Total Posts:70|Showing Posts:1-30|Last Page
Jump to topic:

Where do your loyalties lie

MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/8/2014 11:02:00 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
Matthew10:32-39
32 Every one therefore who shall confess me before men, him will I also confess before my Father who is in heaven. 33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father who is in heaven. 34 Think not that I came to send peace on the earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. 35 For I came to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law: 36 and a mans foes shall be they of his own household. 37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. 38 And he that doth not take his cross and follow after me, is not worthy of me. 39 He that findeth his life shall lose it; and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.

That's Christianity for you, according to Christ himself.

Are you up for it?

Are you prepared to sacrifice your loved ones for the sake of being obedient to Christ?

Don;t like it?

Don't blame you, but it isn't the fault of God or Christ. It is the fault of Satan who can all too easily put us in a position where we have to make that sort of decision, to let our loved ones die rather than break faith with God, so if you want to blame anyone, blame Satan, and defy him so he doesn't win in your case.

Satan can cause men who take the lives of other men, but only God can restore that life in due time, and if we remain faithful he will, and if our loved ones die because of our faithfulness he will restore them also.

Such has always been the lot of true Christians. It tends not to happen often to Apostates because Satan already has them in his pocket so why should he worry about them. But anyone who sticks his head above the herd becomes an instant target.

Those Apostates and false religionists Satan does have threatened that way are not a problem, he knows they will cave in and give a poor example to others.
bulproof
Posts: 25,296
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/8/2014 11:05:35 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
Asks the serial adulterer.

WooHoo.

Where do yours lie? (lie is an excellent word for you)
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/8/2014 11:31:46 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/8/2014 11:05:35 AM, bulproof wrote:
Asks the serial adulterer.

WooHoo.

Where do yours lie? (lie is an excellent word for you)

Ex serial adulterer thank you, lol.

Mine lie with God and Christ and have for some time now, though I admit it also took me sometime to learn how to actually show that in my life.
bulproof
Posts: 25,296
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/8/2014 11:37:52 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/8/2014 11:31:46 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 9/8/2014 11:05:35 AM, bulproof wrote:
Asks the serial adulterer.

WooHoo.

Where do yours lie? (lie is an excellent word for you)

Ex serial adulterer thank you, lol.

Mine lie with God and Christ and have for some time now, though I admit it also took me sometime to learn how to actually show that in my life.

According to Jesus you can't be an ex adulterer, unless you repent and return to your spouse and remain faithful to her.

Serial adulterer is your appropriate title.
neutral
Posts: 4,478
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/8/2014 11:58:33 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/8/2014 11:02:00 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
Matthew10:32-39
32 Every one therefore who shall confess me before men, him will I also confess before my Father who is in heaven. 33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father who is in heaven. 34 Think not that I came to send peace on the earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. 35 For I came to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law: 36 and a mans foes shall be they of his own household. 37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. 38 And he that doth not take his cross and follow after me, is not worthy of me. 39 He that findeth his life shall lose it; and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.

That's Christianity for you, according to Christ himself.

Are you up for it?

Are you prepared to sacrifice your loved ones for the sake of being obedient to Christ?

Don;t like it?

Don't blame you, but it isn't the fault of God or Christ. It is the fault of Satan who can all too easily put us in a position where we have to make that sort of decision, to let our loved ones die rather than break faith with God, so if you want to blame anyone, blame Satan, and defy him so he doesn't win in your case.

Satan can cause men who take the lives of other men, but only God can restore that life in due time, and if we remain faithful he will, and if our loved ones die because of our faithfulness he will restore them also.

Such has always been the lot of true Christians. It tends not to happen often to Apostates because Satan already has them in his pocket so why should he worry about them. But anyone who sticks his head above the herd becomes an instant target.

Those Apostates and false religionists Satan does have threatened that way are not a problem, he knows they will cave in and give a poor example to others.

This does not address Luke brother.

Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. 2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation. 3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same: 4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil. 5 Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake. 6 For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing. 7 Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honor. (Luke 13:1-7)

Additionally:

But if any provide not for his own, and especially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith and is worse than an infidel. (1 Timothy 5: 8)

If a thief be found breaking up, and be smitten that he die, there shall no blood be shed for him. (Exodus 22:2)

Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. 35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. 36 And a man's foes shall be they of his own household. 37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. 38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me. 39 He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it. (Matthew 10:34-39)

We must also remember that Jesus comes to fulfill the law:

"But if the watchman see the sword come, and blow not the trumpet, and the people be not warned; if the sword come, and take any person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at the watchman's hand." (Ezekiel 33:6)

The result of this, a doctrine that encompasses both Old and New Testaments, is known as the Just War Doctrine.

The strict conditions for legitimate defense by military force require rigorous consideration. The gravity of such a decision makes it subject to rigorous conditions of moral legitimacy. At one and the same time: the damage inflicted by the aggressor on the nation or community of nations must be lasting, grave, and certain; all other means of putting an end to it must have been shown to be impractical or ineffective;
there must be serious prospects of success; the use of arms must not produce evils and disorders graver than the evil to be eliminated. The power of modern means of destruction weighs very heavily in evaluating this condition.

http://www.catholic.com...

What we come away with is a STRONG denunciation of violence, with the acceptance that, in the last measure, it is sometimes necessary.

The days of Job are over. The idea that man must bear the a continual pox to prove his worthiness to the Lord, with the exception of a few instances, is done. To expect a man to sit by while his family is torn form him is an act that most cannot, and indeed will not, bear.

The act here of attacking the family is indeed Satan, and resisting Satan, even in a temporal sense is not a condemnable offense. Quite the opposite.

Although disagreement clearly exists on this subject, the final assessment is one that a man must choose of his own conscience. Judgement, on this one, will finally rest with Christ.

I again, applaud those who can take the full pacifist course. It is a difficult path and surely one of Christ, but I cannot believe that Christ would condemn those of us who also follow his guidance and provision his subjects with worthy agents of government and protection.

I believe in the end, that Christ himself will accept the obligations of stewardship and heavy heart that employs violence - which is as heavy as the heart that bears the sacrifices of pacifism.
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/8/2014 12:13:17 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/8/2014 11:37:52 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 9/8/2014 11:31:46 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 9/8/2014 11:05:35 AM, bulproof wrote:
Asks the serial adulterer.

WooHoo.

Where do yours lie? (lie is an excellent word for you)

Ex serial adulterer thank you, lol.

Mine lie with God and Christ and have for some time now, though I admit it also took me sometime to learn how to actually show that in my life.

According to Jesus you can't be an ex adulterer, unless you repent and return to your spouse and remain faithful to her.

Serial adulterer is your appropriate title.

And yet according to scripture the one grounds for divorce is adultery, thus cutting off the return.

Repentance is simply a change of lifestyle to show you have no intention of repeating past sins. It does not require a return to the spouse who by this time may have divorced you anyway.

Where I, and my first wife went wrong, and no-one, including us, realise was that scripture speaks against return to a divorced spouse, so in effect our second marriage was unscriptural anyway. Deuteronomy 24:4.

Whilst that is no longer in force as law, the principle does imply that it is incorrect to remarry the spouse who has divorced you, and at least some of the reasons for that became apparent with time dooming that marriage from the start.

I am not claiming that excuses what I did, nothing does. However it was not done for the sort of reason you would do it for, it was down literally out of cowardice, fear of ending up alone. An all to common fear, but one which, if I had recognised it at the time, I would have worked to overcome. However at the time I was more concerned about my own lack of self control.

It was only later that I spotted the scriptural principle against remarrying the same woman, and I wished that I had noticed it before, and especially that the Elders in that Congregation had remembered it. Still, they didn't, and nor did I, though I can at least claim lack of experience as a partial excuse.

So you see I could not return once divorced, and I already knew my wife would not accept any thoughts of repentance, and if she had accepted me back before divorcing me she would have been compelled by Christian practice to forgive me completely also. However, as it rapidly became apparent that she had not forgiven me for the circumstances of our first separation and divorce there is no way she would have done so second time round either. Since the pressures caused by her bitterness over the first failure of our marriage were a contributory factor in the failure of our second, what chance would there have been of a return?

No, scriptural commendation not to return to one who cannot forgive is, as with all scriptural recommendations, wise and practical.

So you see once again your ignorance shows up clearly, and your lack of wisdom in criticising what you do not understand even more so.
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/8/2014 12:42:47 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/8/2014 11:58:33 AM, neutral wrote:
At 9/8/2014 11:02:00 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
Matthew10:32-39
32 Every one therefore who shall confess me before men, him will I also confess before my Father who is in heaven. 33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father who is in heaven. 34 Think not that I came to send peace on the earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. 35 For I came to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law: 36 and a mans foes shall be they of his own household. 37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. 38 And he that doth not take his cross and follow after me, is not worthy of me. 39 He that findeth his life shall lose it; and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.

That's Christianity for you, according to Christ himself.

Are you up for it?

Are you prepared to sacrifice your loved ones for the sake of being obedient to Christ?

Don;t like it?

Don't blame you, but it isn't the fault of God or Christ. It is the fault of Satan who can all too easily put us in a position where we have to make that sort of decision, to let our loved ones die rather than break faith with God, so if you want to blame anyone, blame Satan, and defy him so he doesn't win in your case.

Satan can cause men who take the lives of other men, but only God can restore that life in due time, and if we remain faithful he will, and if our loved ones die because of our faithfulness he will restore them also.

Such has always been the lot of true Christians. It tends not to happen often to Apostates because Satan already has them in his pocket so why should he worry about them. But anyone who sticks his head above the herd becomes an instant target.

Those Apostates and false religionists Satan does have threatened that way are not a problem, he knows they will cave in and give a poor example to others.

This does not address Luke brother.

Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. 2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation. 3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same: 4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil. 5 Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake. 6 For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing. 7 Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honor. (Luke 13:1-7)

Additionally:

But if any provide not for his own, and especially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith and is worse than an infidel. (1 Timothy 5: 8)

If a thief be found breaking up, and be smitten that he die, there shall no blood be shed for him. (Exodus 22:2)


Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. 35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. 36 And a man's foes shall be they of his own household. 37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. 38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me. 39 He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it. (Matthew 10:34-39)

We must also remember that Jesus comes to fulfill the law:

"But if the watchman see the sword come, and blow not the trumpet, and the people be not warned; if the sword come, and take any person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at the watchman's hand." (Ezekiel 33:6)

The result of this, a doctrine that encompasses both Old and New Testaments, is known as the Just War Doctrine.

The strict conditions for legitimate defense by military force require rigorous consideration. The gravity of such a decision makes it subject to rigorous conditions of moral legitimacy. At one and the same time: the damage inflicted by the aggressor on the nation or community of nations must be lasting, grave, and certain; all other means of putting an end to it must have been shown to be impractical or ineffective;
there must be serious prospects of success; the use of arms must not produce evils and disorders graver than the evil to be eliminated. The power of modern means of destruction weighs very heavily in evaluating this condition.

http://www.catholic.com...

What we come away with is a STRONG denunciation of violence, with the acceptance that, in the last measure, it is sometimes necessary.

The days of Job are over. The idea that man must bear the a continual pox to prove his worthiness to the Lord, with the exception of a few instances, is done. To expect a man to sit by while his family is torn form him is an act that most cannot, and indeed will not, bear.

The act here of attacking the family is indeed Satan, and resisting Satan, even in a temporal sense is not a condemnable offense. Quite the opposite.

Although disagreement clearly exists on this subject, the final assessment is one that a man must choose of his own conscience. Judgement, on this one, will finally rest with Christ.

I again, applaud those who can take the full pacifist course. It is a difficult path and surely one of Christ, but I cannot believe that Christ would condemn those of us who also follow his guidance and provision his subjects with worthy agents of government and protection.

I believe in the end, that Christ himself will accept the obligations of stewardship and heavy heart that employs violence - which is as heavy as the heart that bears the sacrifices of pacifism.

Actually that is not Luke, it is Paul, from Romans 13, and it does address it, because again it is relative. God's law is supreme. As it says, God has given them their current authority, so they are subject to to God and if they transgress his laws they will pay the price for doing so.

Therefore any law which goes against God's laws and principles is null and void in God's eyes, and should e ignored by any True Christian.

As the Nuremburgh trial proved, obedience to unreasonable commands is not an excuse for wrong actions, and any law which transgresses God's laws and principles is clearly and unreasonable law.

So yes it covers it completely, because no matter what authority they have, God's authority overrules it.

Everything is relative, and God is at the top of the tree.

However he does expect us to obey all laws which do not violate his principles.

Therefore we will continue to obey Christ's command that his followers remain no part of this world and therefore take no part in its divisions.

After all, since all true Christians are completely against Satan, and all Governments are in his power how do you side with any of them against any other. Whichever side you pick you are supporting an arm of Satan's rulership and therefore taking a stand against God.

As Paul said, Satan is the god of this world, and as Christ said, Satan is the ruler of it.
bulproof
Posts: 25,296
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/8/2014 12:54:59 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/8/2014 12:13:17 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
And yet according to scripture the one grounds for divorce is adultery, thus cutting off the return.
Which means that your ex wives have a licence to remarry, but you the adulterer has no such licence.

You have only one choice................to repent, seek forgiveness and return to your original life.

Serial adulterer is you.
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/8/2014 1:23:40 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/8/2014 12:54:59 PM, bulproof wrote:
At 9/8/2014 12:13:17 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
And yet according to scripture the one grounds for divorce is adultery, thus cutting off the return.
Which means that your ex wives have a licence to remarry, but you the adulterer has no such licence.

You have only one choice................to repent, seek forgiveness and return to your original life.

Serial adulterer is you.

As I have already explained, that is not a choice that is open to me.

and it is still ex-serial adulterer, lol.
bornofgod
Posts: 11,322
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/8/2014 2:02:12 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/8/2014 11:02:00 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
Matthew10:32-39
32 Every one therefore who shall confess me before men, him will I also confess before my Father who is in heaven. 33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father who is in heaven. 34 Think not that I came to send peace on the earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. 35 For I came to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law: 36 and a mans foes shall be they of his own household. 37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. 38 And he that doth not take his cross and follow after me, is not worthy of me. 39 He that findeth his life shall lose it; and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.

That's Christianity for you, according to Christ himself.

Are you up for it?

Are you prepared to sacrifice your loved ones for the sake of being obedient to Christ?

Don;t like it?

Don't blame you, but it isn't the fault of God or Christ. It is the fault of Satan who can all too easily put us in a position where we have to make that sort of decision, to let our loved ones die rather than break faith with God, so if you want to blame anyone, blame Satan, and defy him so he doesn't win in your case.

Satan can cause men who take the lives of other men, but only God can restore that life in due time, and if we remain faithful he will, and if our loved ones die because of our faithfulness he will restore them also.

Such has always been the lot of true Christians. It tends not to happen often to Apostates because Satan already has them in his pocket so why should he worry about them. But anyone who sticks his head above the herd becomes an instant target.

Those Apostates and false religionists Satan does have threatened that way are not a problem, he knows they will cave in and give a poor example to others.

It's obvious you don't understand the prophecies about ALL God's people bowing before Him as they're saved from their wicked flesh and this wicked world that God used to confuse His people with.

