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Proof of God? It's all around you!

Installgentoo
Posts: 1,420
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8/23/2014 3:15:26 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
The probability of a stable, life-permitting universe coming into existence is so vanishingly small that it is impossible by any natural means.

Look out the window, atheists, and you will see the proof of God you so desperately and obviously seek.
Double_R
Posts: 4,886
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8/23/2014 3:53:20 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Please perform the following experiment: roll a pair of dice 15 times. Record the number each time. Then tell me the number.

Spoiler alert: Whatever number you give I will not believe you, because the odds of you rolling that number is 1 in 470,184,984,576. With those kind of odds I guess God must have done it.
Installgentoo
Posts: 1,420
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8/23/2014 4:01:34 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/23/2014 3:53:20 PM, Double_R wrote:
Please perform the following experiment: roll a pair of dice 15 times. Record the number each time. Then tell me the number.

Spoiler alert: Whatever number you give I will not believe you, because the odds of you rolling that number is 1 in 470,184,984,576. With those kind of odds I guess God must have done it.

An how about I gave you a dice, asked you to roll it a billion times over, then got you to record the times the dice rolled 11? Because that would be a better analogy for my claim.
POPOO5560
Posts: 2,487
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8/23/2014 4:25:32 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/23/2014 3:15:26 PM, Installgentoo wrote:
The probability of a stable, life-permitting universe coming into existence is so vanishingly small that it is impossible by any natural means.

Look out the window, atheists, and you will see the proof of God you so desperately and obviously seek.

Its human sickness to unable to see the closest things around ourselves...
Never fart near dog
TheGreatAndPowerful
Posts: 3,012
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8/23/2014 6:19:13 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/23/2014 3:15:26 PM, Installgentoo wrote:
The probability of a stable, life-permitting universe coming into existence is so vanishingly small that it is impossible by any natural means.

Look out the window, atheists, and you will see the proof of God you so desperately and obviously seek.

What's the probability of a god?
Beastt
Posts: 5,135
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8/23/2014 6:36:50 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/23/2014 3:15:26 PM, Installgentoo wrote:
The probability of a stable, life-permitting universe coming into existence is so vanishingly small that it is impossible by any natural means.

Look out the window, atheists, and you will see the proof of God you so desperately and obviously seek.

That's simply not true. The possibility of this stable, life-permitting universe coming into existence, is incredibly unlikely. The possibility of any slightly altered, yet similar stable, life-permitting universe is just as unlikely. There are literally hundreds of trillions of imaginable combinations, and only a very few which provide stability. But only those which are stable could possibly form. There are a few things you seriously need to think about, which it seems has not occurred to you.

This fine-tuning argument loves to pluck one force or property from the universe, and talk about the devastating consequences, were it different than it is. So why do you suppose it is so precisely as it is? You want to jump to the all-powerful, all-knowing, intervening hand of an unevidenced, contraindicated, supernatural hand. In all seriousness, that's pure silliness. Have you ever looked at a bowl of water? Do you notice spikes and valleys across the surface of the water? Or does it remain amazingly flat, aside from the curvature from surface tension at the edge?

Do you marvel at that and insist that it has to be an all powerful, supernatural, intervening hand which makes the surface of the water so amazingly flat and even? Or do you understand that because gravity exerts an even force, it would require a non-existent force within the water to create a ridge or depression?

The universe is perfectly (or near perfectly) balanced, because it coalesced as a unit. If you assume that matter poofed into existence, and then something sprinkled in some energy, then added the strong force, added a pinch of weak force... of course you're going to be stymied. When you have multiple properties and multiple forces all coalescing into formation at the same time, they begin to interact from the very first moment. And because they are interacting, they must balance against each other. Nothing can become other than how it is because it would create an imbalance, and THAT would require some outside acting force. The fact that the universe is balanced so well, indicates that no outside intervening force acted upon it. It's just like the surface of the water sitting in that bowl... when we see ripples (tiny crests and valleys) THEN we know it is being acted upon by an outside force. As long as is sitting perfectly flat "stable" - in absolute equilibrium, we can see that no outside force is acting upon it.

