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Christians/Muslims and omniscience.

bulproof
Posts: 25,303
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8/23/2014 11:56:21 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
WTF is it you people don't get about omniscience? It means ALL KNOWING. So someone can't sneak up behind you, you can't suddenly discover something you already knew it.
You create bulproof and you know, not think, that his final destination is hell and what you know can't be changed.
You create bulproof and you know, not think, that his final destination is heaven and what you know can't be changed.

Now whatever I do is predestined because an omniscient god already knows what I will do. Whatever I do, go to heaven or go to hell is already decided from before creation because an omniscient god already knows it.
Rosessence
Posts: 32
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8/24/2014 1:59:54 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
You cant examine nature of god by dividing it into one of its features at a time. When god is omniscient, it is also creator, all present, timeless, owner of worlds, etc etc.
God's knowing isnt some sort of a info like our knowing. God is the creator of that all 'knowing'
God creates billion yous depending on each choices you ever met you picked or didnt pick. All the possible yous are created. Think of it like parallel realities. God doesnt pick one you over another, creates all of them. They are all god's will. And you highlight one of these as 'you' through your will in this time space. And sadly you will remember only it as you.
Dragonfang
Posts: 1,122
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8/24/2014 3:07:10 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Are you claiming that foreknowledge implies causality? Because that seems to be the core of you argument.
Rosessence
Posts: 32
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8/24/2014 5:06:12 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/24/2014 3:07:10 PM, Dragonfang wrote:
Are you claiming that foreknowledge implies causality? Because that seems to be the core of you argument.

Erm. No. 'Foreknowledge' is not the right word to begin to understand my point. Omit that understanding that god has only knowledge or foreknowledge. God is something more complex than that. Try to see in that perceptive that god doesnt give up being a everpresent timeless creator when it is omniscient and combine purpose of creation with it.
dee-em
Posts: 6,490
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8/24/2014 6:01:08 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/24/2014 1:59:54 PM, Rosessence wrote:
You cant examine nature of god by dividing it into one of its features at a time. When god is omniscient, it is also creator, all present, timeless, owner of worlds, etc etc.
God's knowing isnt some sort of a info like our knowing. God is the creator of that all 'knowing'
God creates billion yous depending on each choices you ever met you picked or didnt pick. All the possible yous are created. Think of it like parallel realities. God doesnt pick one you over another, creates all of them. They are all god's will. And you highlight one of these as 'you' through your will in this time space. And sadly you will remember only it as you.

That's just pseudo-scientific nonsense. There's no getting away from it. If god is all-knowing then he surely knows each choice you are going to make before you make it. If he doesn't then he can't be all knowing. It's cut and dried. So if god knows your choices before you make them, any 'choice' you appear to have is illusory. It can't be otherwise.
dee-em
Posts: 6,490
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8/24/2014 6:08:12 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/24/2014 5:06:12 PM, Rosessence wrote:
At 8/24/2014 3:07:10 PM, Dragonfang wrote:
Are you claiming that foreknowledge implies causality? Because that seems to be the core of you argument.

Erm. No. 'Foreknowledge' is not the right word to begin to understand my point. Omit that understanding that god has only knowledge or foreknowledge. God is something more complex than that. Try to see in that perceptive that god doesnt give up being a everpresent timeless creator when it is omniscient and combine purpose of creation with it.

Are you admitting that god is not omniscient?

If the perspective is that god is in a continuous creation mode (whatever that means because nothing is being created within our universe to the best of our knowledge) then you abandon omniscience. If he's simply building from a predetermined plan, then there's no free will. There's no escaping the logic.
Rosessence
Posts: 32
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8/24/2014 6:44:19 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/24/2014 6:08:12 PM, dee-em wrote:
At 8/24/2014 5:06:12 PM, Rosessence wrote:
At 8/24/2014 3:07:10 PM, Dragonfang wrote:
Are you claiming that foreknowledge implies causality? Because that seems to be the core of you argument.

Erm. No. 'Foreknowledge' is not the right word to begin to understand my point. Omit that understanding that god has only knowledge or foreknowledge. God is something more complex than that. Try to see in that perceptive that god doesnt give up being a everpresent timeless creator when it is omniscient and combine purpose of creation with it.

Are you admitting that god is not omniscient?

If the perspective is that god is in a continuous creation mode (whatever that means because nothing is being created within our universe to the best of our knowledge) then you abandon omniscience. If he's simply building from a predetermined plan, then there's no free will. There's no escaping the logic.

