Total Posts:131|Showing Posts:1-30|Last Page
Jump to topic:

Christians, We Need to be Honest

ChristianPunk
Posts: 1,710
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/16/2014 11:49:47 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
I'm tired of people saying God's idea of justice is our idea of justice. It's like we blindly think God would be like us when he handles justice differently. So my question for Christians is this.

If you see a man being called "baldy" and the bald man asks you for justice, would you send two bears to maul the children? When you send soldiers out for war, would you order them to destroy the men, women and children (babies too) of the nations they were at war with? We need to admit God was not as perfect as you'd like to think.
RoderickSpode
Posts: 2,371
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/16/2014 12:44:29 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/16/2014 11:49:47 AM, ChristianPunk wrote:
I'm tired of people saying God's idea of justice is our idea of justice. It's like we blindly think God would be like us when he handles justice differently. So my question for Christians is this.

If you see a man being called "baldy" and the bald man asks you for justice, would you send two bears to maul the children? When you send soldiers out for war, would you order them to destroy the men, women and children (babies too) of the nations they were at war with? We need to admit God was not as perfect as you'd like to think.
God didn't send the bears to kill those young men because they called Elisha "baldy". God sent the bear because these young men who periodically taunted, harassed prophets and were challenging God's authority, prophetic words, anointing. We're not talking about little kids, we're talking about a mob of young men with less than desirable intent. The reference made to "go up" was most likely in mockery to Elijah's ascent from Earth.
12_13
Posts: 1,361
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/16/2014 1:25:50 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/16/2014 11:49:47 AM, ChristianPunk wrote:
I'm tired of people saying God's idea of justice is our idea of justice. It's like we blindly think God would be like us when he handles justice differently. So my question for Christians is this.

If you see a man being called "baldy" and the bald man asks you for justice, would you send two bears to maul the children? When you send soldiers out for war, would you order them to destroy the men, women and children (babies too) of the nations they were at war with? We need to admit God was not as perfect as you'd like to think.

God is perfect. His judgments are really not based on actions but to righteousness. If person is not righteous, he will not live forever. Actions are only mark of righteousness or unrighteousness (sinful). Righteous person does righteous, good, loving and truthful things and unrighteous sinful, bad, unloving, hateful, untruthful actions. Actions are only result of persons state of mind, therefore the state of mind is what counts.

In your "baldy" example it is also about righteousness. The action may seem small for you, but it may show that person is evil inside (unrighteous) and the unrighteousness is the real reason for judgment.

These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
Mat. 25:46
ChristianPunk
Posts: 1,710
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/16/2014 4:27:25 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/16/2014 12:44:29 PM, RoderickSpode wrote:
At 9/16/2014 11:49:47 AM, ChristianPunk wrote:
I'm tired of people saying God's idea of justice is our idea of justice. It's like we blindly think God would be like us when he handles justice differently. So my question for Christians is this.

If you see a man being called "baldy" and the bald man asks you for justice, would you send two bears to maul the children? When you send soldiers out for war, would you order them to destroy the men, women and children (babies too) of the nations they were at war with? We need to admit God was not as perfect as you'd like to think.
God didn't send the bears to kill those young men because they called Elisha "baldy". God sent the bear because these young men who periodically taunted, harassed prophets and were challenging God's authority, prophetic words, anointing. We're not talking about little kids, we're talking about a mob of young men with less than desirable intent. The reference made to "go up" was most likely in mockery to Elijah's ascent from Earth.

http://www.atheistrepublic.com...
Beastt
Posts: 5,135
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/16/2014 5:05:38 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/16/2014 11:49:47 AM, ChristianPunk wrote:
I'm tired of people saying God's idea of justice is our idea of justice. It's like we blindly think God would be like us when he handles justice differently. So my question for Christians is this.

If you see a man being called "baldy" and the bald man asks you for justice, would you send two bears to maul the children? When you send soldiers out for war, would you order them to destroy the men, women and children (babies too) of the nations they were at war with? We need to admit God was not as perfect as you'd like to think.

Kudos to you! I welcome your stance on this.

But in all honesty, if one were to limit Christians and atheists to the truth in debate, the debate would be silent on the Christian side. If a Christian can't lie, they have nothing to say in debate.
"If we believe absurdities we shall commit atrocities." -- Voltaire
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/16/2014 5:41:59 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/16/2014 11:49:47 AM, ChristianPunk wrote:
I'm tired of people saying God's idea of justice is our idea of justice. It's like we blindly think God would be like us when he handles justice differently. So my question for Christians is this.

If you see a man being called "baldy" and the bald man asks you for justice, would you send two bears to maul the children? When you send soldiers out for war, would you order them to destroy the men, women and children (babies too) of the nations they were at war with? We need to admit God was not as perfect as you'd like to think.

If Christians aren't honest in all things then they aren't Christians, it is all a part of the Christian Personality which scripture says marks Christ's true followers out from everyone else.

If I saw a bald man, myself included, being called Baldy I would know it was not meant in teh same spirit that was used in the instance you refer to.

What these young hoooligans said was "go up Baldy". They weren't just calling him bald but basically telling him to die. So whether God caused it or not, the she-bear definitely took an eye for an eye in that they got what they wished on "baldy".

