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Scientific proof for the existence of God.

Dr_Obvious
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8/22/2014 1:52:46 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
The first law of thermodynamics states that matter and energy cannot be created or destroyed. This is a scientific fact.

Energy and matter exist. Where did they come from? Some claim that they always existed. The second law of thermodynamics refutes this. If energy always existed, there would be no energy, due to entropy. This is another scientific fact.

Since matter and energy cannot be created, and they could not have always existed, the only explanation is a supernatural act of creation.

An all powerful being is the only way to get around the laws of the universe, which He created from nothing. No other explanation is scientifically valid.
Illegalcombatant
Posts: 4,008
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8/22/2014 2:10:36 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/22/2014 1:52:46 AM, Dr_Obvious wrote:
The first law of thermodynamics states that matter and energy cannot be created or destroyed. This is a scientific fact.

Energy and matter exist. Where did they come from? Some claim that they always existed. The second law of thermodynamics refutes this. If energy always existed, there would be no energy, due to entropy. This is another scientific fact.


Since matter and energy cannot be created, and they could not have always existed, the only explanation is a supernatural act of creation.

An all powerful being is the only way to get around the laws of the universe, which He created from nothing. No other explanation is scientifically valid.

Well I think you are being loose with what is or is not a scientifically valid answer but........let's try some other options..........

1) Energy has always existed but has existed for a finite amount of time

This would neither violate energy is not created nor would it violate entropy since in a finite amount of time there would be a time where entropy has not yet being completed.

2) Even if there is a supernatural act

it doesn't mean it was done by a personal being
It doesn't mean it was all powerful
It doesn't mean it cares whether you live or die or suffer or are happy
It doesn't mean it's a "he"
"Seems like another attempt to insert God into areas our knowledge has yet to penetrate. You figure God would be bigger than the gaps of our ignorance." Drafterman 19/5/12
debateuser
Posts: 1,094
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8/22/2014 3:12:04 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/22/2014 1:52:46 AM, Dr_Obvious wrote:
The first law of thermodynamics states that matter and energy cannot be created or destroyed. This is a scientific fact.

Energy and matter exist. Where did they come from? Some claim that they always existed. The second law of thermodynamics refutes this. If energy always existed, there would be no energy, due to entropy. This is another scientific fact.

Since matter and energy cannot be created, and they could not have always existed, the only explanation is a supernatural act of creation.

An all powerful being is the only way to get around the laws of the universe, which He created from nothing. No other explanation is scientifically valid.

Here you are assuming some things. Firstly that a creator always existed and that creator is from nothing and nothingness. Secondly you are saying that a creator created energy. This violates the first law of thermodynamics you are mentioning.

As far as the second law of thermodynamics is concerened , you misinterpreting it. This is explained in the following website

http://rationalwiki.org...
Scientific Errors In Religion : Atheists are right that religion is a myth

Read this topic on below link:

http://www.debate.org...
Dr_Obvious
Posts: 551
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8/22/2014 3:39:51 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/22/2014 2:10:36 AM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
At 8/22/2014 1:52:46 AM, Dr_Obvious wrote:
The first law of thermodynamics states that matter and energy cannot be created or destroyed. This is a scientific fact.

Energy and matter exist. Where did they come from? Some claim that they always existed. The second law of thermodynamics refutes this. If energy always existed, there would be no energy, due to entropy. This is another scientific fact.


Since matter and energy cannot be created, and they could not have always existed, the only explanation is a supernatural act of creation.

An all powerful being is the only way to get around the laws of the universe, which He created from nothing. No other explanation is scientifically valid.

Well I think you are being loose with what is or is not a scientifically valid answer but........let's try some other options..........

1) Energy has always existed but has existed for a finite amount of time

That makes no sense at all.

This would neither violate energy is not created nor would it violate entropy since in a finite amount of time there would be a time where entropy has not yet being completed.

2) Even if there is a supernatural act

it doesn't mean it was done by a personal being
It doesn't mean it was all powerful
It doesn't mean it cares whether you live or die or suffer or are happy
It doesn't mean it's a "he"

Matter and energy cannot be created. This is a scientific fact. Energy could not have always existed. The amount of available energy is always decreasing. This is also a scientific fact If it always existed, entropy would have been happening for an infinite amount of time. Thus, there would be no energy.

The act of creation would require an act of will. Nothing happens without something to cause it to happen. Without will, there is no action. From nothing, comes nothing. The universe exists, therefore it was created by an act of will.
Dr_Obvious
Posts: 551
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8/22/2014 3:48:06 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/22/2014 3:12:04 AM, debateuser wrote:
At 8/22/2014 1:52:46 AM, Dr_Obvious wrote:
The first law of thermodynamics states that matter and energy cannot be created or destroyed. This is a scientific fact.

Energy and matter exist. Where did they come from? Some claim that they always existed. The second law of thermodynamics refutes this. If energy always existed, there would be no energy, due to entropy. This is another scientific fact.

Since matter and energy cannot be created, and they could not have always existed, the only explanation is a supernatural act of creation.

An all powerful being is the only way to get around the laws of the universe, which He created from nothing. No other explanation is scientifically valid.

Here you are assuming some things. Firstly that a creator always existed and that creator is from nothing and nothingness. Secondly you are saying that a creator created energy. This violates the first law of thermodynamics you are mentioning.

No. It does not. If God created the universe, that means he also created the laws by which it operates. He is not bound by those laws. He is above them.

As far as the second law of thermodynamics is concerened , you misinterpreting it. This is explained in the following website

http://rationalwiki.org...

The amount of available energy is always decreasing. This is the law of entropy. If energy always existed, there would be no energy, since entropy has been acting upon it for an infinite amount of time. Therefore, it could not have existed forever.
Illegalcombatant
Posts: 4,008
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8/22/2014 3:50:47 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/22/2014 3:39:51 AM, Dr_Obvious wrote:
At 8/22/2014 2:10:36 AM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
At 8/22/2014 1:52:46 AM, Dr_Obvious wrote:
The first law of thermodynamics states that matter and energy cannot be created or destroyed. This is a scientific fact.

Energy and matter exist. Where did they come from? Some claim that they always existed. The second law of thermodynamics refutes this. If energy always existed, there would be no energy, due to entropy. This is another scientific fact.


Since matter and energy cannot be created, and they could not have always existed, the only explanation is a supernatural act of creation.

An all powerful being is the only way to get around the laws of the universe, which He created from nothing. No other explanation is scientifically valid.

Well I think you are being loose with what is or is not a scientifically valid answer but........let's try some other options..........

1) Energy has always existed but has existed for a finite amount of time

That makes no sense at all.

It's easy to just say something doesn't make sense to dismiss it especially when it refutes your original argument.

So can you explain why it makes no sense or is it just you don't like it ?


This would neither violate energy is not created nor would it violate entropy since in a finite amount of time there would be a time where entropy has not yet being completed.

2) Even if there is a supernatural act

it doesn't mean it was done by a personal being
It doesn't mean it was all powerful
It doesn't mean it cares whether you live or die or suffer or are happy
It doesn't mean it's a "he"

Matter and energy cannot be created. This is a scientific fact. Energy could not have always existed. The amount of available energy is always decreasing. This is also a scientific fact If it always existed, entropy would have been happening for an infinite amount of time. Thus, there would be no energy.