Psalm 22:
25: From thee comes my praise in the great congregation; my vows I will pay before those who fear him.
26: The afflicted shall eat and be satisfied; those who seek him shall praise the LORD! May your hearts live for ever!
27: All the ends of the earth shall remember and turn to the LORD; and all the families of the nations shall worship before him.
28: For dominion belongs to the LORD, and he rules over the nations.
29: Yea, to him shall all the proud of the earth bow down; before him shall bow all who go down to the dust, and he who cannot keep himself alive.
30: Posterity shall serve him; men shall tell of the Lord to the coming generation,
31: and proclaim his deliverance to a people yet unborn, that he has wrought it
.

Romans 14
11: for it is written, "As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall give praise to God."

Not ONE prophecy shows that a group of people called Christians are the only ones who will be saved.
neutral
Posts: 4,478
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/8/2014 2:32:36 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/8/2014 12:42:47 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:


This does not address Luke brother.

Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. 2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation. 3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same: 4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil. 5 Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake. 6 For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing. 7 Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honor. (Luke 13:1-7)

Yep, that is a misquote - its Romans - but the quote is accurate.


Actually that is not Luke, it is Paul, from Romans 13, and it does address it, because again it is relative. God's law is supreme. As it says, God has given them their current authority, so they are subject to to God and if they transgress his laws they will pay the price for doing so.

Well, God is instructing us above to govern ourselves. It MUST be done.


Therefore any law which goes against God's laws and principles is null and void in God's eyes, and should e ignored by any True Christian.

Exactly.

As the Nuremburgh trial proved, obedience to unreasonable commands is not an excuse for wrong actions, and any law which transgresses God's laws and principles is clearly and unreasonable law.

And the reality of ungoverned society should be enough to convince you that this is not what God desires of us. If all men followed Christ perfectly, there would be no need of violence at all - we do not.

16 These six things doth the Lord hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him: 17 A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, 18 An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief,
19 A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren. (Proverbs 6:16)

This is reinforced in the NT:

18 But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man. 19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies: 20 These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man.

It speaks of murder, not all killing.

And the reality of governance sets in with larger Christian sects, so to does the realty of the need for governance become paramount.

Can we have a society without police? The answer is no.

Can our Nation survive without Soldiers to defend it? The answer is no.

How do you defend your crops when marauding hoards can steal them at will with no fear of consequences? How do you raise a family when barbarians can swoop in and steal your children and harvest them for slavery? How do you have an economy that provides for your people, when you cannot enforce your logistical lines? Trade? Secure your food supply? Create universities and churches for learning? All of civilization depends on sound government - almost all of which can be done without raising a finger in violence - save one thing: defend it from those who would tear it down.

That is why we call the military and police - service. Its not a job you get rich at.

There are those within our society who seek to live a life of humbleness and gentleness. There are also those who recognize the needs of governance - its not something that can be ignored. Not without great consequences.

And asking people to forgo family, the most important thing we have, AND society, peace, etc. Christ himself states that government is necessary - that IT is the righteous user of the sword and deliverer of consequence.

That is tough to simply ignore.

So yes it covers it completely, because no matter what authority they have, God's authority overrules it.

Indeed it does.


Everything is relative, and God is at the top of the tree.

However he does expect us to obey all laws which do not violate his principles.

Yep.


Therefore we will continue to obey Christ's command that his followers remain no part of this world and therefore take no part in its divisions.

And yet you are a part of this world. You will be effected by its divisions. We are ALL the children of God. Every last one of us.

To live peacefully, is the goal - that choice is not ours to make. Our enemies make it, and we must respond.

That the US is currently involved in several far flung divisions? No doubt, and there will be a price to pay.

"And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet." (Matthew 24:6)

After all, since all true Christians are completely against Satan, and all Governments are in his power how do you side with any of them against any other. Whichever side you pick you are supporting an arm of Satan's rulership and therefore taking a stand against God.

That is not what Paul claims in Romans, and I think he had a tad bit more insight than you on the matter.

You cannot call chaos and the absence of the rule of law God's desire. Somalia is not what God intends of man. THAT would be the work of Satan - and THAT started when legitimate government was undermined.
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/8/2014 3:34:27 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/8/2014 2:32:36 PM, neutral wrote:
At 9/8/2014 12:42:47 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:

Well, God is instructing us above to govern ourselves. It MUST be done. No he isn't, never has, never would, he is simply telling us to listen to those whom he has allowed to have authority over us for the time being and give them the respect and level of allegiance due to them.

If he were telling us to govern ourselves, then why does he later say he will destroy all human government? (Revelation 16:16-18).

He has allowed human government despite their being controlled by Satan, for precisely the same reasons that he has allowed Satan as much rope as he has for the time being. To prove to us that it cannot work, and look around you. It isn't working. Loos at the Sudan. Look at Iraq. Look at the people starving and dying all round us. Do you think for one minute that God is remotely happy with what the governments are doing. No, God wants us united not divided into nations.

Exactly.

And the reality of ungoverned society should be enough to convince you that this is not what God desires of us. If all men followed Christ perfectly, there would be no need of violence at all - we do not.


That is true, but True Christians are not ungoverned, they are Governed, as I am, by Christ and his father. We are governed by his laws and are accountable to him. We recognise Christ as our ruling king, and give our allegiance to him, and thus to his father, over and above all human Government.

No, we are definitely not ungoverned. Far from it. Our the worst human Government can do to us is remove our current life. our heavenly government can obliterate us from life for all time if need be, or they can have us resurrected at the appropriate time.government

That means that in fact our government holds more severe sanctions than any human government is allowed.

16 These six things doth the Lord hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him: 17 A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, 18 An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief,
19 A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren. (Proverbs 6:16)

This is reinforced in the NT:

18 But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man. 19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies: 20 These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man.

It speaks of murder, not all killing.


In God's eyes all killing is murder, whether by an abortionist, a soldier or an individual, since God authorises no killing since his son's death.

Again, if you love your fellow man as yourself not will not, cannot kill him. If you trust in God you leave all that to God to do, if he sees fit, in his own time.

And the reality of governance sets in with larger Christian sects, so to does the realty of the need for governance become paramount.

But what doesn't sink in is that with Christ as our king we have the best Governance possible.

Can we have a society without police? The answer is no.


Not currently, but we will have, and even Ghandi recognised the inevitability of that. As he said, if all lived by the principles contained in the Sermon on the Mount there would be no need for Police forces or armies. Of course he also said that he loved Christianity but hated Christians. He recognised the hypocrisy ion the vast majority of Christian faiths.

You only need police if you have humans who are likely to transgress. No true Christian would do so.

Can our Nation survive without Soldiers to defend it? The answer is no.


No but then God doesn't intend nations to survive, just people.

How do you defend your crops when marauding hoards can steal them at will with no fear of consequences? How do you raise a family when barbarians can swoop in and steal your children and harvest them for slavery? How do you have an economy that provides for your people, when you cannot enforce your logistical lines? Trade? Secure your food supply? Create universities and churches for learning? All of civilization depends on sound government - almost all of which can be done without raising a finger in violence - save one thing: defend it from those who would tear it down.


You don't defend them, you rely on God to provide what you need, and in my experience he always does and always has, for those who truly rely on him.

That is why we call the military and police - service. Its not a job you get rich at.


No one says it is, but it is not a job God approves of either. It is a job that makes those who do it a part of Satan's following.

There are those within our society who seek to live a life of humbleness and gentleness. There are also those who recognize the needs of governance - its not something that can be ignored. Not without great consequences.


As I say, Christians are governed, and much better than by any human government.

And asking people to forgo family, the most important thing we have, AND society, peace, etc. Christ himself states that government is necessary - that IT is the righteous user of the sword and deliverer of consequence.


No. Our relationship with God is the most important thing we have families can be easily replaced, and in this day of easy divorce all too often are. I should know I have been divorced too many times and my sons want nothing to do with me.

Also I am adopted, as was my birth sister, and whilst there is a father's name, my birth mother's husband, on her birth certificate there is no father's name on mine. Also my birth mother appears to have vanished off the face of teh earth so, as often happened in those days she probably had an affair, got pregnant with me, and was institutionalised for her sins.

Lose our relationship with God and in the long run we will lose our families also, after all, they will die one day. Those who are faithful to God have the prospect of eternal life in front of them.

What do you want to do, lose both God and your family or keep God and trust him to do what is best for your family, if there is anything he can do. I know where my vote goes.

That is tough to simply ignore.

So yes it covers it completely, because no matter what authority they have, God's authority overrules it.

Indeed it does.
ever he does expect us to obey all laws which do not violate his principles.

Yep.


Therefore we will continue to obey Christ's command that his followers remain no part of this world and therefore take no part in its divisions.

And yet you are a part of this world. You will be effected by its divisions. We are ALL the children of God. Every last one of us.

Just because I am affected by it does not make me a part of it. I take no part in it. I do not vo

To live peacefully, is the goal - that choice is not ours to make. Our enemies make it, and we must respond.

That the US is currently involved in several far flung divisions? No doubt, and there will be a price to pay.

There is no chaos with God. Christ is the only king we need, and the bible the only law book.

No we do not need to respond, nor should we. what we need, truly need, is to rely on God not men, not armaments, but God. He cares for his own and cares for them well, even if sometimes through the medium of the resurrection.

The choice to live peacefully is ours, but if others disrupt it we show the what a True Christian can do, and how fully we rely on God, not ourselves.

I can see where you are coming from but you think exactly how Satan wants you to think, not as God does.
neutral
Posts: 4,478
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/8/2014 4:03:49 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/8/2014 3:34:27 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:

Again, if you love your fellow man as yourself not will not, cannot kill him. If you trust in God you leave all that to God to do, if he sees fit, in his own time.


Actually, I will address this point, there is more, and the topic is worthy of discussion. I will say that it is, as paradoxical as it sound, precisely because I love my fellow man that I can kill. I would not kill 'for myself'.

The simple fact of the matter, as laces your posts, is the need for accountability. And in the vast majority of situations, the greatest weapon I, and those like me, had was a cup of tea and a willingness to listen. Accountability in these situations can be brought to those situation precisely because you re objective, and in a land of strength you have the ability to defend those decisions. Wisdom prevails in secure situations, and there was rarely a need for violence, if indeed ever, where people were willing to sit down and discuss there differences and seek compromise.

But not everyone is willing or able. And when they are driven by madness or corruption, or whatever to commit grievous crimes? One must then decide what to do? Do we allow the innocent to be prayed upon? Strangers whom I love more than myself? Or those committing heinous acts? Those whom I love but are committing egregious harm.

I must choose, for I alone have been in positions where that decision must be made. Is my love from my enemy greater than my love for the innocent? That answer is surely no.

I share this again, from Iraq, to make the point. We captured a guy in Baquba who had ben engaged in all manner of atrocity and violence. He believed that he was 'fighting the good' fight by terrorizing the population into 'obedience' - suffice to say, when we arrived, the population willingly and easily handed him over. (A lesson in the unrighteous use of violence).

He persisted in angry denial so long as the Iraqis held him, believing they were just puppets of the Iraqis. And then we went in. We exchanged greetings with men who had become fast friends, talked openly of family, before getting to business. As as the warmth and camaraderie became apparent ... I watched the prisoner crumble. His eyes changed almost in an instant into a look of abject terror and horror as the full weight of what he had done to his neighbors, his former friends became apparent. The weight of his guilt crushed him. Right there before my eyes. I swear, if you could hear Satan on the Earth, he was laughing then at how badly this man had been duped. I have rarely seen a guilty conscience that weighed so heavily - a crushing burden that - honestly - I would not wish upon my worst enemy.

That is why drives my service. That is why I cannot, personally, become a contentious objector. The rule of law, admittedly with a little violence, prevents grievous harm to fellow man, both upon my enemies and upon the innocent.

As soon as a legitimate enemy stops, that does not mean he is free of consequences for his actions, but it does remove the threat of violence - instantly.

I will be the first to say that not all men who serve do so with an eye toward responsibility and the safeguarding of the innocent. Whereas governance can indeed attract the nobel seeking duty and service, it also attracts those that are hungry for power. If there is anything that I have taken away from experience with these people is that great skill at killing absent great understanding of service and wisdom is ... something to be extremely wary of.

To be good at killing as the means of advancement rather than being wise in the use of power ... I think that is something that America has lost sight of. We have the results of two recent wars that should serve as advanced warning of that reality, and yet the instrument of American power is primarily military - and that is not something that can long stand.

Force must be used only as a last result. There will always be evil and injustice in the world, but my combat experience brought forth the greatest weapon in defeating it - a cup of tea.

As Christians, though we may disagree on the strictness of pacifism, I will be among the first to declare that its use should be rare. Much rarer than it is today.
Beastt
Posts: 5,135
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/8/2014 5:37:14 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
The Bible is "preserved" about as well as my grandmother (who died 35-years ago).

The New Testament alone contains more alterations and changes than words (literally).

With more than 5,700 ancient Greek New Testament manuscripts, we find that no two are alike. And while some of the changes can be sorted out by comparing multiple scripts and dating them, and some can be considered more probable of the original than others, we simply don't know what the original manuscripts said. And it's hard to accurately interpret them, when you don't even have them.

If the Bible is considered to to be the word of God, God can be considered to see the preservation of his message to be unimportant.
"If we believe absurdities we shall commit atrocities." -- Voltaire
annanicole
Posts: 19,791
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/8/2014 5:46:58 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/8/2014 5:37:14 PM, Beastt wrote:
The Bible is "preserved" about as well as my grandmother (who died 35-years ago).

The New Testament alone contains more alterations and changes than words (literally).

With more than 5,700 ancient Greek New Testament manuscripts, we find that no two are alike. And while some of the changes can be sorted out by comparing multiple scripts and dating them, and some can be considered more probable of the original than others, we simply don't know what the original manuscripts said. And it's hard to accurately interpret them, when you don't even have them.

If the Bible is considered to to be the word of God, God can be considered to see the preservation of his message to be unimportant.

That's pure nonsense. The NT is the most verified of any ancient text. If you know of one that is better, then please tell us which one.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
neutral
Posts: 4,478
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/8/2014 10:57:36 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/8/2014 5:46:58 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 9/8/2014 5:37:14 PM, Beastt wrote:
The Bible is "preserved" about as well as my grandmother (who died 35-years ago).

The New Testament alone contains more alterations and changes than words (literally).

With more than 5,700 ancient Greek New Testament manuscripts, we find that no two are alike. And while some of the changes can be sorted out by comparing multiple scripts and dating them, and some can be considered more probable of the original than others, we simply don't know what the original manuscripts said. And it's hard to accurately interpret them, when you don't even have them.

If the Bible is considered to to be the word of God, God can be considered to see the preservation of his message to be unimportant.

That's pure nonsense. The NT is the most verified of any ancient text. If you know of one that is better, then please tell us which one.

Its called thread contamination - unable to offer up anything of substance, he simple goes to the usual: Christ Myth, Genesis, Nicean Process dysfunction, No evidence (even when it clear is there), or just random rabid nihilism where he pretend he is fighting to stop genoicide ... which is about to happen.

Its Beasty, and what drives him is not reason.
annanicole
Posts: 19,791
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/8/2014 11:36:04 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/8/2014 10:57:36 PM, neutral wrote:
At 9/8/2014 5:46:58 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 9/8/2014 5:37:14 PM, Beastt wrote:
The Bible is "preserved" about as well as my grandmother (who died 35-years ago).

The New Testament alone contains more alterations and changes than words (literally).

With more than 5,700 ancient Greek New Testament manuscripts, we find that no two are alike. And while some of the changes can be sorted out by comparing multiple scripts and dating them, and some can be considered more probable of the original than others, we simply don't know what the original manuscripts said. And it's hard to accurately interpret them, when you don't even have them.

If the Bible is considered to to be the word of God, God can be considered to see the preservation of his message to be unimportant.

That's pure nonsense. The NT is the most verified of any ancient text. If you know of one that is better, then please tell us which one.

Its called thread contamination - unable to offer up anything of substance, he simple goes to the usual: Christ Myth, Genesis, Nicean Process dysfunction, No evidence (even when it clear is there), or just random rabid nihilism where he pretend he is fighting to stop genoicide ... which is about to happen.

Its Beasty, and what drives him is not reason.

I figured that much out when the little dude quoted some preface from an NIV Study Bible as the ultimate authority, when he himself does not believe much of anything in any Bible. Then he made a play on the word "unanimous", claiming there just couldn't be any "unanimity" unless there was a vote. The trouble with that, of course, is that not all of the pre-Nicene Christians were alive at the same time; therefore, the "church fathers" couldn't have voted!

Sometimes he ranks right up there right bornofgod and celestialtorah. Other times, he's totally sane. It goes on and off like a light switch.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/9/2014 4:07:01 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/8/2014 4:03:49 PM, neutral wrote:
At 9/8/2014 3:34:27 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:


Again, I see where you are coming from, but again you are thinking precisely along the lines Satan wants you to because you are echoing his lie to Even which was basically "you can't trust God, you can't leave it to him".

You say you can kill because you love your fellow man and yet it would be your fellow man you are killing. How is that showing love for him? Christ did go as far as saying "love your enemy" if you kill him, you aren't loving him.

We can discuss it all day, but as long as you think in Satan's terms and not God's you will never get it.

The simple answer is precisely as Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego laid it out to King Nebuchadnezzar.

Daniel 3:16-18
16 Shadrach, Meshach, and Abedne"go answered the king: "O Nebuchadnezzar, we have no need to answer you in this matter. 17 If it must be, our God whom we serve is able to rescue us from the burning fiery furnace, O king, and to rescue us from your hand. 18 But even if he does not, let it be known to you, O king, that we will not serve your gods or worship the image of gold that you have set up."

That is the attitude of all who serve God and Christ. We will obey God's commands no matter what.

In these times it is easier because we know we have the resurrection as a protection should the worst, as they say, come to the worst. Since we are all looking forward to what is to come, getting a short cut there through faithfulness to God, either for ourselves or our loved ones, is a bonus not a loss.

God put the life of his own son on the line for us, not to kill, but to be killed. Should we not be prepared to do the same.

Abraham prefigured that by being prepared to do the same, knowing it was more beneficial for his son if he obeyed God than if he refused.

#Of course God doesn't expect us to just trust him blindly. He invites us to learn how worthy of that trust he is, which is why Jesus said that eternal life is all tied up with getting to know both his father, and himself, and by that he meant getting to know them well enough to trust them 100%.

That means study of the bible. It means being prepared to study deep enough to work out what is actually behind what, on the surface, may seem cruel and despotic, and are often taken that way by shallow minded people.

But the point is that this is the issue which has caused this system to become as rotten and self destructive as it has, the issue of trust.

Satan said that no-one would serve God under pressure or without some reward. So far you are, from your argumentation, arguing Satan's case, whereas I am arguing God's.

I know he can be trusted. He has proved that to me so many times, in so many ways, in the present as well as in the distant, very distant, past.

I also know that a short cut to the New World God has planned, though renewed world is more accurate, is a gain not a loss, which is what most see it as, especially those who don't believe n, or trust in God, and even worse, those who have allowed themselves to be misled by Apostate teachers such as Annanicole.

So in the end, it all boils down to this.

If you love your fellow man as yourself, and that means all your fellow men not just your allies, you will not kill him or her.

If you are obedient to Christ and love your enemy, you will not, cannot kill him.

Simple as really. You can justify Satan's stand as much as you like, and Satan makes it easy for you to do so, or you can learn to trust God by getting to know how trustworthy he really is and live eternally, though maybe not long in this system.

Am I worried about death for myself or my loved ones?

Do I worry about them going to sleep at night?

No, I do neither, and death as we know it at present is nothing more than a dreamless sleep, from which we shall be awoken, if God sees fit, in God's due time.

That's not an excuse for killing others, though if you do it is certain that you are giving them a free pass. Nor is it an excuse for cheating for yourself or your loved ones, because cheats, as they say, never prosper.

No, it is a reason to be faithful to God, knowing that if the worst does happen, he has your back.
neutral
Posts: 4,478
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/9/2014 5:25:52 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/9/2014 4:07:01 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 9/8/2014 4:03:49 PM, neutral wrote:
At 9/8/2014 3:34:27 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:


Again, I see where you are coming from, but again you are thinking precisely along the lines Satan wants you to because you are echoing his lie to Even which was basically "you can't trust God, you can't leave it to him".

You say you can kill because you love your fellow man and yet it would be your fellow man you are killing. How is that showing love for him? Christ did go as far as saying "love your enemy" if you kill him, you aren't loving him.

We can discuss it all day, but as long as you think in Satan's terms and not God's you will never get it.

The simple answer is precisely as Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego laid it out to King Nebuchadnezzar.

Daniel 3:16-18
16 Shadrach, Meshach, and Abedne"go answered the king: "O Nebuchadnezzar, we have no need to answer you in this matter. 17 If it must be, our God whom we serve is able to rescue us from the burning fiery furnace, O king, and to rescue us from your hand. 18 But even if he does not, let it be known to you, O king, that we will not serve your gods or worship the image of gold that you have set up."

That is the attitude of all who serve God and Christ. We will obey God's commands no matter what.

In these times it is easier because we know we have the resurrection as a protection should the worst, as they say, come to the worst. Since we are all looking forward to what is to come, getting a short cut there through faithfulness to God, either for ourselves or our loved ones, is a bonus not a loss.

God put the life of his own son on the line for us, not to kill, but to be killed. Should we not be prepared to do the same.

Abraham prefigured that by being prepared to do the same, knowing it was more beneficial for his son if he obeyed God than if he refused.

#Of course God doesn't expect us to just trust him blindly. He invites us to learn how worthy of that trust he is, which is why Jesus said that eternal life is all tied up with getting to know both his father, and himself, and by that he meant getting to know them well enough to trust them 100%.

That means study of the bible. It means being prepared to study deep enough to work out what is actually behind what, on the surface, may seem cruel and despotic, and are often taken that way by shallow minded people.

But the point is that this is the issue which has caused this system to become as rotten and self destructive as it has, the issue of trust.

Satan said that no-one would serve God under pressure or without some reward. So far you are, from your argumentation, arguing Satan's case, whereas I am arguing God's.

I know he can be trusted. He has proved that to me so many times, in so many ways, in the present as well as in the distant, very distant, past.

I also know that a short cut to the New World God has planned, though renewed world is more accurate, is a gain not a loss, which is what most see it as, especially those who don't believe n, or trust in God, and even worse, those who have allowed themselves to be misled by Apostate teachers such as Annanicole.

So in the end, it all boils down to this.

If you love your fellow man as yourself, and that means all your fellow men not just your allies, you will not kill him or her.

If you are obedient to Christ and love your enemy, you will not, cannot kill him.

Simple as really. You can justify Satan's stand as much as you like, and Satan makes it easy for you to do so, or you can learn to trust God by getting to know how trustworthy he really is and live eternally, though maybe not long in this system.

Am I worried about death for myself or my loved ones?

Do I worry about them going to sleep at night?

No, I do neither, and death as we know it at present is nothing more than a dreamless sleep, from which we shall be awoken, if God sees fit, in God's due time.

That's not an excuse for killing others, though if you do it is certain that you are giving them a free pass. Nor is it an excuse for cheating for yourself or your loved ones, because cheats, as they say, never prosper.

No, it is a reason to be faithful to God, knowing that if the worst does happen, he has your back.

At some point Mad, we'll simply start talking past one another. You certainly speak from a genuinely held and supportable belief system based on structure. The problem is that so do I.

This is where diversity of tough and opinion is going to come into play. To those who read Romans, and see the necessity of the state, who understand governance and its requirement, who understand that not all men are good men ... then they cannot be pure pacifists. The harm that a man, whether by his own choice or the influence of the adversary, does to himself when he vents evil is immense. Both to himself and others.

If one truly loves his fellow man, that he understands the importance of prosperity and peace. Of making and enforcing laws, of establishing a logistics system, engineering, etc. none of that can happen when we are worried about Attila the Hun showing up and wrecking it. God is a God of order, not chaos, and, though we do not choose it, sometimes the adversary does.

Wars are fought even in Heaven.

Wisdom is the main requirement, for the use and avoidance of violence must first and foremost be about others.
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/9/2014 5:49:12 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/9/2014 5:25:52 AM, neutral wrote:
At 9/9/2014 4:07:01 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 9/8/2014 4:03:49 PM, neutral wrote:
At 9/8/2014 3:34:27 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:


Again, I see where you are coming from, but again you are thinking precisely along the lines Satan wants you to because you are echoing his lie to Even which was basically "you can't trust God, you can't leave it to him".

You say you can kill because you love your fellow man and yet it would be your fellow man you are killing. How is that showing love for him? Christ did go as far as saying "love your enemy" if you kill him, you aren't loving him.

We can discuss it all day, but as long as you think in Satan's terms and not God's you will never get it.

The simple answer is precisely as Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego laid it out to King Nebuchadnezzar.

Daniel 3:16-18
16 Shadrach, Meshach, and Abedne"go answered the king: "O Nebuchadnezzar, we have no need to answer you in this matter. 17 If it must be, our God whom we serve is able to rescue us from the burning fiery furnace, O king, and to rescue us from your hand. 18 But even if he does not, let it be known to you, O king, that we will not serve your gods or worship the image of gold that you have set up."

That is the attitude of all who serve God and Christ. We will obey God's commands no matter what.

In these times it is easier because we know we have the resurrection as a protection should the worst, as they say, come to the worst. Since we are all looking forward to what is to come, getting a short cut there through faithfulness to God, either for ourselves or our loved ones, is a bonus not a loss.

God put the life of his own son on the line for us, not to kill, but to be killed. Should we not be prepared to do the same.

Abraham prefigured that by being prepared to do the same, knowing it was more beneficial for his son if he obeyed God than if he refused.

#Of course God doesn't expect us to just trust him blindly. He invites us to learn how worthy of that trust he is, which is why Jesus said that eternal life is all tied up with getting to know both his father, and himself, and by that he meant getting to know them well enough to trust them 100%.

That means study of the bible. It means being prepared to study deep enough to work out what is actually behind what, on the surface, may seem cruel and despotic, and are often taken that way by shallow minded people.

But the point is that this is the issue which has caused this system to become as rotten and self destructive as it has, the issue of trust.

Satan said that no-one would serve God under pressure or without some reward. So far you are, from your argumentation, arguing Satan's case, whereas I am arguing God's.

I know he can be trusted. He has proved that to me so many times, in so many ways, in the present as well as in the distant, very distant, past.

I also know that a short cut to the New World God has planned, though renewed world is more accurate, is a gain not a loss, which is what most see it as, especially those who don't believe n, or trust in God, and even worse, those who have allowed themselves to be misled by Apostate teachers such as Annanicole.

So in the end, it all boils down to this.

If you love your fellow man as yourself, and that means all your fellow men not just your allies, you will not kill him or her.

If you are obedient to Christ and love your enemy, you will not, cannot kill him.

Simple as really. You can justify Satan's stand as much as you like, and Satan makes it easy for you to do so, or you can learn to trust God by getting to know how trustworthy he really is and live eternally, though maybe not long in this system.

Am I worried about death for myself or my loved ones?

Do I worry about them going to sleep at night?

No, I do neither, and death as we know it at present is nothing more than a dreamless sleep, from which we shall be awoken, if God sees fit, in God's due time.

That's not an excuse for killing others, though if you do it is certain that you are giving them a free pass. Nor is it an excuse for cheating for yourself or your loved ones, because cheats, as they say, never prosper.

No, it is a reason to be faithful to God, knowing that if the worst does happen, he has your back.

At some point Mad, we'll simply start talking past one another. You certainly speak from a genuinely held and supportable belief system based on structure. The problem is that so do I.

This is where diversity of tough and opinion is going to come into play. To those who read Romans, and see the necessity of the state, who understand governance and its requirement, who understand that not all men are good men ... then they cannot be pure pacifists. The harm that a man, whether by his own choice or the influence of the adversary, does to himself when he vents evil is immense. Both to himself and others.

If one truly loves his fellow man, that he understands the importance of prosperity and peace. Of making and enforcing laws, of establishing a logistics system, engineering, etc. none of that can happen when we are worried about Attila the Hun showing up and wrecking it. God is a God of order, not chaos, and, though we do not choose it, sometimes the adversary does.

Wars are fought even in Heaven.

Wisdom is the main requirement, for the use and avoidance of violence must first and foremost be about others.

I think we already have.

YEs there has been a war in heaven, but then God has the right to authorise such things, men do not.

If wisdom was truly used violence would never happen, period.

You can't have a war if no-one turns up.
neutral
Posts: 4,478
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/9/2014 6:07:43 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/9/2014 5:49:12 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 9/9/2014 5:25:52 AM, neutral wrote:
At 9/9/2014 4:07:01 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 9/8/2014 4:03:49 PM, neutral wrote:
At 9/8/2014 3:34:27 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:


Again, I see where you are coming from, but again you are thinking precisely along the lines Satan wants you to because you are echoing his lie to Even which was basically "you can't trust God, you can't leave it to him".

You say you can kill because you love your fellow man and yet it would be your fellow man you are killing. How is that showing love for him? Christ did go as far as saying "love your enemy" if you kill him, you aren't loving him.

We can discuss it all day, but as long as you think in Satan's terms and not God's you will never get it.

The simple answer is precisely as Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego laid it out to King Nebuchadnezzar.

Daniel 3:16-18
16 Shadrach, Meshach, and Abedne"go answered the king: "O Nebuchadnezzar, we have no need to answer you in this matter. 17 If it must be, our God whom we serve is able to rescue us from the burning fiery furnace, O king, and to rescue us from your hand. 18 But even if he does not, let it be known to you, O king, that we will not serve your gods or worship the image of gold that you have set up."

That is the attitude of all who serve God and Christ. We will obey God's commands no matter what.

In these times it is easier because we know we have the resurrection as a protection should the worst, as they say, come to the worst. Since we are all looking forward to what is to come, getting a short cut there through faithfulness to God, either for ourselves or our loved ones, is a bonus not a loss.

God put the life of his own son on the line for us, not to kill, but to be killed. Should we not be prepared to do the same.

Abraham prefigured that by being prepared to do the same, knowing it was more beneficial for his son if he obeyed God than if he refused.

#Of course God doesn't expect us to just trust him blindly. He invites us to learn how worthy of that trust he is, which is why Jesus said that eternal life is all tied up with getting to know both his father, and himself, and by that he meant getting to know them well enough to trust them 100%.

That means study of the bible. It means being prepared to study deep enough to work out what is actually behind what, on the surface, may seem cruel and despotic, and are often taken that way by shallow minded people.

But the point is that this is the issue which has caused this system to become as rotten and self destructive as it has, the issue of trust.

Satan said that no-one would serve God under pressure or without some reward. So far you are, from your argumentation, arguing Satan's case, whereas I am arguing God's.

I know he can be trusted. He has proved that to me so many times, in so many ways, in the present as well as in the distant, very distant, past.

I also know that a short cut to the New World God has planned, though renewed world is more accurate, is a gain not a loss, which is what most see it as, especially those who don't believe n, or trust in God, and even worse, those who have allowed themselves to be misled by Apostate teachers such as Annanicole.

So in the end, it all boils down to this.

If you love your fellow man as yourself, and that means all your fellow men not just your allies, you will not kill him or her.

If you are obedient to Christ and love your enemy, you will not, cannot kill him.

Simple as really. You can justify Satan's stand as much as you like, and Satan makes it easy for you to do so, or you can learn to trust God by getting to know how trustworthy he really is and live eternally, though maybe not long in this system.

Am I worried about death for myself or my loved ones?

Do I worry about them going to sleep at night?

No, I do neither, and death as we know it at present is nothing more than a dreamless sleep, from which we shall be awoken, if God sees fit, in God's due time.

That's not an excuse for killing others, though if you do it is certain that you are giving them a free pass. Nor is it an excuse for cheating for yourself or your loved ones, because cheats, as they say, never prosper.

No, it is a reason to be faithful to God, knowing that if the worst does happen, he has your back.

At some point Mad, we'll simply start talking past one another. You certainly speak from a genuinely held and supportable belief system based on structure. The problem is that so do I.

This is where diversity of tough and opinion is going to come into play. To those who read Romans, and see the necessity of the state, who understand governance and its requirement, who understand that not all men are good men ... then they cannot be pure pacifists. The harm that a man, whether by his own choice or the influence of the adversary, does to himself when he vents evil is immense. Both to himself and others.

If one truly loves his fellow man, that he understands the importance of prosperity and peace. Of making and enforcing laws, of establishing a logistics system, engineering, etc. none of that can happen when we are worried about Attila the Hun showing up and wrecking it. God is a God of order, not chaos, and, though we do not choose it, sometimes the adversary does.

Wars are fought even in Heaven.

Wisdom is the main requirement, for the use and avoidance of violence must first and foremost be about others.

I think we already have.

YEs there has been a war in heaven, but then God has the right to authorise such things, men do not.

If wisdom was truly used violence would never happen, period.

You can't have a war if no-one turns up.

Not all men are wise, and wise men know this :-)
bulproof
Posts: 25,296
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/9/2014 6:31:04 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
So how does christianity solve the difference between you two?

Is it possible that a belief in killing for god can be reconciled with a belief that killing is never approved by god?

Interesting dilemma for two "christians"? Don't you think?
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/9/2014 6:44:06 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/9/2014 6:31:04 AM, bulproof wrote:
So how does christianity solve the difference between you two?

Is it possible that a belief in killing for god can be reconciled with a belief that killing is never approved by god?

Interesting dilemma for two "christians"? Don't you think?

Christianity doesn't solve the difference between us, it teaches exactly as I have said, people eitehr accept that or they don't. I cannot change the truth for anyone, nor would I want to.

Unfortunately, only one of us can truly be Christian. I leave God and Christ to judge me, and they know I am doing my best to comply with all their requirements and especially to make sure I know what their requirements are. After that, it is up to them completely, and they have my full trust.
neutral
Posts: 4,478
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/9/2014 6:57:21 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/9/2014 6:31:04 AM, bulproof wrote:
So how does christianity solve the difference between you two?

Is it possible that a belief in killing for god can be reconciled with a belief that killing is never approved by god?

Interesting dilemma for two "christians"? Don't you think?

By having separate denominations that allow men to honestly follow their conscience. As the ARGUMENTS are made (unlike the trollish accusations you hurl), people will decide for themselves. The is kind of the reason argumentation is there - and you will not the ability of mad and I to be passionate about of ideas while still maintaining a healthy respect for one another? Oddly absent in ALL your diatribal nonsense.

A couple of things should also be noted here:

#1 - the difference in position is not that great. Neither of us states that violence is 'right', where we disagree is whether or not violence is sometimes necessary, and then, only as an absolute last option.

It comes down to a choice as to whether you feel its better to maintain order that others may prosper, or whether the sacred nature of human life is paramount and supersedes all other requirements.

#2 - The position is not static.

A classic example would be Sergeant York, who waffles back and forth between pacifism but winds up one of the most decorated Soldiers in WWI.

Other pacifists have served as medics, where the apply treatment to wounded from all sides.

Still others have been combatants, seen the horror of war, and have concluded that pacifism is the only way.

There is no static position on this issue. Men will grow with experience one way or the other. IMHO, BOTH are necessary, there must be those who meet the needs of society, and there must be those who are an example of pacifism. There will always be violent men who achieve results with violence, but the quiet reality of the pacifist often helps far more people for a much longer period of time.

The answer? Is in what you decide and are wiling to take to Christ.
bulproof
Posts: 25,296
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/9/2014 7:43:40 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/9/2014 6:57:21 AM, neutral wrote:
At 9/9/2014 6:31:04 AM, bulproof wrote:
So how does christianity solve the difference between you two?

Is it possible that a belief in killing for god can be reconciled with a belief that killing is never approved by god?

Interesting dilemma for two "christians"? Don't you think?

By having separate denominations that allow men to honestly follow their conscience. As the ARGUMENTS are made (unlike the trollish accusations you hurl), people will decide for themselves. The is kind of the reason argumentation is there - and you will not the ability of mad and I to be passionate about of ideas while still maintaining a healthy respect for one another? Oddly absent in ALL your diatribal nonsense.
According to the bible, men have only one choice and that is to follow the word of god. The conscience of man is a very faulty device when controlled by satan as you and your god claim.
A couple of things should also be noted here:

#1 - the difference in position is not that great. Neither of us states that violence is 'right', where we disagree is whether or not violence is sometimes necessary, and then, only as an absolute last option.
No, where you disagree is how god views those actions. You claim that GOD demands the death of your enemies and madman claims that he doesn't. Can your god produce mutually exclusive messages and still be a god?
It comes down to a choice as to whether you feel its better to maintain order that others may prosper, or whether the sacred nature of human life is paramount and supersedes all other requirements.
So in your christianity the sacred nature of human life is secondary to ORDER. I don't think that is ever extolled in your book?
#2 - The position is not static.
God's morality is ever changing? I thought his morality was OBJECTIVE and therefore unchangeable?
A classic example would be Sergeant York, who waffles back and forth between pacifism but winds up one of the most decorated Soldiers in WWI.
Who the hell is sargeant york?
Other pacifists have served as medics, where the apply treatment to wounded from all sides.
Meaningless in relation to the discussion!
Still others have been combatants, seen the horror of war, and have concluded that pacifism is the only way.
See above!
There is no static position on this issue. Men will grow with experience one way or the other. IMHO, BOTH are necessary, there must be those who meet the needs of society, and there must be those who are an example of pacifism. There will always be violent men who achieve results with violence, but the quiet reality of the pacifist often helps far more people for a much longer period of time.
You are a willing to accept the violence you commit and then claim that it's other violent men who commit violence.
The answer? Is in what you decide and are wiling to take to Christ.

The answer is that the bible provides so many conflicting positions on murder and all other human abuses that the bible believers can't actually determine what it is their god wants them to do.

So they concoct it as they go and they are never wrong because the god of their book in FACT commands them to do everything within the human capacity.
neutral
Posts: 4,478
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/9/2014 7:50:32 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/9/2014 7:43:40 AM, bulproof wrote:


The answer is that the bible provides so many conflicting positions on murder and all other human abuses that the bible believers can't actually determine what it is their god wants them to do.


Thanks for the totally unsupported, lame, stupid bigotry based on nothing but your prejudices and misconceptions of someone's else faith.

This is why no one wants to talk to you, all you do is bash other people's faith from a position of total ignorance and abject stupidity.

Do you make an ethical statement about the use of violence or pacifism?

Of course not you are troll. And two Christians disagreeing respectfully means the entire Bible is screwed up - THAT is the point that this flame baiting douche wanted to make?

And atheists, apparently so smart they can't make a relevant comment on the topic, are so stupid that the only thing they thing addressed the use of violence is to say how stupid using the Bible is? Even though you have two well defined positions Pacifism and the Just War Doctrine ... this douche wants to stand there are pretend that its best to wrestle with ethical questions by basically calling everyone else stupid.

Thanks for another display of wanton stupidity and abuse, where atheists think the contribution to ethical discussion to bad mouth other people's faith in total ignorance. And they cannot figure out why people don't want to interact with someone whose sole 'contribution' is a vacuous insult to our faith with absolutely no commentary of substance on the issue at hand.

That is what we need, continuous comments from a troll about how stupid everyone else is ... but not him ... even as he offers absolutely nothing to the discussion.

And Oxford hasn't scooped this guy up? Say it ain't so? I mean would the atheists on the forum even let him go?
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/9/2014 7:51:04 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/9/2014 6:57:21 AM, neutral wrote:
At 9/9/2014 6:31:04 AM, bulproof wrote:
So how does christianity solve the difference between you two?

Is it possible that a belief in killing for god can be reconciled with a belief that killing is never approved by god?

Interesting dilemma for two "christians"? Don't you think?

By having separate denominations that allow men to honestly follow their conscience. As the ARGUMENTS are made (unlike the trollish accusations you hurl), people will decide for themselves. The is kind of the reason argumentation is there - and you will not the ability of mad and I to be passionate about of ideas while still maintaining a healthy respect for one another? Oddly absent in ALL your diatribal nonsense.

A couple of things should also be noted here:

#1 - the difference in position is not that great. Neither of us states that violence is 'right', where we disagree is whether or not violence is sometimes necessary, and then, only as an absolute last option.

It comes down to a choice as to whether you feel its better to maintain order that others may prosper, or whether the sacred nature of human life is paramount and supersedes all other requirements.

#2 - The position is not static.

A classic example would be Sergeant York, who waffles back and forth between pacifism but winds up one of the most decorated Soldiers in WWI.

Other pacifists have served as medics, where the apply treatment to wounded from all sides.

Still others have been combatants, seen the horror of war, and have concluded that pacifism is the only way.

There is no static position on this issue. Men will grow with experience one way or the other. IMHO, BOTH are necessary, there must be those who meet the needs of society, and there must be those who are an example of pacifism. There will always be violent men who achieve results with violence, but the quiet reality of the pacifist often helps far more people for a much longer period of time.

The answer? Is in what you decide and are wiling to take to Christ.

Except only one can possibly have God's approval, because there is only One True God, only one Christ, and only one truth. We will be judged on the effort we have made to find and stick by the right one, as scripture tells us.
neutral
Posts: 4,478
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/9/2014 7:55:49 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/9/2014 7:51:04 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:

Except only one can possibly have God's approval, because there is only One True God, only one Christ, and only one truth. We will be judged on the effort we have made to find and stick by the right one, as scripture tells us.

There we disagree. There is more than one way to the top of a mountain, and I seriously doubt that only Jesus gets into heaven.

I agree that we will be judged on our desire to seek and follow truth, but I disagree that all men must see it exactly the same way. God's Plan of Salvation makes clear that we ARE HERE to learn. Is we get to a point where we think we have it all figured out? We are probably in error.

Any man earnestly seeking God will not be rejected by God. That would not in the character of the God revealed in the Bible.

The bottom line: God said to eschew violence, but he also tells us to govern and be good stewards.

People must make up their minds. In the end, if we honestly wrong ... we will not be sent to hell.
ThinkFirst
Posts: 1,391
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/9/2014 8:03:32 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/8/2014 11:58:33 AM, neutral wrote:
At 9/8/2014 11:02:00 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
Matthew10:32-39
32 Every one therefore who shall confess me before men, him will I also confess before my Father who is in heaven. 33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father who is in heaven. 34 Think not that I came to send peace on the earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. 35 For I came to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law: 36 and a mans foes shall be they of his own household. 37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. 38 And he that doth not take his cross and follow after me, is not worthy of me. 39 He that findeth his life shall lose it; and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.

That's Christianity for you, according to Christ himself.

Are you up for it?

Are you prepared to sacrifice your loved ones for the sake of being obedient to Christ?

Don;t like it?

Don't blame you, but it isn't the fault of God or Christ. It is the fault of Satan who can all too easily put us in a position where we have to make that sort of decision, to let our loved ones die rather than break faith with God, so if you want to blame anyone, blame Satan, and defy him so he doesn't win in your case.

Satan can cause men who take the lives of other men, but only God can restore that life in due time, and if we remain faithful he will, and if our loved ones die because of our faithfulness he will restore them also.

Such has always been the lot of true Christians. It tends not to happen often to Apostates because Satan already has them in his pocket so why should he worry about them. But anyone who sticks his head above the herd becomes an instant target.

Those Apostates and false religionists Satan does have threatened that way are not a problem, he knows they will cave in and give a poor example to others.

This does not address Luke brother.

Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. 2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation. 3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same: 4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil. 5 Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake. 6 For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing. 7 Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honor. (Luke 13:1-7)

Additionally:

But if any provide not for his own, and especially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith and is worse than an infidel. (1 Timothy 5: 8)

If a thief be found breaking up, and be smitten that he die, there shall no blood be shed for him. (Exodus 22:2)


Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. 35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. 36 And a man's foes shall be they of his own household. 37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. 38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me. 39 He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it. (Matthew 10:34-39)

We must also remember that Jesus comes to fulfill the law:

"But if the watchman see the sword come, and blow not the trumpet, and the people be not warned; if the sword come, and take any person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at the watchman's hand." (Ezekiel 33:6)

The result of this, a doctrine that encompasses both Old and New Testaments, is known as the Just War Doctrine.

The strict conditions for legitimate defense by military force require rigorous consideration. The gravity of such a decision makes it subject to rigorous conditions of moral legitimacy. At one and the same time: the damage inflicted by the aggressor on the nation or community of nations must be lasting, grave, and certain; all other means of putting an end to it must have been shown to be impractical or ineffective;
there must be serious prospects of success; the use of arms must not produce evils and disorders graver than the evil to be eliminated. The power of modern means of destruction weighs very heavily in evaluating this condition.

http://www.catholic.com...

I think it's funny that the catholic church writes an article on "Just War Doctrine" after the crusades and the inquisitions.
"Never attribute to villainy that which can be adequately explained by stupidity"
-----
"Men rarely if ever dream up a god superior to themselves. Most gods have the manners and morals of a spoiled child. "

-- Robert A Heinlein
neutral
Posts: 4,478
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/9/2014 8:10:33 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/9/2014 8:03:32 AM, ThinkFirst wrote:


I think it's funny that the catholic church writes an article on "Just War Doctrine" after the crusades and the inquisitions.

And why is that? If you've EVER done something wrong, you can't lean from it an promulgate better guidance? Fallacious much?

Atheist write ethical things, ever after your Scions, two at least, vomited out calls for genocide against Muslims.

Seems Catholics look at history and learn lessons, and were very much against the Iraq and Afghan War, urged us to stay clear of of Syria (Which sen great advice now) ..

... and what did atheists do? Bomb the monkey Muslims? Seriously, that is Hitchens and Harris. Where is your commentary about the use of violence now?

Wouldn't it be nice if atheists actually used their brains occasionally and discussed the topic rather than pretended dragging in the Crusades, but not the Cultural Revolution, into a discussion was helpful.

Can atheists discuss a subject without the silly, comically staid and dogmatic, dragging in of standard atheist criticism posts ...