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Obedience and Rebelion

Marauder
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3/16/2010 4:14:31 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
It seems like many on this site would treat one as a virtue and the other as bad. But I wonder, in a moral system where we have it as a given that both are vertues, how would the rest of the system work to make the balance work. They are opposites yet many cases can be given to portray one as the right thing to do. How should one determine when the moral or good action is to rebell and obedience in weak or bad, and when obedience is the good and right action and rebellion is the bad?
I would like responses better than 'let your gut tell you' if you can.
One act of Rebellion created all the darkness and evil in the world; One life of Total Obedience created a path back to eternity and God.

A Scout is Obedient.
belle
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3/16/2010 4:23:29 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
thats easy. define your moral system by an end to be reached. those who are obedient to people who would steer them toward this ideal can be moral as well as those who are rebellious towards those that would steer them away.

i am not sure you could rightfully claim that either are "moral" or "immoral" in themselves.
evidently i only come to ddo to avoid doing homework...
Puck
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3/16/2010 4:25:26 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/16/2010 4:23:29 PM, belle wrote:
thats easy. define your moral system by an end to be reached. those who are obedient to people who would steer them toward this ideal can be moral as well as those who are rebellious towards those that would steer them away.

i am not sure you could rightfully claim that either are "moral" or "immoral" in themselves.

Exactly. It entirely depends on what one is being rebellious or obedient too, and why.
Marauder
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3/16/2010 4:27:57 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Right witch is why the situations would have to dictate if the action is right.
But determining it based an end goal action requires not only that truth be objective, but for it to be applied you must dicide you always know what it is. and if you know what is the good end goal then for yourself you should never be obiedient for you know better.
One act of Rebellion created all the darkness and evil in the world; One life of Total Obedience created a path back to eternity and God.

A Scout is Obedient.
Puck
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3/16/2010 4:36:13 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/16/2010 4:27:57 PM, Marauder wrote:
Right witch is why the situations would have to dictate if the action is right.
But determining it based an end goal action requires not only that truth be objective, but for it to be applied you must dicide you always know what it is.

No, all it requires is you have the goal and the opportunity to reach it.

and if you know what is the good end goal then for yourself you should never be obiedient for you know better.

Huh?
Marauder
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3/16/2010 4:41:24 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/16/2010 4:36:13 PM, Puck wrote:
At 3/16/2010 4:27:57 PM, Marauder wrote:
Right witch is why the situations would have to dictate if the action is right.
But determining it based an end goal action requires not only that truth be objective, but for it to be applied you must decide you always know what it is.

No, all it requires is you have the goal and the opportunity to reach it.
You have to know what the goal should be (objectively) in order make obedience or rebellion for it good or bad. If you don't how can you determine the goal?

and if you know what is the good end goal then for yourself you should never be obedient for you know better.

Huh?
If you know what the goal should in what case should you be obedient, there could only be cases were you conveniently agree with someone else idea for action. but there is no trust. you know the goal so you would have done it anyway. if you would do different then that is rebellion.

I be back on tomorrow
One act of Rebellion created all the darkness and evil in the world; One life of Total Obedience created a path back to eternity and God.

A Scout is Obedient.
Puck
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3/16/2010 4:42:51 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/16/2010 4:41:24 PM, Marauder wrote:
At 3/16/2010 4:36:13 PM, Puck wrote:
At 3/16/2010 4:27:57 PM, Marauder wrote:
Right witch is why the situations would have to dictate if the action is right.
But determining it based an end goal action requires not only that truth be objective, but for it to be applied you must decide you always know what it is.

No, all it requires is you have the goal and the opportunity to reach it.
You have to know what the goal should be (objectively) in order make obedience or rebellion for it good or bad. If you don't how can you determine the goal?

Objectivity has nothing to do with it. Determining a goal does.


and if you know what is the good end goal then for yourself you should never be obedient for you know better.

Huh?
If you know what the goal should in what case should you be obedient, there could only be cases were you conveniently agree with someone else idea for action. but there is no trust. you know the goal so you would have done it anyway. if you would do different then that is rebellion.

