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Becoming an atheist ...

neutral
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9/21/2014 1:57:06 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
So, I have had a couple of atheists tell me that I could NO WAY ever have been an atheist ... like there is a requirements other than not believing in God to be an atheist?

I mean, lets face it, the biggest, dumbest, hillbilly redneck can become an atheist by just saying, "I dern't think da is a Gawd!" Boom ... atheist. No more qualifications necessary.

That does not mean that there are no atheists of high achievement, but being an atheist is not one of the things that 'makes' them a high achiever. Its just a conclusion.

Lets contrast that with being an Priest.

http://www.wikihow.com...

Eight years ... a RIGOROUS process that many people cannot meet. A rigorous education and grooming process. MANY steps required to join the priesthood, with MANY opportunities to quit. The decision to become a priest is arduous. Rigorous. Demanding. And it is the achievement of a very challenging process. Those who hold the title of priest have been through a VERY difficult process.

That contrasts rather sharply with the deacon to be an atheist and the rigor required to hold the 'position'.

Again, it strikes me as simply absurd that many atheist believe there is any rigor whatsoever required to be an atheist. There are certainly very good and bad atheists, but being atheist? In an of itself ... there is no atheist priesthood ... you are all atheists.

A man who calls himself 'Christian' yet does nothing to follow the scripture is ... well, the Bible speaks of this. But atheism? Dumb, mean, stupid, smart, heroic ... there is no delineation made merely by 'being' atheist.

You can be an atheist because the color blue offends you ... and that means there is no God! Still and atheist.

You can be an atheist because spit is wet! Still and atheist.

There isn't necessarily ANYTHING 'intellectual' about the decision to be an atheist. Nothing whatsoever (though there can be).

I wonder why so many atheists assume that there is some huge intellectual hurdle to 'being atheist's anyway?

To then turn around and deride theologians? Silliness.
Such
Posts: 1,110
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9/21/2014 2:07:55 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/21/2014 1:57:06 PM, neutral wrote:
So, I have had a couple of atheists tell me that I could NO WAY ever have been an atheist ... like there is a requirements other than not believing in God to be an atheist?

I mean, lets face it, the biggest, dumbest, hillbilly redneck can become an atheist by just saying, "I dern't think da is a Gawd!" Boom ... atheist. No more qualifications necessary.

That does not mean that there are no atheists of high achievement, but being an atheist is not one of the things that 'makes' them a high achiever. Its just a conclusion.

Lets contrast that with being an Priest.

http://www.wikihow.com...

Eight years ... a RIGOROUS process that many people cannot meet. A rigorous education and grooming process. MANY steps required to join the priesthood, with MANY opportunities to quit. The decision to become a priest is arduous. Rigorous. Demanding. And it is the achievement of a very challenging process. Those who hold the title of priest have been through a VERY difficult process.

That contrasts rather sharply with the deacon to be an atheist and the rigor required to hold the 'position'.

Again, it strikes me as simply absurd that many atheist believe there is any rigor whatsoever required to be an atheist. There are certainly very good and bad atheists, but being atheist? In an of itself ... there is no atheist priesthood ... you are all atheists.

A man who calls himself 'Christian' yet does nothing to follow the scripture is ... well, the Bible speaks of this. But atheism? Dumb, mean, stupid, smart, heroic ... there is no delineation made merely by 'being' atheist.

You can be an atheist because the color blue offends you ... and that means there is no God! Still and atheist.

You can be an atheist because spit is wet! Still and atheist.

There isn't necessarily ANYTHING 'intellectual' about the decision to be an atheist. Nothing whatsoever (though there can be).

I wonder why so many atheists assume that there is some huge intellectual hurdle to 'being atheist's anyway?

To then turn around and deride theologians? Silliness.

Huh. From that vantage, I'd say that your perspective is completely legitimate. Being religious is a very personal engagement, and it's something that isn't scientific in any way. With that in mind, I would say that your point is almost infallible from my view, and I would find it fantastically difficult to contradict.
Fly
Posts: 2,046
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9/21/2014 3:59:07 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Yes, no argument there. One can be an atheist in the purest sense in that they don't think about spiritual matters or theistic religions at all. They simply lack theism without feeling the need to make a bulletproof case of it.
"You don't have a right to be a jerk."
--Religion Forum's hypocrite extraordinaire serving up lulz
Beastt
Posts: 5,135
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9/21/2014 4:39:32 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/21/2014 1:57:06 PM, neutral wrote:
So, I have had a couple of atheists tell me that I could NO WAY ever have been an atheist ... like there is a requirements other than not believing in God to be an atheist?
I understand why they say that, but I disagree. Some people are atheists simply because they haven't been indoctrinated into any religion. The ones who are suggesting you're not intelligent enough, are informed atheists. They actually studied the claims of theology, did a reasonable degree of research, and realized that theism is untenable. Obviously, when you didn't believe, you hadn't really done any research. It was just the default position for you, (which defeats the Bible's claim of inherent knowledge of God).

I mean, lets face it, the biggest, dumbest, hillbilly redneck can become an atheist by just saying, "I dern't think da is a Gawd!" Boom ... atheist. No more qualifications necessary.
It takes a little more than just saying it. It's about what one believes, not just what they may say. Evidence shows that a significant number of people who identify themselves as theists, don't actually believe the religion they claim, and are actually atheists.