Again you lost me when you said there is nothing created in universe.
We are talking about god i presume. So perhaps we arent the best couple to engage in this thread.

Lets try one last time. What predetermined plan there is, or could there be any plan more heavily favoured if god is creating (for lack of a perfect tense for a timeless being)all possible outcomes for each possible choice we can think of or cant imagine as if they are happenning alltogethe at once?
So, should we come to the purpose of creation or are we still caught up questioning if there is god or not. LOL.
dee-em
Posts: 6,490
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8/24/2014 7:00:52 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/24/2014 6:44:19 PM, Rosessence wrote:
At 8/24/2014 6:08:12 PM, dee-em wrote:
At 8/24/2014 5:06:12 PM, Rosessence wrote:
At 8/24/2014 3:07:10 PM, Dragonfang wrote:
Are you claiming that foreknowledge implies causality? Because that seems to be the core of you argument.

Erm. No. 'Foreknowledge' is not the right word to begin to understand my point. Omit that understanding that god has only knowledge or foreknowledge. God is something more complex than that. Try to see in that perceptive that god doesnt give up being a everpresent timeless creator when it is omniscient and combine purpose of creation with it.

Are you admitting that god is not omniscient?

If the perspective is that god is in a continuous creation mode (whatever that means because nothing is being created within our universe to the best of our knowledge) then you abandon omniscience. If he's simply building from a predetermined plan, then there's no free will. There's no escaping the logic.

Again you lost me when you said there is nothing created in universe.
We are talking about god i presume. So perhaps we arent the best couple to engage in this thread.

It's a perfectly simple statement. If you have a single example of something real being created in the universe, please put it forward. I think you'll find that transformations are taking place, but nothing is ever created or destroyed.

Lets try one last time. What predetermined plan there is, or could there be any plan more heavily favoured if god is creating (for lack of a perfect tense for a timeless being)all possible outcomes for each possible choice we can think of or cant imagine as if they are happenning alltogethe at once?

Your rather convoluted sentence structure makes it hard to decipher your meaning. Could you try and express your ideas again in a more straightforward way so that I can be clear as your position?

As far as I can see, you seem to be equating god with the universe. I'd like to know, and for you to evidence, what role god plays as the universe evolves. You seem to have him as a puppet master, but where is the evidence for that and how exactly does it address the conflict between omniscience and predetermination?

So, should we come to the purpose of creation or are we still caught up questioning if there is god or not. LOL.

Huh? Off-topic.
sovereigngracereigns
Posts: 585
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8/24/2014 7:07:44 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/23/2014 11:56:21 AM, bulproof wrote:
WTF is it you people don't get about omniscience? It means ALL KNOWING. So someone can't sneak up behind you, you can't suddenly discover something you already knew it.
You create bulproof and you know, not think, that his final destination is hell and what you know can't be changed.
You create bulproof and you know, not think, that his final destination is heaven and what you know can't be changed.

Now whatever I do is predestined because an omniscient god already knows what I will do. Whatever I do, go to heaven or go to hell is already decided from before creation because an omniscient god already knows it.

That's all very true.
But what is your point?

Do you think that's an excuse for not repenting of your sin and believing on his Son, Jesus Christ?

God commands you to repent of your sin and believe on his Son, or you will spend eternity in Hell.

And yes, he knows whether you will or will not obey that command.
In fact, all men are so lost and deceived, and so stubborn and prideful, that they will only obey it if he MAKES them willing.

So, the bottom line is, if God intends to save you, he'll save you.
And if he does not intend to save you, he won't.

And if God intends to save you, you WILL, AT SOME POINT, repent of your sin and believe.

If not, then he won't, and you won't.

You have nothing to gain by refusing to repent and believe. You'll just be condemned.

And you won't be able to JUSTLY blame GOD or use his omniscience as an excuse.

You knew very well that God commanded you to repent and believe. You just refused to obey the command.

Listen:
"He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

(John 3:36)
dee-em
Posts: 6,490
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8/24/2014 10:57:24 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/24/2014 7:07:44 PM, sovereigngracereigns wrote:

You knew very well that God commanded you to repent and believe. You just refused to obey the command.

You just don't get it. God knows, and has always known, that bulproof would not be a believer. It was his destiny to be exactly the way he is. And yet your god is going to damn him to Hell anyway.
sovereigngracereigns
Posts: 585
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8/24/2014 11:03:28 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/24/2014 10:57:24 PM, dee-em wrote:
At 8/24/2014 7:07:44 PM, sovereigngracereigns wrote:

You knew very well that God commanded you to repent and believe. You just refused to obey the command.

You just don't get it. God knows, and has always known, that bulproof would not be a believer. It was his destiny to be exactly the way he is. And yet your god is going to damn him to Hell anyway.

First of all, how do you know that bulproof is never going to become a believer?

As long as there's still breath in his lungs, there's still hope that God may open his eyes and save him.

Furthermore, even if bulproof does die without faith and go to Hell, it's not God's fault.

If anyone goes to Hell, it will be for his own sins, not God's or anyone else's.
dee-em
Posts: 6,490
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8/24/2014 11:15:24 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/24/2014 11:03:28 PM, sovereigngracereigns wrote:
At 8/24/2014 10:57:24 PM, dee-em wrote:
At 8/24/2014 7:07:44 PM, sovereigngracereigns wrote:

You knew very well that God commanded you to repent and believe. You just refused to obey the command.

You just don't get it. God knows, and has always known, that bulproof would not be a believer. It was his destiny to be exactly the way he is. And yet your god is going to damn him to Hell anyway.

First of all, how do you know that bulproof is never going to become a believer?

I don't know. The point is that god does. Let's assume it (it's the safe bet).

As long as there's still breath in his lungs, there's still hope that God may open his eyes and save him.

It's not a question of hope if god is omniscient. He already knows one way or the other.

Furthermore, even if bulproof does die without faith and go to Hell, it's not God's fault.

You mean a god who has known since before creation that he was going to create a being named bulproof who would never be a believer, then sends that being to Hell as punishment, even though bulproof had no choice but to fulfill his destiny, is not at fault? Whose fault is it? It can't be bulproof's.

If anyone goes to Hell, it will be for his own sins, not God's or anyone else's.

See above.
bulproof
Posts: 25,303
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8/24/2014 11:17:53 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/24/2014 11:03:28 PM, sovereigngracereigns wrote:
At 8/24/2014 10:57:24 PM, dee-em wrote:
At 8/24/2014 7:07:44 PM, sovereigngracereigns wrote:

You knew very well that God commanded you to repent and believe. You just refused to obey the command.

You just don't get it. God knows, and has always known, that bulproof would not be a believer. It was his destiny to be exactly the way he is. And yet your god is going to damn him to Hell anyway.

First of all, how do you know that bulproof is never going to become a believer?
And if I become a believer it's god's will. Nothing I can do about it.
As long as there's still breath in his lungs, there's still hope that God may open his eyes and save him.
Once again what I am doing is god's will, if he doesn't want to save me then he sends me to hell.
Furthermore, even if bulproof does die without faith and go to Hell, it's not God's fault.
Of course it is. He created me with the full knowledge of that result. IOW I was created for the specific purpose of eternal torture by LOVE.
If anyone goes to Hell, it will be for his own sins, not God's or anyone else's.
It will be because god created them for that purpose, that's called LOVE.
sovereigngracereigns
Posts: 585
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8/24/2014 11:20:16 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/24/2014 11:15:24 PM, dee-em wrote:
At 8/24/2014 11:03:28 PM, sovereigngracereigns wrote:
At 8/24/2014 10:57:24 PM, dee-em wrote:
At 8/24/2014 7:07:44 PM, sovereigngracereigns wrote:

You knew very well that God commanded you to repent and believe. You just refused to obey the command.

You just don't get it. God knows, and has always known, that bulproof would not be a believer. It was his destiny to be exactly the way he is. And yet your god is going to damn him to Hell anyway.

First of all, how do you know that bulproof is never going to become a believer?

I don't know. The point is that god does. Let's assume it (it's the safe bet).

As long as there's still breath in his lungs, there's still hope that God may open his eyes and save him.

It's not a question of hope if god is omniscient. He already knows one way or the other.


It never ceases to amaze me how people can't grasp such a simple concept.

YES, GOD knows who will be saved and who won't.

But WE DON'T.

So, FROM OUR PERSPECTIVE, there is still hope.

Don't you see that?

If not, then don't even bother to respond to this.

If you can't grasp such a simple concept as "God is omniscient, but we are not", then there is no point in continuing this with you.
annanicole
Posts: 19,791
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8/24/2014 11:22:17 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/23/2014 11:56:21 AM, bulproof wrote:
WTF is it you people don't get about omniscience? It means ALL KNOWING. So someone can't sneak up behind you, you can't suddenly discover something you already knew it.
You create bulproof and you know, not think, that his final destination is hell and what you know can't be changed.
You create bulproof and you know, not think, that his final destination is heaven and what you know can't be changed.

Now whatever I do is predestined because an omniscient god already knows what I will do. Whatever I do, go to heaven or go to hell is already decided from before creation because an omniscient god already knows it.

I think you should argue it out with "sovereigngrace". He appears to have taken the bait.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
bulproof
Posts: 25,303
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8/24/2014 11:23:51 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/24/2014 11:20:16 PM, sovereigngracereigns wrote:
At 8/24/2014 11:15:24 PM, dee-em wrote:
At 8/24/2014 11:03:28 PM, sovereigngracereigns wrote:
At 8/24/2014 10:57:24 PM, dee-em wrote:
At 8/24/2014 7:07:44 PM, sovereigngracereigns wrote:

You knew very well that God commanded you to repent and believe. You just refused to obey the command.

You just don't get it. God knows, and has always known, that bulproof would not be a believer. It was his destiny to be exactly the way he is. And yet your god is going to damn him to Hell anyway.

First of all, how do you know that bulproof is never going to become a believer?

I don't know. The point is that god does. Let's assume it (it's the safe bet).

As long as there's still breath in his lungs, there's still hope that God may open his eyes and save him.

It's not a question of hope if god is omniscient. He already knows one way or the other.


It never ceases to amaze me how people can't grasp such a simple concept.

YES, GOD knows who will be saved and who won't.

But WE DON'T.

So, FROM OUR PERSPECTIVE, there is still hope.

Don't you see that?

If not, then don't even bother to respond to this.

If you can't grasp such a simple concept as "God is omniscient, but we are not", then there is no point in continuing this with you.

Your claim is that god knows I'm going to hell, but I can do something that proves god wrong and go to heaven. Why do you call this dude a god?
dee-em
Posts: 6,490
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8/24/2014 11:30:39 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/24/2014 11:20:16 PM, sovereigngracereigns wrote:
At 8/24/2014 11:15:24 PM, dee-em wrote:
At 8/24/2014 11:03:28 PM, sovereigngracereigns wrote:
At 8/24/2014 10:57:24 PM, dee-em wrote:
At 8/24/2014 7:07:44 PM, sovereigngracereigns wrote:

You knew very well that God commanded you to repent and believe. You just refused to obey the command.

You just don't get it. God knows, and has always known, that bulproof would not be a believer. It was his destiny to be exactly the way he is. And yet your god is going to damn him to Hell anyway.

First of all, how do you know that bulproof is never going to become a believer?

I don't know. The point is that god does. Let's assume it (it's the safe bet).

As long as there's still breath in his lungs, there's still hope that God may open his eyes and save him.

It's not a question of hope if god is omniscient. He already knows one way or the other.


It never ceases to amaze me how people can't grasp such a simple concept.

YES, GOD knows who will be saved and who won't.

But WE DON'T.

So, FROM OUR PERSPECTIVE, there is still hope.

Don't you see that?

If not, then don't even bother to respond to this.

If you can't grasp such a simple concept as "God is omniscient, but we are not", then there is no point in continuing this with you.

You've missed the point. It's not about whether we should have hope or not - your point there is valid. The issue is god's punishment of unbelievers when he knows beforehand what their destiny is. How can you punish someone for fulfilling their predetermined outcome whatever it may be? We're talking about god's perspective, not ours.
sovereigngracereigns
Posts: 585
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8/24/2014 11:39:53 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/24/2014 11:17:53 PM, bulproof wrote:
At 8/24/2014 11:03:28 PM, sovereigngracereigns wrote:
At 8/24/2014 10:57:24 PM, dee-em wrote:
At 8/24/2014 7:07:44 PM, sovereigngracereigns wrote:

You knew very well that God commanded you to repent and believe. You just refused to obey the command.

You just don't get it. God knows, and has always known, that bulproof would not be a believer. It was his destiny to be exactly the way he is. And yet your god is going to damn him to Hell anyway.

First of all, how do you know that bulproof is never going to become a believer?
And if I become a believer it's god's will. Nothing I can do about it.

That's correct.

As long as there's still breath in his lungs, there's still hope that God may open his eyes and save him.
Once again what I am doing is god's will, if he doesn't want to save me then he sends me to hell.

That's also correct.

Furthermore, even if bulproof does die without faith and go to Hell, it's not God's fault.
Of course it is. He created me with the full knowledge of that result. IOW I was created for the specific purpose of eternal torture by LOVE.

Nope.
Now, you've missed it.

If anyone goes to Hell, it will be for his own sins, not God's or anyone else's.
It will be because god created them for that purpose, that's called LOVE.

Wrong again.

Look, it's very simple:

ALL the descendants of Adam are sinners, by nature and by practice, and deserve to go to Hell.

But God predestinated and elected a particular number of people that he purposes to save by grace.

All those who were predestinated and appointed to be saved had their sins atoned for by the death of Jesus Christ.

And all those for whom Christ died will receive God's Spirit and will repent and believe on Christ.

Everyone else is going to Hell for their sins, because they have no atonement, no repentance, and no faith.

Therefore, if anyone goes to Hell, it's because of their sin, and if anyone is saved it's because of God's grace.

God has the right to have mercy on whom he will have mercy, and compassion on whom he'll have compassion.

And there isn't a thing you can do to change that, all you can do is seek his mercy.

Christ said:
"All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will by no means cast out."(John 6:37)

So, the question is:
Will you come to Christ and receive mercy?
Or will you die in your sins and go to Hell?

YES, GOD KNOWS what the answer to that is, but NO ONE ELSE DOES, so, from OUR PERSPECTIVE, there's still HOPE for you.

And again, you are correct about one thing:
If God wants to save you he will, and if he doesn't want to save you he won't.

But it is the HEIGHT of IGNORANCE to BLAME GOD for YOUR SINS.

If God is pleased to save you, you'll admit you were wrong.
sovereigngracereigns
Posts: 585
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8/24/2014 11:42:27 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/24/2014 11:23:51 PM, bulproof wrote:
At 8/24/2014 11:20:16 PM, sovereigngracereigns wrote:
At 8/24/2014 11:15:24 PM, dee-em wrote:
At 8/24/2014 11:03:28 PM, sovereigngracereigns wrote:
At 8/24/2014 10:57:24 PM, dee-em wrote:
At 8/24/2014 7:07:44 PM, sovereigngracereigns wrote:

You knew very well that God commanded you to repent and believe. You just refused to obey the command.

You just don't get it. God knows, and has always known, that bulproof would not be a believer. It was his destiny to be exactly the way he is. And yet your god is going to damn him to Hell anyway.

First of all, how do you know that bulproof is never going to become a believer?

I don't know. The point is that god does. Let's assume it (it's the safe bet).

As long as there's still breath in his lungs, there's still hope that God may open his eyes and save him.

It's not a question of hope if god is omniscient. He already knows one way or the other.


It never ceases to amaze me how people can't grasp such a simple concept.

YES, GOD knows who will be saved and who won't.

But WE DON'T.

So, FROM OUR PERSPECTIVE, there is still hope.

Don't you see that?

If not, then don't even bother to respond to this.

If you can't grasp such a simple concept as "God is omniscient, but we are not", then there is no point in continuing this with you.

Your claim is that god knows I'm going to hell, but I can do something that proves god wrong and go to heaven. Why do you call this dude a god?

I never said you can do something that proves God wrong and go to Heaven.

I'm saying if you go to Heaven, it's because God saved you.
sovereigngracereigns
Posts: 585
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8/25/2014 12:01:28 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/24/2014 11:30:39 PM, dee-em wrote:
At 8/24/2014 11:20:16 PM, sovereigngracereigns wrote:
At 8/24/2014 11:15:24 PM, dee-em wrote:
At 8/24/2014 11:03:28 PM, sovereigngracereigns wrote:
At 8/24/2014 10:57:24 PM, dee-em wrote:
At 8/24/2014 7:07:44 PM, sovereigngracereigns wrote:

You knew very well that God commanded you to repent and believe. You just refused to obey the command.

You just don't get it. God knows, and has always known, that bulproof would not be a believer. It was his destiny to be exactly the way he is. And yet your god is going to damn him to Hell anyway.

First of all, how do you know that bulproof is never going to become a believer?

I don't know. The point is that god does. Let's assume it (it's the safe bet).

As long as there's still breath in his lungs, there's still hope that God may open his eyes and save him.

It's not a question of hope if god is omniscient. He already knows one way or the other.


It never ceases to amaze me how people can't grasp such a simple concept.

YES, GOD knows who will be saved and who won't.

But WE DON'T.

So, FROM OUR PERSPECTIVE, there is still hope.

Don't you see that?

If not, then don't even bother to respond to this.

If you can't grasp such a simple concept as "God is omniscient, but we are not", then there is no point in continuing this with you.

You've missed the point. It's not about whether we should have hope or not - your point there is valid. The issue is god's punishment of unbelievers when he knows beforehand what their destiny is. How can you punish someone for fulfilling their predetermined outcome whatever it may be? We're talking about god's perspective, not ours.

God predetermined to let human beings fall into sin. But God is not responsible for the sin.

The sinner him/herself is responsible for his/her sin.

The fact that God predetermines to save or not save doesn't make God responsible for the sin.

If God damns a sinner, it's just, because the sinner deserved it.
And God he saves a sinner, it's just, because Christ paid for it.

And salvation is NOT a RIGHT.
It's not something that anyone DESERVES.
It's GOD'S right to save whom he will.

So, I don't really see your point.
If you're accusing God of injustice, or of sin, then you're way off the mark.
dee-em
Posts: 6,490
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8/25/2014 12:07:47 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
There once was a clockmaker who made two types of clocks. He made one type which kept time uniformly. He rewarded this type when they were retired by gold-plating them and putting them into a trophy case for permanent display. He made another type of clock which sometimes ran too fast and sometimes ran too slow. He knew as he was making it that it that it would never keep time evenly. When customers returned the second type of clock the clockmaker would angrily smash it with a hammer and throw the broken bits and pieces into a pit.

Should the clockmaker blame the second type of clock for fulfilling its nature as designed?
Whose fault was it that the second type did not work in the way the clockmaker preferred?
bulproof
Posts: 25,303
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8/25/2014 12:11:09 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/24/2014 11:42:27 PM, sovereigngracereigns wrote:
At 8/24/2014 11:23:51 PM, bulproof wrote:
At 8/24/2014 11:20:16 PM, sovereigngracereigns wrote:
At 8/24/2014 11:15:24 PM, dee-em wrote:
At 8/24/2014 11:03:28 PM, sovereigngracereigns wrote:
At 8/24/2014 10:57:24 PM, dee-em wrote:
At 8/24/2014 7:07:44 PM, sovereigngracereigns wrote:

You knew very well that God commanded you to repent and believe. You just refused to obey the command.

You just don't get it. God knows, and has always known, that bulproof would not be a believer. It was his destiny to be exactly the way he is. And yet your god is going to damn him to Hell anyway.

First of all, how do you know that bulproof is never going to become a believer?

I don't know. The point is that god does. Let's assume it (it's the safe bet).

As long as there's still breath in his lungs, there's still hope that God may open his eyes and save him.

It's not a question of hope if god is omniscient. He already knows one way or the other.


It never ceases to amaze me how people can't grasp such a simple concept.

YES, GOD knows who will be saved and who won't.

But WE DON'T.

So, FROM OUR PERSPECTIVE, there is still hope.

Don't you see that?

If not, then don't even bother to respond to this.

If you can't grasp such a simple concept as "God is omniscient, but we are not", then there is no point in continuing this with you.

Your claim is that god knows I'm going to hell, but I can do something that proves god wrong and go to heaven. Why do you call this dude a god?

I never said you can do something that proves God wrong and go to Heaven.

I'm saying if you go to Heaven, it's because God saved you.

Then this hope you speak of is a false hope. One's fate is decided before creation. So you can bow and scrape and worship till the cows come home but it won't make a scrap of difference if god hasn't already chosen you for heaven. Hope in one hand and spit in the other and tell me which one gets wet.
dee-em
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8/25/2014 12:16:31 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/25/2014 12:01:28 AM, sovereigngracereigns wrote:

God predetermined to let human beings fall into sin. But God is not responsible for the sin.

But humans don't "fall into sin" of their own volition. An all-knowing god has known before you were born whether you would or not. You have no choice but to live out your destiny. You only have the illusion of choice. God has already predetermined what your fate will be.

The sinner him/herself is responsible for his/her sin.

Not if his life is predetermined.

The fact that God predetermines to save or not save doesn't make God responsible for the sin.

See my analogy above.

If God damns a sinner, it's just, because the sinner deserved it.
And God he saves a sinner, it's just, because Christ paid for it.

And salvation is NOT a RIGHT.
It's not something that anyone DESERVES.
It's GOD'S right to save whom he will.

So, I don't really see your point.
If you're accusing God of injustice, or of sin, then you're way off the mark.
sovereigngracereigns
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8/25/2014 12:19:33 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/25/2014 12:07:47 AM, dee-em wrote:
There once was a clockmaker who made two types of clocks. He made one type which kept time uniformly. He rewarded this type when they were retired by gold-plating them and putting them into a trophy case for permanent display. He made another type of clock which sometimes ran too fast and sometimes ran too slow. He knew as he was making it that it that it would never keep time evenly. When customers returned the second type of clock the clockmaker would angrily smash it with a hammer and throw the broken bits and pieces into a pit.

Should the clockmaker blame the second type of clock for fulfilling its nature as designed?
Whose fault was it that the second type did not work in the way the clockmaker preferred?

But see, your analogy doesn't work at all, because God didn't create any "clocks that keep time uniformly"!

They ALL run erratically! Don't you get that?

NOBODY is being rewarded for their own good behavior.
God saves people IN SPITE OF their sin.

They're saved because of what CHRIST has done for them.

You see, ALL have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God.
God just chooses to SAVE SOME, and NOT SAVE OTHERS.

And as far as God having the right to save some and not others, that's addressed in Romans, Chapter 9:

Verses 14-24:

14 "What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! 15 For He says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion." 16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth." 18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.

19 You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?" 20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, "Why have you made me like this?" 21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?

22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?"
dee-em
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8/25/2014 12:23:01 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/25/2014 12:19:33 AM, sovereigngracereigns wrote:
At 8/25/2014 12:07:47 AM, dee-em wrote:
There once was a clockmaker who made two types of clocks. He made one type which kept time uniformly. He rewarded this type when they were retired by gold-plating them and putting them into a trophy case for permanent display. He made another type of clock which sometimes ran too fast and sometimes ran too slow. He knew as he was making it that it that it would never keep time evenly. When customers returned the second type of clock the clockmaker would angrily smash it with a hammer and throw the broken bits and pieces into a pit.

Should the clockmaker blame the second type of clock for fulfilling its nature as designed?
Whose fault was it that the second type did not work in the way the clockmaker preferred?

But see, your analogy doesn't work at all, because God didn't create any "clocks that keep time uniformly"!

They ALL run erratically! Don't you get that?

You've missed the point entirely.
bulproof
Posts: 25,303
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8/25/2014 12:24:06 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
Before creation god chose who to save and who to condemn.
But god went ahead and created those he would condemn to eternal torture anyway, that is the purest of evil.
The condemned have no chance of salvation because they were condemned before creation.

I know why these people can't bring themselves to understand this, because it completely destroys their beliefs if they allow themselves to understand.
sovereigngracereigns
Posts: 585
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8/25/2014 12:26:06 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/25/2014 12:11:09 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 8/24/2014 11:42:27 PM, sovereigngracereigns wrote:
At 8/24/2014 11:23:51 PM, bulproof wrote:
At 8/24/2014 11:20:16 PM, sovereigngracereigns wrote:
At 8/24/2014 11:15:24 PM, dee-em wrote:
At 8/24/2014 11:03:28 PM, sovereigngracereigns wrote:
At 8/24/2014 10:57:24 PM, dee-em wrote:
At 8/24/2014 7:07:44 PM, sovereigngracereigns wrote:

You knew very well that God commanded you to repent and believe. You just refused to obey the command.

You just don't get it. God knows, and has always known, that bulproof would not be a believer. It was his destiny to be exactly the way he is. And yet your god is going to damn him to Hell anyway.

First of all, how do you know that bulproof is never going to become a believer?

I don't know. The point is that god does. Let's assume it (it's the safe bet).

As long as there's still breath in his lungs, there's still hope that God may open his eyes and save him.

It's not a question of hope if god is omniscient. He already knows one way or the other.


It never ceases to amaze me how people can't grasp such a simple concept.

YES, GOD knows who will be saved and who won't.

But WE DON'T.

So, FROM OUR PERSPECTIVE, there is still hope.

Don't you see that?

If not, then don't even bother to respond to this.

If you can't grasp such a simple concept as "God is omniscient, but we are not", then there is no point in continuing this with you.

Your claim is that god knows I'm going to hell, but I can do something that proves god wrong and go to heaven. Why do you call this dude a god?

I never said you can do something that proves God wrong and go to Heaven.

I'm saying if you go to Heaven, it's because God saved you.

Then this hope you speak of is a false hope. One's fate is decided before creation. So you can bow and scrape and worship till the cows come home but it won't make a scrap of difference if god hasn't already chosen you for heaven.

That's true.
But YOU DON'T KNOW if you're predestined to be saved or not.

YOU JUST NEED MERCY!
Stop making it so complicated!

Just leave the predestinating to GOD, alright?
And YOU worry about SEEKING MERCY.

Again,
Christ said:
"All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will by no means cast out." (John 6:37)

Don't worry about whether or not you were one of those who were given to Christ.
Just come to Christ and receive mercy.
sovereigngracereigns
Posts: 585
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8/25/2014 12:30:16 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/25/2014 12:24:06 AM, bulproof wrote:
Before creation god chose who to save and who to condemn.
But god went ahead and created those he would condemn to eternal torture anyway, that is the purest of evil.
The condemned have no chance of salvation because they were condemned before creation.

I know why these people can't bring themselves to understand this, because it completely destroys their beliefs if they allow themselves to understand.

Look man, I'm just telling you there's salvation in Christ, and only in Christ.
And it's available to "WHOSOEVER COMES TO HIM."

You're as stubborn as Hell right now, but if God intends to save you, he'll save you, and you'll be glad he did.
bulproof
Posts: 25,303
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8/25/2014 12:30:38 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/25/2014 12:26:06 AM, sovereigngracereigns wrote:
At 8/25/2014 12:11:09 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 8/24/2014 11:42:27 PM, sovereigngracereigns wrote:
At 8/24/2014 11:23:51 PM, bulproof wrote:
At 8/24/2014 11:20:16 PM, sovereigngracereigns wrote:
At 8/24/2014 11:15:24 PM, dee-em wrote:
At 8/24/2014 11:03:28 PM, sovereigngracereigns wrote:
At 8/24/2014 10:57:24 PM, dee-em wrote:
At 8/24/2014 7:07:44 PM, sovereigngracereigns wrote:

You knew very well that God commanded you to repent and believe. You just refused to obey the command.

You just don't get it. God knows, and has always known, that bulproof would not be a believer. It was his destiny to be exactly the way he is. And yet your god is going to damn him to Hell anyway.

First of all, how do you know that bulproof is never going to become a believer?

I don't know. The point is that god does. Let's assume it (it's the safe bet).

As long as there's still breath in his lungs, there's still hope that God may open his eyes and save him.

It's not a question of hope if god is omniscient. He already knows one way or the other.


It never ceases to amaze me how people can't grasp such a simple concept.

YES, GOD knows who will be saved and who won't.

But WE DON'T.

So, FROM OUR PERSPECTIVE, there is still hope.

Don't you see that?

If not, then don't even bother to respond to this.

If you can't grasp such a simple concept as "God is omniscient, but we are not", then there is no point in continuing this with you.

Your claim is that god knows I'm going to hell, but I can do something that proves god wrong and go to heaven. Why do you call this dude a god?

I never said you can do something that proves God wrong and go to Heaven.

I'm saying if you go to Heaven, it's because God saved you.

Then this hope you speak of is a false hope. One's fate is decided before creation. So you can bow and scrape and worship till the cows come home but it won't make a scrap of difference if god hasn't already chosen you for heaven.

That's true.
But YOU DON'T KNOW if you're predestined to be saved or not.

YOU JUST NEED MERCY!
Stop making it so complicated!

Just leave the predestinating to GOD, alright?
And YOU worry about SEEKING MERCY.

Again,
Christ said:
"All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will by no means cast out." (John 6:37)

Don't worry about whether or not you were one of those who were given to Christ.
Just come to Christ and receive mercy.

It's got nothing to do with me, what I am doing and have done and will do is all god's will. He chose whether to save or condemn me before creation.

There is absolutely nothing I can do, I don't have a choice.
bulproof
Posts: 25,303
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8/25/2014 12:37:16 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/25/2014 12:30:16 AM, sovereigngracereigns wrote:
At 8/25/2014 12:24:06 AM, bulproof wrote:
Before creation god chose who to save and who to condemn.
But god went ahead and created those he would condemn to eternal torture anyway, that is the purest of evil.
The condemned have no chance of salvation because they were condemned before creation.

I know why these people can't bring themselves to understand this, because it completely destroys their beliefs if they allow themselves to understand.

Look man, I'm just telling you there's salvation in Christ, and only in Christ.
And it's available to "WHOSOEVER COMES TO HIM."

You're as stubborn as Hell right now, but if God intends to save you, he'll save you, and you'll be glad he did.

No you're wrong. God doesn't intend to save me, he made that choice before creation, I can't do anything about it.

What don't you get about that?