Total Posts:233|Showing Posts:1-30|Last Page
Jump to topic:

Omnipotence Paradox

collegekitchen7
Posts: 974
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/15/2010 2:04:17 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/15/2010 1:55:30 PM, Immortal wrote:
"Can God create a rock so heavy even he cannot lift it?"

Anyone want to tackle this?

he could but it would implode due to its massive gravity and form a black hole
: At 3/24/2010 1:38:15 PM, Mirza wrote:
: But it's human nature. You're born inside your mother, so what's wrong with having some sexual activity with her?

: At 3/18/2010 6:48:05 AM, kelly224 wrote:
: read some credible history books, unplug from the matrix.

: At 3/21/2010 4:13:56 PM, Scott_Mann wrote:
: Stocks would not go up 30% over something that hasn't even happened yet.

: At 3/21/2010 6:06:10 PM, banker wrote:
: It apears you have a wierd grasp of english..! its only second to
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/15/2010 2:04:47 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/15/2010 2:04:17 PM, collegekitchen7 wrote:
At 3/15/2010 1:55:30 PM, Immortal wrote:
"Can God create a rock so heavy even he cannot lift it?"

Anyone want to tackle this?

he could but it would implode due to its massive gravity and form a black hole

LOL what"??
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/15/2010 2:05:57 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/15/2010 2:04:17 PM, collegekitchen7 wrote:
At 3/15/2010 1:55:30 PM, Immortal wrote:
"Can God create a rock so heavy even he cannot lift it?"

Anyone want to tackle this?

he could but it would implode due to its massive gravity and form a black hole

Couldn't he just suspend gravity for a little while??
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
collegekitchen7
Posts: 974
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/15/2010 2:06:25 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/15/2010 2:04:47 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 3/15/2010 2:04:17 PM, collegekitchen7 wrote:
At 3/15/2010 1:55:30 PM, Immortal wrote:
"Can God create a rock so heavy even he cannot lift it?"

Anyone want to tackle this?

he could but it would implode due to its massive gravity and form a black hole

LOL what"??

Gravitational collapse
Main article: Gravitational collapse

Gravitational collapse occurs when an object's internal pressure is insufficient to resist the object's own gravity. For stars this usually occurs either because a star has too little "fuel" left to maintain its temperature, or because a star which would have been stable receives extra matter in a way which does not raise its core temperature. In either case the star's temperature is no longer high enough to prevent it from collapsing under its own weight (the ideal gas law explains the connection between pressure, temperature, and volume).[55]
: At 3/24/2010 1:38:15 PM, Mirza wrote:
: But it's human nature. You're born inside your mother, so what's wrong with having some sexual activity with her?

: At 3/18/2010 6:48:05 AM, kelly224 wrote:
: read some credible history books, unplug from the matrix.

: At 3/21/2010 4:13:56 PM, Scott_Mann wrote:
: Stocks would not go up 30% over something that hasn't even happened yet.

: At 3/21/2010 6:06:10 PM, banker wrote:
: It apears you have a wierd grasp of english..! its only second to
collegekitchen7
Posts: 974
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/15/2010 2:07:13 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/15/2010 2:05:57 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 3/15/2010 2:04:17 PM, collegekitchen7 wrote:
At 3/15/2010 1:55:30 PM, Immortal wrote:
"Can God create a rock so heavy even he cannot lift it?"

Anyone want to tackle this?

he could but it would implode due to its massive gravity and form a black hole

Couldn't he just suspend gravity for a little while??

And cause the destruction of all life? That's contradictory to God's will.
: At 3/24/2010 1:38:15 PM, Mirza wrote:
: But it's human nature. You're born inside your mother, so what's wrong with having some sexual activity with her?

: At 3/18/2010 6:48:05 AM, kelly224 wrote:
: read some credible history books, unplug from the matrix.

: At 3/21/2010 4:13:56 PM, Scott_Mann wrote:
: Stocks would not go up 30% over something that hasn't even happened yet.

: At 3/21/2010 6:06:10 PM, banker wrote:
: It apears you have a wierd grasp of english..! its only second to
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/15/2010 2:12:20 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/15/2010 2:07:13 PM, collegekitchen7 wrote:

And cause the destruction of all life? That's contradictory to God's will.

he could suspend it only for the rock dummy... He's GOD.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
collegekitchen7
Posts: 974
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/15/2010 2:18:49 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/15/2010 2:12:20 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
he could suspend it only for the rock dummy... He's GOD.

Well then clearly he could create a rock that he could not lift if that was his will.

