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Salvation? Or Extortion?

Beastt
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9/13/2014 9:59:42 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
By definition, if one is threatened with a peril, and the same one threatening the peril offers to withdraw that peril in exchange for anything thought to be of value, that is extortion.

So if a mugger, uses a gun as a threat, but offers not to use the gun in exchange for your money, that is extortion.

By the same token, if God, uses Hell as a threat, but offers to withdraw the threat in exchange for your love and belief, that is extortion.

God/Jesus is not your savior. He's your extortionist.
"If we believe absurdities we shall commit atrocities." -- Voltaire
sovereigngracereigns
Posts: 585
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9/13/2014 10:51:35 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/13/2014 9:59:42 PM, Beastt wrote:
By definition, if one is threatened with a peril, and the same one threatening the peril offers to withdraw that peril in exchange for anything thought to be of value, that is extortion.

So if a mugger, uses a gun as a threat, but offers not to use the gun in exchange for your money, that is extortion.

By the same token, if God, uses Hell as a threat, but offers to withdraw the threat in exchange for your love and belief, that is extortion.

God/Jesus is not your savior. He's your extortionist.

Except you've got the whole thing wrong.

Please listen:

God is the law-giver and the judge. And every single one of us has broken his law.
And he has the right to execute justice on each and every one of us.

But, in his sovereign purpose of grace, he elected to save a people for himself.
And he sent his own Son to this world to pay for their sins.

Now, all those for whom Christ died will not be condemned, but have been given eternal life.
And God's Holy Spirit will call out each one of them by name, in time.

And each one of them will believe that Christ is their Lord and Savior and Heavenly Advocate, who reigns from his heavenly throne, interceding for them.

They will worship and praise his name, and be motivated by love and gratitude, not by the threat of Hell, because Christ has already paid their debt!

You see, the BELIEVER has NO REASON to fear Hell.
There is NO CONDEMNATION for HIM!

It is the one who does NOT believe who ought to fear Hell.


The Word of God says:
"He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him." (John 3:36)

And Christ said:
16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
18 "He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. 21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God."
(John 3:16-21)

Now, one of two things is true.

Either:
1. You are one of the elect, and you will eventually be delivered.
or
2. You're not one of the elect, and you will most certainly go to Hell.

It's one of those two.

And though God is in sovereign control of that, it is YOUR RESPONSIBILITY to SEEK HIS MERCY WHILE THERE IS TIME, or SUFFER the CONSEQUENCES.

The Word of God says:
"Come now, and let us reason together,"
Says the Lord,
"Though your sins are like scarlet,
They shall be as white as snow;
Though they are red like crimson,
They shall be as wool.
19
If you are willing and obedient,
You shall eat the good of the land;
20
But if you refuse and rebel,
You shall be devoured by the sword";
For the mouth of the Lord has spoken.
(Isaiah 1:18-20)

Don't be a FOOL.
Come to CHRIST!

Just drop all this nonsense, and seek the Lord's mercy.
If you go out of that door marked "death" without Christ, you're going to Hell.

Please listen to these words of Christ.
He said:
14 I am the good shepherd; and I know My sheep, and am known by My own. 15 As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep. 16 And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd. (John 10:14-16)

I hope to see you in Heaven, Beastt.
I hope you are one of God's sheep, my friend.

I hope you will hear the voice of Christ in the Scriptures I quoted.

It would be so wonderful, Beastt, to see you praising the name of the Lord Jesus Christ.

I'm praying for you, friend.
I hope that you will be my brother in Christ.

Sincerely,
SGR
Beastt
Posts: 5,135
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9/14/2014 12:15:29 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/13/2014 10:51:35 PM, sovereigngracereigns wrote:
At 9/13/2014 9:59:42 PM, Beastt wrote:
By definition, if one is threatened with a peril, and the same one threatening the peril offers to withdraw that peril in exchange for anything thought to be of value, that is extortion.

So if a mugger, uses a gun as a threat, but offers not to use the gun in exchange for your money, that is extortion.

By the same token, if God, uses Hell as a threat, but offers to withdraw the threat in exchange for your love and belief, that is extortion.

God/Jesus is not your savior. He's your extortionist.

Except you've got the whole thing wrong.

Please listen:

God is the law-giver and the judge. And every single one of us has broken his law.
And he has the right to execute justice on each and every one of us.

But, in his sovereign purpose of grace, he elected to save a people for himself.
And he sent his own Son to this world to pay for their sins.

Now, all those for whom Christ died will not be condemned, but have been given eternal life.
And God's Holy Spirit will call out each one of them by name, in time.

And each one of them will believe that Christ is their Lord and Savior and Heavenly Advocate, who reigns from his heavenly throne, interceding for them.

They will worship and praise his name, and be motivated by love and gratitude, not by the threat of Hell, because Christ has already paid their debt!

You see, the BELIEVER has NO REASON to fear Hell.
There is NO CONDEMNATION for HIM!

It is the one who does NOT believe who ought to fear Hell.


The Word of God says:
"He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him." (John 3:36)

And Christ said:
16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
18 "He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. 21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God."
(John 3:16-21)

Now, one of two things is true.

Either:
1. You are one of the elect, and you will eventually be delivered.
or
2. You're not one of the elect, and you will most certainly go to Hell.

It's one of those two.

And though God is in sovereign control of that, it is YOUR RESPONSIBILITY to SEEK HIS MERCY WHILE THERE IS TIME, or SUFFER the CONSEQUENCES.

The Word of God says:
"Come now, and let us reason together,"
Says the Lord,
"Though your sins are like scarlet,
They shall be as white as snow;
Though they are red like crimson,
They shall be as wool.
19
If you are willing and obedient,
You shall eat the good of the land;
20
But if you refuse and rebel,
You shall be devoured by the sword";
For the mouth of the Lord has spoken.
(Isaiah 1:18-20)

Don't be a FOOL.
Come to CHRIST!

Just drop all this nonsense, and seek the Lord's mercy.
If you go out of that door marked "death" without Christ, you're going to Hell.

Please listen to these words of Christ.
He said:
14 I am the good shepherd; and I know My sheep, and am known by My own. 15 As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep. 16 And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd. (John 10:14-16)

I hope to see you in Heaven, Beastt.
I hope you are one of God's sheep, my friend.

I hope you will hear the voice of Christ in the Scriptures I quoted.

It would be so wonderful, Beastt, to see you praising the name of the Lord Jesus Christ.

I'm praying for you, friend.
I hope that you will be my brother in Christ.

Sincerely,
SGR

Bottom Line: You're threatened with Hell. But if you give your Belief. Then the threat is withdrawn.
Just like: You're threatened with a gun. But if you give your wallet. The threat is withdrawn.

God... Hell... Belief
Mugger... Gun... Wallet

Extortion, either way.
"If we believe absurdities we shall commit atrocities." -- Voltaire
sovereigngracereigns
Posts: 585
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9/14/2014 12:33:24 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/14/2014 12:15:29 AM, Beastt wrote:
At 9/13/2014 10:51:35 PM, sovereigngracereigns wrote:
At 9/13/2014 9:59:42 PM, Beastt wrote:
By definition, if one is threatened with a peril, and the same one threatening the peril offers to withdraw that peril in exchange for anything thought to be of value, that is extortion.

So if a mugger, uses a gun as a threat, but offers not to use the gun in exchange for your money, that is extortion.

By the same token, if God, uses Hell as a threat, but offers to withdraw the threat in exchange for your love and belief, that is extortion.

God/Jesus is not your savior. He's your extortionist.

Except you've got the whole thing wrong.

Please listen:

God is the law-giver and the judge. And every single one of us has broken his law.
And he has the right to execute justice on each and every one of us.

But, in his sovereign purpose of grace, he elected to save a people for himself.
And he sent his own Son to this world to pay for their sins.

Now, all those for whom Christ died will not be condemned, but have been given eternal life.
And God's Holy Spirit will call out each one of them by name, in time.

And each one of them will believe that Christ is their Lord and Savior and Heavenly Advocate, who reigns from his heavenly throne, interceding for them.

They will worship and praise his name, and be motivated by love and gratitude, not by the threat of Hell, because Christ has already paid their debt!

You see, the BELIEVER has NO REASON to fear Hell.
There is NO CONDEMNATION for HIM!

It is the one who does NOT believe who ought to fear Hell.


The Word of God says:
"He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him." (John 3:36)

And Christ said:
16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
18 "He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. 21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God."
(John 3:16-21)

Now, one of two things is true.

Either:
1. You are one of the elect, and you will eventually be delivered.
or
2. You're not one of the elect, and you will most certainly go to Hell.

It's one of those two.

And though God is in sovereign control of that, it is YOUR RESPONSIBILITY to SEEK HIS MERCY WHILE THERE IS TIME, or SUFFER the CONSEQUENCES.