Like I said before, that is not the case if energy exists for a FINITE amount of time rather than an infinite amount.


The act of creation would require an act of will. Nothing happens without something to cause it to happen. Without will, there is no action. From nothing, comes nothing. The universe exists, therefore it was created by an act of will.

There is nothing there that justifies something must be an act of a will/agent causation.
"Seems like another attempt to insert God into areas our knowledge has yet to penetrate. You figure God would be bigger than the gaps of our ignorance." Drafterman 19/5/12
Dr_Obvious
Posts: 551
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8/22/2014 3:59:45 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/22/2014 3:50:47 AM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
At 8/22/2014 3:39:51 AM, Dr_Obvious wrote:
At 8/22/2014 2:10:36 AM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
At 8/22/2014 1:52:46 AM, Dr_Obvious wrote:
The first law of thermodynamics states that matter and energy cannot be created or destroyed. This is a scientific fact.

Energy and matter exist. Where did they come from? Some claim that they always existed. The second law of thermodynamics refutes this. If energy always existed, there would be no energy, due to entropy. This is another scientific fact.


Since matter and energy cannot be created, and they could not have always existed, the only explanation is a supernatural act of creation.

An all powerful being is the only way to get around the laws of the universe, which He created from nothing. No other explanation is scientifically valid.

Well I think you are being loose with what is or is not a scientifically valid answer but........let's try some other options..........

1) Energy has always existed but has existed for a finite amount of time

That makes no sense at all.

It's easy to just say something doesn't make sense to dismiss it especially when it refutes your original argument.

So can you explain why it makes no sense or is it just you don't like it ?

You say that energy always existed, but only for a finite time. This is a contradiction.


This would neither violate energy is not created nor would it violate entropy since in a finite amount of time there would be a time where entropy has not yet being completed.

2) Even if there is a supernatural act

it doesn't mean it was done by a personal being
It doesn't mean it was all powerful
It doesn't mean it cares whether you live or die or suffer or are happy
It doesn't mean it's a "he"

Matter and energy cannot be created. This is a scientific fact. Energy could not have always existed. The amount of available energy is always decreasing. This is also a scientific fact If it always existed, entropy would have been happening for an infinite amount of time. Thus, there would be no energy.

Like I said before, that is not the case if energy exists for a FINITE amount of time rather than an infinite amount.

If it only existed for a finite amount of time, that would mean that it was created, at some point and time. Something that science tells us is impossible.


The act of creation would require an act of will. Nothing happens without something to cause it to happen. Without will, there is no action. From nothing, comes nothing. The universe exists, therefore it was created by an act of will.

There is nothing there that justifies something must be an act of a will/agent causation.
Illegalcombatant
Posts: 4,008
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8/22/2014 4:03:07 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/22/2014 3:59:45 AM, Dr_Obvious wrote:
At 8/22/2014 3:50:47 AM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
At 8/22/2014 3:39:51 AM, Dr_Obvious wrote:
At 8/22/2014 2:10:36 AM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
At 8/22/2014 1:52:46 AM, Dr_Obvious wrote:
The first law of thermodynamics states that matter and energy cannot be created or destroyed. This is a scientific fact.

Energy and matter exist. Where did they come from? Some claim that they always existed. The second law of thermodynamics refutes this. If energy always existed, there would be no energy, due to entropy. This is another scientific fact.


Since matter and energy cannot be created, and they could not have always existed, the only explanation is a supernatural act of creation.

An all powerful being is the only way to get around the laws of the universe, which He created from nothing. No other explanation is scientifically valid.

Well I think you are being loose with what is or is not a scientifically valid answer but........let's try some other options..........

1) Energy has always existed but has existed for a finite amount of time

That makes no sense at all.

It's easy to just say something doesn't make sense to dismiss it especially when it refutes your original argument.

So can you explain why it makes no sense or is it just you don't like it ?

You say that energy always existed, but only for a finite time. This is a contradiction.

Are you sure about that ? explain how those two things are a contradiction or are you just assuming that energy always existing for a finite time is a contradiction.



This would neither violate energy is not created nor would it violate entropy since in a finite amount of time there would be a time where entropy has not yet being completed.

2) Even if there is a supernatural act

it doesn't mean it was done by a personal being
It doesn't mean it was all powerful
It doesn't mean it cares whether you live or die or suffer or are happy
It doesn't mean it's a "he"

Matter and energy cannot be created. This is a scientific fact. Energy could not have always existed. The amount of available energy is always decreasing. This is also a scientific fact If it always existed, entropy would have been happening for an infinite amount of time. Thus, there would be no energy.

Like I said before, that is not the case if energy exists for a FINITE amount of time rather than an infinite amount.

If it only existed for a finite amount of time, that would mean that it was created, at some point and time. Something that science tells us is impossible.

You sure about that ? explain why that must be the case.



The act of creation would require an act of will. Nothing happens without something to cause it to happen. Without will, there is no action. From nothing, comes nothing. The universe exists, therefore it was created by an act of will.

There is nothing there that justifies something must be an act of a will/agent causation.
"Seems like another attempt to insert God into areas our knowledge has yet to penetrate. You figure God would be bigger than the gaps of our ignorance." Drafterman 19/5/12
Dr_Obvious
Posts: 551
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8/22/2014 4:19:26 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/22/2014 4:03:07 AM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
At 8/22/2014 3:59:45 AM, Dr_Obvious wrote:
At 8/22/2014 3:50:47 AM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
At 8/22/2014 3:39:51 AM, Dr_Obvious wrote:
At 8/22/2014 2:10:36 AM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
At 8/22/2014 1:52:46 AM, Dr_Obvious wrote:
The first law of thermodynamics states that matter and energy cannot be created or destroyed. This is a scientific fact.

Energy and matter exist. Where did they come from? Some claim that they always existed. The second law of thermodynamics refutes this. If energy always existed, there would be no energy, due to entropy. This is another scientific fact.


Since matter and energy cannot be created, and they could not have always existed, the only explanation is a supernatural act of creation.

An all powerful being is the only way to get around the laws of the universe, which He created from nothing. No other explanation is scientifically valid.

Well I think you are being loose with what is or is not a scientifically valid answer but........let's try some other options..........

1) Energy has always existed but has existed for a finite amount of time

That makes no sense at all.

It's easy to just say something doesn't make sense to dismiss it especially when it refutes your original argument.

So can you explain why it makes no sense or is it just you don't like it ?

You say that energy always existed, but only for a finite time. This is a contradiction.

Are you sure about that ? explain how those two things are a contradiction or are you just assuming that energy always existing for a finite time is a contradiction.

To say that something always existed, means that it had no beginning. I think you need to go back to school, so you can use words in an intelligible manner.




This would neither violate energy is not created nor would it violate entropy since in a finite amount of time there would be a time where entropy has not yet being completed.

2) Even if there is a supernatural act

it doesn't mean it was done by a personal being
It doesn't mean it was all powerful
It doesn't mean it cares whether you live or die or suffer or are happy
It doesn't mean it's a "he"

Matter and energy cannot be created. This is a scientific fact. Energy could not have always existed. The amount of available energy is always decreasing. This is also a scientific fact If it always existed, entropy would have been happening for an infinite amount of time. Thus, there would be no energy.

Like I said before, that is not the case if energy exists for a FINITE amount of time rather than an infinite amount.

If it only existed for a finite amount of time, that would mean that it was created, at some point and time. Something that science tells us is impossible.

You sure about that ? explain why that must be the case.

Looks like you need to take that science class, again, that you probably missed in high school. Science tells us that energy cannot be created. That means that they also claim that it has always existed. As I showed you earlier, that is refuted by the second law of thermodynamics.



The act of creation would require an act of will. Nothing happens without something to cause it to happen. Without will, there is no action. From nothing, comes nothing. The universe exists, therefore it was created by an act of will.

There is nothing there that justifies something must be an act of a will/agent causation.

Are you familiar with the law of cause and effect? Apparently not. Nothing happens without something else causing it to happen. A cause is an action. Action requires will. Will requires intelligence. The universe did not create itself. It is an impossibility, based on everything science knows. If it could not create itself, someone must have created it.
Diviance
Posts: 26
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8/22/2014 4:19:47 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/22/2014 1:52:46 AM, Dr_Obvious wrote:
The first law of thermodynamics states that matter and energy cannot be created or destroyed. This is a scientific fact.


Specifically, the first law of thermodynamics says that energy in an isolated system is constant. Its form can change, but it cannot be created nor destroyed.

I went ahead and marked the key part of the definition for you.

Energy and matter exist. Where did they come from? Some claim that they always existed. The second law of thermodynamics refutes this. If energy always existed, there would be no energy, due to entropy. This is another scientific fact.


We are uncertain where they come from originally. However, the second law of thermodynamics says that entropy in an isolated system can only increase, never decrease. It will ultimately arrive at a state of maximum entropy, also called thermodynamic equilibrium. So no, the second law of thermodynamics does not refute the idea that energy and matter have always existed as there is no data prior to the existence of the universe, so any claims as to whether it started as an isolated system during or before the singularity is simply a claim that cannot be backed with evidence.

Since matter and energy cannot be created, and they could not have always existed, the only explanation is a supernatural act of creation.

An all powerful being is the only way to get around the laws of the universe, which He created from nothing. No other explanation is scientifically valid.

This is called special pleading. It is a logical fallacy, because you are saying these things are impossible... except for this one thing. Your explanation is not scientifically valid... it is not even science. It is nothing more than baseless conjecture.
debateuser
Posts: 1,094
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8/22/2014 10:03:06 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/22/2014 3:48:06 AM, Dr_Obvious wrote:
At 8/22/2014 3:12:04 AM, debateuser wrote:
At 8/22/2014 1:52:46 AM, Dr_Obvious wrote:
The first law of thermodynamics states that matter and energy cannot be created or destroyed. This is a scientific fact.

Energy and matter exist. Where did they come from? Some claim that they always existed. The second law of thermodynamics refutes this. If energy always existed, there would be no energy, due to entropy. This is another scientific fact.

Since matter and energy cannot be created, and they could not have always existed, the only explanation is a supernatural act of creation.

An all powerful being is the only way to get around the laws of the universe, which He created from nothing. No other explanation is scientifically valid.

Here you are assuming some things. Firstly that a creator always existed and that creator is from nothing and nothingness. Secondly you are saying that a creator created energy. This violates the first law of thermodynamics you are mentioning.

No. It does not. If God created the universe, that means he also created the laws by which it operates. He is not bound by those laws. He is above them.

That is the point in this system energy can not be created. Did the alleged God create it somewhere else. Lol

As far as the second law of thermodynamics is concerened , you misinterpreting it. This is explained in the following website

http://rationalwiki.org...

The amount of available energy is always decreasing. This is the law of entropy. If energy always existed, there would be no energy, since entropy has been acting upon it for an infinite amount of time. Therefore, it could not have existed forever.

From the reference I mentioned:
the second law of thermodynamics implies that the universe will always become increasingly uniform; that is, heat (transfer of energy in a way other than work) will spread until the entire universe has the same temperature and energy level (between systems in thermal contact, heat always transfers from the system at a higher temperature to the one at a lower temperature until balance is achieved), and forces will continue to work until a universal balance has been achieved.
The Second Law is a law of statistical mechanics, rather than a fundamental law of nature. As such, it is not entirely impossible to be violated; however, its violation is extremely unlikely. But because its violation is not impossible, only extremely unlikely, it turns out that over extremely long timeframes, a violation may eventually occur
Scientific Errors In Religion : Atheists are right that religion is a myth

Read this topic on below link:

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bulproof
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8/22/2014 10:08:01 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/22/2014 1:52:46 AM, Dr_Obvious wrote:
The first law of thermodynamics states that matter and energy cannot be created or destroyed. This is a scientific fact.

Energy and matter exist. Where did they come from? Some claim that they always existed. The second law of thermodynamics refutes this. If energy always existed, there would be no energy, due to entropy. This is another scientific fact.

Since matter and energy cannot be created, and they could not have always existed, the only explanation is a supernatural act of creation.

An all powerful being is the only way to get around the laws of the universe, which He created from nothing. No other explanation is scientifically valid.

That all powerful being is what? Perhaps an octopus with ten eyes?
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
Skepticalone
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8/22/2014 2:13:41 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/22/2014 1:52:46 AM, Dr_Obvious wrote:
The first law of thermodynamics states that matter and energy cannot be created or destroyed. This is a scientific fact.

Energy and matter exist. Where did they come from? Some claim that they always existed. The second law of thermodynamics refutes this. If energy always existed, there would be no energy, due to entropy. This is another scientific fact.

You're forgetting the 1st LOT states matter cannot be destroyed. So your conclusion of "no energy" is invalid.

Since matter and energy cannot be created, and they could not have always existed, the only explanation is a supernatural act of creation.

An all powerful being is the only way to get around the laws of the universe, which He created from nothing. No other explanation is scientifically valid.

First off, the "laws of the universe" or physical laws are human descriptions of empirical observations. God didn't "create" them. Secondly, if you're suggesting God has always existed, then I would suggest a much simpler explanation: Energy has always existed. As an added bonus, I don't have to bend any physical laws or posit anything supernaturally complex lacking the support of empirical observation.
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jh1234l
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8/22/2014 2:17:52 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/22/2014 3:48:06 AM, Dr_Obvious wrote:
At 8/22/2014 3:12:04 AM, debateuser wrote:
At 8/22/2014 1:52:46 AM, Dr_Obvious wrote:
The first law of thermodynamics states that matter and energy cannot be created or destroyed. This is a scientific fact.

Energy and matter exist. Where did they come from? Some claim that they always existed. The second law of thermodynamics refutes this. If energy always existed, there would be no energy, due to entropy. This is another scientific fact.

Since matter and energy cannot be created, and they could not have always existed, the only explanation is a supernatural act of creation.

An all powerful being is the only way to get around the laws of the universe, which He created from nothing. No other explanation is scientifically valid.