Nope, still huh?
GeoLaureate8
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3/16/2010 4:42:59 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Obedience is bad in all circumstances. (Pertaining to adults only.)
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
Puck
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3/16/2010 4:44:28 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/16/2010 4:42:59 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
Obedience is bad in all circumstances. (Pertaining to adults only.)

Someone's vanilla. J/k lol
belle
Posts: 4,113
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3/16/2010 4:46:46 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/16/2010 4:42:59 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
Obedience is bad in all circumstances. (Pertaining to adults only.)

lie. if someone screams DUCK and i don't obey them i may well get hit in the head with a frisbee or something worse. frisbee, luckily, is the only warning i have ever had the misfortune to not avoid. at least so far!
evidently i only come to ddo to avoid doing homework...
tkubok
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3/17/2010 6:13:16 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/16/2010 4:41:24 PM, Marauder wrote:
You have to know what the goal should be (objectively) in order make obedience or rebellion for it good or bad. If you don't how can you determine the goal?

Youre right, if we cannot determine the goal, we cannot judge whether or not obedience or rebellion is good or bad. However, in Most, if not ALL cases, we know the goal.

If you know what the goal should in what case should you be obedient, there could only be cases were you conveniently agree with someone else idea for action. but there is no trust. you know the goal so you would have done it anyway. if you would do different then that is rebellion.

Ditto with the guy before me. I dont understand this sentence at all. Your english skills are terrible.
Marauder
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3/17/2010 8:49:00 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/17/2010 6:13:16 AM, tkubok wrote:
At 3/16/2010 4:41:24 PM, Marauder wrote:
You have to know what the goal should be (objectively) in order make obedience or rebellion for it good or bad. If you don't how can you determine the goal?

Youre right, if we cannot determine the goal, we cannot judge whether or not obedience or rebellion is good or bad. However, in Most, if not ALL cases, we know the goal.

We know nothing Tkbok. You know that the goal should be the world stops believing in my imaginary friend. I know the goal should be everyone should follow Christ. Gene Rodenbarry may know the goal should be a socialist futer that uses no legle tender, while Reagan may know the goal should be free market forever.


If you know what the goal should in what case should you be obedient, there could only be cases were you conveniently agree with someone else idea for action. but there is no trust. you know the goal so you would have done it anyway. if you would do different then that is rebellion.

Ditto with the guy before me. I dont understand this sentence at all. Your english skills are terrible.

Obeidience only seems to make any point if acted upon while in disagreement with the one you are obeying. I might disagree with the scoutmaster that we should leave on the bike trail right now, because this is where the Shot Tower is and I say we have time to stop and check it out. But he is in charge. Why? because I comply and obey. I have to decide I know better to resolve to stay at the Shot Tower.

I am trying to say conveinint agreement does not count as the Obedience that I am talking about as opposed to rebellion.
One act of Rebellion created all the darkness and evil in the world; One life of Total Obedience created a path back to eternity and God.

A Scout is Obedient.
tkubok
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3/17/2010 9:36:24 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/17/2010 8:49:00 AM, Marauder wrote:
We know nothing Tkbok. You know that the goal should be the world stops believing in my imaginary friend. I know the goal should be everyone should follow Christ. Gene Rodenbarry may know the goal should be a socialist futer that uses no legle tender, while Reagan may know the goal should be free market forever.

By "know", you are talking about knowing in an absolute sense. Well, congratulations for butchering the word of "know", because, yes, if we were brains in vats, what we "Know" about physics, for example, would not be true. What a useless way of arguing. By "Know", we are talking about what is MOST likely to occur.

And by that definition, no, i dont KNOW that the goal will be people stop believing in their imaginary friends. Neither can you. But there are things, specific things, to which we can KNOW will happen, will be the goal. For example, if we legalized murder, rape and theft. I am willing to bet you anything, including a billion dollars and my soul, that crime rates will in fact increase if we did legalize them. These things we can know.

