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What would you do?

Double_R
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9/21/2014 12:48:40 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Person A is a decent human being. He has done some bad things in his life, he has done good things as well. He would never do anything horrible, like rape or kill someone, and is appalled when hearing about others who have. You don't know Person A all that well, so you are not quite sure what his beliefs are.

Think of someone you know who fits this description in your mind. Continue when you have done so...

You learn that Person A is an atheist, who has even managed to convince others to give up their faith due to a perceived lack of evidence. You then learn that Person A has died in an accident.

God appears before you and presents you with the following: The decision as to what happens to Person A will be entirely up to you (heaven, hell, annihilation, etc...). It will not affect anyone else's standing in God eyes, and for taking responsibility for this decision you and your immediate family will all go to heaven forever.

What is your verdict?
ChristianPunk
Posts: 1,710
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9/21/2014 1:10:55 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/21/2014 12:48:40 PM, Double_R wrote:
Person A is a decent human being. He has done some bad things in his life, he has done good things as well. He would never do anything horrible, like rape or kill someone, and is appalled when hearing about others who have. You don't know Person A all that well, so you are not quite sure what his beliefs are.

Think of someone you know who fits this description in your mind. Continue when you have done so...

You learn that Person A is an atheist, who has even managed to convince others to give up their faith due to a perceived lack of evidence. You then learn that Person A has died in an accident.

God appears before you and presents you with the following: The decision as to what happens to Person A will be entirely up to you (heaven, hell, annihilation, etc...). It will not affect anyone else's standing in God eyes, and for taking responsibility for this decision you and your immediate family will all go to heaven forever.

What is your verdict?

Heaven.
LogicalLunatic
Posts: 1,633
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9/21/2014 1:30:03 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/21/2014 12:48:40 PM, Double_R wrote:
Person A is a decent human being. He has done some bad things in his life, he has done good things as well. He would never do anything horrible, like rape or kill someone, and is appalled when hearing about others who have. You don't know Person A all that well, so you are not quite sure what his beliefs are.

Think of someone you know who fits this description in your mind. Continue when you have done so...

You learn that Person A is an atheist, who has even managed to convince others to give up their faith due to a perceived lack of evidence. You then learn that Person A has died in an accident.

God appears before you and presents you with the following: The decision as to what happens to Person A will be entirely up to you (heaven, hell, annihilation, etc...). It will not affect anyone else's standing in God eyes, and for taking responsibility for this decision you and your immediate family will all go to heaven forever.

What is your verdict?

Hell.
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Double_R
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9/21/2014 1:54:22 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/21/2014 1:10:55 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
At 9/21/2014 12:48:40 PM, Double_R wrote:
Person A is a decent human being. He has done some bad things in his life, he has done good things as well. He would never do anything horrible, like rape or kill someone, and is appalled when hearing about others who have. You don't know Person A all that well, so you are not quite sure what his beliefs are.

Think of someone you know who fits this description in your mind. Continue when you have done so...

You learn that Person A is an atheist, who has even managed to convince others to give up their faith due to a perceived lack of evidence. You then learn that Person A has died in an accident.

God appears before you and presents you with the following: The decision as to what happens to Person A will be entirely up to you (heaven, hell, annihilation, etc...). It will not affect anyone else's standing in God eyes, and for taking responsibility for this decision you and your immediate family will all go to heaven forever.

What is your verdict?

Heaven.

So do you disagree with God?
Double_R
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9/21/2014 1:55:05 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/21/2014 1:30:03 PM, LogicalLunatic wrote:
At 9/21/2014 12:48:40 PM, Double_R wrote:
Person A is a decent human being. He has done some bad things in his life, he has done good things as well. He would never do anything horrible, like rape or kill someone, and is appalled when hearing about others who have. You don't know Person A all that well, so you are not quite sure what his beliefs are.

Think of someone you know who fits this description in your mind. Continue when you have done so...

You learn that Person A is an atheist, who has even managed to convince others to give up their faith due to a perceived lack of evidence. You then learn that Person A has died in an accident.

God appears before you and presents you with the following: The decision as to what happens to Person A will be entirely up to you (heaven, hell, annihilation, etc...). It will not affect anyone else's standing in God eyes, and for taking responsibility for this decision you and your immediate family will all go to heaven forever.

What is your verdict?

Hell.

How do you justify your decision?
Arasa
Posts: 380
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9/21/2014 1:58:38 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/21/2014 12:48:40 PM, Double_R wrote:
Person A is a decent human being. He has done some bad things in his life, he has done good things as well. He would never do anything horrible, like rape or kill someone, and is appalled when hearing about others who have. You don't know Person A all that well, so you are not quite sure what his beliefs are.

Think of someone you know who fits this description in your mind. Continue when you have done so...

You learn that Person A is an atheist, who has even managed to convince others to give up their faith due to a perceived lack of evidence. You then learn that Person A has died in an accident.

God appears before you and presents you with the following: The decision as to what happens to Person A will be entirely up to you (heaven, hell, annihilation, etc...). It will not affect anyone else's standing in God eyes, and for taking responsibility for this decision you and your immediate family will all go to heaven forever.

What is your verdict?

As a fellow sinner, equal in wickedness to the atheist, I would say heaven. However, God is not equal in sin. Compared to Him, all of us are wicked and undeserving of Heaven. This is why He is the judge, not a sinner. Who among us has the right to condemn anyone to Hell? No one! But, God does, and so, unfortunately, my atheist friend would go to Hell.

I don't like the verdict, and I know that if I were given the power, I would send him to Heaven, but that is not the way it works.

August Rasa, a 4:53 mind
DPMartin
Posts: 1,096
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9/21/2014 2:00:05 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
One should ask for God"s Mercy for that person according to His Judgement because He is Righteous, therefore knows what is righteous.
Double_R
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9/21/2014 2:02:20 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/21/2014 1:58:38 PM, Arasa wrote:
At 9/21/2014 12:48:40 PM, Double_R wrote:
What is your verdict?

As a fellow sinner, equal in wickedness to the atheist, I would say heaven. However, God is not equal in sin. Compared to Him, all of us are wicked and undeserving of Heaven. This is why He is the judge, not a sinner. Who among us has the right to condemn anyone to Hell? No one! But, God does, and so, unfortunately, my atheist friend would go to Hell.

I don't like the verdict, and I know that if I were given the power, I would send him to Heaven, but that is not the way it works.

August Rasa, a 4:53 mind

So the decision is morally wrong if you make it, but morally right if God makes it. Is that correct?
Double_R
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9/21/2014 2:03:13 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/21/2014 2:00:05 PM, DPMartin wrote:
One should ask for God"s Mercy for that person according to His Judgement because He is Righteous, therefore knows what is righteous.

You don't need to ask for anything. God left the decision entirely up to you.
Envisage
Posts: 3,646
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9/21/2014 2:03:47 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/21/2014 12:48:40 PM, Double_R wrote:
Person A is a decent human being. He has done some bad things in his life, he has done good things as well. He would never do anything horrible, like rape or kill someone, and is appalled when hearing about others who have. You don't know Person A all that well, so you are not quite sure what his beliefs are.

Think of someone you know who fits this description in your mind. Continue when you have done so...

You learn that Person A is an atheist, who has even managed to convince others to give up their faith due to a perceived lack of evidence. You then learn that Person A has died in an accident.

God appears before you and presents you with the following: The decision as to what happens to Person A will be entirely up to you (heaven, hell, annihilation, etc...). It will not affect anyone else's standing in God eyes, and for taking responsibility for this decision you and your immediate family will all go to heaven forever.

What is your verdict?

Burn.
Arasa
Posts: 380
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9/21/2014 2:05:26 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/21/2014 2:02:20 PM, Double_R wrote:
At 9/21/2014 1:58:38 PM, Arasa wrote:
At 9/21/2014 12:48:40 PM, Double_R wrote:
What is your verdict?

As a fellow sinner, equal in wickedness to the atheist, I would say heaven. However, God is not equal in sin. Compared to Him, all of us are wicked and undeserving of Heaven. This is why He is the judge, not a sinner. Who among us has the right to condemn anyone to Hell? No one! But, God does, and so, unfortunately, my atheist friend would go to Hell.

I don't like the verdict, and I know that if I were given the power, I would send him to Heaven, but that is not the way it works.

August Rasa, a 4:53 mind

So the decision is morally wrong if you make it, but morally right if God makes it. Is that correct?

I would say that it is morally wrong for me to condemn someone to Hell, due to my position as being equally filled with sin. It would be vastly hypocritical as well.

It is not morally wrong or hypocritical for God to condemn someone to Hell, because he has not committed sin.
LogicalLunatic
Posts: 1,633
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9/21/2014 2:11:15 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/21/2014 1:55:05 PM, Double_R wrote:
At 9/21/2014 1:30:03 PM, LogicalLunatic wrote:
At 9/21/2014 12:48:40 PM, Double_R wrote:
Person A is a decent human being. He has done some bad things in his life, he has done good things as well. He would never do anything horrible, like rape or kill someone, and is appalled when hearing about others who have. You don't know Person A all that well, so you are not quite sure what his beliefs are.

Think of someone you know who fits this description in your mind. Continue when you have done so...

You learn that Person A is an atheist, who has even managed to convince others to give up their faith due to a perceived lack of evidence. You then learn that Person A has died in an accident.

God appears before you and presents you with the following: The decision as to what happens to Person A will be entirely up to you (heaven, hell, annihilation, etc...). It will not affect anyone else's standing in God eyes, and for taking responsibility for this decision you and your immediate family will all go to heaven forever.

What is your verdict?

Hell.

How do you justify your decision?

In Christian theology, all human beings deserve Hell. This includes myself and the person whose fate I determine. Presumably in this scenario it's the God of the Bible who exists.
Anyway, allowing this person whose sin has not been forgiven to go to Heaven would be an injustice.
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ChristianPunk
Posts: 1,710
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9/21/2014 2:20:25 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/21/2014 1:54:22 PM, Double_R wrote:
At 9/21/2014 1:10:55 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
At 9/21/2014 12:48:40 PM, Double_R wrote:
Person A is a decent human being. He has done some bad things in his life, he has done good things as well. He would never do anything horrible, like rape or kill someone, and is appalled when hearing about others who have. You don't know Person A all that well, so you are not quite sure what his beliefs are.

Think of someone you know who fits this description in your mind. Continue when you have done so...

You learn that Person A is an atheist, who has even managed to convince others to give up their faith due to a perceived lack of evidence. You then learn that Person A has died in an accident.

God appears before you and presents you with the following: The decision as to what happens to Person A will be entirely up to you (heaven, hell, annihilation, etc...). It will not affect anyone else's standing in God eyes, and for taking responsibility for this decision you and your immediate family will all go to heaven forever.

What is your verdict?

Heaven.

So do you disagree with God?

No.
Double_R
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9/21/2014 2:49:27 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/21/2014 2:05:26 PM, Arasa wrote:
At 9/21/2014 2:02:20 PM, Double_R wrote:
At 9/21/2014 1:58:38 PM, Arasa wrote:
At 9/21/2014 12:48:40 PM, Double_R wrote:
What is your verdict?

As a fellow sinner, equal in wickedness to the atheist, I would say heaven. However, God is not equal in sin. Compared to Him, all of us are wicked and undeserving of Heaven. This is why He is the judge, not a sinner. Who among us has the right to condemn anyone to Hell? No one! But, God does, and so, unfortunately, my atheist friend would go to Hell.

I don't like the verdict, and I know that if I were given the power, I would send him to Heaven, but that is not the way it works.

August Rasa, a 4:53 mind

So the decision is morally wrong if you make it, but morally right if God makes it. Is that correct?

I would say that it is morally wrong for me to condemn someone to Hell, due to my position as being equally filled with sin. It would be vastly hypocritical as well.

It is not morally wrong or hypocritical for God to condemn someone to Hell, because he has not committed sin.

So that's a yes. So you're argument is that what makes a decision right or wrong is not based on the merits of the decision itself, but rather who is making it. Ok.
Double_R
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9/21/2014 2:53:14 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/21/2014 2:11:15 PM, LogicalLunatic wrote:
At 9/21/2014 1:55:05 PM, Double_R wrote:
At 9/21/2014 1:30:03 PM, LogicalLunatic wrote:
Hell.

How do you justify your decision?

In Christian theology, all human beings deserve Hell. This includes myself and the person whose fate I determine. Presumably in this scenario it's the God of the Bible who exists.
Anyway, allowing this person whose sin has not been forgiven to go to Heaven would be an injustice.

Christian theology is irrelevant. The decision is yours and yours alone, therefore whether the person's "sin" has been forgiven is left entirely up to you as well. And you chose hell. Do you want to change your mind, or would you care to explain why you still go with hell?
Double_R
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9/21/2014 2:54:11 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/21/2014 2:20:25 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
At 9/21/2014 1:54:22 PM, Double_R wrote:
At 9/21/2014 1:10:55 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
At 9/21/2014 12:48:40 PM, Double_R wrote:
What is your verdict?

Heaven.

So do you disagree with God?

No.

Then God would have chose heaven as well?
ChristianPunk
Posts: 1,710
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9/21/2014 3:10:59 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/21/2014 2:54:11 PM, Double_R wrote:
At 9/21/2014 2:20:25 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
At 9/21/2014 1:54:22 PM, Double_R wrote:
At 9/21/2014 1:10:55 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
At 9/21/2014 12:48:40 PM, Double_R wrote:
What is your verdict?

Heaven.

So do you disagree with God?

No.

Then God would have chose heaven as well?

As far as what I've read, yes. I can't say I have certainty. Just like a Christian can't have certainty over the fate of themselves and others. I remember the forgiveness sermon by Jesus where he said to be like God "merciful and loving and forgiving." And Jesus told us to do this to our enemies.
Beastt
Posts: 5,135
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9/21/2014 3:27:40 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/21/2014 1:58:38 PM, Arasa wrote:
At 9/21/2014 12:48:40 PM, Double_R wrote:
Person A is a decent human being. He has done some bad things in his life, he has done good things as well. He would never do anything horrible, like rape or kill someone, and is appalled when hearing about others who have. You don't know Person A all that well, so you are not quite sure what his beliefs are.

Think of someone you know who fits this description in your mind. Continue when you have done so...

You learn that Person A is an atheist, who has even managed to convince others to give up their faith due to a perceived lack of evidence. You then learn that Person A has died in an accident.

God appears before you and presents you with the following: The decision as to what happens to Person A will be entirely up to you (heaven, hell, annihilation, etc...). It will not affect anyone else's standing in God eyes, and for taking responsibility for this decision you and your immediate family will all go to heaven forever.

What is your verdict?

As a fellow sinner, equal in wickedness to the atheist, I would say heaven. However, God is not equal in sin. Compared to Him, all of us are wicked and undeserving of Heaven. This is why He is the judge, not a sinner. Who among us has the right to condemn anyone to Hell? No one! But, God does, and so, unfortunately, my atheist friend would go to Hell.

I don't like the verdict, and I know that if I were given the power, I would send him to Heaven, but that is not the way it works.

August Rasa, a 4:53 mind
Do you believe people (souls) sin in Heaven? if not, what stops them? And if all sinners become instant non-sinners in Heaven, do they still have free-will? Perhaps more importantly, if a sinner becomes a non-sinner once they're in Heaven, why not send everyone to Heaven?
And if people continue to sin while in Heaven, then why are you talking about God not being equal in sin? If sinners stop sinning the moment they go to Heaven, then doesn't that make them equal to God as far as sin goes?

It seems that Christianity presents such an astounding array of contradictions, that the only way to believe it is to avoid thinking about it.
"If we believe absurdities we shall commit atrocities." -- Voltaire
Beastt
Posts: 5,135
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9/21/2014 3:31:01 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/21/2014 3:10:59 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
At 9/21/2014 2:54:11 PM, Double_R wrote:
At 9/21/2014 2:20:25 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
At 9/21/2014 1:54:22 PM, Double_R wrote:
At 9/21/2014 1:10:55 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
At 9/21/2014 12:48:40 PM, Double_R wrote:
What is your verdict?

Heaven.

So do you disagree with God?

No.

Then God would have chose heaven as well?

As far as what I've read, yes. I can't say I have certainty. Just like a Christian can't have certainty over the fate of themselves and others. I remember the forgiveness sermon by Jesus where he said to be like God "merciful and loving and forgiving." And Jesus told us to do this to our enemies.
If not for the sacrifice of Jesus, where would we all go?
"If we believe absurdities we shall commit atrocities." -- Voltaire
LogicalLunatic
Posts: 1,633
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9/21/2014 3:33:10 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/21/2014 2:53:14 PM, Double_R wrote:
At 9/21/2014 2:11:15 PM, LogicalLunatic wrote:
At 9/21/2014 1:55:05 PM, Double_R wrote:
At 9/21/2014 1:30:03 PM, LogicalLunatic wrote:
Hell.

How do you justify your decision?

In Christian theology, all human beings deserve Hell. This includes myself and the person whose fate I determine. Presumably in this scenario it's the God of the Bible who exists.
Anyway, allowing this person whose sin has not been forgiven to go to Heaven would be an injustice.

Christian theology is irrelevant. The decision is yours and yours alone, therefore whether the person's "sin" has been forgiven is left entirely up to you as well. And you chose hell. Do you want to change your mind, or would you care to explain why you still go with hell?

Heaven.
If a person's sin is irrelevant, then God is not just, and nothing matters. They might as well avoid suffering.
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Beastt
Posts: 5,135
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9/21/2014 3:41:33 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/21/2014 3:33:10 PM, LogicalLunatic wrote:
At 9/21/2014 2:53:14 PM, Double_R wrote:
At 9/21/2014 2:11:15 PM, LogicalLunatic wrote:
At 9/21/2014 1:55:05 PM, Double_R wrote:
At 9/21/2014 1:30:03 PM, LogicalLunatic wrote:
Hell.

How do you justify your decision?

In Christian theology, all human beings deserve Hell. This includes myself and the person whose fate I determine. Presumably in this scenario it's the God of the Bible who exists.
Anyway, allowing this person whose sin has not been forgiven to go to Heaven would be an injustice.

Christian theology is irrelevant. The decision is yours and yours alone, therefore whether the person's "sin" has been forgiven is left entirely up to you as well. And you chose hell. Do you want to change your mind, or would you care to explain why you still go with hell?

Heaven.
If a person's sin is irrelevant, then God is not just, and nothing matters. They might as well avoid suffering.

So suffering somehow rights the wrongs? It's certainly not about correcting behaviors since the punishment is eternal.
"If we believe absurdities we shall commit atrocities." -- Voltaire
YamaVonKarma
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9/21/2014 3:44:20 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/21/2014 12:48:40 PM, Double_R wrote:
Person A is a decent human being. He has done some bad things in his life, he has done good things as well. He would never do anything horrible, like rape or kill someone, and is appalled when hearing about others who have. You don't know Person A all that well, so you are not quite sure what his beliefs are.

Think of someone you know who fits this description in your mind. Continue when you have done so...

You learn that Person A is an atheist, who has even managed to convince others to give up their faith due to a perceived lack of evidence. You then learn that Person A has died in an accident.

God appears before you and presents you with the following: The decision as to what happens to Person A will be entirely up to you (heaven, hell, annihilation, etc...). It will not affect anyone else's standing in God eyes, and for taking responsibility for this decision you and your immediate family will all go to heaven forever.

What is your verdict?

Heaven. Only a fool or fascist would punish an innocent man.
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LogicalLunatic
Posts: 1,633
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9/21/2014 3:45:23 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/21/2014 3:41:33 PM, Beastt wrote:
At 9/21/2014 3:33:10 PM, LogicalLunatic wrote:
At 9/21/2014 2:53:14 PM, Double_R wrote:
At 9/21/2014 2:11:15 PM, LogicalLunatic wrote:
At 9/21/2014 1:55:05 PM, Double_R wrote:
At 9/21/2014 1:30:03 PM, LogicalLunatic wrote:
Hell.

How do you justify your decision?

In Christian theology, all human beings deserve Hell. This includes myself and the person whose fate I determine. Presumably in this scenario it's the God of the Bible who exists.
Anyway, allowing this person whose sin has not been forgiven to go to Heaven would be an injustice.

Christian theology is irrelevant. The decision is yours and yours alone, therefore whether the person's "sin" has been forgiven is left entirely up to you as well. And you chose hell. Do you want to change your mind, or would you care to explain why you still go with hell?

Heaven.
If a person's sin is irrelevant, then God is not just, and nothing matters. They might as well avoid suffering.

So suffering somehow rights the wrongs? It's certainly not about correcting behaviors since the punishment is eternal.

Does restitution right wrongs? Because humans cannot "pay God back" for their crimes against Him. Punishment is, as the name suggests, punishment. It's not behavioral correction.
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Double_R
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9/21/2014 3:47:17 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/21/2014 3:33:10 PM, LogicalLunatic wrote:
At 9/21/2014 2:53:14 PM, Double_R wrote:
At 9/21/2014 2:11:15 PM, LogicalLunatic wrote:
At 9/21/2014 1:55:05 PM, Double_R wrote:
At 9/21/2014 1:30:03 PM, LogicalLunatic wrote:
Hell.

How do you justify your decision?

In Christian theology, all human beings deserve Hell. This includes myself and the person whose fate I determine. Presumably in this scenario it's the God of the Bible who exists.
Anyway, allowing this person whose sin has not been forgiven to go to Heaven would be an injustice.

Christian theology is irrelevant. The decision is yours and yours alone, therefore whether the person's "sin" has been forgiven is left entirely up to you as well. And you chose hell. Do you want to change your mind, or would you care to explain why you still go with hell?

Heaven.
If a person's sin is irrelevant, then God is not just, and nothing matters. They might as well avoid suffering.

When I said that Christian theology is irrelevant I was speaking in the context of the situation. By God granting you what he did, the decision you are left to make is completely isolated from God rules or anyone else's fate. So this is not an "if sin is irrelevant" question. What is or is not relevant to the decision is completely up to you.

So is heaven your final answer?
Beastt
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9/21/2014 3:53:03 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/21/2014 3:45:23 PM, LogicalLunatic wrote:
At 9/21/2014 3:41:33 PM, Beastt wrote:
At 9/21/2014 3:33:10 PM, LogicalLunatic wrote:
At 9/21/2014 2:53:14 PM, Double_R wrote:
At 9/21/2014 2:11:15 PM, LogicalLunatic wrote:
At 9/21/2014 1:55:05 PM, Double_R wrote:
At 9/21/2014 1:30:03 PM, LogicalLunatic wrote:
Hell.

How do you justify your decision?

In Christian theology, all human beings deserve Hell. This includes myself and the person whose fate I determine. Presumably in this scenario it's the God of the Bible who exists.
Anyway, allowing this person whose sin has not been forgiven to go to Heaven would be an injustice.

Christian theology is irrelevant. The decision is yours and yours alone, therefore whether the person's "sin" has been forgiven is left entirely up to you as well. And you chose hell. Do you want to change your mind, or would you care to explain why you still go with hell?

Heaven.
If a person's sin is irrelevant, then God is not just, and nothing matters. They might as well avoid suffering.

So suffering somehow rights the wrongs? It's certainly not about correcting behaviors since the punishment is eternal.

Does restitution right wrongs? Because humans cannot "pay God back" for their crimes against Him. Punishment is, as the name suggests, punishment. It's not behavioral correction.

Yes, the whole point of restitution is to try to assure that the guilty party pays for the damage they caused. But as you say, one cannot "pay God back". At the same time, God is not the victim. But the idea of punishment is behavioral correction. That's why we don't sentence people to life for petty crimes. But God does. What purpose does this serve?
"If we believe absurdities we shall commit atrocities." -- Voltaire
LogicalLunatic
Posts: 1,633
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9/21/2014 3:53:25 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/21/2014 3:47:17 PM, Double_R wrote:
At 9/21/2014 3:33:10 PM, LogicalLunatic wrote:
At 9/21/2014 2:53:14 PM, Double_R wrote:
At 9/21/2014 2:11:15 PM, LogicalLunatic wrote:
At 9/21/2014 1:55:05 PM, Double_R wrote:
At 9/21/2014 1:30:03 PM, LogicalLunatic wrote:
Hell.

How do you justify your decision?

In Christian theology, all human beings deserve Hell. This includes myself and the person whose fate I determine. Presumably in this scenario it's the God of the Bible who exists.
Anyway, allowing this person whose sin has not been forgiven to go to Heaven would be an injustice.

Christian theology is irrelevant. The decision is yours and yours alone, therefore whether the person's "sin" has been forgiven is left entirely up to you as well. And you chose hell. Do you want to change your mind, or would you care to explain why you still go with hell?

Heaven.
If a person's sin is irrelevant, then God is not just, and nothing matters. They might as well avoid suffering.

When I said that Christian theology is irrelevant I was speaking in the context of the situation. By God granting you what he did, the decision you are left to make is completely isolated from God rules or anyone else's fate. So this is not an "if sin is irrelevant" question. What is or is not relevant to the decision is completely up to you.

So is heaven your final answer?

Well, all questions of inherent sinfulness cast aside, I wouldn't want to send anyone to Hell.
Heaven would be my final answer in this case.
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Beastt
Posts: 5,135
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9/21/2014 4:21:06 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/21/2014 3:53:25 PM, LogicalLunatic wrote:
At 9/21/2014 3:47:17 PM, Double_R wrote:
At 9/21/2014 3:33:10 PM, LogicalLunatic wrote:
At 9/21/2014 2:53:14 PM, Double_R wrote:
At 9/21/2014 2:11:15 PM, LogicalLunatic wrote:
At 9/21/2014 1:55:05 PM, Double_R wrote:
At 9/21/2014 1:30:03 PM, LogicalLunatic wrote:
Hell.

How do you justify your decision?

In Christian theology, all human beings deserve Hell. This includes myself and the person whose fate I determine. Presumably in this scenario it's the God of the Bible who exists.
Anyway, allowing this person whose sin has not been forgiven to go to Heaven would be an injustice.

Christian theology is irrelevant. The decision is yours and yours alone, therefore whether the person's "sin" has been forgiven is left entirely up to you as well. And you chose hell. Do you want to change your mind, or would you care to explain why you still go with hell?

Heaven.
If a person's sin is irrelevant, then God is not just, and nothing matters. They might as well avoid suffering.

When I said that Christian theology is irrelevant I was speaking in the context of the situation. By God granting you what he did, the decision you are left to make is completely isolated from God rules or anyone else's fate. So this is not an "if sin is irrelevant" question. What is or is not relevant to the decision is completely up to you.

So is heaven your final answer?

Well, all questions of inherent sinfulness cast aside, I wouldn't want to send anyone to Hell.
Heaven would be my final answer in this case.

So you disagree with eternal torment for this person? Is that correct? I hope that's what you're saying because I would certainly disagree with eternal torment for such a person.
"If we believe absurdities we shall commit atrocities." -- Voltaire
Such
Posts: 1,110
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9/21/2014 4:27:30 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/21/2014 1:54:22 PM, Double_R wrote:
At 9/21/2014 1:10:55 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
At 9/21/2014 12:48:40 PM, Double_R wrote:
Person A is a decent human being. He has done some bad things in his life, he has done good things as well. He would never do anything horrible, like rape or kill someone, and is appalled when hearing about others who have. You don't know Person A all that well, so you are not quite sure what his beliefs are.

