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Beware Christians

dee-em
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8/27/2014 5:43:15 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
Exodus 20
4 You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 6 but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments.


This reads to me that if your father or mother are non-Christians or unbelievers, then you are doomed no matter what you do. Not only that but so are your children and grandchildren. Doomed I tell you.

However, if one of your great-to-the-998-parents was pious and obedient, god will love you as he punishes you. That should be some consolation.

So Christians, take care. Work on your parents and grandparents. Keep the faith. Otherwise god will visit their sins onto you and your offspring (and that sounds perfectly fair and reasonable to me).

You have been warned.
bulproof
Posts: 25,308
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8/27/2014 10:23:28 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/27/2014 10:16:41 AM, popculturepooka wrote:
***fundamentalist reading alert***

If you are a believer it actually means that Miss Piggy and The Swedish Chef will be married in the garden of eden after the 33rd of the month.

It's really quite simple to understand.
popculturepooka
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8/27/2014 10:43:38 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/27/2014 10:25:14 AM, bulproof wrote:
Because as a believer you know very well that it never means what it says.

***fundamentalist reading alert***
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
bulproof
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8/27/2014 11:24:14 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/27/2014 10:25:14 AM, bulproof wrote:
Because as a believer you know very well that it never means what it says.
bulproof
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8/27/2014 11:27:29 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
Let's face it those words didn't mean what they mean now, generations of descendents in those days meant fairy queens and daffodils, we all get that.
hahahahahahahahahahahaha
ethang5
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8/27/2014 11:33:45 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/27/2014 10:43:38 AM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 8/27/2014 10:25:14 AM, bulproof wrote:
Because as a believer you know very well that it never means what it says.

***fundamentalist reading alert***

lol pcp, neither of hem got it.
bulproof
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8/27/2014 11:46:49 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/27/2014 11:33:45 AM, ethang5 wrote:
At 8/27/2014 10:43:38 AM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 8/27/2014 10:25:14 AM, bulproof wrote:
Because as a believer you know very well that it never means what it says.

***fundamentalist reading alert***

lol pcp, neither of hem got it.

No we thought HE meant fairies and toadstools when HE spoke about generations.
How could we be so stupid? Rhetorical!
popculturepooka
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8/27/2014 12:19:25 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/27/2014 11:33:45 AM, ethang5 wrote:
At 8/27/2014 10:43:38 AM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 8/27/2014 10:25:14 AM, bulproof wrote:
Because as a believer you know very well that it never means what it says.

***fundamentalist reading alert***

lol pcp, neither of hem got it.

Lol...I know.
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
neutral
Posts: 4,478
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8/27/2014 1:03:30 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/27/2014 5:43:15 AM, dee-em wrote:
Exodus 20
4 You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 6 but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments.


This reads to me that if your father or mother are non-Christians or unbelievers, then you are doomed no matter what you do. Not only that but so are your children and grandchildren. Doomed I tell you.

However, if one of your great-to-the-998-parents was pious and obedient, god will love you as he punishes you. That should be some consolation.

So Christians, take care. Work on your parents and grandparents. Keep the faith. Otherwise god will visit their sins onto you and your offspring (and that sounds perfectly fair and reasonable to me).

You have been warned.

Why are you quoting a single passage of Exodus rather than anything in the New Testament?

19 "Yet you say, "Why should the son not bear the guilt of the father?" Because the son has done what is lawful and right, and has kept all My statutes and observed them, he shall surely live. 20 The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself. Ezekiel 18:19-20

The rest of the Chapter gives ample further evidence.

I wonder if atheists are aware that the Old Testament is in the context of 'God's Chosen People'? That this was a small sect of people in a powerful world of big empire's that required God's protection and DISCIPLINE to maintain defense a harsh and cruel world to safeguard that message.

As that message is converted into a human wide ethic, much will changes as the 'defense' of Israel become less necessary to safeguarding that message. Its not longer a question of just protecting the Jews, as humans of honor who follow God are now found in every Nation on Earth. Which is favored now? The one that sets policies based on ethical constructs against that which is over ripe for power?

One of the curious rings you see in history is the power of ethic. Those Nations which align themselves with universal ethical principles generally prosper (Prussia) and when those same Nations disregard those ethics they decline (Germany). You can see the same thing in Chinese History, righteous Emperors lead to Chinese power, unethical Emperors lead to decline.

Or ... I suppose you could just ripe things out of context and apply literally absurd interpretations born of unfamiliarity and ignorance, whose sole contribution seems to be to deliberately get it wrong in the first place in the worst possible way imaginable.
bulproof
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8/27/2014 1:28:44 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/27/2014 1:03:30 PM, neutral wrote:
At 8/27/2014 5:43:15 AM, dee-em wrote:
Exodus 20
4 You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 6 but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments.


