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Jesus didn't exist and was unoriginal.

PinValentine
Posts: 16
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8/26/2014 5:09:13 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
I am at the contention that Jesus both did not exist, and he was unoriginal since gods, and religious figure alike have remarkable similarities to Jesus though some were thousands of years before Jesus was to have even been born.
"I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours" - Stephen Roberts
neutral
Posts: 4,478
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8/26/2014 5:18:39 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/26/2014 5:09:13 AM, PinValentine wrote:
I am at the contention that Jesus both did not exist, and he was unoriginal since gods, and religious figure alike have remarkable similarities to Jesus though some were thousands of years before Jesus was to have even been born.

Well go ahead and prove the Apostles stole all that, launched a massive conspiracy, that fooled contemporary Jews and Romans, and has littered the historical record with evidence of it's authenticity, but never once produces a reference to anything but Jewish religious traditions.

Conspiracy theory. That's what you got.
dee-em
Posts: 6,481
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8/26/2014 5:18:46 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/26/2014 5:09:13 AM, PinValentine wrote:
I am at the contention that Jesus both did not exist, and he was unoriginal since gods, and religious figure alike have remarkable similarities to Jesus though some were thousands of years before Jesus was to have even been born.

There's a thread titled "Price and the Christ Myth" just below.
You could post there.
PinValentine
Posts: 16
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8/26/2014 5:24:58 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
Felt like posting here.
"I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours" - Stephen Roberts
neutral
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8/26/2014 5:27:07 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/26/2014 5:24:58 AM, PinValentine wrote:
Felt like posting here.

With nothing but an unsupported accusation, thanks?

You know atheism was founded by PT Barnum ... Seriously! I don't need actual proof either.
PinValentine
Posts: 16
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8/26/2014 5:50:48 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/26/2014 5:18:39 AM, neutral wrote:
At 8/26/2014 5:09:13 AM, PinValentine wrote:
I am at the contention that Jesus both did not exist, and he was unoriginal since gods, and religious figure alike have remarkable similarities to Jesus though some were thousands of years before Jesus was to have even been born.

Well go ahead and prove the Apostles stole all that, launched a massive conspiracy, that fooled contemporary Jews and Romans, and has littered the historical record with evidence of it's authenticity, but never once produces a reference to anything but Jewish religious traditions.

Conspiracy theory. That's what you got.

Start with Horus the Egyptian Sky god. Thousands of years before Christ and so many similarities that you would have to blind to historical fact to deny it. He rose from the dead after three days, he performed miscalls, he healed people, His resurrection was witnessed by three women, he was conceived by a virgin, he was a god's son, his mother was meri, or mary, His foster father was Jo-Seph, or Joseph, He had is birth announced to his mother by an angel, His birthday is on Christmas, Shepherds witnessed his birth, He was baptized at 30, He is resisted by Satan, He successfully resists temptation, He had 12 disciples, He walked on water, He gave sight to the blind, He raised a man from the dead, He was crucified, He was crucified next to two thieves, He was called a Shepard, the lamb of god, the bread of life, the son of man, and the word.

Am I talking about Horus, or Jesus? They both are all those things. I skipped a lot too. I'm sure you have google. I'll give sources at your request.
"I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours" - Stephen Roberts
Kerfluffer
Posts: 123
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8/26/2014 6:43:57 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
Start with Horus the Egyptian Sky god.

YAWN. Stopped reading there. Most of those similarities are either completely fabricated or exaggerated. Look up the real facts before you just blindly accept whatever atheist propaganda sites tell you. For a person who prides himself in being the advocate of truth and will not believe anything without substantial evidence, you sure are easy to please when it comes to discrediting the Bible.

You can do way better than that.
TheMatt
Posts: 52
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8/26/2014 2:15:58 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
There are no parallels between Jesus and Pagan myths. This was refuted 100 years ago by scholars and historians. The only people that push this are conspiracy theorists on the internet.
Fatihah
Posts: 7,757
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8/26/2014 2:32:50 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/26/2014 5:09:13 AM, PinValentine wrote:
I am at the contention that Jesus both did not exist, and he was unoriginal since gods, and religious figure alike have remarkable similarities to Jesus though some were thousands of years before Jesus was to have even been born.

Response: Similarity does not mean non-existent, though I agree that many of the stories of fictional gods before Jesus are actually attributed to the life of Jesus as well. However, Jesus did exist and was a true prophet.
12_13
Posts: 1,365
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8/26/2014 2:32:50 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/26/2014 5:09:13 AM, PinValentine wrote:
I am at the contention that Jesus both did not exist, and he was unoriginal since gods, and religious figure alike have remarkable similarities to Jesus though some were thousands of years before Jesus was to have even been born.

Ok, from whom did Jesus steal his teachings?
Beastt
Posts: 5,135
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8/26/2014 3:38:24 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/26/2014 6:43:57 AM, Kerfluffer wrote:
Start with Horus the Egyptian Sky god.

YAWN. Stopped reading there. Most of those similarities are either completely fabricated or exaggerated. Look up the real facts before you just blindly accept whatever atheist propaganda sites tell you. For a person who prides himself in being the advocate of truth and will not believe anything without substantial evidence, you sure are easy to please when it comes to discrediting the Bible.

You can do way better than that.