That does not mean that there are no atheists of high achievement, but being an atheist is not one of the things that 'makes' them a high achiever. Its just a conclusion.
It's more the other way around; being of greater intellect - and more importantly - not being afraid of independent thought, tends to lead toward atheism. A high percentage of theists tend to have more of a "herd mentality". They do what other people do, because so many other people do it. They accept beliefs simply because they are the majority belief. They'll even kill someone who has never harmed them, simply because they are told to by someone they see as being in a position of authority. They even think of such killing as "honorable".

Lets contrast that with being an Priest.

http://www.wikihow.com...

Eight years ... a RIGOROUS process that many people cannot meet. A rigorous education and grooming process. MANY steps required to join the priesthood, with MANY opportunities to quit. The decision to become a priest is arduous. Rigorous. Demanding. And it is the achievement of a very challenging process. Those who hold the title of priest have been through a VERY difficult process.
And yet, those priests who don't stop studying once they have become a priest, quite often become atheists.
- Robert M Price, who now supports Jesus mythicism, is a former Catholic priest.
- Bart Ehrman is a former Christian pastor.
- Dan Barker is a former Christian pastor.
- Stephen F Url is a former Christian pastor.
- Matt Dillahunty was studying to become a Christian pastor.

Those not afraid of independent thought, who hold themselves to rigorous ethical guidelines regarding the beliefs, who strive to expand their research and education, seem to have a propensity to become agnostics and atheists.

You could certainly be an atheist because all it requires is a disbelief in God. You'd have to mature mentally, but you could get there. The problem is that you're not an independent thinker, and with the intellect you display, that might not be a horrible thing for you. But you could never be what most would consider an "informed atheist", because you don't display independent thought, rational thought, or critical thinking skills. You tend to believe what you're told to believe. And once you accept a position, you vehemently resist suggestions to the contrary.
"If we believe absurdities we shall commit atrocities." -- Voltaire
annanicole
Posts: 19,787
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9/21/2014 4:51:59 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/21/2014 1:57:06 PM, neutral wrote:
So, I have had a couple of atheists tell me that I could NO WAY ever have been an atheist ... like there is a requirements other than not believing in God to be an atheist?

I mean, lets face it, the biggest, dumbest, hillbilly redneck can become an atheist by just saying, "I dern't think da is a Gawd!" Boom ... atheist. No more qualifications necessary.

Is that an implied slur against bulproof and Beastt?
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
Beastt
Posts: 5,135
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9/21/2014 4:56:25 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/21/2014 4:51:59 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 9/21/2014 1:57:06 PM, neutral wrote:
So, I have had a couple of atheists tell me that I could NO WAY ever have been an atheist ... like there is a requirements other than not believing in God to be an atheist?

I mean, lets face it, the biggest, dumbest, hillbilly redneck can become an atheist by just saying, "I dern't think da is a Gawd!" Boom ... atheist. No more qualifications necessary.

Is that an implied slur against bulproof and Beastt?

You can almost hear the mooing and see the swishing tail.
"If we believe absurdities we shall commit atrocities." -- Voltaire
annanicole
Posts: 19,787
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9/21/2014 5:08:12 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/21/2014 4:56:25 PM, Beastt wrote:
At 9/21/2014 4:51:59 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 9/21/2014 1:57:06 PM, neutral wrote:
So, I have had a couple of atheists tell me that I could NO WAY ever have been an atheist ... like there is a requirements other than not believing in God to be an atheist?

I mean, lets face it, the biggest, dumbest, hillbilly redneck can become an atheist by just saying, "I dern't think da is a Gawd!" Boom ... atheist. No more qualifications necessary.

Is that an implied slur against bulproof and Beastt?

You can almost hear the mooing and see the swishing tail.

I was simply asking him. Perhaps it isn't.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
annanicole
Posts: 19,787
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9/21/2014 5:19:00 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/21/2014 4:39:32 PM, Beastt wrote:
At 9/21/2014 1:57:06 PM, neutral wrote:
So, I have had a couple of atheists tell me that I could NO WAY ever have been an atheist ... like there is a requirements other than not believing in God to be an atheist?
I understand why they say that, but I disagree. Some people are atheists simply because they haven't been indoctrinated into any religion. The ones who are suggesting you're not intelligent enough, are informed atheists. They actually studied the claims of theology, did a reasonable degree of research, and realized that theism is untenable. Obviously, when you didn't believe, you hadn't really done any research. It was just the default position for you, (which defeats the Bible's claim of inherent knowledge of God).

Pffffft. All you are saying is that a logical, reasonable person who conducts the necessarily research will become an atheist. In case you want to try a play on words, I'll change to: "most logical, reasonable persons who conduct the necessarily research become atheists."

That's not true at all. I have looked at the atheist position many times. I looked at it recently during the posts on fulfilled prophesies. It is a position which requires more "leap-in-the-dark" type of "faith" (which really isn't "faith" in the first place) than the Christian position. It involves HUGE assumptions at every turn, assumptions that are tenaciously "clung to" for no other reason than they absolutely must be.

I do not even know that you realize just how many times YOU make assertions that are founded on no more than "so-and-so told me". What kinda research is that? If I listed off the rank assertions that you have made (and made no attempt to back up with any evidence), the number would tally into the 20's or 30's. And #1 on the list would be the first one: I asked about six or eight questions regarding the authenticity of Mark 16: 9-20. They weren't very hard. How many did you answer? A grand total of zilch! After being asked many times, you finally did respond by inventing your own defense of the passage, then shooting it down. I guess you thought you did pretty decent.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
Otokage
Posts: 2,351
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9/21/2014 6:19:22 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/21/2014 1:57:06 PM, neutral wrote:
So, I have had a couple of atheists tell me that I could NO WAY ever have been an atheist ... like there is a requirements other than not believing in God to be an atheist?

I mean, lets face it, the biggest, dumbest, hillbilly redneck can become an atheist by just saying, "I dern't think da is a Gawd!" Boom ... atheist. No more qualifications necessary.

That does not mean that there are no atheists of high achievement, but being an atheist is not one of the things that 'makes' them a high achiever. Its just a conclusion.

Lets contrast that with being an Priest.

http://www.wikihow.com...

Eight years ... a RIGOROUS process that many people cannot meet. A rigorous education and grooming process. MANY steps required to join the priesthood, with MANY opportunities to quit. The decision to become a priest is arduous. Rigorous. Demanding. And it is the achievement of a very challenging process. Those who hold the title of priest have been through a VERY difficult process.

That contrasts rather sharply with the deacon to be an atheist and the rigor required to hold the 'position'.

Again, it strikes me as simply absurd that many atheist believe there is any rigor whatsoever required to be an atheist. There are certainly very good and bad atheists, but being atheist? In an of itself ... there is no atheist priesthood ... you are all atheists.

A man who calls himself 'Christian' yet does nothing to follow the scripture is ... well, the Bible speaks of this. But atheism? Dumb, mean, stupid, smart, heroic ... there is no delineation made merely by 'being' atheist.

You can be an atheist because the color blue offends you ... and that means there is no God! Still and atheist.

You can be an atheist because spit is wet! Still and atheist.

There isn't necessarily ANYTHING 'intellectual' about the decision to be an atheist. Nothing whatsoever (though there can be).

I wonder why so many atheists assume that there is some huge intellectual hurdle to 'being atheist's anyway?

To then turn around and deride theologians? Silliness.

Well, you could say someone is an atheist because they just don't believe in God. Although saying someone does not believe in God is a bit difficult to prove, even if they say they don't. Maybe they haven't done any research at all on the subject so they can't be sure about it, they just say they are. Is that an atheist? Well, it is an atheist wannabe maybe, but not a real atheist. A real atheist would never answer you "i don't like blue color" when you ask him/her "why do you think God does not exist?". They will generaly confront you with an argument that makes sense (which doesn't mean you need to agree with that argument).

A mother of a friend of mine, when her husband was dying, prayed. And I was like: I didn't know your mum was a christian. He said - oh, she's not, but I guess she does it "just in case".

Well if you are praying, you can not be an atheist sorry, but you still can pretend to be one.
neutral
Posts: 4,478
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9/22/2014 12:59:11 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/21/2014 6:19:22 PM, Otokage wrote:
At 9/21/2014 1:57:06 PM, neutral wrote:
So, I have had a couple of atheists tell me that I could NO WAY ever have been an atheist ... like there is a requirements other than not believing in God to be an atheist?

I mean, lets face it, the biggest, dumbest, hillbilly redneck can become an atheist by just saying, "I dern't think da is a Gawd!" Boom ... atheist. No more qualifications necessary.

That does not mean that there are no atheists of high achievement, but being an atheist is not one of the things that 'makes' them a high achiever. Its just a conclusion.

Lets contrast that with being an Priest.

http://www.wikihow.com...

Eight years ... a RIGOROUS process that many people cannot meet. A rigorous education and grooming process. MANY steps required to join the priesthood, with MANY opportunities to quit. The decision to become a priest is arduous. Rigorous. Demanding. And it is the achievement of a very challenging process. Those who hold the title of priest have been through a VERY difficult process.

That contrasts rather sharply with the deacon to be an atheist and the rigor required to hold the 'position'.

Again, it strikes me as simply absurd that many atheist believe there is any rigor whatsoever required to be an atheist. There are certainly very good and bad atheists, but being atheist? In an of itself ... there is no atheist priesthood ... you are all atheists.

A man who calls himself 'Christian' yet does nothing to follow the scripture is ... well, the Bible speaks of this. But atheism? Dumb, mean, stupid, smart, heroic ... there is no delineation made merely by 'being' atheist.

You can be an atheist because the color blue offends you ... and that means there is no God! Still and atheist.

You can be an atheist because spit is wet! Still and atheist.

There isn't necessarily ANYTHING 'intellectual' about the decision to be an atheist. Nothing whatsoever (though there can be).

I wonder why so many atheists assume that there is some huge intellectual hurdle to 'being atheist's anyway?

To then turn around and deride theologians? Silliness.

Well, you could say someone is an atheist because they just don't believe in God. Although saying someone does not believe in God is a bit difficult to prove, even if they say they don't. Maybe they haven't done any research at all on the subject so they can't be sure about it, they just say they are. Is that an atheist? Well, it is an atheist wannabe maybe, but not a real atheist. A real atheist would never answer you "i don't like blue color" when you ask him/her "why do you think God does not exist?". They will generaly confront you with an argument that makes sense (which doesn't mean you need to agree with that argument).

A mother of a friend of mine, when her husband was dying, prayed. And I was like: I didn't know your mum was a christian. He said - oh, she's not, but I guess she does it "just in case".

Well if you are praying, you can not be an atheist sorry, but you still can pretend to be one.

Really the Key point for any decision along the religious spectrum is that there are different reasons for holding a position.

To flip this, many atheists do not get 'Creationists' - to put it mildly. To hold a belief without evidence, or often despite evidence, and it boggles their mind. What many fail to realize is that there is something gained in the process: certainty.

Its quite a biit easier in many cases to get along in life when you are certain. Homosexuality is wrong - don't need evidence or explanation - just certain. You can again flip that to extremists within atheism like Chris Hitchens, religion is just poison - he's certain. Punching holes in his argument did not lead Chris to change his opinion. On the contrary, it lead him to double down time and time again, to the point where he was doubling down to the point of advocating genocide in the Middle East.

Regardless of position on the religious spectrum, its a dangerous mindset.

In this particular case, there is a sense of ... shock? ... that several atheists would decide that certain people could not be atheists based on their perception of intellect? As if there is an intellectual test that one must pass upon declaring for atheism? Or that it magically makes you smart? These same atheists are also quite derisive toward preists, and usually quite aggressive toward even the pretense - yet the process of becoming a priest is ... extremely hard.

So I am left baffled why someone would believes that atheism, with no gates or certification, is somehow intellectually rigorous ... but preists ... are stupid? There is something amiss there.

That does not mean that all atheism is the result of intellectual failure. There are some very intelligent atheists. However, not all atheists are 'intelligent' as we would expect with any human population and their distribution over a Bell curve. Atheism can be driven by science, but it can also be driven by pettiness, for example, that God didn't give someone something they wanted ... therefore there must be no God.

We should be careful in how we treat things, and to see several atheists make that claim yesterday alone was ... a bit of shock and begs the question: what intellectuyal attainment is required to be an atheist that you don;t think someone could achieve?
bulproof
Posts: 25,269
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9/22/2014 1:53:11 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/22/2014 12:59:11 AM, neutral wrote:
At 9/21/2014 6:19:22 PM, Otokage wrote:
At 9/21/2014 1:57:06 PM, neutral wrote:
So, I have had a couple of atheists tell me that I could NO WAY ever have been an atheist ... like there is a requirements other than not believing in God to be an atheist?

I mean, lets face it, the biggest, dumbest, hillbilly redneck can become an atheist by just saying, "I dern't think da is a Gawd!" Boom ... atheist. No more qualifications necessary.

That does not mean that there are no atheists of high achievement, but being an atheist is not one of the things that 'makes' them a high achiever. Its just a conclusion.

Lets contrast that with being an Priest.

http://www.wikihow.com...

Eight years ... a RIGOROUS process that many people cannot meet. A rigorous education and grooming process. MANY steps required to join the priesthood, with MANY opportunities to quit. The decision to become a priest is arduous. Rigorous. Demanding. And it is the achievement of a very challenging process. Those who hold the title of priest have been through a VERY difficult process.

That contrasts rather sharply with the deacon to be an atheist and the rigor required to hold the 'position'.

Again, it strikes me as simply absurd that many atheist believe there is any rigor whatsoever required to be an atheist. There are certainly very good and bad atheists, but being atheist? In an of itself ... there is no atheist priesthood ... you are all atheists.

A man who calls himself 'Christian' yet does nothing to follow the scripture is ... well, the Bible speaks of this. But atheism? Dumb, mean, stupid, smart, heroic ... there is no delineation made merely by 'being' atheist.

You can be an atheist because the color blue offends you ... and that means there is no God! Still and atheist.

You can be an atheist because spit is wet! Still and atheist.

There isn't necessarily ANYTHING 'intellectual' about the decision to be an atheist. Nothing whatsoever (though there can be).

I wonder why so many atheists assume that there is some huge intellectual hurdle to 'being atheist's anyway?

To then turn around and deride theologians? Silliness.

Well, you could say someone is an atheist because they just don't believe in God. Although saying someone does not believe in God is a bit difficult to prove, even if they say they don't. Maybe they haven't done any research at all on the subject so they can't be sure about it, they just say they are. Is that an atheist? Well, it is an atheist wannabe maybe, but not a real atheist. A real atheist would never answer you "i don't like blue color" when you ask him/her "why do you think God does not exist?". They will generaly confront you with an argument that makes sense (which doesn't mean you need to agree with that argument).

A mother of a friend of mine, when her husband was dying, prayed. And I was like: I didn't know your mum was a christian. He said - oh, she's not, but I guess she does it "just in case".

Well if you are praying, you can not be an atheist sorry, but you still can pretend to be one.

Really the Key point for any decision along the religious spectrum is that there are different reasons for holding a position.

To flip this, many atheists do not get 'Creationists' - to put it mildly. To hold a belief without evidence, or often despite evidence, and it boggles their mind. What many fail to realize is that there is something gained in the process: certainty.

Its quite a biit easier in many cases to get along in life when you are certain. Homosexuality is wrong - don't need evidence or explanation - just certain. You can again flip that to extremists within atheism like Chris Hitchens, religion is just poison - he's certain. Punching holes in his argument did not lead Chris to change his opinion. On the contrary, it lead him to double down time and time again, to the point where he was doubling down to the point of advocating genocide in the Middle East.

Regardless of position on the religious spectrum, its a dangerous mindset.

In this particular case, there is a sense of ... shock? ... that several atheists would decide that certain people could not be atheists based on their perception of intellect? As if there is an intellectual test that one must pass upon declaring for atheism? Or that it magically makes you smart? These same atheists are also quite derisive toward preists, and usually quite aggressive toward even the pretense - yet the process of becoming a priest is ... extremely hard.

So I am left baffled why someone would believes that atheism, with no gates or certification, is somehow intellectually rigorous ... but preists ... are stupid? There is something amiss there.

That does not mean that all atheism is the result of intellectual failure. There are some very intelligent atheists. However, not all atheists are 'intelligent' as we would expect with any human population and their distribution over a Bell curve. Atheism can be driven by science, but it can also be driven by pettiness, for example, that God didn't give someone something they wanted ... therefore there must be no God.

We should be careful in how we treat things, and to see several atheists make that claim yesterday alone was ... a bit of shock and begs the question: what intellectuyal attainment is required to be an atheist that you don;t think someone could achieve?

Independent thought.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
Otokage
Posts: 2,351
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9/22/2014 4:46:15 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/22/2014 12:59:11 AM, neutral wrote:
At 9/21/2014 6:19:22 PM, Otokage wrote:
At 9/21/2014 1:57:06 PM, neutral wrote:
So, I have had a couple of atheists tell me that I could NO WAY ever have been an atheist ... like there is a requirements other than not believing in God to be an atheist?

I mean, lets face it, the biggest, dumbest, hillbilly redneck can become an atheist by just saying, "I dern't think da is a Gawd!" Boom ... atheist. No more qualifications necessary.

That does not mean that there are no atheists of high achievement, but being an atheist is not one of the things that 'makes' them a high achiever. Its just a conclusion.

Lets contrast that with being an Priest.

http://www.wikihow.com...

Eight years ... a RIGOROUS process that many people cannot meet. A rigorous education and grooming process. MANY steps required to join the priesthood, with MANY opportunities to quit. The decision to become a priest is arduous. Rigorous. Demanding. And it is the achievement of a very challenging process. Those who hold the title of priest have been through a VERY difficult process.

That contrasts rather sharply with the deacon to be an atheist and the rigor required to hold the 'position'.

Again, it strikes me as simply absurd that many atheist believe there is any rigor whatsoever required to be an atheist. There are certainly very good and bad atheists, but being atheist? In an of itself ... there is no atheist priesthood ... you are all atheists.

A man who calls himself 'Christian' yet does nothing to follow the scripture is ... well, the Bible speaks of this. But atheism? Dumb, mean, stupid, smart, heroic ... there is no delineation made merely by 'being' atheist.

You can be an atheist because the color blue offends you ... and that means there is no God! Still and atheist.

You can be an atheist because spit is wet! Still and atheist.

There isn't necessarily ANYTHING 'intellectual' about the decision to be an atheist. Nothing whatsoever (though there can be).

I wonder why so many atheists assume that there is some huge intellectual hurdle to 'being atheist's anyway?

To then turn around and deride theologians? Silliness.

Well, you could say someone is an atheist because they just don't believe in God. Although saying someone does not believe in God is a bit difficult to prove, even if they say they don't. Maybe they haven't done any research at all on the subject so they can't be sure about it, they just say they are. Is that an atheist? Well, it is an atheist wannabe maybe, but not a real atheist. A real atheist would never answer you "i don't like blue color" when you ask him/her "why do you think God does not exist?". They will generaly confront you with an argument that makes sense (which doesn't mean you need to agree with that argument).

A mother of a friend of mine, when her husband was dying, prayed. And I was like: I didn't know your mum was a christian. He said - oh, she's not, but I guess she does it "just in case".

Well if you are praying, you can not be an atheist sorry, but you still can pretend to be one.

Really the Key point for any decision along the religious spectrum is that there are different reasons for holding a position.

To flip this, many atheists do not get 'Creationists' - to put it mildly. To hold a belief without evidence, or often despite evidence, and it boggles their mind. What many fail to realize is that there is something gained in the process: certainty.

Its quite a biit easier in many cases to get along in life when you are certain. Homosexuality is wrong - don't need evidence or explanation - just certain. You can again flip that to extremists within atheism like Chris Hitchens, religion is just poison - he's certain. Punching holes in his argument did not lead Chris to change his opinion. On the contrary, it lead him to double down time and time again, to the point where he was doubling down to the point of advocating genocide in the Middle East.

Regardless of position on the religious spectrum, its a dangerous mindset.

In this particular case, there is a sense of ... shock? ... that several atheists would decide that certain people could not be atheists based on their perception of intellect? As if there is an intellectual test that one must pass upon declaring for atheism? Or that it magically makes you smart? These same atheists are also quite derisive toward preists, and usually quite aggressive toward even the pretense - yet the process of becoming a priest is ... extremely hard.

So I am left baffled why someone would believes that atheism, with no gates or certification, is somehow intellectually rigorous ... but preists ... are stupid? There is something amiss there.

That does not mean that all atheism is the result of intellectual failure. There are some very intelligent atheists. However, not all atheists are 'intelligent' as we would expect with any human population and their distribution over a Bell curve. Atheism can be driven by science, but it can also be driven by pettiness, for example, that God didn't give someone something they wanted ... therefore there must be no God.

We should be careful in how we treat things, and to see several atheists make that claim yesterday alone was ... a bit of shock and begs the question: what intellectuyal attainment is required to be an atheist that you don;t think someone could achieve?