God's idea of Justice is very much like for like, and not just to deeds but intentions also.

No God will not be like us when he, through his son, deals out justice. He will be much stricter in the standards he applies, but every death will be well and truly deserved, if only because many of those who are put to death will have shown insufficient respect for the life God gave then, since they didn't even bother making sure they were on the right path to retain it. They didn't care enough.

He won;t take any excuses like "but I didn't know" because his answer to that will be "well why didn't you listen when my people tried to show you". There will be no "I didn't have the time" because God's answer will be "you should have found time even if it meant not being able to do everything you wanted".

After the number of opportunities God is giving us to listen there will be no excuse.

God's justice is perfect. Man's is not.
Beastt
Posts: 5,135
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/16/2014 6:10:52 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/16/2014 5:41:59 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 9/16/2014 11:49:47 AM, ChristianPunk wrote:

God's justice is perfect. Man's is not.

So perfect justice includes stoning a man to death, because he cared enough for his family to collect firewood to warm them, even on the sabbath.

God's perfect justice allows a parent to kill their child, simply for cursing them.

God's perfect justice allows punishing the innocent, instead of the guilty.

Imagine 5-seconds of being caught in a burning room... feeling your skin blister and smelling the scent of your own flesh as it sizzles and burns. How are we to see you as anything but a psychopath, when you suggest that an eternity of that kind of suffering is a "just" reward for wearing underwear with mixed fibers?

Such ridiculous standards are little more than the epitome of injustice.
"If we believe absurdities we shall commit atrocities." -- Voltaire
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/16/2014 6:45:44 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/16/2014 6:10:52 PM, Beastt wrote:
At 9/16/2014 5:41:59 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 9/16/2014 11:49:47 AM, ChristianPunk wrote:

God's justice is perfect. Man's is not.

So perfect justice includes stoning a man to death, because he cared enough for his family to collect firewood to warm them, even on the sabbath.

God's perfect justice allows a parent to kill their child, simply for cursing them.

God's perfect justice allows punishing the innocent, instead of the guilty.

Imagine 5-seconds of being caught in a burning room... feeling your skin blister and smelling the scent of your own flesh as it sizzles and burns. How are we to see you as anything but a psychopath, when you suggest that an eternity of that kind of suffering is a "just" reward for wearing underwear with mixed fibers?

Such ridiculous standards are little more than the epitome of injustice.

No. There are a couple of reason for that being a fair punishment.

1) he was too lazy to collect enough wood the day before the Sabbath to see his family through two days. There is no excuse fr such laziness, it is not as if the Sabbath comes as a surprise.

2) As a member of God's special nation he should have trusted in God to make sure his family was safe and warm.

God has done so much for us, including risking the eternal life of his only begotten son and allowing him to come to earth as a human. trusting him to remain faithful even in weakness. We literally owe God even our existence, do you honestly think he will let us down as long as we remain faithful? He has certainly never let me down.
LogicalLunatic
Posts: 1,633
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/16/2014 6:56:32 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/16/2014 11:49:47 AM, ChristianPunk wrote:
I'm tired of people saying God's idea of justice is our idea of justice. It's like we blindly think God would be like us when he handles justice differently. So my question for Christians is this.

If you see a man being called "baldy" and the bald man asks you for justice, would you send two bears to maul the children? When you send soldiers out for war, would you order them to destroy the men, women and children (babies too) of the nations they were at war with? We need to admit God was not as perfect as you'd like to think.

God's ways are higher than our ways and God's thoughts are higher than our thoughts. What seems to be injustice to us, God understands things on a level far above our understanding. It was not unjust of him to wipe out the Canaanites or to "condone slavery and rape" (though He hasn't actually done this). God is just, 100% of the time. Even when He sends people to Hell for all eternity, He is just.

Look, let's say that you were condemned to work in the fields as a slave for your entire life. This is actually quite insignificant in light of eternity, so bad things happening on Earth do not mean that God is unjust.
Didn't Job, an extremely Godly man, suffer miserably? Well, God had a reason for allowing that.

I suspect by now that you might be a "concern troll", but if you're a sincere believer, I ask you how you can keep your faith intact while believing your God to be evil.
A True Work of Art: http://www.debate.org...

Atheist Logic: http://www.debate.org...

Bulproof formally admits to being a troll (Post 16):
http://www.debate.org...
Beastt
Posts: 5,135
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/16/2014 7:01:47 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/16/2014 6:45:44 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 9/16/2014 6:10:52 PM, Beastt wrote:
At 9/16/2014 5:41:59 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 9/16/2014 11:49:47 AM, ChristianPunk wrote:

God's justice is perfect. Man's is not.

So perfect justice includes stoning a man to death, because he cared enough for his family to collect firewood to warm them, even on the sabbath.

God's perfect justice allows a parent to kill their child, simply for cursing them.

God's perfect justice allows punishing the innocent, instead of the guilty.

Imagine 5-seconds of being caught in a burning room... feeling your skin blister and smelling the scent of your own flesh as it sizzles and burns. How are we to see you as anything but a psychopath, when you suggest that an eternity of that kind of suffering is a "just" reward for wearing underwear with mixed fibers?

Such ridiculous standards are little more than the epitome of injustice.