Of course, that's what Christians are told, and what they wish to believe. And while there are numerous parallels between Jesus and Horus, Jesus and Mithra, and some of the hero fiction of the 1st century and Jesus; the point to remember is that there isn't just one set of stories in regard to Horus. There isn't just one set of stories in regard to Mithra, and there isn't just one set of stories in regard to Jesus - though the Council of Nicaea did what they could to try to bury other versions of Jesus. Try as they might, we still know about the warrior Jesus of the Essenes, the ascetic Jesus, the Gnostic Jesus, the pedophile Jesus of the Carpocratians, and the docetic Jesus. When one begins to group all of the different Horus tales, all of the Mithra tales, and all of the various Jesus tales, indeed there are a great number of parallels. The problem is simply that most Christians are a bit like baby birds and simply accept whatever is stuffed down their throats and instantly believe they have the one and only Jesus story. Few show any motivation to actually do any real research. But when research is actually performed, we find some rather compelling parallels.

Religious Tolerance is a site long admired and trusted for it's neutral stance. You'll see they're very careful with their wording stemming from the desire to protect and maintain that reputation. However, we can still see a great many parallels. Check the table on the bottom half of the page.
http://www.religioustolerance.org...
"If we believe absurdities we shall commit atrocities." -- Voltaire
The_Immortal_Emris
Posts: 474
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8/26/2014 3:48:17 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/26/2014 3:38:24 PM, Beastt wrote:
At 8/26/2014 6:43:57 AM, Kerfluffer wrote:
Start with Horus the Egyptian Sky god.

YAWN. Stopped reading there. Most of those similarities are either completely fabricated or exaggerated. Look up the real facts before you just blindly accept whatever atheist propaganda sites tell you. For a person who prides himself in being the advocate of truth and will not believe anything without substantial evidence, you sure are easy to please when it comes to discrediting the Bible.

You can do way better than that.

Of course, that's what Christians are told, and what they wish to believe. And while there are numerous parallels between Jesus and Horus, Jesus and Mithra, and some of the hero fiction of the 1st century and Jesus; the point to remember is that there isn't just one set of stories in regard to Horus. There isn't just one set of stories in regard to Mithra, and there isn't just one set of stories in regard to Jesus - though the Council of Nicaea did what they could to try to bury other versions of Jesus. Try as they might, we still know about the warrior Jesus of the Essenes, the ascetic Jesus, the Gnostic Jesus, the pedophile Jesus of the Carpocratians, and the docetic Jesus. When one begins to group all of the different Horus tales, all of the Mithra tales, and all of the various Jesus tales, indeed there are a great number of parallels. The problem is simply that most Christians are a bit like baby birds and simply accept whatever is stuffed down their throats and instantly believe they have the one and only Jesus story. Few show any motivation to actually do any real research. But when research is actually performed, we find some rather compelling parallels.

Religious Tolerance is a site long admired and trusted for it's neutral stance. You'll see they're very careful with their wording stemming from the desire to protect and maintain that reputation. However, we can still see a great many parallels. Check the table on the bottom half of the page.
http://www.religioustolerance.org...

/thread.

I think we're done here.
Kerfluffer
Posts: 123
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8/26/2014 5:07:30 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/26/2014 3:38:24 PM, Beastt wrote:
At 8/26/2014 6:43:57 AM, Kerfluffer wrote:
Start with Horus the Egyptian Sky god.

YAWN. Stopped reading there. Most of those similarities are either completely fabricated or exaggerated. Look up the real facts before you just blindly accept whatever atheist propaganda sites tell you. For a person who prides himself in being the advocate of truth and will not believe anything without substantial evidence, you sure are easy to please when it comes to discrediting the Bible.

You can do way better than that.

Of course, that's what Christians are told, and what they wish to believe. And while there are numerous parallels between Jesus and Horus, Jesus and Mithra, and some of the hero fiction of the 1st century and Jesus; the point to remember is that there isn't just one set of stories in regard to Horus. There isn't just one set of stories in regard to Mithra, and there isn't just one set of stories in regard to Jesus - though the Council of Nicaea did what they could to try to bury other versions of Jesus. Try as they might, we still know about the warrior Jesus of the Essenes, the ascetic Jesus, the Gnostic Jesus, the pedophile Jesus of the Carpocratians, and the docetic Jesus. When one begins to group all of the different Horus tales, all of the Mithra tales, and all of the various Jesus tales, indeed there are a great number of parallels. The problem is simply that most Christians are a bit like baby birds and simply accept whatever is stuffed down their throats and instantly believe they have the one and only Jesus story. Few show any motivation to actually do any real research. But when research is actually performed, we find some rather compelling parallels.

Religious Tolerance is a site long admired and trusted for it's neutral stance. You'll see they're very careful with their wording stemming from the desire to protect and maintain that reputation. However, we can still see a great many parallels. Check the table on the bottom half of the page.
http://www.religioustolerance.org...
I did look up the parallels before and did my own research in the past. Like I said, the parallels are either made up or very exaggerated and then referenced as supposed facts. And the same goes with Mithras. I'm not even going to bother finding links, but you can look that up. You don't even believe Jesus was a historical figure. You've already argued about this last part over and over with Anna, and I don't want to get sucked into a similarly long discussion.
Installgentoo
Posts: 1,420
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8/26/2014 5:15:53 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/26/2014 3:38:24 PM, Beastt wrote:
At 8/26/2014 6:43:57 AM, Kerfluffer wrote:
Start with Horus the Egyptian Sky god.

YAWN. Stopped reading there. Most of those similarities are either completely fabricated or exaggerated. Look up the real facts before you just blindly accept whatever atheist propaganda sites tell you. For a person who prides himself in being the advocate of truth and will not believe anything without substantial evidence, you sure are easy to please when it comes to discrediting the Bible.

