here, along with several reasons to believe in God. May you find Him soon. http://www.everystudent.com...
Illegalcombatant
Posts: 4,008
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8/22/2014 1:45:18 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
It ticks me off that people use arguments that if that just thought about it for 1 min would see are not good arguments cause they can just as easily be used to justify any and all religious beliefs........

Why non muslims argue against islam ? golly maybe they are just running away from the fact that deep down they know the Quran is the perfect word of the creator of the universe and Muhamed is his prophet pbuh.

Yeah you wouldn't accept that bullsh*t would you Dr ? now apply that to what you just posted.
"Seems like another attempt to insert God into areas our knowledge has yet to penetrate. You figure God would be bigger than the gaps of our ignorance." Drafterman 19/5/12
Beastt
Posts: 5,135
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8/22/2014 4:02:15 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
Imagine you lived in a society where nearly everyone believed in fairies. There were huge ornate buildings erected to fairies, bumper stickers, t-shirts, government funds, special laws, wars, bigots, practices of persecution... all devoted to the belief in fairies.

If people found out you didn't believe in fairies, you'd never stand a chance at being elected as a public official. You'd likely lose any teaching job you had. No one would hire you at a day care, and almost no one would trust you. People would look at you with suspicion and disdain. Meanwhile, you sit back and watch while children even in your own neighborhood are going without food, yet the government is providing $71 billion in special grants to fairy worship each and every year. Laws are passed to prevent you from speaking about your lack of fairy belief in the workplace. Your civil rights begin to decay at the hands of people passing laws in hopes of gaining the favor of fairies. Your child is harassed and bullied at school, because his classmates found out he doesn't believe in fairies. You follow a presidential election and see a man with good ideas which appear to be promising to fix some of the most pressing issues of the day; yet you watch him lose to a landslide victory of a man who can't say "nuclear", urges that fish and man can co-exist, and continues reading "My Pet Goat" for seven minutes after he is alerted that the country is under attack on American soil. And then you watch as the majority of your countrymen offer their approval for an illegal war which plunges your country into financial decline, because this president assures the country that he "listens to fairies".

If you had to endure the fallout of such ludicrous beliefs, you'd likely find an immediate sympathy for what atheists endure, and you'd likely form an immediate understanding for why we worry so much about the damage done through outrageously ridiculous beliefs.
"If we believe absurdities we shall commit atrocities." -- Voltaire
Dr_Obvious
Posts: 551
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8/22/2014 4:02:53 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/22/2014 1:45:18 AM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
It ticks me off that people use arguments that if that just thought about it for 1 min would see are not good arguments cause they can just as easily be used to justify any and all religious beliefs........

Why non muslims argue against islam ? golly maybe they are just running away from the fact that deep down they know the Quran is the perfect word of the creator of the universe and Muhamed is his prophet pbuh.

Yeah you wouldn't accept that bullsh*t would you Dr ? now apply that to what you just posted.

I merely posted what a former atheist said about his reasons for doing what he, and many other atheists were doing.
Dr_Obvious
Posts: 551
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8/22/2014 4:07:49 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/22/2014 4:02:15 AM, Beastt wrote:
Imagine you lived in a society where nearly everyone believed in fairies. There were huge ornate buildings erected to fairies, bumper stickers, t-shirts, government funds, special laws, wars, bigots, practices of persecution... all devoted to the belief in fairies.

If people found out you didn't believe in fairies, you'd never stand a chance at being elected as a public official. You'd likely lose any teaching job you had. No one would hire you at a day care, and almost no one would trust you. People would look at you with suspicion and disdain. Meanwhile, you sit back and watch while children even in your own neighborhood are going without food, yet the government is providing $71 billion in special grants to fairy worship each and every year. Laws are passed to prevent you from speaking about your lack of fairy belief in the workplace. Your civil rights begin to decay at the hands of people passing laws in hopes of gaining the favor of fairies. Your child is harassed and bullied at school, because his classmates found out he doesn't believe in fairies. You follow a presidential election and see a man with good ideas which appear to be promising to fix some of the most pressing issues of the day; yet you watch him lose to a landslide victory of a man who can't say "nuclear", urges that fish and man can co-exist, and continues reading "My Pet Goat" for seven minutes after he is alerted that the country is under attack on American soil. And then you watch as the majority of your countrymen offer their approval for an illegal war which plunges your country into financial decline, because this president assures the country that he "listens to fairies".

If you had to endure the fallout of such ludicrous beliefs, you'd likely find an immediate sympathy for what atheists endure, and you'd likely form an immediate understanding for why we worry so much about the damage done through outrageously ridiculous beliefs.

It seems, to me, that you are judging an entire group of people from the actions of one person. There's a name for people like that. True Christians don't act that way. There are many false Christians out there. These are the ones you have a problem with. Have you ever even met a real Christian? If you had, you'd know the difference. You might even like them.
Beastt
Posts: 5,135
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8/22/2014 4:20:27 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/22/2014 4:07:49 AM, Dr_Obvious wrote:
At 8/22/2014 4:02:15 AM, Beastt wrote:
Imagine you lived in a society where nearly everyone believed in fairies. There were huge ornate buildings erected to fairies, bumper stickers, t-shirts, government funds, special laws, wars, bigots, practices of persecution... all devoted to the belief in fairies.

If people found out you didn't believe in fairies, you'd never stand a chance at being elected as a public official. You'd likely lose any teaching job you had. No one would hire you at a day care, and almost no one would trust you. People would look at you with suspicion and disdain. Meanwhile, you sit back and watch while children even in your own neighborhood are going without food, yet the government is providing $71 billion in special grants to fairy worship each and every year. Laws are passed to prevent you from speaking about your lack of fairy belief in the workplace. Your civil rights begin to decay at the hands of people passing laws in hopes of gaining the favor of fairies. Your child is harassed and bullied at school, because his classmates found out he doesn't believe in fairies. You follow a presidential election and see a man with good ideas which appear to be promising to fix some of the most pressing issues of the day; yet you watch him lose to a landslide victory of a man who can't say "nuclear", urges that fish and man can co-exist, and continues reading "My Pet Goat" for seven minutes after he is alerted that the country is under attack on American soil. And then you watch as the majority of your countrymen offer their approval for an illegal war which plunges your country into financial decline, because this president assures the country that he "listens to fairies".

If you had to endure the fallout of such ludicrous beliefs, you'd likely find an immediate sympathy for what atheists endure, and you'd likely form an immediate understanding for why we worry so much about the damage done through outrageously ridiculous beliefs.

It seems, to me, that you are judging an entire group of people from the actions of one person. There's a name for people like that. True Christians don't act that way. There are many false Christians out there. These are the ones you have a problem with. Have you ever even met a real Christian? If you had, you'd know the difference. You might even like them.

The majority of the country provided support for the war - even after the U.N. clearly stated that any such military action would constitute a violation of international law. There may have been one man leading the way, but he couldn't have done it without the support of the majority of the country. And he obtained that by appealing to their superstitions. So no, it's not a matter of judging an entire group for the actions of one person... not even close.

And yes, I've known many Christians. I came very close to seeking marriage to one about 10-years ago. She was a Sunday School Teacher, a devout Christian, the director of a church-sponsored Samaritan Center, and as it turned out - a liar and a cheat. I retired less than 2-years ago but before that, my immediate supervisor was a Christian as was her supervisor above her, and his supervisor above him. All three were corrupt liars, and were caught in multiple lies and unethical practices.
"If we believe absurdities we shall commit atrocities." -- Voltaire
Dr_Obvious
Posts: 551
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8/22/2014 4:33:21 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/22/2014 4:20:27 AM, Beastt wrote:
At 8/22/2014 4:07:49 AM, Dr_Obvious wrote:
At 8/22/2014 4:02:15 AM, Beastt wrote:
Imagine you lived in a society where nearly everyone believed in fairies. There were huge ornate buildings erected to fairies, bumper stickers, t-shirts, government funds, special laws, wars, bigots, practices of persecution... all devoted to the belief in fairies.

If people found out you didn't believe in fairies, you'd never stand a chance at being elected as a public official. You'd likely lose any teaching job you had. No one would hire you at a day care, and almost no one would trust you. People would look at you with suspicion and disdain. Meanwhile, you sit back and watch while children even in your own neighborhood are going without food, yet the government is providing $71 billion in special grants to fairy worship each and every year. Laws are passed to prevent you from speaking about your lack of fairy belief in the workplace. Your civil rights begin to decay at the hands of people passing laws in hopes of gaining the favor of fairies. Your child is harassed and bullied at school, because his classmates found out he doesn't believe in fairies. You follow a presidential election and see a man with good ideas which appear to be promising to fix some of the most pressing issues of the day; yet you watch him lose to a landslide victory of a man who can't say "nuclear", urges that fish and man can co-exist, and continues reading "My Pet Goat" for seven minutes after he is alerted that the country is under attack on American soil. And then you watch as the majority of your countrymen offer their approval for an illegal war which plunges your country into financial decline, because this president assures the country that he "listens to fairies".