The Word of God says:
"Come now, and let us reason together,"
Says the Lord,
"Though your sins are like scarlet,
They shall be as white as snow;
Though they are red like crimson,
They shall be as wool.
19
If you are willing and obedient,
You shall eat the good of the land;
20
But if you refuse and rebel,
You shall be devoured by the sword";
For the mouth of the Lord has spoken.
(Isaiah 1:18-20)

Don't be a FOOL.
Come to CHRIST!

Just drop all this nonsense, and seek the Lord's mercy.
If you go out of that door marked "death" without Christ, you're going to Hell.

Please listen to these words of Christ.
He said:
14 I am the good shepherd; and I know My sheep, and am known by My own. 15 As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep. 16 And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd. (John 10:14-16)

I hope to see you in Heaven, Beastt.
I hope you are one of God's sheep, my friend.

I hope you will hear the voice of Christ in the Scriptures I quoted.

It would be so wonderful, Beastt, to see you praising the name of the Lord Jesus Christ.

I'm praying for you, friend.
I hope that you will be my brother in Christ.

Sincerely,
SGR

Bottom Line: You're threatened with Hell. But if you give your Belief. Then the threat is withdrawn.
Just like: You're threatened with a gun. But if you give your wallet. The threat is withdrawn.

God... Hell... Belief
Mugger... Gun... Wallet

Extortion, either way.

OK, but just know that I'm not against you.
I'm for you, Beastt.
I really am.

And if Christ died for you, then you WILL EVENTUALLY come to him.
Beastt
Posts: 5,135
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9/14/2014 12:47:02 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/14/2014 12:33:24 AM, sovereigngracereigns wrote:
At 9/14/2014 12:15:29 AM, Beastt wrote:
At 9/13/2014 10:51:35 PM, sovereigngracereigns wrote:
At 9/13/2014 9:59:42 PM, Beastt wrote:

Bottom Line: You're threatened with Hell. But if you give your Belief. Then the threat is withdrawn.
Just like: You're threatened with a gun. But if you give your wallet. The threat is withdrawn.

God... Hell... Belief
Mugger... Gun... Wallet

Extortion, either way.

OK, but just know that I'm not against you.
I'm for you, Beastt.
I really am.

And if Christ died for you, then you WILL EVENTUALLY come to him.

Okay, I appreciate that. But understand that re-stating Christian doctrine doesn't change anything. The point here is that "salvation" is when you remove someone from a threat you didn't create.

If you create the threat and then offer to remove the threat under a condition, that's extortion.

So the Christian God is an extortionate God - attempting to use a threat to extract what he wants - belief.

So there is no Christian "salvation"

And as for the claim that Jesus "died for me", that's a meaningless thing to say. Is Jesus dead? Is God dead? If they're not, then neither one of them (him), "died" for me.

Is Jesus in Hell for eternity? Is God? That's what Christian doctrine states would be my fate. And Jesus is supposed to have taken the punishment for me. But Jesus isn't enduring eternal torment in Hell. So that part is a lie as well.

If it were true that God created laws and expected people to adhere to those laws, then all God would need to do is forgive us. That's it! Just forgive. That's no less "just" than to have an innocent suffer in our place. That's just a greater injustice. That's not even to mention the fact that if God is omniscient, then he would know his laws would not be followed, even before he created those laws. So God would already know that he needed to have a better system, or more lenient laws... or a different "design" for humans.

The entire scenario is set up so that God can use a threat to obtain what he wants, yet still be cast as the "good guy". It doesn't work that way.

If you present the peril you offer to save someone from. And your offer is conditional. Then you're practicing extortion, not "salvation".
"If we believe absurdities we shall commit atrocities." -- Voltaire
Double_R
Posts: 4,886
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9/14/2014 12:56:35 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
It never ceases to amaze me how far theists will go to justify such a simple concept. They believe God is the creator of everything yet they blame him for nothing.
sovereigngracereigns
Posts: 585
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9/14/2014 1:05:55 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/14/2014 12:47:02 AM, Beastt wrote:
At 9/14/2014 12:33:24 AM, sovereigngracereigns wrote:
At 9/14/2014 12:15:29 AM, Beastt wrote:
At 9/13/2014 10:51:35 PM, sovereigngracereigns wrote:
At 9/13/2014 9:59:42 PM, Beastt wrote:

Bottom Line: You're threatened with Hell. But if you give your Belief. Then the threat is withdrawn.
Just like: You're threatened with a gun. But if you give your wallet. The threat is withdrawn.

God... Hell... Belief
Mugger... Gun... Wallet

Extortion, either way.

OK, but just know that I'm not against you.
I'm for you, Beastt.
I really am.

And if Christ died for you, then you WILL EVENTUALLY come to him.

Okay, I appreciate that. But understand that re-stating Christian doctrine doesn't change anything. The point here is that "salvation" is when you remove someone from a threat you didn't create.

If you create the threat and then offer to remove the threat under a condition, that's extortion.

So the Christian God is an extortionate God - attempting to use a threat to extract what he wants - belief.

So there is no Christian "salvation"

And as for the claim that Jesus "died for me", that's a meaningless thing to say. Is Jesus dead? Is God dead? If they're not, then neither one of them (him), "died" for me.

Is Jesus in Hell for eternity? Is God? That's what Christian doctrine states would be my fate. And Jesus is supposed to have taken the punishment for me. But Jesus isn't enduring eternal torment in Hell. So that part is a lie as well.

If it were true that God created laws and expected people to adhere to those laws, then all God would need to do is forgive us. That's it! Just forgive. That's no less "just" than to have an innocent suffer in our place. That's just a greater injustice. That's not even to mention the fact that if God is omniscient, then he would know his laws would not be followed, even before he created those laws. So God would already know that he needed to have a better system, or more lenient laws... or a different "design" for humans.

The entire scenario is set up so that God can use a threat to obtain what he wants, yet still be cast as the "good guy". It doesn't work that way.

If you present the peril you offer to save someone from. And your offer is conditional. Then you're practicing extortion, not "salvation".

No, you've got it all wrong.

I'm telling you, Beastt, you're not even close.

I wish you weren't so determined to find fault with it so I could explain it.

I could easily explain it to you in a way that WOULD make sense, IF you were genuinely interested in understanding it, but it's clear you're not.

Listen, Beastt, if, at some point, you genuinely want to understand, then please let me know.

Until that happens, I see no point in trying to convince you.
Beastt
Posts: 5,135
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9/14/2014 1:10:11 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/14/2014 1:05:55 AM, sovereigngracereigns wrote:
At 9/14/2014 12:47:02 AM, Beastt wrote:
At 9/14/2014 12:33:24 AM, sovereigngracereigns wrote:
At 9/14/2014 12:15:29 AM, Beastt wrote:
At 9/13/2014 10:51:35 PM, sovereigngracereigns wrote:
At 9/13/2014 9:59:42 PM, Beastt wrote:

Bottom Line: You're threatened with Hell. But if you give your Belief. Then the threat is withdrawn.
Just like: You're threatened with a gun. But if you give your wallet. The threat is withdrawn.

God... Hell... Belief
Mugger... Gun... Wallet

Extortion, either way.

OK, but just know that I'm not against you.
I'm for you, Beastt.
I really am.

And if Christ died for you, then you WILL EVENTUALLY come to him.

Okay, I appreciate that. But understand that re-stating Christian doctrine doesn't change anything. The point here is that "salvation" is when you remove someone from a threat you didn't create.

If you create the threat and then offer to remove the threat under a condition, that's extortion.

So the Christian God is an extortionate God - attempting to use a threat to extract what he wants - belief.

So there is no Christian "salvation"

And as for the claim that Jesus "died for me", that's a meaningless thing to say. Is Jesus dead? Is God dead? If they're not, then neither one of them (him), "died" for me.

Is Jesus in Hell for eternity? Is God? That's what Christian doctrine states would be my fate. And Jesus is supposed to have taken the punishment for me. But Jesus isn't enduring eternal torment in Hell. So that part is a lie as well.

If it were true that God created laws and expected people to adhere to those laws, then all God would need to do is forgive us. That's it! Just forgive. That's no less "just" than to have an innocent suffer in our place. That's just a greater injustice. That's not even to mention the fact that if God is omniscient, then he would know his laws would not be followed, even before he created those laws. So God would already know that he needed to have a better system, or more lenient laws... or a different "design" for humans.

The entire scenario is set up so that God can use a threat to obtain what he wants, yet still be cast as the "good guy". It doesn't work that way.

If you present the peril you offer to save someone from. And your offer is conditional. Then you're practicing extortion, not "salvation".

No, you've got it all wrong.

I'm telling you, Beastt, you're not even close.

I wish you weren't so determined to find fault with it so I could explain it.

I could easily explain it to you in a way that WOULD make sense, IF you were genuinely interested in understanding it, but it's clear you're not.

Listen, Beastt, if, at some point, you genuinely want to understand, then please let me know.