Personaly, I agree that atheism can not make someone smart, although it is related to intellect in several studies. There's a relation between being an atheist and being intelligent, which imo doesn't mean that by being an atheist, you will become smart. Probably the contrary: by being smart, you are more likely to be an atheist. That doesn't mean that you NEED to be smart to an atheist, of course not, anyone can be an atheist for several reasons, and more than anyone can pretend to be an atheist while they are not.

In summary, I think to choose atheism over theism is the most logical / scientific position (if you are really using logic to choose, which is rare), and therefore the smartest choice, which is not like saying that Christians are idiots.
neutral
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9/22/2014 5:29:30 AM
Posted: 2 years ago

Personaly, I agree that atheism can not make someone smart, although it is related to intellect in several studies.

The deviation in those studies is less than 1%. Its like saying I have an IQ of 98 and you have one of 98.05 - its statistically and practically negligible. Again, this is exactly what I take issue with ... as in 'really' I am an atheist because I am intelligent. (Not directed at you personally of course). There are plenty of intelligent people who are atheists, but there are some complete bone heads who are atheists as well - and ironically, the less intelligent they are, the more they tend to correlate atheism and intelligence - hence the comments that drove this thread.

Again, there are some very intelligent atheists, but intellect is not a requirement or hurdle to atheism. And, unlike preists, when an athest is clearly unable ... there is no way to wash him or her out because of it.

There's a relation between being an atheist and being intelligent, which imo doesn't mean that by being an atheist, you will become smart. Probably the contrary: by being smart, you are more likely to be an atheist. That doesn't mean that you NEED to be smart to an atheist, of course not, anyone can be an atheist for several reasons, and more than anyone can pretend to be an atheist while they are not.

Again, that is statistically minute, and as athesm grows that point is likely to further dilute to complete non-existance - no-pun intended.


In summary, I think to choose atheism over theism is the most logical / scientific position (if you are really using logic to choose, which is rare), and therefore the smartest choice, which is not like saying that Christians are idiots.

That is a personal position. Not one I doubt, but having debated many atheists over the years, there are all kinds of atheists who have no logical reason whatsoever to be atheist. Just trying to get them to explain those scinetific and logical reasoning to support the position is often ... painful. And the more they resist that explanative and logical process, the more likely they are to believe that there is some magical intellectual hurdle that atheism requires. Its does not - it only requires you to think there is no God ... for whatever reason you choose.
neutral
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9/22/2014 5:30:03 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/22/2014 1:53:11 AM, bulproof wrote:

Independent thought.

Which you have yet to demonstrate - you define mob atheism.
bulproof
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9/22/2014 7:03:17 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/22/2014 5:29:30 AM, neutral wrote:

Personaly, I agree that atheism can not make someone smart, although it is related to intellect in several studies.

The deviation in those studies is less than 1%. Its like saying I have an IQ of 98 and you have one of 98.05 - its statistically and practically negligible. Again, this is exactly what I take issue with ... as in 'really' I am an atheist because I am intelligent. (Not directed at you personally of course). There are plenty of intelligent people who are atheists, but there are some complete bone heads who are atheists as well - and ironically, the less intelligent they are, the more they tend to correlate atheism and intelligence - hence the comments that drove this thread.

Again, there are some very intelligent atheists, but intellect is not a requirement or hurdle to atheism. And, unlike preists, when an athest is clearly unable ... there is no way to wash him or her out because of it.



There's a relation between being an atheist and being intelligent, which imo doesn't mean that by being an atheist, you will become smart. Probably the contrary: by being smart, you are more likely to be an atheist. That doesn't mean that you NEED to be smart to an atheist, of course not, anyone can be an atheist for several reasons, and more than anyone can pretend to be an atheist while they are not.

Again, that is statistically minute, and as athesm grows that point is likely to further dilute to complete non-existance - no-pun intended.


In summary, I think to choose atheism over theism is the most logical / scientific position (if you are really using logic to choose, which is rare), and therefore the smartest choice, which is not like saying that Christians are idiots.

That is a personal position. Not one I doubt, but having debated many atheists over the years, there are all kinds of atheists who have no logical reason whatsoever to be atheist. Just trying to get them to explain those scinetific and logical reasoning to support the position is often ... painful. And the more they resist that explanative and logical process, the more likely they are to believe that there is some magical intellectual hurdle that atheism requires. Its does not - it only requires you to think there is no God ... for whatever reason you choose.

God is a manmade concept. Man has been creating gods for tens of thousands of years at least, all god's are a creation of man.
It really only takes the exercise of some clear thinking to be an atheist.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
neutral
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9/22/2014 7:09:16 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/22/2014 7:03:17 AM, bulproof wrote:

God is a manmade concept. Man has been creating gods for tens of thousands of years at least, all god's are a creation of man.

Why don't you actually try supporting that statement with evidence rather than barfing it out Nazi style?

Right, you can't ... which is why you are a troll.

It really only takes the exercise of some clear thinking to be an atheist.

Not as you demonstrate - all it really takes is narcassism and a complete inability to notice social queues and norms ...
TheGreatAndPowerful
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9/22/2014 8:57:19 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/21/2014 1:57:06 PM, neutral wrote:
So, I have had a couple of atheists tell me that I could NO WAY ever have been an atheist ... like there is a requirements other than not believing in God to be an atheist?

I mean, lets face it, the biggest, dumbest, hillbilly redneck can become an atheist by just saying, "I dern't think da is a Gawd!" Boom ... atheist. No more qualifications necessary.

That's not how you become an atheist.
DPMartin
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9/22/2014 9:47:37 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
Na, what makes an atheist an atheist, is the refusal to acknowledge the Creator and Judge privately and publically. No other requirement. There may be reasons and philosophies and things they look to, to support their atheism. but it"s the lack of acknowledgment. In every crowed there are geniuses and butheads, so pointing to idiots proves nothing about a group other than they include butheads.

But to be clear a priest is one who is supposed to have a relationship with his God, that goes both ways. And theist don"t necessarily have a relationship with the Creator and Judge. They might acknowledge that there is a god, but what god and do they know the Creator and Judge is the question on that.

There are supposed priests who have gone atheist, and atheists who have become evangelical for Christ. So, could it be that one"s knowledge of God would require the acknowledgment of God in the experience of God"s Presence?
neutral
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9/22/2014 10:22:57 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/22/2014 8:57:19 AM, TheGreatAndPowerful wrote:
At 9/21/2014 1:57:06 PM, neutral wrote:
So, I have had a couple of atheists tell me that I could NO WAY ever have been an atheist ... like there is a requirements other than not believing in God to be an atheist?

I mean, lets face it, the biggest, dumbest, hillbilly redneck can become an atheist by just saying, "I dern't think da is a Gawd!" Boom ... atheist. No more qualifications necessary.

That's not how you become an atheist.

Oh? Is there like a magic portal you walk through or something? Or is it just not believing in God ... for whatever reason?
TheGreatAndPowerful
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9/22/2014 10:38:26 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/22/2014 10:22:57 AM, neutral wrote:
At 9/22/2014 8:57:19 AM, TheGreatAndPowerful wrote:
At 9/21/2014 1:57:06 PM, neutral wrote:
So, I have had a couple of atheists tell me that I could NO WAY ever have been an atheist ... like there is a requirements other than not believing in God to be an atheist?

I mean, lets face it, the biggest, dumbest, hillbilly redneck can become an atheist by just saying, "I dern't think da is a Gawd!" Boom ... atheist. No more qualifications necessary.

That's not how you become an atheist.

Oh? Is there like a magic portal you walk through or something? Or is it just not believing in God ... for whatever reason?

The latter. Anyone can lie and say they don't believe in god, but it's not the words, it's the believe (or lack thereof) that determines if someone is an atheist or not.
neutral
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9/22/2014 10:40:21 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/22/2014 10:38:26 AM, TheGreatAndPowerful wrote:

The latter. Anyone can lie and say they don't believe in god, but it's not the words, it's the believe (or lack thereof) that determines if someone is an atheist or not.

I don't disagree with you ...
bulproof
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9/22/2014 10:48:02 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/22/2014 7:09:16 AM, neutral wrote:
At 9/22/2014 7:03:17 AM, bulproof wrote:

God is a manmade concept. Man has been creating gods for tens of thousands of years at least, all god's are a creation of man.

Why don't you actually try supporting that statement with evidence rather than barfing it out Nazi style?

Right, you can't ... which is why you are a troll.

It really only takes the exercise of some clear thinking to be an atheist.

Not as you demonstrate - all it really takes is narcassism and a complete inability to notice social queues and norms ...

Show me a god that isn't man made.

Show me a claim about the existence of a god that wasn't made by man
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
DPMartin
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9/22/2014 11:30:29 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/22/2014 10:48:02 AM, bulproof wrote:
Show me a god that isn't man made.

Show me a claim about the existence of a god that wasn't made by man

If all claims are of men then who should claim that there is a Creator and Judge, in your view?

If a god is man made then sure its bogus, but what if the Creator and Judge is man experienced, should men keep it to themselves or tell someone else if the subject comes up? How can you prove that all of man"s experiences are man made anyway?
neutral
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9/22/2014 11:38:25 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/22/2014 10:48:02 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 9/22/2014 7:09:16 AM, neutral wrote:
At 9/22/2014 7:03:17 AM, bulproof wrote:

God is a manmade concept. Man has been creating gods for tens of thousands of years at least, all god's are a creation of man.

Why don't you actually try supporting that statement with evidence rather than barfing it out Nazi style?

Right, you can't ... which is why you are a troll.

It really only takes the exercise of some clear thinking to be an atheist.

Not as you demonstrate - all it really takes is narcassism and a complete inability to notice social queues and norms ...

Show me a god that isn't man made.

Show me a claim about the existence of a god that wasn't made by man

Creation.

Really, you should attempt to not be so abusively denial oriented and open you mind to ther ideas than the need to hate at any cost.
debateuser
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9/22/2014 1:54:57 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/22/2014 11:38:25 AM, neutral wrote:
At 9/22/2014 10:48:02 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 9/22/2014 7:09:16 AM, neutral wrote:
At 9/22/2014 7:03:17 AM, bulproof wrote:

God is a manmade concept. Man has been creating gods for tens of thousands of years at least, all god's are a creation of man.

Why don't you actually try supporting that statement with evidence rather than barfing it out Nazi style?

Right, you can't ... which is why you are a troll.

It really only takes the exercise of some clear thinking to be an atheist.

Not as you demonstrate - all it really takes is narcassism and a complete inability to notice social queues and norms ...

Show me a god that isn't man made.

Show me a claim about the existence of a god that wasn't made by man

Creation.

Really, you should attempt to not be so abusively denial oriented and open you mind to ther ideas than the need to hate at any cost.

And where did the claim of creation came from. Lol humans
Scientific Errors In Religion : Atheists are right that religion is a myth

Read this topic on below link:

http://www.debate.org...
debateuser
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9/22/2014 2:29:03 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/21/2014 1:57:06 PM, neutral wrote:
So, I have had a couple of atheists tell me that I could NO WAY ever have been an atheist ... like there is a requirements other than not believing in God to be an atheist?

Not knowing anything about religion is something else. You are misinterpreting it as atheism. Atheists know what religion says and after knowing that atheists find the religious beliefs to be silly.

I mean, lets face it, the biggest, dumbest, hillbilly redneck can become an atheist by just saying, "I dern't think da is a Gawd!" Boom ... atheist. No more qualifications necessary.

Atheists are people who can think by themselves and don't need a silly book of gospels to guide them.

That does not mean that there are no atheists of high achievement, but being an atheist is not one of the things that 'makes' them a high achiever. Its just a conclusion.

Lets contrast that with being an Priest.

http://www.wikihow.com...

Eight years ... a RIGOROUS process that many people cannot meet. A rigorous education and grooming process. MANY steps required to join the priesthood, with MANY opportunities to quit. The decision to become a priest is arduous. Rigorous. Demanding. And it is the achievement of a very challenging process. Those who hold the title of priest have been through a VERY difficult process.

Religious organizations are corrupt and favouritism is common. Eight years of paedophillia is also required for priesthood by the way. Lol

That contrasts rather sharply with the deacon to be an atheist and the rigor required to hold the 'position'.

Again, it strikes me as simply absurd that many atheist believe there is any rigor whatsoever required to be an atheist. There are certainly very good and bad atheists, but being atheist? In an of itself ... there is no atheist priesthood ... you are all atheists.

A man who calls himself 'Christian' yet does nothing to follow the scripture is ... well, the Bible speaks of this. But atheism? Dumb, mean, stupid, smart, heroic ... there is no delineation made merely by 'being' atheist.

You can be an atheist because the color blue offends you ... and that means there is no God! Still and atheist.

You can be an atheist because spit is wet! Still and atheist.

There isn't necessarily ANYTHING 'intellectual' about the decision to be an atheist. Nothing whatsoever (though there can be).

I wonder why so many atheists assume that there is some huge intellectual hurdle to 'being atheist's anyway?

To then turn around and deride theologians? Silliness.

Atheists have higher IQ than the general population as has been shown by various surveys

http://www.dailymail.co.uk...

The leading scientists 72 % of them are atheists according to a survey of 1998 of National Academy of Sciences. Atheism has grown after 1998 by the way.

http://ncse.com...
Scientific Errors In Religion : Atheists are right that religion is a myth

Read this topic on below link:

http://www.debate.org...
neutral
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9/22/2014 3:42:58 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/22/2014 2:29:03 PM, debateuser wrote:.

Atheists are people who can think by themselves and don't need a silly book of gospels to guide them.

Well, that is nice. I al glad that you think the vast majority of e world does not think for themselves if they hold a different opinion than you. Its also good that you have all the answers ... by yourself. Good Luck with war and peace, ethics and crime. Let us know when you have the simple solutions.


Religious organizations are corrupt and favouritism is common. Eight years of paedophillia is also required for priesthood by the way. Lol

As opposed to Wall Street and Richard Dawkins saying its in your genes to rape kids?

But thanks for the hate troll. Best hang out at the BBC while you are at it.


Atheists have higher IQ than the general population as has been shown by various surveys

http://itsnobody.wordpress.com...

Not only are you wrong, but you are a racist too boot.

Enjoy extremists.
neutral
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9/22/2014 3:44:48 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/22/2014 1:54:57 PM, debateuser wrote:

And where did the claim of creation came from. Lol humans

No DB - the universe was definitely created ... LOL or something.
ThinkFirst
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9/22/2014 4:05:28 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/21/2014 4:56:25 PM, Beastt wrote:
At 9/21/2014 4:51:59 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 9/21/2014 1:57:06 PM, neutral wrote:
So, I have had a couple of atheists tell me that I could NO WAY ever have been an atheist ... like there is a requirements other than not believing in God to be an atheist?

I mean, lets face it, the biggest, dumbest, hillbilly redneck can become an atheist by just saying, "I dern't think da is a Gawd!" Boom ... atheist. No more qualifications necessary.

Is that an implied slur against bulproof and Beastt?

You can almost hear the mooing and see the swishing tail.

...almost?
"Never attribute to villainy that which can be adequately explained by stupidity"
-----
"Men rarely if ever dream up a god superior to themselves. Most gods have the manners and morals of a spoiled child. "

-- Robert A Heinlein
bulproof
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9/22/2014 7:13:36 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/22/2014 11:30:29 AM, DPMartin wrote:
At 9/22/2014 10:48:02 AM, bulproof wrote:
Show me a god that isn't man made.

Show me a claim about the existence of a god that wasn't made by man

If all claims are of men then who should claim that there is a Creator and Judge, in your view?

If a god is man made then sure its bogus, but what if the Creator and Judge is man experienced, should men keep it to themselves or tell someone else if the subject comes up? How can you prove that all of man"s experiences are man made anyway?

Bog tells you of his experience with god he even tells you god speaks through him and yet you scoff at him and instead believe long dead ignorant goatherds.

Why is that? If what you claim has value?
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin