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Abram/Ishmael

DPMartin
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8/26/2014 1:18:12 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
When Abram had Ishmael was that an act of faith, or the act of the lack of faith?

And why would the Lord care about Hagar and her son Ishmael?
annanicole
Posts: 19,787
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8/26/2014 1:31:09 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/26/2014 1:18:12 PM, DPMartin wrote:
When Abram had Ishmael was that an act of faith, or the act of the lack of faith?

Lack
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
Fatihah
Posts: 7,751
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8/26/2014 2:35:22 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/26/2014 1:18:12 PM, DPMartin wrote:
When Abram had Ishmael was that an act of faith, or the act of the lack of faith?

And why would the Lord care about Hagar and her son Ishmael?

Response: What reason is there for Allah (God) not care about Ishmael?
celestialtorahteacher
Posts: 1,369
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8/26/2014 4:00:22 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Why try to derive spiritual meaning from man-made myths? "Abram", BRHM in Hebrew is Brahma, the Hindu Vedic god that was captured as a "Hebrew" along with Sarasvati, Brahma's consort, captured as "Sarah". Since Hindu goddesses were named after rivers, the Sarasvati River giving rise to one of the world's first civilizations, with its main tributary river, the Ghaggar, this Hindu Vedic set was transferred to the Near East as "Abraham, Sarah, and Hagar." The chances of finding a set of three cognate words of gods in two different ethnic cultures is thousands to one against. Judaism borrowed the Hindu Vedic Brahma/Sarasvati gods to found Judaism.

You may wonder how on earth ancient Hebrews knew anything about Brahmanism. Well, the explanation is historical. The Hebrews existing in the 1st millennia B.C. were in the ancient frankensence, myrrh, spikenard, and other incenses and oils Brahmin merchant business empire where these expensive items were produced in India and sailed to Yemen, where the Hindus had established a cultural colony, the Kingdom of Sheba which was the 7th Realm of Shiva which is where the Hebrew word for the 7th Day is derived, "shabbat". From Sheba the trade routes went to Egypt and Canaan/Palestine. Judaism is a religion filled with captured pagan gods made to serve the Jewish cause.

So again, why waste time on trying to get meaning from a man-made myth? Abrahamic religions are toast now for anyone who studies real Near Eastern history without Abrahamic religious prejudice.

And poor Fatihah, our resident brainwashed Muhammadan, will believe that Abram must be true or all else falls in his Muhammadan clone script he substitutes for a brain.
DPMartin
Posts: 1,096
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8/26/2014 4:46:25 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/26/2014 1:31:09 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 8/26/2014 1:18:12 PM, DPMartin wrote:
When Abram had Ishmael was that an act of faith, or the act of the lack of faith?

Lack

How is that?
annanicole
Posts: 19,787
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8/26/2014 4:55:03 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/26/2014 4:46:25 PM, DPMartin wrote:
At 8/26/2014 1:31:09 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 8/26/2014 1:18:12 PM, DPMartin wrote:
When Abram had Ishmael was that an act of faith, or the act of the lack of faith?

Lack

How is that?

Because neither Abraham nor Sarah trust God to fulfill His own promise in His own way in His own time.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
DPMartin
Posts: 1,096
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8/26/2014 4:56:56 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/26/2014 2:35:22 PM, Fatihah wrote:
At 8/26/2014 1:18:12 PM, DPMartin wrote:
When Abram had Ishmael was that an act of faith, or the act of the lack of faith?

And why would the Lord care about Hagar and her son Ishmael?

Response: What reason is there for Allah (God) not care about Ishmael?

Well FYI, the OP is a question from the Torah. As in a Christian view. So if you are looking for a posting to go wacko on, you might fishing in the wrong pond.
DPMartin
Posts: 1,096
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8/26/2014 5:00:40 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/26/2014 4:55:03 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 8/26/2014 4:46:25 PM, DPMartin wrote:
At 8/26/2014 1:31:09 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 8/26/2014 1:18:12 PM, DPMartin wrote:
When Abram had Ishmael was that an act of faith, or the act of the lack of faith?

