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"that"is a metaphor-can bible be understood?

Artur
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9/16/2014 7:17:46 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
As known by everybody who read the bible but not as accepted by everybody who read the bible-bible is an encyclopedia of errors, absurdities, pornogrophy and e.t.c

bible is a book with 66/73/81 parts which is a collection of errors, absurdities, pornographic stories and some normal writings which make sense.

Now, when non-christians come with errors and etc of bible, the answer is ready: "that is a metaphor", "dont take that sentence literally, God indeed mean something else when he made that sentence"

so, we need to ask now: how can we determine which parts of the bible to be taken literally? For example: how can I know that the parts of the bible which command me to believe in Jesus/God is not a metaphor? If errors are a metaphor, so can be the parts which ask me to believe in Jesus/resurrection.

So, we dont need to take it literally, all parts which say we need to believe in Jesus are metaphors, they meant something else. When bible say: "believe in resurrection" that is a metaphor, we dont need to believe in.

If you are going to say vice versa, we need a scale to determine whether a sentence of the bible is metaphor or literal, what is that scale? Where is that?

Looking to the answers of chrisians, biblethumpers.
"I'm not as soft or as generous a person as I would be if the world hadn't changed me" Bobby Fischer
Artur
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9/16/2014 7:21:48 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
For ex: Jesus prohibited adultery. Jesus says it is ok to eat everything, thing that enters into mouth does not mess us, that that comes out of mouth makes us messy. So, this was a metaphor, what Jesus really meant was:

it is not ok to have sex outside of marriage but oral sex is ok without marriage .

So, here I am not taking the bible literally. If you say this understanding of mine is wrong, I ask you: according to what? According to what scale this needs not to be taken as a metaphor while error needs to be taken not literal?
"I'm not as soft or as generous a person as I would be if the world hadn't changed me" Bobby Fischer
POPOO5560
Posts: 2,490
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9/16/2014 7:25:45 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
1 Corinthians 11:6
For if the woman be not covered, let her also be shorn: but if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be covered.

This is metaphor too u dont need to cover it must mean something else...
Never fart near dog
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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9/16/2014 7:34:07 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/16/2014 7:17:46 AM, Artur wrote:
As known by everybody who read the bible but not as accepted by everybody who read the bible-bible is an encyclopedia of errors, absurdities, pornogrophy and e.t.c

bible is a book with 66/73/81 parts which is a collection of errors, absurdities, pornographic stories and some normal writings which make sense.

Now, when non-christians come with errors and etc of bible, the answer is ready: "that is a metaphor", "dont take that sentence literally, God indeed mean something else when he made that sentence"

so, we need to ask now: how can we determine which parts of the bible to be taken literally? For example: how can I know that the parts of the bible which command me to believe in Jesus/God is not a metaphor? If errors are a metaphor, so can be the parts which ask me to believe in Jesus/resurrection.

So, we dont need to take it literally, all parts which say we need to believe in Jesus are metaphors, they meant something else. When bible say: "believe in resurrection" that is a metaphor, we dont need to believe in.

If you are going to say vice versa, we need a scale to determine whether a sentence of the bible is metaphor or literal, what is that scale? Where is that?

Looking to the answers of chrisians, biblethumpers.

How can you know what is not true.

There are no errors in scripture, only in the understanding of it by people such as yourself.

Show me what you consider to be an error, and I will happily show you where you have gone wrong.
Artur
Posts: 725
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9/16/2014 7:37:39 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/16/2014 7:34:07 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 9/16/2014 7:17:46 AM, Artur wrote:
As known by everybody who read the bible but not as accepted by everybody who read the bible-bible is an encyclopedia of errors, absurdities, pornogrophy and e.t.c

bible is a book with 66/73/81 parts which is a collection of errors, absurdities, pornographic stories and some normal writings which make sense.

Now, when non-christians come with errors and etc of bible, the answer is ready: "that is a metaphor", "dont take that sentence literally, God indeed mean something else when he made that sentence"

so, we need to ask now: how can we determine which parts of the bible to be taken literally? For example: how can I know that the parts of the bible which command me to believe in Jesus/God is not a metaphor? If errors are a metaphor, so can be the parts which ask me to believe in Jesus/resurrection.

So, we dont need to take it literally, all parts which say we need to believe in Jesus are metaphors, they meant something else. When bible say: "believe in resurrection" that is a metaphor, we dont need to believe in.

If you are going to say vice versa, we need a scale to determine whether a sentence of the bible is metaphor or literal, what is that scale? Where is that?

Looking to the answers of chrisians, biblethumpers.

How can you know what is not true.

There are no errors in scripture, only in the understanding of it by people such as yourself.

Show me what you consider to be an error, and I will happily show you where you have gone wrong.

ok, I will show. But I can guess the styles of answer already:
1. That is a metaphor 2. The jews/hebrews/israelites understood it in that way. 3. God was talking a phenomenological way. 4. In ancient hebrew, that word meant something diffrent than our current english word 5. e.t.c
"I'm not as soft or as generous a person as I would be if the world hadn't changed me" Bobby Fischer
MadCornishBiker
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9/16/2014 7:40:33 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/16/2014 7:25:45 AM, POPOO5560 wrote:
1 Corinthians 11:6
For if the woman be not covered, let her also be shorn: but if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be covered.

This is metaphor too u dont need to cover it must mean something else...

In fact it is not a metaphor, it was meant to be literal. However it refers to occasions when there is no baptised male available to take the lead in the Congregation activities.

It is not necessary to be covered at all times.
Artur
Posts: 725
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9/16/2014 7:41:43 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/16/2014 7:25:45 AM, POPOO5560 wrote:
1 Corinthians 11:6
For if the woman be not covered, let her also be shorn: but if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be covered.

This is metaphor too u dont need to cover it must mean something else...

considering you mentioned and highlighted headcover and considering Ahmeet deedat is written in your signature I concluded that you are muslim.

I am not bible defender but I am for truth: read the context please, in this context, it does not require women to be covered all the time as it is required in the Quran. (quran requires it and allows women to be not covered only when they are in front of her husband/parent/brother)

when you read 1 corintians 11 in context, you will see that it required women either to be covered or shaven only DURING A PRAY TIME, WHEN WOMAN PRAYS, SHE NEEDS TO BE COVERED.
"I'm not as soft or as generous a person as I would be if the world hadn't changed me" Bobby Fischer
MadCornishBiker
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9/16/2014 7:44:05 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/16/2014 7:21:48 AM, Artur wrote:
For ex: Jesus prohibited adultery. Jesus says it is ok to eat everything, thing that enters into mouth does not mess us, that that comes out of mouth makes us messy. So, this was a metaphor, what Jesus really meant was:

it is not ok to have sex outside of marriage but oral sex is ok without marriage .

So, here I am not taking the bible literally. If you say this understanding of mine is wrong, I ask you: according to what? According to what scale this needs not to be taken as a metaphor while error needs to be taken not literal?

No that is not a metaphor, as such, at all.

Though Jesus was not sang it was right to eat anything, what he was saying it is what we say that makes us unclean, and was referring specifically to the teachings of the Pharisees.

He certainly was not claiming any form of sexual activity outside of marriage is OK. I hope you are being sarcastic.
Artur
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9/16/2014 7:44:53 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
In fact it is not a metaphor, it was meant to be literal.

Now, time to ask: according to what we can determine whether a sentence in the bible to be taken literally or metaphorically?

You say that this(1 corinthians 11:16) is to be taken literally. And there are christians who say (for particular parts)not to be taken literally. We need an objective tool to determine it.

Question: how can we determine/specify whether a sentence to be taken literally or metaphorically?
"I'm not as soft or as generous a person as I would be if the world hadn't changed me" Bobby Fischer
Artur
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9/16/2014 7:47:28 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/16/2014 7:44:05 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 9/16/2014 7:21:48 AM, Artur wrote:
For ex: Jesus prohibited adultery. Jesus says it is ok to eat everything, thing that enters into mouth does not mess us, that that comes out of mouth makes us messy. So, this was a metaphor, what Jesus really meant was:

it is not ok to have sex outside of marriage but oral sex is ok without marriage .

So, here I am not taking the bible literally. If you say this understanding of mine is wrong, I ask you: according to what? According to what scale this needs not to be taken as a metaphor while error needs to be taken not literal?

No that is not a metaphor, as such, at all.

Though Jesus was not sang it was right to eat anything, what he was saying it is what we say that makes us unclean, and was referring specifically to the teachings of the Pharisees.

He certainly was not claiming any form of sexual activity outside of marriage is OK. I hope you are being sarcastic.

first of all, yes, I was being sarcastic.
You say that this is not a metaphor, but the question is not is it a metaphor or not. This was just a sarcastic example.

The question is: how can we know whether a sentence is to be taken literally or not? How can we measure it?
"I'm not as soft or as generous a person as I would be if the world hadn't changed me" Bobby Fischer
MadCornishBiker
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9/16/2014 7:47:38 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/16/2014 7:37:39 AM, Artur wrote:
At 9/16/2014 7:34:07 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 9/16/2014 7:17:46 AM, Artur wrote:
As known by everybody who read the bible but not as accepted by everybody who read the bible-bible is an encyclopedia of errors, absurdities, pornogrophy and e.t.c

bible is a book with 66/73/81 parts which is a collection of errors, absurdities, pornographic stories and some normal writings which make sense.

Now, when non-christians come with errors and etc of bible, the answer is ready: "that is a metaphor", "dont take that sentence literally, God indeed mean something else when he made that sentence"

so, we need to ask now: how can we determine which parts of the bible to be taken literally? For example: how can I know that the parts of the bible which command me to believe in Jesus/God is not a metaphor? If errors are a metaphor, so can be the parts which ask me to believe in Jesus/resurrection.

So, we dont need to take it literally, all parts which say we need to believe in Jesus are metaphors, they meant something else. When bible say: "believe in resurrection" that is a metaphor, we dont need to believe in.

If you are going to say vice versa, we need a scale to determine whether a sentence of the bible is metaphor or literal, what is that scale? Where is that?

Looking to the answers of chrisians, biblethumpers.

How can you know what is not true.

There are no errors in scripture, only in the understanding of it by people such as yourself.

Show me what you consider to be an error, and I will happily show you where you have gone wrong.

ok, I will show. But I can guess the styles of answer already:
1. That is a metaphor 2. The jews/hebrews/israelites understood it in that way. 3. God was talking a phenomenological way. 4. In ancient hebrew, that word meant something diffrent than our current english word 5. e.t.c

It does not matter how any human took it. It is what it is that matters. The Hebrew Scriptures are fact. The reporting aspects and the teaching aspects of the Christian Greek scriptures are mostly fact, but Jesus did, on occasion use hyperbole.

As I said, show me what you consider to be false and I will show you where you are wrong.
MadCornishBiker
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9/16/2014 7:54:41 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/16/2014 7:47:28 AM, Artur wrote:
At 9/16/2014 7:44:05 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 9/16/2014 7:21:48 AM, Artur wrote:
For ex: Jesus prohibited adultery. Jesus says it is ok to eat everything, thing that enters into mouth does not mess us, that that comes out of mouth makes us messy. So, this was a metaphor, what Jesus really meant was:

it is not ok to have sex outside of marriage but oral sex is ok without marriage .

So, here I am not taking the bible literally. If you say this understanding of mine is wrong, I ask you: according to what? According to what scale this needs not to be taken as a metaphor while error needs to be taken not literal?

No that is not a metaphor, as such, at all.

Though Jesus was not sang it was right to eat anything, what he was saying it is what we say that makes us unclean, and was referring specifically to the teachings of the Pharisees.

He certainly was not claiming any form of sexual activity outside of marriage is OK. I hope you are being sarcastic.

first of all, yes, I was being sarcastic.
You say that this is not a metaphor, but the question is not is it a metaphor or not. This was just a sarcastic example.

The question is: how can we know whether a sentence is to be taken literally or not? How can we measure it?

By comparing it to the context, and the scriptural point Jesus was making. In extreme cases by questioning in what way it is reasonable and logical to understand it.

For instance in the case you sited, the Pharisees were criticising the disciples for not following their habit of washing hands and forearms before eating. Jesus was highlighting the inaccuracy of their teachings and traditions by turning their accusation of uncleanness back on them, as he so often did when dealing with the Pharisees.

As another instance, his illustration that it would be more difficult for a rich man to enter the kingdom of the heavens than for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle.

Obviously there is no way a camel can pass through the eye of the kind of needle Jesus was referring to, a needle for sewing tent cloths, so it can only be hyperbole used to illustrate that the rich man has more to "lose" when becoming Christian than the poor one, and will therefore find it much harder, often having to turn his back on things or practices of which he was very fond..
Artur
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9/16/2014 7:58:40 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
I am busy now, catch you up later.
"I'm not as soft or as generous a person as I would be if the world hadn't changed me" Bobby Fischer
MadCornishBiker
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9/16/2014 8:01:29 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/16/2014 7:44:53 AM, Artur wrote:
In fact it is not a metaphor, it was meant to be literal.

Now, time to ask: according to what we can determine whether a sentence in the bible to be taken literally or metaphorically?

You say that this(1 corinthians 11:16) is to be taken literally. And there are christians who say (for particular parts)not to be taken literally. We need an objective tool to determine it.

Question: how can we determine/specify whether a sentence to be taken literally or metaphorically?

As I said elsewhere, by comparing it to Christian teachings for instance the idea of the head covering when a woman takes the lead in the Congregation, which she was only to do when there was no baptised male to do so, is based on the headship principle in Christianity which Paul explains at I Corinthians 11:3,4.

By humbly covering her head the woman is showing God and the Congregation that she is not usurping a man's role.

It is very easy, when considering scriptures in isolation, to misunderstand what is said, but there is always another scripture somewhere, often in the same passage, which explains what the one you are wondering about means.
matt.mcguire88
Posts: 1,137
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9/16/2014 8:27:09 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
If you have decent comprehension skills it's very simple, using "metaphors" or analogies and so forth are just styles of writing that expresses a truth in scripture. I've been reading scripture for quite some time so understanding usage of words for me is not confusing and I wonder why it appears that way to others. A literal statement is much different than using figures of speech it's a no-brainer.
First of all a metaphor is when an idea or concept is compared to another to achieve an understanding.
http://en.wikipedia.org...

In the case with the teachings of Jesus it was more than always confirmed where a parable or such was applied, the epistles are much more literal and direct in it's form not as much word play. Here is an example in scripture applying figurative substance..
Matthew 13
3 And he spake many things unto them in parables, saying, Behold, a sower went forth to sow;

4 And when he sowed, some seeds fell by the way side, and the fowls came and devoured them up:

5 Some fell upon stony places, where they had not much earth: and forthwith they sprung up, because they had no deepness of earth:

6 And when the sun was up, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away.

7 And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprung up, and choked them:

8 But other fell into good ground, and brought forth fruit, some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold.

9 Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

And another...
John 3
3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

And here is a literal form of speech in the same frame...
John 3
12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

A lot of times it toggles in and out of literal and figurative but like I said it should be apparent, there are no games or twisting of truth, it's simply the style in which was used to illustrate and they are straight forward.

Parables, metaphors, analogies, visions, imagery, prophecy, literal, figurative, poetry are ALL utilized in scripture, however if you understand these terms and have an elementary level of perception it should be as plain as day.

But to answer your question, yes, a metaphor can be understood, actually metaphors are used to make the understanding easier lol.
bulproof
Posts: 25,303
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9/16/2014 8:37:25 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/16/2014 7:40:33 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 9/16/2014 7:25:45 AM, POPOO5560 wrote:
1 Corinthians 11:6
For if the woman be not covered, let her also be shorn: but if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be covered.

This is metaphor too u dont need to cover it must mean something else...

In fact it is not a metaphor, it was meant to be literal. However it refers to occasions when there is no baptised male available to take the lead in the Congregation activities.

It is not necessary to be covered at all times.

And everybody can determine that for themselves from the passages that the mad will now present.

Thanks mad. Up to you.
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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9/16/2014 8:55:13 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/16/2014 8:37:25 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 9/16/2014 7:40:33 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 9/16/2014 7:25:45 AM, POPOO5560 wrote:
1 Corinthians 11:6
For if the woman be not covered, let her also be shorn: but if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be covered.

This is metaphor too u dont need to cover it must mean something else...

In fact it is not a metaphor, it was meant to be literal. However it refers to occasions when there is no baptised male available to take the lead in the Congregation activities.

It is not necessary to be covered at all times.

And everybody can determine that for themselves from the passages that the mad will now present.

Thanks mad. Up to you.

Well that is what I'm here for. There is very little of scripture I do not understand now, it is in my heart and my blood, just as God said it would be for his people.

Jeremiah 31:33 "For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days," declares Jehovah. "I will put my law within them, and in their heart I will write it. And I will become their God, and they will become my people."

Jeremiah 31:33
ASV(i) 33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith Jehovah: I will put my law in their inward parts, and in their heart will I write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people:

I may no longer be able to call myself a Jehovah's Witness, but it would appear Christ and his father still regard me as one of their people at heart. I guess that is why I am so confident that I will be back, and patient enough to wait God's time for it.
MadCornishBiker
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9/16/2014 8:56:58 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/16/2014 8:27:09 AM, matt.mcguire88 wrote:
If you have decent comprehension skills it's very simple, using "metaphors" or analogies and so forth are just styles of writing that expresses a truth in scripture. I've been reading scripture for quite some time so understanding usage of words for me is not confusing and I wonder why it appears that way to others. A literal statement is much different than using figures of speech it's a no-brainer.
First of all a metaphor is when an idea or concept is compared to another to achieve an understanding.
http://en.wikipedia.org...

In the case with the teachings of Jesus it was more than always confirmed where a parable or such was applied, the epistles are much more literal and direct in it's form not as much word play. Here is an example in scripture applying figurative substance..
Matthew 13
3 And he spake many things unto them in parables, saying, Behold, a sower went forth to sow;

4 And when he sowed, some seeds fell by the way side, and the fowls came and devoured them up:

5 Some fell upon stony places, where they had not much earth: and forthwith they sprung up, because they had no deepness of earth:

6 And when the sun was up, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away.

7 And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprung up, and choked them:

8 But other fell into good ground, and brought forth fruit, some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold.

9 Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.


And another...
John 3
3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.


And here is a literal form of speech in the same frame...
John 3
12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

A lot of times it toggles in and out of literal and figurative but like I said it should be apparent, there are no games or twisting of truth, it's simply the style in which was used to illustrate and they are straight forward.



Parables, metaphors, analogies, visions, imagery, prophecy, literal, figurative, poetry are ALL utilized in scripture, however if you understand these terms and have an elementary level of perception it should be as plain as day.

But to answer your question, yes, a metaphor can be understood, actually metaphors are used to make the understanding easier lol.

Yes that is why Jesus used them, and yes they did make it easier for the Jews to understand. However it does not always work as well in modern society.
bulproof
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9/16/2014 9:14:06 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/16/2014 8:56:58 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 9/16/2014 8:27:09 AM, matt.mcguire88 wrote:
If you have decent comprehension skills it's very simple, using "metaphors" or analogies and so forth are just styles of writing that expresses a truth in scripture. I've been reading scripture for quite some time so understanding usage of words for me is not confusing and I wonder why it appears that way to others. A literal statement is much different than using figures of speech it's a no-brainer.
First of all a metaphor is when an idea or concept is compared to another to achieve an understanding.
http://en.wikipedia.org...

In the case with the teachings of Jesus it was more than always confirmed where a parable or such was applied, the epistles are much more literal and direct in it's form not as much word play. Here is an example in scripture applying figurative substance..
Matthew 13
3 And he spake many things unto them in parables, saying, Behold, a sower went forth to sow;

4 And when he sowed, some seeds fell by the way side, and the fowls came and devoured them up:

5 Some fell upon stony places, where they had not much earth: and forthwith they sprung up, because they had no deepness of earth:

6 And when the sun was up, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away.

7 And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprung up, and choked them:

8 But other fell into good ground, and brought forth fruit, some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold.

9 Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.


And another...
John 3
3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.


And here is a literal form of speech in the same frame...
John 3
12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

A lot of times it toggles in and out of literal and figurative but like I said it should be apparent, there are no games or twisting of truth, it's simply the style in which was used to illustrate and they are straight forward.



Parables, metaphors, analogies, visions, imagery, prophecy, literal, figurative, poetry are ALL utilized in scripture, however if you understand these terms and have an elementary level of perception it should be as plain as day.

But to answer your question, yes, a metaphor can be understood, actually metaphors are used to make the understanding easier lol.

Yes that is why Jesus used them, and yes they did make it easier for the Jews to understand. However it does not always work as well in modern society.

Modern humans are far more sophisticated and knowledgeable than the inhabitants of Palestine 2500yrs ago and therefore need a madman to explain what those ignorant jews could understand by accepting fairy tales as truth .

How wonderful it must be to possess that level of hubris, I guess your god must have bestowed it on you.
popculturepooka
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9/16/2014 9:29:59 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/16/2014 7:17:46 AM, Artur wrote:


Looking to the answers of chrisians, biblethumpers.

Somehow, I sincerely doubt that.

tldr; L2 literary criticism.
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
MadCornishBiker
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9/16/2014 9:53:20 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/16/2014 9:14:06 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 9/16/2014 8:56:58 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 9/16/2014 8:27:09 AM, matt.mcguire88 wrote:
If you have decent comprehension skills it's very simple, using "metaphors" or analogies and so forth are just styles of writing that expresses a truth in scripture. I've been reading scripture for quite some time so understanding usage of words for me is not confusing and I wonder why it appears that way to others. A literal statement is much different than using figures of speech it's a no-brainer.
First of all a metaphor is when an idea or concept is compared to another to achieve an understanding.
http://en.wikipedia.org...

In the case with the teachings of Jesus it was more than always confirmed where a parable or such was applied, the epistles are much more literal and direct in it's form not as much word play. Here is an example in scripture applying figurative substance..
Matthew 13
3 And he spake many things unto them in parables, saying, Behold, a sower went forth to sow;

4 And when he sowed, some seeds fell by the way side, and the fowls came and devoured them up:

5 Some fell upon stony places, where they had not much earth: and forthwith they sprung up, because they had no deepness of earth:

6 And when the sun was up, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away.

7 And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprung up, and choked them:

8 But other fell into good ground, and brought forth fruit, some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold.

9 Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.


And another...
John 3
3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.


And here is a literal form of speech in the same frame...
John 3
12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

A lot of times it toggles in and out of literal and figurative but like I said it should be apparent, there are no games or twisting of truth, it's simply the style in which was used to illustrate and they are straight forward.



Parables, metaphors, analogies, visions, imagery, prophecy, literal, figurative, poetry are ALL utilized in scripture, however if you understand these terms and have an elementary level of perception it should be as plain as day.

But to answer your question, yes, a metaphor can be understood, actually metaphors are used to make the understanding easier lol.

Yes that is why Jesus used them, and yes they did make it easier for the Jews to understand. However it does not always work as well in modern society.

Modern humans are far more sophisticated and knowledgeable than the inhabitants of Palestine 2500yrs ago and therefore need a madman to explain what those ignorant jews could understand by accepting fairy tales as truth .

How wonderful it must be to possess that level of hubris, I guess your god must have bestowed it on you.

Sophisticated yes. More knowledgable, I am not so sure.

Yes there are some things we know more about than them, but there are also things which they knew which we have forgotten.

Also we have the influence of Satan and his demons to consider.

Before they were cast out of heaven their time was split between mocking God and the faithful angels, as scripture tells us. However when he was cast down to the vicinity of the earth, he and his compares have nothing to concentrate on but the human race, and a determination to see us destroy ourselves, since they are prevented from doing it directly themselves.

Is it any coincidence that our so called knowledge has advanced so far since then?

Is it a coincidence that our technological ability has advanced so far since then.

I think back to the Tower of Babel and think to myself, no it can't be. All the things which God prevented man from being able to learn then, we are learning now, to our detriment in the long term.

Even the medical advances have added to the overpopulation problem, and the food problem.

The increases of our ability to wage war, over much greater distances and to destroy more people and more land whilst doing so has added to the problem of food production.

Our incessant destruction of the rain forest has threatened life on earth, including ours.

The many mistakes we have made because, like you, we thing we are far cleverer than we really are, have also added to the problems.

No, it is no coincidence. We are busily destroying ourselves, with a great deal of encouragement from Satan, and are far less in control of our own minds than we believe, unless we have retreated under the protection of God.

No we are far from as smart as we want to think and that arrogance is going to lead to the destruction of the majority of us. There will be no-one else to blame because God has offered all the protection we need.

The people of Palestine back then may have known a lot less than we do, but what we know that they didn't is rapidly destroying us. It will continue to do so until God steps in.
12_13
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9/16/2014 1:39:03 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/16/2014 7:17:46 AM, Artur wrote:
so, we need to ask now: how can we determine which parts of the bible to be taken literally?

I think the Bible tells when it speaks metaphors.

If you don"t understand, maybe you should ask wisdom from God.

But if any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God, who gives to all liberally and without reproach; and it will be given to him.
James 1:5
MadCornishBiker
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9/16/2014 2:13:16 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/16/2014 1:39:03 PM, 12_13 wrote:
At 9/16/2014 7:17:46 AM, Artur wrote:
so, we need to ask now: how can we determine which parts of the bible to be taken literally?

I think the Bible tells when it speaks metaphors.

If you don"t understand, maybe you should ask wisdom from God.

But if any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God, who gives to all liberally and without reproach; and it will be given to him.
James 1:5

Don't forget verses 6-6 which qualify teh promise and set the conditions for it fulfilment.
Artur
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9/16/2014 6:17:55 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/16/2014 7:54:41 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 9/16/2014 7:47:28 AM, Artur wrote:
At 9/16/2014 7:44:05 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 9/16/2014 7:21:48 AM, Artur wrote:
For ex: Jesus prohibited adultery. Jesus says it is ok to eat everything, thing that enters into mouth does not mess us, that that comes out of mouth makes us messy. So, this was a metaphor, what Jesus really meant was:

it is not ok to have sex outside of marriage but oral sex is ok without marriage .

So, here I am not taking the bible literally. If you say this understanding of mine is wrong, I ask you: according to what? According to what scale this needs not to be taken as a metaphor while error needs to be taken not literal?

No that is not a metaphor, as such, at all.

Though Jesus was not sang it was right to eat anything, what he was saying it is what we say that makes us unclean, and was referring specifically to the teachings of the Pharisees.

He certainly was not claiming any form of sexual activity outside of marriage is OK. I hope you are being sarcastic.

first of all, yes, I was being sarcastic.
You say that this is not a metaphor, but the question is not is it a metaphor or not. This was just a sarcastic example.

The question is: how can we know whether a sentence is to be taken literally or not? How can we measure it?

By comparing it to the context, and the scriptural point Jesus was making.
It doesnot determine in any way and even in cases it determinoes, that are all subjective.
In extreme cases by questioning in what way it is reasonable and logical to understand it.
Subjective point. What if I say: it is in this way while you see it vice versa, it has no standard measurement.
For instance in the case you sited, the Pharisees were criticising the disciples for not following their habit of washing hands and forearms before eating. Jesus was highlighting the inaccuracy of their teachings and traditions by turning their accusation of uncleanness back on them, as he so often did when dealing with the Pharisees.
First of all, I was trolling christians, but if I want I can argue for that too, since I was being sarcastic I am not going to do this.
As another instance, his illustration that it would be more difficult for a rich man to enter the kingdom of the heavens than for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle.

Obviously there is no way a camel can pass through the eye of the kind of needle Jesus was referring to, a needle for sewing tent cloths, so it can only be hyperbole used to illustrate that the rich man has more to "lose" when becoming Christian than the poor one, and will therefore find it much harder, often having to turn his back on things or practices of which he was very fond..
Dont take it in that way, we cant know how needle Jesus was talking of, he might have been talking of a large imaginary needle.

This is what christians do, now you can say that I am being like a troll, same goes to you. You just play with semantics, now, in my later response I will give errors.
"I'm not as soft or as generous a person as I would be if the world hadn't changed me" Bobby Fischer
Artur
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9/16/2014 6:21:47 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/16/2014 8:01:29 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 9/16/2014 7:44:53 AM, Artur wrote:
In fact it is not a metaphor, it was meant to be literal.

Now, time to ask: according to what we can determine whether a sentence in the bible to be taken literally or metaphorically?

You say that this(1 corinthians 11:16) is to be taken literally. And there are christians who say (for particular parts)not to be taken literally. We need an objective tool to determine it.

Question: how can we determine/specify whether a sentence to be taken literally or metaphorically?

As I said elsewhere, by comparing it to Christian teachings
why? Why should I compare it to christian teachings? That is your or somebody else's opinion which is subjective, we need standart, objective way to measure it. No any need to take christian teachings seriously at all. What do we compare it to christian teachings for?
for instance the idea of the head covering when a woman takes the lead in the Congregation, which she was only to do when there was no baptised male to do so, is based on the headship principle in Christianity which Paul explains at I Corinthians 11:3,4.

By humbly covering her head the woman is showing God and the Congregation that she is not usurping a man's role.

It is very easy, when considering scriptures in isolation, to misunderstand what is said, but there is always another scripture somewhere, often in the same passage, which explains what the one you are wondering about means.
If there was always or sometimes a scripture which corrects or supports misunderstanding we would not have need christian teaching to compare.
"I'm not as soft or as generous a person as I would be if the world hadn't changed me" Bobby Fischer
Artur
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9/16/2014 6:24:09 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/16/2014 9:14:06 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 9/16/2014 8:56:58 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 9/16/2014 8:27:09 AM, matt.mcguire88 wrote:
If you have decent comprehension skills it's very simple, using "metaphors" or analogies and so forth are just styles of writing that expresses a truth in scripture. I've been reading scripture for quite some time so understanding usage of words for me is not confusing and I wonder why it appears that way to others. A literal statement is much different than using figures of speech it's a no-brainer.
First of all a metaphor is when an idea or concept is compared to another to achieve an understanding.
http://en.wikipedia.org...

In the case with the teachings of Jesus it was more than always confirmed where a parable or such was applied, the epistles are much more literal and direct in it's form not as much word play. Here is an example in scripture applying figurative substance..
Matthew 13
3 And he spake many things unto them in parables, saying, Behold, a sower went forth to sow;

4 And when he sowed, some seeds fell by the way side, and the fowls came and devoured them up:

5 Some fell upon stony places, where they had not much earth: and forthwith they sprung up, because they had no deepness of earth:

6 And when the sun was up, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away.

7 And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprung up, and choked them:

8 But other fell into good ground, and brought forth fruit, some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold.

9 Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.


And another...
John 3
3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.


And here is a literal form of speech in the same frame...
John 3
12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

A lot of times it toggles in and out of literal and figurative but like I said it should be apparent, there are no games or twisting of truth, it's simply the style in which was used to illustrate and they are straight forward.



Parables, metaphors, analogies, visions, imagery, prophecy, literal, figurative, poetry are ALL utilized in scripture, however if you understand these terms and have an elementary level of perception it should be as plain as day.

But to answer your question, yes, a metaphor can be understood, actually metaphors are used to make the understanding easier lol.

Yes that is why Jesus used them, and yes they did make it easier for the Jews to understand. However it does not always work as well in modern society.

Modern humans are far more sophisticated and knowledgeable than the inhabitants of Palestine 2500yrs ago and therefore need a madman to explain what those ignorant jews could understand by accepting fairy tales as truth .

How wonderful it must be to possess that level of hubris, I guess your god must have bestowed it on you.

ahahahahahahahahaha looooooooooooooool :D:D:D that was so good :)
"I'm not as soft or as generous a person as I would be if the world hadn't changed me" Bobby Fischer
Artur
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9/16/2014 6:26:16 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/16/2014 1:39:03 PM, 12_13 wrote:
At 9/16/2014 7:17:46 AM, Artur wrote:
so, we need to ask now: how can we determine which parts of the bible to be taken literally?

I think
you think or he thinks, that is all. Nothing more. For example:
the Bible tells when it speaks metaphors.
The bible always talks of pornography
If you don"t understand, maybe you should ask wisdom from God.
If you dont understand it, then you should ask wisdom from me
But if any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of Artur, who gives to all liberally and without reproach; and it will be given to him.
09/17/2014
"I'm not as soft or as generous a person as I would be if the world hadn't changed me" Bobby Fischer
matt.mcguire88
Posts: 1,137
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9/16/2014 6:30:56 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/16/2014 6:24:09 PM, Artur wrote:
At 9/16/2014 9:14:06 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 9/16/2014 8:56:58 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 9/16/2014 8:27:09 AM, matt.mcguire88 wrote:
If you have decent comprehension skills it's very simple, using "metaphors" or analogies and so forth are just styles of writing that expresses a truth in scripture. I've been reading scripture for quite some time so understanding usage of words for me is not confusing and I wonder why it appears that way to others. A literal statement is much different than using figures of speech it's a no-brainer.
First of all a metaphor is when an idea or concept is compared to another to achieve an understanding.
http://en.wikipedia.org...

In the case with the teachings of Jesus it was more than always confirmed where a parable or such was applied, the epistles are much more literal and direct in it's form not as much word play. Here is an example in scripture applying figurative substance..
Matthew 13
3 And he spake many things unto them in parables, saying, Behold, a sower went forth to sow;

4 And when he sowed, some seeds fell by the way side, and the fowls came and devoured them up:

5 Some fell upon stony places, where they had not much earth: and forthwith they sprung up, because they had no deepness of earth:

6 And when the sun was up, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away.

7 And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprung up, and choked them:

8 But other fell into good ground, and brought forth fruit, some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold.

9 Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.


And another...
John 3
3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.


And here is a literal form of speech in the same frame...
John 3
12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

A lot of times it toggles in and out of literal and figurative but like I said it should be apparent, there are no games or twisting of truth, it's simply the style in which was used to illustrate and they are straight forward.



Parables, metaphors, analogies, visions, imagery, prophecy, literal, figurative, poetry are ALL utilized in scripture, however if you understand these terms and have an elementary level of perception it should be as plain as day.

But to answer your question, yes, a metaphor can be understood, actually metaphors are used to make the understanding easier lol.

Yes that is why Jesus used them, and yes they did make it easier for the Jews to understand. However it does not always work as well in modern society.

Modern humans are far more sophisticated and knowledgeable than the inhabitants of Palestine 2500yrs ago and therefore need a madman to explain what those ignorant jews could understand by accepting fairy tales as truth .

How wonderful it must be to possess that level of hubris, I guess your god must have bestowed it on you.

ahahahahahahahahaha looooooooooooooool :D:D:D that was so good :)

How and why?
Artur
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9/16/2014 6:33:24 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
@madcornisher, for ex: Jeremaih says that the earth is on its pillars, most christians say this is a metaphor, becuase bible is not a scientific book.
First thing to be said: if these were metaphor, why Galileo was killed? Till science refuted bible, this was the facts approved by *the word of god*, church even killed a scientis just because bible says otherwise to what scientist discovered, but when it is an established fact, then all became a metaphor. Great evolution.

basic, simple error:

when a person read genesis 1, majority if not all of people conclude that earth is created before the sun. But what does the science tell about it? It says that the sun is older than the earth.
"I'm not as soft or as generous a person as I would be if the world hadn't changed me" Bobby Fischer