This reads to me that if your father or mother are non-Christians or unbelievers, then you are doomed no matter what you do. Not only that but so are your children and grandchildren. Doomed I tell you.

However, if one of your great-to-the-998-parents was pious and obedient, god will love you as he punishes you. That should be some consolation.

So Christians, take care. Work on your parents and grandparents. Keep the faith. Otherwise god will visit their sins onto you and your offspring (and that sounds perfectly fair and reasonable to me).

You have been warned.

Why are you quoting a single passage of Exodus rather than anything in the New Testament?

19 "Yet you say, "Why should the son not bear the guilt of the father?" Because the son has done what is lawful and right, and has kept all My statutes and observed them, he shall surely live. 20 The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself. Ezekiel 18:19-20

The rest of the Chapter gives ample further evidence.

I wonder if atheists are aware that the Old Testament is in the context of 'God's Chosen People'? That this was a small sect of people in a powerful world of big empire's that required God's protection and DISCIPLINE to maintain defense a harsh and cruel world to safeguard that message.

As that message is converted into a human wide ethic, much will changes as the 'defense' of Israel become less necessary to safeguarding that message. Its not longer a question of just protecting the Jews, as humans of honor who follow God are now found in every Nation on Earth. Which is favored now? The one that sets policies based on ethical constructs against that which is over ripe for power?

One of the curious rings you see in history is the power of ethic. Those Nations which align themselves with universal ethical principles generally prosper (Prussia) and when those same Nations disregard those ethics they decline (Germany). You can see the same thing in Chinese History, righteous Emperors lead to Chinese power, unethical Emperors lead to decline.

Or ... I suppose you could just ripe things out of context and apply literally absurd interpretations born of unfamiliarity and ignorance, whose sole contribution seems to be to deliberately get it wrong in the first place in the worst possible way imaginable.

Oh wait, let's make a heap of excuses and call it Apologetics. Yay christianity.
neutral
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8/27/2014 2:25:26 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/27/2014 1:28:44 PM, bulproof wrote:

Oh wait, let's make a heap of excuses and call it Apologetics. Yay christianity.

Lets be a totally uneducated troll and call it atheism. Yay atheism!!!!

ONE of these is true! (Its the later).
12_13
Posts: 1,365
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8/27/2014 2:27:53 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/27/2014 5:43:15 AM, dee-em wrote:
This reads to me that if your father or mother are non-Christians or unbelievers, then you are doomed no matter what you do. Not only that but so are your children and grandchildren. Doomed I tell you.

Unless I forgive by the right that Jesus gave?

Whoever's sins you forgive, they are forgiven them. Whoever's sins you retain, they have been retained."
John 20:23
debate_power
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8/27/2014 2:37:18 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/27/2014 5:43:15 AM, dee-em wrote:
Exodus 20
4 You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 6 but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments.


This reads to me that if your father or mother are non-Christians or unbelievers, then you are doomed no matter what you do. Not only that but so are your children and grandchildren. Doomed I tell you.

However, if one of your great-to-the-998-parents was pious and obedient, god will love you as he punishes you. That should be some consolation.

So Christians, take care. Work on your parents and grandparents. Keep the faith. Otherwise god will visit their sins onto you and your offspring (and that sounds perfectly fair and reasonable to me).

You have been warned.

Yeah, what this means is that, in accordance with the rules set forth in the Bible, you will not be let into heaven, so no eternal utopia for you. Easy to understand.
You can call me Mark if you like.
dee-em
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8/27/2014 8:24:02 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/27/2014 1:03:30 PM, neutral wrote:

Why are you quoting a single passage of Exodus rather than anything in the New Testament?

Why is Exodus in the Bible?

19 "Yet you say, "Why should the son not bear the guilt of the father?" Because the son has done what is lawful and right, and has kept all My statutes and observed them, he shall surely live. 20 The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself. Ezekiel 18:19-20

The rest of the Chapter gives ample further evidence.

I wonder if atheists are aware that the Old Testament is in the context of 'God's Chosen People'? That this was a small sect of people in a powerful world of big empire's that required God's protection and DISCIPLINE to maintain defense a harsh and cruel world to safeguard that message.

As that message is converted into a human wide ethic, much will changes as the 'defense' of Israel become less necessary to safeguarding that message. Its not longer a question of just protecting the Jews, as humans of honor who follow God are now found in every Nation on Earth. Which is favored now? The one that sets policies based on ethical constructs against that which is over ripe for power?