Obeidience only seems to make any point if acted upon while in disagreement with the one you are obeying. I might disagree with the scoutmaster that we should leave on the bike trail right now, because this is where the Shot Tower is and I say we have time to stop and check it out. But he is in charge. Why? because I comply and obey. I have to decide I know better to resolve to stay at the Shot Tower.
Okay. And if a government commands you to rape and pillage and kill, you would still obey, because the government is in charge? You have no free will of your own?

I am trying to say conveinint agreement does not count as the Obedience that I am talking about as opposed to rebellion.

So, youre talking about obedience in the sense that, you disagree, but you still obey? Great. Then you have no free will, youre no better than a robot.
tkubok
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3/17/2010 9:48:21 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
I think there should be a distinction between Blind obedience, and obedience after analyzation and questioning.

In a way, yes, blind obedience should be bad in all cases. Even if your parent tells you to not play with fire, her only response should not be "Because i said so", it should be a clear explanation as to WHY you shouldnt play with fire.
Floid
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3/17/2010 9:59:54 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
How should one determine when the moral or good action is to rebell and obedience in weak or bad, and when obedience is the good and right action and rebellion is the bad?
I would like responses better than 'let your gut tell you' if you can.

Well, there are thousands of years of philosophy examining that idea. The two leading candidates seem to be utilitarianism and the categorical imperative. Personally, I tend to prefer the categorical imperative.
Marauder
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3/17/2010 10:09:15 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/17/2010 9:36:24 AM, tkubok wrote:
At 3/17/2010 8:49:00 AM, Marauder wrote:
Obeidience only seems to make any point if acted upon while in disagreement with the one you are obeying. I might disagree with the scoutmaster that we should leave on the bike trail right now, because this is where the Shot Tower is and I say we have time to stop and check it out. But he is in charge. Why? because I comply and obey. I have to decide I know better to resolve to stay at the Shot Tower.
Okay. And if a government commands you to rape and pillage and kill, you would still obey, because the government is in charge? You have no free will of your own?

I am trying to say conveinint agreement does not count as the Obedience that I am talking about as opposed to rebellion.

So, youre talking about obedience in the sense that, you disagree, but you still obey? Great. Then you have no free will, youre no better than a robot.

I did not mean that I obey because he is in charge, I ment that he is in charge because I obeyed. At a group event like a scout biking trip on the New River Trail, everyone cant be made happy, I like checking out the historical landmarks when I'm on that trail, but the scoutmaster likes the physical exersise of making are way down the whole trail in a short amount of time. another scout likes stoping at every single place that sells a snack on the trail. We cannot all be happy, so to make it work someone has to make an executive decision on what we are going to do, and he's decision only means something if we listen.
I do have a choice even if I obey in disagreement, but staying at that shot tower means I find a ride home myself, it means I sacrifice spending the rest of the day with my brothers in scouts and spend it alone. It means I do not enjoy the free pizza the folks in charge provide when the day is done. the other scouts would have eatin it all up by the time I make it to the end if I catch up at all.
One act of Rebellion created all the darkness and evil in the world; One life of Total Obedience created a path back to eternity and God.

A Scout is Obedient.
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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3/17/2010 11:54:13 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/16/2010 4:46:46 PM, belle wrote:
At 3/16/2010 4:42:59 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
Obedience is bad in all circumstances. (Pertaining to adults only.)

lie. if someone screams DUCK and i don't obey them i may well get hit in the head with a frisbee or something worse. frisbee, luckily, is the only warning i have ever had the misfortune to not avoid. at least so far!

Taking someones advice =/= Obedience

Nice try though.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
Marauder
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3/17/2010 12:09:12 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/17/2010 11:54:13 AM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 3/16/2010 4:46:46 PM, belle wrote:
At 3/16/2010 4:42:59 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
Obedience is bad in all circumstances. (Pertaining to adults only.)

lie. if someone screams DUCK and i don't obey them i may well get hit in the head with a frisbee or something worse. frisbee, luckily, is the only warning i have ever had the misfortune to not avoid. at least so far!

Taking someones advice =/= Obedience

Nice try though.

That is not advice its a command. They could be pullin your chain and there is in fact no frisbee to duck from, or cannon ball, or anything else that would make ducking a good idea. Mabey they have conned you into making it diffecult to move out of the way when you realise another person has jumped over you and while in the air is about to pummle you with a water balloon. You simply have to trust them and obey in that moment regardless of the fact that you might be humilliated in a minute by doing so. When someone tells you to duck there is no time to analise the situation before doing so to make a intelligent decision about heading advice. But you can change the nature of the situation from advice to obedience by simply heading the cammond without knowing why exept that you trust this person.
One act of Rebellion created all the darkness and evil in the world; One life of Total Obedience created a path back to eternity and God.

A Scout is Obedient.
belle
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3/17/2010 12:13:08 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/17/2010 11:54:13 AM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 3/16/2010 4:46:46 PM, belle wrote:
At 3/16/2010 4:42:59 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
Obedience is bad in all circumstances. (Pertaining to adults only.)

lie. if someone screams DUCK and i don't obey them i may well get hit in the head with a frisbee or something worse. frisbee, luckily, is the only warning i have ever had the misfortune to not avoid. at least so far!

Taking someones advice =/= Obedience

Nice try though.

in this case it does. i don't have time to ascertain whether or not there is something flying at me. if i duck its because they gave a command and i listened. theres a reason they call that tense "the imperative" lol
evidently i only come to ddo to avoid doing homework...
tkubok
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3/18/2010 4:57:11 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/17/2010 10:09:15 AM, Marauder wrote:
I did not mean that I obey because he is in charge, I ment that he is in charge because I obeyed.

How could you POSSIBLY tell the difference between the two?

At a group event like a scout biking trip on the New River Trail, everyone cant be made happy, I like checking out the historical landmarks when I'm on that trail, but the scoutmaster likes the physical exersise of making are way down the whole trail in a short amount of time. another scout likes stoping at every single place that sells a snack on the trail. We cannot all be happy, so to make it work someone has to make an executive decision on what we are going to do, and he's decision only means something if we listen.

Yes, and you listen to the scout MASTER because he is in charge, and he is in charge BECAUSE youve listened to him. How is this different? If you COULDNT recognize who WAS in charge, you wouldnt be able to obey in the first place. Its why we call him the Scout MASTER.

I do have a choice even if I obey in disagreement, but staying at that shot tower means I find a ride home myself, it means I sacrifice spending the rest of the day with my brothers in scouts and spend it alone. It means I do not enjoy the free pizza the folks in charge provide when the day is done. the other scouts would have eatin it all up by the time I make it to the end if I catch up at all.

Yes, and if this were so with God, if we could actually, uh, SEE the scout master with our eyes, if we HAD examples of people who used to belong in the scout group who DID get free pizza, etc etc etc, your argument would be valid.

Too bad, in your analogy, the Scout master is INVISIBLE. And, instead, we have 10 or 20 scout PROPHETS who are telling us what the scout master is trying to tell us, and that INVISIBLE pizza, invisible toys and much much more, exist, if you just follow them off the cliffs blindly with faith. Your argument fails in respect to what is actually happening.
Marauder
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3/18/2010 8:37:05 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/18/2010 4:57:11 AM, tkubok wrote:
At 3/17/2010 10:09:15 AM, Marauder wrote:
I did not mean that I obey because he is in charge, I ment that he is in charge because I obeyed.

How could you POSSIBLY tell the difference between the two?
1 is what happened, the other is not. one implies I could possibly have no choice, the other accapts there is always a choice.


Yes, and you listen to the scout MASTER because he is in charge, and he is in charge BECAUSE youve listened to him. How is this different? If you COULDNT recognize who WAS in charge, you wouldnt be able to obey in the first place. Its why we call him the Scout MASTER.

Yes, so this shows us that justification for rebellion is not related to our disagreements. I am not spineless in my failure to rebell agianst his choice of procedure for the day, in the sense of rebelling be the moral action on the grounds of not doing so ends up with accapting choices that someone else makes that I do not want. Obedience is called for in this situation.


Yes, and if this were so with God, if we could actually, uh, SEE the scout master with our eyes, if we HAD examples of people who used to belong in the scout group who DID get free pizza, etc etc etc, your argument would be valid.

Too bad, in your analogy, the Scout master is INVISIBLE. And, instead, we have 10 or 20 scout PROPHETS who are telling us what the scout master is trying to tell us, and that INVISIBLE pizza, invisible toys and much much more, exist, if you just follow them off the cliffs blindly with faith. Your argument fails in respect to what is actually happening.

Calm down. I mentioned God once on this thread to point out our existing desinting views in various applications. I started this thread on the religon forum because I did not see a philosophy one. True that my motives for getting to the bottom of what we called justifed obiedience and rebellion came from Geo's general attitude toward galactic tryants. from his coments on this thread it seems he indeed takes the extream that there is no justifeid obidience. Now how can I hope to argue with that foundational concept if I cannot define exactly how we say when obeidience is justifed in generic terms? I can only go 'It depends on the situation' but the response I expect from that is 'what situation?' bais over the order giver? I dont like what most say about God so I shall rebell against him but I comply to the military sargents cammand to 'drop and give him 20' even though I know first hand I dont like his methods? People tell me they may disagree with there president but they support him anyway. Why? because they know they are two weak to succefully rebell. What do they call support anyway?
Before I can ever hope to take on these kind of questions I want to get a generic definition for justification of obedience and rebellion. Do we need to see the command giver, George Washinton had a fair amount of proof of his kings existance. Europe knew good and well of Hitler and his commands. Octavious and Antonie gave very opposite cammonds, who should the roman empire obey then?

I am not about to argue God with you on this forum, that is not what I made it for.
One act of Rebellion created all the darkness and evil in the world; One life of Total Obedience created a path back to eternity and God.

A Scout is Obedient.
tkubok
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3/18/2010 11:37:42 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/18/2010 8:37:05 AM, Marauder wrote:
1 is what happened, the other is not. one implies I could possibly have no choice, the other accapts there is always a choice.

No no, first of all, BOTH are what happened. One is I obeyed BECAUSE he was in charge, and the other is he was in charge BECAUSE i obeyed.

Secondly, no no, BOTH accept that there is a choice. In BOTH instances, you have the choice to disobey. Are you saying that in one case, the Scout Leader is FORCING you to obey?



Yes, so this shows us that justification for rebellion is not related to our disagreements. I am not spineless in my failure to rebell agianst his choice of procedure for the day, in the sense of rebelling be the moral action on the grounds of not doing so ends up with accapting choices that someone else makes that I do not want. Obedience is called for in this situation.

First of all, whether or not you disobey based on your disagreements, DEPENDS on the situation. Again, if Your Scout leader is leading you off a cliff, would you obey, even if you disagreed? Is obedience called for in this situation? Of course not, and you would be an idiot to obey despite your objections. The example you gave was a soft, "Oh i wont be able to eat pizza" sort of situation, where your disagreement doesnt have any dire consequences.

Secondly, again, it depends on the situation. As stated above, if your scout leader is leading you off a cliff, your disagreement IS justification for disobedience.

Calm down.
I wasnt aware that i was hyperventilating.

I mentioned God once on this thread to point out our existing desinting views in various applications. I started this thread on the religon forum because I did not see a philosophy one. True that my motives for getting to the bottom of what we called justifed obiedience and rebellion came from Geo's general attitude toward galactic tryants. from his coments on this thread it seems he indeed takes the extream that there is no justifeid obidience. Now how can I hope to argue with that foundational concept if I cannot define exactly how we say when obeidience is justifed in generic terms? I can only go 'It depends on the situation' but the response I expect from that is 'what situation?' bais over the order giver? I dont like what most say about God so I shall rebell against him but I comply to the military sargents cammand to 'drop and give him 20' even though I know first hand I dont like his methods? People tell me they may disagree with there president but they support him anyway. Why? because they know they are two weak to succefully rebell. What do they call support anyway?

First off, theres a difference between Support and Obey. I dont know why you are trying to mince these words.

Secondly, if youre asking for "What situation", id be glad to give you a dozen situations where God seemingly orders something, to which i believe we should not blindly obey, and infact resist, like most, if not all the levitical laws, for example. However, in the example you gave of your military seargents command to drop and give you 20, sure, id comply with that, as i said above, it has very little consequences. But if my military seargent commands me to, say, rape and murder a village of children, no, i would not.

Likewise, if there is a God, and these laws from the bible are infact from him, there are some things there that i would have no problem following. But God, first off, doesnt send people to heaven or forgoe punishment because someone was "Kinda" following his orders. And secondly, yes, i WOULD refuse to do what the bible claims God asked of his people, such as sacrificing my Son, or Stoning an unruly child, or forcing a rape victim to marry her rapist.

Before I can ever hope to take on these kind of questions I want to get a generic definition for justification of obedience and rebellion. Do we need to see the command giver, George Washinton had a fair amount of proof of his kings existance. Europe knew good and well of Hitler and his commands. Octavious and Antonie gave very opposite cammonds, who should the roman empire obey then?

The authority that gives the order is irrelevant to whether you are justified in obedience or rebellion. I dont care if its my mother, or Barrack Obama with the US army behind his back. Either of them tells me i should rape and murder a 13 year old, im going to tell both of them to screw off. As i said above, what depends, is the order, and the consequence that follows.

I am not about to argue God with you on this forum, that is not what I made it for.

Funny, despite this website being "Debate dot org".
Marauder
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3/18/2010 2:44:49 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/18/2010 11:37:42 AM, tkubok wrote:
At 3/18/2010 8:37:05 AM, Marauder wrote:
1 is what happened, the other is not. one implies I could possibly have no choice, the other accapts there is always a choice.

No no, first of all, BOTH are what happened. One is I obeyed BECAUSE he was in charge, and the other is he was in charge BECAUSE i obeyed.

Secondly, no no, BOTH accept that there is a choice. In BOTH instances, you have the choice to disobey. Are you saying that in one case, the Scout Leader is FORCING you to obey?
I am saying grammaticaly one phasing of the sentance does not make that choice clear. I go out of my way to stress it for they are very passive people that use one phrasing of that sentance as an excuse to do things cause they cant ever change things they think are wrong, just accept and go with the flow. It is for those people that I avoid writing anything that condones there deledude idea's that there is ever not a choice.
Since you seem to get this from etheir way its phrased I wouldnt imagine that it would concern you. believe it or not we are on the same page hear.



First of all, whether or not you disobey based on your disagreements, DEPENDS on the situation. Again, if Your Scout leader is leading you off a cliff, would you obey, even if you disagreed? Is obedience called for in this situation? Of course not, and you would be an idiot to obey despite your objections. The example you gave was a soft, "Oh i wont be able to eat pizza" sort of situation, where your disagreement doesnt have any dire consequences.

Secondly, again, it depends on the situation. As stated above, if your scout leader is leading you off a cliff, your disagreement IS justification for disobedience.


Calm down.
I wasnt aware that i was hyperventilating.
frequent use of CAPITALIZED LETTERS for some reason comes off as shouting.

First off, theres a difference between Support and Obey. I dont know why you are trying to mince these words.
Support is the language the people I refer use but it occurs to me that the problem remains when you elevate it to Obey. so I think about it in context with this discussion.

Secondly, if youre asking for "What situation", id be glad to give you a dozen situations where God seemingly orders something, to which i believe we should not blindly obey, and infact resist, like most, if not all the levitical laws, for example. However, in the example you gave of your military seargents command to drop and give you 20, sure, id comply with that, as i said above, it has very little consequences. But if my military seargent commands me to, say, rape and murder a village of children, no, i would not.

Likewise, if there is a God, and these laws from the bible are infact from him, there are some things there that i would have no problem following. But God, first off, doesnt send people to heaven or forgoe punishment because someone was "Kinda" following his orders. And secondly, yes, i WOULD refuse to do what the bible claims God asked of his people, such as sacrificing my Son, or Stoning an unruly child, or forcing a rape victim to marry her rapist.

The authority that gives the order is irrelevant to whether you are justified in obedience or rebellion. I dont care if its my mother, or Barrack Obama with the US army behind his back. Either of them tells me i should rape and murder a 13 year old, im going to tell both of them to screw off. As i said above, what depends, is the order, and the consequence that follows.

So you would say what defines the order you dicide to obey or rebell depends on the degree of...disagreement I guess. if you think he/she is a little wrong or very wrong. that this is what defines the situation? I dont really want a situation specifically as much as what defines any situation one could give that needs obeying in dissagrement or rebelling. and degree of disagreement would fit that.


I am not about to argue God with you on this forum, that is not what I made it for.

Funny, despite this website being "Debate dot org".

Ill argue God with you in Forums that are for arguing about God. would you debate if we should spend goverment money on 'Solor Panal Roads' in this fourum? or would you argue that in the fourm I made for Solor Panal Roads in the science fourms or start one about goverment action for energy endipendance in the Politics forum section? You may have no need to refine your train of thought but if I dont I am liable to leave far from an initial topic if I'm not carefull. and never does me much good, It just lets me rant various things.
One act of Rebellion created all the darkness and evil in the world; One life of Total Obedience created a path back to eternity and God.

A Scout is Obedient.
tkubok
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3/19/2010 6:19:13 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/18/2010 2:44:49 PM, Marauder wrote:
I am saying grammaticaly one phasing of the sentance does not make that choice clear. I go out of my way to stress it for they are very passive people that use one phrasing of that sentance as an excuse to do things cause they cant ever change things they think are wrong, just accept and go with the flow. It is for those people that I avoid writing anything that condones there deledude idea's that there is ever not a choice.

Im sorry, and this isnt an insult, but seeing how good your grammatical skills are, i doubt your ability to be able to distinguish the grammatical differences. Both phrases have the possibilities of obey or rebellion, and this is what you fail to understand. For example, just because he is in charge BECAUSE i obeyed, doesnt mean i will KEEP obeying. Nor does it mean i will KEEP obeying just because he is in charge, as well. This is the SIMILARITY that you seem to fail to grasp.

Since you seem to get this from etheir way its phrased I wouldnt imagine that it would concern you. believe it or not we are on the same page hear.

Okay.

frequent use of CAPITALIZED LETTERS for some reason comes off as shouting.
No no, capitalization is used for emphasis on a specific letter as well. I would use Bold, but it keeps moving me to the top of my post, to which i have to scroll back down, so i just use capitals instead.

Support is the language the people I refer use but it occurs to me that the problem remains when you elevate it to Obey. so I think about it in context with this discussion.

The difference between Support and Obey, is this.

I can support a decision, and obey the commands given.

I can obey the commands given, but not support the decision.

So you would say what defines the order you dicide to obey or rebell depends on the degree of...disagreement I guess. if you think he/she is a little wrong or very wrong. that this is what defines the situation? I dont really want a situation specifically as much as what defines any situation one could give that needs obeying in dissagrement or rebelling. and degree of disagreement would fit that.

No, not the degree of disagreement, the degree of consequence resulting from the action. That is different from the degree of disagreement.

Ill argue God with you in Forums that are for arguing about God. would you debate if we should spend goverment money on 'Solor Panal Roads' in this fourum? or would you argue that in the fourm I made for Solor Panal Roads in the science fourms or start one about goverment action for energy endipendance in the Politics forum section? You may have no need to refine your train of thought but if I dont I am liable to leave far from an initial topic if I'm not carefull. and never does me much good, It just lets me rant various things.

Then what prevents you from arguing about God in this topic?
Immortal
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3/19/2010 10:05:34 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/16/2010 4:14:31 PM, Marauder wrote:
It seems like many on this site would treat one as a virtue and the other as bad. But I wonder, in a moral system where we have it as a given that both are vertues, how would the rest of the system work to make the balance work. They are opposites yet many cases can be given to portray one as the right thing to do. How should one determine when the moral or good action is to rebell and obedience in weak or bad, and when obedience is the good and right action and rebellion is the bad?
I would like responses better than 'let your gut tell you' if you can.

Obedience is good if it does not harm you and is in your best interest.
Rebellion is good if something harms or threatens to harm you or is not in your best interest.
Marauder
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3/19/2010 2:26:47 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/19/2010 6:19:13 AM, tkubok wrote:
At 3/18/2010 2:44:49 PM, Marauder wrote:
Support is the language the people I refer use but it occurs to me that the problem remains when you elevate it to Obey. so I think about it in context with this discussion.

The difference between Support and Obey, is this.

I can support a decision, and obey the commands given.

I can obey the commands given, but not support the decision.

If I changed the topic to say 'Support and rebelion' we bumb into the same delimas, that is my point not that they are the same. How can you claim to support someone you do not agree with?


No, not the degree of disagreement, the degree of consequence resulting from the action. That is different from the degree of disagreement.
So if the order isnt hurting anybody you find the moral action is to just let it go and listen to the guy we have treated as in command.

Ill argue God with you in Forums that are for arguing about God. would you debate if we should spend goverment money on 'Solor Panal Roads' in this fourum? or would you argue that in the fourm I made for Solor Panal Roads in the science fourms or start one about goverment action for energy endipendance in the Politics forum section? You may have no need to refine your train of thought but if I dont I am liable to leave far from an initial topic if I'm not carefull. and never does me much good, It just lets me rant various things.

Then what prevents you from arguing about God in this topic?

Because it is distracting. and I already argue about God in the other topics, with you most of time in fact.
One act of Rebellion created all the darkness and evil in the world; One life of Total Obedience created a path back to eternity and God.

A Scout is Obedient.
Marauder
Posts: 3,271
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3/19/2010 2:29:59 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/19/2010 10:05:34 AM, Immortal wrote:
At 3/16/2010 4:14:31 PM, Marauder wrote:
It seems like many on this site would treat one as a virtue and the other as bad. But I wonder, in a moral system where we have it as a given that both are vertues, how would the rest of the system work to make the balance work. They are opposites yet many cases can be given to portray one as the right thing to do. How should one determine when the moral or good action is to rebell and obedience in weak or bad, and when obedience is the good and right action and rebellion is the bad?
I would like responses better than 'let your gut tell you' if you can.

Obedience is good if it does not harm you and is in your best interest.
Rebellion is good if something harms or threatens to harm you or is not in your best interest.

what if it would harm you quite a lot but it would 'heal' or do good in some way for others? or simply keep harm from them? is it moral then? are you worth less? mabey you are king like Richard Rhal and you surrender yourself to the enemy when you see it will aid the entire army, or people of a city under seige.
One act of Rebellion created all the darkness and evil in the world; One life of Total Obedience created a path back to eternity and God.

A Scout is Obedient.
Immortal
Posts: 350
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3/19/2010 3:54:25 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/19/2010 2:29:59 PM, Marauder wrote:

Obedience is good if it does not harm you and is in your best interest.
Rebellion is good if something harms or threatens to harm you or is not in your best interest.

what if it would harm you quite a lot but it would 'heal' or do good in some way for others? or simply keep harm from them? is it moral then? are you worth less? mabey you are king like Richard Rhal and you surrender yourself to the enemy when you see it will aid the entire army, or people of a city under seige.

Is sacrificing yourself in your best interest? Do you think you should do it? If so, then you should. But if you don't think so, then don't do it.