No. There are a couple of reason for that being a fair punishment.

1) he was too lazy to collect enough wood the day before the Sabbath to see his family through two days. There is no excuse fr such laziness, it is not as if the Sabbath comes as a surprise.
How do you know he wasn't busy gathering food the previous day?
And what makes stoning a fitting punishment for laziness? Christians tend to be horribly lazy when it comes to learning about reality. Should they be stoned? Stoning someone to death is NEVER justified. It's just barbaric revenge. And in the case of the Bible tale, there wasn't anything to vengeful over. If God want's people to sit on their butts and do nothing one day each week, isn't that promoting laziness?

2) As a member of God's special nation he should have trusted in God to make sure his family was safe and warm.
How can one trust in a being who can't be bothered to show you that he actually exists? It sounds like God is too lazy to provide even a modicum of evidence that he exists.

God has done so much for us, including risking the eternal life of his only begotten son and allowing him to come to earth as a human. trusting him to remain faithful even in weakness. We literally owe God even our existence, do you honestly think he will let us down as long as we remain faithful? He has certainly never let me down.
There isn't a single thing that anyone can show to have been the work of God. Your claim without evidence, is therefore, summarily dismissed without evidence.
"If we believe absurdities we shall commit atrocities." -- Voltaire
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/16/2014 7:33:47 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/16/2014 7:01:47 PM, Beastt wrote:
At 9/16/2014 6:45:44 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 9/16/2014 6:10:52 PM, Beastt wrote:
At 9/16/2014 5:41:59 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 9/16/2014 11:49:47 AM, ChristianPunk wrote:

God's justice is perfect. Man's is not.

So perfect justice includes stoning a man to death, because he cared enough for his family to collect firewood to warm them, even on the sabbath.

God's perfect justice allows a parent to kill their child, simply for cursing them.

God's perfect justice allows punishing the innocent, instead of the guilty.

Imagine 5-seconds of being caught in a burning room... feeling your skin blister and smelling the scent of your own flesh as it sizzles and burns. How are we to see you as anything but a psychopath, when you suggest that an eternity of that kind of suffering is a "just" reward for wearing underwear with mixed fibers?

Such ridiculous standards are little more than the epitome of injustice.

No. There are a couple of reason for that being a fair punishment.

1) he was too lazy to collect enough wood the day before the Sabbath to see his family through two days. There is no excuse fr such laziness, it is not as if the Sabbath comes as a surprise.
How do you know he wasn't busy gathering food the previous day?

He would, and should have been, but that still does not mean he shouldn't have gathered the wood he needed as well. Not having prepared for the Sabbath betrays a great level of carelessness about doing what is t=right.

And what makes stoning a fitting punishment for laziness?

because his laziness threatened to put his family at risk. That cannot be tolerated.

Christians tend to be horribly lazy when it comes to learning about reality. Should they be stoned?

True Christians are never too lazy to do thier duty. If they are they are not truly Christian. Making sure about what is true and real is all a part of a Christians duty.

Stoning someone to death is NEVER justified. It's just barbaric revenge. And in the case of the Bible tale, there wasn't anything to vengeful over. If God want's people to sit on their butts and do nothing one day each week, isn't that promoting laziness?

No, it si promoting respect for the fact that God had his day of rest.

There is nothing to say they should sit ion their backsides, just that they should not work. Pleasure and relaxation were OK.

If someone does something despite knowing what the punishment is, then they deserve that punishment whatever it may be.

I enjoy watching motorcycle racing, and occasionally a rider gets "punished" for a mistake by injury or death, but do they complain. No because they know the risks and accept the results of their actions. Your lazy wood gatherer knew the risk he was running and therefore had no right to complain if his actions brought the promised consequences.

I made a mistake, a serious one, on my bike a while ago and got injured. One thing that annoyed the surgeon no end was that I wasn't all "oh my ears and whiskers" about ti. I simply accepted my injuries as a natural consequence of my mistake. The principle is precisely the same for your lazy Israelite.

If you can't accept the punishment don;t commit the crime.


2) As a member of God's special nation he should have trusted in God to make sure his family was safe and warm.

How can one trust in a being who can't be bothered to show you that he actually exists? It sounds like God is too lazy to provide even a modicum of evidence that he exists.

God shows us that he exists every day of our lives, we just ignore the evidence. He has even arranged, through his son, for a world wide preaching work to warn everyone, everywhere, what is conning and to tell them how to be n the right side of it. However you can bet at the end that most of those who ignored God's messengers will say "but nobody told us" to which Christ will answer "They tried, why did';t you listen".

The bible also proves that God exists if you take the trouble to learn what it is saying properly.


God has done so much for us, including risking the eternal life of his only begotten son and allowing him to come to earth as a human. trusting him to remain faithful even in weakness. We literally owe God even our existence, do you honestly think he will let us down as long as we remain faithful? He has certainly never let me down.
There isn't a single thing that anyone can show to have been the work of God. Your claim without evidence, is therefore, summarily dismissed without evidence.

The whole of creation is evidence of God, and proves his existence because without him it would not be here. Science is increasingly showing that, though most try to sweep the evidence under the carpet. Still more and more scientists are accepting the 100% truth of the bible and becoming Jehovah's Witnesses.
annanicole
Posts: 19,782
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/16/2014 8:05:02 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/16/2014 7:33:47 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 9/16/2014 7:01:47 PM, Beastt wrote:
At 9/16/2014 6:45:44 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 9/16/2014 6:10:52 PM, Beastt wrote:
At 9/16/2014 5:41:59 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 9/16/2014 11:49:47 AM, ChristianPunk wrote:

God's justice is perfect. Man's is not.

So perfect justice includes stoning a man to death, because he cared enough for his family to collect firewood to warm them, even on the sabbath.

God's perfect justice allows a parent to kill their child, simply for cursing them.

God's perfect justice allows punishing the innocent, instead of the guilty.

Imagine 5-seconds of being caught in a burning room... feeling your skin blister and smelling the scent of your own flesh as it sizzles and burns. How are we to see you as anything but a psychopath, when you suggest that an eternity of that kind of suffering is a "just" reward for wearing underwear with mixed fibers?

Such ridiculous standards are little more than the epitome of injustice.

No. There are a couple of reason for that being a fair punishment.

1) he was too lazy to collect enough wood the day before the Sabbath to see his family through two days. There is no excuse fr such laziness, it is not as if the Sabbath comes as a surprise.
How do you know he wasn't busy gathering food the previous day?

He would, and should have been, but that still does not mean he shouldn't have gathered the wood he needed as well. Not having prepared for the Sabbath betrays a great level of carelessness about doing what is t=right.

And what makes stoning a fitting punishment for laziness?

because his laziness threatened to put his family at risk. That cannot be tolerated.

Christians tend to be horribly lazy when it comes to learning about reality. Should they be stoned?


True Christians are never too lazy to do thier duty. If they are they are not truly Christian. Making sure about what is true and real is all a part of a Christians duty.

Stoning someone to death is NEVER justified. It's just barbaric revenge. And in the case of the Bible tale, there wasn't anything to vengeful over. If God want's people to sit on their butts and do nothing one day each week, isn't that promoting laziness?

No, it si promoting respect for the fact that God had his day of rest.

There is nothing to say they should sit ion their backsides, just that they should not work. Pleasure and relaxation were OK.

If someone does something despite knowing what the punishment is, then they deserve that punishment whatever it may be.

I enjoy watching motorcycle racing, and occasionally a rider gets "punished" for a mistake by injury or death, but do they complain. No because they know the risks and accept the results of their actions. Your lazy wood gatherer knew the risk he was running and therefore had no right to complain if his actions brought the promised consequences.

I made a mistake, a serious one, on my bike a while ago and got injured. One thing that annoyed the surgeon no end was that I wasn't all "oh my ears and whiskers" about ti. I simply accepted my injuries as a natural consequence of my mistake. The principle is precisely the same for your lazy Israelite.

If you can't accept the punishment don;t commit the crime.



2) As a member of God's special nation he should have trusted in God to make sure his family was safe and warm.

How can one trust in a being who can't be bothered to show you that he actually exists? It sounds like God is too lazy to provide even a modicum of evidence that he exists.

God shows us that he exists every day of our lives, we just ignore the evidence. He has even arranged, through his son, for a world wide preaching work to warn everyone,

Yeah, and just look at the many lies that this particular "world-wide preaching" has told people over the last 125 years or so. Whole generations have lived and died believing the lies. What are the consequences of this?
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
Idealist
Posts: 2,520
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/16/2014 8:17:43 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/16/2014 11:49:47 AM, ChristianPunk wrote:
I'm tired of people saying God's idea of justice is our idea of justice. It's like we blindly think God would be like us when he handles justice differently. So my question for Christians is this.

If you see a man being called "baldy" and the bald man asks you for justice, would you send two bears to maul the children? When you send soldiers out for war, would you order them to destroy the men, women and children (babies too) of the nations they were at war with? We need to admit God was not as perfect as you'd like to think.

"Perfect" is a subjective word. Each of us have our own opinion on what makes a thing "perfect." With that said, you do have a point. We don't know how God thinks. We don't know the consequences of all the things we do in our lives. It's possible that once this life is through we forget all the pain we've suffered. I have always questioned the fact that once, when I went through a medical procedure, I was given a drug which erased my memory. It was a painful procedure, and supposedly I was in a lot of conscious pain, but in my own mind that pain never existed. How is that possible? I don't know.
Idealist
Posts: 2,520
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/16/2014 8:31:25 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/16/2014 5:05:38 PM, Beastt wrote:
At 9/16/2014 11:49:47 AM, ChristianPunk wrote:
I'm tired of people saying God's idea of justice is our idea of justice. It's like we blindly think God would be like us when he handles justice differently. So my question for Christians is this.

If you see a man being called "baldy" and the bald man asks you for justice, would you send two bears to maul the children? When you send soldiers out for war, would you order them to destroy the men, women and children (babies too) of the nations they were at war with? We need to admit God was not as perfect as you'd like to think.

Kudos to you! I welcome your stance on this.

But in all honesty, if one were to limit Christians and atheists to the truth in debate, the debate would be silent on the Christian side. If a Christian can't lie, they have nothing to say in debate.

Now that, I must say, is an obvious lie. Just because you or someone else doesn't believe that Christian doesn't mean he is lying. My Concise Oxford American Dictionary describes a lie as an intentional false statement. Using that definition I have seen both atheists and "believers" lie, but I've watched them say the truth, as well. Besides, don't you think that calling people liars is a little heavy-handed on a discussion forum? :P
Idealist
Posts: 2,520
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/16/2014 8:36:11 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/16/2014 7:01:47 PM, Beastt wrote:
At 9/16/2014 6:45:44 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 9/16/2014 6:10:52 PM, Beastt wrote:
At 9/16/2014 5:41:59 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 9/16/2014 11:49:47 AM, ChristianPunk wrote:

God's justice is perfect. Man's is not.

So perfect justice includes stoning a man to death, because he cared enough for his family to collect firewood to warm them, even on the sabbath.

God's perfect justice allows a parent to kill their child, simply for cursing them.

God's perfect justice allows punishing the innocent, instead of the guilty.

Imagine 5-seconds of being caught in a burning room... feeling your skin blister and smelling the scent of your own flesh as it sizzles and burns. How are we to see you as anything but a psychopath, when you suggest that an eternity of that kind of suffering is a "just" reward for wearing underwear with mixed fibers?

Such ridiculous standards are little more than the epitome of injustice.

No. There are a couple of reason for that being a fair punishment.

1) he was too lazy to collect enough wood the day before the Sabbath to see his family through two days. There is no excuse fr such laziness, it is not as if the Sabbath comes as a surprise.
How do you know he wasn't busy gathering food the previous day?
And what makes stoning a fitting punishment for laziness? Christians tend to be horribly lazy when it comes to learning about reality. Should they be stoned? Stoning someone to death is NEVER justified. It's just barbaric revenge. And in the case of the Bible tale, there wasn't anything to vengeful over. If God want's people to sit on their butts and do nothing one day each week, isn't that promoting laziness?

2) As a member of God's special nation he should have trusted in God to make sure his family was safe and warm.
How can one trust in a being who can't be bothered to show you that he actually exists? It sounds like God is too lazy to provide even a modicum of evidence that he exists.

If God does exist, he wouldn't be able to provide evidence of his own existence without destroying our freedom to reject it. I'm not taking sides here, but it seems like a pretty straight-forward dilemma.

God has done so much for us, including risking the eternal life of his only begotten son and allowing him to come to earth as a human. trusting him to remain faithful even in weakness. We literally owe God even our existence, do you honestly think he will let us down as long as we remain faithful? He has certainly never let me down.
There isn't a single thing that anyone can show to have been the work of God. Your claim without evidence, is therefore, summarily dismissed without evidence.
Beastt
Posts: 5,135
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/16/2014 9:28:07 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/16/2014 8:36:11 PM, Idealist wrote:
At 9/16/2014 7:01:47 PM, Beastt wrote:
At 9/16/2014 6:45:44 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 9/16/2014 6:10:52 PM, Beastt wrote:
At 9/16/2014 5:41:59 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 9/16/2014 11:49:47 AM, ChristianPunk wrote:

God's justice is perfect. Man's is not.

So perfect justice includes stoning a man to death, because he cared enough for his family to collect firewood to warm them, even on the sabbath.

God's perfect justice allows a parent to kill their child, simply for cursing them.

God's perfect justice allows punishing the innocent, instead of the guilty.

Imagine 5-seconds of being caught in a burning room... feeling your skin blister and smelling the scent of your own flesh as it sizzles and burns. How are we to see you as anything but a psychopath, when you suggest that an eternity of that kind of suffering is a "just" reward for wearing underwear with mixed fibers?

Such ridiculous standards are little more than the epitome of injustice.

No. There are a couple of reason for that being a fair punishment.

1) he was too lazy to collect enough wood the day before the Sabbath to see his family through two days. There is no excuse fr such laziness, it is not as if the Sabbath comes as a surprise.
How do you know he wasn't busy gathering food the previous day?
And what makes stoning a fitting punishment for laziness? Christians tend to be horribly lazy when it comes to learning about reality. Should they be stoned? Stoning someone to death is NEVER justified. It's just barbaric revenge. And in the case of the Bible tale, there wasn't anything to vengeful over. If God want's people to sit on their butts and do nothing one day each week, isn't that promoting laziness?

2) As a member of God's special nation he should have trusted in God to make sure his family was safe and warm.
How can one trust in a being who can't be bothered to show you that he actually exists? It sounds like God is too lazy to provide even a modicum of evidence that he exists.

If God does exist, he wouldn't be able to provide evidence of his own existence without destroying our freedom to reject it. I'm not taking sides here, but it seems like a pretty straight-forward dilemma.
Odd how that wasn't the case when God came down to Earth as Jesus and performed miracles and was resurrected to provide objective evidence that he was God.

God has done so much for us, including risking the eternal life of his only begotten son and allowing him to come to earth as a human. trusting him to remain faithful even in weakness. We literally owe God even our existence, do you honestly think he will let us down as long as we remain faithful? He has certainly never let me down.
There isn't a single thing that anyone can show to have been the work of God. Your claim without evidence, is therefore, summarily dismissed without evidence.
"If we believe absurdities we shall commit atrocities." -- Voltaire
ChristianPunk
Posts: 1,710
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/16/2014 10:15:25 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/16/2014 6:56:32 PM, LogicalLunatic wrote:
At 9/16/2014 11:49:47 AM, ChristianPunk wrote:
I'm tired of people saying God's idea of justice is our idea of justice. It's like we blindly think God would be like us when he handles justice differently. So my question for Christians is this.

If you see a man being called "baldy" and the bald man asks you for justice, would you send two bears to maul the children? When you send soldiers out for war, would you order them to destroy the men, women and children (babies too) of the nations they were at war with? We need to admit God was not as perfect as you'd like to think.

God's ways are higher than our ways and God's thoughts are higher than our thoughts. What seems to be injustice to us, God understands things on a level far above our understanding. It was not unjust of him to wipe out the Canaanites or to "condone slavery and rape" (though He hasn't actually done this). God is just, 100% of the time. Even when He sends people to Hell for all eternity, He is just.

Look, let's say that you were condemned to work in the fields as a slave for your entire life. This is actually quite insignificant in light of eternity, so bad things happening on Earth do not mean that God is unjust.
Didn't Job, an extremely Godly man, suffer miserably? Well, God had a reason for allowing that.

I suspect by now that you might be a "concern troll", but if you're a sincere believer, I ask you how you can keep your faith intact while believing your God to be evil.

I don't believe my God to be evil, but I question what was going on back then. Because if you agree with wiping out a nation of a group of people or allowing the rapist to marry the rape victim after the victim got raped, then that's different then what we have been raised by. If I legitimately believed this, I would tell my son that if he ever raped a woman, he would have to pay the equivalent of 50 shekels to the victim's father and is to marry the rape victim and the rape victim has no choice. Plus, women were sold into slavery by their fathers and were treated like cattle. I don't see the morality in this. Which is why I see that every law except the ten commandments to be flawed codes. God knew, in my belief, that people would probably not only die off from the law, but abuse it. So that's where the New Testament comes where we are no longer bound by the old laws.

Question. Since you believe it's ok for the people to slaughter another group of people, then are my actions justified if I went to a group of Hindus and slaughtered them because they didn't believe in the same God? For the bible in the OT, says that if anybody tries to convert people to their religion, we should kill them if it's not the Christian religion. Am I morally obligated to kill those Hindus?
ChristianPunk
Posts: 1,710
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/16/2014 10:16:56 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/16/2014 8:17:43 PM, Idealist wrote:
At 9/16/2014 11:49:47 AM, ChristianPunk wrote:
I'm tired of people saying God's idea of justice is our idea of justice. It's like we blindly think God would be like us when he handles justice differently. So my question for Christians is this.

If you see a man being called "baldy" and the bald man asks you for justice, would you send two bears to maul the children? When you send soldiers out for war, would you order them to destroy the men, women and children (babies too) of the nations they were at war with? We need to admit God was not as perfect as you'd like to think.

"Perfect" is a subjective word. Each of us have our own opinion on what makes a thing "perfect." With that said, you do have a point. We don't know how God thinks. We don't know the consequences of all the things we do in our lives. It's possible that once this life is through we forget all the pain we've suffered. I have always questioned the fact that once, when I went through a medical procedure, I was given a drug which erased my memory. It was a painful procedure, and supposedly I was in a lot of conscious pain, but in my own mind that pain never existed. How is that possible? I don't know.

You might be onto something there. If our minds were cleared, that would end the pain and suffering in Heaven.
ChristianPunk
Posts: 1,710
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/16/2014 10:18:53 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/16/2014 5:41:59 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 9/16/2014 11:49:47 AM, ChristianPunk wrote:
I'm tired of people saying God's idea of justice is our idea of justice. It's like we blindly think God would be like us when he handles justice differently. So my question for Christians is this.

If you see a man being called "baldy" and the bald man asks you for justice, would you send two bears to maul the children? When you send soldiers out for war, would you order them to destroy the men, women and children (babies too) of the nations they were at war with? We need to admit God was not as perfect as you'd like to think.

If Christians aren't honest in all things then they aren't Christians, it is all a part of the Christian Personality which scripture says marks Christ's true followers out from everyone else.

If I saw a bald man, myself included, being called Baldy I would know it was not meant in teh same spirit that was used in the instance you refer to.

What these young hoooligans said was "go up Baldy". They weren't just calling him bald but basically telling him to die. So whether God caused it or not, the she-bear definitely took an eye for an eye in that they got what they wished on "baldy".

God's idea of Justice is very much like for like, and not just to deeds but intentions also.

No God will not be like us when he, through his son, deals out justice. He will be much stricter in the standards he applies, but every death will be well and truly deserved, if only because many of those who are put to death will have shown insufficient respect for the life God gave then, since they didn't even bother making sure they were on the right path to retain it. They didn't care enough.

He won;t take any excuses like "but I didn't know" because his answer to that will be "well why didn't you listen when my people tried to show you". There will be no "I didn't have the time" because God's answer will be "you should have found time even if it meant not being able to do everything you wanted".

After the number of opportunities God is giving us to listen there will be no excuse.

God's justice is perfect. Man's is not.

So it wouldn't make a difference if Elijah murdered them since God sent nature to do it? So should I wish an ill fate upon my neighbor? I thought it was love thy enemies and turn the other cheek? Elijah followed non of these.
ThinkFirst
Posts: 1,391
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/16/2014 10:30:14 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/16/2014 12:44:29 PM, RoderickSpode wrote:
At 9/16/2014 11:49:47 AM, ChristianPunk wrote:
I'm tired of people saying God's idea of justice is our idea of justice. It's like we blindly think God would be like us when he handles justice differently. So my question for Christians is this.

If you see a man being called "baldy" and the bald man asks you for justice, would you send two bears to maul the children? When you send soldiers out for war, would you order them to destroy the men, women and children (babies too) of the nations they were at war with? We need to admit God was not as perfect as you'd like to think.
God didn't send the bears to kill those young men because they called Elisha "baldy". God sent the bear because these young men who periodically taunted, harassed prophets and were challenging God's authority, prophetic words, anointing. We're not talking about little kids, we're talking about a mob of young men with less than desirable intent. The reference made to "go up" was most likely in mockery to Elijah's ascent from Earth.

That was cute little justification of a barbaric act of "nuking an anthill..." It's just, because the deity said so. Challenging authority of something that the old men claim, without evidence, deserves being mauled to death by a bear... It's sick, it's wrong, and it's the construct of humans. No deity necessary. No deity involved.
"Never attribute to villainy that which can be adequately explained by stupidity"
-----
"Men rarely if ever dream up a god superior to themselves. Most gods have the manners and morals of a spoiled child. "

-- Robert A Heinlein
ThinkFirst
Posts: 1,391
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/16/2014 10:36:09 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/16/2014 5:41:59 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 9/16/2014 11:49:47 AM, ChristianPunk wrote:
I'm tired of people saying God's idea of justice is our idea of justice. It's like we blindly think God would be like us when he handles justice differently. So my question for Christians is this.

If you see a man being called "baldy" and the bald man asks you for justice, would you send two bears to maul the children? When you send soldiers out for war, would you order them to destroy the men, women and children (babies too) of the nations they were at war with? We need to admit God was not as perfect as you'd like to think.

If Christians aren't honest in all things then they aren't Christians, it is all a part of the Christian Personality which scripture says marks Christ's true followers out from everyone else.

If I saw a bald man, myself included, being called Baldy I would know it was not meant in teh same spirit that was used in the instance you refer to.

What these young hoooligans said was "go up Baldy". They weren't just calling him bald but basically telling him to die. So whether God caused it or not, the she-bear definitely took an eye for an eye in that they got what they wished on "baldy".

God's idea of Justice is very much like for like, and not just to deeds but intentions also.

No God will not be like us when he, through his son, deals out justice. He will be much stricter in the standards he applies, but every death will be well and truly deserved, if only because many of those who are put to death will have shown insufficient respect for the life God gave then, since they didn't even bother making sure they were on the right path to retain it. They didn't care enough.

He won;t take any excuses like "but I didn't know" because his answer to that will be "well why didn't you listen when my people tried to show you". There will be no "I didn't have the time" because God's answer will be "you should have found time even if it meant not being able to do everything you wanted".

After the number of opportunities God is giving us to listen there will be no excuse.

God's justice is perfect. Man's is not.

No deity that overreacts to this degree can be called "perfect." This deity, of human construct, is nothing short of an human monstrosity. Your bible is poison.
"Never attribute to villainy that which can be adequately explained by stupidity"
-----
"Men rarely if ever dream up a god superior to themselves. Most gods have the manners and morals of a spoiled child. "

-- Robert A Heinlein
bulproof
Posts: 25,187
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/16/2014 11:50:25 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/16/2014 12:44:29 PM, RoderickSpode wrote:
At 9/16/2014 11:49:47 AM, ChristianPunk wrote:
I'm tired of people saying God's idea of justice is our idea of justice. It's like we blindly think God would be like us when he handles justice differently. So my question for Christians is this.

If you see a man being called "baldy" and the bald man asks you for justice, would you send two bears to maul the children? When you send soldiers out for war, would you order them to destroy the men, women and children (babies too) of the nations they were at war with? We need to admit God was not as perfect as you'd like to think.
God didn't send the bears to kill those young men because they called Elisha "baldy". God sent the bear because these young men who periodically taunted, harassed prophets and were challenging God's authority, prophetic words, anointing. We're not talking about little kids, we're talking about a mob of young men with less than desirable intent. The reference made to "go up" was most likely in mockery to Elijah's ascent from Earth.

Provide the passages that support your claims here.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
bulproof
Posts: 25,187
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/16/2014 11:54:23 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/16/2014 5:41:59 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
What these young hoooligans said was "go up Baldy". They weren't just calling him bald but basically telling him to die. So whether God caused it or not, the she-bear definitely took an eye for an eye in that they got what they wished on "baldy".

Provide the passages that support these claims.

Nice to see you doubt that god had anything to do with it though.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
bulproof
Posts: 25,187
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/17/2014 12:00:03 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/16/2014 6:45:44 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
1) he was too lazy to collect enough wood the day before the Sabbath to see his family through two days. There is no excuse fr such laziness, it is not as if the Sabbath comes as a surprise.

No the bible actually says that god had sent an evil spirit that made the man too ill to even move for three days, that's why he needed to work on the sabbath.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
Beastt
Posts: 5,135
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/17/2014 12:13:01 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/17/2014 12:00:03 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 9/16/2014 6:45:44 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
1) he was too lazy to collect enough wood the day before the Sabbath to see his family through two days. There is no excuse fr such laziness, it is not as if the Sabbath comes as a surprise.

No the bible actually says that god had sent an evil spirit that made the man too ill to even move for three days, that's why he needed to work on the sabbath.

Can you provide the verses for that?
"If we believe absurdities we shall commit atrocities." -- Voltaire
bulproof
Posts: 25,187
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/17/2014 12:19:06 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/17/2014 12:13:01 AM, Beastt wrote:
At 9/17/2014 12:00:03 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 9/16/2014 6:45:44 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
1) he was too lazy to collect enough wood the day before the Sabbath to see his family through two days. There is no excuse fr such laziness, it is not as if the Sabbath comes as a surprise.

No the bible actually says that god had sent an evil spirit that made the man too ill to even move for three days, that's why he needed to work on the sabbath.

Can you provide the verses for that?
ROFL
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/17/2014 7:56:03 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/17/2014 12:00:03 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 9/16/2014 6:45:44 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
1) he was too lazy to collect enough wood the day before the Sabbath to see his family through two days. There is no excuse fr such laziness, it is not as if the Sabbath comes as a surprise.

No the bible actually says that god had sent an evil spirit that made the man too ill to even move for three days, that's why he needed to work on the sabbath.

Yes it does, but does that not, as is usually the case, mean that God simply removed his protection and thus allowed the evil spirit to enter him?

Same principle as always God takes the credit as we ll as the blame for what he allows.

However, again, it shows a lack of preparation, and one also has to ask why that evil spirit was allowed to enter the man. What had he done.

However you look at it, the man chose to do what he did knowing the consequences. 24 hours without wood would not have killed anyone.

Actions have consequences, and as long as the consequence is know in advance, as it was in this case, then the person who performed the action that brought it only has themselves to blame.

Saying that is wrong is like saying that you should be able to step off a cliff and not fall.

The man knew what he was doing was wrong and what the consequences were if he got caught. End of argument. God is not to blame.
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/17/2014 8:05:25 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/16/2014 11:54:23 PM, bulproof wrote:
At 9/16/2014 5:41:59 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
What these young hoooligans said was "go up Baldy". They weren't just calling him bald but basically telling him to die. So whether God caused it or not, the she-bear definitely took an eye for an eye in that they got what they wished on "baldy".

Provide the passages that support these claims.

Nice to see you doubt that god had anything to do with it though.

The passage that proves that is the passage where it is stated, so you already have that.

You need to understand the idioms of the time to understand what the import of the children's taunt was.

But of course you only like to understand things your way, as usual, not how they were actually meant at the time. You would run out of opportunities to taunt if you even tried to understand things properly wouldn't you.

Oh God has something to do with everything, even if only in that he allows it at that moment, and he is the first to admit that, so I cannot deny it.

God could, and will, prevent everything like that happening ever again, but it will mean people like you losing out when he does.

God protects those who rely on him to do so. Why should he protect those who can't be bothered to seek his protection, or to cooperate with their fellow man, as a whole? He has already warned us what the consequences will be, and has repeated that warning over millennia.

If we ignore the warnings, or simply refuse to learn about them, we have no-one to blame but ourselves.
FLMinistries
Posts: 133
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/17/2014 8:15:52 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/16/2014 11:49:47 AM, ChristianPunk wrote:
I'm tired of people saying God's idea of justice is our idea of justice. It's like we blindly think God would be like us when he handles justice differently. So my question for Christians is this.

If you see a man being called "baldy" and the bald man asks you for justice, would you send two bears to maul the children? When you send soldiers out for war, would you order them to destroy the men, women and children (babies too) of the nations they were at war with? We need to admit God was not as perfect as you'd like to think.

You said:
"I'm tired of people saying God's idea of justice is our idea of justice. It's like we blindly think God would be like us when he handles justice differently."
Then you said:
"We need to admit God was not as perfect as you'd like to think."
If that is not the pot calling the kettle black I do not know what is. You have done the very thing you condemned others of doing.

God said:
Isaiah 55:9 "For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts."

He also said:
Deuteronomy 32:4 "He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he."

Matthew 5:48 "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect."

You have just revealed your true self. You do not believe God, His Word, and His counsel. You believe as you condemned others, "your ways". You have placed yourself over God and you have sit yourself in judgement over God, when He is the only judge.

Isaiah 14:13-15 "For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit."
bulproof
Posts: 25,187
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/17/2014 9:12:23 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/17/2014 8:05:25 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 9/16/2014 11:54:23 PM, bulproof wrote:
At 9/16/2014 5:41:59 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
What these young hoooligans said was "go up Baldy". They weren't just calling him bald but basically telling him to die. So whether God caused it or not, the she-bear definitely took an eye for an eye in that they got what they wished on "baldy".

Provide the passages that support these claims.

Nice to see you doubt that god had anything to do with it though.

The passage that proves that is the passage where it is stated, so you already have that.
Provide the passage that supports your claim.
Don't just do your normal Del Shannon.

Support your fuking claim.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin