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ThinkFirst
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9/23/2014 9:09:53 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
Occasionally, I let my mind wander into the realm of daydreaming fantasy, and wonder what this world might have been like had religion never taken such a foothold, in this world... If the Arabic world had never been shut down by "holy crusades" on one side, and the Mongol Horde, on the other, to what heights might they have soared?

I recently quoted a falsehood, spoken by Dr. Neil DeGrasse Tyson. He had stated that the reason for the decline in Arabic scientific endeavor was the condemnation of the manipulation of numbers by Al-Ghazali. This was inaccurate, but I repeated it. Why? Because I trust Dr. Tyson. However, Dr. Tyson is human, and fully capable of mistakes. I am equally human, and equally capable of mistakes. I still trust Dr. Tyson, because I don't believe his errant comment to have been malicious or intentionally misleading. However, I will fact check anything that I repeat, henceforth.

This type of trust that humans place in those that excel is critical to my wondering about things. I place my trust in the scientific community for information about the universe around us. Many of my fellow agnostics and atheists do the same. Religious believers place their trust in religious leaders, clergy, and ancient manuscripts for information about the universe around us. While I cannot (due to lack of complete knowledge) outrightly deny the possibility of a deity capable of "creation," it seems far less likely to me than physical forces having brought about conditions required for the formation of the first protein. On such a wondrous planet as ours, it seems strange to me that so many discoveries being made, daily, would not absolutely demolish the foundations of some of the more ridiculous religious claims, and begin uniting people under a single banner of "humanity." Complicated and many are the social, psychological, geographical, and "spiritual" reasons for this, but I can't help but marvel at the things that keep people bound, against all odds and in the face of clear facts to the contrary of held beliefs.

With that stated, I wonder the following, and I am curious what people's thoughts might be on this question:

What would this world be like, if humanity had been "enlightened" enough to unite as one people, and built one single culture under the banner of science and industry, rather than having spawned religions around the world? How much more advanced would our society have been, if religion had never held political power, and we had discarded all of the ancient tales and superstitions in favor of advancing HUMANITY, as our ultimate ideal, rather than fairy tales and supernatural monster stories?

Thoughts?
"Never attribute to villainy that which can be adequately explained by stupidity"
-----
"Men rarely if ever dream up a god superior to themselves. Most gods have the manners and morals of a spoiled child. "

-- Robert A Heinlein
RoderickSpode
Posts: 2,371
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9/23/2014 2:05:54 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/23/2014 9:09:53 AM, ThinkFirst wrote:
Occasionally, I let my mind wander into the realm of daydreaming fantasy, and wonder what this world might have been like had religion never taken such a foothold, in this world... If the Arabic world had never been shut down by "holy crusades" on one side, and the Mongol Horde, on the other, to what heights might they have soared?

I recently quoted a falsehood, spoken by Dr. Neil DeGrasse Tyson. He had stated that the reason for the decline in Arabic scientific endeavor was the condemnation of the manipulation of numbers by Al-Ghazali. This was inaccurate, but I repeated it. Why? Because I trust Dr. Tyson. However, Dr. Tyson is human, and fully capable of mistakes. I am equally human, and equally capable of mistakes. I still trust Dr. Tyson, because I don't believe his errant comment to have been malicious or intentionally misleading. However, I will fact check anything that I repeat, henceforth.

This type of trust that humans place in those that excel is critical to my wondering about things. I place my trust in the scientific community for information about the universe around us. Many of my fellow agnostics and atheists do the same. Religious believers place their trust in religious leaders, clergy, and ancient manuscripts for information about the universe around us. While I cannot (due to lack of complete knowledge) outrightly deny the possibility of a deity capable of "creation," it seems far less likely to me than physical forces having brought about conditions required for the formation of the first protein. On such a wondrous planet as ours, it seems strange to me that so many discoveries being made, daily, would not absolutely demolish the foundations of some of the more ridiculous religious claims, and begin uniting people under a single banner of "humanity." Complicated and many are the social, psychological, geographical, and "spiritual" reasons for this, but I can't help but marvel at the things that keep people bound, against all odds and in the face of clear facts to the contrary of held beliefs.