Until that happens, I see no point in trying to convince you.

No, you're the one not interested in the truth.

Did God create Hell?
Did God make the rule that disbelief means eternity in torment?

Guess what? Those two things together make the whole thing an extortionate plot. You can't "save" someone from a peril that YOU created. If you created the peril, and require any conditions before you'll withdraw that peril... it's EXTORTION!

If God wanted to save people, he'd just save them... simple forgiveness. That's all it would take.
Stop referring back to your doctrine for one minute and just think it through!
"If we believe absurdities we shall commit atrocities." -- Voltaire
Beastt
Posts: 5,135
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9/14/2014 1:11:35 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/14/2014 12:56:35 AM, Double_R wrote:
It never ceases to amaze me how far theists will go to justify such a simple concept. They believe God is the creator of everything yet they blame him for nothing.

Even when it is claimed that God uses Hell like a mugger uses a gun... to get what he wants.
"If we believe absurdities we shall commit atrocities." -- Voltaire
sovereigngracereigns
Posts: 585
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9/14/2014 2:02:25 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/14/2014 1:10:11 AM, Beastt wrote:
At 9/14/2014 1:05:55 AM, sovereigngracereigns wrote:
At 9/14/2014 12:47:02 AM, Beastt wrote:
At 9/14/2014 12:33:24 AM, sovereigngracereigns wrote:
At 9/14/2014 12:15:29 AM, Beastt wrote:
At 9/13/2014 10:51:35 PM, sovereigngracereigns wrote:
At 9/13/2014 9:59:42 PM, Beastt wrote:

Bottom Line: You're threatened with Hell. But if you give your Belief. Then the threat is withdrawn.
Just like: You're threatened with a gun. But if you give your wallet. The threat is withdrawn.

God... Hell... Belief
Mugger... Gun... Wallet

Extortion, either way.

OK, but just know that I'm not against you.
I'm for you, Beastt.
I really am.

And if Christ died for you, then you WILL EVENTUALLY come to him.

Okay, I appreciate that. But understand that re-stating Christian doctrine doesn't change anything. The point here is that "salvation" is when you remove someone from a threat you didn't create.

If you create the threat and then offer to remove the threat under a condition, that's extortion.

So the Christian God is an extortionate God - attempting to use a threat to extract what he wants - belief.

So there is no Christian "salvation"

And as for the claim that Jesus "died for me", that's a meaningless thing to say. Is Jesus dead? Is God dead? If they're not, then neither one of them (him), "died" for me.

Is Jesus in Hell for eternity? Is God? That's what Christian doctrine states would be my fate. And Jesus is supposed to have taken the punishment for me. But Jesus isn't enduring eternal torment in Hell. So that part is a lie as well.

If it were true that God created laws and expected people to adhere to those laws, then all God would need to do is forgive us. That's it! Just forgive. That's no less "just" than to have an innocent suffer in our place. That's just a greater injustice. That's not even to mention the fact that if God is omniscient, then he would know his laws would not be followed, even before he created those laws. So God would already know that he needed to have a better system, or more lenient laws... or a different "design" for humans.

The entire scenario is set up so that God can use a threat to obtain what he wants, yet still be cast as the "good guy". It doesn't work that way.

If you present the peril you offer to save someone from. And your offer is conditional. Then you're practicing extortion, not "salvation".

No, you've got it all wrong.

I'm telling you, Beastt, you're not even close.

I wish you weren't so determined to find fault with it so I could explain it.

I could easily explain it to you in a way that WOULD make sense, IF you were genuinely interested in understanding it, but it's clear you're not.

Listen, Beastt, if, at some point, you genuinely want to understand, then please let me know.

Until that happens, I see no point in trying to convince you.

No, you're the one not interested in the truth.

Did God create Hell?
Did God make the rule that disbelief means eternity in torment?

Guess what? Those two things together make the whole thing an extortionate plot. You can't "save" someone from a peril that YOU created. If you created the peril, and require any conditions before you'll withdraw that peril... it's EXTORTION!

If God wanted to save people, he'd just save them... simple forgiveness. That's all it would take.
Stop referring back to your doctrine for one minute and just think it through!

Oh, come on, Beastt.

Salvation is NOT at ALL like a MUGGING, it's an act of MERCY!

The sinner is guilty. He's sinned against God.

And God has the right to condemn the sinner.

But God, in his MERCY, decides he wants to PARDON the sinner.

And God, in his JUSTICE, says, "I will NOT pardon a sinner by THROWING OUT MY HOLY LAW.
I will be MERCIFUL, but ONLY according to JUSTICE."

So, his Son, Jesus Christ, who LOVES his FATHER, says, "Father, SEND ME to be a SACRIFICE for SIN. I want to glorify you by dying to save that poor, condemned sinner."

And God the Father says, "Son, I will glorify you for dying in the place of that poor, condemned sinner, because there is no greater love than that a man lay down his life for his friends."

And so Jesus Christ came to die on the cross, to make an atonement for that poor, condemned sinner.

And guess what...

That poor, condemned sinner was ME, and I'm FREE from any threat of Hell!
I'm not motivated to serve God out of fear of Hell, I'm motivated by deep GRATITUDE!

I will NEVER be condemned because CHRIST DIED for ME.
And IT MAY BE that Christ died for YOU.

And so, I'm telling you, from one sinner to another, there's MERCY in CHRIST.

I have EXPERIENCED the PEACE and JOY that comes with the forgiveness of sins.
And I want YOU to experience it too!
So PLEASE, just listen to me.

I'm just like a beggar who knows where to find bread, telling another beggar where he can find it.

I'm not your enemy.
I'm trying to HELP you.
Now, PLEASE TAKE the HELP!

Come on, Beastt.
Just listen to reason.
I'm telling you, there's FULL PARDON for SINS IN CHRIST!

Just come and GET it!
There's NOTHING STOPPING YOU from receiving FORGIVENESS and MERCY in CHRIST!

Christ says:
1"Ho! Everyone who thirsts,
Come to the waters;
And you who have no money,
Come, buy and eat.
Yes, come, buy wine and milk
Without money and without price.
2
Why do you spend money for what is not bread,
And your wages for what does not satisfy?
Listen carefully to Me, and eat what is good,
And let your soul delight itself in abundance.
3
Incline your ear, and come to Me.
Hear, and your soul shall live;
And I will make an everlasting covenant with you"
The sure mercies of David.
(Isaiah 55:1-3)

Do you know what the "sure mercies of David" is referring to?
It's the full pardon from sin that the Lord promised to King David, and IT CAN BE YOURS TOO!

Now, please LISTEN:

That's NOT CONDITIONAL on ANYTHING YOU DO, not even CONDITIONAL on YOUR BELIEVING!

The salvation of sinners was ALREADY ACCOMPLISHED when JESUS CHRIST DIED and ROSE AGAIN.

God does not save anyone BECAUSE they BELIEVE.
They BELIEVE because GOD GIVES THEM FAITH!

And Christ did NOT DIE for EVERYONE.
He DIED for the people who were GIVEN to him before he made the world.

He said:
"All that the Father gives me WILL come to me, and the one who comes to me I will by no means cast out." (John 6:37)

So, if you WANT salvation, it's YOURS!
Just COME and GET IT, it's WAITING for YOU!

Salvation IS CHRIST.
And CHRIST IS SALVATION.
BELIEVE ON CHRIST, and you WILL be SAVED.

I pray that God might be pleased to give you faith and deliver you from darkness, my friend.
Please listen to the words of CHRIST, the FRIEND of SINNERS, and see if you don't find him to be gracious.

Christ said:
"Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. 29 Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. " (Matthew 11:28)

Beastt, all that bitterness and frustration has just got to go.
I KNOW you must be TIRED of CARRYING IT.

I pray that God might bless those words of Christ to your heart.

Sincerely,
SGR
Beastt
Posts: 5,135
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9/14/2014 2:23:24 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/14/2014 2:02:25 AM, sovereigngracereigns wrote:
At 9/14/2014 1:10:11 AM, Beastt wrote:

No, you're the one not interested in the truth.

Did God create Hell?
Did God make the rule that disbelief means eternity in torment?

Guess what? Those two things together make the whole thing an extortionate plot. You can't "save" someone from a peril that YOU created. If you created the peril, and require any conditions before you'll withdraw that peril... it's EXTORTION!

If God wanted to save people, he'd just save them... simple forgiveness. That's all it would take.
Stop referring back to your doctrine for one minute and just think it through!

Oh, come on, Beastt.

Salvation is NOT at ALL like a MUGGING, it's an act of MERCY!
So... God isn't just?

The sinner is guilty. He's sinned against God.
Which God knew they would do even before he "designed" them, and even before he created his list of "sins".

And God has the right to condemn the sinner.
Not if he also designed and created that sinner.

But God, in his MERCY, decides he wants to PARDON the sinner.
But that's not what he does.

And God, in his JUSTICE, says, "I will NOT pardon a sinner by THROWING OUT MY HOLY LAW.
I will be MERCIFUL, but ONLY according to JUSTICE."
How is it just to punish the innocent and let the guilty go free? Would you approve of a judicial system that functions that way?

So, his Son, Jesus Christ, who LOVES his FATHER, says, "Father, SEND ME to be a SACRIFICE for SIN. I want to glorify you by dying to save that poor, condemned sinner."
So Jesus - being God - wants to glorify himself, by dying needlessly (yet not dying), for sins he didn't commit, which do nothing to rectify the wrongs done.

And God the Father says, "Son, I will glorify you for dying in the place of that poor, condemned sinner, because there is no greater love than that a man lay down his life for his friends."
And how does dying needlessly (while not dying), "glorify" anyone, or anything? Dying is about not being alive anymore. There's no "glory" connected to that.

And so Jesus Christ came to die on the cross, to make an atonement for that poor, condemned sinner.
And yet, there is no "atonement". Atonement means to fix, repair, rectify, or correct the wrongs done. Hanging on a cross until you suffocate doesn't fix anything.

And guess what...

That poor, condemned sinner was ME, and I'm FREE from any threat of Hell!
I'm not motivated to serve God out of fear of Hell, I'm motivated by deep GRATITUDE!
And would you be free from that threat if you didn't believe in God or Jesus? Are you going to tell me that one doesn't have to believe in God, Jesus or the "sacrifice" in order to be free of the threat of Hell?

I will NEVER be condemned because CHRIST DIED for ME.
And IT MAY BE that Christ died for YOU.
What do you mean "may be"? Is it conditional?

And so, I'm telling you, from one sinner to another, there's MERCY in CHRIST.
Which means there's no justice in Christ. (Justice and mercy are mutually exclusive.)

I have EXPERIENCED the PEACE and JOY that comes with the forgiveness of sins.
And I want YOU to experience it too!
So PLEASE, just listen to me.

I'm just like a beggar who knows where to find bread, telling another beggar where he can find it.

I'm not your enemy.
I'm trying to HELP you.
Now, PLEASE TAKE the HELP!

Come on, Beastt.
Just listen to reason.
I'm telling you, there's FULL PARDON for SINS IN CHRIST!

Just come and GET it!
There's NOTHING STOPPING YOU from receiving FORGIVENESS and MERCY in CHRIST!
Are you saying that I have to believe, or I don't receive the pardon from God's threat of Hell?
Isn't that like if I don't turn over my wallet, I don't receive a pardon from the mugger's gun?

Christ says:
The Bible doesn't contain any words of Jesus.

Now, please LISTEN:

That's NOT CONDITIONAL on ANYTHING YOU DO, not even CONDITIONAL on YOUR BELIEVING!

The salvation of sinners was ALREADY ACCOMPLISHED when JESUS CHRIST DIED and ROSE AGAIN.

God does not save anyone BECAUSE they BELIEVE.
They BELIEVE because GOD GIVES THEM FAITH!
Faith to believe?

And Christ did NOT DIE for EVERYONE.
He DIED for the people who were GIVEN to him before he made the world.

He said:
"All that the Father gives me WILL come to me, and the one who comes to me I will by no means cast out." (John 6:37)
You don't know anything that Jesus said, or even if Jesus said anything. We have fictional stories written by people who never knew him, decades after he was supposed to have died.

So, if you WANT salvation, it's YOURS!
Just COME and GET IT, it's WAITING for YOU!
And I don't have to do anything to get it?

Salvation IS CHRIST.
And CHRIST IS SALVATION.
BELIEVE ON CHRIST, and you WILL be SAVED.

WAIT A SECOND!!! WHY DID YOU LIE???
You said, "That's NOT CONDITIONAL on ANYTHING YOU DO, not even CONDITIONAL on YOUR BELIEVING!"
And now you say, "BELIEVE ON CHRIST, and you WILL be SAVED."

See why you can't believe a single thing a Christian says?
"If we believe absurdities we shall commit atrocities." -- Voltaire
sovereigngracereigns
Posts: 585
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9/14/2014 2:28:11 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/14/2014 2:23:24 AM, Beastt wrote:
At 9/14/2014 2:02:25 AM, sovereigngracereigns wrote:
At 9/14/2014 1:10:11 AM, Beastt wrote:

No, you're the one not interested in the truth.

Did God create Hell?
Did God make the rule that disbelief means eternity in torment?

Guess what? Those two things together make the whole thing an extortionate plot. You can't "save" someone from a peril that YOU created. If you created the peril, and require any conditions before you'll withdraw that peril... it's EXTORTION!

If God wanted to save people, he'd just save them... simple forgiveness. That's all it would take.
Stop referring back to your doctrine for one minute and just think it through!

Oh, come on, Beastt.

Salvation is NOT at ALL like a MUGGING, it's an act of MERCY!
So... God isn't just?

The sinner is guilty. He's sinned against God.
Which God knew they would do even before he "designed" them, and even before he created his list of "sins".

And God has the right to condemn the sinner.
Not if he also designed and created that sinner.

But God, in his MERCY, decides he wants to PARDON the sinner.
But that's not what he does.

And God, in his JUSTICE, says, "I will NOT pardon a sinner by THROWING OUT MY HOLY LAW.
I will be MERCIFUL, but ONLY according to JUSTICE."
How is it just to punish the innocent and let the guilty go free? Would you approve of a judicial system that functions that way?

So, his Son, Jesus Christ, who LOVES his FATHER, says, "Father, SEND ME to be a SACRIFICE for SIN. I want to glorify you by dying to save that poor, condemned sinner."
So Jesus - being God - wants to glorify himself, by dying needlessly (yet not dying), for sins he didn't commit, which do nothing to rectify the wrongs done.

And God the Father says, "Son, I will glorify you for dying in the place of that poor, condemned sinner, because there is no greater love than that a man lay down his life for his friends."
And how does dying needlessly (while not dying), "glorify" anyone, or anything? Dying is about not being alive anymore. There's no "glory" connected to that.

And so Jesus Christ came to die on the cross, to make an atonement for that poor, condemned sinner.
And yet, there is no "atonement". Atonement means to fix, repair, rectify, or correct the wrongs done. Hanging on a cross until you suffocate doesn't fix anything.

And guess what...

That poor, condemned sinner was ME, and I'm FREE from any threat of Hell!
I'm not motivated to serve God out of fear of Hell, I'm motivated by deep GRATITUDE!
And would you be free from that threat if you didn't believe in God or Jesus? Are you going to tell me that one doesn't have to believe in God, Jesus or the "sacrifice" in order to be free of the threat of Hell?

I will NEVER be condemned because CHRIST DIED for ME.
And IT MAY BE that Christ died for YOU.
What do you mean "may be"? Is it conditional?

And so, I'm telling you, from one sinner to another, there's MERCY in CHRIST.
Which means there's no justice in Christ. (Justice and mercy are mutually exclusive.)

I have EXPERIENCED the PEACE and JOY that comes with the forgiveness of sins.
And I want YOU to experience it too!
So PLEASE, just listen to me.

I'm just like a beggar who knows where to find bread, telling another beggar where he can find it.

I'm not your enemy.
I'm trying to HELP you.
Now, PLEASE TAKE the HELP!

Come on, Beastt.
Just listen to reason.
I'm telling you, there's FULL PARDON for SINS IN CHRIST!

Just come and GET it!
There's NOTHING STOPPING YOU from receiving FORGIVENESS and MERCY in CHRIST!
Are you saying that I have to believe, or I don't receive the pardon from God's threat of Hell?
Isn't that like if I don't turn over my wallet, I don't receive a pardon from the mugger's gun?

Christ says:
The Bible doesn't contain any words of Jesus.

Now, please LISTEN:

That's NOT CONDITIONAL on ANYTHING YOU DO, not even CONDITIONAL on YOUR BELIEVING!

The salvation of sinners was ALREADY ACCOMPLISHED when JESUS CHRIST DIED and ROSE AGAIN.

God does not save anyone BECAUSE they BELIEVE.
They BELIEVE because GOD GIVES THEM FAITH!
Faith to believe?

And Christ did NOT DIE for EVERYONE.
He DIED for the people who were GIVEN to him before he made the world.

He said:
"All that the Father gives me WILL come to me, and the one who comes to me I will by no means cast out." (John 6:37)
You don't know anything that Jesus said, or even if Jesus said anything. We have fictional stories written by people who never knew him, decades after he was supposed to have died.

So, if you WANT salvation, it's YOURS!
Just COME and GET IT, it's WAITING for YOU!
And I don't have to do anything to get it?

Salvation IS CHRIST.
And CHRIST IS SALVATION.
BELIEVE ON CHRIST, and you WILL be SAVED.

WAIT A SECOND!!! WHY DID YOU LIE???
You said, "That's NOT CONDITIONAL on ANYTHING YOU DO, not even CONDITIONAL on YOUR BELIEVING!"
And now you say, "BELIEVE ON CHRIST, and you WILL be SAVED."

See why you can't believe a single thing a Christian says?

Alright, well you're still in complete jerk-mode, obviously. So I won't waste any more time trying to convince you tonight.

But again, please let me know if you ever have a genuine desire to understand, and I'll be glad to try to help you understand.
Beastt
Posts: 5,135
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9/14/2014 2:31:57 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/14/2014 2:28:11 AM, sovereigngracereigns wrote:
At 9/14/2014 2:23:24 AM, Beastt wrote:
At 9/14/2014 2:02:25 AM, sovereigngracereigns wrote:
At 9/14/2014 1:10:11 AM, Beastt wrote:

No, you're the one not interested in the truth.

Did God create Hell?
Did God make the rule that disbelief means eternity in torment?

Guess what? Those two things together make the whole thing an extortionate plot. You can't "save" someone from a peril that YOU created. If you created the peril, and require any conditions before you'll withdraw that peril... it's EXTORTION!

If God wanted to save people, he'd just save them... simple forgiveness. That's all it would take.
Stop referring back to your doctrine for one minute and just think it through!

Oh, come on, Beastt.

Salvation is NOT at ALL like a MUGGING, it's an act of MERCY!
So... God isn't just?

The sinner is guilty. He's sinned against God.
Which God knew they would do even before he "designed" them, and even before he created his list of "sins".

And God has the right to condemn the sinner.
Not if he also designed and created that sinner.

But God, in his MERCY, decides he wants to PARDON the sinner.
But that's not what he does.

And God, in his JUSTICE, says, "I will NOT pardon a sinner by THROWING OUT MY HOLY LAW.
I will be MERCIFUL, but ONLY according to JUSTICE."
How is it just to punish the innocent and let the guilty go free? Would you approve of a judicial system that functions that way?

So, his Son, Jesus Christ, who LOVES his FATHER, says, "Father, SEND ME to be a SACRIFICE for SIN. I want to glorify you by dying to save that poor, condemned sinner."
So Jesus - being God - wants to glorify himself, by dying needlessly (yet not dying), for sins he didn't commit, which do nothing to rectify the wrongs done.

And God the Father says, "Son, I will glorify you for dying in the place of that poor, condemned sinner, because there is no greater love than that a man lay down his life for his friends."
And how does dying needlessly (while not dying), "glorify" anyone, or anything? Dying is about not being alive anymore. There's no "glory" connected to that.

And so Jesus Christ came to die on the cross, to make an atonement for that poor, condemned sinner.
And yet, there is no "atonement". Atonement means to fix, repair, rectify, or correct the wrongs done. Hanging on a cross until you suffocate doesn't fix anything.

And guess what...

That poor, condemned sinner was ME, and I'm FREE from any threat of Hell!
I'm not motivated to serve God out of fear of Hell, I'm motivated by deep GRATITUDE!
And would you be free from that threat if you didn't believe in God or Jesus? Are you going to tell me that one doesn't have to believe in God, Jesus or the "sacrifice" in order to be free of the threat of Hell?

I will NEVER be condemned because CHRIST DIED for ME.
And IT MAY BE that Christ died for YOU.
What do you mean "may be"? Is it conditional?

And so, I'm telling you, from one sinner to another, there's MERCY in CHRIST.
Which means there's no justice in Christ. (Justice and mercy are mutually exclusive.)

I have EXPERIENCED the PEACE and JOY that comes with the forgiveness of sins.
And I want YOU to experience it too!
So PLEASE, just listen to me.

I'm just like a beggar who knows where to find bread, telling another beggar where he can find it.

I'm not your enemy.
I'm trying to HELP you.
Now, PLEASE TAKE the HELP!

Come on, Beastt.
Just listen to reason.
I'm telling you, there's FULL PARDON for SINS IN CHRIST!

Just come and GET it!
There's NOTHING STOPPING YOU from receiving FORGIVENESS and MERCY in CHRIST!
Are you saying that I have to believe, or I don't receive the pardon from God's threat of Hell?
Isn't that like if I don't turn over my wallet, I don't receive a pardon from the mugger's gun?

Christ says:
The Bible doesn't contain any words of Jesus.

Now, please LISTEN:

That's NOT CONDITIONAL on ANYTHING YOU DO, not even CONDITIONAL on YOUR BELIEVING!

The salvation of sinners was ALREADY ACCOMPLISHED when JESUS CHRIST DIED and ROSE AGAIN.

God does not save anyone BECAUSE they BELIEVE.
They BELIEVE because GOD GIVES THEM FAITH!
Faith to believe?

And Christ did NOT DIE for EVERYONE.
He DIED for the people who were GIVEN to him before he made the world.

He said:
"All that the Father gives me WILL come to me, and the one who comes to me I will by no means cast out." (John 6:37)
You don't know anything that Jesus said, or even if Jesus said anything. We have fictional stories written by people who never knew him, decades after he was supposed to have died.

So, if you WANT salvation, it's YOURS!
Just COME and GET IT, it's WAITING for YOU!
And I don't have to do anything to get it?

Salvation IS CHRIST.
And CHRIST IS SALVATION.
BELIEVE ON CHRIST, and you WILL be SAVED.

WAIT A SECOND!!! WHY DID YOU LIE???
You said, "That's NOT CONDITIONAL on ANYTHING YOU DO, not even CONDITIONAL on YOUR BELIEVING!"
And now you say, "BELIEVE ON CHRIST, and you WILL be SAVED."

See why you can't believe a single thing a Christian says?

Alright, well you're still in complete jerk-mode, obviously. So I won't waste any more time trying to convince you tonight.

But again, please let me know if you ever have a genuine desire to understand, and I'll be glad to try to help you understand.

Back it down. Don't call me a "jerk" when you're the one trying to pass off a lie. You said "salvation" wasn't conditional upon my belief, and then you turn right around and tell me I have to "believe on Christ" (a completely meaningless Bible burp), before I receive salvation... which makes it EXTORTION.
"If we believe absurdities we shall commit atrocities." -- Voltaire
bornofgod
Posts: 11,322
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9/14/2014 9:36:23 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/13/2014 9:59:42 PM, Beastt wrote:
By definition, if one is threatened with a peril, and the same one threatening the peril offers to withdraw that peril in exchange for anything thought to be of value, that is extortion.

So if a mugger, uses a gun as a threat, but offers not to use the gun in exchange for your money, that is extortion.

By the same token, if God, uses Hell as a threat, but offers to withdraw the threat in exchange for your love and belief, that is extortion.

God/Jesus is not your savior. He's your extortionist.

That's a great way of expressing the false deity in the minds of Christians. They have no idea who God is or the deeper meanings of the prophecies that were written by God's prophets.

There's a reason God uses atheists to keep these fools ( Christians ) from getting too proud.
Double_R
Posts: 4,886
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9/14/2014 10:56:28 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/14/2014 2:02:25 AM, sovereigngracereigns wrote:
So, his Son, Jesus Christ, who LOVES his FATHER, says, "Father, SEND ME to be a SACRIFICE for SIN. I want to glorify you by dying to save that poor, condemned sinner."

And God the Father says, "Son, I will glorify you for dying in the place of that poor, condemned sinner, because there is no greater love than that a man lay down his life for his friends."

And so Jesus Christ came to die on the cross, to make an atonement for that poor, condemned sinner.

And guess what...

That poor, condemned sinner was ME,

Question: So without Jesus sacrifice are you telling me that God could not have made atonement for us? Yes or No?

and I'm FREE from any threat of Hell!

Ok, let's go back to the OP's point which you have completely avoided.

[A mugger] chooses to place your well being in danger by [pointing a Gun at you] and informing you that he will [pull the trigger] if you don't do what he says.

[God] chooses to place your well being in danger by [creating a place of eternal torture] and informing you that he will [send you there] if you don't do what he says.

Explain to me how it is not accurate to compare what God is doing to what a mugger does being that you can literally interchange what they are doing in the same exact sentence and it still works.
bulproof
Posts: 25,203
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9/14/2014 11:29:26 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/14/2014 2:02:25 AM, sovereigngracereigns wrote:
and I'm FREE from any threat of Hell!

So you can go and shag the neighbours cat and the neighbour and murder a truckload of schoolkids and you're as safe as Paul.

Good for you.......................sociopaths should get onto this.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
Beastt
Posts: 5,135
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9/14/2014 1:30:15 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/14/2014 9:36:23 AM, bornofgod wrote:
At 9/13/2014 9:59:42 PM, Beastt wrote:
By definition, if one is threatened with a peril, and the same one threatening the peril offers to withdraw that peril in exchange for anything thought to be of value, that is extortion.

So if a mugger, uses a gun as a threat, but offers not to use the gun in exchange for your money, that is extortion.

By the same token, if God, uses Hell as a threat, but offers to withdraw the threat in exchange for your love and belief, that is extortion.

God/Jesus is not your savior. He's your extortionist.

That's a great way of expressing the false deity in the minds of Christians. They have no idea who God is or the deeper meanings of the prophecies that were written by God's prophets.
Nor do you.

There's a reason God uses atheists to keep these fools ( Christians ) from getting too proud.
God is imaginary. You help to demonstrate that.
"If we believe absurdities we shall commit atrocities." -- Voltaire
sovereigngracereigns
Posts: 585
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9/14/2014 6:20:44 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/14/2014 2:31:57 AM, Beastt wrote:
At 9/14/2014 2:28:11 AM, sovereigngracereigns wrote:
At 9/14/2014 2:23:24 AM, Beastt wrote:
At 9/14/2014 2:02:25 AM, sovereigngracereigns wrote:
At 9/14/2014 1:10:11 AM, Beastt wrote:

No, you're the one not interested in the truth.

Did God create Hell?
Did God make the rule that disbelief means eternity in torment?

Guess what? Those two things together make the whole thing an extortionate plot. You can't "save" someone from a peril that YOU created. If you created the peril, and require any conditions before you'll withdraw that peril... it's EXTORTION!

If God wanted to save people, he'd just save them... simple forgiveness. That's all it would take.
Stop referring back to your doctrine for one minute and just think it through!

Oh, come on, Beastt.

Salvation is NOT at ALL like a MUGGING, it's an act of MERCY!
So... God isn't just?

The sinner is guilty. He's sinned against God.
Which God knew they would do even before he "designed" them, and even before he created his list of "sins".

And God has the right to condemn the sinner.
Not if he also designed and created that sinner.

But God, in his MERCY, decides he wants to PARDON the sinner.
But that's not what he does.

And God, in his JUSTICE, says, "I will NOT pardon a sinner by THROWING OUT MY HOLY LAW.
I will be MERCIFUL, but ONLY according to JUSTICE."
How is it just to punish the innocent and let the guilty go free? Would you approve of a judicial system that functions that way?

So, his Son, Jesus Christ, who LOVES his FATHER, says, "Father, SEND ME to be a SACRIFICE for SIN. I want to glorify you by dying to save that poor, condemned sinner."
So Jesus - being God - wants to glorify himself, by dying needlessly (yet not dying), for sins he didn't commit, which do nothing to rectify the wrongs done.

And God the Father says, "Son, I will glorify you for dying in the place of that poor, condemned sinner, because there is no greater love than that a man lay down his life for his friends."
And how does dying needlessly (while not dying), "glorify" anyone, or anything? Dying is about not being alive anymore. There's no "glory" connected to that.

And so Jesus Christ came to die on the cross, to make an atonement for that poor, condemned sinner.
And yet, there is no "atonement". Atonement means to fix, repair, rectify, or correct the wrongs done. Hanging on a cross until you suffocate doesn't fix anything.

And guess what...

That poor, condemned sinner was ME, and I'm FREE from any threat of Hell!
I'm not motivated to serve God out of fear of Hell, I'm motivated by deep GRATITUDE!
And would you be free from that threat if you didn't believe in God or Jesus? Are you going to tell me that one doesn't have to believe in God, Jesus or the "sacrifice" in order to be free of the threat of Hell?

I will NEVER be condemned because CHRIST DIED for ME.
And IT MAY BE that Christ died for YOU.
What do you mean "may be"? Is it conditional?

And so, I'm telling you, from one sinner to another, there's MERCY in CHRIST.
Which means there's no justice in Christ. (Justice and mercy are mutually exclusive.)

I have EXPERIENCED the PEACE and JOY that comes with the forgiveness of sins.
And I want YOU to experience it too!
So PLEASE, just listen to me.

I'm just like a beggar who knows where to find bread, telling another beggar where he can find it.

I'm not your enemy.
I'm trying to HELP you.
Now, PLEASE TAKE the HELP!

Come on, Beastt.
Just listen to reason.
I'm telling you, there's FULL PARDON for SINS IN CHRIST!

Just come and GET it!
There's NOTHING STOPPING YOU from receiving FORGIVENESS and MERCY in CHRIST!
Are you saying that I have to believe, or I don't receive the pardon from God's threat of Hell?
Isn't that like if I don't turn over my wallet, I don't receive a pardon from the mugger's gun?

Christ says:
The Bible doesn't contain any words of Jesus.

Now, please LISTEN:

That's NOT CONDITIONAL on ANYTHING YOU DO, not even CONDITIONAL on YOUR BELIEVING!

The salvation of sinners was ALREADY ACCOMPLISHED when JESUS CHRIST DIED and ROSE AGAIN.

God does not save anyone BECAUSE they BELIEVE.
They BELIEVE because GOD GIVES THEM FAITH!
Faith to believe?

And Christ did NOT DIE for EVERYONE.
He DIED for the people who were GIVEN to him before he made the world.

He said:
"All that the Father gives me WILL come to me, and the one who comes to me I will by no means cast out." (John 6:37)
You don't know anything that Jesus said, or even if Jesus said anything. We have fictional stories written by people who never knew him, decades after he was supposed to have died.

So, if you WANT salvation, it's YOURS!
Just COME and GET IT, it's WAITING for YOU!
And I don't have to do anything to get it?

Salvation IS CHRIST.
And CHRIST IS SALVATION.
BELIEVE ON CHRIST, and you WILL be SAVED.

WAIT A SECOND!!! WHY DID YOU LIE???
You said, "That's NOT CONDITIONAL on ANYTHING YOU DO, not even CONDITIONAL on YOUR BELIEVING!"
And now you say, "BELIEVE ON CHRIST, and you WILL be SAVED."

See why you can't believe a single thing a Christian says?

Alright, well you're still in complete jerk-mode, obviously. So I won't waste any more time trying to convince you tonight.

But again, please let me know if you ever have a genuine desire to understand, and I'll be glad to try to help you understand.

Back it down. Don't call me a "jerk" when you're the one trying to pass off a lie. You said "salvation" wasn't conditional upon my belief, and then you turn right around and tell me I have to "believe on Christ" (a completely meaningless Bible burp), before I receive salvation... which makes it EXTORTION.

There are no conditions for you to meet, because CHRIST ALREADY MET all the conditions.

His perfect, sinless life of obedience to the law is imputed (charged) to those who trust in him.

And his sacrificial death as their Substitute paid the debt that they owed for breaking God's law.

And God has declared that the sacrifice was ACCEPTED by raising Christ up from the dead when the work was FINISHED.


And so, faith in Christ is CEASING FROM WORKING TO PLEASE GOD and RESTING IN WHAT CHRIST HAS ACCOMPLISHED.

God CANNOT accept the works of a sinner, but he CAN and DOES accept the work of CHRIST on BEHALF of the sinner.

Now, is that really so hard to UNDERSTAND?

Or is it just hard to BELIEVE?
sovereigngracereigns
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9/14/2014 6:26:56 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/14/2014 10:56:28 AM, Double_R wrote:
At 9/14/2014 2:02:25 AM, sovereigngracereigns wrote:
So, his Son, Jesus Christ, who LOVES his FATHER, says, "Father, SEND ME to be a SACRIFICE for SIN. I want to glorify you by dying to save that poor, condemned sinner."

And God the Father says, "Son, I will glorify you for dying in the place of that poor, condemned sinner, because there is no greater love than that a man lay down his life for his friends."

And so Jesus Christ came to die on the cross, to make an atonement for that poor, condemned sinner.

And guess what...

That poor, condemned sinner was ME,

Question: So without Jesus sacrifice are you telling me that God could not have made atonement for us? Yes or No?


and I'm FREE from any threat of Hell!

Ok, let's go back to the OP's point which you have completely avoided.

I have intentionally IGNORED it because it's IRRELEVANT.

What Beastt needs to know is HOW GOD SAVES SINNERS.

I care more about his soul than his silly arguments, so I intentionally bring it back to the Gospel.


[A mugger] chooses to place your well being in danger by [pointing a Gun at you] and informing you that he will [pull the trigger] if you don't do what he says.

[God] chooses to place your well being in danger by [creating a place of eternal torture] and informing you that he will [send you there] if you don't do what he says.

Explain to me how it is not accurate to compare what God is doing to what a mugger does being that you can literally interchange what they are doing in the same exact sentence and it still works.

If you think the salvation of sinners is anything like a mugging, it's because you are under a very strong delusion.

And unless God opens your eyes under the preaching of the Gospel, you will die in your sins and go to Hell.
sovereigngracereigns
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9/14/2014 6:33:33 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/14/2014 10:56:28 AM, Double_R wrote:
At 9/14/2014 2:02:25 AM, sovereigngracereigns wrote:
So, his Son, Jesus Christ, who LOVES his FATHER, says, "Father, SEND ME to be a SACRIFICE for SIN. I want to glorify you by dying to save that poor, condemned sinner."

And God the Father says, "Son, I will glorify you for dying in the place of that poor, condemned sinner, because there is no greater love than that a man lay down his life for his friends."

And so Jesus Christ came to die on the cross, to make an atonement for that poor, condemned sinner.

And guess what...

That poor, condemned sinner was ME,

Question: So without Jesus sacrifice are you telling me that God could not have made atonement for us? Yes or No?


Yes. That's exactly what I'm saying.


There was no other way.

If there were any other way, surely God would have spared his own Son.
Double_R
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9/14/2014 6:53:44 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/14/2014 6:26:56 PM, sovereigngracereigns wrote:
And unless God opens your eyes under the preaching of the Gospel, you will die in your sins and go to Hell.

And if you don't stop being mean to me I will make sure that Santa puts you on his naughty list.

Sarcasm aside, that is exactly what you sound like to me. So would you care to stop with the silly little childish threats and start attempting to have an intelligent discussion? If not then just say so so that can move onto someone who might actually care to start thinking.

Ok, let's go back to the OP's point which you have completely avoided.

I have intentionally IGNORED it because it's IRRELEVANT.

What Beastt needs to know is HOW GOD SAVES SINNERS.

I care more about his soul than his silly arguments, so I intentionally bring it back to the Gospel.


[A mugger] chooses to place your well being in danger by [pointing a Gun at you] and informing you that he will [pull the trigger] if you don't do what he says.

[God] chooses to place your well being in danger by [creating a place of eternal torture] and informing you that he will [send you there] if you don't do what he says.

Explain to me how it is not accurate to compare what God is doing to what a mugger does being that you can literally interchange what they are doing in the same exact sentence and it still works.

If you think the salvation of sinners is anything like a mugging, it's because you are under a very strong delusion.

I gave you a specific side by side comparison showing you how your God is exactly like a mugger and your response is to ignore the comparison completely, then tell me I am delusional for thinking it? Wow. Please do yourself a favor and look up the word delusional.
Double_R
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9/14/2014 6:54:42 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/14/2014 6:33:33 PM, sovereigngracereigns wrote:
At 9/14/2014 10:56:28 AM, Double_R wrote:
At 9/14/2014 2:02:25 AM, sovereigngracereigns wrote:
So, his Son, Jesus Christ, who LOVES his FATHER, says, "Father, SEND ME to be a SACRIFICE for SIN. I want to glorify you by dying to save that poor, condemned sinner."

And God the Father says, "Son, I will glorify you for dying in the place of that poor, condemned sinner, because there is no greater love than that a man lay down his life for his friends."

And so Jesus Christ came to die on the cross, to make an atonement for that poor, condemned sinner.

And guess what...

That poor, condemned sinner was ME,

Question: So without Jesus sacrifice are you telling me that God could not have made atonement for us? Yes or No?


Yes. That's exactly what I'm saying.


There was no other way.

If there were any other way, surely God would have spared his own Son.

So to be clear, God is not all powerful correct?
jh1234lnew
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9/14/2014 7:18:37 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/13/2014 9:59:42 PM, Beastt wrote:
By definition, if one is threatened with a peril, and the same one threatening the peril offers to withdraw that peril in exchange for anything thought to be of value, that is extortion.

So if a mugger, uses a gun as a threat, but offers not to use the gun in exchange for your money, that is extortion.

By the same token, if God, uses Hell as a threat, but offers to withdraw the threat in exchange for your love and belief, that is extortion.

God/Jesus is not your savior. He's your extortionist.

You perceive the Christian concept of salvation as extortion, and uses that as evidence that God does not exist.

I perceive the mugging as extortion, therefore the mugger does not exist and the gun is not a threat.

As you can see, this is a red herring: whether or not you perceive something as extortion does not affect its validity. The mugging is extortion, but that does not mean that the mugger does not exist and the gun is not a threat.

Plus, you overly simplified the idea of Christian salvation to make it fit your definition of extortion, by squeezing such a detailed concept into the same sentence structure as the mugging sentence. By this logic:

So if a mugger, uses a gun as a threat, but offers not to use the gun in exchange for your money, that is extortion.

By the same token, if you use your belief of God's nonexistance as a threat, but offers to withdraw the threat in exchange for agreement, that is extortion.


You did not commit extortion, but I can misrepresent your argument to show that you did.

God did not commit extortion, but you just misrepresented the Bible to show that God did.
sovereigngracereigns
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9/14/2014 7:28:40 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/14/2014 6:53:44 PM, Double_R wrote:
At 9/14/2014 6:26:56 PM, sovereigngracereigns wrote:
And unless God opens your eyes under the preaching of the Gospel, you will die in your sins and go to Hell.

And if you don't stop being mean to me I will make sure that Santa puts you on his naughty list.

Sarcasm aside, that is exactly what you sound like to me. So would you care to stop with the silly little childish threats and start attempting to have an intelligent discussion? If not then just say so so that can move onto someone who might actually care to start thinking.

Or maybe I'm just telling you what the Bible says.

Maybe it's not as personal as you think.


Ok, let's go back to the OP's point which you have completely avoided.

I have intentionally IGNORED it because it's IRRELEVANT.

What Beastt needs to know is HOW GOD SAVES SINNERS.

I care more about his soul than his silly arguments, so I intentionally bring it back to the Gospel.


[A mugger] chooses to place your well being in danger by [pointing a Gun at you] and informing you that he will [pull the trigger] if you don't do what he says.

[God] chooses to place your well being in danger by [creating a place of eternal torture] and informing you that he will [send you there] if you don't do what he says.

Explain to me how it is not accurate to compare what God is doing to what a mugger does being that you can literally interchange what they are doing in the same exact sentence and it still works.

If you think the salvation of sinners is anything like a mugging, it's because you are under a very strong delusion.

I gave you a specific side by side comparison showing you how your God is exactly like a mugger and your response is to ignore the comparison completely, then tell me I am delusional for thinking it? Wow. Please do yourself a favor and look up the word delusional.

Yeah, I'm ignoring it.

It's just too stupid to compare the salvation of sinners to a mugging.

It's not worth the time or the effort to point out how ridiculous that is.

So get over it.
sovereigngracereigns
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9/14/2014 7:33:01 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/14/2014 6:54:42 PM, Double_R wrote:
At 9/14/2014 6:33:33 PM, sovereigngracereigns wrote:
At 9/14/2014 10:56:28 AM, Double_R wrote:
At 9/14/2014 2:02:25 AM, sovereigngracereigns wrote:
So, his Son, Jesus Christ, who LOVES his FATHER, says, "Father, SEND ME to be a SACRIFICE for SIN. I want to glorify you by dying to save that poor, condemned sinner."

And God the Father says, "Son, I will glorify you for dying in the place of that poor, condemned sinner, because there is no greater love than that a man lay down his life for his friends."

And so Jesus Christ came to die on the cross, to make an atonement for that poor, condemned sinner.

And guess what...

That poor, condemned sinner was ME,

Question: So without Jesus sacrifice are you telling me that God could not have made atonement for us? Yes or No?


Yes. That's exactly what I'm saying.


There was no other way.

If there were any other way, surely God would have spared his own Son.

So to be clear, God is not all powerful correct?

No, that's not correct.

God IS all powerful.

That means he does whatsoever he pleases.

And it PLEASES him to save sinners by his Son, Jesus Christ.

And so THERE IS NO OTHER WAY.
sovereigngracereigns
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9/14/2014 7:41:20 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/14/2014 12:15:29 AM, Beastt wrote:
At 9/13/2014 10:51:35 PM, sovereigngracereigns wrote:
At 9/13/2014 9:59:42 PM, Beastt wrote:
By definition, if one is threatened with a peril, and the same one threatening the peril offers to withdraw that peril in exchange for anything thought to be of value, that is extortion.

So if a mugger, uses a gun as a threat, but offers not to use the gun in exchange for your money, that is extortion.

By the same token, if God, uses Hell as a threat, but offers to withdraw the threat in exchange for your love and belief, that is extortion.

God/Jesus is not your savior. He's your extortionist.

Except you've got the whole thing wrong.

Please listen:

God is the law-giver and the judge. And every single one of us has broken his law.
And he has the right to execute justice on each and every one of us.

But, in his sovereign purpose of grace, he elected to save a people for himself.
And he sent his own Son to this world to pay for their sins.

Now, all those for whom Christ died will not be condemned, but have been given eternal life.
And God's Holy Spirit will call out each one of them by name, in time.

And each one of them will believe that Christ is their Lord and Savior and Heavenly Advocate, who reigns from his heavenly throne, interceding for them.

They will worship and praise his name, and be motivated by love and gratitude, not by the threat of Hell, because Christ has already paid their debt!

You see, the BELIEVER has NO REASON to fear Hell.
There is NO CONDEMNATION for HIM!

It is the one who does NOT believe who ought to fear Hell.


The Word of God says:
"He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him." (John 3:36)

And Christ said:
16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
18 "He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. 21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God."
(John 3:16-21)

Now, one of two things is true.

Either:
1. You are one of the elect, and you will eventually be delivered.
or
2. You're not one of the elect, and you will most certainly go to Hell.

It's one of those two.

And though God is in sovereign control of that, it is YOUR RESPONSIBILITY to SEEK HIS MERCY WHILE THERE IS TIME, or SUFFER the CONSEQUENCES.

The Word of God says:
"Come now, and let us reason together,"
Says the Lord,
"Though your sins are like scarlet,
They shall be as white as snow;
Though they are red like crimson,
They shall be as wool.
19
If you are willing and obedient,
You shall eat the good of the land;
20
But if you refuse and rebel,
You shall be devoured by the sword";
For the mouth of the Lord has spoken.
(Isaiah 1:18-20)

Don't be a FOOL.
Come to CHRIST!

Just drop all this nonsense, and seek the Lord's mercy.
If you go out of that door marked "death" without Christ, you're going to Hell.

Please listen to these words of Christ.
He said:
14 I am the good shepherd; and I know My sheep, and am known by My own. 15 As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep. 16 And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd. (John 10:14-16)

I hope to see you in Heaven, Beastt.
I hope you are one of God's sheep, my friend.

I hope you will hear the voice of Christ in the Scriptures I quoted.

It would be so wonderful, Beastt, to see you praising the name of the Lord Jesus Christ.

I'm praying for you, friend.
I hope that you will be my brother in Christ.

Sincerely,
SGR

Bottom Line: You're threatened with Hell. But if you give your Belief. Then the threat is withdrawn.
Just like: You're threatened with a gun. But if you give your wallet. The threat is withdrawn.

God... Hell... Belief
Mugger... Gun... Wallet

Extortion, either way.

Beastt, let me ask you a question:

Even if what you're saying were true (which it isn't) that God uses the threat of Hell like a mugger uses a gun....
...Tell me, SINCE WHEN does a MUGGER use a gun to SAVE YOU FROM YOUR SINS and DELIVER YOU from HELL????


Or let's make it even simpler:

Since when does a MUGGER use a gun to HELP YOU in any way?

Doesn't a mugger use a gun to STEAL FROM YOU, rather than GIVE YOU SOMETHING that BENEFITS YOU?

Are you beginning to see just how DUMB your analogy is???

If not, then you are severely handicapped.
Double_R
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9/14/2014 9:06:29 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/14/2014 7:28:40 PM, sovereigngracereigns wrote:
At 9/14/2014 6:53:44 PM, Double_R wrote:
Sarcasm aside, that is exactly what you sound like to me. So would you care to stop with the silly little childish threats and start attempting to have an intelligent discussion? If not then just say so so that can move onto someone who might actually care to start thinking.

Or maybe I'm just telling you what the Bible says.

Maybe it's not as personal as you think.

Who said anything about personal? I don't care what the bible says. That's the point. And the entire purpose of having these discussions is to determine if you or I should care. If that is not your purpose, and you are immune to being enlightened on anything regarding this subject then just say so and I will find someone who is interested in an intelligent conversation to discuss this with.

I gave you a specific side by side comparison showing you how your God is exactly like a mugger and your response is to ignore the comparison completely, then tell me I am delusional for thinking it? Wow. Please do yourself a favor and look up the word delusional.

Yeah, I'm ignoring it.

It's just too stupid to compare the salvation of sinners to a mugging.

It's not worth the time or the effort to point out how ridiculous that is.

So get over it.

In other words "I am too afraid to confront my beliefs that I am just going to call anything in opposition to them stupid and walk away feeling like I accomplished something".

Let me know how that works out for you. And by the way, do you coddle every other belief you hold in life the same way? Just curious.
sovereigngracereigns
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9/14/2014 9:06:31 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/14/2014 7:28:40 PM, sovereigngracereigns wrote:
At 9/14/2014 6:53:44 PM, Double_R wrote:
At 9/14/2014 6:26:56 PM, sovereigngracereigns wrote:
And unless God opens your eyes under the preaching of the Gospel, you will die in your sins and go to Hell.

And if you don't stop being mean to me I will make sure that Santa puts you on his naughty list.

Sarcasm aside, that is exactly what you sound like to me. So would you care to stop with the silly little childish threats and start attempting to have an intelligent discussion? If not then just say so so that can move onto someone who might actually care to start thinking.

Or maybe I'm just telling you what the Bible says.

Maybe it's not as personal as you think.


Ok, let's go back to the OP's point which you have completely avoided.

I have intentionally IGNORED it because it's IRRELEVANT.

What Beastt needs to know is HOW GOD SAVES SINNERS.

I care more about his soul than his silly arguments, so I intentionally bring it back to the Gospel.


[A mugger] chooses to place your well being in danger by [pointing a Gun at you] and informing you that he will [pull the trigger] if you don't do what he says.

[God] chooses to place your well being in danger by [creating a place of eternal torture] and informing you that he will [send you there] if you don't do what he says.

Explain to me how it is not accurate to compare what God is doing to what a mugger does being that you can literally interchange what they are doing in the same exact sentence and it still works.


When someone gets mugged, they LOSE something of value.

When God saves a person from going to Hell, they GAIN something of INFINITE VALUE.

When someone mugs you, YOU LOSE and HE GAINS.

But CHRIST LOST so that OTHERS would GAIN.

Are you beginning to see how nonsensical it is to compare the salvation of sinners with a mugging?

What has God STOLEN from the one whom he saves?
His "right to go to Hell"???
SO WHAT???

Listen, if THAT'S what you call a "MUGGING", then THANK GOD that he "MUGGED" ME!
And I pray that he'll be pleased to "mug" YOU.
sovereigngracereigns
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9/14/2014 9:12:15 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/14/2014 9:06:29 PM, Double_R wrote:
At 9/14/2014 7:28:40 PM, sovereigngracereigns wrote:
At 9/14/2014 6:53:44 PM, Double_R wrote:
Sarcasm aside, that is exactly what you sound like to me. So would you care to stop with the silly little childish threats and start attempting to have an intelligent discussion? If not then just say so so that can move onto someone who might actually care to start thinking.

Or maybe I'm just telling you what the Bible says.

Maybe it's not as personal as you think.

Who said anything about personal? I don't care what the bible says. That's the point. And the entire purpose of having these discussions is to determine if you or I should care. If that is not your purpose, and you are immune to being enlightened on anything regarding this subject then just say so and I will find someone who is interested in an intelligent conversation to discuss this with.

I gave you a specific side by side comparison showing you how your God is exactly like a mugger and your response is to ignore the comparison completely, then tell me I am delusional for thinking it? Wow. Please do yourself a favor and look up the word delusional.

Yeah, I'm ignoring it.

It's just too stupid to compare the salvation of sinners to a mugging.

It's not worth the time or the effort to point out how ridiculous that is.

So get over it.

In other words "I am too afraid to confront my beliefs that I am just going to call anything in opposition to them stupid and walk away feeling like I accomplished something".

Let me know how that works out for you. And by the way, do you coddle every other belief you hold in life the same way? Just curious.

I did actually take a moment to respond to your question, but I accidentally posted it in the wrong place, so you may have missed it.

Here's an answer to your ludicrous question:

When someone gets mugged, they LOSE something of value.

When God saves a person from going to Hell, they GAIN something of INFINITE VALUE.

When someone mugs you, YOU LOSE and HE GAINS.

But CHRIST LOST so that OTHERS would GAIN.

Are you beginning to see how nonsensical it is to compare the salvation of sinners with a mugging?

What has God STOLEN from the one whom he saves?
His "right to go to Hell"???
SO WHAT???

Listen, if THAT'S what you call a "MUGGING", then THANK GOD that he "MUGGED" ME!
And I pray that he'll be pleased to "mug" YOU.
Double_R
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9/14/2014 9:13:26 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/14/2014 7:33:01 PM, sovereigngracereigns wrote:
At 9/14/2014 6:54:42 PM, Double_R wrote:
At 9/14/2014 6:33:33 PM, sovereigngracereigns wrote:
There was no other way.

If there were any other way, surely God would have spared his own Son.

So to be clear, God is not all powerful correct?

No, that's not correct.

God IS all powerful.

That means he does whatsoever he pleases.

And it PLEASES him to save sinners by his Son, Jesus Christ.

And so THERE IS NO OTHER WAY.

Please learn English.

The question was whether there was any other way for God to spare you other than sacrificing Jesus. You claim that there is no other way. This necessarily means one of two things:

A) He does not have the ability to spare you without sacrificing Jesus.

B) He does have the ability, however he chose not to.

If A then he is not all powerful. If B then there was another way. So which is it?