If you had to endure the fallout of such ludicrous beliefs, you'd likely find an immediate sympathy for what atheists endure, and you'd likely form an immediate understanding for why we worry so much about the damage done through outrageously ridiculous beliefs.

It seems, to me, that you are judging an entire group of people from the actions of one person. There's a name for people like that. True Christians don't act that way. There are many false Christians out there. These are the ones you have a problem with. Have you ever even met a real Christian? If you had, you'd know the difference. You might even like them.

The majority of the country provided support for the war - even after the U.N. clearly stated that any such military action would constitute a violation of international law. There may have been one man leading the way, but he couldn't have done it without the support of the majority of the country. And he obtained that by appealing to their superstitions. So no, it's not a matter of judging an entire group for the actions of one person... not even close.

And how many atheists do you suppose were in favor of that invasion? Quite a few, I'd think.

And yes, I've known many Christians. I came very close to seeking marriage to one about 10-years ago. She was a Sunday School Teacher, a devout Christian, the director of a church-sponsored Samaritan Center, and as it turned out - a liar and a cheat. I retired less than 2-years ago but before that, my immediate supervisor was a Christian as was her supervisor above her, and his supervisor above him. All three were corrupt liars, and were caught in multiple lies and unethical practices.

These people were not Christians. According to the Bible, Christians obey Gods commandments. Just because someone says they are a Christian doesn't make it true. These people you mentioned lied and cheated. These are not the actions of someone who knows Christ. Remember what I said about false Christians. The Bible specifically states, that during the end times the Church will become corrupt. Here is an article about it, if you're interested. http://www3.telus.net...
dee-em
Posts: 6,494
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8/22/2014 4:34:48 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
As an atheist I can tell you that I have never felt the presence of a god (any god) pressing on me. How could I when I know he is an imaginery being?

This anonymous "atheist" could not have had much conviction about his lack of belief. He also fails to tell us what happened to the arguments he was using on theists. Did he suddenly dumb down and forget them?
MisterMittens
Posts: 3,660
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8/22/2014 5:04:12 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
You are right. I'm an atheist. I don't really actively try to disprove theism, but when a debate arises between me and one of my theist friends on the issue of religion, I would argue in favor of atheism while secretly hoping there was something, some point, which could convince me, without a doubt, that religion is authentic. I just can't accept that there's nothing after death. The thought is horrifying to me. I want to believe, sometimes I'd even tell myself that I believed, but I could only lie to myself for so long. I don't really believe despite my best efforts.

I also think people are just argumentative. It's human nature. Putting those vehement atheism proponents in that light explains, at least to me, why they are so keen to disprove theistic tenets.
I'm handsome. Whoever disagrees with me can go die in a deep, dark hole.
TheGreatAndPowerful
Posts: 3,012
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8/22/2014 7:32:07 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/22/2014 12:50:00 AM, Dr_Obvious wrote:
Spend so much time and effort trying to disprove something they don't believe in?

Because theists spend so much time and energy trying to shove it down our throats, with the force of law if possible.

Let's here what a former atheist has to say.

I was an atheist at one time. And like many atheists, the issue of people believing in God bothered me greatly. What is it about atheists that we would spend so much time, attention, and energy refuting something that we don't believe even exists?! What causes us to do that? When I was an atheist, I attributed my intentions as caring for those poor, delusional people...to help them realize their hope was completely ill-founded. To be honest, I also had another motive. As I challenged those who believed in God, I was deeply curious to see if they could convince me otherwise. Part of my quest was to become free from the question of God. If I could conclusively prove to believers that they were wrong, then the issue is off the table, and I would be free to go about my life.

I didn't realize that the reason the topic of God weighed so heavily on my mind, was because God was pressing the issue. I have come to find out that God wants to be known. He created us with the intention that we would know him. He has surrounded us with evidence of himself and he keeps the question of his existence squarely before us. It was as if I couldn't escape thinking about the possibility of God. In fact, the day I chose to acknowledge God's existence, my prayer began with, "Ok, you win..." It might be that the underlying reason atheists are bothered by people believing in God is because God is actively pursuing them.

I am not the only one who has experienced this. Malcolm Muggeridge, socialist and philosophical author, wrote, "I had a notion that somehow, besides questing, I was being pursued." C.S. Lewis said he remembered, "...night after night, feeling whenever my mind lifted even for a second from my work, the steady, unrelenting approach of Him whom I so earnestly desired not to meet. I gave in, and admitted that God was God, and knelt and prayed: perhaps, that night, the most dejected and reluctant convert in all of England."

Lewis went on to write a book titled, "Surprised by Joy" as a result of knowing God. I too had no expectations other than rightfully admitting God's existence. Yet over the following several months, I became amazed by his love for me.

I strongly urge anyone, who is looking for peace, to read 'Surprised By Joy'. It is probably one of the best books I've ever read. You can order it here.

http://www.amazon.com...

The quotes I used can be found here, along with several reasons to believe in God. May you find Him soon. http://www.everystudent.com...

I have no idea what this has to do with the question. Are you presuming he speaks for all atheists? That we're all secretly theists yearning to be free?
RoderickSpode
Posts: 2,386
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8/22/2014 11:57:05 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/22/2014 7:32:07 AM, TheGreatAndPowerful wrote:
At 8/22/2014 12:50:00 AM, Dr_Obvious wrote:
Spend so much time and effort trying to disprove something they don't believe in?

Because theists spend so much time and energy trying to shove it down our throats, with the force of law if possible.



This seems to be a very common theme regarding this question, but I'm beginning to think this theme involves more catch phrasing than anything else. Can you explain your position in a bit more detail? How do theists generally spend so much time and effort trying to shove it down your throats?

Unless of course you live in a nation with a State religion that pressures it's citizens, how is religion being shoved down your throat personally?
TheGreatAndPowerful
Posts: 3,012
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8/22/2014 12:08:53 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/22/2014 11:57:05 AM, RoderickSpode wrote:
At 8/22/2014 7:32:07 AM, TheGreatAndPowerful wrote:
At 8/22/2014 12:50:00 AM, Dr_Obvious wrote:
Spend so much time and effort trying to disprove something they don't believe in?

Because theists spend so much time and energy trying to shove it down our throats, with the force of law if possible.



This seems to be a very common theme regarding this question, but I'm beginning to think this theme involves more catch phrasing than anything else.

Why? Can you explain your position in a bit more detail?

Can you explain your position in a bit more detail? How do theists generally spend so much time and effort trying to shove it down your throats?

Sure. By putting their god on our currency and in our pledge and making a religious motto the official state motto.

By proposing and passing legislation based on nothing more than the religious tenants, such as DOMA.

By combating science and evidence based teachings in school, such as evolution, cosmology, and legitimate safe sex practices.

By interfering with scientific developments, such as those involving embrionic stem cells or vaccines for the HPV virus.

Unless of course you live in a nation with a State religion that pressures it's citizens, how is religion being shoved down your throat personally?

Day-to-day it isn't, personally. But, you see, I actually care about the welfare of people at large, so something need not adversely affect me personally and immediately (or at all) for me to be concerned about the issue in general, which affects millions of other people personally and immediately.
bulproof
Posts: 25,303
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8/22/2014 12:15:46 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/22/2014 4:02:15 AM, Beastt wrote:
Imagine you lived in a society where nearly everyone believed in fairies. There were huge ornate buildings erected to fairies, bumper stickers, t-shirts, government funds, special laws, wars, bigots, practices of persecution... all devoted to the belief in fairies.

If people found out you didn't believe in fairies, you'd never stand a chance at being elected as a public official. You'd likely lose any teaching job you had. No one would hire you at a day care, and almost no one would trust you. People would look at you with suspicion and disdain. Meanwhile, you sit back and watch while children even in your own neighborhood are going without food, yet the government is providing $71 billion in special grants to fairy worship each and every year. Laws are passed to prevent you from speaking about your lack of fairy belief in the workplace. Your civil rights begin to decay at the hands of people passing laws in hopes of gaining the favor of fairies. Your child is harassed and bullied at school, because his classmates found out he doesn't believe in fairies. You follow a presidential election and see a man with good ideas which appear to be promising to fix some of the most pressing issues of the day; yet you watch him lose to a landslide victory of a man who can't say "nuclear", urges that fish and man can co-exist, and continues reading "My Pet Goat" for seven minutes after he is alerted that the country is under attack on American soil. And then you watch as the majority of your countrymen offer their approval for an illegal war which plunges your country into financial decline, because this president assures the country that he "listens to fairies".

If you had to endure the fallout of such ludicrous beliefs, you'd likely find an immediate sympathy for what atheists endure, and you'd likely form an immediate understanding for why we worry so much about the damage done through outrageously ridiculous beliefs.

Beastt, as far as I can see that behaviour would only exist in America. The real world doesn't care whether you have a religion or not, well other than some alleged muslim places.

In civilised societies atheism isn't even a matter for discussion.
It's that canard.
Only in America.
Skepticalone
Posts: 6,136
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8/22/2014 12:47:24 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/22/2014 12:50:00 AM, Dr_Obvious wrote:
Spend so much time and effort trying to disprove something they don't believe in? Let's here what a former atheist has to say.

I was an atheist at one time. And like many atheists, the issue of people believing in God bothered me greatly. What is it about atheists that we would spend so much time, attention, and energy refuting something that we don't believe even exists?! What causes us to do that? When I was an atheist, I attributed my intentions as caring for those poor, delusional people...to help them realize their hope was completely ill-founded. To be honest, I also had another motive. As I challenged those who believed in God, I was deeply curious to see if they could convince me otherwise. Part of my quest was to become free from the question of God. If I could conclusively prove to believers that they were wrong, then the issue is off the table, and I would be free to go about my life.

I didn't realize that the reason the topic of God weighed so heavily on my mind, was because God was pressing the issue. I have come to find out that God wants to be known. He created us with the intention that we would know him. He has surrounded us with evidence of himself and he keeps the question of his existence squarely before us. It was as if I couldn't escape thinking about the possibility of God. In fact, the day I chose to acknowledge God's existence, my prayer began with, "Ok, you win..." It might be that the underlying reason atheists are bothered by people believing in God is because God is actively pursuing them.

I am not the only one who has experienced this. Malcolm Muggeridge, socialist and philosophical author, wrote, "I had a notion that somehow, besides questing, I was being pursued." C.S. Lewis said he remembered, "...night after night, feeling whenever my mind lifted even for a second from my work, the steady, unrelenting approach of Him whom I so earnestly desired not to meet. I gave in, and admitted that God was God, and knelt and prayed: perhaps, that night, the most dejected and reluctant convert in all of England."

Lewis went on to write a book titled, "Surprised by Joy" as a result of knowing God. I too had no expectations other than rightfully admitting God's existence. Yet over the following several months, I became amazed by his love for me.

I strongly urge anyone, who is looking for peace, to read 'Surprised By Joy'. It is probably one of the best books I've ever read. You can order it here.

http://www.amazon.com...

The quotes I used can be found here, along with several reasons to believe in God. May you find Him soon. http://www.everystudent.com...

It's quite simple, really. Here in America, religion permeates politics. Crucial decisions affecting our society as a whole are subject to an irrational belief in the Christian God. I and other atheists are forced to deal with the aftermath of such a fallacious decision making process involving an apocalyptic worldview in which war (especially against nations with opposing religions or in the defense of Israel) could (imaginary God willing) bring about the end of days and the second coming of Jesus. Not to mention, religion affects decisions about abortion, euthanasia, and there have been attempts to have these silly non-scientific ideas taught as science to our children in our public schools.

So to the suggestion that atheists fight against a belief in God because he is speaking to us I say ,"HA!" I was a theist for thirty five years, and the 'relationship' I had with the alleged creator of everything was totally one sided, completely in my head, and all my doing. If God speaks to theists, then why do we get arguments for God which typically rely on ignorance? Is that the best God has to offer to prove himself, or is that the best the human mind can come up with to support an irrational belief in an invisible friend?
This thread is like eavesdropping on a conversation in a mental asylum. - Bulproof

You can call your invisible friends whatever you like. - Desmac

What the hell kind of coked up sideshow has this thread turned into. - Casten
RoderickSpode
Posts: 2,386
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8/22/2014 12:48:28 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/22/2014 12:08:53 PM, TheGreatAndPowerful wrote:
At 8/22/2014 11:57:05 AM, RoderickSpode wrote:
At 8/22/2014 7:32:07 AM, TheGreatAndPowerful wrote:
At 8/22/2014 12:50:00 AM, Dr_Obvious wrote:
Spend so much time and effort trying to disprove something they don't believe in?

Because theists spend so much time and energy trying to shove it down our throats, with the force of law if possible.



This seems to be a very common theme regarding this question, but I'm beginning to think this theme involves more catch phrasing than anything else.

Why? Can you explain your position in a bit more detail?

Granted I hadn't heard you out (completely), I have yet to see any real detail as to how religion is being forced on society (in fact in numerous ways just the opposite).

Can you explain your position in a bit more detail? How do theists generally spend so much time and effort trying to shove it down your throats?

Sure. By putting their god on our currency and in our pledge and making a religious motto the official state motto.

God has been on our currency since 1864. How exactly is preserving that motto shoving religion down our (or atheist's) throats?

The term God is a theme used historically throughout American history. It's a term used to identify the creator, so the implication as of 1956 was meant to be generic (multiple religious reference), and supported by deists (ceremonial deism). Like it or not, "God" has been a part of American cultural history. The constitution is not an atheist manifesto. It's not meant to cater to atheist whims towards removal of religious reference.

As far as the pledge of allegiance is concerned (a progressive pledge in terms of content), how do you feel about the inclusion of "the flag of the United States Of America"?

By proposing and passing legislation based on nothing more than the religious tenants, such as DOMA.

There are numerous individuals who oppose gay marriage including atheists and gay individuals. Obviously they do not oppose gay marriage for religious reasons. Gay marriage has obviously been objected to for centuries throughout diverse peoples and empires.

By combating science and evidence based teachings in school, such as evolution, cosmology, and legitimate safe sex practices.

Creationists are actually more interested in the inclusion of creationism and ID, not the removal of evolution. It's the evolutionists that seem to be the most militant.

By interfering with scientific developments, such as those involving embrionic stem cells or vaccines for the HPV virus.

Again, there are folks who vary on their opinion on these types of research including atheists. There are obviously people of religion, including Christianity who don't oppose this type of research.

Unless of course you live in a nation with a State religion that pressures it's citizens, how is religion being shoved down your throat personally?

Day-to-day it isn't, personally. But, you see, I actually care about the welfare of people at large, so something need not adversely affect me personally and immediately (or at all) for me to be concerned about the issue in general, which affects millions of other people personally and immediately.
I'm not so sure that you favor freedom of religion.
TheGreatAndPowerful
Posts: 3,012
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8/22/2014 1:11:52 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/22/2014 12:48:28 PM, RoderickSpode wrote:
At 8/22/2014 12:08:53 PM, TheGreatAndPowerful wrote:
At 8/22/2014 11:57:05 AM, RoderickSpode wrote:
At 8/22/2014 7:32:07 AM, TheGreatAndPowerful wrote:
At 8/22/2014 12:50:00 AM, Dr_Obvious wrote:
Spend so much time and effort trying to disprove something they don't believe in?

Because theists spend so much time and energy trying to shove it down our throats, with the force of law if possible.



This seems to be a very common theme regarding this question, but I'm beginning to think this theme involves more catch phrasing than anything else.

Why? Can you explain your position in a bit more detail?

Granted I hadn't heard you out (completely), I have yet to see any real detail as to how religion is being forced on society (in fact in numerous ways just the opposite).

Can you explain your position in a bit more detail? How do theists generally spend so much time and effort trying to shove it down your throats?

Sure. By putting their god on our currency and in our pledge and making a religious motto the official state motto.

God has been on our currency since 1864. How exactly is preserving that motto shoving religion down our (or atheist's) throats?

Because I don't trust your god. This country isn't founded on trusting god. It has no place on currency or pledge.


The term God is a theme used historically throughout American history. It's a term used to identify the creator, so the implication as of 1956 was meant to be generic (multiple religious reference), and supported by deists (ceremonial deism).

No it isn't. It is a term coined by Christians with Christian implication. It's origination on our coins during the Civil War was founded on the belief that the CHRISTIAN God favored the side of the Union. Its further spread during the '50's was a in response to Communism, as if Communists were some sort of vampire warded off by religious icons.

Like it or not, "In God We Trust" has always and only been pushed by Christian denominations as an expression of Christian sentiment. Don't believe me, then just try and get "Allāhu Akbar" on our currency.

Like it or not, "God" has been a part of American cultural history. The constitution is not an atheist manifesto. It's not meant to cater to atheist whims towards removal of religious reference.

I'm not denying the influence of religion on American cultural history, nor have I suggested the constitution is an atheist manifesto (though the word "god" appears not once). However, our government was designed specifically not to cater to specific religions or religious denominations. "E Pluribus Unum" is a better gauge of American culture than "In God We Trust," so not only is it inappropriate, it is inaccurate!

You talk of "removing" religious influence as if it has always been there, built into the foundation of our country. It hasn't. Their introduction was illegitimate to begin with. The fact that they were thrust in doesn't mean we should just accept them. But, we're getting off point. The point was to discuss how religion is being thrust upon the non-religious.

Your statements seem to be in agreement with this, as you suggest atheists wish to remove these religious encroachments. If you believe we wish to remove them, then you must acknowledge that they are there to begin with. So you see what me, and other atheists, are talking about then. Good.

As far as the pledge of allegiance is concerned (a progressive pledge in terms of content), how do you feel about the inclusion of "the flag of the United States Of America"?

I don't see what that would solve. "God" would still be there.

By proposing and passing legislation based on nothing more than the religious tenants, such as DOMA.

There are numerous individuals who oppose gay marriage including atheists and gay individuals. Obviously they do not oppose gay marriage for religious reasons. Gay marriage has obviously been objected to for centuries throughout diverse peoples and empires.

Irrelevant. The primary opposition to gay marriage are Christians. That other people have similar agendas does not erase the fact that Christians also have those agendas and that those agendas will affect people with contrary beliefs.

By combating science and evidence based teachings in school, such as evolution, cosmology, and legitimate safe sex practices.

Creationists are actually more interested in the inclusion of creationism and ID,

Yeah, that's what I said.

not the removal of evolution. It's the evolutionists that seem to be the most militant.

By interfering with scientific developments, such as those involving embrionic stem cells or vaccines for the HPV virus.

Again, there are folks who vary on their opinion on these types of research including atheists. There are obviously people of religion, including Christianity who don't oppose this type of research.

Which doesn't refute what I said. The primary opposition in this field comes from Christians. Your statements that there is some opposition from atheists and some non-opposition from Christians would imply that you already knew that many Christians oppose it. So were you just feigning ignorance before?

Unless of course you live in a nation with a State religion that pressures it's citizens, how is religion being shoved down your throat personally?

Day-to-day it isn't, personally. But, you see, I actually care about the welfare of people at large, so something need not adversely affect me personally and immediately (or at all) for me to be concerned about the issue in general, which affects millions of other people personally and immediately.
I'm not so sure that you favor freedom of religion.

Ok.
Dr_Obvious
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8/22/2014 3:26:01 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/22/2014 5:04:12 AM, MisterMittens wrote:
You are right. I'm an atheist. I don't really actively try to disprove theism, but when a debate arises between me and one of my theist friends on the issue of religion, I would argue in favor of atheism while secretly hoping there was something, some point, which could convince me, without a doubt, that religion is authentic. I just can't accept that there's nothing after death. The thought is horrifying to me. I want to believe, sometimes I'd even tell myself that I believed, but I could only lie to myself for so long. I don't really believe despite my best efforts.

I also think people are just argumentative. It's human nature. Putting those vehement atheism proponents in that light explains, at least to me, why they are so keen to disprove theistic tenets.

Here's what you should do. If you really want to find God, you just have to do one thing. Say a little prayer. It doesn't matter that you're not convinced that God exists. Ask God, "If you really exist, then reveal yourself to me" The Bible tells us that God will reveal himself to those who seek him. But you have to look. From your post, I assume, if you found convincing evidence for God, you'd worship him. There are many online resources that you can use in your search. You can find God, but you have to want it with all of your heart. If you have any questions, just ask.
RoderickSpode
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8/22/2014 4:06:36 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/22/2014 1:11:52 PM, TheGreatAndPowerful wrote:
At 8/22/2014 12:48:28 PM, RoderickSpode wrote:
At 8/22/2014 12:08:53 PM, TheGreatAndPowerful wrote:
At 8/22/2014 11:57:05 AM, RoderickSpode wrote:


God has been on our currency since 1864. How exactly is preserving that motto shoving religion down our (or atheist's) throats?

Because I don't trust your god. This country isn't founded on trusting god. It has no place on currency or pledge.

Suppose I decide the Washington obelisk should be torn because I don't trust Egyptian gods? How about removing all pagan influences on all Capitol structures? Either that, or include pagan deities that originate outside of Europe to make it fair?

The term God is a theme used historically throughout American history. It's a term used to identify the creator, so the implication as of 1956 was meant to be generic (multiple religious reference), and supported by deists (ceremonial deism).

No it isn't. It is a term coined by Christians with Christian implication. It's origination on our coins during the Civil War was founded on the belief that the CHRISTIAN God favored the side of the Union. Its further spread during the '50's was a in response to Communism, as if Communists were some sort of vampire warded off by religious icons.

It doesn't really matter who coined it. It doesn't mean that it's not generic in principle.

Melkote Ramaswamy, an Hindu American scholar, writes that the presence of the phrase "In God we trust" on American currency is a reminder that "there is God everywhere, whether we are conscious or not."[25] In Judaism and Christianity, the official motto "In God we trust" resounds with several verses from the Bible, including Psalm 118:8, Psalm 40:3, Psalm 73:28, and Proverbs 29:25.[26] Feisal Abdul Rauf, a Muslim imam writes that the phrase "In God we trust" also resonates with early Islamic teaching, adapted from Christianity and Judaism, offering two verses from the Qur"an, Quran 3:193 and Quran 2:285.

http://en.wikipedia.org...

Like it or not, "In God We Trust" has always and only been pushed by Christian denominations as an expression of Christian sentiment. Don't believe me, then just try and get "Allāhu Akbar" on our currency.

Please refer back to prior quote and from provided link.

Like it or not, "God" has been a part of American cultural history. The constitution is not an atheist manifesto. It's not meant to cater to atheist whims towards removal of religious reference.

I'm not denying the influence of religion on American cultural history, nor have I suggested the constitution is an atheist manifesto (though the word "god" appears not once). However, our government was designed specifically not to cater to specific religions or religious denominations. "E Pluribus Unum" is a better gauge of American culture than "In God We Trust," so not only is it inappropriate, it is inaccurate!

Really? And what makes you think "E Pluribus Unum" shouldn't come under scrutiny? Did you know that there are those who wish to see the Statue of Liberty taken down because it's not a reflection of true native and multi-ethnic culture (just Euro culture)? How about we tear down the SOL?

That being the case, what makes you think European/Roman-Latin influences should be acceptable in a multi-ethnic nation, many of which recognizes European domination as a major player in American racism?

You talk of "removing" religious influence as if it has always been there, built into the foundation of our country. It hasn't. Their introduction was illegitimate to begin with. The fact that they were thrust in doesn't mean we should just accept them. But, we're getting off point. The point was to discuss how religion is being thrust upon the non-religious.

So you would be okay with "In God We Trust" if it preceded "E Pluribus Unum"?

Your statements seem to be in agreement with this, as you suggest atheists wish to remove these religious encroachments. If you believe we wish to remove them, then you must acknowledge that they are there to begin with. So you see what me, and other atheists, are talking about then. Good.

Your mistake is thinking I acknowledge them as encroachments. I'm also thinking along the lines of attempts to have statues of Jesus removed as is the case for a statue on a ski resort in Montana, prohibiting cheerleaders from placing scriptures on signs as is the situation in a case involving a Texas high school, claims that atheists have become ill due to the cross at Ground Zero, etc.

As far as the pledge of allegiance is concerned (a progressive pledge in terms of content), how do you feel about the inclusion of "the flag of the United States Of America"?

I don't see what that would solve. "God" would still be there.

The question is, do you think that phrase should also be removed being that it's also an addition to the pledge?


Irrelevant. The primary opposition to gay marriage are Christians. That other people have similar agendas does not erase the fact that Christians also have those agendas and that those agendas will affect people with contrary beliefs.

If you're implying that percentage is an issue, where's the cutoff? The majority of people against gay marriage probably hold to Judeo-Christian principles, but let's say the number of atheists against gay marriages increases to 40%. In other words, at what point would it no longer be a religious issue?

By combating science and evidence based teachings in school, such as evolution, cosmology, and legitimate safe sex practices.

Creationists are actually more interested in the inclusion of creationism and ID,

Yeah, that's what I said.

...and I followed up with...

not the removal of evolution. It's the evolutionists that seem to be the most militant.

By interfering with scientific developments, such as those involving embrionic stem cells or vaccines for the HPV virus.

Again, there are folks who vary on their opinion on these types of research including atheists. There are obviously people of religion, including Christianity who don't oppose this type of research.

Which doesn't refute what I said. The primary opposition in this field comes from Christians. Your statements that there is some opposition from atheists and some non-opposition from Christians would imply that you already knew that many Christians oppose it. So were you just feigning ignorance before?

I'm not sure what you mean by feigning ignorance. But again, at what point percentage wise would it no longer be a religious issue? And I actually don't know the real break down (so in that sense there is some ignorance), but why should anyone have to support stem cell research no matter who it is?


Day-to-day it isn't, personally. But, you see, I actually care about the welfare of people at large, so something need not adversely affect me personally and immediately (or at all) for me to be concerned about the issue in general, which affects millions of other people personally and immediately.
I'm not so sure that you favor freedom of religion.

Ok.
I guess I may as well ask, do you support freedom of religion?
Beastt
Posts: 5,135
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8/22/2014 4:14:30 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/22/2014 4:33:21 AM, Dr_Obvious wrote:
At 8/22/2014 4:20:27 AM, Beastt wrote:
At 8/22/2014 4:07:49 AM, Dr_Obvious wrote:
At 8/22/2014 4:02:15 AM, Beastt wrote:
Imagine you lived in a society where nearly everyone believed in fairies. There were huge ornate buildings erected to fairies, bumper stickers, t-shirts, government funds, special laws, wars, bigots, practices of persecution... all devoted to the belief in fairies.

If people found out you didn't believe in fairies, you'd never stand a chance at being elected as a public official. You'd likely lose any teaching job you had. No one would hire you at a day care, and almost no one would trust you. People would look at you with suspicion and disdain. Meanwhile, you sit back and watch while children even in your own neighborhood are going without food, yet the government is providing $71 billion in special grants to fairy worship each and every year. Laws are passed to prevent you from speaking about your lack of fairy belief in the workplace. Your civil rights begin to decay at the hands of people passing laws in hopes of gaining the favor of fairies. Your child is harassed and bullied at school, because his classmates found out he doesn't believe in fairies. You follow a presidential election and see a man with good ideas which appear to be promising to fix some of the most pressing issues of the day; yet you watch him lose to a landslide victory of a man who can't say "nuclear", urges that fish and man can co-exist, and continues reading "My Pet Goat" for seven minutes after he is alerted that the country is under attack on American soil. And then you watch as the majority of your countrymen offer their approval for an illegal war which plunges your country into financial decline, because this president assures the country that he "listens to fairies".

If you had to endure the fallout of such ludicrous beliefs, you'd likely find an immediate sympathy for what atheists endure, and you'd likely form an immediate understanding for why we worry so much about the damage done through outrageously ridiculous beliefs.

It seems, to me, that you are judging an entire group of people from the actions of one person. There's a name for people like that. True Christians don't act that way. There are many false Christians out there. These are the ones you have a problem with. Have you ever even met a real Christian? If you had, you'd know the difference. You might even like them.

The majority of the country provided support for the war - even after the U.N. clearly stated that any such military action would constitute a violation of international law. There may have been one man leading the way, but he couldn't have done it without the support of the majority of the country. And he obtained that by appealing to their superstitions. So no, it's not a matter of judging an entire group for the actions of one person... not even close.

And how many atheists do you suppose were in favor of that invasion? Quite a few, I'd think.
Go ahead and support that. It was obvious that the president was making his plea to the religious. Saying "I listen to God", isn't exactly the fastest way to get atheists to jump to your aid.

And yes, I've known many Christians. I came very close to seeking marriage to one about 10-years ago. She was a Sunday School Teacher, a devout Christian, the director of a church-sponsored Samaritan Center, and as it turned out - a liar and a cheat. I retired less than 2-years ago but before that, my immediate supervisor was a Christian as was her supervisor above her, and his supervisor above him. All three were corrupt liars, and were caught in multiple lies and unethical practices.

These people were not Christians. According to the Bible, Christians obey Gods commandments.
Ask just about any Christian if other proclaimed Christians are "true Christians" and they'll usually claim they aren't. It has reached the point where Christianity isn't one very large religion but over 38,000 much smaller religions. Try to keep in mind that these 38,000 (based on data from 2008) different versions of Christianity are all based on various interpretations of the Bible, and there isn't anything that makes any of them any more right or wrong than the rest... except that NONE of them are supportable through evidence.

Just because someone says they are a Christian doesn't make it true.
That would then include you and everyone you believe is a Christian.

These people you mentioned lied and cheated. These are not the actions of someone who knows Christ.
Sorry, but that's a completely lame statement. You're claiming that you "know Christ" and that's simply not possible. If you look to Christianity before the Council of Nicaea, there were many different versions of Christ being talked about and worshiped by Christians. The Essenes spoke of a Great warrior Jesus, the Carpocrations had a gospel about Jesus the pedophile (pedophilia was considered a virtue in their culture), some of the oldest early champions of the religion - people like Valentinus, Satornilus, Basilides, Cerdo and Meander - were gnostics, there were those who preached of an ascetic Jesus, and none of these can be shown to be any more or less correct than the rest. The Jesus of the Bible was created by men of the 4th century who voted on the Jesus they wanted, and then promoted only that version through the writings they selected to include in the Bible. None of those men ever knew Jesus, or ever knew anyone who knew Jesus.

The Council of Nicaea selected the version of Jesus they most preferred and then selected writings (from a rather large assortment - over 30 in gospels alone), to support that selection. It's no different than if a group today, went back through many ancient manuscripts, selected a completely different set of "books", collected them into a "Bible", and declared their selection to be "the word of God". It would have exactly the same level of credibility and authority as the Bible today. It's not a magical, mystery book. We know how it came to be. If I gathered a collection of popular poetry, and assembled a group of very amateur poets to pick what they liked best, and then dubbed that collection "the poetry of God", would that in any way make it God's preferred poetry? It's the same thing!

Remember what I said about false Christians.
All Christians are "false Christians". There isn't an ounce of evidence that the Jesus selected by the men of the 4th century was any more accurate than any of the depictions they rejected.

The Bible specifically states, that during the end times the Church will become corrupt. Here is an article about it, if you're interested. http://www3.telus.net...
The Bible wasn't written as "the Bible". It's a collection of hand-picked writings by men of the 4th century, described by their peers as unimpressive, knowing nothing about anything, and ignorant. They rejected far more writings than they selected, and they selected writings to meet a particular bias, which was 3-centuries removed from anyone named "Jesus".

- Jesus didn't pick the Bible.
- God didn't pick the Bible.
- People who knew Jesus didn't pick the Bible.
- The Bible was created by picking and choosing what a council of men in the 4th century decided they most preferred (including, slavery, rape, infanticide, honor killings and a God who created evil, Satan and Hell).
- There was so much disagreement over the texts selected for the Bible that the council fought over it for 42-years.
- It holds absolutely zero authority.
- It's very much a 4th century "invention".
"If we believe absurdities we shall commit atrocities." -- Voltaire
SamStevens
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8/22/2014 4:14:35 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/22/2014 4:33:21 AM, Dr_Obvious wrote:
At 8/22/2014 4:20:27 AM, Beastt wrote:
At 8/22/2014 4:07:49 AM, Dr_Obvious wrote:
At 8/22/2014 4:02:15 AM, Beastt wrote:
Imagine you lived in a society where nearly everyone believed in fairies. There were huge ornate buildings erected to fairies, bumper stickers, t-shirts, government funds, special laws, wars, bigots, practices of persecution... all devoted to the belief in fairies.

If people found out you didn't believe in fairies, you'd never stand a chance at being elected as a public official. You'd likely lose any teaching job you had. No one would hire you at a day care, and almost no one would trust you. People would look at you with suspicion and disdain. Meanwhile, you sit back and watch while children even in your own neighborhood are going without food, yet the government is providing $71 billion in special grants to fairy worship each and every year. Laws are passed to prevent you from speaking about your lack of fairy belief in the workplace. Your civil rights begin to decay at the hands of people passing laws in hopes of gaining the favor of fairies. Your child is harassed and bullied at school, because his classmates found out he doesn't believe in fairies. You follow a presidential election and see a man with good ideas which appear to be promising to fix some of the most pressing issues of the day; yet you watch him lose to a landslide victory of a man who can't say "nuclear", urges that fish and man can co-exist, and continues reading "My Pet Goat" for seven minutes after he is alerted that the country is under attack on American soil. And then you watch as the majority of your countrymen offer their approval for an illegal war which plunges your country into financial decline, because this president assures the country that he "listens to fairies".

If you had to endure the fallout of such ludicrous beliefs, you'd likely find an immediate sympathy for what atheists endure, and you'd likely form an immediate understanding for why we worry so much about the damage done through outrageously ridiculous beliefs.

It seems, to me, that you are judging an entire group of people from the actions of one person. There's a name for people like that. True Christians don't act that way. There are many false Christians out there. These are the ones you have a problem with. Have you ever even met a real Christian? If you had, you'd know the difference. You might even like them.

The majority of the country provided support for the war - even after the U.N. clearly stated that any such military action would constitute a violation of international law. There may have been one man leading the way, but he couldn't have done it without the support of the majority of the country. And he obtained that by appealing to their superstitions. So no, it's not a matter of judging an entire group for the actions of one person... not even close.

And how many atheists do you suppose were in favor of that invasion? Quite a few, I'd think.

And yes, I've known many Christians. I came very close to seeking marriage to one about 10-years ago. She was a Sunday School Teacher, a devout Christian, the director of a church-sponsored Samaritan Center, and as it turned out - a liar and a cheat. I retired less than 2-years ago but before that, my immediate supervisor was a Christian as was her supervisor above her, and his supervisor above him. All three were corrupt liars, and were caught in multiple lies and unethical practices.

These people were not Christians. According to the Bible, Christians obey Gods commandments. Just because someone says they are a Christian doesn't make it true. These people you mentioned lied and cheated. These are not the actions of someone who knows Christ. Remember what I said about false Christians. The Bible specifically states, that during the end times the Church will become corrupt. Here is an article about it, if you're interested. http://www3.telus.net...

So when will the end times occur?
"This is the true horror of religion. It allows perfectly decent and sane people to believe by the billions, what only lunatics could believe on their own." Sam Harris
Life asked Death "Why do people love me but hate you?"
Death responded: "Because you are a beautiful lie, and I am the painful truth."
Beastt
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8/22/2014 4:17:01 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/22/2014 5:04:12 AM, MisterMittens wrote:
You are right. I'm an atheist. I don't really actively try to disprove theism, but when a debate arises between me and one of my theist friends on the issue of religion, I would argue in favor of atheism while secretly hoping there was something, some point, which could convince me, without a doubt, that religion is authentic. I just can't accept that there's nothing after death. The thought is horrifying to me. I want to believe, sometimes I'd even tell myself that I believed, but I could only lie to myself for so long. I don't really believe despite my best efforts.

I also think people are just argumentative. It's human nature. Putting those vehement atheism proponents in that light explains, at least to me, why they are so keen to disprove theistic tenets.

I'd like you to think back to the time before you were conceived. How horrible was that? Death will be EXACTLY the same.
"If we believe absurdities we shall commit atrocities." -- Voltaire
ChristianPunk
Posts: 1,710
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8/22/2014 4:20:50 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/22/2014 12:50:00 AM, Dr_Obvious wrote:
Spend so much time and effort trying to disprove something they don't believe in? Let's here what a former atheist has to say.

I was an atheist at one time. And like many atheists, the issue of people believing in God bothered me greatly. What is it about atheists that we would spend so much time, attention, and energy refuting something that we don't believe even exists?! What causes us to do that? When I was an atheist, I attributed my intentions as caring for those poor, delusional people...to help them realize their hope was completely ill-founded. To be honest, I also had another motive. As I challenged those who believed in God, I was deeply curious to see if they could convince me otherwise. Part of my quest was to become free from the question of God. If I could conclusively prove to believers that they were wrong, then the issue is off the table, and I would be free to go about my life.

I didn't realize that the reason the topic of God weighed so heavily on my mind, was because God was pressing the issue. I have come to find out that God wants to be known. He created us with the intention that we would know him. He has surrounded us with evidence of himself and he keeps the question of his existence squarely before us. It was as if I couldn't escape thinking about the possibility of God. In fact, the day I chose to acknowledge God's existence, my prayer began with, "Ok, you win..." It might be that the underlying reason atheists are bothered by people believing in God is because God is actively pursuing them.

I am not the only one who has experienced this. Malcolm Muggeridge, socialist and philosophical author, wrote, "I had a notion that somehow, besides questing, I was being pursued." C.S. Lewis said he remembered, "...night after night, feeling whenever my mind lifted even for a second from my work, the steady, unrelenting approach of Him whom I so earnestly desired not to meet. I gave in, and admitted that God was God, and knelt and prayed: perhaps, that night, the most dejected and reluctant convert in all of England."

Lewis went on to write a book titled, "Surprised by Joy" as a result of knowing God. I too had no expectations other than rightfully admitting God's existence. Yet over the following several months, I became amazed by his love for me.

I strongly urge anyone, who is looking for peace, to read 'Surprised By Joy'. It is probably one of the best books I've ever read. You can order it here.

http://www.amazon.com...

The quotes I used can be found here, along with several reasons to believe in God. May you find Him soon. http://www.everystudent.com...

Scuse me Dr. Obvious. But is your name Troll Obvious?
irreverent_god
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8/22/2014 4:22:01 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/22/2014 4:17:01 PM, Beastt wrote:
At 8/22/2014 5:04:12 AM, MisterMittens wrote:
You are right. I'm an atheist. I don't really actively try to disprove theism, but when a debate arises between me and one of my theist friends on the issue of religion, I would argue in favor of atheism while secretly hoping there was something, some point, which could convince me, without a doubt, that religion is authentic. I just can't accept that there's nothing after death. The thought is horrifying to me. I want to believe, sometimes I'd even tell myself that I believed, but I could only lie to myself for so long. I don't really believe despite my best efforts.

I also think people are just argumentative. It's human nature. Putting those vehement atheism proponents in that light explains, at least to me, why they are so keen to disprove theistic tenets.

I'd like you to think back to the time before you were conceived. How horrible was that? Death will be EXACTLY the same.

This post is both insensitive and bigoted against the memorially challenged and people with illnesses and impediments such as Alzheimer's. I'm off to report this post as abusive.
Logic and Reason are the precursor to Justice.
Faith and zealotry are the precursor to Folly.
LogicalLunatic
Posts: 1,633
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8/22/2014 4:32:46 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/22/2014 4:02:15 AM, Beastt wrote:
Imagine you lived in a society where nearly everyone believed in fairies. There were huge ornate buildings erected to fairies, bumper stickers, t-shirts, government funds, special laws, wars, bigots, practices of persecution... all devoted to the belief in fairies.

If people found out you didn't believe in fairies, you'd never stand a chance at being elected as a public official. You'd likely lose any teaching job you had. No one would hire you at a day care, and almost no one would trust you. People would look at you with suspicion and disdain. Meanwhile, you sit back and watch while children even in your own neighborhood are going without food, yet the government is providing $71 billion in special grants to fairy worship each and every year. Laws are passed to prevent you from speaking about your lack of fairy belief in the workplace. Your civil rights begin to decay at the hands of people passing laws in hopes of gaining the favor of fairies. Your child is harassed and bullied at school, because his classmates found out he doesn't believe in fairies. You follow a presidential election and see a man with good ideas which appear to be promising to fix some of the most pressing issues of the day; yet you watch him lose to a landslide victory of a man who can't say "nuclear", urges that fish and man can co-exist, and continues reading "My Pet Goat" for seven minutes after he is alerted that the country is under attack on American soil. And then you watch as the majority of your countrymen offer their approval for an illegal war which plunges your country into financial decline, because this president assures the country that he "listens to fairies".

If you had to endure the fallout of such ludicrous beliefs, you'd likely find an immediate sympathy for what atheists endure, and you'd likely form an immediate understanding for why we worry so much about the damage done through outrageously ridiculous beliefs.

O yu por por athist yu ar persicootid biy teh evul bigit relijus Crischuns an dat es wy yu maik mor munee then Crischun bigit evul crooseder stoopid evul bigits hu ar evul beecaws tey are evul an tey ar en powwer dat es wy tey git kikd owtof scools fer sayeeng "bless you" an wy tey ar trown en prizun fer foloweeng relijus cunvicshuns an nut endorseeng homseual wedeeng wet caik an yu ar beeng sint tu evul Jorj Boosh Gwontonimo Cap fer beeng athist an dat es wy wii ar tolkeeng on intorrnett ryt nou an athists DO NOT evver persicoot evul Crischun dat es wy Nort Coreea es fild wit evul Crischun bigit an dere ar no athits en Nort Coreea an teh Chynuh NEVER crakd doun onn hows cherch so chekmait crischun bigits o hou I pitee yu miy bruter en Charles Darwin!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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CaedaSun
Posts: 7
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8/22/2014 5:05:59 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/22/2014 12:50:00 AM, Dr_Obvious wrote:
Spend so much time and effort trying to disprove something they don't believe in? Let's here what a former atheist has to say.

I was an atheist at one time. And like many atheists, the issue of people believing in God bothered me greatly. What is it about atheists that we would spend so much time, attention, and energy refuting something that we don't believe even exists?! What causes us to do that? When I was an atheist, I attributed my intentions as caring for those poor, delusional people...to help them realize their hope was completely ill-founded. To be honest, I also had another motive. As I challenged those who believed in God, I was deeply curious to see if they could convince me otherwise. Part of my quest was to become free from the question of God. If I could conclusively prove to believers that they were wrong, then the issue is off the table, and I would be free to go about my life.

I didn't realize that the reason the topic of God weighed so heavily on my mind, was because God was pressing the issue. I have come to find out that God wants to be known. He created us with the intention that we would know him. He has surrounded us with evidence of himself and he keeps the question of his existence squarely before us. It was as if I couldn't escape thinking about the possibility of God. In fact, the day I chose to acknowledge God's existence, my prayer began with, "Ok, you win..." It might be that the underlying reason atheists are bothered by people believing in God is because God is actively pursuing them.

I am not the only one who has experienced this. Malcolm Muggeridge, socialist and philosophical author, wrote, "I had a notion that somehow, besides questing, I was being pursued." C.S. Lewis said he remembered, "...night after night, feeling whenever my mind lifted even for a second from my work, the steady, unrelenting approach of Him whom I so earnestly desired not to meet. I gave in, and admitted that God was God, and knelt and prayed: perhaps, that night, the most dejected and reluctant convert in all of England."

Lewis went on to write a book titled, "Surprised by Joy" as a result of knowing God. I too had no expectations other than rightfully admitting God's existence. Yet over the following several months, I became amazed by his love for me.

I strongly urge anyone, who is looking for peace, to read 'Surprised By Joy'. It is probably one of the best books I've ever read. You can order it here.

http://www.amazon.com...

The quotes I used can be found here, along with several reasons to believe in God. May you find Him soon. http://www.everystudent.com...

I am not an Atheist nor am I religious but I think that this statement is a little bias--I think if you could see reason you'd agree to that. For the obvious fact that this was from your perspective and personal experience. Not every Atheist is driven by the same things... not every person, that is, is driven by the same things ever. Similar things, yes, of course, but certainly not everyone together, per say. Now, I respect, entirely, that you have found God. To each their own. That is not a sell-out statement, on my part, I mean that genuinely and with more meaning that might be apparent. Here's what life is like to all of us from what I can tell and see: Religion dominates the world. It has for many thousands of years in varying degrees and in varying places around the planet. Religion as an entity has tried to conquer and swallow up the world. There is neither a positive or negative connotation to those words, I am sorry if I offend, however--but I mean to say that there has been war and preaching and so forth with the intention of spreading whatever Religion you can think of. Certainly the most popular ones. We're at a point in time where, socially, we know much about what is going on in the world. That is to say, there is much public documents about one thing or another, regardless of it's reliability. The world is a place that is finding itself right now. Not much is hidden anymore--that is, one part of the world is more easily accessible than it was just a few years ago, for example.

Now, that said, people have this opportunity to... shall we say, take a stand where they think they should take a stand. I think that's great. But what is happening is this clash--naturally, as the result of everyone suddenly able to make such clear desicions about something. Or quick descisions. As many Athesists tend to always point out--the suffering of the world is their fuel. Not every Atheist but many. Others if not also... they "just" don't feel or see anything that indicates a "God." There could be plenty of other reasons why, of course, but these are some. Now, with Religion, say with the more... positive Religious person... there's, well, "God is beautiful and kind and everywhere, can't you see that?" And I believe that this is because, well, you CAN feel that. You're more of a from-the-heart kind of person than an Atheist. Not suggesting, at all, that Atheists are not kind and wonderful people that feel deeply. But I mean... I think there's no this or that. There's actually, in my humble little opinion, a very beautiful truth that lies smoothly inbetween this two, dare I say, off-balanced ideas.

Inbetween an Atheist and a Religious-being, I have more opinions that side with the Atheist. However, I think there is much more to explore and be open about that just one's side of this argument.
Dr_Obvious
Posts: 551
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8/22/2014 5:05:59 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/22/2014 4:20:50 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
At 8/22/2014 12:50:00 AM, Dr_Obvious wrote:
Spend so much time and effort trying to disprove something they don't believe in? Let's here what a former atheist has to say.

I was an atheist at one time. And like many atheists, the issue of people believing in God bothered me greatly. What is it about atheists that we would spend so much time, attention, and energy refuting something that we don't believe even exists?! What causes us to do that? When I was an atheist, I attributed my intentions as caring for those poor, delusional people...to help them realize their hope was completely ill-founded. To be honest, I also had another motive. As I challenged those who believed in God, I was deeply curious to see if they could convince me otherwise. Part of my quest was to become free from the question of God. If I could conclusively prove to believers that they were wrong, then the issue is off the table, and I would be free to go about my life.

I didn't realize that the reason the topic of God weighed so heavily on my mind, was because God was pressing the issue. I have come to find out that God wants to be known. He created us with the intention that we would know him. He has surrounded us with evidence of himself and he keeps the question of his existence squarely before us. It was as if I couldn't escape thinking about the possibility of God. In fact, the day I chose to acknowledge God's existence, my prayer began with, "Ok, you win..." It might be that the underlying reason atheists are bothered by people believing in God is because God is actively pursuing them.

I am not the only one who has experienced this. Malcolm Muggeridge, socialist and philosophical author, wrote, "I had a notion that somehow, besides questing, I was being pursued." C.S. Lewis said he remembered, "...night after night, feeling whenever my mind lifted even for a second from my work, the steady, unrelenting approach of Him whom I so earnestly desired not to meet. I gave in, and admitted that God was God, and knelt and prayed: perhaps, that night, the most dejected and reluctant convert in all of England."

Lewis went on to write a book titled, "Surprised by Joy" as a result of knowing God. I too had no expectations other than rightfully admitting God's existence. Yet over the following several months, I became amazed by his love for me.

I strongly urge anyone, who is looking for peace, to read 'Surprised By Joy'. It is probably one of the best books I've ever read. You can order it here.

http://www.amazon.com...

The quotes I used can be found here, along with several reasons to believe in God. May you find Him soon. http://www.everystudent.com...

Scuse me Dr. Obvious. But is your name Troll Obvious?

What's wrong? Don't you know how to read?
Dr_Obvious
Posts: 551
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8/22/2014 5:14:05 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/22/2014 4:14:35 PM, SamStevens wrote:
At 8/22/2014 4:33:21 AM, Dr_Obvious wrote:
At 8/22/2014 4:20:27 AM, Beastt wrote:
At 8/22/2014 4:07:49 AM, Dr_Obvious wrote:
At 8/22/2014 4:02:15 AM, Beastt wrote:
Imagine you lived in a society where nearly everyone believed in fairies. There were huge ornate buildings erected to fairies, bumper stickers, t-shirts, government funds, special laws, wars, bigots, practices of persecution... all devoted to the belief in fairies.

If people found out you didn't believe in fairies, you'd never stand a chance at being elected as a public official. You'd likely lose any teaching job you had. No one would hire you at a day care, and almost no one would trust you. People would look at you with suspicion and disdain. Meanwhile, you sit back and watch while children even in your own neighborhood are going without food, yet the government is providing $71 billion in special grants to fairy worship each and every year. Laws are passed to prevent you from speaking about your lack of fairy belief in the workplace. Your civil rights begin to decay at the hands of people passing laws in hopes of gaining the favor of fairies. Your child is harassed and bullied at school, because his classmates found out he doesn't believe in fairies. You follow a presidential election and see a man with good ideas which appear to be promising to fix some of the most pressing issues of the day; yet you watch him lose to a landslide victory of a man who can't say "nuclear", urges that fish and man can co-exist, and continues reading "My Pet Goat" for seven minutes after he is alerted that the country is under attack on American soil. And then you watch as the majority of your countrymen offer their approval for an illegal war which plunges your country into financial decline, because this president assures the country that he "listens to fairies".

If you had to endure the fallout of such ludicrous beliefs, you'd likely find an immediate sympathy for what atheists endure, and you'd likely form an immediate understanding for why we worry so much about the damage done through outrageously ridiculous beliefs.

It seems, to me, that you are judging an entire group of people from the actions of one person. There's a name for people like that. True Christians don't act that way. There are many false Christians out there. These are the ones you have a problem with. Have you ever even met a real Christian? If you had, you'd know the difference. You might even like them.

The majority of the country provided support for the war - even after the U.N. clearly stated that any such military action would constitute a violation of international law. There may have been one man leading the way, but he couldn't have done it without the support of the majority of the country. And he obtained that by appealing to their superstitions. So no, it's not a matter of judging an entire group for the actions of one person... not even close.

And how many atheists do you suppose were in favor of that invasion? Quite a few, I'd think.

And yes, I've known many Christians. I came very close to seeking marriage to one about 10-years ago. She was a Sunday School Teacher, a devout Christian, the director of a church-sponsored Samaritan Center, and as it turned out - a liar and a cheat. I retired less than 2-years ago but before that, my immediate supervisor was a Christian as was her supervisor above her, and his supervisor above him. All three were corrupt liars, and were caught in multiple lies and unethical practices.

These people were not Christians. According to the Bible, Christians obey Gods commandments. Just because someone says they are a Christian doesn't make it true. These people you mentioned lied and cheated. These are not the actions of someone who knows Christ. Remember what I said about false Christians. The Bible specifically states, that during the end times the Church will become corrupt. Here is an article about it, if you're interested. http://www3.telus.net...

So when will the end times occur?

If you're really interested, no one knows exactly when it will happen. but the restoration of Israel was one of the signs that it will be very soon. The Bible says that the generation that witnessed that event will not die before Christs return. Also, look at events in the Middle East. Sometime soon the Arabs will move on Israel. The U.S. used to be their strongest ally. Now it looks like even we will abandon them.
SamStevens
Posts: 3,819
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8/22/2014 5:36:01 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/22/2014 5:14:05 PM, Dr_Obvious wrote:
At 8/22/2014 4:14:35 PM, SamStevens wrote:
At 8/22/2014 4:33:21 AM, Dr_Obvious wrote:
At 8/22/2014 4:20:27 AM, Beastt wrote:
At 8/22/2014 4:07:49 AM, Dr_Obvious wrote:
At 8/22/2014 4:02:15 AM, Beastt wrote:
Imagine you lived in a society where nearly everyone believed in fairies. There were huge ornate buildings erected to fairies, bumper stickers, t-shirts, government funds, special laws, wars, bigots, practices of persecution... all devoted to the belief in fairies.

If people found out you didn't believe in fairies, you'd never stand a chance at being elected as a public official. You'd likely lose any teaching job you had. No one would hire you at a day care, and almost no one would trust you. People would look at you with suspicion and disdain. Meanwhile, you sit back and watch while children even in your own neighborhood are going without food, yet the government is providing $71 billion in special grants to fairy worship each and every year. Laws are passed to prevent you from speaking about your lack of fairy belief in the workplace. Your civil rights begin to decay at the hands of people passing laws in hopes of gaining the favor of fairies. Your child is harassed and bullied at school, because his classmates found out he doesn't believe in fairies. You follow a presidential election and see a man with good ideas which appear to be promising to fix some of the most pressing issues of the day; yet you watch him lose to a landslide victory of a man who can't say "nuclear", urges that fish and man can co-exist, and continues reading "My Pet Goat" for seven minutes after he is alerted that the country is under attack on American soil. And then you watch as the majority of your countrymen offer their approval for an illegal war which plunges your country into financial decline, because this president assures the country that he "listens to fairies".

If you had to endure the fallout of such ludicrous beliefs, you'd likely find an immediate sympathy for what atheists endure, and you'd likely form an immediate understanding for why we worry so much about the damage done through outrageously ridiculous beliefs.

It seems, to me, that you are judging an entire group of people from the actions of one person. There's a name for people like that. True Christians don't act that way. There are many false Christians out there. These are the ones you have a problem with. Have you ever even met a real Christian? If you had, you'd know the difference. You might even like them.

The majority of the country provided support for the war - even after the U.N. clearly stated that any such military action would constitute a violation of international law. There may have been one man leading the way, but he couldn't have done it without the support of the majority of the country. And he obtained that by appealing to their superstitions. So no, it's not a matter of judging an entire group for the actions of one person... not even close.

And how many atheists do you suppose were in favor of that invasion? Quite a few, I'd think.

And yes, I've known many Christians. I came very close to seeking marriage to one about 10-years ago. She was a Sunday School Teacher, a devout Christian, the director of a church-sponsored Samaritan Center, and as it turned out - a liar and a cheat. I retired less than 2-years ago but before that, my immediate supervisor was a Christian as was her supervisor above her, and his supervisor above him. All three were corrupt liars, and were caught in multiple lies and unethical practices.

These people were not Christians. According to the Bible, Christians obey Gods commandments. Just because someone says they are a Christian doesn't make it true. These people you mentioned lied and cheated. These are not the actions of someone who knows Christ. Remember what I said about false Christians. The Bible specifically states, that during the end times the Church will become corrupt. Here is an article about it, if you're interested. http://www3.telus.net...

So when will the end times occur?

If you're really interested, no one knows exactly when it will happen. but the restoration of Israel was one of the signs that it will be very soon. The Bible says that the generation that witnessed that event will not die before Christs return. Also, look at events in the Middle East. Sometime soon the Arabs will move on Israel. The U.S. used to be their strongest ally. Now it looks like even we will abandon them.

Well, I be waiting and watching for the end of days/ dooms day to occur.
"This is the true horror of religion. It allows perfectly decent and sane people to believe by the billions, what only lunatics could believe on their own." Sam Harris
Life asked Death "Why do people love me but hate you?"
Death responded: "Because you are a beautiful lie, and I am the painful truth."
Beastt
Posts: 5,135
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8/22/2014 5:38:10 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/22/2014 4:14:35 PM, SamStevens wrote:

So when will the end times occur?
According to the Bible, they will occur before the death of all of the disciples.

Matthew 16:28
Mark 13:30
Luke 21:32
Matthew 24:34

(They're just a tad late. Christians LOVE to deny the Bible.)
"If we believe absurdities we shall commit atrocities." -- Voltaire
Beastt
Posts: 5,135
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8/22/2014 5:46:25 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/22/2014 5:36:01 PM, SamStevens wrote:
At 8/22/2014 5:14:05 PM, Dr_Obvious wrote:
At 8/22/2014 4:14:35 PM, SamStevens wrote:
At 8/22/2014 4:33:21 AM, Dr_Obvious wrote:
At 8/22/2014 4:20:27 AM, Beastt wrote:
At 8/22/2014 4:07:49 AM, Dr_Obvious wrote:
At 8/22/2014 4:02:15 AM, Beastt wrote:
Imagine you lived in a society where nearly everyone believed in fairies. There were huge ornate buildings erected to fairies, bumper stickers, t-shirts, government funds, special laws, wars, bigots, practices of persecution... all devoted to the belief in fairies.

If people found out you didn't believe in fairies, you'd never stand a chance at being elected as a public official. You'd likely lose any teaching job you had. No one would hire you at a day care, and almost no one would trust you. People would look at you with suspicion and disdain. Meanwhile, you sit back and watch while children even in your own neighborhood are going without food, yet the government is providing $71 billion in special grants to fairy worship each and every year. Laws are passed to prevent you from speaking about your lack of fairy belief in the workplace. Your civil rights begin to decay at the hands of people passing laws in hopes of gaining the favor of fairies. Your child is harassed and bullied at school, because his classmates found out he doesn't believe in fairies. You follow a presidential election and see a man with good ideas which appear to be promising to fix some of the most pressing issues of the day; yet you watch him lose to a landslide victory of a man who can't say "nuclear", urges that fish and man can co-exist, and continues reading "My Pet Goat" for seven minutes after he is alerted that the country is under attack on American soil. And then you watch as the majority of your countrymen offer their approval for an illegal war which plunges your country into financial decline, because this president assures the country that he "listens to fairies".

If you had to endure the fallout of such ludicrous beliefs, you'd likely find an immediate sympathy for what atheists endure, and you'd likely form an immediate understanding for why we worry so much about the damage done through outrageously ridiculous beliefs.

It seems, to me, that you are judging an entire group of people from the actions of one person. There's a name for people like that. True Christians don't act that way. There are many false Christians out there. These are the ones you have a problem with. Have you ever even met a real Christian? If you had, you'd know the difference. You might even like them.

The majority of the country provided support for the war - even after the U.N. clearly stated that any such military action would constitute a violation of international law. There may have been one man leading the way, but he couldn't have done it without the support of the majority of the country. And he obtained that by appealing to their superstitions. So no, it's not a matter of judging an entire group for the actions of one person... not even close.

And how many atheists do you suppose were in favor of that invasion? Quite a few, I'd think.

And yes, I've known many Christians. I came very close to seeking marriage to one about 10-years ago. She was a Sunday School Teacher, a devout Christian, the director of a church-sponsored Samaritan Center, and as it turned out - a liar and a cheat. I retired less than 2-years ago but before that, my immediate supervisor was a Christian as was her supervisor above her, and his supervisor above him. All three were corrupt liars, and were caught in multiple lies and unethical practices.

These people were not Christians. According to the Bible, Christians obey Gods commandments. Just because someone says they are a Christian doesn't make it true. These people you mentioned lied and cheated. These are not the actions of someone who knows Christ. Remember what I said about false Christians. The Bible specifically states, that during the end times the Church will become corrupt. Here is an article about it, if you're interested. http://www3.telus.net...

So when will the end times occur?

If you're really interested, no one knows exactly when it will happen. but the restoration of Israel was one of the signs that it will be very soon. The Bible says that the generation that witnessed that event will not die before Christs return. Also, look at events in the Middle East. Sometime soon the Arabs will move on Israel. The U.S. used to be their strongest ally. Now it looks like even we will abandon them.

Well, I be waiting and watching for the end of days/ dooms day to occur.

Matthew 16:27-28
For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.
--
Mark 13:30
"Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done.
--

Luke 21:32
"Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.

--

Matthew 24:34
Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

Of course one needs to read the preceding verses to assure that it's talking about the end times and the return of Jesus for the rapture, but as is shown in Matthew 16:27, that's what it's referencing. (Of course Christians deny the Bible every time you show that it's wrong.)
"If we believe absurdities we shall commit atrocities." -- Voltaire