One of the curious rings you see in history is the power of ethic. Those Nations which align themselves with universal ethical principles generally prosper (Prussia) and when those same Nations disregard those ethics they decline (Germany). You can see the same thing in Chinese History, righteous Emperors lead to Chinese power, unethical Emperors lead to decline.

Or ... I suppose you could just ripe things out of context and apply literally absurd interpretations born of unfamiliarity and ignorance, whose sole contribution seems to be to deliberately get it wrong in the first place in the worst possible way imaginable.

Matthew 5
17 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished. 19 Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
dee-em
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8/27/2014 9:48:37 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/27/2014 2:37:18 PM, debate_power wrote:

Yeah, what this means is that, in accordance with the rules set forth in the Bible, you will not be let into heaven, so no eternal utopia for you. Easy to understand.

You miss the point. I am responsible for my own actions and I'll cop any punishment forthcoming (if I believed it for a millisecond).

I'm issuing a warning to Christians, in the public interest, to check their family trees carefully and take remedial action if they can because you will be judged, not just by your own actions, but by those of your immediate ancestors. Take heed.

--- End of public service announcement ---
dee-em
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8/27/2014 10:28:55 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/27/2014 2:27:53 PM, 12_13 wrote:

Whoever's sins you forgive, they are forgiven them. Whoever's sins you retain, they have been retained."
John 20:23

I forgive the sins of everyone who has ever lived, past and future. Now everyone will go to heaven, right?
neutral
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8/28/2014 1:03:47 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/27/2014 8:24:02 PM, dee-em wrote:
At 8/27/2014 1:03:30 PM, neutral wrote:

Why are you quoting a single passage of Exodus rather than anything in the New Testament?

Why is Exodus in the Bible?

19 "Yet you say, "Why should the son not bear the guilt of the father?" Because the son has done what is lawful and right, and has kept all My statutes and observed them, he shall surely live. 20 The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself. Ezekiel 18:19-20

The rest of the Chapter gives ample further evidence.

I wonder if atheists are aware that the Old Testament is in the context of 'God's Chosen People'? That this was a small sect of people in a powerful world of big empire's that required God's protection and DISCIPLINE to maintain defense a harsh and cruel world to safeguard that message.

As that message is converted into a human wide ethic, much will changes as the 'defense' of Israel become less necessary to safeguarding that message. Its not longer a question of just protecting the Jews, as humans of honor who follow God are now found in every Nation on Earth. Which is favored now? The one that sets policies based on ethical constructs against that which is over ripe for power?

One of the curious rings you see in history is the power of ethic. Those Nations which align themselves with universal ethical principles generally prosper (Prussia) and when those same Nations disregard those ethics they decline (Germany). You can see the same thing in Chinese History, righteous Emperors lead to Chinese power, unethical Emperors lead to decline.

Or ... I suppose you could just ripe things out of context and apply literally absurd interpretations born of unfamiliarity and ignorance, whose sole contribution seems to be to deliberately get it wrong in the first place in the worst possible way imaginable.

Matthew 5
17 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished. 19 Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.


Your question has already been answered atheist - go back and actually read, because your quote does not disagree with what I wrote - the quote you listed in OP is not a commandment of the law as listed in the OT.

Maybe you atheists should actually read the Bible and understand it before launching into horrible and deliberate misinterpretation that you subsequently support by using a proxy search to cherry pick points - it's called the Texas Sharpshooter Fallacy and this is precisely the behavior that religious people loath in atheism - ignorance coupled with Google and bolstered by a chip on their shoulder and the utter inability to actually listen to the people making the correction.

Deuteronomy? Perhaps you have heard of that. Chapter in the OT? Again, why are many ignorant atheists demanding their sheckled interpretations be treated as anything other than creative writing with a twist of malice?

Silliness itself.
dee-em
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8/28/2014 3:31:57 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/27/2014 1:03:30 PM, neutral wrote:

Okay, I'll address your points.

19 "Yet you say, "Why should the son not bear the guilt of the father?" Because the son has done what is lawful and right, and has kept all My statutes and observed them, he shall surely live. 20 The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself. Ezekiel 18:19-20

The rest of the Chapter gives ample further evidence.

The only evidence I see is that the Bible is contradictory. This happens all the time. Someone posts a quote from the Bible. Then someone else posts another quote which says the diametric opposite. They then think their job is done. It's like a game. The Bible is big enough and has enough support for almost any position imaginable that anyone can play. It's a joke and it's why atheists become exasperated with trying to discuss anything with Christians.

I reject that your Ezekiel quote trumps the one I gave. You need to address, if the Exodus text is the word of god, why it was written if it is simply to be ignored.

I wonder if atheists are aware that the Old Testament is in the context of 'God's Chosen People'? That this was a small sect of people in a powerful world of big empire's that required God's protection and DISCIPLINE to maintain defense a harsh and cruel world to safeguard that message.

Are you serious? An omnipotent god could not protect his chosen people other than by getting them to observe a temporary set of laws? Come on, you can do better apologetics than that!

As that message is converted into a human wide ethic, much will changes as the 'defense' of Israel become less necessary to safeguarding that message. Its not longer a question of just protecting the Jews, as humans of honor who follow God are now found in every Nation on Earth. Which is favored now? The one that sets policies based on ethical constructs against that which is over ripe for power?

This is why I posted the Matthew passage. It's straight out of the mouth of Jesus. Not one dot or iota is to change.

One of the curious rings you see in history is the power of ethic. Those Nations which align themselves with universal ethical principles generally prosper (Prussia) and when those same Nations disregard those ethics they decline (Germany). You can see the same thing in Chinese History, righteous Emperors lead to Chinese power, unethical Emperors lead to decline.

Irrelevant and probably unhistoric. The quality or otherwise of ethical systems used by various societies is not the issue under discussion.

Or ... I suppose you could just ripe things out of context and apply literally absurd interpretations born of unfamiliarity and ignorance, whose sole contribution seems to be to deliberately get it wrong in the first place in the worst possible way imaginable.

Nice diatribe but you haven't explained how my interpretation is absurd nor how I got it wrong. All you have done is to try to sweep it under the carpet by vague claims that the commandments relayed by Moses (allegedly) were only of a temporary nature like martial law when a nation's security is under threat. Yet Exodus 20 which I quoted is all about a jealous god and his need for exclusive worship. Ethical considerations which you waxed lyrical about don't come into it.

Are you saying that god's jealousy abated over the centuries and he no longer demands exclusive worship? Is that really your position?
Beastt
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8/28/2014 3:44:03 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/27/2014 10:16:41 AM, popculturepooka wrote:
***fundamentalist reading alert***

If you don't like what it says, then it's metaphorical.

If what it says is easily demonstrated to be wrong, then it's a parable.

If it supports what you personally believe - putting God on your team - then it's literal.

Christians squirm around attempting to make fun of people who read what the Bible actually says, point fingers and laugh. The Bible claims that anyone with faith who prays, will receive what they have prayed for. That's simply what it says. But everyone knows that doesn't happen... so it's metaphorical, it's figurative, it says anything but what that arrangement of words actually conveys.

This is a necessary dishonesty in holding to a belief in Christianity - if Christians were honest about what the Bible says, they'd have to admit that it's a miserable failure, and abandoned their belief in an eternal life of pure paradise, where God is going to take their side on every issue, and pass out punishments to everyone they feel ever harmed, them, disagreed with them, or made them to take responsibility for their own actions.

You see, Christians don't believe in taking responsibility for their own actions (or inaction), which is why they invented Jesus to take that responsibility for them.

The damned book says what it says. Either read it, or stop proclaiming that you believe it. When you alter what it says, all you're believing in, is your own subjective ideals.
"If we believe absurdities we shall commit atrocities." -- Voltaire
annanicole
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8/28/2014 3:55:41 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/28/2014 3:44:03 AM, Beastt wrote:
At 8/27/2014 10:16:41 AM, popculturepooka wrote:
***fundamentalist reading alert***

If you don't like what it says, then it's metaphorical.

If what it says is easily demonstrated to be wrong, then it's a parable.

If it supports what you personally believe - putting God on your team - then it's literal.

Christians squirm around attempting to make fun of people who read what the Bible actually says, point fingers and laugh. The Bible claims that anyone with faith who prays, will receive what they have prayed for. That's simply what it says. But everyone knows that doesn't happen... so it's metaphorical, it's figurative, it says anything but what that arrangement of words actually conveys.

Of course it's metaphorical. You can't find a single example of any Christians in the NT trying to implement a scheme such as you are advocating. Not only does no one take the passage to be literal now, there is no evidence that anyone ever did. "Ask, and it shall be given to you". Any evidence that people ever took that literal? "Seek, and ye shall find." So if a Christian misplaces his wallet or purse or keys, it's guaranteed that he'll find them?
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
bulproof
Posts: 25,308
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8/28/2014 4:22:42 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/28/2014 3:55:41 AM, annanicole wrote:
At 8/28/2014 3:44:03 AM, Beastt wrote:
At 8/27/2014 10:16:41 AM, popculturepooka wrote:
***fundamentalist reading alert***

If you don't like what it says, then it's metaphorical.