Think of someone you know who fits this description in your mind. Continue when you have done so...

You learn that Person A is an atheist, who has even managed to convince others to give up their faith due to a perceived lack of evidence. You then learn that Person A has died in an accident.

God appears before you and presents you with the following: The decision as to what happens to Person A will be entirely up to you (heaven, hell, annihilation, etc...). It will not affect anyone else's standing in God eyes, and for taking responsibility for this decision you and your immediate family will all go to heaven forever.

What is your verdict?

Heaven.

So do you disagree with God?

So, I take it you asked God this question and he was like, "that dude goes to Hell fer sher. Of course, I always get to make these decisions, but I see your point. In any case, it doesn't make sense, because if someone disagreed with me, I'd send his asss right to Hell, no questions."

Amirite?
Such
Posts: 1,110
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9/21/2014 4:30:21 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/21/2014 4:21:06 PM, Beastt wrote:
At 9/21/2014 3:53:25 PM, LogicalLunatic wrote:
At 9/21/2014 3:47:17 PM, Double_R wrote:
At 9/21/2014 3:33:10 PM, LogicalLunatic wrote:
At 9/21/2014 2:53:14 PM, Double_R wrote:
At 9/21/2014 2:11:15 PM, LogicalLunatic wrote:
At 9/21/2014 1:55:05 PM, Double_R wrote:
At 9/21/2014 1:30:03 PM, LogicalLunatic wrote:
Hell.

How do you justify your decision?

In Christian theology, all human beings deserve Hell. This includes myself and the person whose fate I determine. Presumably in this scenario it's the God of the Bible who exists.
Anyway, allowing this person whose sin has not been forgiven to go to Heaven would be an injustice.

Christian theology is irrelevant. The decision is yours and yours alone, therefore whether the person's "sin" has been forgiven is left entirely up to you as well. And you chose hell. Do you want to change your mind, or would you care to explain why you still go with hell?

Heaven.
If a person's sin is irrelevant, then God is not just, and nothing matters. They might as well avoid suffering.

When I said that Christian theology is irrelevant I was speaking in the context of the situation. By God granting you what he did, the decision you are left to make is completely isolated from God rules or anyone else's fate. So this is not an "if sin is irrelevant" question. What is or is not relevant to the decision is completely up to you.

So is heaven your final answer?

Well, all questions of inherent sinfulness cast aside, I wouldn't want to send anyone to Hell.
Heaven would be my final answer in this case.

So you disagree with eternal torment for this person? Is that correct? I hope that's what you're saying because I would certainly disagree with eternal torment for such a person.

So, here's the thing. Do you accept that there are varying interpretations of Hell, but that the Bible depicts Hell as terminal (in that it will be destroyed following the Apocalypse), as thus, not eternal?
ChristianPunk
Posts: 1,710
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9/21/2014 4:40:17 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/21/2014 3:31:01 PM, Beastt wrote:
At 9/21/2014 3:10:59 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
At 9/21/2014 2:54:11 PM, Double_R wrote:
At 9/21/2014 2:20:25 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
At 9/21/2014 1:54:22 PM, Double_R wrote:
At 9/21/2014 1:10:55 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
At 9/21/2014 12:48:40 PM, Double_R wrote:
What is your verdict?

Heaven.

So do you disagree with God?

No.

Then God would have chose heaven as well?

As far as what I've read, yes. I can't say I have certainty. Just like a Christian can't have certainty over the fate of themselves and others. I remember the forgiveness sermon by Jesus where he said to be like God "merciful and loving and forgiving." And Jesus told us to do this to our enemies.
If not for the sacrifice of Jesus, where would we all go?

Not sure. Probably hell or darkness.