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Is a statue of p**** Satan free speech?

jh1234l
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9/11/2014 10:58:25 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
A statue of Satan depicted with a giant male genitalia appeared in a park recently, and after it was removed by the city.

http://www.torontosun.com...

Now, people are petitioning to have it back. Is THIS what free speech and religion is all about? Adding a statue of Satan with a giant male genitalia in a public park? It's not what freedom of religion is intended for, right?

http://www.change.org...
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1 square right of Nelson Mandela, 2 squares down from Francois Hollande
Installgentoo
Posts: 1,420
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9/12/2014 3:57:25 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/11/2014 10:58:25 PM, jh1234l wrote:
A statue of Satan depicted with a giant male genitalia appeared in a park recently, and after it was removed by the city.

http://www.torontosun.com...

Now, people are petitioning to have it back. Is THIS what free speech and religion is all about? Adding a statue of Satan with a giant male genitalia in a public park? It's not what freedom of religion is intended for, right?

Canada doesn't have freedom of religion. You're not America. If there are more Christians than hard-core autist atheists then the statue will have to remain gone :)
neutral
Posts: 4,478
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9/12/2014 4:10:14 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/11/2014 10:58:25 PM, jh1234l wrote:
A statue of Satan depicted with a giant male genitalia appeared in a park recently, and after it was removed by the city.

http://www.torontosun.com...

Now, people are petitioning to have it back. Is THIS what free speech and religion is all about? Adding a statue of Satan with a giant male genitalia in a public park? It's not what freedom of religion is intended for, right?

http://www.change.org...

I think the genetalia might be the bigger issue. And then there is the idea of 'extremism'. Satan would be akin to placing a giant statue of Osama Bin Laden, who also has followers, in the middle of NYC.

Some things just don't fly. A city can choose whether or not to deliberately offend a great many people. Simply put, those who covort with demons probably are not the biggest victims out there.
Otokage
Posts: 2,347
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9/12/2014 5:45:30 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/11/2014 10:58:25 PM, jh1234l wrote:
A statue of Satan depicted with a giant male genitalia appeared in a park recently, and after it was removed by the city.

http://www.torontosun.com...

Now, people are petitioning to have it back. Is THIS what free speech and religion is all about? Adding a statue of Satan with a giant male genitalia in a public park? It's not what freedom of religion is intended for, right?

http://www.change.org...

I think there's nothing wrong with the statue being Satan. Satan is not Osama Bin Laden btw, but a fictitious character that hardy can be considered worse than God. Moreover, satanism is not a violent/disrespectful religion, unlike radical islam.

I also think the main problem would be the genitalia, not because a penis is shown, but because it is shown in a sexual provocation manner, and sexual provocation is ilegal.
LogicalLunatic
Posts: 1,633
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9/12/2014 7:56:56 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/11/2014 10:58:25 PM, jh1234l wrote:
A statue of Satan depicted with a giant male genitalia appeared in a park recently, and after it was removed by the city.

http://www.torontosun.com...

Now, people are petitioning to have it back. Is THIS what free speech and religion is all about? Adding a statue of Satan with a giant male genitalia in a public park? It's not what freedom of religion is intended for, right?

http://www.change.org...

The depiction of male genitalia is not protected under freedom of speech.
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boss1592
Posts: 80
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9/12/2014 8:10:42 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/12/2014 3:57:25 AM, Installgentoo wrote:
At 9/11/2014 10:58:25 PM, jh1234l wrote:
A statue of Satan depicted with a giant male genitalia appeared in a park recently, and after it was removed by the city.

http://www.torontosun.com...

Now, people are petitioning to have it back. Is THIS what free speech and religion is all about? Adding a statue of Satan with a giant male genitalia in a public park? It's not what freedom of religion is intended for, right?

Canada doesn't have freedom of religion. You're not America. If there are more Christians than hard-core autist atheists then the statue will have to remain gone :)

Autist atheists?
neutral
Posts: 4,478
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9/12/2014 8:29:09 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/12/2014 5:45:30 AM, Otokage wrote:
At 9/11/2014 10:58:25 PM, jh1234l wrote:
A statue of Satan depicted with a giant male genitalia appeared in a park recently, and after it was removed by the city.

http://www.torontosun.com...

Now, people are petitioning to have it back. Is THIS what free speech and religion is all about? Adding a statue of Satan with a giant male genitalia in a public park? It's not what freedom of religion is intended for, right?

http://www.change.org...

I think there's nothing wrong with the statue being Satan. Satan is not Osama Bin Laden btw, but a fictitious character that hardy can be considered worse than God. Moreover, satanism is not a violent/disrespectful religion, unlike radical islam.

I also think the main problem would be the genitalia, not because a penis is shown, but because it is shown in a sexual provocation manner, and sexual provocation is ilegal.

Whether ficticious or not, he is the representation of evil. It'd by like putting a statute of Stalin strangling atheists up - or someone raping a baby. If you want to go form your own town dedicated to evil ... sure. Toronto? Some people don't want evil shoved in their faces. Its hard to say a community needs to embrace the display of evil as a matter of 'freedom'. There are limits to tolerance of community standards, and valid religions all have a space at that table - people dedicated to evil? Not so sure that falls into the 'rights of the minority against the tyrannical majority'.

If we look to legal standards of moral depravity, the same that prevents gratuitous sexuality and violence, Satan and what he represents would probably fall within that category.

Besides, let's face facts. Satan, to three MAJOR world religions IS evil. You can put it out there, but its only a matter of time before someone rips it down and smelts it. You can talk legality all you want, but few communities indeed will tolerate evil shoved in their face - and no town is going to fork over continuous funds for a guard force of what is essentially thumbing your nose at the community.