Lack

How is that?

Because neither Abraham nor Sarah trust God to fulfill His own promise in His own way in His own time.

But the Lord God didn"t say anything about whether Sarah was to bear a child or not, until after Ishmael was born. How can it be that Abram acted for the lack of faith?
DPMartin
Posts: 1,096
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8/26/2014 5:02:41 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/26/2014 4:00:22 PM, celestialtorahteacher wrote:
Why try to derive spiritual meaning from man-made myths? "Abram", BRHM in Hebrew is Brahma, the Hindu Vedic god that was captured as a "Hebrew" along with Sarasvati, Brahma's consort, captured as "Sarah". Since Hindu goddesses were named after rivers, the Sarasvati River giving rise to one of the world's first civilizations, with its main tributary river, the Ghaggar, this Hindu Vedic set was transferred to the Near East as "Abraham, Sarah, and Hagar." The chances of finding a set of three cognate words of gods in two different ethnic cultures is thousands to one against. Judaism borrowed the Hindu Vedic Brahma/Sarasvati gods to found Judaism.

You may wonder how on earth ancient Hebrews knew anything about Brahmanism. Well, the explanation is historical. The Hebrews existing in the 1st millennia B.C. were in the ancient frankensence, myrrh, spikenard, and other incenses and oils Brahmin merchant business empire where these expensive items were produced in India and sailed to Yemen, where the Hindus had established a cultural colony, the Kingdom of Sheba which was the 7th Realm of Shiva which is where the Hebrew word for the 7th Day is derived, "shabbat". From Sheba the trade routes went to Egypt and Canaan/Palestine. Judaism is a religion filled with captured pagan gods made to serve the Jewish cause.

So again, why waste time on trying to get meaning from a man-made myth? Abrahamic religions are toast now for anyone who studies real Near Eastern history without Abrahamic religious prejudice.

And poor Fatihah, our resident brainwashed Muhammadan, will believe that Abram must be true or all else falls in his Muhammadan clone script he substitutes for a brain.

I have no idea what this space cadet stuff is.
annanicole
Posts: 19,787
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8/26/2014 5:04:37 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/26/2014 5:00:40 PM, DPMartin wrote:
At 8/26/2014 4:55:03 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 8/26/2014 4:46:25 PM, DPMartin wrote:
At 8/26/2014 1:31:09 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 8/26/2014 1:18:12 PM, DPMartin wrote:
When Abram had Ishmael was that an act of faith, or the act of the lack of faith?

Lack

How is that?

Because neither Abraham nor Sarah trust God to fulfill His own promise in His own way in His own time.

But the Lord God didn"t say anything about whether Sarah was to bear a child or not, until after Ishmael was born. How can it be that Abram acted for the lack of faith?

Did not God reveal to Abraham by his seed all nations would be blessed prior to the birth of the wild seed, Ishmael?
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
Fatihah
Posts: 7,751
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8/26/2014 5:20:18 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/26/2014 4:56:56 PM, DPMartin wrote:
At 8/26/2014 2:35:22 PM, Fatihah wrote:
At 8/26/2014 1:18:12 PM, DPMartin wrote:
When Abram had Ishmael was that an act of faith, or the act of the lack of faith?

And why would the Lord care about Hagar and her son Ishmael?

Response: What reason is there for Allah (God) not care about Ishmael?

Well FYI, the OP is a question from the Torah. As in a Christian view. So if you are looking for a posting to go wacko on, you might fishing in the wrong pond.

Response: The Torah is a revelation believed by Muslims as well. Nonetheless, your response shows that you have no logical objection to the Islamic view, thus making my point. Thanks.
DPMartin
Posts: 1,096
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8/26/2014 5:25:55 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/26/2014 5:04:37 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 8/26/2014 5:00:40 PM, DPMartin wrote:
At 8/26/2014 4:55:03 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 8/26/2014 4:46:25 PM, DPMartin wrote:
At 8/26/2014 1:31:09 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 8/26/2014 1:18:12 PM, DPMartin wrote:
When Abram had Ishmael was that an act of faith, or the act of the lack of faith?

Lack

How is that?

Because neither Abraham nor Sarah trust God to fulfill His own promise in His own way in His own time.

But the Lord God didn"t say anything about whether Sarah was to bear a child or not, until after Ishmael was born. How can it be that Abram acted for the lack of faith?

Did not God reveal to Abraham by his seed all nations would be blessed prior to the birth of the wild seed, Ishmael?

That is so, but the Lord specified that Abram would have an heir of his own seed and didn"t mention anything in respect to children of Abram through Sarah until after Ishmael was born. And what the Lord said to Hagar when she was suffering the rejection and ran from the house of Abram has nothing to do with Abram"s faith.

What the Lord said to Hagar had everything to do with His Presence with Abram and the fulfillment of His Word according to what he did tell Abram in respect to father of nations.
annanicole
Posts: 19,787
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8/26/2014 5:34:41 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/26/2014 5:25:55 PM, DPMartin wrote:
At 8/26/2014 5:04:37 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 8/26/2014 5:00:40 PM, DPMartin wrote:
At 8/26/2014 4:55:03 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 8/26/2014 4:46:25 PM, DPMartin wrote:
At 8/26/2014 1:31:09 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 8/26/2014 1:18:12 PM, DPMartin wrote:
When Abram had Ishmael was that an act of faith, or the act of the lack of faith?

Lack

How is that?

Because neither Abraham nor Sarah trust God to fulfill His own promise in His own way in His own time.

But the Lord God didn"t say anything about whether Sarah was to bear a child or not, until after Ishmael was born. How can it be that Abram acted for the lack of faith?

Did not God reveal to Abraham by his seed all nations would be blessed prior to the birth of the wild seed, Ishmael?

That is so, but the Lord specified that Abram would have an heir of his own seed and didn"t mention anything in respect to children of Abram through Sarah until after Ishmael was born. And what the Lord said to Hagar when she was suffering the rejection and ran from the house of Abram has nothing to do with Abram"s faith.

So by your way of reckoning, the fact that Abram and Sara devised their own little scheme to just kinda help God out, a scheme which resulted in a child that was technically a bastard, is of but little concern.

If God say to a married, but childless, man, "Your children will do great things", it is implied that his wife will at some point give birth. Such a statement by God is not to be taken as a license to screw everything in sight in hopes of helping God out.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
DPMartin
Posts: 1,096
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8/26/2014 6:18:45 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/26/2014 5:34:41 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 8/26/2014 5:25:55 PM, DPMartin wrote:
At 8/26/2014 5:04:37 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 8/26/2014 5:00:40 PM, DPMartin wrote:
At 8/26/2014 4:55:03 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 8/26/2014 4:46:25 PM, DPMartin wrote:
At 8/26/2014 1:31:09 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 8/26/2014 1:18:12 PM, DPMartin wrote:
When Abram had Ishmael was that an act of faith, or the act of the lack of faith?

Lack

How is that?

Because neither Abraham nor Sarah trust God to fulfill His own promise in His own way in His own time.

But the Lord God didn"t say anything about whether Sarah was to bear a child or not, until after Ishmael was born. How can it be that Abram acted for the lack of faith?

Did not God reveal to Abraham by his seed all nations would be blessed prior to the birth of the wild seed, Ishmael?

That is so, but the Lord specified that Abram would have an heir of his own seed and didn"t mention anything in respect to children of Abram through Sarah until after Ishmael was born. And what the Lord said to Hagar when she was suffering the rejection and ran from the house of Abram has nothing to do with Abram"s faith.

So by your way of reckoning, the fact that Abram and Sara devised their own little scheme to just kinda help God out, a scheme which resulted in a child that was technically a bastard, is of but little concern.

If God say to a married, but childless, man, "Your children will do great things", it is implied that his wife will at some point give birth. Such a statement by God is not to be taken as a license to screw everything in sight in hopes of helping God out.

I"m sorry I do believe Sarah gave him Hagar to wife, are you that out of touch with what was of common practice, in those days? You talk about what you don"t have a clue about, its like you are pulling stuff out your back side, or something. If Sarah gave him to wife then it was legal and appropriate. If it was as you describe, then why would Abram confront the Lord his God about his need for a heir of his own flesh? He would simply do what ever he saw fit, but instead, he was content with God"s judgements.

No wonder the atheist here are so hostile and say the theist or religious here are idiots, they are correct.
annanicole
Posts: 19,787
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8/26/2014 6:32:50 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/26/2014 6:18:45 PM, DPMartin wrote:
At 8/26/2014 5:34:41 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 8/26/2014 5:25:55 PM, DPMartin wrote:
At 8/26/2014 5:04:37 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 8/26/2014 5:00:40 PM, DPMartin wrote:
At 8/26/2014 4:55:03 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 8/26/2014 4:46:25 PM, DPMartin wrote:
At 8/26/2014 1:31:09 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 8/26/2014 1:18:12 PM, DPMartin wrote:
When Abram had Ishmael was that an act of faith, or the act of the lack of faith?

Lack

How is that?

Because neither Abraham nor Sarah trust God to fulfill His own promise in His own way in His own time.

But the Lord God didn"t say anything about whether Sarah was to bear a child or not, until after Ishmael was born. How can it be that Abram acted for the lack of faith?

Did not God reveal to Abraham by his seed all nations would be blessed prior to the birth of the wild seed, Ishmael?

That is so, but the Lord specified that Abram would have an heir of his own seed and didn"t mention anything in respect to children of Abram through Sarah until after Ishmael was born. And what the Lord said to Hagar when she was suffering the rejection and ran from the house of Abram has nothing to do with Abram"s faith.

So by your way of reckoning, the fact that Abram and Sara devised their own little scheme to just kinda help God out, a scheme which resulted in a child that was technically a bastard, is of but little concern.

If God say to a married, but childless, man, "Your children will do great things", it is implied that his wife will at some point give birth. Such a statement by God is not to be taken as a license to screw everything in sight in hopes of helping God out.

I"m sorry I do believe Sarah gave him Hagar to wife, are you that out of touch with what was of common practice, in those days? You talk about what you don"t have a clue about, its like you are pulling stuff out your back side, or something. If Sarah gave him to wife then it was legal and appropriate. If it was as you describe, then why would Abram confront the Lord his God about his need for a heir of his own flesh? He would simply do what ever he saw fit, but instead, he was content with God"s judgements.

No wonder the atheist here are so hostile and say the theist or religious here are idiots, they are correct.

.... only when they converse with Islamics.

The fact is that both Abram and Sarah CONSPIRED. Their problem was not faith - but a lack of it. Ishmael was a born as a DIRECT result of the lack of faith of both Abram and Sarah. God already had a plan, and the both of them conspired and came up with a different plan, and the net result was the wild seed, the bastard child, Ishmael.

And 95% of the current problems in the Middle East can be traced right back to two people who conspired and schemed - and came up with a different plan. Had the simply left things in the hands of God, the world would be a better place.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
DPMartin
Posts: 1,096
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8/26/2014 8:04:18 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/26/2014 6:32:50 PM, annanicole wrote:
The fact is that both Abram and Sarah CONSPIRED. Their problem was not faith - but a lack of it. Ishmael was a born as a DIRECT result of the lack of faith of both Abram and Sarah. God already had a plan, and the both of them conspired and came up with a different plan, and the net result was the wild seed, the bastard child, Ishmael.

And 95% of the current problems in the Middle East can be traced right back to two people who conspired and schemed - and came up with a different plan. Had the simply left things in the hands of God, the world would be a better place.

It"s your idiotic preconceived notion, a SOP for most church goers, that says that horse dump you"re spewing, not the scriptures.

Since God had a plan, then why wasn"t Abraham made aware of details like the heir would be by Sarah, it was already known that Sarah couldn"t have a child. And the Lord didn"t address that issue before Ishmael was born, did He?

Oh yea, by the way, your moronic hatred towards anyone not like you, is showing.
annanicole
Posts: 19,787
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8/26/2014 8:12:22 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/26/2014 8:04:18 PM, DPMartin wrote:
At 8/26/2014 6:32:50 PM, annanicole wrote:
The fact is that both Abram and Sarah CONSPIRED. Their problem was not faith - but a lack of it. Ishmael was a born as a DIRECT result of the lack of faith of both Abram and Sarah. God already had a plan, and the both of them conspired and came up with a different plan, and the net result was the wild seed, the bastard child, Ishmael.

And 95% of the current problems in the Middle East can be traced right back to two people who conspired and schemed - and came up with a different plan. Had the simply left things in the hands of God, the world would be a better place.

It"s your idiotic preconceived notion, a SOP for most church goers, that says that horse dump you"re spewing, not the scriptures.

Since God had a plan, then why wasn"t Abraham made aware of details like the heir would be by Sarah, it was already known that Sarah couldn"t have a child. And the Lord didn"t address that issue before Ishmael was born, did He?

Oh, you think God should have said, "In thy seed shall all nation be blessed" - then went on to inform Abram of all the specifics? That way, Abram and Sarai wouldn't have fabricated their own scheme to help God out on the deal.

Your reply falls under its own weight. When God tells a childless, married man that "in thy seed all nations will be blessed" the presupposition should be that the wife will conceive, no matter what.

Oh yea, by the way, your moronic hatred towards anyone not like you, is showing.

It's not I who is defending the actions of Abraham and Sarah. The chosen seed was, unfortunately for you, to come from Abraham through his lawful wife, Sarah. God did not enlist their meddling in order to accomplish his purpose.

You take the promise of God to actually imply, "Go out and screw someone else. Help me out here. Your wife is too old, but you can fix this for me." And a faith is built upon that type of reasoning?
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
DPMartin
Posts: 1,096
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8/26/2014 8:29:01 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/26/2014 8:12:22 PM, annanicole wrote:
Your reply falls under its own weight. When God tells a childless, married man that "in thy seed all nations will be blessed" the presupposition should be that the wife will conceive, no matter what.

Again the "presupposition" as you put it, is on your part, and in your view, not in scripture.

God doesn"t imply, nor does He leave out by accident. God spoke all things into being He doesn"t make mistakes in what He says and doesn"t say. Abram didn"t attempt to even do this until the Lord told him he would have an heir of himself. Therefore he acted by believing God"s Word.

It certainly wasn"t pleasant, have a nice day.
annanicole
Posts: 19,787
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8/26/2014 8:37:08 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/26/2014 8:29:01 PM, DPMartin wrote:
At 8/26/2014 8:12:22 PM, annanicole wrote:
Your reply falls under its own weight. When God tells a childless, married man that "in thy seed all nations will be blessed" the presupposition should be that the wife will conceive, no matter what.


Again the "presupposition" as you put it, is on your part, and in your view, not in scripture.

God doesn"t imply, nor does He leave out by accident. God spoke all things into being He doesn"t make mistakes in what He says and doesn"t say. Abram didn"t attempt to even do this until the Lord told him he would have an heir of himself. Therefore he acted by believing God"s Word.

Oh, he acted by "believing God's word", alright. He just didn't hardly believe in God's ability to carry His word out by ordinary means, did he?

I'll pose the question another way: "Did Abraham and his wife take matters into their own hands and arrange 'conjugal visits' with a handmaiden in order to kinda help God be true to His word?"
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."