Here you are assuming some things. Firstly that a creator always existed and that creator is from nothing and nothingness. Secondly you are saying that a creator created energy. This violates the first law of thermodynamics you are mentioning.

No. It does not. If God created the universe, that means he also created the laws by which it operates. He is not bound by those laws. He is above them.

The problem is, quantum fluctuations can violate the first law of thermodynamics.


As far as the second law of thermodynamics is concerened , you misinterpreting it. This is explained in the following website

http://rationalwiki.org...

The amount of available energy is always decreasing. This is the law of entropy. If energy always existed, there would be no energy, since entropy has been acting upon it for an infinite amount of time. Therefore, it could not have existed forever.
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LogicalLunatic
Posts: 1,633
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8/22/2014 8:28:53 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/22/2014 2:10:36 AM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
At 8/22/2014 1:52:46 AM, Dr_Obvious wrote:
The first law of thermodynamics states that matter and energy cannot be created or destroyed. This is a scientific fact.

Energy and matter exist. Where did they come from? Some claim that they always existed. The second law of thermodynamics refutes this. If energy always existed, there would be no energy, due to entropy. This is another scientific fact.


Since matter and energy cannot be created, and they could not have always existed, the only explanation is a supernatural act of creation.

An all powerful being is the only way to get around the laws of the universe, which He created from nothing. No other explanation is scientifically valid.

Well I think you are being loose with what is or is not a scientifically valid answer but........let's try some other options..........

1) Energy has always existed but has existed for a finite amount of time

This would neither violate energy is not created nor would it violate entropy since in a finite amount of time there would be a time where entropy has not yet being completed.

2) Even if there is a supernatural act

it doesn't mean it was done by a personal being
It doesn't mean it was all powerful
It doesn't mean it cares whether you live or die or suffer or are happy
It doesn't mean it's a "he"

Ah, you mean that the energy existed eternally in a dormant state and then it "activated", in a sense?
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Beastt
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8/23/2014 12:20:05 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/22/2014 1:52:46 AM, Dr_Obvious wrote:
The first law of thermodynamics states that matter and energy cannot be created or destroyed. This is a scientific fact.

Energy and matter exist. Where did they come from? Some claim that they always existed. The second law of thermodynamics refutes this.
An that's where you make your error. You're referring to heat death, which is only a problem in an environment of matter and energy. If the environment is energy only, the energy is not expended and does not decline.

If energy always existed, there would be no energy, due to entropy. This is another scientific fact.
Incorrect. If matter/energy always existed, then entropy would eventually lead to heat death. But this is not a problem in an energy-only universe. And yet, because energy can convert to matter (which appears to have happened 13.7 billion years ago), an energy-only universe can persist indefinitely, and then produce a matter/energy universe.

You don't seem to understand what entropy is. It's actually the process of energy converting to matter. As this happens, you end up with less and less energy, and more and more matter. Eventually you run out of energy to convert and the result is known as "heat death". But, in an energy-only universe, the only way to lose energy would be for the energy to simply vanish. Look again to the First Law of Thermodynamics. Can energy just vanish? Can it be destroyed? No?

Then we can't lose energy from an energy-only environment. And if we can't lose energy, there is no entropy.

Since matter and energy cannot be created, and they could not have always existed, the only explanation is a supernatural act of creation.
No, because you're saying "Creation isn't possible, therefore it was an act of creation". It's a self-refuting claim.

An all powerful being is the only way to get around the laws of the universe, which He created from nothing. No other explanation is scientifically valid.
Once again, you're not understanding either the Second law of thermodynamics, or the principle of an energy-only universe which can persist indefinitely without advancing toward heat-death. Therefore, your conclusion is shown to be wrong.
"If we believe absurdities we shall commit atrocities." -- Voltaire
Beastt
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8/23/2014 12:33:21 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/22/2014 3:39:51 AM, Dr_Obvious wrote:

Matter and energy cannot be created. This is a scientific fact.
Actually, it is a "Law of Physics". There is no such thing as a "scientific fact". If you subscribe to the idea of facts (properties which are - and will always, always, always remain absolutely and unwaveringly true), then you're violating science methodology which states that new evidence can lead to new conclusions. As long as new evidence can lead to new conclusions - and we can never be certain that more evidence doesn't exist, we can never absolutely state anything to be a irrefutable "fact".

But I do agree with you that matter and energy cannot be created. Given the absolute compliance with that observation in relation to all evidence gathered on the matter, it makes no sense to then turn around and say, "so matter/energy was created..." (by anything). You're simply contradicting what you have just stated to be scientifically accurate.

Energy could not have always existed. The amount of available energy is always decreasing.
The amount of energy in a closed system where both matter and energy exist, or where energy is converting to matter (entropy), is always decreasing. But in an energy-only universe, there is no reduction in energy. The only way to reduce energy in an energy-only universe, is if energy can be destroyed. And we've already established that it cannot be destroyed.

You can argue this out until you're blue in the face. An energy-only state eliminates entropy. And once you eliminate entropy, there is no supportable claim that energy cannot persist indefinitely. In fact, the First of Thermodynamics insists that as long as energy is not declining (which can't happen unless energy converts to matter), the level of energy must remain stable, and no entropy can take place.
"If we believe absurdities we shall commit atrocities." -- Voltaire
Dr_Obvious
Posts: 551
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8/23/2014 11:02:24 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/23/2014 12:33:21 AM, Beastt wrote:
At 8/22/2014 3:39:51 AM, Dr_Obvious wrote:

Matter and energy cannot be created. This is a scientific fact.
Actually, it is a "Law of Physics". There is no such thing as a "scientific fact". If you subscribe to the idea of facts (properties which are - and will always, always, always remain absolutely and unwaveringly true), then you're violating science methodology which states that new evidence can lead to new conclusions. As long as new evidence can lead to new conclusions - and we can never be certain that more evidence doesn't exist, we can never absolutely state anything to be a irrefutable "fact".

But I do agree with you that matter and energy cannot be created. Given the absolute compliance with that observation in relation to all evidence gathered on the matter, it makes no sense to then turn around and say, "so matter/energy was created..." (by anything). You're simply contradicting what you have just stated to be scientifically accurate.

Energy could not have always existed. The amount of available energy is always decreasing.
The amount of energy in a closed system where both matter and energy exist, or where energy is converting to matter (entropy), is always decreasing. But in an energy-only universe, there is no reduction in energy. The only way to reduce energy in an energy-only universe, is if energy can be destroyed. And we've already established that it cannot be destroyed.

You can argue this out until you're blue in the face. An energy-only state eliminates entropy. And once you eliminate entropy, there is no supportable claim that energy cannot persist indefinitely. In fact, the First of Thermodynamics insists that as long as energy is not declining (which can't happen unless energy converts to matter), the level of energy must remain stable, and no entropy can take place.

Say you are right. Where did this energy come from? In the universe we live in, everything needs a cause. Besides, you're overlooking the simple fact that energy cannot exists without a universe to exists in. So you really can't claim that energy predates the universe, which had a beginning.
Beastt
Posts: 5,135
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8/23/2014 11:16:10 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/23/2014 11:02:24 AM, Dr_Obvious wrote:
At 8/23/2014 12:33:21 AM, Beastt wrote:
At 8/22/2014 3:39:51 AM, Dr_Obvious wrote:

Matter and energy cannot be created. This is a scientific fact.
Actually, it is a "Law of Physics". There is no such thing as a "scientific fact". If you subscribe to the idea of facts (properties which are - and will always, always, always remain absolutely and unwaveringly true), then you're violating science methodology which states that new evidence can lead to new conclusions. As long as new evidence can lead to new conclusions - and we can never be certain that more evidence doesn't exist, we can never absolutely state anything to be a irrefutable "fact".

But I do agree with you that matter and energy cannot be created. Given the absolute compliance with that observation in relation to all evidence gathered on the matter, it makes no sense to then turn around and say, "so matter/energy was created..." (by anything). You're simply contradicting what you have just stated to be scientifically accurate.

Energy could not have always existed. The amount of available energy is always decreasing.
The amount of energy in a closed system where both matter and energy exist, or where energy is converting to matter (entropy), is always decreasing. But in an energy-only universe, there is no reduction in energy. The only way to reduce energy in an energy-only universe, is if energy can be destroyed. And we've already established that it cannot be destroyed.

You can argue this out until you're blue in the face. An energy-only state eliminates entropy. And once you eliminate entropy, there is no supportable claim that energy cannot persist indefinitely. In fact, the First of Thermodynamics insists that as long as energy is not declining (which can't happen unless energy converts to matter), the level of energy must remain stable, and no entropy can take place.

Say you are right. Where did this energy come from? In the universe we live in, everything needs a cause. Besides, you're overlooking the simple fact that energy cannot exists without a universe to exists in. So you really can't claim that energy predates the universe, which had a beginning.
No, no, The universe AS WE KNOW IT had a beginning. That doesn't mean it didn't transform out of the pre-existing, which may have been energy-only, or an unknown third state matter, which may or may not require the existence of space-time.

And there is no concept consistent with "come from" aside from the universe. If the entire universe is a singularity, that is still all of the "from" there is. You're hoping to invent a story to invent a creator, to explain the complexity you believe requires a creator, and yet, you exclude this most complex of all entities from the need for a creator.
"If we believe absurdities we shall commit atrocities." -- Voltaire
Dr_Obvious
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8/23/2014 11:23:43 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/23/2014 12:20:05 AM, Beastt wrote:
At 8/22/2014 1:52:46 AM, Dr_Obvious wrote:
The first law of thermodynamics states that matter and energy cannot be created or destroyed. This is a scientific fact.

Energy and matter exist. Where did they come from? Some claim that they always existed. The second law of thermodynamics refutes this.
An that's where you make your error. You're referring to heat death, which is only a problem in an environment of matter and energy. If the environment is energy only, the energy is not expended and does not decline.

If energy always existed, there would be no energy, due to entropy. This is another scientific fact.
Incorrect. If matter/energy always existed, then entropy would eventually lead to heat death. But this is not a problem in an energy-only universe. And yet, because energy can convert to matter (which appears to have happened 13.7 billion years ago), an energy-only universe can persist indefinitely, and then produce a matter/energy universe.

You don't seem to understand what entropy is. It's actually the process of energy converting to matter. As this happens, you end up with less and less energy, and more and more matter. Eventually you run out of energy to convert and the result is known as "heat death". But, in an energy-only universe, the only way to lose energy would be for the energy to simply vanish. Look again to the First Law of Thermodynamics. Can energy just vanish? Can it be destroyed? No?

Then we can't lose energy from an energy-only environment. And if we can't lose energy, there is no entropy.

Since matter and energy cannot be created, and they could not have always existed, the only explanation is a supernatural act of creation.
No, because you're saying "Creation isn't possible, therefore it was an act of creation". It's a self-refuting claim.

An all powerful being is the only way to get around the laws of the universe, which He created from nothing. No other explanation is scientifically valid.
Once again, you're not understanding either the Second law of thermodynamics, or the principle of an energy-only universe which can persist indefinitely without advancing toward heat-death. Therefore, your conclusion is shown to be wrong.

Here.s a question for you. Is there any evidence for this energy only universe? I think there is not. When discussing things of this temporal universe, we should stick to the confines of said universe. Not some mythical universe, that may or may not exist. If you had any evidence for this energy only universe, then we could discuss it. But you don't.

So. According to everything we know about how the REAL universe works, we can see that things are winding down to the heat death you mentioned. This is why energy could not have always existed. The universe also had a beginning. This is the point at which energy and matter were created, neither of which can exists without a universe to exist in. Now that I think about it, if there was no time or space before the big bang, WHERE and WHEN did it happen? Also your claim that God violated the laws of physics when he created energy is laughable. He created those laws, did he not? He's God. He can do anything he wants.
Dr_Obvious
Posts: 551
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8/23/2014 11:36:57 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/23/2014 11:16:10 AM, Beastt wrote:
At 8/23/2014 11:02:24 AM, Dr_Obvious wrote:
At 8/23/2014 12:33:21 AM, Beastt wrote:
At 8/22/2014 3:39:51 AM, Dr_Obvious wrote:

Matter and energy cannot be created. This is a scientific fact.
Actually, it is a "Law of Physics". There is no such thing as a "scientific fact". If you subscribe to the idea of facts (properties which are - and will always, always, always remain absolutely and unwaveringly true), then you're violating science methodology which states that new evidence can lead to new conclusions. As long as new evidence can lead to new conclusions - and we can never be certain that more evidence doesn't exist, we can never absolutely state anything to be a irrefutable "fact".

But I do agree with you that matter and energy cannot be created. Given the absolute compliance with that observation in relation to all evidence gathered on the matter, it makes no sense to then turn around and say, "so matter/energy was created..." (by anything). You're simply contradicting what you have just stated to be scientifically accurate.

Energy could not have always existed. The amount of available energy is always decreasing.
The amount of energy in a closed system where both matter and energy exist, or where energy is converting to matter (entropy), is always decreasing. But in an energy-only universe, there is no reduction in energy. The only way to reduce energy in an energy-only universe, is if energy can be destroyed. And we've already established that it cannot be destroyed.

You can argue this out until you're blue in the face. An energy-only state eliminates entropy. And once you eliminate entropy, there is no supportable claim that energy cannot persist indefinitely. In fact, the First of Thermodynamics insists that as long as energy is not declining (which can't happen unless energy converts to matter), the level of energy must remain stable, and no entropy can take place.

Say you are right. Where did this energy come from? In the universe we live in, everything needs a cause. Besides, you're overlooking the simple fact that energy cannot exists without a universe to exists in. So you really can't claim that energy predates the universe, which had a beginning.
No, no, The universe AS WE KNOW IT had a beginning. That doesn't mean it didn't transform out of the pre-existing, which may have been energy-only, or an unknown third state matter, which may or may not require the existence of space-time.

And there is no concept consistent with "come from" aside from the universe. If the entire universe is a singularity, that is still all of the "from" there is. You're hoping to invent a story to invent a creator, to explain the complexity you believe requires a creator, and yet, you exclude this most complex of all entities from the need for a creator.

Everything composed of energy and matter had a beginning. That includes the entire universe. You accuse me of inventing stories? You just claimed that there was a universe before this one. Sounds like something someone made up. Does it not? And if there was a previous universe, where did it come from? And the one before that, and the one before that. There had to be a first cause. That cause is God. It makes more sense that anything I've heard from the scientific community.
bulproof
Posts: 25,168
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8/23/2014 11:41:54 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
Argument:
Matter and energy can neither be created nor destroyed. (FACT)
Matter and energy were created.
Thence god.

I don't know how anybody can't be convinced by that. ROFL
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
POPOO5560
Posts: 2,481
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8/23/2014 1:44:03 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/23/2014 11:36:57 AM, Dr_Obvious wrote:
At 8/23/2014 11:16:10 AM, Beastt wrote:
At 8/23/2014 11:02:24 AM, Dr_Obvious wrote:
At 8/23/2014 12:33:21 AM, Beastt wrote:
At 8/22/2014 3:39:51 AM, Dr_Obvious wrote:

Matter and energy cannot be created. This is a scientific fact.
Actually, it is a "Law of Physics". There is no such thing as a "scientific fact". If you subscribe to the idea of facts (properties which are - and will always, always, always remain absolutely and unwaveringly true), then you're violating science methodology which states that new evidence can lead to new conclusions. As long as new evidence can lead to new conclusions - and we can never be certain that more evidence doesn't exist, we can never absolutely state anything to be a irrefutable "fact".

But I do agree with you that matter and energy cannot be created. Given the absolute compliance with that observation in relation to all evidence gathered on the matter, it makes no sense to then turn around and say, "so matter/energy was created..." (by anything). You're simply contradicting what you have just stated to be scientifically accurate.

Energy could not have always existed. The amount of available energy is always decreasing.
The amount of energy in a closed system where both matter and energy exist, or where energy is converting to matter (entropy), is always decreasing. But in an energy-only universe, there is no reduction in energy. The only way to reduce energy in an energy-only universe, is if energy can be destroyed. And we've already established that it cannot be destroyed.

You can argue this out until you're blue in the face. An energy-only state eliminates entropy. And once you eliminate entropy, there is no supportable claim that energy cannot persist indefinitely. In fact, the First of Thermodynamics insists that as long as energy is not declining (which can't happen unless energy converts to matter), the level of energy must remain stable, and no entropy can take place.

Say you are right. Where did this energy come from? In the universe we live in, everything needs a cause. Besides, you're overlooking the simple fact that energy cannot exists without a universe to exists in. So you really can't claim that energy predates the universe, which had a beginning.
No, no, The universe AS WE KNOW IT had a beginning. That doesn't mean it didn't transform out of the pre-existing, which may have been energy-only, or an unknown third state matter, which may or may not require the existence of space-time.

And there is no concept consistent with "come from" aside from the universe. If the entire universe is a singularity, that is still all of the "from" there is. You're hoping to invent a story to invent a creator, to explain the complexity you believe requires a creator, and yet, you exclude this most complex of all entities from the need for a creator.

Everything composed of energy and matter had a beginning. That includes the entire universe. You accuse me of inventing stories? You just claimed that there was a universe before this one. Sounds like something someone made up. Does it not? And if there was a previous universe, where did it come from? And the one before that, and the one before that. There had to be a first cause. That cause is God. It makes more sense that anything I've heard from the scientific community.

And what you say about Lawrence Krauss?? his explanation of the universe from "nothing"?? for his there was no scape no time no energy just a quantum fields... and from that all came.. i know there are some physicists criticizing him... but his explanation really amazing to admit.....
Never fart near dog
Dr_Obvious
Posts: 551
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8/23/2014 6:21:27 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/23/2014 1:44:03 PM, POPOO5560 wrote:
At 8/23/2014 11:36:57 AM, Dr_Obvious wrote:
At 8/23/2014 11:16:10 AM, Beastt wrote:
At 8/23/2014 11:02:24 AM, Dr_Obvious wrote:
At 8/23/2014 12:33:21 AM, Beastt wrote:
At 8/22/2014 3:39:51 AM, Dr_Obvious wrote:

Matter and energy cannot be created. This is a scientific fact.
Actually, it is a "Law of Physics". There is no such thing as a "scientific fact". If you subscribe to the idea of facts (properties which are - and will always, always, always remain absolutely and unwaveringly true), then you're violating science methodology which states that new evidence can lead to new conclusions. As long as new evidence can lead to new conclusions - and we can never be certain that more evidence doesn't exist, we can never absolutely state anything to be a irrefutable "fact".

But I do agree with you that matter and energy cannot be created. Given the absolute compliance with that observation in relation to all evidence gathered on the matter, it makes no sense to then turn around and say, "so matter/energy was created..." (by anything). You're simply contradicting what you have just stated to be scientifically accurate.

Energy could not have always existed. The amount of available energy is always decreasing.
The amount of energy in a closed system where both matter and energy exist, or where energy is converting to matter (entropy), is always decreasing. But in an energy-only universe, there is no reduction in energy. The only way to reduce energy in an energy-only universe, is if energy can be destroyed. And we've already established that it cannot be destroyed.

You can argue this out until you're blue in the face. An energy-only state eliminates entropy. And once you eliminate entropy, there is no supportable claim that energy cannot persist indefinitely. In fact, the First of Thermodynamics insists that as long as energy is not declining (which can't happen unless energy converts to matter), the level of energy must remain stable, and no entropy can take place.

Say you are right. Where did this energy come from? In the universe we live in, everything needs a cause. Besides, you're overlooking the simple fact that energy cannot exists without a universe to exists in. So you really can't claim that energy predates the universe, which had a beginning.
No, no, The universe AS WE KNOW IT had a beginning. That doesn't mean it didn't transform out of the pre-existing, which may have been energy-only, or an unknown third state matter, which may or may not require the existence of space-time.

And there is no concept consistent with "come from" aside from the universe. If the entire universe is a singularity, that is still all of the "from" there is. You're hoping to invent a story to invent a creator, to explain the complexity you believe requires a creator, and yet, you exclude this most complex of all entities from the need for a creator.

Everything composed of energy and matter had a beginning. That includes the entire universe. You accuse me of inventing stories? You just claimed that there was a universe before this one. Sounds like something someone made up. Does it not? And if there was a previous universe, where did it come from? And the one before that, and the one before that. There had to be a first cause. That cause is God. It makes more sense that anything I've heard from the scientific community.

And what you say about Lawrence Krauss?? his explanation of the universe from "nothing"?? for his there was no scape no time no energy just a quantum fields... and from that all came.. i know there are some physicists criticizing him... but his explanation really amazing to admit.....

It's nothing but pure speculation.
Beastt
Posts: 5,135
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8/23/2014 7:25:59 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/23/2014 11:36:57 AM, Dr_Obvious wrote:
At 8/23/2014 11:16:10 AM, Beastt wrote:
At 8/23/2014 11:02:24 AM, Dr_Obvious wrote:
At 8/23/2014 12:33:21 AM, Beastt wrote:
At 8/22/2014 3:39:51 AM, Dr_Obvious wrote:

Matter and energy cannot be created. This is a scientific fact.
Actually, it is a "Law of Physics". There is no such thing as a "scientific fact". If you subscribe to the idea of facts (properties which are - and will always, always, always remain absolutely and unwaveringly true), then you're violating science methodology which states that new evidence can lead to new conclusions. As long as new evidence can lead to new conclusions - and we can never be certain that more evidence doesn't exist, we can never absolutely state anything to be a irrefutable "fact".

But I do agree with you that matter and energy cannot be created. Given the absolute compliance with that observation in relation to all evidence gathered on the matter, it makes no sense to then turn around and say, "so matter/energy was created..." (by anything). You're simply contradicting what you have just stated to be scientifically accurate.

Energy could not have always existed. The amount of available energy is always decreasing.
The amount of energy in a closed system where both matter and energy exist, or where energy is converting to matter (entropy), is always decreasing. But in an energy-only universe, there is no reduction in energy. The only way to reduce energy in an energy-only universe, is if energy can be destroyed. And we've already established that it cannot be destroyed.

You can argue this out until you're blue in the face. An energy-only state eliminates entropy. And once you eliminate entropy, there is no supportable claim that energy cannot persist indefinitely. In fact, the First of Thermodynamics insists that as long as energy is not declining (which can't happen unless energy converts to matter), the level of energy must remain stable, and no entropy can take place.

Say you are right. Where did this energy come from? In the universe we live in, everything needs a cause. Besides, you're overlooking the simple fact that energy cannot exists without a universe to exists in. So you really can't claim that energy predates the universe, which had a beginning.
No, no, The universe AS WE KNOW IT had a beginning. That doesn't mean it didn't transform out of the pre-existing, which may have been energy-only, or an unknown third state matter, which may or may not require the existence of space-time.

And there is no concept consistent with "come from" aside from the universe. If the entire universe is a singularity, that is still all of the "from" there is. You're hoping to invent a story to invent a creator, to explain the complexity you believe requires a creator, and yet, you exclude this most complex of all entities from the need for a creator.

Everything composed of energy and matter had a beginning.
That is a false assumption. It is no more or less appropriate to suggest a default state of nothingness, than to assume a default state of somethingness.
If the existence of something has to be explained, then we would have an equal need to explain the non-existence of anything. You're saying that because we live in a state of somethingness, the existence of that something must be explained. Were we to somehow exist in a state of nothingness, it would be just as necessary (or unnecessary), to explain how that state of nothingness came to be. It's a binary potential - it must be one way or the other. it is the way It is, rather than the way it isn't, simply because that is the way it is. That does not require, nor can it have, an explanation.

That includes the entire universe.
That is a false conclusion, resulting from your false assumption (above)

You accuse me of inventing stories? You just claimed that there was a universe before this one.
I did not. You're not understanding what I'm explaining. I'm telling you that this universe has always existed, but has existed in a state of flux, and remains in a state of flux. The universe is not now, nor has it ever been, stagnant and perfectly stable. It is expanding, moving, changing. At some point it will likely reach a state beyond which equilibrium cannot be maintained - perhaps at heat death, perhaps at a point of maximal expansion, perhaps something else. Do you think that the entire universe will simply cease to be at that point? Or will it undergo some primary change in configuration and continue to exist? It's matter and energy, so it cannot simply cease to exist. If half of the existing matter turned to anti-matter, would the resulting annihilation of the universe result in nothingness? What is the result of an encounter between matter and anti-matter? Energy, right? And what is the second state of energy? It's matter. So what do we still have... the entire universe, but in a different form.

Sounds like something someone made up. Does it not?
It only sounds that way because you do not understand. And that's either the result of a limited capacity to understand, or a lack of desire to understand.

And if there was a previous universe, where did it come from?
That is a nonsensical question. There is no "from" from which a universe can come. The universe is everything. It is; what exists. And no one said there was a previous universe. I'm saying that all of the evidence points to this universe in an eternal state of existence, because it cannot, not exist.

And the one before that, and the one before that. There had to be a first cause. That cause is God. It makes more sense that anything I've heard from the scientific community.
There is only one. It can transform, but it cannot cease to be, because it exists. And that which exists cannot cease to exist. That which does not exist, cannot begin to exist. Again; the First Law of Thermodynamics.

The problem here is that you have set God as your goal. And you only seek a course of argument which leads to your goal. Your goal should be the truth, whatever that truth happens to be. And until you set that as your goal, you will remain without an answer which satisfies you.
"If we believe absurdities we shall commit atrocities." -- Voltaire
ohj0shua
Posts: 36
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8/23/2014 7:56:31 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/22/2014 3:12:04 AM, debateuser wrote:
At 8/22/2014 1:52:46 AM, Dr_Obvious wrote:
The first law of thermodynamics states that matter and energy cannot be created or destroyed. This is a scientific fact.

Energy and matter exist. Where did they come from? Some claim that they always existed. The second law of thermodynamics refutes this. If energy always existed, there would be no energy, due to entropy. This is another scientific fact.

Since matter and energy cannot be created, and they could not have always existed, the only explanation is a supernatural act of creation.

An all powerful being is the only way to get around the laws of the universe, which He created from nothing. No other explanation is scientifically valid.

Here you are assuming some things. Firstly that a creator always existed and that creator is from nothing and nothingness. Secondly you are saying that a creator created energy. This violates the first law of thermodynamics you are mentioning.

As far as the second law of thermodynamics is concerened , you misinterpreting it. This is explained in the following website

http://rationalwiki.org...

that link was a good read.
annanicole
Posts: 19,782
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8/23/2014 7:58:11 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/23/2014 12:20:05 AM, Beastt wrote:
At 8/22/2014 1:52:46 AM, Dr_Obvious wrote:
The first law of thermodynamics states that matter and energy cannot be created or destroyed. This is a scientific fact.

Energy and matter exist. Where did they come from? Some claim that they always existed. The second law of thermodynamics refutes this.
An that's where you make your error. You're referring to heat death, which is only a problem in an environment of matter and energy. If the environment is energy only, the energy is not expended and does not decline.

You are contending that a state once existed which was 100% energy with no matter?

If energy always existed, there would be no energy, due to entropy. This is another scientific fact.

Incorrect. If matter/energy always existed, then entropy would eventually lead to heat death. But this is not a problem in an energy-only universe. And yet, because energy can convert to matter (which appears to have happened 13.7 billion years ago), an energy-only universe can persist indefinitely, and then produce a matter/energy universe.

Again, you are advancing the claim that an entire "universe" consisting of only energy - with no matter at all - once existed. Do you have solid evidence of this claim, or is it simply a contingency? Also, are there not, according to science, entire galaxies that are older than the "Big Expansion" itself?

You don't seem to understand what entropy is. It's actually the process of energy converting to matter. As this happens, you end up with less and less energy, and more and more matter. Eventually you run out of energy to convert and the result is known as "heat death". But, in an energy-only universe, the only way to lose energy would be for the energy to simply vanish. Look again to the First Law of Thermodynamics. Can energy just vanish? Can it be destroyed? No?

Then we can't lose energy from an energy-only environment. And if we can't lose energy, there is no entropy.

Since matter and energy cannot be created, and they could not have always existed, the only explanation is a supernatural act of creation.

No, because you're saying "Creation isn't possible, therefore it was an act of creation". It's a self-refuting claim.

He is saying that "matter and energy cannot be created according to the Laws of the known universe."

An all powerful being is the only way to get around the laws of the universe, which He created from nothing. No other explanation is scientifically valid.

Once again, you're not understanding either the Second law of thermodynamics, or the principle of an energy-only universe which can persist indefinitely without advancing toward heat-death. Therefore, your conclusion is shown to be wrong.

Could you point us to an example of an "energy-only universe"?
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
ohj0shua
Posts: 36
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8/23/2014 9:00:33 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Hey Beastt,

A couple of questions for you.

firstly with regard to the big bang do you have any hypothesis (or are there any common hypothesis out there) as to what was the catalyst to change the universe from a state of no matter (energy) into a state which has matter?

Second from my reading on Entropy it seems a bit sad in a way. It says there there will be no evidence remaining of the history of the universe.

Is there any potential for intelligent life (or more likely artificial intelligence) to prevent or delay the eventual sedentary state which no work will be done?
Beastt
Posts: 5,135
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8/23/2014 10:12:33 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/23/2014 7:58:11 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 8/23/2014 12:20:05 AM, Beastt wrote:
At 8/22/2014 1:52:46 AM, Dr_Obvious wrote:
The first law of thermodynamics states that matter and energy cannot be created or destroyed. This is a scientific fact.

Energy and matter exist. Where did they come from? Some claim that they always existed. The second law of thermodynamics refutes this.
An that's where you make your error. You're referring to heat death, which is only a problem in an environment of matter and energy. If the environment is energy only, the energy is not expended and does not decline.

You are contending that a state once existed which was 100% energy with no matter?

If energy always existed, there would be no energy, due to entropy. This is another scientific fact.

Incorrect. If matter/energy always existed, then entropy would eventually lead to heat death. But this is not a problem in an energy-only universe. And yet, because energy can convert to matter (which appears to have happened 13.7 billion years ago), an energy-only universe can persist indefinitely, and then produce a matter/energy universe.

Again, you are advancing the claim that an entire "universe" consisting of only energy - with no matter at all - once existed. Do you have solid evidence of this claim, or is it simply a contingency? Also, are there not, according to science, entire galaxies that are older than the "Big Expansion" itself?

You don't seem to understand what entropy is. It's actually the process of energy converting to matter. As this happens, you end up with less and less energy, and more and more matter. Eventually you run out of energy to convert and the result is known as "heat death". But, in an energy-only universe, the only way to lose energy would be for the energy to simply vanish. Look again to the First Law of Thermodynamics. Can energy just vanish? Can it be destroyed? No?

Then we can't lose energy from an energy-only environment. And if we can't lose energy, there is no entropy.

Since matter and energy cannot be created, and they could not have always existed, the only explanation is a supernatural act of creation.

No, because you're saying "Creation isn't possible, therefore it was an act of creation". It's a self-refuting claim.

He is saying that "matter and energy cannot be created according to the Laws of the known universe."

An all powerful being is the only way to get around the laws of the universe, which He created from nothing. No other explanation is scientifically valid.

Once again, you're not understanding either the Second law of thermodynamics, or the principle of an energy-only universe which can persist indefinitely without advancing toward heat-death. Therefore, your conclusion is shown to be wrong.

Could you point us to an example of an "energy-only universe"?
We know of only one universe, Anna. "Universe" means "everything that exists".
I'm not sure how many times I need to show you the same evidence, but it seems you think that if you keep asking, the answer will change. See Einstein on "Insanity".
1. Matter/energy exists
2. Matter/energy can be neither created, nor destroyed
3. Matter can convert to energy and energy can convert to matter.
4. There are no natural mechanisms consistent with intelligent choice, all are consistent with purely mechanical interactions of matter/energy

Now you take those four pieces of evidence and do anything you please with them, but they only point in one direction, and they do nothing to indicate that the universe was created, that it was designed, or that it had a creator. Everything about the universe shows that it was not the product of an outside force (no matter how much you might wish it to have been).
"If we believe absurdities we shall commit atrocities." -- Voltaire
annanicole
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8/23/2014 10:14:48 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/23/2014 10:12:33 PM, Beastt wrote:
At 8/23/2014 7:58:11 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 8/23/2014 12:20:05 AM, Beastt wrote:
At 8/22/2014 1:52:46 AM, Dr_Obvious wrote:
The first law of thermodynamics states that matter and energy cannot be created or destroyed. This is a scientific fact.

Energy and matter exist. Where did they come from? Some claim that they always existed. The second law of thermodynamics refutes this.
An that's where you make your error. You're referring to heat death, which is only a problem in an environment of matter and energy. If the environment is energy only, the energy is not expended and does not decline.

You are contending that a state once existed which was 100% energy with no matter?

If energy always existed, there would be no energy, due to entropy. This is another scientific fact.

Incorrect. If matter/energy always existed, then entropy would eventually lead to heat death. But this is not a problem in an energy-only universe. And yet, because energy can convert to matter (which appears to have happened 13.7 billion years ago), an energy-only universe can persist indefinitely, and then produce a matter/energy universe.

Again, you are advancing the claim that an entire "universe" consisting of only energy - with no matter at all - once existed. Do you have solid evidence of this claim, or is it simply a contingency? Also, are there not, according to science, entire galaxies that are older than the "Big Expansion" itself?

You don't seem to understand what entropy is. It's actually the process of energy converting to matter. As this happens, you end up with less and less energy, and more and more matter. Eventually you run out of energy to convert and the result is known as "heat death". But, in an energy-only universe, the only way to lose energy would be for the energy to simply vanish. Look again to the First Law of Thermodynamics. Can energy just vanish? Can it be destroyed? No?

Then we can't lose energy from an energy-only environment. And if we can't lose energy, there is no entropy.

Since matter and energy cannot be created, and they could not have always existed, the only explanation is a supernatural act of creation.

No, because you're saying "Creation isn't possible, therefore it was an act of creation". It's a self-refuting claim.

He is saying that "matter and energy cannot be created according to the Laws of the known universe."

An all powerful being is the only way to get around the laws of the universe, which He created from nothing. No other explanation is scientifically valid.

Once again, you're not understanding either the Second law of thermodynamics, or the principle of an energy-only universe which can persist indefinitely without advancing toward heat-death. Therefore, your conclusion is shown to be wrong.

Could you point us to an example of an "energy-only universe"?
We know of only one universe, Anna. "Universe" means "everything that exists".
I'm not sure how many times I need to show you the same evidence, but it seems you think that if you keep asking, the answer will change. See Einstein on "Insanity".
1. Matter/energy exists
2. Matter/energy can be neither created, nor destroyed
3. Matter can convert to energy and energy can convert to matter.
4. There are no natural mechanisms consistent with intelligent choice, all are consistent with purely mechanical interactions of matter/energy

Now you take those four pieces of evidence and do anything you please with them, but they only point in one direction, and they do nothing to indicate that the universe was created, that it was designed, or that it had a creator. Everything about the universe shows that it was not the product of an outside force (no matter how much you might wish it to have been).

Very well. Could you show us a naturally-occurring "energy-only" system?
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."