You can sing all you want - eventually that statue will walk and the question is whether, given the appeals to imagination, we wish to ignore the reality that this statue simply would not last that long.
Otokage
Posts: 2,347
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9/12/2014 8:45:47 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/12/2014 8:29:09 AM, neutral wrote:
At 9/12/2014 5:45:30 AM, Otokage wrote:
At 9/11/2014 10:58:25 PM, jh1234l wrote:
A statue of Satan depicted with a giant male genitalia appeared in a park recently, and after it was removed by the city.

http://www.torontosun.com...

Now, people are petitioning to have it back. Is THIS what free speech and religion is all about? Adding a statue of Satan with a giant male genitalia in a public park? It's not what freedom of religion is intended for, right?

http://www.change.org...

I think there's nothing wrong with the statue being Satan. Satan is not Osama Bin Laden btw, but a fictitious character that hardy can be considered worse than God. Moreover, satanism is not a violent/disrespectful religion, unlike radical islam.

I also think the main problem would be the genitalia, not because a penis is shown, but because it is shown in a sexual provocation manner, and sexual provocation is ilegal.

Whether ficticious or not, he is the representation of evil. It'd by like putting a statute of Stalin strangling atheists up - or someone raping a baby. If you want to go form your own town dedicated to evil ... sure. Toronto? Some people don't want evil shoved in their faces. Its hard to say a community needs to embrace the display of evil as a matter of 'freedom'. There are limits to tolerance of community standards, and valid religions all have a space at that table - people dedicated to evil? Not so sure that falls into the 'rights of the minority against the tyrannical majority'.

But it is a key fact that he is fictitious. Because you don't have any actual evidence to label Satan as "evil". According to satanists, and maybe to some more people, Satan is not "evil", and I don't think you (or anyone) can say he is more evil than God and get away with it. He is not.

If we look to legal standards of moral depravity, the same that prevents gratuitous sexuality and violence, Satan and what he represents would probably fall within that category.

What does he represent? Merely opposition, anything beyond that? Hardly demonstrable. Opposition is not evil.

Besides, let's face facts. Satan, to three MAJOR world religions IS evil. You can put it out there, but its only a matter of time before someone rips it down and smelts it. You can talk legality all you want, but few communities indeed will tolerate evil shoved in their face - and no town is going to fork over continuous funds for a guard force of what is essentially thumbing your nose at the community.

Religion or the amount of religious people, should not be taken into account as a way to label something as evil or impose any moral judgement on a symbol. Although I agree that if Toronto does not want the statue, whatever the reason, they should remove it.

You can sing all you want - eventually that statue will walk and the question is whether, given the appeals to imagination, we wish to ignore the reality that this statue simply would not last that long.

Probably.
neutral
Posts: 4,478
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9/12/2014 9:04:14 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/12/2014 8:45:47 AM, Otokage wrote:
At 9/12/2014 8:29:09 AM, neutral wrote:
At 9/12/2014 5:45:30 AM, Otokage wrote:
At 9/11/2014 10:58:25 PM, jh1234l wrote:
A statue of Satan depicted with a giant male genitalia appeared in a park recently, and after it was removed by the city.

http://www.torontosun.com...

Now, people are petitioning to have it back. Is THIS what free speech and religion is all about? Adding a statue of Satan with a giant male genitalia in a public park? It's not what freedom of religion is intended for, right?

http://www.change.org...

I think there's nothing wrong with the statue being Satan. Satan is not Osama Bin Laden btw, but a fictitious character that hardy can be considered worse than God. Moreover, satanism is not a violent/disrespectful religion, unlike radical islam.

I also think the main problem would be the genitalia, not because a penis is shown, but because it is shown in a sexual provocation manner, and sexual provocation is ilegal.

Whether ficticious or not, he is the representation of evil. It'd by like putting a statute of Stalin strangling atheists up - or someone raping a baby. If you want to go form your own town dedicated to evil ... sure. Toronto? Some people don't want evil shoved in their faces. Its hard to say a community needs to embrace the display of evil as a matter of 'freedom'. There are limits to tolerance of community standards, and valid religions all have a space at that table - people dedicated to evil? Not so sure that falls into the 'rights of the minority against the tyrannical majority'.

But it is a key fact that he is fictitious. Because you don't have any actual evidence to label Satan as "evil". According to satanists, and maybe to some more people, Satan is not "evil", and I don't think you (or anyone) can say he is more evil than God and get away with it. He is not.

If we look to legal standards of moral depravity, the same that prevents gratuitous sexuality and violence, Satan and what he represents would probably fall within that category.

What does he represent? Merely opposition, anything beyond that? Hardly demonstrable. Opposition is not evil.

Besides, let's face facts. Satan, to three MAJOR world religions IS evil. You can put it out there, but its only a matter of time before someone rips it down and smelts it. You can talk legality all you want, but few communities indeed will tolerate evil shoved in their face - and no town is going to fork over continuous funds for a guard force of what is essentially thumbing your nose at the community.

Religion or the amount of religious people, should not be taken into account as a way to label something as evil or impose any moral judgement on a symbol. Although I agree that if Toronto does not want the statue, whatever the reason, they should remove it.

You can sing all you want - eventually that statue will walk and the question is whether, given the appeals to imagination, we wish to ignore the reality that this statue simply would not last that long.

Probably.

Satan represents more than mere opposition to God. Its a bit more involved than I disgree. Muslims say that - all other religions say that to some extent, and no one really cares in a secular society. Satan is a creature of Abrahamic theology, and that YOU deny what is written and inderstood does not mean the adherents to the religion will agree with your assessment of their theology - I certainly don't, and I doubt any serious Christian takes someone attempting enslave man and undermine God at all costs, having earned such monikers as 'Most Unclean' and 'Father of Lies' as simple disagreement.

In the end, you seem to acknowledge that with the 'Probably'.

A community of religious people will not allow itself to essentially be permenantly flipped off. If I wre to place a statute on property I owned, and yet prominent viewed through your front window of a man pooping out an image of you ... the intent of the action would be quite clear, and both free speech and private property rights would not preclude you from removing what would essentially be continuous harassment from your view. Same principle applies.

At some point, I would wager you and a few of your close friends would just take the damn thing down.

Again, as nice as the legal debate might be, the reality is the statue would not long be tolerated. Most Satanists I have met are far to vain to be caught standing guard in front of a statue anyway.

Along with is it legal, we should be asking whether or not it is practicable. There are legimate rights to minorities that MUST be protected. Deiberately thumbing your nose at people is not one of them.
Installgentoo
Posts: 1,420
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9/12/2014 12:56:15 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/12/2014 8:10:42 AM, boss1592 wrote:
At 9/12/2014 3:57:25 AM, Installgentoo wrote:
At 9/11/2014 10:58:25 PM, jh1234l wrote:
A statue of Satan depicted with a giant male genitalia appeared in a park recently, and after it was removed by the city.

http://www.torontosun.com...

Now, people are petitioning to have it back. Is THIS what free speech and religion is all about? Adding a statue of Satan with a giant male genitalia in a public park? It's not what freedom of religion is intended for, right?

Canada doesn't have freedom of religion. You're not America. If there are more Christians than hard-core autist atheists then the statue will have to remain gone :)

Autist atheists?

Atheism is linked to autism.
RoderickSpode
Posts: 2,372
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9/12/2014 1:13:01 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/12/2014 5:45:30 AM, Otokage wrote:
At 9/11/2014 10:58:25 PM, jh1234l wrote:
A statue of Satan depicted with a giant male genitalia appeared in a park recently, and after it was removed by the city.

http://www.torontosun.com...

Now, people are petitioning to have it back. Is THIS what free speech and religion is all about? Adding a statue of Satan with a giant male genitalia in a public park? It's not what freedom of religion is intended for, right?

http://www.change.org...

I think there's nothing wrong with the statue being Satan. Satan is not Osama Bin Laden btw, but a fictitious character that hardy can be considered worse than God. Moreover, satanism is not a violent/disrespectful religion, unlike radical islam.

This is not exactly correct. You're probably referring to Laveyan Satanism. There are theistic satanists that are quite violent (some notable ones in prison), and consequently disrespectful.
Otokage
Posts: 2,347
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9/12/2014 6:47:38 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/12/2014 9:04:14 AM, neutral wrote:
At 9/12/2014 8:45:47 AM, Otokage wrote:
At 9/12/2014 8:29:09 AM, neutral wrote:
At 9/12/2014 5:45:30 AM, Otokage wrote:
At 9/11/2014 10:58:25 PM, jh1234l wrote:
A statue of Satan depicted with a giant male genitalia appeared in a park recently, and after it was removed by the city.

http://www.torontosun.com...

Now, people are petitioning to have it back. Is THIS what free speech and religion is all about? Adding a statue of Satan with a giant male genitalia in a public park? It's not what freedom of religion is intended for, right?

http://www.change.org...

I think there's nothing wrong with the statue being Satan. Satan is not Osama Bin Laden btw, but a fictitious character that hardy can be considered worse than God. Moreover, satanism is not a violent/disrespectful religion, unlike radical islam.

I also think the main problem would be the genitalia, not because a penis is shown, but because it is shown in a sexual provocation manner, and sexual provocation is ilegal.

Whether ficticious or not, he is the representation of evil. It'd by like putting a statute of Stalin strangling atheists up - or someone raping a baby. If you want to go form your own town dedicated to evil ... sure. Toronto? Some people don't want evil shoved in their faces. Its hard to say a community needs to embrace the display of evil as a matter of 'freedom'. There are limits to tolerance of community standards, and valid religions all have a space at that table - people dedicated to evil? Not so sure that falls into the 'rights of the minority against the tyrannical majority'.

But it is a key fact that he is fictitious. Because you don't have any actual evidence to label Satan as "evil". According to satanists, and maybe to some more people, Satan is not "evil", and I don't think you (or anyone) can say he is more evil than God and get away with it. He is not.

If we look to legal standards of moral depravity, the same that prevents gratuitous sexuality and violence, Satan and what he represents would probably fall within that category.

What does he represent? Merely opposition, anything beyond that? Hardly demonstrable. Opposition is not evil.

Besides, let's face facts. Satan, to three MAJOR world religions IS evil. You can put it out there, but its only a matter of time before someone rips it down and smelts it. You can talk legality all you want, but few communities indeed will tolerate evil shoved in their face - and no town is going to fork over continuous funds for a guard force of what is essentially thumbing your nose at the community.

Religion or the amount of religious people, should not be taken into account as a way to label something as evil or impose any moral judgement on a symbol. Although I agree that if Toronto does not want the statue, whatever the reason, they should remove it.

You can sing all you want - eventually that statue will walk and the question is whether, given the appeals to imagination, we wish to ignore the reality that this statue simply would not last that long.

Probably.

Satan represents more than mere opposition to God. Its a bit more involved than I disgree. Muslims say that - all other religions say that to some extent, and no one really cares in a secular society. Satan is a creature of Abrahamic theology, and that YOU deny what is written and inderstood does not mean the adherents to the religion will agree with your assessment of their theology - I certainly don't, and I doubt any serious Christian takes someone attempting enslave man and undermine God at all costs, having earned such monikers as 'Most Unclean' and 'Father of Lies' as simple disagreement.

In the end, you seem to acknowledge that with the 'Probably'.

A community of religious people will not allow itself to essentially be permenantly flipped off. If I wre to place a statute on property I owned, and yet prominent viewed through your front window of a man pooping out an image of you ... the intent of the action would be quite clear, and both free speech and private property rights would not preclude you from removing what would essentially be continuous harassment from your view. Same principle applies.

At some point, I would wager you and a few of your close friends would just take the damn thing down.

Again, as nice as the legal debate might be, the reality is the statue would not long be tolerated. Most Satanists I have met are far to vain to be caught standing guard in front of a statue anyway.

Along with is it legal, we should be asking whether or not it is practicable. There are legimate rights to minorities that MUST be protected. Deiberately thumbing your nose at people is not one of them.

That the statue should be removed if the community there does not tolerate it, is something we can agree. But what interests me is that you seem to think that a statue of Satan in a park is somehow detrimental to society, just because according to your faith, Satan is somehow a symbol of "evil". But why should the statue be considered detrimental just because christians find it offensive? Again satanists, shintoists, etc. may find a statue of Yahweh equally offensive, and the same way you can use abrahamic mythology to label Satan as a villain, they (and there's plenty of threads about it in this forum I'm sure) can label Yahweh as a villain too.

So, apart from being disrespectful to christians, is there any actual reason to consider that statue has a detrimental effect on the park? (apart from the erection, of course)
Otokage
Posts: 2,347
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9/12/2014 6:49:50 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/12/2014 1:13:01 PM, RoderickSpode wrote:
At 9/12/2014 5:45:30 AM, Otokage wrote:
At 9/11/2014 10:58:25 PM, jh1234l wrote:
A statue of Satan depicted with a giant male genitalia appeared in a park recently, and after it was removed by the city.

http://www.torontosun.com...

Now, people are petitioning to have it back. Is THIS what free speech and religion is all about? Adding a statue of Satan with a giant male genitalia in a public park? It's not what freedom of religion is intended for, right?

http://www.change.org...

I think there's nothing wrong with the statue being Satan. Satan is not Osama Bin Laden btw, but a fictitious character that hardy can be considered worse than God. Moreover, satanism is not a violent/disrespectful religion, unlike radical islam.

This is not exactly correct. You're probably referring to Laveyan Satanism. There are theistic satanists that are quite violent (some notable ones in prison), and consequently disrespectful.

Yes, I refer to Laveyan Satanism because that is like the "official" satanism as far as I know, the other are considered less important sects/cults. The same way, christianity has several sects.
neutral
Posts: 4,478
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9/13/2014 3:19:31 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/12/2014 6:47:38 PM, Otokage wrote:


That the statue should be removed if the community there does not tolerate it, is something we can agree. But what interests me is that you seem to think that a statue of Satan in a park is somehow detrimental to society, just because according to your faith, Satan is somehow a symbol of "evil". But why should the statue be considered detrimental just because christians find it offensive? Again satanists, shintoists, etc. may find a statue of Yahweh equally offensive, and the same way you can use abrahamic mythology to label Satan as a villain, they (and there's plenty of threads about it in this forum I'm sure) can label Yahweh as a villain too.

So, apart from being disrespectful to christians, is there any actual reason to consider that statue has a detrimental effect on the park? (apart from the erection, of course)

#1 - Its disrespectful to more than just Christians - Jews (I guess anti-Semitism is fine), Muslims, Ba'hai, Zoroastrians, Christians, and pretty much anyone who understand that Satan is the representation of evil.

#2 - Shintoists don't give a rip about a statute of Jesus. Are they the ones suing Christians? Nope.

#3 - Satanists are indeed offended by Christ. Who cares. They are evil. If they want to run off and form their own community, so be it. But to demand that they be tolerated by the very community they actively seek to undermine against their wishes?

Perhaps you should invite a couple of ISIS members to share your bedroom? Why not? They silly have a diverse opinion than you?

#3 - Its an appeal to evil. DO you think putting a Statute of Osama Bin Laden at ground zero for 9-11 would fly? Why not? There are people who support Al Qaeda after all ... and don't THEY have a right to public speech? No.

For the same reasons that a man's junk is considered obscene, so to is the expectation of tolerance and acceptance of evil by a community.

Again, A statue of Hitler ... ain't gonna fly. But a creature that embodies something far worse than that for the majority of humanity because - you as an atheist - chose to ignore the theological implications of the statue ... and this we should reject our theology?

Sounds like an overt attack on Christianity doesn't it? And that is exactly what Satanists do - and no one has to just stand there and be attacked.

Satanists don't fight for equality, they fight to undermine religions - especially Christianity.
bulproof
Posts: 25,221
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9/13/2014 9:59:15 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/12/2014 12:56:15 PM, Installgentoo wrote:
At 9/12/2014 8:10:42 AM, boss1592 wrote:
At 9/12/2014 3:57:25 AM, Installgentoo wrote:
At 9/11/2014 10:58:25 PM, jh1234l wrote:
A statue of Satan depicted with a giant male genitalia appeared in a park recently, and after it was removed by the city.

http://www.torontosun.com...

Now, people are petitioning to have it back. Is THIS what free speech and religion is all about? Adding a statue of Satan with a giant male genitalia in a public park? It's not what freedom of religion is intended for, right?

Canada doesn't have freedom of religion. You're not America. If there are more Christians than hard-core autist atheists then the statue will have to remain gone :)

Autist atheists?

Atheism is linked to autism.

And how does it feel?
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
SamStevens
Posts: 3,819
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9/13/2014 10:23:10 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/12/2014 12:56:15 PM, Installgentoo wrote:
At 9/12/2014 8:10:42 AM, boss1592 wrote:
At 9/12/2014 3:57:25 AM, Installgentoo wrote:
At 9/11/2014 10:58:25 PM, jh1234l wrote:
A statue of Satan depicted with a giant male genitalia appeared in a park recently, and after it was removed by the city.

http://www.torontosun.com...

Now, people are petitioning to have it back. Is THIS what free speech and religion is all about? Adding a statue of Satan with a giant male genitalia in a public park? It's not what freedom of religion is intended for, right?

Canada doesn't have freedom of religion. You're not America. If there are more Christians than hard-core autist atheists then the statue will have to remain gone :)

Autist atheists?

Atheism is linked to autism.

Are you trolling? I never knew a disbelief in a god links people to autism. I wonder what medical conditions come with not believing in the tooth fairy.
"This is the true horror of religion. It allows perfectly decent and sane people to believe by the billions, what only lunatics could believe on their own." Sam Harris
Life asked Death "Why do people love me but hate you?"
Death responded: "Because you are a beautiful lie, and I am the painful truth."
Installgentoo
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9/13/2014 10:24:43 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/13/2014 9:59:15 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 9/12/2014 12:56:15 PM, Installgentoo wrote:
At 9/12/2014 8:10:42 AM, boss1592 wrote:
At 9/12/2014 3:57:25 AM, Installgentoo wrote:
At 9/11/2014 10:58:25 PM, jh1234l wrote:
A statue of Satan depicted with a giant male genitalia appeared in a park recently, and after it was removed by the city.

http://www.torontosun.com...

Now, people are petitioning to have it back. Is THIS what free speech and religion is all about? Adding a statue of Satan with a giant male genitalia in a public park? It's not what freedom of religion is intended for, right?

Canada doesn't have freedom of religion. You're not America. If there are more Christians than hard-core autist atheists then the statue will have to remain gone :)

Autist atheists?

Atheism is linked to autism.

And how does it feel?

Idk, look in the mirror.
Otokage
Posts: 2,347
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9/13/2014 2:12:43 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/13/2014 3:19:31 AM, neutral wrote:
At 9/12/2014 6:47:38 PM, Otokage wrote:


That the statue should be removed if the community there does not tolerate it, is something we can agree. But what interests me is that you seem to think that a statue of Satan in a park is somehow detrimental to society, just because according to your faith, Satan is somehow a symbol of "evil". But why should the statue be considered detrimental just because christians find it offensive? Again satanists, shintoists, etc. may find a statue of Yahweh equally offensive, and the same way you can use abrahamic mythology to label Satan as a villain, they (and there's plenty of threads about it in this forum I'm sure) can label Yahweh as a villain too.

So, apart from being disrespectful to christians, is there any actual reason to consider that statue has a detrimental effect on the park? (apart from the erection, of course)

#1 - Its disrespectful to more than just Christians - Jews (I guess anti-Semitism is fine), Muslims, Ba'hai, Zoroastrians, Christians, and pretty much anyone who understand that Satan is the representation of evil.

So what about those that do not consider Satan the representation of evil?

Thing is, we are not debating if we should take christians into account while removing the statue, since we both think the same way in this issue. We are debating if the statue is detrimental per se: does it spread hate towards Jewish people like a statue of Hitler? May offend the sensibilitie of children? Does it incite towards violence? The answers may be possitive to some degree, but imo not enough degree to remove the statue, since Yahweh can also be considered a symbol of violence, despotism, genocide, slavery, religious supremacy, crimes of the Inquisition, etc.

#2 - Shintoists don't give a rip about a statute of Jesus. Are they the ones suing Christians? Nope.

It was just an example. Forget shintoists, let's talk about me for example, I don't like statues of Jesus, and thus I want them removed. Since those are not removed, I don't see the issue with a Satan statue either.

#3 - Satanists are indeed offended by Christ. Who cares. They are evil. If they want to run off and form their own community, so be it. But to demand that they be tolerated by the very community they actively seek to undermine against their wishes?

Satanists are not evil, that's like saying christians are evil because inquisition was evil and some popes were corrupt to the bone. You can not label Satanists as evil just because Satanists appearing on the movies or on the mid-day news are crazy devil worshippers that kill little cute children. I have a satanists friend, he is not evil at all.

Perhaps you should invite a couple of ISIS members to share your bedroom? Why not? They silly have a diverse opinion than you?

#3 - Its an appeal to evil. DO you think putting a Statute of Osama Bin Laden at ground zero for 9-11 would fly? Why not? There are people who support Al Qaeda after all ... and don't THEY have a right to public speech? No.

I don't see the point nor the consistency of this comparison.

For the same reasons that a man's junk is considered obscene, so to is the expectation of tolerance and acceptance of evil by a community.

Why is satan more evil than Yahweh?

Again, A statue of Hitler ... ain't gonna fly. But a creature that embodies something far worse than that for the majority of humanity because - you as an atheist - chose to ignore the theological implications of the statue ... and this we should reject our theology?

Sounds like an overt attack on Christianity doesn't it? And that is exactly what Satanists do - and no one has to just stand there and be attacked.

But you are attacking satanists by labeling them as evil. Why do you see a problem when they label you as evil too? Again, who is worst and why: Yahweh or Satan?

Satanists don't fight for equality, they fight to undermine religions - especially Christianity.

I don't think so. Maybe you should elaborate.
neutral
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9/13/2014 2:41:24 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/13/2014 2:12:43 PM, Otokage wrote:

Thing is, we are not debating if we should take christians into account while removing the statue, since we both think the same way in this issue. We are debating if the statue is detrimental per se: does it spread hate towards Jewish people like a statue of Hitler? May offend the sensibilitie of children? Does it incite towards violence? The answers may be possitive to some degree, but imo not enough degree to remove the statue, since Yahweh can also be considered a symbol of violence, despotism, genocide, slavery, religious supremacy, crimes of the Inquisition, etc.


Yeah. That is exactly what Satan represents.

Please, think of the thing that would most offend and piss you off, and imagine someone putting a statue of it in the middle of your front lawn. Congrats, now you understand Satan.

Thie Inquisition does not justify continued evil - quite the opposite.
Beastt
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9/13/2014 3:02:37 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/12/2014 3:57:25 AM, Installgentoo wrote:
At 9/11/2014 10:58:25 PM, jh1234l wrote:
A statue of Satan depicted with a giant male genitalia appeared in a park recently, and after it was removed by the city.

http://www.torontosun.com...

Now, people are petitioning to have it back. Is THIS what free speech and religion is all about? Adding a statue of Satan with a giant male genitalia in a public park? It's not what freedom of religion is intended for, right?

Canada doesn't have freedom of religion. You're not America. If there are more Christians than hard-core autist atheists then the statue will have to remain gone :)

You are incorrect. Canada does have a constitution and is therefore, a republic (like the U.S.). They have a constitution with civil rights which includes a freedom of religion clause.
http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca...
"If we believe absurdities we shall commit atrocities." -- Voltaire
Beastt
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9/13/2014 3:04:59 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/13/2014 2:41:24 PM, neutral wrote:
At 9/13/2014 2:12:43 PM, Otokage wrote:

Thing is, we are not debating if we should take christians into account while removing the statue, since we both think the same way in this issue. We are debating if the statue is detrimental per se: does it spread hate towards Jewish people like a statue of Hitler? May offend the sensibilitie of children? Does it incite towards violence? The answers may be possitive to some degree, but imo not enough degree to remove the statue, since Yahweh can also be considered a symbol of violence, despotism, genocide, slavery, religious supremacy, crimes of the Inquisition, etc.


Yeah. That is exactly what Satan represents.

Please, think of the thing that would most offend and piss you off, and imagine someone putting a statue of it in the middle of your front lawn. Congrats, now you understand Satan.

Thie Inquisition does not justify continued evil - quite the opposite.

If Christians can erect a statue of God (or Jesus), then anyone who pleases, has the equal right to exhibit an erect statue of Satan. It's not about what you personally find offensive. It's about equal rights. You supposedly fought for such rights, but demonstrate that you don't even grasp the concept. So what were you fighting and killing for?
"If we believe absurdities we shall commit atrocities." -- Voltaire
neutral
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9/13/2014 4:15:53 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/13/2014 3:04:59 PM, Beastt wrote:
At 9/13/2014 2:41:24 PM, neutral wrote:
At 9/13/2014 2:12:43 PM, Otokage wrote:

Thing is, we are not debating if we should take christians into account while removing the statue, since we both think the same way in this issue. We are debating if the statue is detrimental per se: does it spread hate towards Jewish people like a statue of Hitler? May offend the sensibilitie of children? Does it incite towards violence? The answers may be possitive to some degree, but imo not enough degree to remove the statue, since Yahweh can also be considered a symbol of violence, despotism, genocide, slavery, religious supremacy, crimes of the Inquisition, etc.


Yeah. That is exactly what Satan represents.

Please, think of the thing that would most offend and piss you off, and imagine someone putting a statue of it in the middle of your front lawn. Congrats, now you understand Satan.

Thie Inquisition does not justify continued evil - quite the opposite.

If Christians can erect a statue of God (or Jesus), then anyone who pleases, has the equal right to exhibit an erect statue of Satan. It's not about what you personally find offensive. It's about equal rights. You supposedly fought for such rights, but demonstrate that you don't even grasp the concept. So what were you fighting and killing for?

Please fell free to address the points or the standard I raised rather than just taking the opposite view.

I realize, as a Satanist, its difficult for you to see why anyone would disagree with you, but when your goal is to undermine EVERYONE else rather thanseek equality ... its kind of a germane point both present and legally.
Beastt
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9/13/2014 4:20:59 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/13/2014 4:15:53 PM, neutral wrote:
At 9/13/2014 3:04:59 PM, Beastt wrote:
At 9/13/2014 2:41:24 PM, neutral wrote:
At 9/13/2014 2:12:43 PM, Otokage wrote:

Thing is, we are not debating if we should take christians into account while removing the statue, since we both think the same way in this issue. We are debating if the statue is detrimental per se: does it spread hate towards Jewish people like a statue of Hitler? May offend the sensibilitie of children? Does it incite towards violence? The answers may be possitive to some degree, but imo not enough degree to remove the statue, since Yahweh can also be considered a symbol of violence, despotism, genocide, slavery, religious supremacy, crimes of the Inquisition, etc.


Yeah. That is exactly what Satan represents.

Please, think of the thing that would most offend and piss you off, and imagine someone putting a statue of it in the middle of your front lawn. Congrats, now you understand Satan.

Thie Inquisition does not justify continued evil - quite the opposite.

If Christians can erect a statue of God (or Jesus), then anyone who pleases, has the equal right to exhibit an erect statue of Satan. It's not about what you personally find offensive. It's about equal rights. You supposedly fought for such rights, but demonstrate that you don't even grasp the concept. So what were you fighting and killing for?

Please fell free to address the points or the standard I raised rather than just taking the opposite view.

I realize, as a Satanist,
I was unaware that you were identifying yourself as a Satanist recently.

its difficult for you to see why anyone would disagree with you, but when your goal is to undermine EVERYONE else rather thanseek equality ... its kind of a germane point both present and legally.
Asking for equal treatment is NOT an attempt to undermine anyone. This is very simple.
If you have the right to erect a statue of God (or Jesus, or Popeye)
... then anyone else has an equal right to erect a statue of any character they choose, including Satan.

If you can't understand equality, then you shouldn't have been killing people under the guise of fighting for it.
"If we believe absurdities we shall commit atrocities." -- Voltaire
neutral
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9/13/2014 4:23:43 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/13/2014 4:20:59 PM, Beastt wrote:
At 9/13/2014 4:15:53 PM, neutral wrote:
At 9/13/2014 3:04:59 PM, Beastt wrote:
At 9/13/2014 2:41:24 PM, neutral wrote:
At 9/13/2014 2:12:43 PM, Otokage wrote:

Thing is, we are not debating if we should take christians into account while removing the statue, since we both think the same way in this issue. We are debating if the statue is detrimental per se: does it spread hate towards Jewish people like a statue of Hitler? May offend the sensibilitie of children? Does it incite towards violence? The answers may be possitive to some degree, but imo not enough degree to remove the statue, since Yahweh can also be considered a symbol of violence, despotism, genocide, slavery, religious supremacy, crimes of the Inquisition, etc.


Yeah. That is exactly what Satan represents.

Please, think of the thing that would most offend and piss you off, and imagine someone putting a statue of it in the middle of your front lawn. Congrats, now you understand Satan.

Thie Inquisition does not justify continued evil - quite the opposite.

If Christians can erect a statue of God (or Jesus), then anyone who pleases, has the equal right to exhibit an erect statue of Satan. It's not about what you personally find offensive. It's about equal rights. You supposedly fought for such rights, but demonstrate that you don't even grasp the concept. So what were you fighting and killing for?

Please fell free to address the points or the standard I raised rather than just taking the opposite view.

I realize, as a Satanist,
I was unaware that you were identifying yourself as a Satanist recently.

its difficult for you to see why anyone would disagree with you, but when your goal is to undermine EVERYONE else rather thanseek equality ... its kind of a germane point both present and legally.
Asking for equal treatment is NOT an attempt to undermine anyone. This is very simple.
If you have the right to erect a statue of God (or Jesus, or Popeye)
... then anyone else has an equal right to erect a statue of any character they choose, including Satan.

If you can't understand equality, then you shouldn't have been killing people under the guise of fighting for it.

OK, so you ar ignorant of bot Christianity AND Satanism , therefore we must accept ignorance rather than evidenced bases assessments.

If you'd like to actually address and rebut my claims that is ... kind of the point. Pandering to ignorance is ... beneath an educated person ... wait ...
Otokage
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9/13/2014 4:37:28 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/13/2014 2:41:24 PM, neutral wrote:
At 9/13/2014 2:12:43 PM, Otokage wrote:

Thing is, we are not debating if we should take christians into account while removing the statue, since we both think the same way in this issue. We are debating if the statue is detrimental per se: does it spread hate towards Jewish people like a statue of Hitler? May offend the sensibilitie of children? Does it incite towards violence? The answers may be possitive to some degree, but imo not enough degree to remove the statue, since Yahweh can also be considered a symbol of violence, despotism, genocide, slavery, religious supremacy, crimes of the Inquisition, etc.


Yeah. That is exactly what Satan represents.

No more than Yahweh. So why the double standard?

Please, think of the thing that would most offend and piss you off, and imagine someone putting a statue of it in the middle of your front lawn. Congrats, now you understand Satan.

But as I said, I do not need to debate that. I know that a statue that pisses people off, should be removed. We both agree on that. But I was trying to debate with you wether the statue is detrimental per se, because I thought that was your point. Is it your point or not? And if it is, then why?

Thie Inquisition does not justify continued evil - quite the opposite.

But some people may label the christian god as evil because of the inquisition. The same way you are labeling satanists as evil because of the hollywood movies / sensational news you have seen about devil worshippers.
Beastt
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9/13/2014 4:39:22 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/13/2014 4:23:43 PM, neutral wrote:
At 9/13/2014 4:20:59 PM, Beastt wrote:
At 9/13/2014 4:15:53 PM, neutral wrote:
At 9/13/2014 3:04:59 PM, Beastt wrote:
At 9/13/2014 2:41:24 PM, neutral wrote:
At 9/13/2014 2:12:43 PM, Otokage wrote:

Thing is, we are not debating if we should take christians into account while removing the statue, since we both think the same way in this issue. We are debating if the statue is detrimental per se: does it spread hate towards Jewish people like a statue of Hitler? May offend the sensibilitie of children? Does it incite towards violence? The answers may be possitive to some degree, but imo not enough degree to remove the statue, since Yahweh can also be considered a symbol of violence, despotism, genocide, slavery, religious supremacy, crimes of the Inquisition, etc.


Yeah. That is exactly what Satan represents.

Please, think of the thing that would most offend and piss you off, and imagine someone putting a statue of it in the middle of your front lawn. Congrats, now you understand Satan.

Thie Inquisition does not justify continued evil - quite the opposite.

If Christians can erect a statue of God (or Jesus), then anyone who pleases, has the equal right to exhibit an erect statue of Satan. It's not about what you personally find offensive. It's about equal rights. You supposedly fought for such rights, but demonstrate that you don't even grasp the concept. So what were you fighting and killing for?

Please fell free to address the points or the standard I raised rather than just taking the opposite view.

I realize, as a Satanist,
I was unaware that you were identifying yourself as a Satanist recently.

its difficult for you to see why anyone would disagree with you, but when your goal is to undermine EVERYONE else rather thanseek equality ... its kind of a germane point both present and legally.
Asking for equal treatment is NOT an attempt to undermine anyone. This is very simple.
If you have the right to erect a statue of God (or Jesus, or Popeye)
... then anyone else has an equal right to erect a statue of any character they choose, including Satan.

If you can't understand equality, then you shouldn't have been killing people under the guise of fighting for it.

OK, so you ar ignorant of bot Christianity AND Satanism , therefore we must accept ignorance rather than evidenced bases assessments.

If you'd like to actually address and rebut my claims that is ... kind of the point. Pandering to ignorance is ... beneath an educated person ... wait ...

I've addressed the topic of the thread, while you have gone off on a tangent (perhaps not even that). Either address that erecting the statue of Satan is equality in the face of statutes erected of/to God, or shut the hell up.
"If we believe absurdities we shall commit atrocities." -- Voltaire
neutral
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9/13/2014 4:42:02 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/13/2014 4:37:28 PM, Otokage wrote:

No more than Yahweh. So why the double standard?


Because no one save Satanists claims the Yahweh is evil.

Do you think mercy and forgiveness are evil? Than i doubt seriously that you actually have and solid reason to reject Yahweh, at the very least, as the embodiment of someone else's opinions of these things.

Are you capable of understanding OTHER people's theology? Both Christian, Jeewish, Muslims, etc. ... AND satanist. To pretend it does not matter to communities made of these people is .. ludicrous - no court would accept you personal opinion of other people's theology. Silliness.

Again, your contention is that ONLY your view counts in a COMMUNITY. You fundamentally miss the point.

If that is how you think, North Korea beckons.
neutral
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9/13/2014 4:43:09 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/13/2014 4:39:22 PM, Beastt wrote:

OK, so you ar ignorant of bot Christianity AND Satanism , therefore we must accept ignorance rather than evidenced bases assessments.

If you'd like to actually address and rebut my claims that is ... kind of the point. Pandering to ignorance is ... beneath an educated person ... wait ...

I've addressed the topic of the thread, while you have gone off on a tangent (perhaps not even that). Either address that erecting the statue of Satan is equality in the face of statutes erected of/to God, or shut the hell up.

No, you pretty clearly have not.

Please allow other people to comment on YOUR opinion offered in public rather than decide for them ... kind of the point of a public debate forum.
Beastt
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9/13/2014 4:53:59 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/13/2014 4:43:09 PM, neutral wrote:
At 9/13/2014 4:39:22 PM, Beastt wrote:

OK, so you ar ignorant of bot Christianity AND Satanism , therefore we must accept ignorance rather than evidenced bases assessments.

If you'd like to actually address and rebut my claims that is ... kind of the point. Pandering to ignorance is ... beneath an educated person ... wait ...

I've addressed the topic of the thread, while you have gone off on a tangent (perhaps not even that). Either address that erecting the statue of Satan is equality in the face of statutes erected of/to God, or shut the hell up.

No, you pretty clearly have not.

Please allow other people to comment on YOUR opinion offered in public rather than decide for them ... kind of the point of a public debate forum.

No, Neutral; in stating that people have an equal right to erect a statue of Satan, I HAVE addressed the topic. YOU are the one who seems incapable of addressing it, or of understanding the meaning of the word "equality".

Must I point out that I have no capacity to prevent anyone else from posting? And you're telling me that people trusted you with a gun? You don't seem to have the mental capacity to be trusted with a stapler.
"If we believe absurdities we shall commit atrocities." -- Voltaire
neutral
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9/13/2014 4:56:28 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/13/2014 4:53:59 PM, Beastt wrote:
At 9/13/2014 4:43:09 PM, neutral wrote:
At 9/13/2014 4:39:22 PM, Beastt wrote:

OK, so you ar ignorant of bot Christianity AND Satanism , therefore we must accept ignorance rather than evidenced bases assessments.

If you'd like to actually address and rebut my claims that is ... kind of the point. Pandering to ignorance is ... beneath an educated person ... wait ...

I've addressed the topic of the thread, while you have gone off on a tangent (perhaps not even that). Either address that erecting the statue of Satan is equality in the face of statutes erected of/to God, or shut the hell up.

No, you pretty clearly have not.

Please allow other people to comment on YOUR opinion offered in public rather than decide for them ... kind of the point of a public debate forum.

No, Neutral; in stating that people have an equal right to erect a statue of Satan,

Unless of course they violate the standards as spelled out by SCOTUS.

Fee free to actually speak to the points I spelled out.

Sorry Satanists, but when your goal is evil AND being uncivil rejectionsist (i.e. trolls) you don; get to trump simple standards of decency.

That is why the FCC can still police television from ... well Satanists among others. SCOTUS, its kind of a court that matters.