Since we're operating on the basis that God can suspend gravity internally for a star then yes its possible.

And i know the assumed retort will be 'WELL IF HE'S ALL POWERFUL THAT'S A PARADOX"

which would be incorrect.

If we're assuming he can do anything that he can simply (willingly) reduce his strength by putting himself in human form (Jesus) in which case he wouldn't be able to lift massive rocks.

It's not then a question of whether He can't lift the rock of that size but whether he willingly chooses to be unable to lift the rock.

Thus by this reasoning God can create a rock he cannot lift
and God can't create a rock he cannot lift.
: At 3/24/2010 1:38:15 PM, Mirza wrote:
: But it's human nature. You're born inside your mother, so what's wrong with having some sexual activity with her?

: At 3/18/2010 6:48:05 AM, kelly224 wrote:
: read some credible history books, unplug from the matrix.

: At 3/21/2010 4:13:56 PM, Scott_Mann wrote:
: Stocks would not go up 30% over something that hasn't even happened yet.

: At 3/21/2010 6:06:10 PM, banker wrote:
: It apears you have a wierd grasp of english..! its only second to
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/15/2010 2:22:06 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/15/2010 2:18:49 PM, collegekitchen7 wrote:

And i know the assumed retort will be 'WELL IF HE'S ALL POWERFUL THAT'S A PARADOX"

Not mine... I don't try to reason much about things completely beyond my understanding.

I guess you could say I know my limits.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
collegekitchen7
Posts: 974
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/15/2010 2:23:23 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/15/2010 2:22:06 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
I guess you could say I know my limits.

Self-imposed limitations are restrictive of your natural ability.
: At 3/24/2010 1:38:15 PM, Mirza wrote:
: But it's human nature. You're born inside your mother, so what's wrong with having some sexual activity with her?

: At 3/18/2010 6:48:05 AM, kelly224 wrote:
: read some credible history books, unplug from the matrix.

: At 3/21/2010 4:13:56 PM, Scott_Mann wrote:
: Stocks would not go up 30% over something that hasn't even happened yet.

: At 3/21/2010 6:06:10 PM, banker wrote:
: It apears you have a wierd grasp of english..! its only second to
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/15/2010 2:28:55 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/15/2010 2:23:23 PM, collegekitchen7 wrote:
I Am God HERE ME ROAR!!!

uh... not self imposed. I really don't know of any reason to say God exists... and if there is a God I haven't a clue what HIS limitations are.

Thus I wouldn't claim "God" can't be paradoxical yet true. He's quite beyond me.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
Immortal
Posts: 350
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/15/2010 2:32:23 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/15/2010 2:04:17 PM, collegekitchen7 wrote:
At 3/15/2010 1:55:30 PM, Immortal wrote:
"Can God create a rock so heavy even he cannot lift it?"

Anyone want to tackle this?

he could but it would implode due to its massive gravity and form a black hole

God does not have to obey gravity or black holes. If he can make the rock but can't lift it, then he's not omnipotent.
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,924
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/15/2010 2:46:18 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/15/2010 2:32:23 PM, Immortal wrote:
At 3/15/2010 2:04:17 PM, collegekitchen7 wrote:
At 3/15/2010 1:55:30 PM, Immortal wrote:
"Can God create a rock so heavy even he cannot lift it?"

Anyone want to tackle this?

he could but it would implode due to its massive gravity and form a black hole

God does not have to obey gravity or black holes. If he can make the rock but can't lift it, then he's not omnipotent.

.....

"Assuming I have misunderstood his argument and the classical stone paradox is meant to disprove God I will refute that objection as well.

Typically, omnipotence is defined in two ways:

1) The ability to do absolutely anything (including logical impossibilities).
2) The ability to do anything logically possible.

From my understanding of omnipotence it really means (roughly) what number 2 is stating. I will answer the paradox from both definitions of omnipotence for posterity, however.

Take the first definition of omnipotence - God can do absolutely *anything*. Notice what this does, though. This makes it that God can make logical contradictions true. So, let's say that Con presents an airtight sound logical argument showing that no such omnipotent being as God can exist. I mean an argument that absolutely disproves God and no rational person could think otherwise. Well, if God can do absolutely anything he can make it that he exists even though Con's sound logical argument shows that he doesn't! I don't think Con wants to take this option.

Take the second definition of omnipotence - God can do anything logically possible. This is the position I actually hold. Creating a stone that is too heavy for an omnipotent being to lift must be nonsense then. A logical contradiction isn't a task. It isn't any"thing" in fact. Is a square circle a thing? No, of course not. It's not even a possibility. It's an incoherent "concept" if I may even call it that. Saying that God doesn't have omnipotence (and therefore can't exist) because he can't create a logical contradiction like creating a stone too heavy for him to lift is absurd. In essence Con is asking a meaningless question akin to this: "Green remaining Japanese sky cat? Ha! Can God do that? No?! Well, then God doesn't exist; furthermore, I can conceive of a more powerful force that can do that!"" -- Me from my debate about God's existence.

Seriously, guys. There are better objections to God's existence but this isn't one of them.
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
FREEDO
Posts: 21,057
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/15/2010 2:50:11 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/15/2010 1:55:30 PM, Immortal wrote:
"Can God create a rock so heavy even he cannot lift it?"

Anyone want to tackle this?

I said I would never link to my blog again unless someone asked but I have a post on this. Would you like to see?
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
Immortal
Posts: 350
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/15/2010 2:54:39 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/15/2010 2:50:11 PM, FREEDO wrote:
At 3/15/2010 1:55:30 PM, Immortal wrote:
"Can God create a rock so heavy even he cannot lift it?"

Anyone want to tackle this?

I said I would never link to my blog again unless someone asked but I have a post on this. Would you like to see?

Alright.
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,924
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/15/2010 2:55:08 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/15/2010 2:50:11 PM, FREEDO wrote:
At 3/15/2010 1:55:30 PM, Immortal wrote:
"Can God create a rock so heavy even he cannot lift it?"

Anyone want to tackle this?

I said I would never link to my blog again unless someone asked but I have a post on this. Would you like to see?

I looked. All 3 of your contentions fail.

1. All things are caused.

Nope. Fail.

2.It's impossible for something to have always existed.

Nope. Fail.

3. Circular reasoning is impossible, nothing can cause itself.

Circular reasoning isn't impossible but nothing can't cause itself so you're half right. Half-fail.
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
FREEDO
Posts: 21,057
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/15/2010 3:01:04 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/15/2010 2:54:39 PM, Immortal wrote:
At 3/15/2010 2:50:11 PM, FREEDO wrote:
At 3/15/2010 1:55:30 PM, Immortal wrote:
"Can God create a rock so heavy even he cannot lift it?"

Anyone want to tackle this?

I said I would never link to my blog again unless someone asked but I have a post on this. Would you like to see?

Alright.

http://freedosphere.wordpress.com...
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
Immortal
Posts: 350
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/15/2010 3:06:16 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
The Omnipotence Paradox isn't an objection to God's existence. It's a rejection to omnipotence.

Can God create a rock that even he cannot lift?
If he can create that rock, this means he cannot lift it. Therefore, he's not omnipotent.
If he cannot create that rock, he's not omnipotent.

Matthew 19:26 (New International Version): Jesus looked at them and said, "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."

If God cannot do the logically impossible, this shows that he does not have unlimited power. His power is limited by logical contradictions.
belle
Posts: 4,113
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/15/2010 3:09:36 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
and if he can then we can pretty much cease talking about god since its impossible to say anything intelligible about him :P
evidently i only come to ddo to avoid doing homework...
FREEDO
Posts: 21,057
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/15/2010 3:13:59 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/15/2010 3:06:16 PM, Immortal wrote:
The Omnipotence Paradox isn't an objection to God's existence. It's a rejection to omnipotence.

Can God create a rock that even he cannot lift?
If he can create that rock, this means he cannot lift it. Therefore, he's not omnipotent.
If he cannot create that rock, he's not omnipotent.

Matthew 19:26 (New International Version): Jesus looked at them and said, "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."

If God cannot do the logically impossible, this shows that he does not have unlimited power. His power is limited by logical contradictions.

Was this directed at me? Yes I know. Basically what my blog-post states is that neither God nor anything else can contradict the laws of reality.
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,924
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/15/2010 3:15:12 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/15/2010 3:06:16 PM, Immortal wrote:
The Omnipotence Paradox isn't an objection to God's existence. It's a rejection to omnipotence.

Can God create a rock that even he cannot lift?
If he can create that rock, this means he cannot lift it. Therefore, he's not omnipotent.
If he cannot create that rock, he's not omnipotent.

Matthew 19:26 (New International Version): Jesus looked at them and said, "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."

If God cannot do the logically impossible, this shows that he does not have unlimited power. His power is limited by logical contradictions.

*facepalm*

Even though I've ALREADY said the same thing: http://www.philosophyofreligion.info...

It really isn't a good argument.
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
FREEDO
Posts: 21,057
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/15/2010 3:15:24 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/15/2010 2:55:08 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 3/15/2010 2:50:11 PM, FREEDO wrote:
At 3/15/2010 1:55:30 PM, Immortal wrote:
"Can God create a rock so heavy even he cannot lift it?"

Anyone want to tackle this?

I said I would never link to my blog again unless someone asked but I have a post on this. Would you like to see?

I looked. All 3 of your contentions fail.

1. All things are caused.

Nope. Fail.

2.It's impossible for something to have always existed.

Nope. Fail.

3. Circular reasoning is impossible, nothing can cause itself.

Circular reasoning isn't impossible but nothing can't cause itself so you're half right. Half-fail.

Just stating things is pretty easy. Mind elaborating on that?
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/15/2010 3:16:03 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/15/2010 3:13:59 PM, FREEDO wrote:
laws of reality.

Whose Reality?

Or in other words:
Watchoo talkin bout willis?
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
FREEDO
Posts: 21,057
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/15/2010 3:20:19 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/15/2010 3:16:03 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 3/15/2010 3:13:59 PM, FREEDO wrote:
laws of reality.

Whose Reality?

Or in other words:
Watchoo talkin bout willis?

Whose Reality??? Reality is not subjective. Though we have a subjective experience of it. I'm talking about the objective absoluteness.
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,924
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/15/2010 3:20:57 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/15/2010 3:01:04 PM, FREEDO wrote:

http://freedosphere.wordpress.com...

I'll debate you on any these arguments. I'll let you pick any one.
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
Immortal
Posts: 350
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/15/2010 3:21:52 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/15/2010 3:13:59 PM, FREEDO wrote:
At 3/15/2010 3:06:16 PM, Immortal wrote:
The Omnipotence Paradox isn't an objection to God's existence. It's a rejection to omnipotence.

Can God create a rock that even he cannot lift?
If he can create that rock, this means he cannot lift it. Therefore, he's not omnipotent.
If he cannot create that rock, he's not omnipotent.

Matthew 19:26 (New International Version): Jesus looked at them and said, "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."

If God cannot do the logically impossible, this shows that he does not have unlimited power. His power is limited by logical contradictions.

Was this directed at me? Yes I know. Basically what my blog-post states is that neither God nor anything else can contradict the laws of reality.

This was rather directed to popculturepooka.
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/15/2010 3:26:28 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/15/2010 3:20:19 PM, FREEDO wrote:

Whose Reality??? Reality is not subjective. Though we have a subjective experience of it. I'm talking about the objective absoluteness.

oh... would you mind relating its nature for me...
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
RoyLatham
Posts: 4,488
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/15/2010 3:26:29 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
This is really a dead issue. "Omnipotence" does not include the ability to perform a logical contradiction. It means "the ability to do all things that are possible." I think it is fair to say that was resolved hundreds of years ago, and is virtually universally so acknowledged by theologians.

A God that is omnipotent, omniscient, and good is disproved by the Argument from Evil and by the Argument from Non-Belief. That's a separate issue.
Immortal
Posts: 350
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/15/2010 3:27:51 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/15/2010 3:15:12 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 3/15/2010 3:06:16 PM, Immortal wrote:
The Omnipotence Paradox isn't an objection to God's existence. It's a rejection to omnipotence.

Can God create a rock that even he cannot lift?
If he can create that rock, this means he cannot lift it. Therefore, he's not omnipotent.
If he cannot create that rock, he's not omnipotent.

Matthew 19:26 (New International Version): Jesus looked at them and said, "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."

If God cannot do the logically impossible, this shows that he does not have unlimited power. His power is limited by logical contradictions.

*facepalm*

Even though I've ALREADY said the same thing: http://www.philosophyofreligion.info...

It really isn't a good argument.

It argues that omnipotence is a logical impossibility. There's nothing contradictory to make something that its maker cannot lift. A man could make a boat he cannot lift. Why can't God? It would be strange if humans could accomplish this feat, but an omnipotent being could not.
FREEDO
Posts: 21,057
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/15/2010 3:30:38 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/15/2010 3:26:28 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 3/15/2010 3:20:19 PM, FREEDO wrote:

Whose Reality??? Reality is not subjective. Though we have a subjective experience of it. I'm talking about the objective absoluteness.

oh... would you mind relating its nature for me...

Reality has logical laws which exist because they must exist and absolutely nothing can get around them. Such as the law that the existence of objective paradoxes is impossible.
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord