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How Neutral is Hatred?

Beastt
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8/23/2014 4:54:35 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
Perhaps I'm one of the last who should be authoring this post. But I want to take a moment to offer a word of thanks, and to extend an idea to others (one in particular), which was previously offered to me.

Five days ago I didn't think I'd be doing this but I want to thank Matt.McGuire88. He and I had a bit of a rivalry going on until a day ago when he stopped, and I didn't notice. Then he simply asked me why I was so antagonistic, so filled with venom, and so resistant to simply exchanging ideas. Well, thank you, Matt. I still don't know how long it will last and perhaps I made it through today because I didn't see you online. But at least for the moment, I have a much different mindset - a mindset more conducive to discussion and less prone to a contest of meaningless insults and anger.

None of us appreciates being insulted and while most of us can let the majority of insults roll off of our backs, there are always a few which - for various personal reasons - can cut pretty deeply.

But since Matt and I buried the hatchet (without striking any major arteries), I've realized that I'm a little more open to focusing on the issues. It actually provides a position which is far less intimidating. It brings me back to my earlier days of debate when I was a bit more interested in some level of friendship, and less interested in slinging the better insult. I hate to use the term but it's actually - though perhaps only slightly - somewhat empowering.

So I want to offer to a few here who are clearly more interested in smearing their worst hatred, their pure vitriol and a clear desire to raise the level of hatred, to take a queue from Matt, and see if a more constructive form of exchange might be possible. I'm sure there will be some failures and what progress is made might be short-lived. But for the moment, at least, I'm motivated to suggest considering the attempt.
"If we believe absurdities we shall commit atrocities." -- Voltaire
neutral
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8/23/2014 5:05:53 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/23/2014 4:54:35 AM, Beastt wrote:
Perhaps I'm one of the last who should be authoring this post. But I want to take a moment to offer a word of thanks, and to extend an idea to others (one in particular), which was previously offered to me.

Five days ago I didn't think I'd be doing this but I want to thank Matt.McGuire88. He and I had a bit of a rivalry going on until a day ago when he stopped, and I didn't notice. Then he simply asked me why I was so antagonistic, so filled with venom, and so resistant to simply exchanging ideas. Well, thank you, Matt. I still don't know how long it will last and perhaps I made it through today because I didn't see you online. But at least for the moment, I have a much different mindset - a mindset more conducive to discussion and less prone to a contest of meaningless insults and anger.

None of us appreciates being insulted and while most of us can let the majority of insults roll off of our backs, there are always a few which - for various personal reasons - can cut pretty deeply.

But since Matt and I buried the hatchet (without striking any major arteries), I've realized that I'm a little more open to focusing on the issues. It actually provides a position which is far less intimidating. It brings me back to my earlier days of debate when I was a bit more interested in some level of friendship, and less interested in slinging the better insult. I hate to use the term but it's actually - though perhaps only slightly - somewhat empowering.

So I want to offer to a few here who are clearly more interested in smearing their worst hatred, their pure vitriol and a clear desire to raise the level of hatred, to take a queue from Matt, and see if a more constructive form of exchange might be possible. I'm sure there will be some failures and what progress is made might be short-lived. But for the moment, at least, I'm motivated to suggest considering the attempt.

Not that I want to add to this obvious trolling, however, a couple of points:

#1 - that a hatchet had to be buried, predisposes that there is a hatchet in existence.

#2 - The constant insults from Beasty, uninvited personal advice, constant snide comments and false statements, indicate that there is a well grounded reasoning for yet ANOTHER hatchet to be in existence here.

#3 - The only routine atheists contributor that makes any attempt at communication is Envy. The rest? Ar a bunch of mud slingers who cannot even take a correction.

That we need to start threads pointedly aimed at people? Well, that atheism on this forum, all about knocking people down rather than actually making a discussion point in a civil and reasonable tone.

Let watch to see whether Matt and Beasty stay BFF - any bets?
neutral
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8/23/2014 6:29:50 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/23/2014 6:22:01 AM, dee-em wrote:
Someone makes a genuine attempt and what's the immediate response - more polemics.

Maybe you should read what's going on across the forum with Beasty. And a genuine attempt is not, "Heh, me and some other guys agreed to try and get along, but the real problem is neutral ... and Ana ... and Fatihah ... and every other religious person on the forum save temporarily Matt."

IS it right to constantly accuse religious people of supporting slavery?

IS it right to constantly accuse religious people of supporting rape?

IS it right to continuously launch acerbic attacks on religion based on straw men and then ignore the correction of actual doctrine?

IS it right to start thread specifically aimed at attacking other people?

And when you INSIST on doing these things, what rational person would expect the end result to be civil discussion?

Heh all you raping atheists!!! What? Why you mad at me bro - I'm just telling the truth as I see it! Why not bury the hatchet like me and Envy bro! Atheists rape!

Sound legit to you?
bulproof
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8/23/2014 6:35:39 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/23/2014 6:29:50 AM, neutral wrote:
At 8/23/2014 6:22:01 AM, dee-em wrote:
Someone makes a genuine attempt and what's the immediate response - more polemics.

Maybe you should read what's going on across the forum with Beasty. And a genuine attempt is not, "Heh, me and some other guys agreed to try and get along, but the real problem is neutral ... and Ana ... and Fatihah ... and every other religious person on the forum save temporarily Matt."

IS it right to constantly accuse religious people of supporting slavery?

IS it right to constantly accuse religious people of supporting rape?

IS it right to continuously launch acerbic attacks on religion based on straw men and then ignore the correction of actual doctrine?

IS it right to start thread specifically aimed at attacking other people?

And when you INSIST on doing these things, what rational person would expect the end result to be civil discussion?

Heh all you raping atheists!!! What? Why you mad at me bro - I'm just telling the truth as I see it! Why not bury the hatchet like me and Envy bro! Atheists rape!

Sound legit to you?

Your holy book supports all of those things, that means your god supports all of those things, that means that you better damn well support it.

We don't have a holy book so you need to try harder, tryhard.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
dee-em
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8/23/2014 6:37:48 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/23/2014 6:29:50 AM, neutral wrote:
At 8/23/2014 6:22:01 AM, dee-em wrote:
Someone makes a genuine attempt and what's the immediate response - more polemics.

Maybe you should read what's going on across the forum with Beasty. And a genuine attempt is not, "Heh, me and some other guys agreed to try and get along, but the real problem is neutral ... and Ana ... and Fatihah ... and every other religious person on the forum save temporarily Matt."

IS it right to constantly accuse religious people of supporting slavery?

IS it right to constantly accuse religious people of supporting rape?

IS it right to continuously launch acerbic attacks on religion based on straw men and then ignore the correction of actual doctrine?

IS it right to start thread specifically aimed at attacking other people?

And when you INSIST on doing these things, what rational person would expect the end result to be civil discussion?

Heh all you raping atheists!!! What? Why you mad at me bro - I'm just telling the truth as I see it! Why not bury the hatchet like me and Envy bro! Atheists rape!

Sound legit to you?

Yes, the thread title is unfortunate, but do you think your contribution is helping if someone is trying to make an effort to tone it down a little? Raking up the muck is rarely a good strategy.
neutral
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8/23/2014 6:38:59 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/23/2014 6:22:01 AM, dee-em wrote:
Someone makes a genuine attempt and what's the immediate response - more polemics.

You see what I mean? Please, pretend that its religious rejection of the CONSTANT statements made by bully boy above that are the problem here?

After all, its pretty clear you atheists support pedophilia.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com...

I wouldn't worry about correcting that interpretation with anything factual however (It's not like I would listen anyway), all I need is the King atheist saying it, and it infects ALL of you forever. I will constantly throw this in your face in every discussion BTW, and the end result is supposed to be civil discussion.

How looney tunes is that expectation?
Beastt
Posts: 5,135
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8/23/2014 6:39:45 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/23/2014 5:05:53 AM, neutral wrote:
At 8/23/2014 4:54:35 AM, Beastt wrote:
Perhaps I'm one of the last who should be authoring this post. But I want to take a moment to offer a word of thanks, and to extend an idea to others (one in particular), which was previously offered to me.

Five days ago I didn't think I'd be doing this but I want to thank Matt.McGuire88. He and I had a bit of a rivalry going on until a day ago when he stopped, and I didn't notice. Then he simply asked me why I was so antagonistic, so filled with venom, and so resistant to simply exchanging ideas. Well, thank you, Matt. I still don't know how long it will last and perhaps I made it through today because I didn't see you online. But at least for the moment, I have a much different mindset - a mindset more conducive to discussion and less prone to a contest of meaningless insults and anger.

None of us appreciates being insulted and while most of us can let the majority of insults roll off of our backs, there are always a few which - for various personal reasons - can cut pretty deeply.

But since Matt and I buried the hatchet (without striking any major arteries), I've realized that I'm a little more open to focusing on the issues. It actually provides a position which is far less intimidating. It brings me back to my earlier days of debate when I was a bit more interested in some level of friendship, and less interested in slinging the better insult. I hate to use the term but it's actually - though perhaps only slightly - somewhat empowering.

So I want to offer to a few here who are clearly more interested in smearing their worst hatred, their pure vitriol and a clear desire to raise the level of hatred, to take a queue from Matt, and see if a more constructive form of exchange might be possible. I'm sure there will be some failures and what progress is made might be short-lived. But for the moment, at least, I'm motivated to suggest considering the attempt.

Not that I want to add to this obvious trolling, however, a couple of points:

#1 - that a hatchet had to be buried, predisposes that there is a hatchet in existence.
I'm not sure exactly when you think a level of animosity has reached the point where it could be called "a hatchet", but in my opinion the relationships between many users here are at that level, and beyond.

#2 - The constant insults from Beasty, uninvited personal advice, constant snide comments and false statements, indicate that there is a well grounded reasoning for yet ANOTHER hatchet to be in existence here.
As I stated, the exchange between Matt and myself occurred only within the last day or two. I didn't really even feel motivated to alter my focus until this morning. And it has me hopeful that perhaps the idea can spread. Advice needn't always wait for an invitation because it's purely optional. If you want to take it, that's up to you. If you'd rather not take it, that's also up to you. Need it even be said that no one here can force you to try anything you don't wish to try?

And I'm not suggesting that people pretend to believe anything they don't believe. Aggressive debate is great. I wouldn't want to be here if it were nothing but everyone pretending to respect everyone else's beliefs. I don't care for such a phony charade. But in some cases there isn't any debate occurring. It's only a contest of insults and I've been as caught up in it as anyone. But maybe I don't have to be.

#3 - The only routine atheists contributor that makes any attempt at communication is Envy. The rest? Ar a bunch of mud slingers who cannot even take a correction.
I would have to suggest, Neutral, that there are a number of people who could be regarded as "mud-slingers" here, and if you and I weren't both included in that list, it clearly wouldn't be complete. So I'm trying something new. If you prefer the old standard, insult away!

That we need to start threads pointedly aimed at people? Well, that atheism on this forum, all about knocking people down rather than actually making a discussion point in a civil and reasonable tone.
And yet oddly, this entire thread is in the hopes of at least offering that there may be potential for a more civil tone. It might not work. It might work for a short time and not last. But I'm not seeing how anyone here is jeopardizing anything for providing a moment's consideration. It doesn't mean turning this into the Lady's Auxiliary Tea Party. I still think theism is silly superstition - even stupidity. I'm not going to hide that. I'm sure you think atheism is every insult you've ever offered in its regard. This isn't about hiding your feelings. It's just about wrapping them in an intelligent course of debate, rather than in the same tired list of expletives, insults and revisiting our childhoods. The Bible still supports slavery and host of other barbarities. Don't expect me not to make frequent mention of that. You still think atheism is hiding behind the standards for burden of proof. I expect to see that expressed just as frequently. It's simply about injecting the discourse with some substance, and perhaps seeking to establish some conclusions.

Let watch to see whether Matt and Beasty stay BFF - any bets?

I would offer that you visit my second paragraph above... right up near the top where I wrote; "I still don't know how long it will last and perhaps I made it through today because I didn't see you online. But at least for the moment, I have a much different mindset"

I rather expect the situation to decay and perhaps, rather rapidly. But I'm not seeing what I'll lose for trying.
"If we believe absurdities we shall commit atrocities." -- Voltaire
neutral
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8/23/2014 6:40:34 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/23/2014 6:37:48 AM, dee-em wrote:


Yes, the thread title is unfortunate, but do you think your contribution is helping if someone is trying to make an effort to tone it down a little? Raking up the muck is rarely a good strategy.

Well, if you have a better strategy than confronting this BS head on, please offer up solutions, I am all ears.

Please don't say report it, because it has been to zero effect.

When atheists start calling out other atheists for the behavior ... we might get somewhere in the absence of moderation.
bulproof
Posts: 25,250
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8/23/2014 6:42:24 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/23/2014 6:38:59 AM, neutral wrote:
At 8/23/2014 6:22:01 AM, dee-em wrote:
Someone makes a genuine attempt and what's the immediate response - more polemics.

You see what I mean? Please, pretend that its religious rejection of the CONSTANT statements made by bully boy above that are the problem here?

After all, its pretty clear you atheists support pedophilia.

That's the catholic priests your thinking of.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
neutral
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8/23/2014 6:45:28 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/23/2014 6:39:45 AM, Beastt wrote:

And yet oddly, this entire thread is in the hopes of at least offering that there may be potential for a more civil tone.

Then lets examine that shall we?

Why are you in a pissing match with every religious person on the forum? What criticism are routinely leveled at you and what can YOU do, other than bitch about everyone but you, to improve the atmosphere?

Could you stop throwing about slavery, rape, and genocide perhaps?

Could you stop encouraging troll boy perhaps?

Could you possible accept doctrinal references as a starting point for discussion perhaps?

Could you may begin your attacks on religion by ACTUALLY sighting the doctrinal statement you disagree with?

COUld you perhaps apply standards equally, and attempt to follow them?

Could you not insist that your debotched view of our faith is the correct manner it is practiced? You know listen rather than dictate?

Could you assume that 'mere disbelief in God,' is not a difficult concept to understand?

That sounds like a good place to start, rather than running around blaming others.
Beastt
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8/23/2014 6:46:05 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/23/2014 6:38:59 AM, neutral wrote:
At 8/23/2014 6:22:01 AM, dee-em wrote:
Someone makes a genuine attempt and what's the immediate response - more polemics.

You see what I mean? Please, pretend that its religious rejection of the CONSTANT statements made by bully boy above that are the problem here?

After all, its pretty clear you atheists support pedophilia.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com...

I wouldn't worry about correcting that interpretation with anything factual however (It's not like I would listen anyway), all I need is the King atheist saying it, and it infects ALL of you forever. I will constantly throw this in your face in every discussion BTW, and the end result is supposed to be civil discussion.

How looney tunes is that expectation?
Once again, Neutral, atheism takes no stand one way or the other on pedophilia. I rather doubt you're going to find any atheists on this board who are in favor of it, nor am I likely to find any theists who express any support for it whatsoever. But if we're going to be honest (and I'm not suggesting that anyone not be honest), we should note that the Carpocratian version of the "Gospel of Mark" portrays Jesus as a pedophile, and did so because the Carpocratian culture believed pedophilia to be a virtue. Meanwhile, I remain unaware of any atheist group who has ever held such an outlook in that regard. And I think it unlikely that I need to say more than "Catholic Church" to bring to mind a much more contemporary vision of some of the disgusting nests which have formed within Christianity.
"If we believe absurdities we shall commit atrocities." -- Voltaire
bulproof
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8/23/2014 6:49:43 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/23/2014 6:35:39 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 8/23/2014 6:29:50 AM, neutral wrote:
At 8/23/2014 6:22:01 AM, dee-em wrote:
Someone makes a genuine attempt and what's the immediate response - more polemics.

Maybe you should read what's going on across the forum with Beasty. And a genuine attempt is not, "Heh, me and some other guys agreed to try and get along, but the real problem is neutral ... and Ana ... and Fatihah ... and every other religious person on the forum save temporarily Matt."

IS it right to constantly accuse religious people of supporting slavery?

IS it right to constantly accuse religious people of supporting rape?

IS it right to continuously launch acerbic attacks on religion based on straw men and then ignore the correction of actual doctrine?

IS it right to start thread specifically aimed at attacking other people?

And when you INSIST on doing these things, what rational person would expect the end result to be civil discussion?

Heh all you raping atheists!!! What? Why you mad at me bro - I'm just telling the truth as I see it! Why not bury the hatchet like me and Envy bro! Atheists rape!

Sound legit to you?

Your holy book supports all of those things, that means your god supports all of those things, that means that you better damn well support it.

We don't have a holy book so you need to try harder, tryhard.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
Illegalcombatant
Posts: 4,008
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8/23/2014 6:51:30 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
"we should note that the Carpocratian version of the "Gospel of Mark" portrays Jesus as a pedophile, and did so because the Carpocratian culture believed pedophilia to be a virtue"

What ? lol
"Seems like another attempt to insert God into areas our knowledge has yet to penetrate. You figure God would be bigger than the gaps of our ignorance." Drafterman 19/5/12
neutral
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8/23/2014 6:51:33 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/23/2014 6:46:05 AM, Beastt wrote:
At 8/23/2014 6:38:59 AM, neutral wrote:
At 8/23/2014 6:22:01 AM, dee-em wrote:
Someone makes a genuine attempt and what's the immediate response - more polemics.

You see what I mean? Please, pretend that its religious rejection of the CONSTANT statements made by bully boy above that are the problem here?

After all, its pretty clear you atheists support pedophilia.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com...

I wouldn't worry about correcting that interpretation with anything factual however (It's not like I would listen anyway), all I need is the King atheist saying it, and it infects ALL of you forever. I will constantly throw this in your face in every discussion BTW, and the end result is supposed to be civil discussion.

How looney tunes is that expectation?
Once again, Neutral, atheism takes no stand one way or the other on pedophilia.

That's not the point atheist.

All I need, as you and bully boy do repeatedly, is the barest non-contextual reference and it infects you all.

Just as rape, genoicide, slavery, misogyny, and everything else you accuse us of supporting. Any reference to larger points of doctrine and context are irrelevant when pointed out to you.

So why should I accept any references to atheism that conflict with the statement I, unlike you, at least bothered to cite?

You atheists support pedophilia. Period.

Standards atheist. Good for the goose and good for the gander.

If you think the pedophilia comment is unhelpful, which is clearly is, then all the crap you sling is ... well, more common and more unhelpful. You do it anyway, and then pretend that your actions are not THE CAUSE of the lack of civility?

How many times have I pointed out how and why Christians don;t support slavery to you? You still bring it up?

How many Christians have pointed out texts from CHRIST himself about rape, and you STILL bring it up?

How many times have I alone attempted to address existential wars reality with you? Explained that this is a moral trait SPECIFIC to war with no commandment to personal conduct whatsoever? Still you accuse us of genocide.

No Beasty, you support pedophilia, and I will not listen to your lies about it at all - YOUR standard.
bulproof
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8/23/2014 6:56:33 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/23/2014 6:51:33 AM, neutral wrote:
At 8/23/2014 6:46:05 AM, Beastt wrote:
At 8/23/2014 6:38:59 AM, neutral wrote:
At 8/23/2014 6:22:01 AM, dee-em wrote:
Someone makes a genuine attempt and what's the immediate response - more polemics.

You see what I mean? Please, pretend that its religious rejection of the CONSTANT statements made by bully boy above that are the problem here?

After all, its pretty clear you atheists support pedophilia.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com...

I wouldn't worry about correcting that interpretation with anything factual however (It's not like I would listen anyway), all I need is the King atheist saying it, and it infects ALL of you forever. I will constantly throw this in your face in every discussion BTW, and the end result is supposed to be civil discussion.

How looney tunes is that expectation?
Once again, Neutral, atheism takes no stand one way or the other on pedophilia.

That's not the point atheist.

All I need, as you and bully boy do repeatedly, is the barest non-contextual reference and it infects you all.

Just as rape, genoicide, slavery, misogyny, and everything else you accuse us of supporting. Any reference to larger points of doctrine and context are irrelevant when pointed out to you.

So why should I accept any references to atheism that conflict with the statement I, unlike you, at least bothered to cite?

You atheists support pedophilia. Period.

Standards atheist. Good for the goose and good for the gander.

If you think the pedophilia comment is unhelpful, which is clearly is, then all the crap you sling is ... well, more common and more unhelpful. You do it anyway, and then pretend that your actions are not THE CAUSE of the lack of civility?

How many times have I pointed out how and why Christians don;t support slavery to you? You still bring it up?

How many Christians have pointed out texts from CHRIST himself about rape, and you STILL bring it up?

How many times have I alone attempted to address existential wars reality with you? Explained that this is a moral trait SPECIFIC to war with no commandment to personal conduct whatsoever? Still you accuse us of genocide.

No Beasty, you support pedophilia, and I will not listen to your lies about it at all - YOUR standard.

Your god supports and orders such behaviour, the fact that it makes your claims ridiculous is what is being explained to you.
Talk to your god and get a new holy book that doesn't support rape, genocide, infanticide.
It's your religion deal with it.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
neutral
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8/23/2014 6:57:46 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/23/2014 6:56:33 AM, bulproof wrote:

Your god supports and orders such behaviour, the fact that it makes your claims ridiculous is what is being explained to you.
Talk to your god and get a new holy book that doesn't support rape, genocide, infanticide.
It's your religion deal with it.

Well Beasty, here is your opportunity to condemn the behavior.

Either troll boy here and his actions are wrong - or all atheists are pedophiles.

Pick your standard.
dee-em
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8/23/2014 7:00:43 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/23/2014 6:40:34 AM, neutral wrote:
At 8/23/2014 6:37:48 AM, dee-em wrote:


Yes, the thread title is unfortunate, but do you think your contribution is helping if someone is trying to make an effort to tone it down a little? Raking up the muck is rarely a good strategy.

Well, if you have a better strategy than confronting this BS head on, please offer up solutions, I am all ears.

Please don't say report it, because it has been to zero effect.

When atheists start calling out other atheists for the behavior ... we might get somewhere in the absence of moderation.

You treat everyone as an individual - you don't lump all atheists together for a start. If someone engages in troll-like behaviour or personal abuse, you ignore them. That's the great thing about the web. If your inclination is to be combative, then do that - but don't carry it over to others.

I haven't been here long, but it hasn't been my experience that Beastt is abusive without being severely provoked. Yes, he may raise topics you find offensive and which challenge your beliefs. That's the atheist perspective in play. From my limited experience, Beastt is thoughtful and earnest and he gives long reasoned responses. He never shirks an issue. I find that commendable. Whether he behaved differently in the past and there's a history between you, I cannot know.
bulproof
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8/23/2014 7:03:21 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/23/2014 6:57:46 AM, neutral wrote:
At 8/23/2014 6:56:33 AM, bulproof wrote:

Your god supports and orders such behaviour, the fact that it makes your claims ridiculous is what is being explained to you.
Talk to your god and get a new holy book that doesn't support rape, genocide, infanticide.
It's your religion deal with it.

Well Beasty, here is your opportunity to condemn the behavior.

Either troll boy here and his actions are wrong - or all atheists are pedophiles.

Pick your standard.

You catholic priests always blame someone else for your little boy fuking. When did you join the priesthood. ROFL. LMFAO

Fuking moron. How do you feel about your god ordering pedophilic rape and infanticide?
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
neutral
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8/23/2014 7:05:39 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/23/2014 7:00:43 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 8/23/2014 6:40:34 AM, neutral wrote:
At 8/23/2014 6:37:48 AM, dee-em wrote:


Yes, the thread title is unfortunate, but do you think your contribution is helping if someone is trying to make an effort to tone it down a little? Raking up the muck is rarely a good strategy.

Well, if you have a better strategy than confronting this BS head on, please offer up solutions, I am all ears.

Please don't say report it, because it has been to zero effect.

When atheists start calling out other atheists for the behavior ... we might get somewhere in the absence of moderation.

You treat everyone as an individual - you don't lump all atheists together for a start. If someone engages in troll-like behaviour or personal abuse, you ignore them. That's the great thing about the web. If your inclination is to be combative, then do that - but don't carry it over to others.

I haven't been here long, but it hasn't been my experience that Beastt is abusive without being severely provoked. Yes, he may raise topics you find offensive and which challenge your beliefs. That's the atheist perspective in play. From my limited experience, Beastt is thoughtful and earnest and he gives long reasoned responses. He never shirks an issue. I find that commendable. Whether he behaved differently in the past and there's a history between you, I cannot know.

That goes both ways, correct? Lumping 'religion' all together?

Again, you side with Beasty for emotional reasons and avoid the reality, so address the points.

What do you expect when you run around accusing people of being rapists, slavers, misogynists, murdering genocidal maniacs, while pointedly ignoring the rebuttals to keep saying the same thing over and over again anyway?

You expect the result to be civility? Or is that designed specifically to create an emotional response, a practice known as flame bait? A practice that is being ignored by the moderators currently?

Again, you say civility is necessary, I agree - but the cause is atheists IMHO.

I will apply it again, you decide, if I constantly throw Dawkins comments about pedophilia in your face, and accuse you PERSONALLY of supporting pedophilia - commanded by your ing no less - am I attempting to engage you in a rational discussion or flame bait?

You tell me? Who is provoking who there? If you dismiss me as a troll after calling you a pedophile ... well, Not 'I' have been provoked correct? My personal attacks on you justified heretofore, correct?

So what is the problem here? What is the solution? Especially in the absence of moderation?
neutral
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8/23/2014 7:08:08 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/23/2014 7:00:43 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 8/23/2014 6:40:34 AM, neutral wrote:
At 8/23/2014 6:37:48 AM, dee-em wrote:


Yes, the thread title is unfortunate, but do you think your contribution is helping if someone is trying to make an effort to tone it down a little? Raking up the muck is rarely a good strategy.

Well, if you have a better strategy than confronting this BS head on, please offer up solutions, I am all ears.

Please don't say report it, because it has been to zero effect.

When atheists start calling out other atheists for the behavior ... we might get somewhere in the absence of moderation.

You treat everyone as an individual - you don't lump all atheists together for a start. If someone engages in troll-like behaviour or personal abuse, you ignore them. That's the great thing about the web. If your inclination is to be combative, then do that - but don't carry it over to others.

I haven't been here long, but it hasn't been my experience that Beastt is abusive without being severely provoked. Yes, he may raise topics you find offensive and which challenge your beliefs. That's the atheist perspective in play. From my limited experience, Beastt is thoughtful and earnest and he gives long reasoned responses. He never shirks an issue. I find that commendable. Whether he behaved differently in the past and there's a history between you, I cannot know.

7,500 posts like this:

At 8/23/2014 7:03:21 AM, bulproof wrote:

You catholic priests always blame someone else for your little boy fuking. When did you join the priesthood. ROFL. LMFAO

Fuking moron. How do you feel about your god ordering pedophilic rape and infanticide?

And the problem of civility is ... whose fault? Beasty is obviously provoked by these comments aimed continuously at religious people - everyone of whom is exposed to these abusive comments from troll boy here EVERY SINGLE day in EVERY SINGLE thread this troll visits.

EVERY DAY.

And yet Beasty confines his attempts at civility to those who reject these comments? How is that helpful in the least?
dee-em
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8/23/2014 7:11:19 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/23/2014 6:57:46 AM, neutral wrote:
At 8/23/2014 6:56:33 AM, bulproof wrote:

Your god supports and orders such behaviour, the fact that it makes your claims ridiculous is what is being explained to you.
Talk to your god and get a new holy book that doesn't support rape, genocide, infanticide.
It's your religion deal with it.

Well Beasty, here is your opportunity to condemn the behavior.

Either troll boy here and his actions are wrong - or all atheists are pedophiles.

Pick your standard.

I'll respond (but not to the false dichotomy).

I don't condone the goading which bulproof engages in. He often makes valid points though and, at least in this case, there is no personal abuse that I can see.
Beastt
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8/23/2014 7:13:39 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/23/2014 6:45:28 AM, neutral wrote:
At 8/23/2014 6:39:45 AM, Beastt wrote:

And yet oddly, this entire thread is in the hopes of at least offering that there may be potential for a more civil tone.

Then lets examine that shall we?

Why are you in a pissing match with every religious person on the forum? What criticism are routinely leveled at you and what can YOU do, other than bitch about everyone but you, to improve the atmosphere?
This will be the third time I have pointed this out. Matt and I had our little discussion yesterday. It didn't really sink in until this morning when I decided to try to put it into practice. And it doesn't mean that I don't plan to argue honestly and aggressively. But I want it to be about debate, not about the most expletives, or the most creative insults.

Could you stop throwing about slavery, rape, and genocide perhaps?
No sir. That would be dishonest. They are a part of the Bible - a part that it supports. And I'm not going to stop debating... in effect, I'm going to start. But I'm hoping it can become more about issues, and less about personal animosity.

Could you stop encouraging troll boy perhaps?
What other posters do, they do of their own accord, Neutral. I'm not sure when or how you think I took control over other atheists here, telling them what, when and where to post, but I want to be very clear about this - that's your "personal paranoid delusion" (some of that unpleasant plain-language straight-talk we're going to need to accept as part of honest debate) and has no bearing in truth.

Could you possible accept doctrinal references as a starting point for discussion perhaps?
I have been discussing doctrinal references. My point is that what is preached in doctrine, and what is active in practice are not the same thing. If you claim a doctrine to be about "love thy neighbor" but in the next statement talk about washing your feet in the blood of the wicked, I'm inclined to offer the discrepancy.

Could you may begin your attacks on religion by ACTUALLY sighting the doctrinal statement you disagree with?
When appropriate. Again; I really don't care how doctrine reads. I'm far more concerned with how it manifests. And the two are quite often miles apart, sometimes in diametric opposition.

COUld you perhaps apply standards equally, and attempt to follow them?
I can apply standards appropriately. But one needs to understand that standards on two sides of the fence, cannot be exactly the same. If they were, they'd be the same side of the fence. I can't impose a standard of evidence for a claim born in observation of a lack of evidence. (For example) That would be like charging a man with murder, offering absolutely no evidence to show his guilt, and demanding that he present evidence for his innocence. And I'd ask that you take a moment to imagine actually being in that situation - charged with murder - no evidence against you, but it's your job to provide evidence of your innocence.

Could you not insist that your debotched view of our faith is the correct manner it is practiced? You know listen rather than dictate?
Just as you claim to have studied atheism, I have studied theism and most specifically, Christianity. Just because you're a Christian doesn't mean you can sit here and tell me that Christianity is about atonement, when no "atonement" takes place. Words have specific meanings and the meaning of atonement is inconsistent with how it is used in Christianity. So if you tell me Christianity is about atonement, then I'm going to point out that it doesn't offer anything consistent with the meaning of that word. And if you can't control your anger that I'm being completely open and honest about that, then it's going to be up to you how you choose to react. My point is that we should both (hopefully) be able to actually discuss these differences in our views, rather than always sinking into a pure exchange of insults and expletives, without any actual debate. I've not noticed that it gets us anywhere when we do that, and both of us have done that in the past.

Could you assume that 'mere disbelief in God,' is not a difficult concept to understand?
I do more than assume that. I fully accept that. And if you can understand that - as you're suggesting that you do - I would hope that you can accept that atheism is nothing more than that. There are other beliefs common to many atheists outside of that, but disbelief in gods is the whole of atheism. It doesn't promote evolution, while most atheists do. It doesn't proclaim anything about diversity of intellect, while most atheists do. It takes no stand on the moral codes of the Bible, while most atheists do. If I could show that most Christians are republicans, that doesn't make the republican platform part of Christian doctrine. And it's the same for atheism. Just because most (or even all) atheists may agree on a certain belief, philosophy, standard of science, standard of legal proceeding... whatever, if it's not "disbelief in gods", then it's not a standard of atheism.

That sounds like a good place to start, rather than running around blaming others.
There will likely be blame. There will be frustration. There will be a feeling of defensiveness and all of the unpleasantness that goes along with it. But hopefully, we can try keeping it to a level which accompanies debate, rather than replacing it. And if we can manage that, we'll exceed my expectations. If we manage for only half a day, I don't see that we'll have lost anything.
"If we believe absurdities we shall commit atrocities." -- Voltaire
neutral
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8/23/2014 7:14:05 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/23/2014 7:11:19 AM, dee-em wrote:

I'll respond (but not to the false dichotomy).

I don't condone the goading which bulproof engages in. He often makes valid points though and, at least in this case, there is no personal abuse that I can see.

Really? Show me one.
neutral
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8/23/2014 7:19:04 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/23/2014 7:13:39 AM, Beastt wrote:


Could you may begin your attacks on religion by ACTUALLY sighting the doctrinal statement you disagree with?
When appropriate. Again; I really don't care how doctrine reads. I'm far more concerned with how it manifests.

And there is the crux of the issue. Your 'manifestations' are BS.

DO we actually commit genocide? Do we rape writ large? Do we not study science in schools? Are there no religious scientists? Am I, right now, putting slave collars on my subjects? Am I openly condemning you to Hell? Is anyone on this forum doing so? Are we all dumber than rocks? Do we NOT actually forgive people, ever? Is Atonement not actually practiced in churches? Churches NEVER engage in charity or run soup kitchens? There is NO evidence of Jesus because we are addled twits? Etc etc.

You aren;t concerned with 'manifestations' you are concerned with bad mouthing us and running rough shod over the reality of our faith as practiced. God forbid anyone attempt to correct these ... then comes the personal attacks ... which apparently are provoking - but not the continuous slander?

Atheists are all pedophiles.
dee-em
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8/23/2014 7:19:49 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/23/2014 7:05:39 AM, neutral wrote:
At 8/23/2014 7:00:43 AM, dee-em wrote:

That goes both ways, correct? Lumping 'religion' all together?

Again, you side with Beasty for emotional reasons and avoid the reality, so address the points.

What do you expect when you run around accusing people of being rapists, slavers, misogynists, murdering genocidal maniacs, while pointedly ignoring the rebuttals to keep saying the same thing over and over again anyway?

You expect the result to be civility? Or is that designed specifically to create an emotional response, a practice known as flame bait? A practice that is being ignored by the moderators currently?

Again, you say civility is necessary, I agree - but the cause is atheists IMHO.

I will apply it again, you decide, if I constantly throw Dawkins comments about pedophilia in your face, and accuse you PERSONALLY of supporting pedophilia - commanded by your ing no less - am I attempting to engage you in a rational discussion or flame bait?

You tell me? Who is provoking who there? If you dismiss me as a troll after calling you a pedophile ... well, Not 'I' have been provoked correct? My personal attacks on you justified heretofore, correct?

So what is the problem here? What is the solution? Especially in the absence of moderation?

I'm trying hard to be a moderate voice but I can see that isn't working, so I'll bow out. You're both grown-ups. Sort it out.
dee-em
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8/23/2014 7:23:06 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/23/2014 7:14:05 AM, neutral wrote:
At 8/23/2014 7:11:19 AM, dee-em wrote:

I'll respond (but not to the false dichotomy).

I don't condone the goading which bulproof engages in. He often makes valid points though and, at least in this case, there is no personal abuse that I can see.

Really? Show me one.

I was referring to post #16 which I had quoted. He's gone feral again though I notice. Not good.
neutral
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8/23/2014 7:23:36 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/23/2014 7:19:49 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 8/23/2014 7:05:39 AM, neutral wrote:
At 8/23/2014 7:00:43 AM, dee-em wrote:

That goes both ways, correct? Lumping 'religion' all together?

Again, you side with Beasty for emotional reasons and avoid the reality, so address the points.

What do you expect when you run around accusing people of being rapists, slavers, misogynists, murdering genocidal maniacs, while pointedly ignoring the rebuttals to keep saying the same thing over and over again anyway?

You expect the result to be civility? Or is that designed specifically to create an emotional response, a practice known as flame bait? A practice that is being ignored by the moderators currently?

Again, you say civility is necessary, I agree - but the cause is atheists IMHO.

I will apply it again, you decide, if I constantly throw Dawkins comments about pedophilia in your face, and accuse you PERSONALLY of supporting pedophilia - commanded by your ing no less - am I attempting to engage you in a rational discussion or flame bait?

You tell me? Who is provoking who there? If you dismiss me as a troll after calling you a pedophile ... well, Not 'I' have been provoked correct? My personal attacks on you justified heretofore, correct?

So what is the problem here? What is the solution? Especially in the absence of moderation?

I'm trying hard to be a moderate voice but I can see that isn't working, so I'll bow out. You're both grown-ups. Sort it out.

You are pretending that one side is not at fault - is the middle ground fallacy.

middle ground
You claimed that a compromise, or middle point, between two extremes must be the truth.
Much of the time the truth does indeed lie between two extreme points, but this can bias our thinking: sometimes a thing is simply untrue and a compromise of it is also untrue. Half way between truth and a lie, is still a lie.

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com...

When you see comments like this and pretend that there is no problem?

At 8/23/2014 7:03:21 AM, bulproof wrote:
You catholic priests always blame someone else for your little boy fuking. When did you join the priesthood. ROFL. LMFAO

Fuking moron. How do you feel about your god ordering pedophilic rape and infanticide?

Religious people are exposed to that behavior EVERY DAY, and the fact that excuse it and pretend it is not happening IS THE PROBLEM.

We religious people, in a f*cking religion forum, are the ones that have to deal with it everyday - precisely because atheists keep making excuses for it.
Beastt
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8/23/2014 7:24:18 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/23/2014 6:57:46 AM, neutral wrote:
At 8/23/2014 6:56:33 AM, bulproof wrote:

Your god supports and orders such behaviour, the fact that it makes your claims ridiculous is what is being explained to you.
Talk to your god and get a new holy book that doesn't support rape, genocide, infanticide.
It's your religion deal with it.

Well Beasty, here is your opportunity to condemn the behavior.

Either troll boy here and his actions are wrong - or all atheists are pedophiles.

Pick your standard.

I'm not here to condemn behaviors. I'm here to suggest that there are options for anyone and everyone who might choose to try them. We're all adults here, though when we start letting tempers flare, all of us (certainly, myself included) have occasion to act a bit more like children. One person boils over, unleashes on another, an exchange of unproductive incite begins, a few others join in and eventually, someone not involved makes one comment, and receives the full brunt of all of the anger and temper that has been incited thus far.

Speaking for myself, it leaves one feeling defensive - as though anyone with an alternative comment is lunging for the throat, when some are only making an observation. The entire debate escalates into mayhem and I'm right there at the top shaking my torch and pitchfork along with the rest. But I'm thinking perhaps that's not where I wish to be. So if I want to try a different approach, I can either ignore anyone I have a history with who appears quick to pure abuse and instigation (and thus be accused of hiding), or to hope to maintain discourse with those individuals, but at a (possibly) more productive level.
"If we believe absurdities we shall commit atrocities." -- Voltaire
neutral
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8/23/2014 7:24:34 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/23/2014 7:23:06 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 8/23/2014 7:14:05 AM, neutral wrote:
At 8/23/2014 7:11:19 AM, dee-em wrote:

I'll respond (but not to the false dichotomy).

I don't condone the goading which bulproof engages in. He often makes valid points though and, at least in this case, there is no personal abuse that I can see.

Really? Show me one.

I was referring to post #16 which I had quoted. He's gone feral again though I notice. Not good.

He does that constantly.

So the point I keep making - how can any atheist talk about civility and discussion without addressing the plank in their own eye first?