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How did God get his name?

Arasa
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9/5/2014 9:41:16 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/5/2014 9:10:55 PM, dee-em wrote:
If God is eternal and created the universe, who was he a god to before the universe existed?

the concept of "before" is very crucial here. Why? Because before God created time, there was no time. In terms of time, there was none before it began. However, in the "Eternal Past" as many theologians would put it- that is, the timeless place of God's dwelling, there is no before or after, because the time by which you are basing your question off of did not exist prior to God.

August Rasa, a 4:53 mind
dee-em
Posts: 6,444
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9/5/2014 9:49:16 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/5/2014 9:41:16 PM, Arasa wrote:
At 9/5/2014 9:10:55 PM, dee-em wrote:
If God is eternal and created the universe, who was he a god to before the universe existed?

the concept of "before" is very crucial here. Why? Because before God created time, there was no time. In terms of time, there was none before it began. However, in the "Eternal Past" as many theologians would put it- that is, the timeless place of God's dwelling, there is no before or after, because the time by which you are basing your question off of did not exist prior to God.

August Rasa, a 4:53 mind

Okay, in this eternal past and timeless place in which he dwelt, who was he God to?
mr_burns
Posts: 14
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9/5/2014 9:59:59 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/5/2014 9:10:55 PM, dee-em wrote:
If God is eternal and created the universe, who was he a god to before the universe existed?

I know what god stands for.......(genetic. observers. of dimensions )

GOD. G.O.D
Double_R
Posts: 4,886
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9/5/2014 10:10:39 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/5/2014 9:41:16 PM, Arasa wrote:
At 9/5/2014 9:10:55 PM, dee-em wrote:
If God is eternal and created the universe, who was he a god to before the universe existed?

the concept of "before" is very crucial here. Why? Because before God created time, there was no time.

Isn't creation necessarily a temporal event?
dee-em
Posts: 6,444
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9/6/2014 1:34:05 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
A related question given that God is defined as being omniscient (all knowing):

In this eternal past and timeless place in which God dwelt, what did God know? What was there to know?
Arasa
Posts: 380
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9/6/2014 5:02:00 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/5/2014 9:49:16 PM, dee-em wrote:
At 9/5/2014 9:41:16 PM, Arasa wrote:
At 9/5/2014 9:10:55 PM, dee-em wrote:
If God is eternal and created the universe, who was he a god to before the universe existed?

the concept of "before" is very crucial here. Why? Because before God created time, there was no time. In terms of time, there was none before it began. However, in the "Eternal Past" as many theologians would put it- that is, the timeless place of God's dwelling, there is no before or after, because the time by which you are basing your question off of did not exist prior to God.

August Rasa, a 4:53 mind

Okay, in this eternal past and timeless place in which he dwelt, who was he God to?

To say that God must be God over something is to also say that God is dependent on necessity- existing conditionally based on need. This is not so. God need not be God over anything in order to exist. Quite the contrary.

August Rasa, a 4:53 mind
Arasa
Posts: 380
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9/6/2014 5:04:52 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/5/2014 10:10:39 PM, Double_R wrote:
At 9/5/2014 9:41:16 PM, Arasa wrote:
At 9/5/2014 9:10:55 PM, dee-em wrote:
If God is eternal and created the universe, who was he a god to before the universe existed?

the concept of "before" is very crucial here. Why? Because before God created time, there was no time.

Isn't creation necessarily a temporal event?

Creation was necessarily a temporal event. When God created the universe, He created time as well. Now, the issue of time comes down to the question of "Well, what is time?". There are numerous theories out there, which is why the issue of time in relation to anything is a difficult problem to approach for even the non-religious.

So, to summarize, creation included the creation of the temporal as well.

August Rasa, 4:53 mind
Double_R
Posts: 4,886
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9/6/2014 5:46:28 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/6/2014 5:04:52 PM, Arasa wrote:
At 9/5/2014 10:10:39 PM, Double_R wrote:
At 9/5/2014 9:41:16 PM, Arasa wrote:
At 9/5/2014 9:10:55 PM, dee-em wrote:
If God is eternal and created the universe, who was he a god to before the universe existed?

the concept of "before" is very crucial here. Why? Because before God created time, there was no time.

Isn't creation necessarily a temporal event?

Creation was necessarily a temporal event. When God created the universe, He created time as well. Now, the issue of time comes down to the question of "Well, what is time?". There are numerous theories out there, which is why the issue of time in relation to anything is a difficult problem to approach for even the non-religious.

So, to summarize, creation included the creation of the temporal as well.

August Rasa, 4:53 mind

You answered the question, but failed to address the problem.

You say God created the temporal. Yet creation is necessarily temporal. You cannot create something if there is no time, for that is a logically contradictory concept. Yet if time already existed then he didn't create it. It's one or the other.

Or of course you can just say God did it and leave it at that.
Dragonfang
Posts: 1,122
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9/6/2014 6:07:49 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Why are you treating an eternal entity as a temporal being? He doesn't pass through time like our perspective; to him everything is already done.
Arasa
Posts: 380
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9/6/2014 6:46:24 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/6/2014 5:46:28 PM, Double_R wrote:
At 9/6/2014 5:04:52 PM, Arasa wrote:
At 9/5/2014 10:10:39 PM, Double_R wrote:
At 9/5/2014 9:41:16 PM, Arasa wrote:
At 9/5/2014 9:10:55 PM, dee-em wrote:
If God is eternal and created the universe, who was he a god to before the universe existed?

the concept of "before" is very crucial here. Why? Because before God created time, there was no time.

Isn't creation necessarily a temporal event?

Creation was necessarily a temporal event. When God created the universe, He created time as well. Now, the issue of time comes down to the question of "Well, what is time?". There are numerous theories out there, which is why the issue of time in relation to anything is a difficult problem to approach for even the non-religious.

So, to summarize, creation included the creation of the temporal as well.

August Rasa, 4:53 mind

You answered the question, but failed to address the problem.

You say God created the temporal. Yet creation is necessarily temporal. You cannot create something if there is no time, for that is a logically contradictory concept. Yet if time already existed then he didn't create it. It's one or the other.

Or of course you can just say God did it and leave it at that.

How very astute of you, Double_R. You are correct that the question of time remains. However, the answer cannot be given unless one understands the nature of time. "What exactly is time?" is still a vexing question. It could be that time does not exist, merely change. If nothing changes (or moves, as that would be a change in location. Basically, if everything stopped) then time itself has stopped. Time could merely be the word we give to change in relation to another change (i.e. a heartbeat, or a 24-hour clock). If scientists had decided to make a timely second equal what we now know as 37 seconds, then that would be that, and each second would still only be a second long, but in a different manner than what we today agree is a second.

Time is extremely complicated, and this is only one possible answer to it. To fit this into the creation story would be simple: God creates matter, then a constant change. This particular theory delves into some deep interpretation (To which I have not personally staked any claim in it, but it is one of the more interesting theories that I have heard), as "Let there be light" could be interpreted to energy, which is a constant change. In that sense, time is a change measured and continued by energy.

Like I said, it's all very complicated. The theories involving the nature of time vary greatly, and many are good for a laugh or two. I cannot state with any degree of certainty, the nature of time, except to say that God was/is before it, and created it, and is/will be after it has ceased.

Post-note: Was your parthian shot really necessary? Your response would have been equally if not more intelligent without it.
August Rasa, a 4:53 mind
Double_R
Posts: 4,886
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9/6/2014 7:51:29 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/6/2014 6:46:24 PM, Arasa wrote:
At 9/6/2014 5:46:28 PM, Double_R wrote:
At 9/6/2014 5:04:52 PM, Arasa wrote:
At 9/5/2014 10:10:39 PM, Double_R wrote:
At 9/5/2014 9:41:16 PM, Arasa wrote:
At 9/5/2014 9:10:55 PM, dee-em wrote:
If God is eternal and created the universe, who was he a god to before the universe existed?

the concept of "before" is very crucial here. Why? Because before God created time, there was no time.

Isn't creation necessarily a temporal event?

Creation was necessarily a temporal event. When God created the universe, He created time as well. Now, the issue of time comes down to the question of "Well, what is time?". There are numerous theories out there, which is why the issue of time in relation to anything is a difficult problem to approach for even the non-religious.

So, to summarize, creation included the creation of the temporal as well.

August Rasa, 4:53 mind

You answered the question, but failed to address the problem.

You say God created the temporal. Yet creation is necessarily temporal. You cannot create something if there is no time, for that is a logically contradictory concept. Yet if time already existed then he didn't create it. It's one or the other.

Or of course you can just say God did it and leave it at that.

How very astute of you, Double_R. You are correct that the question of time remains. However, the answer cannot be given unless one understands the nature of time. "What exactly is time?" is still a vexing question. It could be that time does not exist, merely change. If nothing changes (or moves, as that would be a change in location. Basically, if everything stopped) then time itself has stopped. Time could merely be the word we give to change in relation to another change (i.e. a heartbeat, or a 24-hour clock). If scientists had decided to make a timely second equal what we now know as 37 seconds, then that would be that, and each second would still only be a second long, but in a different manner than what we today agree is a second.

Time is extremely complicated, and this is only one possible answer to it. To fit this into the creation story would be simple: God creates matter, then a constant change. This particular theory delves into some deep interpretation (To which I have not personally staked any claim in it, but it is one of the more interesting theories that I have heard), as "Let there be light" could be interpreted to energy, which is a constant change. In that sense, time is a change measured and continued by energy.

Like I said, it's all very complicated. The theories involving the nature of time vary greatly, and many are good for a laugh or two. I cannot state with any degree of certainty, the nature of time, except to say that God was/is before it, and created it, and is/will be after it has ceased.

Post-note: Was your parthian shot really necessary? Your response would have been equally if not more intelligent without it.
August Rasa, a 4:53 mind

The "Parthian shot" was thrown in at the end in the hopes of avoiding the very thing you just did. Although you throw out a theory of what time could be you still seem to recognize that you can't possibly answer the question. Yet you still proclaim a degree of certainty that God "was/is before it, and created it, and is/will be after it has ceased". This is exactly the problem. You make claims that you can't possibly provide a reasonable justification for, then when this is pointed out you go on to accept that you have no reasonable justification but stand by your claim anyway. This is the point where all hope of intelligent discussion is lost.
bladerunner060
Posts: 7,126
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9/6/2014 8:01:42 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/5/2014 9:10:55 PM, dee-em wrote:
If God is eternal and created the universe, who was he a god to before the universe existed?

Well, far be it from me to answer for the theists out there, but isn't his name "ehyeh asher ehyeh", or "I am that I am"?

God is a title.

Also, does a God have to be a God TO someone/thing?

The Greeks though that Chaos came first, then Gaea, then Gaea made things (IIRC, my ancient Greek pantheon may be a little rusty).

I'm not sure the purpose of the question, really, though obviously it wasn't aimed at me....
Assistant moderator to airmax1227. PM me with any questions or concerns!
Arasa
Posts: 380
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9/6/2014 8:58:07 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/6/2014 7:51:29 PM, Double_R wrote:
At 9/6/2014 6:46:24 PM, Arasa wrote:
At 9/6/2014 5:46:28 PM, Double_R wrote:
At 9/6/2014 5:04:52 PM, Arasa wrote:
At 9/5/2014 10:10:39 PM, Double_R wrote:
At 9/5/2014 9:41:16 PM, Arasa wrote:
At 9/5/2014 9:10:55 PM, dee-em wrote:
If God is eternal and created the universe, who was he a god to before the universe existed?

the concept of "before" is very crucial here. Why? Because before God created time, there was no time.

Isn't creation necessarily a temporal event?

Creation was necessarily a temporal event. When God created the universe, He created time as well. Now, the issue of time comes down to the question of "Well, what is time?". There are numerous theories out there, which is why the issue of time in relation to anything is a difficult problem to approach for even the non-religious.

So, to summarize, creation included the creation of the temporal as well.

August Rasa, 4:53 mind

You answered the question, but failed to address the problem.

You say God created the temporal. Yet creation is necessarily temporal. You cannot create something if there is no time, for that is a logically contradictory concept. Yet if time already existed then he didn't create it. It's one or the other.

Or of course you can just say God did it and leave it at that.

How very astute of you, Double_R. You are correct that the question of time remains. However, the answer cannot be given unless one understands the nature of time. "What exactly is time?" is still a vexing question. It could be that time does not exist, merely change. If nothing changes (or moves, as that would be a change in location. Basically, if everything stopped) then time itself has stopped. Time could merely be the word we give to change in relation to another change (i.e. a heartbeat, or a 24-hour clock). If scientists had decided to make a timely second equal what we now know as 37 seconds, then that would be that, and each second would still only be a second long, but in a different manner than what we today agree is a second.

Time is extremely complicated, and this is only one possible answer to it. To fit this into the creation story would be simple: God creates matter, then a constant change. This particular theory delves into some deep interpretation (To which I have not personally staked any claim in it, but it is one of the more interesting theories that I have heard), as "Let there be light" could be interpreted to energy, which is a constant change. In that sense, time is a change measured and continued by energy.

Like I said, it's all very complicated. The theories involving the nature of time vary greatly, and many are good for a laugh or two. I cannot state with any degree of certainty, the nature of time, except to say that God was/is before it, and created it, and is/will be after it has ceased.

Post-note: Was your parthian shot really necessary? Your response would have been equally if not more intelligent without it.
August Rasa, a 4:53 mind

The "Parthian shot" was thrown in at the end in the hopes of avoiding the very thing you just did. Although you throw out a theory of what time could be you still seem to recognize that you can't possibly answer the question. Yet you still proclaim a degree of certainty that God "was/is before it, and created it, and is/will be after it has ceased". This is exactly the problem. You make claims that you can't possibly provide a reasonable justification for, then when this is pointed out you go on to accept that you have no reasonable justification but stand by your claim anyway. This is the point where all hope of intelligent discussion is lost.

I fail to see how my almost-immovable belief is grounds for unintelligent conversation. After all, you seem equally set that God does not exist. I believe that we can continue to have an intelligent discussion despite our biases. After all, no one is unbiased. But, if you feel that we cannot have an intelligent discussion due to our biases, then I understand.

Now, my belief in God is not solely dependent on the understanding of how time works. Obviously, or no one could ever be certain. My belief in God leads me to believe further things about the way that the world works. In this case, that God preceded time, that He created time, and that He will still be when time has ceased.

August Rasa, a 4:53 mind
Juan_Pablo
Posts: 2,052
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9/6/2014 9:19:19 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/5/2014 9:10:55 PM, dee-em wrote:
If God is eternal and created the universe, who was he a god to before the universe existed?

I believe God was a little piece of a colossal God before him. An event happened that tore the colossal God into pieces--and one of the pieces was God.
Arasa
Posts: 380
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9/7/2014 12:08:11 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/6/2014 9:19:19 PM, Juan_Pablo wrote:
At 9/5/2014 9:10:55 PM, dee-em wrote:
If God is eternal and created the universe, who was he a god to before the universe existed?

I believe God was a little piece of a colossal God before him. An event happened that tore the colossal God into pieces--and one of the pieces was God.

Am I correct in thinking that you are a mormon?
Juan_Pablo
Posts: 2,052
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9/7/2014 1:11:54 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/7/2014 12:08:11 AM, Arasa wrote:
At 9/6/2014 9:19:19 PM, Juan_Pablo wrote:
At 9/5/2014 9:10:55 PM, dee-em wrote:
If God is eternal and created the universe, who was he a god to before the universe existed?

I believe God was a little piece of a colossal God before him. An event happened that tore the colossal God into pieces--and one of the pieces was God.

Am I correct in thinking that you are a mormon?

I suppose there is some Mormon philosophy in this statement; technically, though, I'm not a Mormon or even a traditional Christian.
dee-em
Posts: 6,444
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9/7/2014 4:49:33 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/6/2014 5:02:00 PM, Arasa wrote:
At 9/5/2014 9:49:16 PM, dee-em wrote:

Okay, in this eternal past and timeless place in which he dwelt, who was he God to?

To say that God must be God over something is to also say that God is dependent on necessity- existing conditionally based on need. This is not so. God need not be God over anything in order to exist. Quite the contrary.

I wasn't implying anything about existence. If God is a title, then I guess God wasn't God 'before' there was anything other than Himself. It's a peculiar concept, thinking of a being with absolutely nothing else. Nothing to see, hear, smell, taste or feel. Just nothing. It would drive a human mind mad. Do you wonder if it might have driven God a little insane?
dee-em
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9/7/2014 4:56:45 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/6/2014 8:01:42 PM, bladerunner060 wrote:
At 9/5/2014 9:10:55 PM, dee-em wrote:
If God is eternal and created the universe, who was he a god to before the universe existed?

Well, far be it from me to answer for the theists out there, but isn't his name "ehyeh asher ehyeh", or "I am that I am"?

God is a title.

Also, does a God have to be a God TO someone/thing?

The Greeks though that Chaos came first, then Gaea, then Gaea made things (IIRC, my ancient Greek pantheon may be a little rusty).

I'm not sure the purpose of the question, really, though obviously it wasn't aimed at me....

I was reading an ancient text and a Greek asked this very question over 2,000 years ago. I thought it might be interesting to pose it here for discussion. :-)
dee-em
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9/7/2014 4:58:59 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/6/2014 9:19:19 PM, Juan_Pablo wrote:
At 9/5/2014 9:10:55 PM, dee-em wrote:
If God is eternal and created the universe, who was he a god to before the universe existed?

I believe God was a little piece of a colossal God before him. An event happened that tore the colossal God into pieces--and one of the pieces was God.

An event? Are you implying that there was something external to colossal God?
dee-em
Posts: 6,444
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9/7/2014 5:20:31 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/6/2014 6:46:24 PM, Arasa wrote:
At 9/6/2014 5:46:28 PM, Double_R wrote:

You answered the question, but failed to address the problem.

You say God created the temporal. Yet creation is necessarily temporal. You cannot create something if there is no time, for that is a logically contradictory concept. Yet if time already existed then he didn't create it. It's one or the other.

Or of course you can just say God did it and leave it at that.

How very astute of you, Double_R. You are correct that the question of time remains. However, the answer cannot be given unless one understands the nature of time. "What exactly is time?" is still a vexing question. It could be that time does not exist, merely change. If nothing changes (or moves, as that would be a change in location. Basically, if everything stopped) then time itself has stopped. Time could merely be the word we give to change in relation to another change (i.e. a heartbeat, or a 24-hour clock). If scientists had decided to make a timely second equal what we now know as 37 seconds, then that would be that, and each second would still only be a second long, but in a different manner than what we today agree is a second.

Time is extremely complicated, and this is only one possible answer to it. To fit this into the creation story would be simple: God creates matter, then a constant change. This particular theory delves into some deep interpretation (To which I have not personally staked any claim in it, but it is one of the more interesting theories that I have heard), as "Let there be light" could be interpreted to energy, which is a constant change. In that sense, time is a change measured and continued by energy.

Like I said, it's all very complicated. The theories involving the nature of time vary greatly, and many are good for a laugh or two. I cannot state with any degree of certainty, the nature of time, except to say that God was/is before it, and created it, and is/will be after it has ceased.

Post-note: Was your parthian shot really necessary? Your response would have been equally if not more intelligent without it.

With all due respect, you have failed to address the issue. The nature of time is irrelevant if your position is that God created time with the universe. We are talking about the act of creation itself, and that any act of creation is necessarily a temporal phenomenon. You have to explain how a temporal act does not require time. That's a contradiction, but this is the burden you have.

In your attempted explanation above you lead with "God creates matter ...". You haven't done anything except repeat the same flawed concept you started with. (Besides that it contradicts what we know of the Big Bang").
Installgentoo
Posts: 1,420
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9/7/2014 5:21:47 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/7/2014 4:49:33 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 9/6/2014 5:02:00 PM, Arasa wrote:
At 9/5/2014 9:49:16 PM, dee-em wrote:

Okay, in this eternal past and timeless place in which he dwelt, who was he God to?

To say that God must be God over something is to also say that God is dependent on necessity- existing conditionally based on need. This is not so. God need not be God over anything in order to exist. Quite the contrary.

I wasn't implying anything about existence. If God is a title, then I guess God wasn't God 'before' there was anything other than Himself. It's a peculiar concept, thinking of a being with absolutely nothing else. Nothing to see, hear, smell, taste or feel. Just nothing. It would drive a human mind mad. Do you wonder if it might have driven God a little insane?

That's an interesting line of questioning. Christians answer that by saying that before God created the universe, he related to Jesus, and Jesus' spirit, so that he wasn't "lonely" so to speak.
dee-em
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9/7/2014 5:48:52 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/7/2014 5:21:47 AM, Installgentoo wrote:
At 9/7/2014 4:49:33 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 9/6/2014 5:02:00 PM, Arasa wrote:
At 9/5/2014 9:49:16 PM, dee-em wrote:

Okay, in this eternal past and timeless place in which he dwelt, who was he God to?

To say that God must be God over something is to also say that God is dependent on necessity- existing conditionally based on need. This is not so. God need not be God over anything in order to exist. Quite the contrary.

I wasn't implying anything about existence. If God is a title, then I guess God wasn't God 'before' there was anything other than Himself. It's a peculiar concept, thinking of a being with absolutely nothing else. Nothing to see, hear, smell, taste or feel. Just nothing. It would drive a human mind mad. Do you wonder if it might have driven God a little insane?

That's an interesting line of questioning. Christians answer that by saying that before God created the universe, he related to Jesus, and Jesus' spirit, so that he wasn't "lonely" so to speak.

Talking to yourself sounds rather mad to me. :-)
Installgentoo
Posts: 1,420
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9/7/2014 5:59:11 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/7/2014 5:48:52 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 9/7/2014 5:21:47 AM, Installgentoo wrote:
At 9/7/2014 4:49:33 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 9/6/2014 5:02:00 PM, Arasa wrote:
At 9/5/2014 9:49:16 PM, dee-em wrote:

Okay, in this eternal past and timeless place in which he dwelt, who was he God to?

To say that God must be God over something is to also say that God is dependent on necessity- existing conditionally based on need. This is not so. God need not be God over anything in order to exist. Quite the contrary.

I wasn't implying anything about existence. If God is a title, then I guess God wasn't God 'before' there was anything other than Himself. It's a peculiar concept, thinking of a being with absolutely nothing else. Nothing to see, hear, smell, taste or feel. Just nothing. It would drive a human mind mad. Do you wonder if it might have driven God a little insane?

That's an interesting line of questioning. Christians answer that by saying that before God created the universe, he related to Jesus, and Jesus' spirit, so that he wasn't "lonely" so to speak.

Talking to yourself sounds rather mad to me. :-)

Jesus is not God in the Christian belief system. God is Jesus and God is the Holy Spirit. So really God is talking to different versions of himself.

Not quite the same thing.
dee-em
Posts: 6,444
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9/7/2014 6:03:30 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/7/2014 5:59:11 AM, Installgentoo wrote:
At 9/7/2014 5:48:52 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 9/7/2014 5:21:47 AM, Installgentoo wrote:
At 9/7/2014 4:49:33 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 9/6/2014 5:02:00 PM, Arasa wrote:
At 9/5/2014 9:49:16 PM, dee-em wrote:

Okay, in this eternal past and timeless place in which he dwelt, who was he God to?

To say that God must be God over something is to also say that God is dependent on necessity- existing conditionally based on need. This is not so. God need not be God over anything in order to exist. Quite the contrary.

I wasn't implying anything about existence. If God is a title, then I guess God wasn't God 'before' there was anything other than Himself. It's a peculiar concept, thinking of a being with absolutely nothing else. Nothing to see, hear, smell, taste or feel. Just nothing. It would drive a human mind mad. Do you wonder if it might have driven God a little insane?

That's an interesting line of questioning. Christians answer that by saying that before God created the universe, he related to Jesus, and Jesus' spirit, so that he wasn't "lonely" so to speak.

Talking to yourself sounds rather mad to me. :-)

Jesus is not God in the Christian belief system. God is Jesus and God is the Holy Spirit. So really God is talking to different versions of himself.

Not quite the same thing.

Whatever you say. I'm sure it makes sense to you. The rest of us just scratch our heads. Sorry.
Installgentoo
Posts: 1,420
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9/7/2014 6:04:53 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/7/2014 6:03:30 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 9/7/2014 5:59:11 AM, Installgentoo wrote:
At 9/7/2014 5:48:52 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 9/7/2014 5:21:47 AM, Installgentoo wrote:
At 9/7/2014 4:49:33 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 9/6/2014 5:02:00 PM, Arasa wrote:
At 9/5/2014 9:49:16 PM, dee-em wrote:

Okay, in this eternal past and timeless place in which he dwelt, who was he God to?

To say that God must be God over something is to also say that God is dependent on necessity- existing conditionally based on need. This is not so. God need not be God over anything in order to exist. Quite the contrary.

I wasn't implying anything about existence. If God is a title, then I guess God wasn't God 'before' there was anything other than Himself. It's a peculiar concept, thinking of a being with absolutely nothing else. Nothing to see, hear, smell, taste or feel. Just nothing. It would drive a human mind mad. Do you wonder if it might have driven God a little insane?

That's an interesting line of questioning. Christians answer that by saying that before God created the universe, he related to Jesus, and Jesus' spirit, so that he wasn't "lonely" so to speak.

Talking to yourself sounds rather mad to me. :-)

Jesus is not God in the Christian belief system. God is Jesus and God is the Holy Spirit. So really God is talking to different versions of himself.

Not quite the same thing.

Whatever you say. I'm sure it makes sense to you. The rest of us just scratch our heads. Sorry.

I'm not a Christian, I'm an agnostic.
Brad_Watson.Miami
Posts: 158
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9/7/2014 6:18:15 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/5/2014 9:10:55 PM, dee-em wrote:
If God is eternal and created the universe, who was he a god to before the universe existed?
dee-em,

"This universe's Big Bang (supermassive white hole) ~13.82 billion years ago was the result of a supermassive black hole in another universe. That SBH & this universe share the same event horizon." - Seal #1: The Conglomerate of Non-Parallel Universes Theory (Universe Creation Theory) http://7Seals.blogspot.com... .

GOD: the 'system as a whole'/the 'universal quantum computer'.

God-incarnate ('God-guy' in the Guardin' of Eden, Jesus son of Joseph, 2nd Coming of the Christ): the original and number 1 programmer/the Creator of all true Earth-like plan-its. See http://PlanetNestor.blogspot.com... .

"God is Good", GOD=GOOD

GOD=7_4
Earth has 7 continents & 4 seasons, ('7 Seas') & 4 oceans, 74% of Earth's surface is water. 4 lunar phases of 7 days (~7.4 days) each, etc. See http://GOD704.wikia.com... .
GOD=7_4, 7/4=July 4th or 7 April 30 AD: Good(7__4) Friday(74) when Jesus(74=J10+E5+S19+U21+S19) was nailed on(74) the Cross(74=C3+R18+O15+S19+S19).

GOD=7_4 algorithm/code produces Earth's 7 continents & 4 seasons, 4 lunar phases of 7 days (~7.4 days) each, Venus .7 AU & Mercury .4 AU, etc.
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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9/7/2014 7:37:47 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/5/2014 9:10:55 PM, dee-em wrote:
If God is eternal and created the universe, who was he a god to before the universe existed?

Obviously there was no-one for him to be God to.

However God is not his name, it is simply his title since he created everything.

His name, according to him, was originally represented by four Hebrew characters, which transliterate across as eitehr YHWH or JHVH, and in English is taken to be Jehovah.

Why the problem with the transliteration?

Simply because for many centuries I, J and Y were interchangeable, wse were V and W. In fact even today in German what we call a double u the Germans call a double vay, vay beng how they pronounce a v.

H has always been H.

Jehovah revealed his name, which is variously translated as "I shall prove to be what I shall prove to be" or other phrases with similar meanings. It is sometimes mistranslated as I Am, but the tense is all wrong for that meaning, especially since God has not yet conclusively proven what his will be beyond dispute. The evidence for that is still being developed, and scripture is the record of that development past, present and future...
LifeMeansGodIsGood
Posts: 2,744
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9/7/2014 7:59:42 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/5/2014 10:10:39 PM, Double_R wrote:
At 9/5/2014 9:41:16 PM, Arasa wrote:
At 9/5/2014 9:10:55 PM, dee-em wrote:
If God is eternal and created the universe, who was he a god to before the universe existed?

the concept of "before" is very crucial here. Why? Because before God created time, there was no time.

Isn't creation necessarily a temporal event?

I think it's safe to say the beginning of creation was when time began. Time has a start point, unless you believe in the eternality of matter which is where "big bang" theorists and atheistic or agnotic physisist stand in their beliefs.
LifeMeansGodIsGood
Posts: 2,744
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9/7/2014 8:08:41 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/6/2014 8:58:07 PM, Arasa wrote:
At 9/6/2014 7:51:29 PM, Double_R wrote:
At 9/6/2014 6:46:24 PM, Arasa wrote:
At 9/6/2014 5:46:28 PM, Double_R wrote:
At 9/6/2014 5:04:52 PM, Arasa wrote:
At 9/5/2014 10:10:39 PM, Double_R wrote:
At 9/5/2014 9:41:16 PM, Arasa wrote:
At 9/5/2014 9:10:55 PM, dee-em wrote:
If God is eternal and created the universe, who was he a god to before the universe existed?

the concept of "before" is very crucial here. Why? Because before God created time, there was no time.

Isn't creation necessarily a temporal event?

Creation was necessarily a temporal event. When God created the universe, He created time as well. Now, the issue of time comes down to the question of "Well, what is time?". There are numerous theories out there, which is why the issue of time in relation to anything is a difficult problem to approach for even the non-religious.

So, to summarize, creation included the creation of the temporal as well.

August Rasa, 4:53 mind

You answered the question, but failed to address the problem.

You say God created the temporal. Yet creation is necessarily temporal. You cannot create something if there is no time, for that is a logically contradictory concept. Yet if time already existed then he didn't create it. It's one or the other.

Or of course you can just say God did it and leave it at that.

How very astute of you, Double_R. You are correct that the question of time remains. However, the answer cannot be given unless one understands the nature of time. "What exactly is time?" is still a vexing question. It could be that time does not exist, merely change. If nothing changes (or moves, as that would be a change in location. Basically, if everything stopped) then time itself has stopped. Time could merely be the word we give to change in relation to another change (i.e. a heartbeat, or a 24-hour clock). If scientists had decided to make a timely second equal what we now know as 37 seconds, then that would be that, and each second would still only be a second long, but in a different manner than what we today agree is a second.

Time is extremely complicated, and this is only one possible answer to it. To fit this into the creation story would be simple: God creates matter, then a constant change. This particular theory delves into some deep interpretation (To which I have not personally staked any claim in it, but it is one of the more interesting theories that I have heard), as "Let there be light" could be interpreted to energy, which is a constant change. In that sense, time is a change measured and continued by energy.

Like I said, it's all very complicated. The theories involving the nature of time vary greatly, and many are good for a laugh or two. I cannot state with any degree of certainty, the nature of time, except to say that God was/is before it, and created it, and is/will be after it has ceased.

Post-note: Was your parthian shot really necessary? Your response would have been equally if not more intelligent without it.
August Rasa, a 4:53 mind

The "Parthian shot" was thrown in at the end in the hopes of avoiding the very thing you just did. Although you throw out a theory of what time could be you still seem to recognize that you can't possibly answer the question. Yet you still proclaim a degree of certainty that God "was/is before it, and created it, and is/will be after it has ceased". This is exactly the problem. You make claims that you can't possibly provide a reasonable justification for, then when this is pointed out you go on to accept that you have no reasonable justification but stand by your claim anyway. This is the point where all hope of intelligent discussion is lost.

I fail to see how my almost-immovable belief is grounds for unintelligent conversation. After all, you seem equally set that God does not exist. I believe that we can continue to have an intelligent discussion despite our biases. After all, no one is unbiased. But, if you feel that we cannot have an intelligent discussion due to our biases, then I understand.

Now, my belief in God is not solely dependent on the understanding of how time works. Obviously, or no one could ever be certain. My belief in God leads me to believe further things about the way that the world works. In this case, that God preceded time, that He created time, and that He will still be when time has ceased.

August Rasa, a 4:53 mind

Time will not cease. It won't be important, in the way it is now, to count time when God's redemption of His creation is complete and sin no longer spreads its degradation through His creatures. Time in heaven will proceed in perfect freedom and perfect joy and perfect blessings so good they cannot be imagined or told, the blessings of heaven only beginning to be spoken of in the Bible will be far beyond what has been heard of it. Time in Hell will be miserable, and unending. Counting time in Hell will be futile. In heaven, time will never run out and it all will be good. In Hell, people will wish it would run out and it all will be bad.