You can do way better than that.

Of course, that's what Christians are told,

It's not what Christians are told. There isn't some giant underground bunker here Christians conspire to upbraid atheist nonsense about Jesus not existing.

and what they wish to believe.

You could say atheists also wish that Jesus doesn't exist. Stay off the coded accusations of bias.

And while there are numerous parallels between Jesus and Horus,

Name them.

Jesus and Mithra,

Name them

and some of the hero fiction of the 1st century and Jesus;

Right, sure, sounds credible after you've spectacularly failed to do any research on those whose lifes you say "parralel" Jesus' life.

the point to remember is that there isn't just one set of stories in regard to Horus.

Yes there are, he was only worshipped by one people, the Egyptians, so there's only one record.

There isn't just one set of stories in regard to Mithra,

...and none of them bear any major resemblance to Jesus.

and there isn't just one set of stories in regard to Jesus - though the Council of Nicaea did what they could to try to bury other versions of Jesus.

They're all similar accounts with added details. You can read them if you like on pdf.

Try as they might, we still know about the warrior Jesus of the Essenes, the ascetic Jesus, the Gnostic Jesus, the pedophile Jesus of the Carpocratians, and the docetic Jesus.

Just because there are some differing accounts of a person who became famed after the Roman Empire took Christianity to heart doesn't mean we can reject earlier accounts as original.

When one begins to group all of the different Horus tales, all of the Mithra tales, and all of the various Jesus tales, indeed there are a great number of parallels.

That's just using the Texas Sharpshooter fallacy to support your anti-religious bias against Jesus.

The problem is simply that most Christians are a bit like baby birds and simply accept whatever is stuffed down their throats and instantly believe they have the one and only Jesus story. Few show any motivation to actually do any real research. But when research is actually performed, we find some rather compelling parallels.

Surprisingly (not) all historical research says there was a historical Jesus, because of the huge amount of historical evidence that shows there was. Hundreds of the most reliable historians mention Jesus of Nazareth, with quite a few substantial accounts dated a very short period of time after Jesus died. Which, considering he was a minor religious preacher who left nothing tangible as evidence of him, is almost impossible to explain without there being a historical basis for his life.

Religious Tolerance is a site long admired and trusted for it's neutral stance. You'll see they're very careful with their wording stemming from the desire to protect and maintain that reputation. However, we can still see a great many parallels. Check the table on the bottom half of the page.
http://www.religioustolerance.org...

A lot of those links appear to have been dreamt up by you in your anti-religious bigotry.
YamaVonKarma
Posts: 7,570
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8/26/2014 5:18:07 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/26/2014 5:07:30 PM, Kerfluffer wrote:
At 8/26/2014 3:38:24 PM, Beastt wrote:
At 8/26/2014 6:43:57 AM, Kerfluffer wrote:
Start with Horus the Egyptian Sky god.

YAWN. Stopped reading there. Most of those similarities are either completely fabricated or exaggerated. Look up the real facts before you just blindly accept whatever atheist propaganda sites tell you. For a person who prides himself in being the advocate of truth and will not believe anything without substantial evidence, you sure are easy to please when it comes to discrediting the Bible.

You can do way better than that.

Of course, that's what Christians are told, and what they wish to believe. And while there are numerous parallels between Jesus and Horus, Jesus and Mithra, and some of the hero fiction of the 1st century and Jesus; the point to remember is that there isn't just one set of stories in regard to Horus. There isn't just one set of stories in regard to Mithra, and there isn't just one set of stories in regard to Jesus - though the Council of Nicaea did what they could to try to bury other versions of Jesus. Try as they might, we still know about the warrior Jesus of the Essenes, the ascetic Jesus, the Gnostic Jesus, the pedophile Jesus of the Carpocratians, and the docetic Jesus. When one begins to group all of the different Horus tales, all of the Mithra tales, and all of the various Jesus tales, indeed there are a great number of parallels. The problem is simply that most Christians are a bit like baby birds and simply accept whatever is stuffed down their throats and instantly believe they have the one and only Jesus story. Few show any motivation to actually do any real research. But when research is actually performed, we find some rather compelling parallels.

Religious Tolerance is a site long admired and trusted for it's neutral stance. You'll see they're very careful with their wording stemming from the desire to protect and maintain that reputation. However, we can still see a great many parallels. Check the table on the bottom half of the page.
http://www.religioustolerance.org...
I did look up the parallels before and did my own research in the past. Like I said, the parallels are either made up or very exaggerated and then referenced as supposed facts. And the same goes with Mithras. I'm not even going to bother finding links, but you can look that up. You don't even believe Jesus was a historical figure. You've already argued about this last part over and over with Anna, and I don't want to get sucked into a similarly long discussion.

If you see the bible as anything other than an Epic, you're reading the bible wrong. With all the translations and edits over the years, its a surprise anyone still believes it.
People who I've called as mafia DP1:
TUF, and YYW
Otokage
Posts: 2,352
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8/26/2014 6:15:07 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/26/2014 5:09:13 AM, PinValentine wrote:
I am at the contention that Jesus both did not exist, and he was unoriginal since gods, and religious figure alike have remarkable similarities to Jesus though some were thousands of years before Jesus was to have even been born.

I agree that Jesus did not exist. He seems as credible as Frodo Baggins and there's no reference of him outside of the Bible, a book that is, btw, as coherent as a Sailor Moon chapter.
TheMatt
Posts: 52
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8/26/2014 6:26:23 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/26/2014 3:38:24 PM, Beastt wrote:
At 8/26/2014 6:43:57 AM, Kerfluffer wrote:
Start with Horus the Egyptian Sky god.

YAWN. Stopped reading there. Most of those similarities are either completely fabricated or exaggerated. Look up the real facts before you just blindly accept whatever atheist propaganda sites tell you. For a person who prides himself in being the advocate of truth and will not believe anything without substantial evidence, you sure are easy to please when it comes to discrediting the Bible.

You can do way better than that.

Of course, that's what Christians are told, and what they wish to believe. And while there are numerous parallels between Jesus and Horus, Jesus and Mithra, and some of the hero fiction of the 1st century and Jesus; the point to remember is that there isn't just one set of stories in regard to Horus. There isn't just one set of stories in regard to Mithra, and there isn't just one set of stories in regard to Jesus - though the Council of Nicaea did what they could to try to bury other versions of Jesus. Try as they might, we still know about the warrior Jesus of the Essenes, the ascetic Jesus, the Gnostic Jesus, the pedophile Jesus of the Carpocratians, and the docetic Jesus. When one begins to group all of the different Horus tales, all of the Mithra tales, and all of the various Jesus tales, indeed there are a great number of parallels. The problem is simply that most Christians are a bit like baby birds and simply accept whatever is stuffed down their throats and instantly believe they have the one and only Jesus story. Few show any motivation to actually do any real research. But when research is actually performed, we find some rather compelling parallels.

Religious Tolerance is a site long admired and trusted for it's neutral stance. You'll see they're very careful with their wording stemming from the desire to protect and maintain that reputation. However, we can still see a great many parallels. Check the table on the bottom half of the page.
http://www.religioustolerance.org...

Citing psuedo-history from non-scholarly sources does not make your position credible
Installgentoo
Posts: 1,420
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8/26/2014 7:33:10 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/26/2014 2:15:58 PM, TheMatt wrote:
There are no parallels between Jesus and Pagan myths. This was refuted 100 years ago by scholars and historians. The only people that push this are conspiracy theorists on the internet.

It's good to know these idiots are limited to the internet as a source for their opinions, and none are in academia.
Installgentoo
Posts: 1,420
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8/26/2014 7:37:07 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/26/2014 6:15:07 PM, Otokage wrote:
At 8/26/2014 5:09:13 AM, PinValentine wrote:
I am at the contention that Jesus both did not exist, and he was unoriginal since gods, and religious figure alike have remarkable similarities to Jesus though some were thousands of years before Jesus was to have even been born.

and there's no reference of him outside of the Bible

Look up "Tacitus" "Josephus" "Pliny the Younger" etc

There are literally hundreds of sources that mention Jesus of Nazareth, all of whose writers are highly thought of by historians of antiquity.

As a former atheist it pains me that atheists are still embarrassing themselves by wheeling out the old ahistorical nonsense about Jesus of Nazareth not being real.

It's nearly as embarrassing as claiming the medieval Church "caused" the Dark Ages.
TheMatt
Posts: 52
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8/26/2014 7:40:37 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/26/2014 7:37:07 PM, Installgentoo wrote:
At 8/26/2014 6:15:07 PM, Otokage wrote:
At 8/26/2014 5:09:13 AM, PinValentine wrote:
I am at the contention that Jesus both did not exist, and he was unoriginal since gods, and religious figure alike have remarkable similarities to Jesus though some were thousands of years before Jesus was to have even been born.

and there's no reference of him outside of the Bible

Look up "Tacitus" "Josephus" "Pliny the Younger" etc

There are literally hundreds of sources that mention Jesus of Nazareth, all of whose writers are highly thought of by historians of antiquity.

As a former atheist it pains me that atheists are still embarrassing themselves by wheeling out the old ahistorical nonsense about Jesus of Nazareth not being real.

It's nearly as embarrassing as claiming the medieval Church "caused" the Dark Ages.

The Christ Myth Theory is to History, as Young-Earth Creationism is to Science.
annanicole
Posts: 19,788
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8/26/2014 8:05:39 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/26/2014 5:50:48 AM, PinValentine wrote:
At 8/26/2014 5:18:39 AM, neutral wrote:
At 8/26/2014 5:09:13 AM, PinValentine wrote:
I am at the contention that Jesus both did not exist, and he was unoriginal since gods, and religious figure alike have remarkable similarities to Jesus though some were thousands of years before Jesus was to have even been born.

Well go ahead and prove the Apostles stole all that, launched a massive conspiracy, that fooled contemporary Jews and Romans, and has littered the historical record with evidence of it's authenticity, but never once produces a reference to anything but Jewish religious traditions.

Conspiracy theory. That's what you got.

Start with Horus the Egyptian Sky god. Thousands of years before Christ and so many similarities that you would have to blind to historical fact to deny it. He rose from the dead after three days, he performed miscalls, he healed people, His resurrection was witnessed by three women, he was conceived by a virgin, he was a god's son, his mother was meri, or mary, His foster father was Jo-Seph, or Joseph, He had is birth announced to his mother by an angel, His birthday is on Christmas, Shepherds witnessed his birth, He was baptized at 30, He is resisted by Satan, He successfully resists temptation, He had 12 disciples, He walked on water, He gave sight to the blind, He raised a man from the dead, He was crucified, He was crucified next to two thieves, He was called a Shepard, the lamb of god, the bread of life, the son of man, and the word.

Am I talking about Horus, or Jesus? They both are all those things. I skipped a lot too. I'm sure you have google. I'll give sources at your request.

Then PLEASE give them - and by that, I mean good ones. I do not mean a bunch of stuff that someone just made up.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
Installgentoo
Posts: 1,420
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8/26/2014 8:19:02 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/26/2014 5:18:07 PM, YamaVonKarma wrote:
At 8/26/2014 5:07:30 PM, Kerfluffer wrote:
At 8/26/2014 3:38:24 PM, Beastt wrote:
At 8/26/2014 6:43:57 AM, Kerfluffer wrote:
Start with Horus the Egyptian Sky god.

YAWN. Stopped reading there. Most of those similarities are either completely fabricated or exaggerated. Look up the real facts before you just blindly accept whatever atheist propaganda sites tell you. For a person who prides himself in being the advocate of truth and will not believe anything without substantial evidence, you sure are easy to please when it comes to discrediting the Bible.

You can do way better than that.

Of course, that's what Christians are told, and what they wish to believe. And while there are numerous parallels between Jesus and Horus, Jesus and Mithra, and some of the hero fiction of the 1st century and Jesus; the point to remember is that there isn't just one set of stories in regard to Horus. There isn't just one set of stories in regard to Mithra, and there isn't just one set of stories in regard to Jesus - though the Council of Nicaea did what they could to try to bury other versions of Jesus. Try as they might, we still know about the warrior Jesus of the Essenes, the ascetic Jesus, the Gnostic Jesus, the pedophile Jesus of the Carpocratians, and the docetic Jesus. When one begins to group all of the different Horus tales, all of the Mithra tales, and all of the various Jesus tales, indeed there are a great number of parallels. The problem is simply that most Christians are a bit like baby birds and simply accept whatever is stuffed down their throats and instantly believe they have the one and only Jesus story. Few show any motivation to actually do any real research. But when research is actually performed, we find some rather compelling parallels.

Religious Tolerance is a site long admired and trusted for it's neutral stance. You'll see they're very careful with their wording stemming from the desire to protect and maintain that reputation. However, we can still see a great many parallels. Check the table on the bottom half of the page.
http://www.religioustolerance.org...
I did look up the parallels before and did my own research in the past. Like I said, the parallels are either made up or very exaggerated and then referenced as supposed facts. And the same goes with Mithras. I'm not even going to bother finding links, but you can look that up. You don't even believe Jesus was a historical figure. You've already argued about this last part over and over with Anna, and I don't want to get sucked into a similarly long discussion.

If you see the bible as anything other than an Epic, you're reading the bible wrong. With all the translations and edits over the years, its a surprise anyone still believes it.

The Bible is not the only reference to Jesus you can find if you want to find out about him.
YamaVonKarma
Posts: 7,570
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8/26/2014 8:20:47 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/26/2014 8:05:39 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 8/26/2014 5:50:48 AM, PinValentine wrote:
At 8/26/2014 5:18:39 AM, neutral wrote:
At 8/26/2014 5:09:13 AM, PinValentine wrote:
I am at the contention that Jesus both did not exist, and he was unoriginal since gods, and religious figure alike have remarkable similarities to Jesus though some were thousands of years before Jesus was to have even been born.

Well go ahead and prove the Apostles stole all that, launched a massive conspiracy, that fooled contemporary Jews and Romans, and has littered the historical record with evidence of it's authenticity, but never once produces a reference to anything but Jewish religious traditions.

Conspiracy theory. That's what you got.

Start with Horus the Egyptian Sky god. Thousands of years before Christ and so many similarities that you would have to blind to historical fact to deny it. He rose from the dead after three days, he performed miscalls, he healed people, His resurrection was witnessed by three women, he was conceived by a virgin, he was a god's son, his mother was meri, or mary, His foster father was Jo-Seph, or Joseph, He had is birth announced to his mother by an angel, His birthday is on Christmas, Shepherds witnessed his birth, He was baptized at 30, He is resisted by Satan, He successfully resists temptation, He had 12 disciples, He walked on water, He gave sight to the blind, He raised a man from the dead, He was crucified, He was crucified next to two thieves, He was called a Shepard, the lamb of god, the bread of life, the son of man, and the word.

Am I talking about Horus, or Jesus? They both are all those things. I skipped a lot too. I'm sure you have google. I'll give sources at your request.

Then PLEASE give them - and by that, I mean good ones. I do not mean a bunch of stuff that someone just made up.

The first parallel I can draw off hand, is the ankh. It is a cross with a hoop on the top. Said object was first seen long before the rise of Rome.
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Beastt
Posts: 5,135
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8/26/2014 8:24:50 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/26/2014 7:40:37 PM, TheMatt wrote:
At 8/26/2014 7:37:07 PM, Installgentoo wrote:
At 8/26/2014 6:15:07 PM, Otokage wrote:
At 8/26/2014 5:09:13 AM, PinValentine wrote:
I am at the contention that Jesus both did not exist, and he was unoriginal since gods, and religious figure alike have remarkable similarities to Jesus though some were thousands of years before Jesus was to have even been born.

and there's no reference of him outside of the Bible

Look up "Tacitus" "Josephus" "Pliny the Younger" etc

There are literally hundreds of sources that mention Jesus of Nazareth, all of whose writers are highly thought of by historians of antiquity.

As a former atheist it pains me that atheists are still embarrassing themselves by wheeling out the old ahistorical nonsense about Jesus of Nazareth not being real.

It's nearly as embarrassing as claiming the medieval Church "caused" the Dark Ages.

The Christ Myth Theory is to History, as Young-Earth Creationism is to Science.

That's very easy to say, and impossible to support. I'm not sure why this needs to be said so often, but the bottom line here isn't how many people believe Jesus existed, or how many historians and scholars you can stack up on one side or the other. You should introduce yourself to behavioral economics, paying special attention to the power of defaults over our choices. The fact remains that most of these historians and scholars are themselves, Christians, and therefore, unable to voice a position without a severe bias. But that's okay too, because no scholar or historian can credibly speak from some form of innate magical authority as so many Christians tend to imply. The bottom line in every case, is the evidence. And when it comes to Jesus, the evidence simply isn't there.

And if you'd like to continue insisting it's some kind of crack-pot theory, then I'm afraid I'm going to have to insist that you pop up with some form of - as yet un-introduced - new evidence, or you're simply blowing an irrational opinion out of your methane port.

Why don't you list all of the confirmed ancient Jewish writings showing that any ancient Jews knew anything about Jesus. Show us that Frank Zindler was failing in his research for his book "The Jesus the Jews Never Knew". Then you might have a point. Show us that Earl Doherty was clueless when he wrote "The Jesus Puzzle", and "Jesus: Neither God nor Man" and that D. M. Murdock was all part of some huge, yet obscure conspiracy when she wrote "The Christ Conspiracy", "Suns of God", and "Who was Jesus?". Maybe you'll even want to completely discredit, (through evidence, rather than unqualified, inaccurate and ignorant criticism), David Fitzgerald and the work he applied to his book "Nailed: Ten Christian Myths That Show Jesus Never Existed At All".

Of course there are many other well-researched works showing exactly the same thing, but even if you were to do no more than that, then you'd have a platform from which to speak, and you would have managed what Bart D Ehrman couldn't do in his book "Did Jesus Exist?". As it stands, you're slapping at invisible flies and telling us you've defeated a flock of pterodactyls. You've offered us absolutely nothing but tradition and the stagnant bias behind it, yet you suggest you've defeated these authors, historians, researchers, linguists, geologists and neurophysiologists, with nothing more than an opinion given to you through your set of irrational beliefs which offer less than a whiff or hint of credibility.

Tell us what you know about Philo of Alexandria. Apply a bit of textual criticism through the tent-pole of Jesus historians - the entry by Tacitus. One has to wonder at the ignorance and bias represented in analyzing the wording yet suggesting that it's anything other than the common Christian tradition of the day. It seems you have nothing to offer but a puffed up chest, flapping lips and an empty box.
"If we believe absurdities we shall commit atrocities." -- Voltaire
annanicole
Posts: 19,788
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8/26/2014 8:32:52 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/26/2014 8:20:47 PM, YamaVonKarma wrote:
At 8/26/2014 8:05:39 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 8/26/2014 5:50:48 AM, PinValentine wrote:
At 8/26/2014 5:18:39 AM, neutral wrote:
At 8/26/2014 5:09:13 AM, PinValentine wrote:
I am at the contention that Jesus both did not exist, and he was unoriginal since gods, and religious figure alike have remarkable similarities to Jesus though some were thousands of years before Jesus was to have even been born.

Well go ahead and prove the Apostles stole all that, launched a massive conspiracy, that fooled contemporary Jews and Romans, and has littered the historical record with evidence of it's authenticity, but never once produces a reference to anything but Jewish religious traditions.

Conspiracy theory. That's what you got.

Start with Horus the Egyptian Sky god. Thousands of years before Christ and so many similarities that you would have to blind to historical fact to deny it. He rose from the dead after three days, he performed miscalls, he healed people, His resurrection was witnessed by three women, he was conceived by a virgin, he was a god's son, his mother was meri, or mary, His foster father was Jo-Seph, or Joseph, He had is birth announced to his mother by an angel, His birthday is on Christmas, Shepherds witnessed his birth, He was baptized at 30, He is resisted by Satan, He successfully resists temptation, He had 12 disciples, He walked on water, He gave sight to the blind, He raised a man from the dead, He was crucified, He was crucified next to two thieves, He was called a Shepard, the lamb of god, the bread of life, the son of man, and the word.

Am I talking about Horus, or Jesus? They both are all those things. I skipped a lot too. I'm sure you have google. I'll give sources at your request.

Then PLEASE give them - and by that, I mean good ones. I do not mean a bunch of stuff that someone just made up.

The first parallel I can draw off hand, is the ankh. It is a cross with a hoop on the top. Said object was first seen long before the rise of Rome.

.... and? A "cross" - or some form of it - was very common. I'm not so sure about the hoop business.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
Beastt
Posts: 5,135
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8/26/2014 8:34:19 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/26/2014 8:19:02 PM, Installgentoo wrote:
At 8/26/2014 5:18:07 PM, YamaVonKarma wrote:
At 8/26/2014 5:07:30 PM, Kerfluffer wrote:
At 8/26/2014 3:38:24 PM, Beastt wrote:
At 8/26/2014 6:43:57 AM, Kerfluffer wrote:
Start with Horus the Egyptian Sky god.

YAWN. Stopped reading there. Most of those similarities are either completely fabricated or exaggerated. Look up the real facts before you just blindly accept whatever atheist propaganda sites tell you. For a person who prides himself in being the advocate of truth and will not believe anything without substantial evidence, you sure are easy to please when it comes to discrediting the Bible.

You can do way better than that.

Of course, that's what Christians are told, and what they wish to believe. And while there are numerous parallels between Jesus and Horus, Jesus and Mithra, and some of the hero fiction of the 1st century and Jesus; the point to remember is that there isn't just one set of stories in regard to Horus. There isn't just one set of stories in regard to Mithra, and there isn't just one set of stories in regard to Jesus - though the Council of Nicaea did what they could to try to bury other versions of Jesus. Try as they might, we still know about the warrior Jesus of the Essenes, the ascetic Jesus, the Gnostic Jesus, the pedophile Jesus of the Carpocratians, and the docetic Jesus. When one begins to group all of the different Horus tales, all of the Mithra tales, and all of the various Jesus tales, indeed there are a great number of parallels. The problem is simply that most Christians are a bit like baby birds and simply accept whatever is stuffed down their throats and instantly believe they have the one and only Jesus story. Few show any motivation to actually do any real research. But when research is actually performed, we find some rather compelling parallels.

Religious Tolerance is a site long admired and trusted for it's neutral stance. You'll see they're very careful with their wording stemming from the desire to protect and maintain that reputation. However, we can still see a great many parallels. Check the table on the bottom half of the page.
http://www.religioustolerance.org...
I did look up the parallels before and did my own research in the past. Like I said, the parallels are either made up or very exaggerated and then referenced as supposed facts. And the same goes with Mithras. I'm not even going to bother finding links, but you can look that up. You don't even believe Jesus was a historical figure. You've already argued about this last part over and over with Anna, and I don't want to get sucked into a similarly long discussion.

If you see the bible as anything other than an Epic, you're reading the bible wrong. With all the translations and edits over the years, its a surprise anyone still believes it.

The Bible is not the only reference to Jesus you can find if you want to find out about him.

I'm quite aware of that. The question is not "Can we find stories about him?". The question is; "Are the stories true?". And when you've answered that question, you're left with a fictional character. Was Jesus a warrior? There are stories (popular in to the Essenes), of Jesus the fierce warrior. Did Jesus have a real body, did he consume real food? Not according to the docetic views and stories about him. Was he a gnostic? Many writings depict him as such. Perhaps he was a pedophile as characterized by the Carpocratian version of "The Gospel of Mark". Do you think he was all of those things? These are varied different stories about him, and one of the reasons it became so necessary for the Council of Nicaea to decide who and what Jesus was before they could take the next step in crafting orthodox Christianity. And they did this not according to the evidence, but by a simple vote. Had they voted Jesus to have been a mythical God, would you be happy to accept that? Of course, you probably would have grown up believing in some other God and you'd naturally laugh at anyone proclaiming Jesus to have been real. Perhaps we should look to the Book of Mormon which also speaks of Jesus - the Jesus who traveled to Missouri. Does that make it true? The more you look to religious books, the more ridiculous and outlandish the claims will be. Try looking to secular entries about Jesus, and you'll begin to gain a clarified view... and you'll find there is very little to see.

We can read about Satan outside of the Bible as well. That doesn't make him real.
"If we believe absurdities we shall commit atrocities." -- Voltaire
Beastt
Posts: 5,135
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8/26/2014 8:37:07 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/26/2014 5:07:30 PM, Kerfluffer wrote:
At 8/26/2014 3:38:24 PM, Beastt wrote:
At 8/26/2014 6:43:57 AM, Kerfluffer wrote:
Start with Horus the Egyptian Sky god.

YAWN. Stopped reading there. Most of those similarities are either completely fabricated or exaggerated. Look up the real facts before you just blindly accept whatever atheist propaganda sites tell you. For a person who prides himself in being the advocate of truth and will not believe anything without substantial evidence, you sure are easy to please when it comes to discrediting the Bible.

You can do way better than that.

Of course, that's what Christians are told, and what they wish to believe. And while there are numerous parallels between Jesus and Horus, Jesus and Mithra, and some of the hero fiction of the 1st century and Jesus; the point to remember is that there isn't just one set of stories in regard to Horus. There isn't just one set of stories in regard to Mithra, and there isn't just one set of stories in regard to Jesus - though the Council of Nicaea did what they could to try to bury other versions of Jesus. Try as they might, we still know about the warrior Jesus of the Essenes, the ascetic Jesus, the Gnostic Jesus, the pedophile Jesus of the Carpocratians, and the docetic Jesus. When one begins to group all of the different Horus tales, all of the Mithra tales, and all of the various Jesus tales, indeed there are a great number of parallels. The problem is simply that most Christians are a bit like baby birds and simply accept whatever is stuffed down their throats and instantly believe they have the one and only Jesus story. Few show any motivation to actually do any real research. But when research is actually performed, we find some rather compelling parallels.

Religious Tolerance is a site long admired and trusted for it's neutral stance. You'll see they're very careful with their wording stemming from the desire to protect and maintain that reputation. However, we can still see a great many parallels. Check the table on the bottom half of the page.
http://www.religioustolerance.org...
I did look up the parallels before and did my own research in the past.

Then as the table at ReligiousTolerance shows, you did a sub-standard job, and came to a poor conclusion. When facing a substantial collection of evidence to the contrary, you do yourself no favors by continuing to express as though that evidence didn't exist.
"If we believe absurdities we shall commit atrocities." -- Voltaire
TheMatt
Posts: 52
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8/26/2014 8:37:28 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
You came out of the woodwork to write this mess? Whether or not NT scholars and historians of classics are Christians or not is irrelevant to their reasons for believing he existed. Secular and religious scholars both agree that there was a historical Jesus. Just like Religious and Secular biologists agree that evolution is true. This may not be proof that their right, but it is proof that Experts have far better reasons and excellent evidence to support their case than crack-pot self-publishing authors like DM Murdock, Frank Zindler, and David Fitzgerald, who have no PhD's in NT studies or ancient History.

Mythicists, like young-earth creationists both deny the consensus of experts. They both claim that their view is supposedly "historical or scientific". If thats the case, then there really isn't a difference between the two.
TheMatt
Posts: 52
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8/26/2014 8:37:49 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
You came out of the woodwork to write this mess? Whether or not NT scholars and historians of classics are Christians or not is irrelevant to their reasons for believing he existed. Secular and religious scholars both agree that there was a historical Jesus. Just like Religious and Secular biologists agree that evolution is true. This may not be proof that their right, but it is proof that Experts have far better reasons and excellent evidence to support their case than crack-pot self-publishing authors like DM Murdock, Frank Zindler, and David Fitzgerald, who have no PhD's in NT studies or ancient History. Mythicists, like young-earth creationists both deny the consensus of experts. They both claim that their view is supposedly "historical or scientific". If thats the case, then there really isn't a difference between the two.
Installgentoo
Posts: 1,420
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8/26/2014 8:39:23 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/26/2014 8:34:19 PM, Beastt wrote:
At 8/26/2014 8:19:02 PM, Installgentoo wrote:
At 8/26/2014 5:18:07 PM, YamaVonKarma wrote:
At 8/26/2014 5:07:30 PM, Kerfluffer wrote:
At 8/26/2014 3:38:24 PM, Beastt wrote:
At 8/26/2014 6:43:57 AM, Kerfluffer wrote:
Start with Horus the Egyptian Sky god.

YAWN. Stopped reading there. Most of those similarities are either completely fabricated or exaggerated. Look up the real facts before you just blindly accept whatever atheist propaganda sites tell you. For a person who prides himself in being the advocate of truth and will not believe anything without substantial evidence, you sure are easy to please when it comes to discrediting the Bible.

You can do way better than that.

Of course, that's what Christians are told, and what they wish to believe. And while there are numerous parallels between Jesus and Horus, Jesus and Mithra, and some of the hero fiction of the 1st century and Jesus; the point to remember is that there isn't just one set of stories in regard to Horus. There isn't just one set of stories in regard to Mithra, and there isn't just one set of stories in regard to Jesus - though the Council of Nicaea did what they could to try to bury other versions of Jesus. Try as they might, we still know about the warrior Jesus of the Essenes, the ascetic Jesus, the Gnostic Jesus, the pedophile Jesus of the Carpocratians, and the docetic Jesus. When one begins to group all of the different Horus tales, all of the Mithra tales, and all of the various Jesus tales, indeed there are a great number of parallels. The problem is simply that most Christians are a bit like baby birds and simply accept whatever is stuffed down their throats and instantly believe they have the one and only Jesus story. Few show any motivation to actually do any real research. But when research is actually performed, we find some rather compelling parallels.

Religious Tolerance is a site long admired and trusted for it's neutral stance. You'll see they're very careful with their wording stemming from the desire to protect and maintain that reputation. However, we can still see a great many parallels. Check the table on the bottom half of the page.
http://www.religioustolerance.org...
I did look up the parallels before and did my own research in the past. Like I said, the parallels are either made up or very exaggerated and then referenced as supposed facts. And the same goes with Mithras. I'm not even going to bother finding links, but you can look that up. You don't even believe Jesus was a historical figure. You've already argued about this last part over and over with Anna, and I don't want to get sucked into a similarly long discussion.

If you see the bible as anything other than an Epic, you're reading the bible wrong. With all the translations and edits over the years, its a surprise anyone still believes it.

The Bible is not the only reference to Jesus you can find if you want to find out about him.

I'm quite aware of that. The question is not "Can we find stories about him?". The question is; "Are the stories true?". And when you've answered that question, you're left with a fictional character. Was Jesus a warrior? There are stories (popular in to the Essenes), of Jesus the fierce warrior. Did Jesus have a real body, did he consume real food? Not according to the docetic views and stories about him. Was he a gnostic? Many writings depict him as such. Perhaps he was a pedophile as characterized by the Carpocratian version of "The Gospel of Mark". Do you think he was all of those things? These are varied different stories about him, and one of the reasons it became so necessary for the Council of Nicaea to decide who and what Jesus was before they could take the next step in crafting orthodox Christianity. And they did this not according to the evidence, but by a simple vote. Had they voted Jesus to have been a mythical God, would you be happy to accept that? Of course, you probably would have grown up believing in some other God and you'd naturally laugh at anyone proclaiming Jesus to have been real. Perhaps we should look to the Book of Mormon which also speaks of Jesus - the Jesus who traveled to Missouri. Does that make it true? The more you look to religious books, the more ridiculous and outlandish the claims will be. Try looking to secular entries about Jesus, and you'll begin to gain a clarified view... and you'll find there is very little to see.

We can read about Satan outside of the Bible as well. That doesn't make him real.

Blah blah blah, more conspiracy theories from you.

Look at all the famous, well-regarded historians of antiquity, you can read about the Jesus who was considered a wise man and crucified. It's all there, just read it.

Are you upset by the idea that Christianity might be true?

I wouldn't get into personal biases and poisoning the well here, but since you've done that in the second half of your response (and indeed every response to your inane pseudo-historical babble) I'll ask this question.