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1960's Spain was awesome (come at me)

TrasguTravieso
Posts: 93
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9/2/2014 6:05:19 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
"En estos d"as, llenos de significado cristiano, frente a la crisis de espiritualidad que el mundo sufre y la ola de materialismo que invade el Universo, es para nosotros una grata satisfacci"n moral la de reafirmarnos en el car"cter cat"lico de nuestro Estado. Esto es dif"cil de comprender en el exterior, ya que rara ser" la naci"n que pueda establecer con nosotros una analog"a. No significa ello confusi"n alguna. Somos conscientes de que tanto la Iglesia como el Estado son dos sociedades perfectas, cada una en su orden, con sus propios fines: una en lo espiritual y otra en lo temporal, y, por tanto, independientes y poseedoras de sus respectivas soberan"as. Pero ambas ejercen su acci"n sobre un ambiente humano com"n, y ello implica necesariamente unas relaciones habituales entre ambos poderes...
Nuestra unidad cat"lica, la m"s preciosa joya moral de nuestro pueblo, es, por tanto, una realidad p"blicamente proclamada, y as" ten"a que ser, pues el Estado, en un pa"s cat"lico, tiene el deber de mantener y profesar p"blicamente la religi"n de sus ciudadanos."
Caudillo de Espa"a, don Francisco Franco. Mensaje de Fin de A"o del a"o 1963 al pueblo espa"ol.

---

"In these days, full of Christian significance, faced with the spiritual crisis that the world suffers and the wave of materialism that invades the Universe, it is for us a great moral satisfaction to reafirm ourselves in the Catholic character of our State. This is difficult to understand outside of Spain, as would be rare to find a nation that could establish some analogy with ours. It does not signify any confusion. We are conscious that both the Church and the State are perfect societies, each one in its order, with its own ends: one in the spiritual realm and the other in the temporal, and, as a consequence, they are independent and have their own respective sovereignties. But both exercise their action in a common human milieu, and that necessarily implies habitual relations between both powers...
Our Catholic unity, the most precious moral jewel of our people, is, therefore, a publicly proclaimed reality, and as it should be, for the State, in a Catholic country, has the duty to maintain and publicly profess the religion of its citizens."

-Caudillo of Spain, don Francisco Franco. New Year's message for 1963 to the Spanish people.
bulproof
Posts: 25,227
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9/2/2014 6:07:42 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/2/2014 6:05:19 AM, TrasguTravieso wrote:
"En estos d"as, llenos de significado cristiano, frente a la crisis de espiritualidad que el mundo sufre y la ola de materialismo que invade el Universo, es para nosotros una grata satisfacci"n moral la de reafirmarnos en el car"cter cat"lico de nuestro Estado. Esto es dif"cil de comprender en el exterior, ya que rara ser" la naci"n que pueda establecer con nosotros una analog"a. No significa ello confusi"n alguna. Somos conscientes de que tanto la Iglesia como el Estado son dos sociedades perfectas, cada una en su orden, con sus propios fines: una en lo espiritual y otra en lo temporal, y, por tanto, independientes y poseedoras de sus respectivas soberan"as. Pero ambas ejercen su acci"n sobre un ambiente humano com"n, y ello implica necesariamente unas relaciones habituales entre ambos poderes...
Nuestra unidad cat"lica, la m"s preciosa joya moral de nuestro pueblo, es, por tanto, una realidad p"blicamente proclamada, y as" ten"a que ser, pues el Estado, en un pa"s cat"lico, tiene el deber de mantener y profesar p"blicamente la religi"n de sus ciudadanos."
Caudillo de Espa"a, don Francisco Franco. Mensaje de Fin de A"o del a"o 1963 al pueblo espa"ol.

---

"In these days, full of Christian significance, faced with the spiritual crisis that the world suffers and the wave of materialism that invades the Universe, it is for us a great moral satisfaction to reafirm ourselves in the Catholic character of our State. This is difficult to understand outside of Spain, as would be rare to find a nation that could establish some analogy with ours. It does not signify any confusion. We are conscious that both the Church and the State are perfect societies, each one in its order, with its own ends: one in the spiritual realm and the other in the temporal, and, as a consequence, they are independent and have their own respective sovereignties. But both exercise their action in a common human milieu, and that necessarily implies habitual relations between both powers...
Our Catholic unity, the most precious moral jewel of our people, is, therefore, a publicly proclaimed reality, and as it should be, for the State, in a Catholic country, has the duty to maintain and publicly profess the religion of its citizens."

-Caudillo of Spain, don Francisco Franco. New Year's message for 1963 to the Spanish people.

Catholicism =/= morality.
/thread
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
TrasguTravieso
Posts: 93
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9/2/2014 6:25:06 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/2/2014 6:07:42 AM, bulproof wrote:
Catholicism =/= morality.
/thread

Granted. Catholicism is much more than morality.
bulproof
Posts: 25,227
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9/2/2014 6:29:49 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/2/2014 6:25:06 AM, TrasguTravieso wrote:
At 9/2/2014 6:07:42 AM, bulproof wrote:
Catholicism =/= morality.
/thread

Granted. Catholicism is much more than morality.

Much much less. Look to emeritus ratzinger.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
TrasguTravieso
Posts: 93
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9/2/2014 6:31:51 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/2/2014 6:29:49 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 9/2/2014 6:25:06 AM, TrasguTravieso wrote:
At 9/2/2014 6:07:42 AM, bulproof wrote:
Catholicism =/= morality.
/thread

Granted. Catholicism is much more than morality.

Much much less. Look to emeritus ratzinger.

Not only do I look at him, I look to him for moral guidance. What I don't usually do is take groundless claims against his person as law. In any case, following your penchant for equations: Catholicism =/= individual Catholics
Rasputin45
Posts: 35
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9/2/2014 6:36:12 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/2/2014 6:05:19 AM, TrasguTravieso wrote:
"En estos d"as, llenos de significado cristiano, frente a la crisis de espiritualidad que el mundo sufre y la ola de materialismo que invade el Universo, es para nosotros una grata satisfacci"n moral la de reafirmarnos en el car"cter cat"lico de nuestro Estado. Esto es dif"cil de comprender en el exterior, ya que rara ser" la naci"n que pueda establecer con nosotros una analog"a. No significa ello confusi"n alguna. Somos conscientes de que tanto la Iglesia como el Estado son dos sociedades perfectas, cada una en su orden, con sus propios fines: una en lo espiritual y otra en lo temporal, y, por tanto, independientes y poseedoras de sus respectivas soberan"as. Pero ambas ejercen su acci"n sobre un ambiente humano com"n, y ello implica necesariamente unas relaciones habituales entre ambos poderes...
Nuestra unidad cat"lica, la m"s preciosa joya moral de nuestro pueblo, es, por tanto, una realidad p"blicamente proclamada, y as" ten"a que ser, pues el Estado, en un pa"s cat"lico, tiene el deber de mantener y profesar p"blicamente la religi"n de sus ciudadanos."
Caudillo de Espa"a, don Francisco Franco. Mensaje de Fin de A"o del a"o 1963 al pueblo espa"ol.

---

"In these days, full of Christian significance, faced with the spiritual crisis that the world suffers and the wave of materialism that invades the Universe, it is for us a great moral satisfaction to reafirm ourselves in the Catholic character of our State. This is difficult to understand outside of Spain, as would be rare to find a nation that could establish some analogy with ours. It does not signify any confusion. We are conscious that both the Church and the State are perfect societies, each one in its order, with its own ends: one in the spiritual realm and the other in the temporal, and, as a consequence, they are independent and have their own respective sovereignties. But both exercise their action in a common human milieu, and that necessarily implies habitual relations between both powers...
Our Catholic unity, the most precious moral jewel of our people, is, therefore, a publicly proclaimed reality, and as it should be, for the State, in a Catholic country, has the duty to maintain and publicly profess the religion of its citizens."

-Caudillo of Spain, don Francisco Franco. New Year's message for 1963 to the Spanish people.

1960 was a time when Spain was under a Fascist dictatorship. Non-Government trade unions and opposing political forces were suppressed or control, with police repression as well. Franco had his own personality cult, which made him out to be divine and the saviour of the people when it came to chaos and poverty. Franco was a military man, "Franco had spent his life as a professional soldier, and his conception of society was along military lines." This meant that the social policy was one that while guaranteed jobs didn't give much laboural freedom.

As for Religion, Franco used that to control the masses so it wasn't a benefit. All civil marriages were unrecognised without authorisation by the church, Divorce was illegal, Propoganda was used to encourage women back into a traditional role and they could not be judges or testify in court. This is religion at an extreme end of wrong, when state can be authoritarian using the belief of its people and when the church can make its doctrine law.

http://en.wikipedia.org...
http://countrystudies.us...
Grigori Rasputin (James FRJ Hall)
Untertan des "bersicht. Hageln Sie ihm!

http://skepticsannotatedbible.com...
bulproof
Posts: 25,227
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9/2/2014 6:40:32 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/2/2014 6:31:51 AM, TrasguTravieso wrote:
At 9/2/2014 6:29:49 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 9/2/2014 6:25:06 AM, TrasguTravieso wrote:
At 9/2/2014 6:07:42 AM, bulproof wrote:
Catholicism =/= morality.
/thread

Granted. Catholicism is much more than morality.

Much much less. Look to emeritus ratzinger.

Not only do I look at him, I look to him for moral guidance. What I don't usually do is take groundless claims against his person as law. In any case, following your penchant for equations: Catholicism =/= individual Catholics

Now that is a cop out. You do remember ratzinger? Do you?
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
annanicole
Posts: 19,785
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9/2/2014 6:57:22 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/2/2014 6:05:19 AM, TrasguTravieso wrote:
"En estos d"as, llenos de significado cristiano, frente a la crisis de espiritualidad que el mundo sufre y la ola de materialismo que invade el Universo, es para nosotros una grata satisfacci"n moral la de reafirmarnos en el car"cter cat"lico de nuestro Estado. Esto es dif"cil de comprender en el exterior, ya que rara ser" la naci"n que pueda establecer con nosotros una analog"a. No significa ello confusi"n alguna. Somos conscientes de que tanto la Iglesia como el Estado son dos sociedades perfectas, cada una en su orden, con sus propios fines: una en lo espiritual y otra en lo temporal, y, por tanto, independientes y poseedoras de sus respectivas soberan"as. Pero ambas ejercen su acci"n sobre un ambiente humano com"n, y ello implica necesariamente unas relaciones habituales entre ambos poderes...
Nuestra unidad cat"lica, la m"s preciosa joya moral de nuestro pueblo, es, por tanto, una realidad p"blicamente proclamada, y as" ten"a que ser, pues el Estado, en un pa"s cat"lico, tiene el deber de mantener y profesar p"blicamente la religi"n de sus ciudadanos."
Caudillo de Espa"a, don Francisco Franco. Mensaje de Fin de A"o del a"o 1963 al pueblo espa"ol.

---

"In these days, full of Christian significance, faced with the spiritual crisis that the world suffers and the wave of materialism that invades the Universe, it is for us a great moral satisfaction to reafirm ourselves in the Catholic character of our State. This is difficult to understand outside of Spain, as would be rare to find a nation that could establish some analogy with ours. It does not signify any confusion. We are conscious that both the Church and the State are perfect societies, each one in its order, with its own ends: one in the spiritual realm and the other in the temporal, and, as a consequence, they are independent and have their own respective sovereignties. But both exercise their action in a common human milieu, and that necessarily implies habitual relations between both powers...
Our Catholic unity, the most precious moral jewel of our people, is, therefore, a publicly proclaimed reality, and as it should be, for the State, in a Catholic country, has the duty to maintain and publicly profess the religion of its citizens."

-Caudillo of Spain, don Francisco Franco. New Year's message for 1963 to the Spanish people.

Spain has been for decades a Catholic nightmare. It is usually held up as the most horrific example of what Catholics anywhere and everywhere will do if they ever get into a nice majority. Away with freedom of speech, of the press, of religion, of assembly!
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
TrasguTravieso
Posts: 93
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9/2/2014 7:32:19 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/2/2014 6:57:22 AM, annanicole wrote:
Spain has been for decades a Catholic nightmare. It is usually held up as the most horrific example of what Catholics anywhere and everywhere will do if they ever get into a nice majority. Away with freedom of speech, of the press, of religion, of assembly!

Decades? Make that centuries. A nightmare for the wicked, the hammer of heretics and sword of Rome. Error has no rights!! Yay!!
TrasguTravieso
Posts: 93
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9/2/2014 7:32:22 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/2/2014 6:36:12 AM, Rasputin45 wrote:
1960 was a time when Spain was under a Fascist dictatorship. Non-Government trade unions and opposing political forces were suppressed or control, with police repression as well. Franco had his own personality cult, which made him out to be divine and the saviour of the people when it came to chaos and poverty. Franco was a military man, "Franco had spent his life as a professional soldier, and his conception of society was along military lines." This meant that the social policy was one that while guaranteed jobs didn't give much laboural freedom.

As for Religion, Franco used that to control the masses so it wasn't a benefit. All civil marriages were unrecognised without authorisation by the church, Divorce was illegal, Propoganda was used to encourage women back into a traditional role and they could not be judges or testify in court. This is religion at an extreme end of wrong, when state can be authoritarian using the belief of its people and when the church can make its doctrine law.

http://en.wikipedia.org...
http://countrystudies.us...

Fascists wish everything to be under the controll of the State, this speech is proof positive that was not the regime's philosophy, which puts the Church and the State on equal grounding although in different and complementary spheres, cannot be correctly described as fascist. It was an authoritarian Catholic dictatorship.

Divorce was illegal, as it should be, civil marriage was actually permitted from 1963 on, but not common, women could testify in court and were not barred from the judicature (although as in most countries this was not common, they were encouraged to assume traditional roles, but calling that propaganda is simply a value judgment on traditional roles. It is Spain back to what it had always been, barring an unfortunate interlude between 1931-1936/9.
TrasguTravieso
Posts: 93
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9/2/2014 7:32:25 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/2/2014 6:40:32 AM, bulproof wrote:

Now that is a cop out. You do remember ratzinger? Do you?

Nope, simple logic. A religion cannot be judged by the fact that some who adcribe to it do not follow its teachings. The Catholic faith is the one true faith and is the only sure road to salvation, hence deviating from that norm is opposed to morality and right reason.
annanicole
Posts: 19,785
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9/2/2014 7:39:11 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/2/2014 7:32:19 AM, TrasguTravieso wrote:
At 9/2/2014 6:57:22 AM, annanicole wrote:
Spain has been for decades a Catholic nightmare. It is usually held up as the most horrific example of what Catholics anywhere and everywhere will do if they ever get into a nice majority. Away with freedom of speech, of the press, of religion, of assembly!

Decades? Make that centuries. A nightmare for the wicked, the hammer of heretics and sword of Rome. Error has no rights!! Yay!!

Spain was and is a dream-come-true for the wicked. It's a 3rd-rate country nowadays, held back by a hideous sociopolitical "religion".
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
bulproof
Posts: 25,227
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9/2/2014 7:42:40 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/2/2014 7:39:11 AM, annanicole wrote:
At 9/2/2014 7:32:19 AM, TrasguTravieso wrote:
At 9/2/2014 6:57:22 AM, annanicole wrote:
Spain has been for decades a Catholic nightmare. It is usually held up as the most horrific example of what Catholics anywhere and everywhere will do if they ever get into a nice majority. Away with freedom of speech, of the press, of religion, of assembly!

Decades? Make that centuries. A nightmare for the wicked, the hammer of heretics and sword of Rome. Error has no rights!! Yay!!

Spain was and is a dream-come-true for the wicked. It's a 3rd-rate country nowadays, held back by a hideous sociopolitical "religion".

That sounds like yoosa.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
TrasguTravieso
Posts: 93
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9/2/2014 7:43:38 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/2/2014 7:39:11 AM, annanicole wrote:

Spain was and is a dream-come-true for the wicked. It's a 3rd-rate country nowadays, held back by a hideous sociopolitical "religion".

Held back by its general rejection of that same religion when something more than sociological. It was a dream come true for art and the defense of truth both against the spread of heresy and against the mohommedan hordes which people are now so surprised about. The 16th century was a good one. :)
annanicole
Posts: 19,785
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9/2/2014 7:46:15 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/2/2014 7:43:38 AM, TrasguTravieso wrote:
At 9/2/2014 7:39:11 AM, annanicole wrote:

Spain was and is a dream-come-true for the wicked. It's a 3rd-rate country nowadays, held back by a hideous sociopolitical "religion".

Held back by its general rejection of that same religion when something more than sociological. It was a dream come true for art and the defense of truth both against the spread of heresy and against the mohommedan hordes which people are now so surprised about. The 16th century was a good one. :)

Absolutely, judging by the astronomical acceptance of Protestantism.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
Rasputin45
Posts: 35
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9/2/2014 7:57:36 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/2/2014 7:32:22 AM, TrasguTravieso wrote:
At 9/2/2014 6:36:12 AM, Rasputin45 wrote:
1960 was a time when Spain was under a Fascist dictatorship. Non-Government trade unions and opposing political forces were suppressed or control, with police repression as well. Franco had his own personality cult, which made him out to be divine and the saviour of the people when it came to chaos and poverty. Franco was a military man, "Franco had spent his life as a professional soldier, and his conception of society was along military lines." This meant that the social policy was one that while guaranteed jobs didn't give much laboural freedom.

As for Religion, Franco used that to control the masses so it wasn't a benefit. All civil marriages were unrecognised without authorisation by the church, Divorce was illegal, Propoganda was used to encourage women back into a traditional role and they could not be judges or testify in court. This is religion at an extreme end of wrong, when state can be authoritarian using the belief of its people and when the church can make its doctrine law.

http://en.wikipedia.org...
http://countrystudies.us...

Fascists wish everything to be under the controll of the State,

Not Exactly. What you described was state ownership, or Chinese Communism. Definitions of Fascism usually describe a dictator in control.[1][2] If the Church were to go against Franco, he would do what he can to suppress them. If the church could sway the people first then he's fucked, but if he could change the Church officials first then he wins.

this speech is proof positive that was not the regime's philosophy, which puts the Church and the State on equal grounding although in different and complementary spheres, cannot be correctly described as fascist. It was an authoritarian Catholic dictatorship.

I did say the Church doctrine became law but it was more likely because Franco willed it not because the Church willed it.


Divorce was illegal, as it should be

Even if the two people in the partnership no longer wish to be together? You might say they can stay apart they just have to stay married but what if they want to marry another person? What if one party found out the other was adulterous?

, civil marriage was actually permitted from 1963 on, but not common, women could testify in court and were not barred from the judicature

"it was forbidden to exert liberal professions such as state lawyers, notaries, judges..."[3]

(although as in most countries this was not common, they were encouraged to assume traditional roles, but calling that propaganda is simply a value judgment on traditional roles.

It wasn't 'Simply a value Judgment'
"Official propaganda confined her role to family care and motherhood." This was from wikipedia. I could not find a cited source so I will drop that argument but all the same.

It is Spain back to what it had always been, barring an unfortunate interlude between 1931-1936/9.

You claimed that 1960s Spain was awesome, but a Fascist...I mean Authoritarian Catholic Dictatorship does not sound that awesome in hindsight.

http://dictionary.reference.com...[1]
http://www.merriam-webster.com...[2]
http://www.estelacantabra.com...[3]
Grigori Rasputin (James FRJ Hall)
Untertan des "bersicht. Hageln Sie ihm!

http://skepticsannotatedbible.com...
bulproof
Posts: 25,227
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9/2/2014 8:00:24 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
I must admit that I love the christians telling the other christians how wrong.

Especially the christians who are heretical versions of the original christianity , catholicism.

It is hilarious.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
Rasputin45
Posts: 35
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9/2/2014 8:04:55 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/2/2014 8:00:24 AM, bulproof wrote:
I must admit that I love the christians telling the other christians how wrong.

Especially the christians who are heretical versions of the original christianity , catholicism.

It is hilarious.

There are bound to be Christians who use an ad populam fallacy as an argument. If only they realised how split the religion is...
Grigori Rasputin (James FRJ Hall)
Untertan des "bersicht. Hageln Sie ihm!

http://skepticsannotatedbible.com...