You're making the right observation, and drawing the exact opposite conclusion.
"If we believe absurdities we shall commit atrocities." -- Voltaire
Beastt
Posts: 5,135
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8/23/2014 7:04:01 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/23/2014 4:01:34 PM, Installgentoo wrote:
At 8/23/2014 3:53:20 PM, Double_R wrote:
Please perform the following experiment: roll a pair of dice 15 times. Record the number each time. Then tell me the number.

Spoiler alert: Whatever number you give I will not believe you, because the odds of you rolling that number is 1 in 470,184,984,576. With those kind of odds I guess God must have done it.

An how about I gave you a dice, asked you to roll it a billion times over, then got you to record the times the dice rolled 11? Because that would be a better analogy for my claim.

Here's the problem. Your dice are not connected. The various forces and properties of the universe didn't each form in isolation. They formed together... connected. So as each one formed, it acted against all of the rest, and all of the rest, acted upon it. If you connect your dice so that as each one moves during the roll, it applies a force against all of the rest, and all of the rest apply a force equally back against it, all of the die would produce the same number, each and every time. You now have a possibility of six different outcomes. All ones, all twos, all threes, and so on. This is how one has to understand the formation of the universe - with all of the properties and forces interacting, even as it formed. And once you grasp that, you realize that only an outside force - not interconnected to the universe, but acting upon it, could have possibly produced an unstable, unequal, unbalanced universe.

You're looking at a soap bubble and proclaiming that because it is so perfectly spherical, something had to have acted upon it to form that exact level of precision. The soap bubble is a perfect (or near perfect) sphere because it is not being acted upon to be any other shape. It is seeking the shape of greatest balance. You can sit in utter amazement that it is so smooth, and so spherical, or you can realize that because the pressure inside is perfectly balanced between the tension among the molecules in the film of soapy water and outside pressure, that a sphere is the only stable shape for the bubble to take. It is the shape which requires the absolute minimum of energy. For it to form a cube would require more force to produce more pressure to hold out the corners, and less pressure on the flattened sides. Everything must automatically react to the available energy. When there is no outside energy acting upon any construct, it will find the point of greatest stability - the configuration requiring the least energy. And that's what the universe did, because there was no outside force or energy acting upon it.

Because the universe formed as a unit - with all of the forces, components and factors all working together - it could only seek a stable outcome, precisely because there were no outside forces acting upon it, to cause it to seek an unstable configuration.

Take a hand full of rubble... garbage, bedding, dishes, a stack of magazines... whatever. Now throw it down in a heap. Are you astounded that it finds a point of equilibrium - of balance... stability? Why doesn't it tremble and shake in an unstable configuration? Now kick the heap of rubble. For the moment that you are acting against it (with your foot), it is unequal, imbalanced and unstable. But what happens a fraction of a second after your foot is no longer acting against it? It again seeks a stable, balanced and equal arrangement. Is that fascinating and amazing, or is it obvious? It's simply interacting with all of the components and forces involved, and seeking the configuration requiring the least energy.

It should be obvious - just as any "handful" of forces, properties and components "tossed" into a heap, will automatically seek a stable, balanced co-existence, because there is no outside force acting upon it to produce anything unstable - that the universe is equal, stable and balanced for precisely the same reason. A point of stability is that which utilizes the least energy. And you're looking at that and declaring that there had to be an immense outside energy to have created that result.

Your observation is that the least possible interaction is evidence, and proclaiming that it indicates an outside force. It indicates exactly the opposite - no outside force. There is no giant foot kicking the universe, causing it to be other than stable, so it seeks the state of least energy - stability.
"If we believe absurdities we shall commit atrocities." -- Voltaire
Installgentoo
Posts: 1,420
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8/23/2014 8:22:31 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/23/2014 6:19:13 PM, TheGreatAndPowerful wrote:
At 8/23/2014 3:15:26 PM, Installgentoo wrote:
The probability of a stable, life-permitting universe coming into existence is so vanishingly small that it is impossible by any natural means.

