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Immortal.

GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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3/21/2010 1:42:07 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
Why is this in Religion? This belongs in "Debate.org"
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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3/21/2010 1:47:31 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/21/2010 1:44:34 AM, Puck wrote:
I see your Debate.org and raise you a Miscellaneous.

Yeah, that works too. lol
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
GodSands
Posts: 2,843
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3/21/2010 6:40:27 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
Go read his responses, especially on the forum about a rock being to heavy for God to lift. I marked it down as nonsense as sophistry yet he still refuses that it is. It is pitiful.
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
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3/21/2010 8:02:17 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/21/2010 6:40:27 AM, GodSands wrote:
Go read his responses, especially on the forum about a rock being to heavy for God to lift. I marked it down as nonsense as sophistry yet he still refuses that it is. It is pitiful.

Maybe you should... you know... attempt a counter-argument? No... okay than.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
Immortal
Posts: 350
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3/21/2010 8:19:19 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/21/2010 6:40:27 AM, GodSands wrote:
Go read his responses, especially on the forum about a rock being to heavy for God to lift. I marked it down as nonsense as sophistry yet he still refuses that it is. It is pitiful.

GodSands is referring to my omnipotence paradox. He calls it sophistry. He has yet to show how it is.
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
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3/21/2010 8:24:48 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
Regarding the question about a rock created by God that He Himself cannot lift, whatever answer you get on this, it does not deny Him. It's complex because He's Almighty, so creating a rock that limits His might means that He will no longer have the definition of Almighty, which is a part of Him, therefore it would be a form of self-destruction, and God is All-Knowing so He would never destroy Himself. This is a question about definitions, not power.
Immortal
Posts: 350
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3/21/2010 8:29:32 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/21/2010 8:24:48 AM, Mirza wrote:
Regarding the question about a rock created by God that He Himself cannot lift, whatever answer you get on this, it does not deny Him. It's complex because He's Almighty, so creating a rock that limits His might means that He will no longer have the definition of Almighty, which is a part of Him, therefore it would be a form of self-destruction, and God is All-Knowing so He would never destroy Himself. This is a question about definitions, not power.

God can't decrease his power to make the rock un-lift-able then restore his power to make the rock lift-able again?
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
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3/21/2010 8:37:31 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/21/2010 8:29:32 AM, Immortal wrote:
God can't decrease his power to make the rock un-lift-able then restore his power to make the rock lift-able again?
He's able to do all things, yet He's too Knowledgeable to ruin His power. If his definitions don't apply to Him, then He's no longer God, so as long as He is Almighty, perhaps He can make a temporary exception to a stone.

In fact your question is invalid when it comes to the real question. If God makes a stone He cannot lift, then makes it easy to lift again, then He has not made the stone so heavy that He cannot lift it, because He still has the power to reduce the weight. So whether or not He makes it impossible to lift, then makes it possible to lift, He still hasn't made it impossible generally speaking because He can restore His power anytime.
Immortal
Posts: 350
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3/21/2010 8:43:00 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/21/2010 8:37:31 AM, Mirza wrote:
At 3/21/2010 8:29:32 AM, Immortal wrote:
God can't decrease his power to make the rock un-lift-able then restore his power to make the rock lift-able again?

In fact your question is invalid when it comes to the real question. If God makes a stone He cannot lift, then makes it easy to lift again, then He has not made the stone so heavy that He cannot lift it, because He still has the power to reduce the weight. So whether or not He makes it impossible to lift, then makes it possible to lift, He still hasn't made it impossible generally speaking because He can restore His power anytime.

It is impossible for God to lift the rock at previous times.
It is now possible for God to lift the rock at the current time.
Any contradiction?

The paradox does not demand that God can be able to create a rock that he cannot permanently lift.
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
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3/21/2010 8:49:25 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/21/2010 8:43:00 AM, Immortal wrote:
It is impossible for God to lift the rock at previous times.
It is now possible for God to lift the rock at the current time.
Any contradiction?
No, it just doesn't make God unable to lift the stone at any time. If He cannot lift it for a while, then He can 'restore' His power anytime, which means that He was never unable to lift it. If He wants to, He can restore His power. It's as simple as that.

The paradox does not demand that God can be able to create a rock that he cannot permanently lift.
Good, then if He wishes to lift it He can just restore His power.
Immortal
Posts: 350
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3/21/2010 9:03:28 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/21/2010 8:49:25 AM, Mirza wrote:

No, it just doesn't make God unable to lift the stone at any time. If He cannot lift it for a while, then He can 'restore' His power anytime, which means that He was never unable to lift it. If He wants to, He can restore His power. It's as simple as that.

As an infant, I was not able to solve any algebra question. 13 years later, I was able to. This would be different: Can God create a rock that he cannot lift at the same time?

The paradox does not demand that God can be able to create a rock that he cannot permanently lift.
Good, then if He wishes to lift it He can just restore His power.

Yep.
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
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3/21/2010 9:07:41 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/21/2010 9:03:28 AM, Immortal wrote:
As an infant, I was not able to solve any algebra question. 13 years later, I was able to. This would be different: Can God create a rock that he cannot lift at the same time?
That's because you did not posses enough knowledge to solve the problem. God is All-Knowing, therefore saying He cannot do something now but later does not apply to Him. If we say that God creates a rock that He cannot lift, but has the power to make Himself able to lift it again, then He has never actually made a rock so heavy that He could not lift it, simply because He always has the power to lift it if He changes some things.

Basically, if He cannot lift it until He restores His power - which He can do anytime - then He is still able to lift it because He can restore His power anytime.
Immortal
Posts: 350
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3/21/2010 9:19:07 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
Question: Can God create a rock he cannot lift?

Hypothesis:
If God can, he's not omnipotent because he can't lift it.
If God can't, he's not omnipotent because he can't create it.
Therefore, either way God is not omnipotent.

Test 1: God creates a rock he cannot lift at 12 PM
Test 2: God lifts the rock at 1 PM.

Results: God is able to create a rock he cannot lift and lift the same rock without contradicting his omnipotence.

Conclusion: God's omnipotence succeeds the test of the omnipotence paradox.
Immortal
Posts: 350
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3/21/2010 9:21:06 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
EDIT:

Test 1: God creates a rock he cannot lift at 12 PM by decreasing his power.
Test 2: God lifts the rock at 1 PM by restoring his power.
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
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3/21/2010 9:33:14 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
I understand how you argue using logic, and it is logical. I'm not denying that. However, on general basis, God can always lift the rock, because He can always restore His power.
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,924
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3/21/2010 9:39:17 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/21/2010 8:29:32 AM, Immortal wrote:
At 3/21/2010 8:24:48 AM, Mirza wrote:
Regarding the question about a rock created by God that He Himself cannot lift, whatever answer you get on this, it does not deny Him. It's complex because He's Almighty, so creating a rock that limits His might means that He will no longer have the definition of Almighty, which is a part of Him, therefore it would be a form of self-destruction, and God is All-Knowing so He would never destroy Himself. This is a question about definitions, not power.

God can't decrease his power to make the rock un-lift-able then restore his power to make the rock lift-able again?

You're asking if an omnipotent God can make himself not omnipotent?

.......(-_-)
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
Immortal
Posts: 350
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3/21/2010 9:54:57 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/21/2010 9:39:17 AM, popculturepooka wrote:
You're asking if an omnipotent God can make himself not omnipotent?

......(-_-)

Nope. To quote you from our debate, "there are certain things that even an omnipotent deity cannot do." So God can create a rock that he cannot lift. No omnipotent deity can lift that rock at that particular time.
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,924
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3/21/2010 10:03:13 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/21/2010 9:54:57 AM, Immortal wrote:
At 3/21/2010 9:39:17 AM, popculturepooka wrote:
You're asking if an omnipotent God can make himself not omnipotent?

......(-_-)

Nope. To quote you from our debate, "there are certain things that even an omnipotent deity cannot do." So God can create a rock that he cannot lift. No omnipotent deity can lift that rock at that particular time.

God wouldn't be God if he wasn't omnipotent.

And, yes, that is essentially what your asking, because the ONLY way God could create a rock that he could not lift is if he was not omnipotent. So you when you ask if God could "lessen" his power you're essentially asking can God make himself not omnipotent enough to create a rock to he can't lift then make himself omnipotent again to lift the rock.
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
Immortal
Posts: 350
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3/21/2010 10:15:11 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/21/2010 10:03:13 AM, popculturepooka wrote:

God wouldn't be God if he wasn't omnipotent.

And, yes, that is essentially what your asking, because the ONLY way God could create a rock that he could not lift is if he was not omnipotent. So you when you ask if God could "lessen" his power you're essentially asking can God make himself not omnipotent enough to create a rock to he can't lift then make himself omnipotent again to lift the rock.

Christianity holds that God cannot lie. I hold that God cannot lift the rock that he made un-lift-able. The ONLY way God could not lie is if he was not omnipotent?
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,924
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3/21/2010 10:19:49 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/21/2010 10:15:11 AM, Immortal wrote:

Christianity holds that God cannot lie. I hold that God cannot lift the rock that he made un-lift-able. The ONLY way God could not lie is if he was not omnipotent?

You misunderstand me. He couldn't even create the rock much less not lift it.
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
Immortal
Posts: 350
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3/21/2010 10:38:25 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/21/2010 10:19:49 AM, popculturepooka wrote:

You misunderstand me. He couldn't even create the rock much less not lift it.

Why not? God can create a rock as big as an asteroid, then decrease his powers since he's omnipotent so that he would be unable to lift the asteroid. Then he could lift the asteroid by restoring his power. He's still omnipotent either way.
Zetsubou
Posts: 4,933
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3/21/2010 10:52:27 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/21/2010 10:38:25 AM, Immortal wrote:
At 3/21/2010 10:19:49 AM, popculturepooka wrote:

You misunderstand me. He couldn't even create the rock much less not lift it.

Why not? God can create a rock as big as an asteroid, then decrease his powers since he's omnipotent so that he would be unable to lift the asteroid. Then he could lift the asteroid by restoring his power. He's still omnipotent either way.

Your answer makes the God lose his omnipotence to pass the test, that's one of the answers you're suppost to give for the atheist to laugh.

You know what I'm going to say here so I needn't say it.

omnipotence
'sup DDO -- july 2013
Immortal
Posts: 350
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3/21/2010 11:04:49 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/21/2010 10:52:27 AM, Zetsubou wrote:

Your answer makes the God lose his omnipotence to pass the test, that's one of the answers you're suppost to give for the atheist to laugh.

You know what I'm going to say here so I needn't say it.

omnipotence

Then God would be capable of both existing and not existing at the same time,
equally justifying every form of theism and every form of atheism simultaneously
and could capable of informing humans of certain requirements for attaining heaven and avoiding hell but actually holding to entirely different requirements without ever actually lying.

http://atheism.about.com...
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,924
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3/21/2010 11:16:05 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/21/2010 10:52:27 AM, Zetsubou wrote:

Your answer makes the God lose his omnipotence to pass the test, that's one of the answers you're suppost to give for the atheist to laugh.

You know what I'm going to say here so I needn't say it.

omnipotence

Not really. It's the only sensible account of omnipotence.

You, on the other hand, would make omnipotence just completely non-sensical. And you even admitted that. There's no use even reasoning about God on your part because, hey, he could exist and not exist at the same time and he "transcends" the laws of logic (whatever that means). Essentially you're a fideist.

My account ensures that God is all good and could not lie; your account ensures that we can't even say if God is good or not. He could do the logically impossible and change his own nature so he's an evil being
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,924
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3/21/2010 11:17:53 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/21/2010 10:38:25 AM, Immortal wrote:
At 3/21/2010 10:19:49 AM, popculturepooka wrote:

You misunderstand me. He couldn't even create the rock much less not lift it.

Why not? God can create a rock as big as an asteroid, then decrease his powers since he's omnipotent so that he would be unable to lift the asteroid. Then he could lift the asteroid by restoring his power. He's still omnipotent either way.

You do realize that any "decrease" in power from being omnipotent would mean that he could make himself not omnipotent, right? Logically impossible.
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!