If what it says is easily demonstrated to be wrong, then it's a parable.

If it supports what you personally believe - putting God on your team - then it's literal.

Christians squirm around attempting to make fun of people who read what the Bible actually says, point fingers and laugh. The Bible claims that anyone with faith who prays, will receive what they have prayed for. That's simply what it says. But everyone knows that doesn't happen... so it's metaphorical, it's figurative, it says anything but what that arrangement of words actually conveys.

Of course it's metaphorical. You can't find a single example of any Christians in the NT trying to implement a scheme such as you are advocating. Not only does no one take the passage to be literal now, there is no evidence that anyone ever did. "Ask, and it shall be given to you". Any evidence that people ever took that literal? "Seek, and ye shall find." So if a Christian misplaces his wallet or purse or keys, it's guaranteed that he'll find them?

How does what you believe christians believe has any effect on what your god said?
annanicole
Posts: 19,793
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8/28/2014 4:34:58 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/28/2014 4:22:42 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 8/28/2014 3:55:41 AM, annanicole wrote:
At 8/28/2014 3:44:03 AM, Beastt wrote:
At 8/27/2014 10:16:41 AM, popculturepooka wrote:
***fundamentalist reading alert***

If you don't like what it says, then it's metaphorical.

If what it says is easily demonstrated to be wrong, then it's a parable.

If it supports what you personally believe - putting God on your team - then it's literal.

Christians squirm around attempting to make fun of people who read what the Bible actually says, point fingers and laugh. The Bible claims that anyone with faith who prays, will receive what they have prayed for. That's simply what it says. But everyone knows that doesn't happen... so it's metaphorical, it's figurative, it says anything but what that arrangement of words actually conveys.

Of course it's metaphorical. You can't find a single example of any Christians in the NT trying to implement a scheme such as you are advocating. Not only does no one take the passage to be literal now, there is no evidence that anyone ever did. "Ask, and it shall be given to you". Any evidence that people ever took that literal? "Seek, and ye shall find." So if a Christian misplaces his wallet or purse or keys, it's guaranteed that he'll find them?

How does what you believe christians believe has any effect on what your god said?

You might try that one again when you are feeling better.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
neutral
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8/28/2014 4:40:54 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/28/2014 3:31:57 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 8/27/2014 1:03:30 PM, neutral wrote:

Okay, I'll address your points.

19 "Yet you say, "Why should the son not bear the guilt of the father?" Because the son has done what is lawful and right, and has kept all My statutes and observed them, he shall surely live. 20 The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself. Ezekiel 18:19-20

The rest of the Chapter gives ample further evidence.

The only evidence I see is that the Bible is contradictory. This happens all the time. Someone posts a quote from the Bible. Then someone else posts another quote which says the diametric opposite. They then think their job is done. It's like a game. The Bible is big enough and has enough support for almost any position imaginable that anyone can play. It's a joke and it's why atheists become exasperated with trying to discuss anything with Christians.

I reject that your Ezekiel quote trumps the one I gave. You need to address, if the Exodus text is the word of god, why it was written if it is simply to be ignored.

I wonder if atheists are aware that the Old Testament is in the context of 'God's Chosen People'? That this was a small sect of people in a powerful world of big empire's that required God's protection and DISCIPLINE to maintain defense a harsh and cruel world to safeguard that message.

Are you serious? An omnipotent god could not protect his chosen people other than by getting them to observe a temporary set of laws? Come on, you can do better apologetics than that!

As that message is converted into a human wide ethic, much will changes as the 'defense' of Israel become less necessary to safeguarding that message. Its not longer a question of just protecting the Jews, as humans of honor who follow God are now found in every Nation on Earth. Which is favored now? The one that sets policies based on ethical constructs against that which is over ripe for power?

This is why I posted the Matthew passage. It's straight out of the mouth of Jesus. Not one dot or iota is to change.

One of the curious rings you see in history is the power of ethic. Those Nations which align themselves with universal ethical principles generally prosper (Prussia) and when those same Nations disregard those ethics they decline (Germany). You can see the same thing in Chinese History, righteous Emperors lead to Chinese power, unethical Emperors lead to decline.

Irrelevant and probably unhistoric. The quality or otherwise of ethical systems used by various societies is not the issue under discussion.

Or ... I suppose you could just ripe things out of context and apply literally absurd interpretations born of unfamiliarity and ignorance, whose sole contribution seems to be to deliberately get it wrong in the first place in the worst possible way imaginable.

Nice diatribe but you haven't explained how my interpretation is absurd nor how I got it wrong. All you have done is to try to sweep it under the carpet by vague claims that the commandments relayed by Moses (allegedly) were only of a temporary nature like martial law when a nation's security is under threat. Yet Exodus 20 which I quoted is all about a jealous god and his need for exclusive worship. Ethical considerations which you waxed lyrical about don't come into it.

Are you saying that god's jealousy abated over the centuries and he no longer demands exclusive worship? Is that really your position?

Do you even understand what Exodus is atheist? Why would assume that guidance given to people in the middle of a decades long slog through desret, surrounded by enemies, was meant for every person in every situation?

Oh, you reject your interpretation because you think Christians don;t follow Christ as primary and are unaware, as you are, that context matters - furthermore, that the block listed in the OP is not 'the Law' but instruction given to a situation where, in a tribal construct, failing to do ones duty in a patriachal society would indeed effect the whole family by, at the very least, expunging them from critical posts and responsibilities if not simply cause them to be caste loose? And this would NOT be meant for situations outside of this?

The actual law? Did Jesus sustain that? Is adultery STILL bad? Yep. Oh, punishment in the OT is not the law - its the punishment - and, as we see throughout Christian theology, Jesus and Grace is indeed a repudiation of the punishment of 'death'.

Again, why is in that no Chirtian interpretation of the events exists as you see it? Because yours is an extremist intepretation supported by your prejudices and sustained by ... well, my cherry picked, non-contextual and so poorly undertsood interpretation of scripture that doesn;t evensupport my position, er ... well, I will reject any Christian interpretation that makes events look nominally common sensical because my faith requires it to be screwed up at all costs - I INSIST on seeing that way.

That about right?

Again, the ignorance here is rather astounding as is the obstinace that another non-professional and non-doctrinal, extremist interpretation is correct - because you say so.

Where is Beasty to scream, "How dare you pretnd that you know more about Christianity than Christians ... er, atheism then atheists!"

Where did you even come by such an extreme interpretation? Certainly not by sitting around purusing the Bible now did you? Or you would have undertsood what the Exodus was and concluded, and indeed understood, that the Israelites in the OT, rather routinely got things both right and wrong and that story, brutally honest, was recorded precisely because we could derive ACCURATE lessons from their history.

Or we could conclude that we are condemned by our parents ... fovever ... even though this is clearly no what Christian teach - obviously we are all screwed up and don't understand our own faith!

Silliness.
bulproof
Posts: 25,308
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8/28/2014 4:42:14 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/28/2014 4:34:58 AM, annanicole wrote:
At 8/28/2014 4:22:42 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 8/28/2014 3:55:41 AM, annanicole wrote:
At 8/28/2014 3:44:03 AM, Beastt wrote:
At 8/27/2014 10:16:41 AM, popculturepooka wrote:
***fundamentalist reading alert***

If you don't like what it says, then it's metaphorical.

If what it says is easily demonstrated to be wrong, then it's a parable.

If it supports what you personally believe - putting God on your team - then it's literal.

Christians squirm around attempting to make fun of people who read what the Bible actually says, point fingers and laugh. The Bible claims that anyone with faith who prays, will receive what they have prayed for. That's simply what it says. But everyone knows that doesn't happen... so it's metaphorical, it's figurative, it says anything but what that arrangement of words actually conveys.

Of course it's metaphorical. You can't find a single example of any Christians in the NT trying to implement a scheme such as you are advocating. Not only does no one take the passage to be literal now, there is no evidence that anyone ever did. "Ask, and it shall be given to you". Any evidence that people ever took that literal? "Seek, and ye shall find." So if a Christian misplaces his wallet or purse or keys, it's guaranteed that he'll find them?

How does what you believe christians believe has any effect on what your god said?

You might try that one again when you are feeling better.

Try a little attempted reading comprehension.
annanicole
Posts: 19,793
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8/28/2014 5:15:18 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/28/2014 4:42:14 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 8/28/2014 4:34:58 AM, annanicole wrote:
At 8/28/2014 4:22:42 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 8/28/2014 3:55:41 AM, annanicole wrote:
At 8/28/2014 3:44:03 AM, Beastt wrote:
At 8/27/2014 10:16:41 AM, popculturepooka wrote:
***fundamentalist reading alert***

If you don't like what it says, then it's metaphorical.

If what it says is easily demonstrated to be wrong, then it's a parable.

If it supports what you personally believe - putting God on your team - then it's literal.

Christians squirm around attempting to make fun of people who read what the Bible actually says, point fingers and laugh. The Bible claims that anyone with faith who prays, will receive what they have prayed for. That's simply what it says. But everyone knows that doesn't happen... so it's metaphorical, it's figurative, it says anything but what that arrangement of words actually conveys.

Of course it's metaphorical. You can't find a single example of any Christians in the NT trying to implement a scheme such as you are advocating. Not only does no one take the passage to be literal now, there is no evidence that anyone ever did. "Ask, and it shall be given to you". Any evidence that people ever took that literal? "Seek, and ye shall find." So if a Christian misplaces his wallet or purse or keys, it's guaranteed that he'll find them?

How does what you believe christians believe has any effect on what your god said?

You might try that one again when you are feeling better.

Try a little attempted reading comprehension.

Try naming the subject and verb of sentence.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
dee-em
Posts: 6,497
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8/28/2014 8:11:55 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/28/2014 4:40:54 AM, neutral wrote:

Do you even understand what Exodus is atheist? Why would assume that guidance given to people in the middle of a decades long slog through desret, surrounded by enemies, was meant for every person in every situation?

Oh, you reject your interpretation because you think Christians don;t follow Christ as primary and are unaware, as you are, that context matters - furthermore, that the block listed in the OP is not 'the Law' but instruction given to a situation where, in a tribal construct, failing to do ones duty in a patriachal society would indeed effect the whole family by, at the very least, expunging them from critical posts and responsibilities if not simply cause them to be caste loose? And this would NOT be meant for situations outside of this?

The actual law? Did Jesus sustain that? Is adultery STILL bad? Yep. Oh, punishment in the OT is not the law - its the punishment - and, as we see throughout Christian theology, Jesus and Grace is indeed a repudiation of the punishment of 'death'.

Again, why is in that no Chirtian interpretation of the events exists as you see it? Because yours is an extremist intepretation supported by your prejudices and sustained by ... well, my cherry picked, non-contextual and so poorly undertsood interpretation of scripture that doesn;t evensupport my position, er ... well, I will reject any Christian interpretation that makes events look nominally common sensical because my faith requires it to be screwed up at all costs - I INSIST on seeing that way.

That about right?

Again, the ignorance here is rather astounding as is the obstinace that another non-professional and non-doctrinal, extremist interpretation is correct - because you say so.

Where is Beasty to scream, "How dare you pretnd that you know more about Christianity than Christians ... er, atheism then atheists!"

Where did you even come by such an extreme interpretation? Certainly not by sitting around purusing the Bible now did you? Or you would have undertsood what the Exodus was and concluded, and indeed understood, that the Israelites in the OT, rather routinely got things both right and wrong and that story, brutally honest, was recorded precisely because we could derive ACCURATE lessons from their history.

Or we could conclude that we are condemned by our parents ... fovever ... even though this is clearly no what Christian teach - obviously we are all screwed up and don't understand our own faith!

Silliness.

So, despite all the sound and fury you have no real refutation to anything I have said except: you're a silly atheist, you're ignorant, you can't understand, ...

Firstly, Exodus is unhistorical. There is no evidence of a mass migration of a Hebrew people out of Egypt so the whole thing is almost certainly fable.

Secondly, not one of the commandments in Exodus 20 is about survival as such. There is nothing specific dealing with how to live in a wandering tribe surrounded by enemies as you put it. It is purely about how god wants his subjects to behave.

Lastly, your "punishment in the OT is not the law - its the punishment" is a classic. So god dishes out punishment and no-one has a clue as to why they are being punished. Have you read your own book? That passage has verse after verse of "thou shalt ..." and "thou shalt not ...". That sounds like laying down the law to me. But I'm just a silly atheist. What do I know?
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,927
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8/28/2014 8:16:48 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/28/2014 3:44:03 AM, Beastt wrote:
At 8/27/2014 10:16:41 AM, popculturepooka wrote:
***fundamentalist reading alert***

If you don't like what it says, then it's metaphorical.

If what it says is easily demonstrated to be wrong, then it's a parable.

If it supports what you personally believe - putting God on your team - then it's literal.

Christians squirm around attempting to make fun of people who read what the Bible actually says, point fingers and laugh. The Bible claims that anyone with faith who prays, will receive what they have prayed for. That's simply what it says. But everyone knows that doesn't happen... so it's metaphorical, it's figurative, it says anything but what that arrangement of words actually conveys.

This is a necessary dishonesty in holding to a belief in Christianity - if Christians were honest about what the Bible says, they'd have to admit that it's a miserable failure, and abandoned their belief in an eternal life of pure paradise, where God is going to take their side on every issue, and pass out punishments to everyone they feel ever harmed, them, disagreed with them, or made them to take responsibility for their own actions.

You see, Christians don't believe in taking responsibility for their own actions (or inaction), which is why they invented Jesus to take that responsibility for them.

The damned book says what it says. Either read it, or stop proclaiming that you believe it. When you alter what it says, all you're believing in, is your own subjective ideals.

Cool story bro. Didn't know you can read minds. Must come with the atheism, eh?
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
neutral
Posts: 4,478
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8/28/2014 11:38:16 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/28/2014 8:11:55 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 8/28/2014 4:40:54 AM, neutral wrote:

Do you even understand what Exodus is atheist? Why would assume that guidance given to people in the middle of a decades long slog through desret, surrounded by enemies, was meant for every person in every situation?

Oh, you reject your interpretation because you think Christians don;t follow Christ as primary and are unaware, as you are, that context matters - furthermore, that the block listed in the OP is not 'the Law' but instruction given to a situation where, in a tribal construct, failing to do ones duty in a patriachal society would indeed effect the whole family by, at the very least, expunging them from critical posts and responsibilities if not simply cause them to be caste loose? And this would NOT be meant for situations outside of this?

The actual law? Did Jesus sustain that? Is adultery STILL bad? Yep. Oh, punishment in the OT is not the law - its the punishment - and, as we see throughout Christian theology, Jesus and Grace is indeed a repudiation of the punishment of 'death'.

Again, why is in that no Chirtian interpretation of the events exists as you see it? Because yours is an extremist intepretation supported by your prejudices and sustained by ... well, my cherry picked, non-contextual and so poorly undertsood interpretation of scripture that doesn;t evensupport my position, er ... well, I will reject any Christian interpretation that makes events look nominally common sensical because my faith requires it to be screwed up at all costs - I INSIST on seeing that way.

That about right?

Again, the ignorance here is rather astounding as is the obstinace that another non-professional and non-doctrinal, extremist interpretation is correct - because you say so.

Where is Beasty to scream, "How dare you pretnd that you know more about Christianity than Christians ... er, atheism then atheists!"

Where did you even come by such an extreme interpretation? Certainly not by sitting around purusing the Bible now did you? Or you would have undertsood what the Exodus was and concluded, and indeed understood, that the Israelites in the OT, rather routinely got things both right and wrong and that story, brutally honest, was recorded precisely because we could derive ACCURATE lessons from their history.

Or we could conclude that we are condemned by our parents ... fovever ... even though this is clearly no what Christian teach - obviously we are all screwed up and don't understand our own faith!

Silliness.

So, despite all the sound and fury you have no real refutation to anything I have said except: you're a silly atheist, you're ignorant, you can't understand, ...

Firstly, Exodus is unhistorical. There is no evidence of a mass migration of a Hebrew people out of Egypt so the whole thing is almost certainly fable.

Secondly, not one of the commandments in Exodus 20 is about survival as such. There is nothing specific dealing with how to live in a wandering tribe surrounded by enemies as you put it. It is purely about how god wants his subjects to behave.

Lastly, your "punishment in the OT is not the law - its the punishment" is a classic. So god dishes out punishment and no-one has a clue as to why they are being punished. Have you read your own book? That passage has verse after verse of "thou shalt ..." and "thou shalt not ...". That sounds like laying down the law to me. But I'm just a silly atheist. What do I know?

Whatever your delusional rant needs rather than conceding pionts like.

Yes, I am an atheist sitting around reading the bible when I discovered this and then mangled it beyond recognition.

Yes, I am an atheist who is learned of the bible ... Which I am reading for the first time, but that is not contradictory, but has no idea what the exodus is and how guidance for crisis and normal times might differ.

Yes, I am a VERY learned atheist, who does not know that the law! which my Matthew reference, er ... Referenced, was referring to laws in Deuteronomy. Yes, I am wearing a lab coat you see ..,

Yes, I am an atheist, who has no mixed up standards, laws, with punishments, sentencing, demonstrating a incredible ignorance of both present day jurisprudence and pretty much the entire concept if grace as revealed in the New Testament.

Yes, I am an atheist that remains unconvinced by these perfectly reasonable explanations that my expertise on the bible, which is am reading for the first time, clearly does not demand I accept.

Yes, am an atheist, which we all know is quite common, who is not making a case based on superior knowledge for the first time, but finding any piddling excuse to reject anything you say because real intellectualism is not about understanding or truth - it's about never having to acknowledge you are wrong. I am an atheist, you know this, you know that at least on the last part here ... I speak truth.

That about it?

Are you done with the festering ignorance of a major world religion?