Look out the window, atheists, and you will see the proof of God you so desperately and obviously seek.

What's the probability of a god?

On the basis of the universe just happening to exist like a plane built from a tornado, almost 100%.
TheGreatAndPowerful
Posts: 3,012
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8/23/2014 8:53:44 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/23/2014 8:22:31 PM, Installgentoo wrote:
At 8/23/2014 6:19:13 PM, TheGreatAndPowerful wrote:
At 8/23/2014 3:15:26 PM, Installgentoo wrote:
The probability of a stable, life-permitting universe coming into existence is so vanishingly small that it is impossible by any natural means.

Look out the window, atheists, and you will see the proof of God you so desperately and obviously seek.

What's the probability of a god?

On the basis of the universe just happening to exist like a plane built from a tornado, almost 100%.

Our universe isn't like that, though.
Installgentoo
Posts: 1,420
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8/23/2014 9:53:28 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/23/2014 8:53:44 PM, TheGreatAndPowerful wrote:
At 8/23/2014 8:22:31 PM, Installgentoo wrote:
At 8/23/2014 6:19:13 PM, TheGreatAndPowerful wrote:
At 8/23/2014 3:15:26 PM, Installgentoo wrote:
The probability of a stable, life-permitting universe coming into existence is so vanishingly small that it is impossible by any natural means.

Look out the window, atheists, and you will see the proof of God you so desperately and obviously seek.

What's the probability of a god?

On the basis of the universe just happening to exist like a plane built from a tornado, almost 100%.

Our universe isn't like that, though.

Oh really, do you have any evidence for that?
Beastt
Posts: 5,135
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8/24/2014 1:40:26 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/23/2014 8:22:31 PM, Installgentoo wrote:
At 8/23/2014 6:19:13 PM, TheGreatAndPowerful wrote:
At 8/23/2014 3:15:26 PM, Installgentoo wrote:
The probability of a stable, life-permitting universe coming into existence is so vanishingly small that it is impossible by any natural means.

Look out the window, atheists, and you will see the proof of God you so desperately and obviously seek.

What's the probability of a god?

On the basis of the universe just happening to exist like a plane built from a tornado, almost 100%.

The odds of the universe just happening to exist are 1 in 2 from an external viewpoint, and 1 in 1 from an internal viewpoint.
"If we believe absurdities we shall commit atrocities." -- Voltaire
Beastt
Posts: 5,135
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8/24/2014 1:45:24 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/23/2014 9:53:28 PM, Installgentoo wrote:
At 8/23/2014 8:53:44 PM, TheGreatAndPowerful wrote:
At 8/23/2014 8:22:31 PM, Installgentoo wrote:
At 8/23/2014 6:19:13 PM, TheGreatAndPowerful wrote:
At 8/23/2014 3:15:26 PM, Installgentoo wrote:
The probability of a stable, life-permitting universe coming into existence is so vanishingly small that it is impossible by any natural means.

Look out the window, atheists, and you will see the proof of God you so desperately and obviously seek.

What's the probability of a god?

On the basis of the universe just happening to exist like a plane built from a tornado, almost 100%.

Our universe isn't like that, though.

Oh really, do you have any evidence for that?

Stability demonstrates a lack of outside intervention, not the presence of an outside intervention. Take a look at any non-living thing in your yard. Is it stable? If you look at a rock, a fence post, a mailbox, a lawn chair, the slab of concrete for a car port... whatever... you find that it's stable. It's not wobbling, moving, imploding, etc. In order to upset that stability, you, or the wind, or your neighbor, or a dog, a bird... some external force, needs to act upon it. The universe is stable because there is no outside force acting upon it. It formed as it is, with all of the forces and components acting upon each other, resulting in the only state and configuration possible - stability.
"If we believe absurdities we shall commit atrocities." -- Voltaire
TheGreatAndPowerful
Posts: 3,012
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8/24/2014 9:20:46 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/23/2014 9:53:28 PM, Installgentoo wrote:
At 8/23/2014 8:53:44 PM, TheGreatAndPowerful wrote:
At 8/23/2014 8:22:31 PM, Installgentoo wrote:
At 8/23/2014 6:19:13 PM, TheGreatAndPowerful wrote:
At 8/23/2014 3:15:26 PM, Installgentoo wrote:
The probability of a stable, life-permitting universe coming into existence is so vanishingly small that it is impossible by any natural means.

Look out the window, atheists, and you will see the proof of God you so desperately and obviously seek.

What's the probability of a god?

On the basis of the universe just happening to exist like a plane built from a tornado, almost 100%.

Our universe isn't like that, though.

Oh really, do you have any evidence for that?

Yeah. Tornadoes don't build planes, so obviously our universe is not geared to produce such occurrences.
bulproof
Posts: 25,250
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8/24/2014 9:57:37 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/24/2014 9:20:46 AM, TheGreatAndPowerful wrote:
At 8/23/2014 9:53:28 PM, Installgentoo wrote:
At 8/23/2014 8:53:44 PM, TheGreatAndPowerful wrote:
At 8/23/2014 8:22:31 PM, Installgentoo wrote:
At 8/23/2014 6:19:13 PM, TheGreatAndPowerful wrote:
At 8/23/2014 3:15:26 PM, Installgentoo wrote:
The probability of a stable, life-permitting universe coming into existence is so vanishingly small that it is impossible by any natural means.

Look out the window, atheists, and you will see the proof of God you so desperately and obviously seek.

What's the probability of a god?

On the basis of the universe just happening to exist like a plane built from a tornado, almost 100%.

Our universe isn't like that, though.

Oh really, do you have any evidence for that?

Yeah. Tornadoes don't build planes, so obviously our universe is not geared to produce such occurrences.

Planes are a lie told by satan and all you atheists believe it.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
Double_R
Posts: 4,886
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8/24/2014 10:05:33 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/23/2014 4:01:34 PM, Installgentoo wrote:
At 8/23/2014 3:53:20 PM, Double_R wrote:
Please perform the following experiment: roll a pair of dice 15 times. Record the number each time. Then tell me the number.

Spoiler alert: Whatever number you give I will not believe you, because the odds of you rolling that number is 1 in 470,184,984,576. With those kind of odds I guess God must have done it.

An how about I gave you a dice, asked you to roll it a billion times over, then got you to record the times the dice rolled 11? Because that would be a better analogy for my claim.

No that is factually not the case, and the fact that you think it is demonstrates why you find such a logically flawed argument to be convincing in the first place. The odds of the universe reaching this very point in this very state was indeed astronomically low, but it certainly was not mathematically or logically impossible. Rolling a dice and having it land on 11 is. Your entire argument is one big Texas sharpshooter fallacy.
Double_R
Posts: 4,886
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8/24/2014 10:11:42 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/23/2014 8:22:31 PM, Installgentoo wrote:
At 8/23/2014 6:19:13 PM, TheGreatAndPowerful wrote:
At 8/23/2014 3:15:26 PM, Installgentoo wrote:
The probability of a stable, life-permitting universe coming into existence is so vanishingly small that it is impossible by any natural means.

Look out the window, atheists, and you will see the proof of God you so desperately and obviously seek.

What's the probability of a god?

On the basis of the universe just happening to exist like a plane built from a tornado, almost 100%.

And what exactly does a non-designed universe look like?
Installgentoo
Posts: 1,420
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8/24/2014 11:32:21 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/24/2014 9:20:46 AM, TheGreatAndPowerful wrote:
At 8/23/2014 9:53:28 PM, Installgentoo wrote:
At 8/23/2014 8:53:44 PM, TheGreatAndPowerful wrote:
At 8/23/2014 8:22:31 PM, Installgentoo wrote:
At 8/23/2014 6:19:13 PM, TheGreatAndPowerful wrote:
At 8/23/2014 3:15:26 PM, Installgentoo wrote:
The probability of a stable, life-permitting universe coming into existence is so vanishingly small that it is impossible by any natural means.

Look out the window, atheists, and you will see the proof of God you so desperately and obviously seek.

What's the probability of a god?

On the basis of the universe just happening to exist like a plane built from a tornado, almost 100%.

Our universe isn't like that, though.

Oh really, do you have any evidence for that?

Yeah. Tornadoes don't build planes, so obviously our universe is not geared to produce such occurrences.

Yeah. Are you aware of what the word "analogy" means?
Installgentoo
Posts: 1,420
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8/24/2014 11:33:46 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/24/2014 9:57:37 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 8/24/2014 9:20:46 AM, TheGreatAndPowerful wrote:
At 8/23/2014 9:53:28 PM, Installgentoo wrote:
At 8/23/2014 8:53:44 PM, TheGreatAndPowerful wrote:
At 8/23/2014 8:22:31 PM, Installgentoo wrote:
At 8/23/2014 6:19:13 PM, TheGreatAndPowerful wrote:
At 8/23/2014 3:15:26 PM, Installgentoo wrote:
The probability of a stable, life-permitting universe coming into existence is so vanishingly small that it is impossible by any natural means.

Look out the window, atheists, and you will see the proof of God you so desperately and obviously seek.

What's the probability of a god?

On the basis of the universe just happening to exist like a plane built from a tornado, almost 100%.

Our universe isn't like that, though.

Oh really, do you have any evidence for that?

Yeah. Tornadoes don't build planes, so obviously our universe is not geared to produce such occurrences.

Planes are a lie told by satan and all you atheists believe it.

Have you considered killing yourself, Bulproof? Everyone here would be a little bit happier if you just sat down and slashed your wrists.
bulproof
Posts: 25,250
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8/24/2014 11:40:00 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/24/2014 11:33:46 AM, Installgentoo wrote:
At 8/24/2014 9:57:37 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 8/24/2014 9:20:46 AM, TheGreatAndPowerful wrote:
At 8/23/2014 9:53:28 PM, Installgentoo wrote:
At 8/23/2014 8:53:44 PM, TheGreatAndPowerful wrote:
At 8/23/2014 8:22:31 PM, Installgentoo wrote:
At 8/23/2014 6:19:13 PM, TheGreatAndPowerful wrote:
At 8/23/2014 3:15:26 PM, Installgentoo wrote:
The probability of a stable, life-permitting universe coming into existence is so vanishingly small that it is impossible by any natural means.

Look out the window, atheists, and you will see the proof of God you so desperately and obviously seek.

What's the probability of a god?

On the basis of the universe just happening to exist like a plane built from a tornado, almost 100%.

Our universe isn't like that, though.

Oh really, do you have any evidence for that?

Yeah. Tornadoes don't build planes, so obviously our universe is not geared to produce such occurrences.

Planes are a lie told by satan and all you atheists believe it.

Have you considered killing yourself, Bulproof? Everyone here would be a little bit happier if you just sat down and slashed your wrists.

Children should be seen and not heard. Don't you like your doctrine poor little mushroom?
I don't give a fuk.

Tell mummy to send you to your room.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
Installgentoo
Posts: 1,420
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8/24/2014 11:41:36 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/24/2014 11:40:00 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 8/24/2014 11:33:46 AM, Installgentoo wrote:
At 8/24/2014 9:57:37 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 8/24/2014 9:20:46 AM, TheGreatAndPowerful wrote:
At 8/23/2014 9:53:28 PM, Installgentoo wrote:
At 8/23/2014 8:53:44 PM, TheGreatAndPowerful wrote:
At 8/23/2014 8:22:31 PM, Installgentoo wrote:
At 8/23/2014 6:19:13 PM, TheGreatAndPowerful wrote:
At 8/23/2014 3:15:26 PM, Installgentoo wrote:
The probability of a stable, life-permitting universe coming into existence is so vanishingly small that it is impossible by any natural means.

Look out the window, atheists, and you will see the proof of God you so desperately and obviously seek.

What's the probability of a god?

On the basis of the universe just happening to exist like a plane built from a tornado, almost 100%.

Our universe isn't like that, though.

Oh really, do you have any evidence for that?

Yeah. Tornadoes don't build planes, so obviously our universe is not geared to produce such occurrences.

Planes are a lie told by satan and all you atheists believe it.

Have you considered killing yourself, Bulproof? Everyone here would be a little bit happier if you just sat down and slashed your wrists.

Children should be seen and not heard. Don't you like your doctrine poor little mushroom?
I don't give a fuk.

Tell mummy to send you to your room.

Kill yourself at once.
bulproof
Posts: 25,250
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8/24/2014 11:51:21 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/24/2014 11:41:36 AM, Installgentoo wrote:
At 8/24/2014 11:40:00 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 8/24/2014 11:33:46 AM, Installgentoo wrote:
At 8/24/2014 9:57:37 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 8/24/2014 9:20:46 AM, TheGreatAndPowerful wrote:
At 8/23/2014 9:53:28 PM, Installgentoo wrote:
At 8/23/2014 8:53:44 PM, TheGreatAndPowerful wrote:
At 8/23/2014 8:22:31 PM, Installgentoo wrote:
At 8/23/2014 6:19:13 PM, TheGreatAndPowerful wrote:
At 8/23/2014 3:15:26 PM, Installgentoo wrote:
The probability of a stable, life-permitting universe coming into existence is so vanishingly small that it is impossible by any natural means.

Look out the window, atheists, and you will see the proof of God you so desperately and obviously seek.

What's the probability of a god?

On the basis of the universe just happening to exist like a plane built from a tornado, almost 100%.

Our universe isn't like that, though.

Oh really, do you have any evidence for that?

Yeah. Tornadoes don't build planes, so obviously our universe is not geared to produce such occurrences.

Planes are a lie told by satan and all you atheists believe it.

Have you considered killing yourself, Bulproof? Everyone here would be a little bit happier if you just sat down and slashed your wrists.

Children should be seen and not heard. Don't you like your doctrine poor little mushroom?
I don't give a fuk.

Tell mummy to send you to your room.

Kill yourself at once.

Little, little boy if you don't want to get hurt then don't come and play with the big kids because to us you are just a nuisance (that means pest) now go back to the little kids sandpit and stop crying. I haven't even begun to TRY to hurt you.

Get mummy to blow your nose and wipe your tears and arse, I don't care about the order in which that is done, just go where you belong.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
TheGreatAndPowerful
Posts: 3,012
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8/25/2014 7:32:13 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/24/2014 11:32:21 AM, Installgentoo wrote:
At 8/24/2014 9:20:46 AM, TheGreatAndPowerful wrote:
At 8/23/2014 9:53:28 PM, Installgentoo wrote:
At 8/23/2014 8:53:44 PM, TheGreatAndPowerful wrote:
At 8/23/2014 8:22:31 PM, Installgentoo wrote:
At 8/23/2014 6:19:13 PM, TheGreatAndPowerful wrote:
At 8/23/2014 3:15:26 PM, Installgentoo wrote:
The probability of a stable, life-permitting universe coming into existence is so vanishingly small that it is impossible by any natural means.

Look out the window, atheists, and you will see the proof of God you so desperately and obviously seek.

What's the probability of a god?

On the basis of the universe just happening to exist like a plane built from a tornado, almost 100%.

Our universe isn't like that, though.

Oh really, do you have any evidence for that?

Yeah. Tornadoes don't build planes, so obviously our universe is not geared to produce such occurrences.

Yeah. Are you aware of what the word "analogy" means?

Yes, but every time I've heard this phrase raised, it has always been in a literal sense. Maybe you were unaware of its use?