With that stated, I wonder the following, and I am curious what people's thoughts might be on this question:

What would this world be like, if humanity had been "enlightened" enough to unite as one people, and built one single culture under the banner of science and industry, rather than having spawned religions around the world? How much more advanced would our society have been, if religion had never held political power, and we had discarded all of the ancient tales and superstitions in favor of advancing HUMANITY, as our ultimate ideal, rather than fairy tales and supernatural monster stories?

Thoughts?
I think the founding fathers had a similar idea....but at the same considerably different. Religion obviously can have a negative connotation even among, say, Christians. The Sadducees and Pharisees would be a good example. What a number of the founding fathers seemed to believe was that religion (or at least in the negative connotation) could be eliminated, and men could still be guided by the Creator. That men could be divinely guided in their decisions....including political. And if the Creator is doing the guiding, the results would inevitably be better than being guided by a theocratic dictator overseeing government (including clergymen). But there idea of this exclusion of religion did not mean removal of things we associate with religion like churches, and even God. I think that in the fantasy you mentioned, things like churches and even God would be out of the picture.

Similar to Christians like myself, you recognize that there's a problem in the world. Things are not as they should be. However, I don't think the idea of an enlightened united people is possible. To use the phrase one bad apple spoils the bunch, or the Biblical phrase A little leaven leavens the whole lump, there's no way to control the many plagues of mankind like jealousy, pride, hunger for power, etc. We can't control human thought. One person might want peace and harmony, and another might want strife. Removing religion out of the picture is not going to eliminate any of those bad apples who's influence and actions spread like poison.

As far as science and the evolution verses creationism debate, I think there's a misconception in regards to the Christian's or theist's view of evolution. I can't speak for all Christians and theists, but I don't think generally the issue we take against macro-evolution is because we just don't like the idea of it, like having ancestors who were monkeys or common to monkeys. If God designed life that way, it wouldn't bother me one bit. If I was an atheist, I'm sure I wouldn't be bothered.The idea of being evolved could be quite flattering.

But when someone comes into a belief in Jesus Christ, they have to deal with the issue and how the reality of Christ relates to our existence. If Jesus Christ revealed Himself to you, you'd have to deal with the scientific implication of our existence. You might have to reconsider your position as uncomfortable as that might be, including a young universe/earth. You might have to consider why the earliest known historic civilizations fall within a young earth time period. You might have to consider the short life span of comets. You might have to consider what some fully educated scientists, who know far more than your average individual who are creationists have to say, even though they are in a considerable minority.

For the sake of argument, if Jesus Christ revealed himself to you, assuming He can do so in such a way that you know it's not an illusion or hallucination (like your new neighbor can easily do without any effort), would that cause you to reconsider your position towards science?

Like it or not, people are going to continue to ponder, consider, and search for God in the world as we know it today. And many of them will embrace a theistic religion. And history has proven so far that it's unpreventable. And this will also lead to a continued conflict not only between theism and atheism, but creation and evolution.
sovereigngracereigns
Posts: 585
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9/23/2014 4:43:49 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/23/2014 9:09:53 AM, ThinkFirst wrote:
Occasionally, I let my mind wander into the realm of daydreaming fantasy, and wonder what this world might have been like had religion never taken such a foothold, in this world... If the Arabic world had never been shut down by "holy crusades" on one side, and the Mongol Horde, on the other, to what heights might they have soared?

I recently quoted a falsehood, spoken by Dr. Neil DeGrasse Tyson. He had stated that the reason for the decline in Arabic scientific endeavor was the condemnation of the manipulation of numbers by Al-Ghazali. This was inaccurate, but I repeated it. Why? Because I trust Dr. Tyson. However, Dr. Tyson is human, and fully capable of mistakes. I am equally human, and equally capable of mistakes. I still trust Dr. Tyson, because I don't believe his errant comment to have been malicious or intentionally misleading. However, I will fact check anything that I repeat, henceforth.

This type of trust that humans place in those that excel is critical to my wondering about things. I place my trust in the scientific community for information about the universe around us. Many of my fellow agnostics and atheists do the same. Religious believers place their trust in religious leaders, clergy, and ancient manuscripts for information about the universe around us. While I cannot (due to lack of complete knowledge) outrightly deny the possibility of a deity capable of "creation," it seems far less likely to me than physical forces having brought about conditions required for the formation of the first protein. On such a wondrous planet as ours, it seems strange to me that so many discoveries being made, daily, would not absolutely demolish the foundations of some of the more ridiculous religious claims, and begin uniting people under a single banner of "humanity." Complicated and many are the social, psychological, geographical, and "spiritual" reasons for this, but I can't help but marvel at the things that keep people bound, against all odds and in the face of clear facts to the contrary of held beliefs.

With that stated, I wonder the following, and I am curious what people's thoughts might be on this question:

What would this world be like, if humanity had been "enlightened" enough to unite as one people, and built one single culture under the banner of science and industry, rather than having spawned religions around the world? How much more advanced would our society have been, if religion had never held political power, and we had discarded all of the ancient tales and superstitions in favor of advancing HUMANITY, as our ultimate ideal, rather than fairy tales and supernatural monster stories?

Thoughts?

We tried that once.

It was called "The Tower of Babel."
ChristianPunk
Posts: 1,710
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9/23/2014 5:42:14 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/23/2014 4:43:49 PM, sovereigngracereigns wrote:
At 9/23/2014 9:09:53 AM, ThinkFirst wrote:
Occasionally, I let my mind wander into the realm of daydreaming fantasy, and wonder what this world might have been like had religion never taken such a foothold, in this world... If the Arabic world had never been shut down by "holy crusades" on one side, and the Mongol Horde, on the other, to what heights might they have soared?

I recently quoted a falsehood, spoken by Dr. Neil DeGrasse Tyson. He had stated that the reason for the decline in Arabic scientific endeavor was the condemnation of the manipulation of numbers by Al-Ghazali. This was inaccurate, but I repeated it. Why? Because I trust Dr. Tyson. However, Dr. Tyson is human, and fully capable of mistakes. I am equally human, and equally capable of mistakes. I still trust Dr. Tyson, because I don't believe his errant comment to have been malicious or intentionally misleading. However, I will fact check anything that I repeat, henceforth.

This type of trust that humans place in those that excel is critical to my wondering about things. I place my trust in the scientific community for information about the universe around us. Many of my fellow agnostics and atheists do the same. Religious believers place their trust in religious leaders, clergy, and ancient manuscripts for information about the universe around us. While I cannot (due to lack of complete knowledge) outrightly deny the possibility of a deity capable of "creation," it seems far less likely to me than physical forces having brought about conditions required for the formation of the first protein. On such a wondrous planet as ours, it seems strange to me that so many discoveries being made, daily, would not absolutely demolish the foundations of some of the more ridiculous religious claims, and begin uniting people under a single banner of "humanity." Complicated and many are the social, psychological, geographical, and "spiritual" reasons for this, but I can't help but marvel at the things that keep people bound, against all odds and in the face of clear facts to the contrary of held beliefs.

With that stated, I wonder the following, and I am curious what people's thoughts might be on this question:

What would this world be like, if humanity had been "enlightened" enough to unite as one people, and built one single culture under the banner of science and industry, rather than having spawned religions around the world? How much more advanced would our society have been, if religion had never held political power, and we had discarded all of the ancient tales and superstitions in favor of advancing HUMANITY, as our ultimate ideal, rather than fairy tales and supernatural monster stories?

Thoughts?

We tried that once.

It was called "The Tower of Babel."

they came together and built a tower because they saw themselves equal to God. Different thing here.
ChristianPunk
Posts: 1,710
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9/23/2014 5:54:57 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/23/2014 9:09:53 AM, ThinkFirst wrote:
Occasionally, I let my mind wander into the realm of daydreaming fantasy, and wonder what this world might have been like had religion never taken such a foothold, in this world... If the Arabic world had never been shut down by "holy crusades" on one side, and the Mongol Horde, on the other, to what heights might they have soared?

I recently quoted a falsehood, spoken by Dr. Neil DeGrasse Tyson. He had stated that the reason for the decline in Arabic scientific endeavor was the condemnation of the manipulation of numbers by Al-Ghazali. This was inaccurate, but I repeated it. Why? Because I trust Dr. Tyson. However, Dr. Tyson is human, and fully capable of mistakes. I am equally human, and equally capable of mistakes. I still trust Dr. Tyson, because I don't believe his errant comment to have been malicious or intentionally misleading. However, I will fact check anything that I repeat, henceforth.

This type of trust that humans place in those that excel is critical to my wondering about things. I place my trust in the scientific community for information about the universe around us. Many of my fellow agnostics and atheists do the same. Religious believers place their trust in religious leaders, clergy, and ancient manuscripts for information about the universe around us. While I cannot (due to lack of complete knowledge) outrightly deny the possibility of a deity capable of "creation," it seems far less likely to me than physical forces having brought about conditions required for the formation of the first protein. On such a wondrous planet as ours, it seems strange to me that so many discoveries being made, daily, would not absolutely demolish the foundations of some of the more ridiculous religious claims, and begin uniting people under a single banner of "humanity." Complicated and many are the social, psychological, geographical, and "spiritual" reasons for this, but I can't help but marvel at the things that keep people bound, against all odds and in the face of clear facts to the contrary of held beliefs.

With that stated, I wonder the following, and I am curious what people's thoughts might be on this question:

What would this world be like, if humanity had been "enlightened" enough to unite as one people, and built one single culture under the banner of science and industry, rather than having spawned religions around the world? How much more advanced would our society have been, if religion had never held political power, and we had discarded all of the ancient tales and superstitions in favor of advancing HUMANITY, as our ultimate ideal, rather than fairy tales and supernatural monster stories?

Thoughts?

I got a question.

While people do things we can't understand or agree on, wouldn't it be better that they can have their religion and beliefs, but things like creation, ID, and religion stays out of the public education system? I'm a Christian, but i'm gonna rely on scientists over pastors when it comes to issues about science. Things like morality, meaning of life and afterlife sounds like philosophy/religion to me and that it should be more individual. I wouldn't tell my kids what to believe and what tell em, creationism is true. I'd tell them to be curious and ask questions like Socrates. I'd tell them to explore for answers.

So, would you be comftorbale with people expressing their religion in churches and their homes, while letting science teachers do their things?
LifeMeansGodIsGood
Posts: 2,744
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9/23/2014 6:18:01 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/23/2014 9:09:53 AM, ThinkFirst wrote:
Occasionally, I let my mind wander into the realm of daydreaming fantasy, and wonder what this world might have been like had religion never taken such a foothold, in this world... If the Arabic world had never been shut down by "holy crusades" on one side, and the Mongol Horde, on the other, to what heights might they have soared?

I recently quoted a falsehood, spoken by Dr. Neil DeGrasse Tyson. He had stated that the reason for the decline in Arabic scientific endeavor was the condemnation of the manipulation of numbers by Al-Ghazali. This was inaccurate, but I repeated it. Why? Because I trust Dr. Tyson. However, Dr. Tyson is human, and fully capable of mistakes. I am equally human, and equally capable of mistakes. I still trust Dr. Tyson, because I don't believe his errant comment to have been malicious or intentionally misleading. However, I will fact check anything that I repeat, henceforth.

This type of trust that humans place in those that excel is critical to my wondering about things. I place my trust in the scientific community for information about the universe around us. Many of my fellow agnostics and atheists do the same. Religious believers place their trust in religious leaders, clergy, and ancient manuscripts for information about the universe around us. While I cannot (due to lack of complete knowledge) outrightly deny the possibility of a deity capable of "creation," it seems far less likely to me than physical forces having brought about conditions required for the formation of the first protein. On such a wondrous planet as ours, it seems strange to me that so many discoveries being made, daily, would not absolutely demolish the foundations of some of the more ridiculous religious claims, and begin uniting people under a single banner of "humanity." Complicated and many are the social, psychological, geographical, and "spiritual" reasons for this, but I can't help but marvel at the things that keep people bound, against all odds and in the face of clear facts to the contrary of held beliefs.

With that stated, I wonder the following, and I am curious what people's thoughts might be on this question:

What would this world be like, if humanity had been "enlightened" enough to unite as one people, and built one single culture under the banner of science and industry, rather than having spawned religions around the world? How much more advanced would our society have been, if religion had never held political power, and we had discarded all of the ancient tales and superstitions in favor of advancing HUMANITY, as our ultimate ideal, rather than fairy tales and supernatural monster stories?

Thoughts?

I think you have one foot in the grave and the other on thin ice melting over the fire of Hell, and you are as good as dead as the sun sets and the ice melts. Those are my thoughts.
ChristianPunk
Posts: 1,710
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9/23/2014 6:36:55 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/23/2014 6:18:01 PM, LifeMeansGodIsGood wrote:
At 9/23/2014 9:09:53 AM, ThinkFirst wrote:
Occasionally, I let my mind wander into the realm of daydreaming fantasy, and wonder what this world might have been like had religion never taken such a foothold, in this world... If the Arabic world had never been shut down by "holy crusades" on one side, and the Mongol Horde, on the other, to what heights might they have soared?

I recently quoted a falsehood, spoken by Dr. Neil DeGrasse Tyson. He had stated that the reason for the decline in Arabic scientific endeavor was the condemnation of the manipulation of numbers by Al-Ghazali. This was inaccurate, but I repeated it. Why? Because I trust Dr. Tyson. However, Dr. Tyson is human, and fully capable of mistakes. I am equally human, and equally capable of mistakes. I still trust Dr. Tyson, because I don't believe his errant comment to have been malicious or intentionally misleading. However, I will fact check anything that I repeat, henceforth.

This type of trust that humans place in those that excel is critical to my wondering about things. I place my trust in the scientific community for information about the universe around us. Many of my fellow agnostics and atheists do the same. Religious believers place their trust in religious leaders, clergy, and ancient manuscripts for information about the universe around us. While I cannot (due to lack of complete knowledge) outrightly deny the possibility of a deity capable of "creation," it seems far less likely to me than physical forces having brought about conditions required for the formation of the first protein. On such a wondrous planet as ours, it seems strange to me that so many discoveries being made, daily, would not absolutely demolish the foundations of some of the more ridiculous religious claims, and begin uniting people under a single banner of "humanity." Complicated and many are the social, psychological, geographical, and "spiritual" reasons for this, but I can't help but marvel at the things that keep people bound, against all odds and in the face of clear facts to the contrary of held beliefs.

With that stated, I wonder the following, and I am curious what people's thoughts might be on this question:

What would this world be like, if humanity had been "enlightened" enough to unite as one people, and built one single culture under the banner of science and industry, rather than having spawned religions around the world? How much more advanced would our society have been, if religion had never held political power, and we had discarded all of the ancient tales and superstitions in favor of advancing HUMANITY, as our ultimate ideal, rather than fairy tales and supernatural monster stories?

Thoughts?

I think you have one foot in the grave and the other on thin ice melting over the fire of Hell, and you are as good as dead as the sun sets and the ice melts. Those are my thoughts.

Really dude? Why you gotta say things like that? You obviously want people to stay atheists.
Envisage
Posts: 3,646
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9/23/2014 6:49:31 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/23/2014 9:09:53 AM, ThinkFirst wrote:
Occasionally, I let my mind wander into the realm of daydreaming fantasy, and wonder what this world might have been like had religion never taken such a foothold, in this world... If the Arabic world had never been shut down by "holy crusades" on one side, and the Mongol Horde, on the other, to what heights might they have soared?

I recently quoted a falsehood, spoken by Dr. Neil DeGrasse Tyson. He had stated that the reason for the decline in Arabic scientific endeavor was the condemnation of the manipulation of numbers by Al-Ghazali. This was inaccurate, but I repeated it. Why? Because I trust Dr. Tyson. However, Dr. Tyson is human, and fully capable of mistakes. I am equally human, and equally capable of mistakes. I still trust Dr. Tyson, because I don't believe his errant comment to have been malicious or intentionally misleading. However, I will fact check anything that I repeat, henceforth.

This type of trust that humans place in those that excel is critical to my wondering about things. I place my trust in the scientific community for information about the universe around us. Many of my fellow agnostics and atheists do the same. Religious believers place their trust in religious leaders, clergy, and ancient manuscripts for information about the universe around us. While I cannot (due to lack of complete knowledge) outrightly deny the possibility of a deity capable of "creation," it seems far less likely to me than physical forces having brought about conditions required for the formation of the first protein. On such a wondrous planet as ours, it seems strange to me that so many discoveries being made, daily, would not absolutely demolish the foundations of some of the more ridiculous religious claims, and begin uniting people under a single banner of "humanity." Complicated and many are the social, psychological, geographical, and "spiritual" reasons for this, but I can't help but marvel at the things that keep people bound, against all odds and in the face of clear facts to the contrary of held beliefs.

With that stated, I wonder the following, and I am curious what people's thoughts might be on this question:

What would this world be like, if humanity had been "enlightened" enough to unite as one people, and built one single culture under the banner of science and industry, rather than having spawned religions around the world? How much more advanced would our society have been, if religion had never held political power, and we had discarded all of the ancient tales and superstitions in favor of advancing HUMANITY, as our ultimate ideal, rather than fairy tales and supernatural monster stories?

Thoughts?

*scratches head*

*walks away*
ThinkFirst
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9/23/2014 6:52:33 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/23/2014 2:05:54 PM, RoderickSpode wrote:

I think the founding fathers had a similar idea....but at the same considerably different. Religion obviously can have a negative connotation even among, say, Christians. The Sadducees and Pharisees would be a good example. What a number of the founding fathers seemed to believe was that religion (or at least in the negative connotation) could be eliminated, and men could still be guided by the Creator. That men could be divinely guided in their decisions....including political. And if the Creator is doing the guiding, the results would inevitably be better than being guided by a theocratic dictator overseeing government (including clergymen). But there idea of this exclusion of religion did not mean removal of things we associate with religion like churches, and even God. I think that in the fantasy you mentioned, things like churches and even God would be out of the picture.

That's a pretty interesting take on the founding fathers, and one I've not heard a theist relate, before. I've always been under the impression that the FF were more deistic, and some even despised and mistrusted the clergy. Mistrusting the clergy does not necessitate, however, renouncing faith. They very well may have had faith. I do know that the separation of church and state (Jefferson) was the best proposal they ever had.

Similar to Christians like myself, you recognize that there's a problem in the world. Things are not as they should be. However, I don't think the idea of an enlightened united people is possible. To use the phrase one bad apple spoils the bunch, or the Biblical phrase A little leaven leavens the whole lump, there's no way to control the many plagues of mankind like jealousy, pride, hunger for power, etc. We can't control human thought. One person might want peace and harmony, and another might want strife. Removing religion out of the picture is not going to eliminate any of those bad apples who's influence and actions spread like poison.

I agree that it is highly unlikely that the entire human race would ever "come together as one," unless the entire planet was ever threatened, as a whole. However, religion having taken root rather than the awesome center of knowledge and scientific endeavor is, in my opinion, largely responsible for the intellectual stunting of that which man could be, today, had we gone the other way...

As far as science and the evolution verses creationism debate, I think there's a misconception in regards to the Christian's or theist's view of evolution. I can't speak for all Christians and theists, but I don't think generally the issue we take against macro-evolution is because we just don't like the idea of it, like having ancestors who were monkeys or common to monkeys. If God designed life that way, it wouldn't bother me one bit. If I was an atheist, I'm sure I wouldn't be bothered.The idea of being evolved could be quite flattering.

If any deity ever "revealed themselves" to me, my entire existence would change, and I would have a completely different view of the universe. I don't see, however, that this will ever happen. Since I don't believe in the existence of any deity ever asserted by humans, I doubt it will ever be one of them. If there is a deity, I believe it will be something completely different from anything ever imagined by humanity, before.

But when someone comes into a belief in Jesus Christ, they have to deal with the issue and how the reality of Christ relates to our existence. If Jesus Christ revealed Himself to you, you'd have to deal with the scientific implication of our existence. You might have to reconsider your position as uncomfortable as that might be, including a young universe/earth. You might have to consider why the earliest known historic civilizations fall within a young earth time period. You might have to consider the short life span of comets. You might have to consider what some fully educated scientists, who know far more than your average individual who are creationists have to say, even though they are in a considerable minority.

The "reality of christ" is not something that actually "computes," with me. I would reconsider my position, if ever I was given cause. Those scientists you described are in a "considerable minority" for a reason...

For the sake of argument, if Jesus Christ revealed himself to you, assuming He can do so in such a way that you know it's not an illusion or hallucination (like your new neighbor can easily do without any effort), would that cause you to reconsider your position towards science?

I have to admit that it would, indeed, make me reconsider my position. The reality of the matter is that the rational person is COMPELLED to reconsider any position for which they find contrary evidence. That's just reason.

Like it or not, people are going to continue to ponder, consider, and search for God in the world as we know it today. And many of them will embrace a theistic religion. And history has proven so far that it's unpreventable. And this will also lead to a continued conflict not only between theism and atheism, but creation and evolution.

People that wish to find a deity are welcome to it. I would rather find that which is true. I don't accept the vision of other humans of how this universe came about. I'm quite content, for now, to state quite frankly... "I don't know." We may never know. I'm not going to simply accept that which is convenient, right now.
"Never attribute to villainy that which can be adequately explained by stupidity"
-----
"Men rarely if ever dream up a god superior to themselves. Most gods have the manners and morals of a spoiled child. "

-- Robert A Heinlein
ThinkFirst
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9/23/2014 6:58:30 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/23/2014 4:43:49 PM, sovereigngracereigns wrote:
At 9/23/2014 9:09:53 AM, ThinkFirst wrote:
Occasionally, I let my mind wander into the realm of daydreaming fantasy, and wonder what this world might have been like had religion never taken such a foothold, in this world... If the Arabic world had never been shut down by "holy crusades" on one side, and the Mongol Horde, on the other, to what heights might they have soared?

I recently quoted a falsehood, spoken by Dr. Neil DeGrasse Tyson. He had stated that the reason for the decline in Arabic scientific endeavor was the condemnation of the manipulation of numbers by Al-Ghazali. This was inaccurate, but I repeated it. Why? Because I trust Dr. Tyson. However, Dr. Tyson is human, and fully capable of mistakes. I am equally human, and equally capable of mistakes. I still trust Dr. Tyson, because I don't believe his errant comment to have been malicious or intentionally misleading. However, I will fact check anything that I repeat, henceforth.

This type of trust that humans place in those that excel is critical to my wondering about things. I place my trust in the scientific community for information about the universe around us. Many of my fellow agnostics and atheists do the same. Religious believers place their trust in religious leaders, clergy, and ancient manuscripts for information about the universe around us. While I cannot (due to lack of complete knowledge) outrightly deny the possibility of a deity capable of "creation," it seems far less likely to me than physical forces having brought about conditions required for the formation of the first protein. On such a wondrous planet as ours, it seems strange to me that so many discoveries being made, daily, would not absolutely demolish the foundations of some of the more ridiculous religious claims, and begin uniting people under a single banner of "humanity." Complicated and many are the social, psychological, geographical, and "spiritual" reasons for this, but I can't help but marvel at the things that keep people bound, against all odds and in the face of clear facts to the contrary of held beliefs.

With that stated, I wonder the following, and I am curious what people's thoughts might be on this question:

What would this world be like, if humanity had been "enlightened" enough to unite as one people, and built one single culture under the banner of science and industry, rather than having spawned religions around the world? How much more advanced would our society have been, if religion had never held political power, and we had discarded all of the ancient tales and superstitions in favor of advancing HUMANITY, as our ultimate ideal, rather than fairy tales and supernatural monster stories?

Thoughts?

We tried that once.

It was called "The Tower of Babel."

I read that fairy tale, too. I didn't believe it, even as a child.
"Never attribute to villainy that which can be adequately explained by stupidity"
-----
"Men rarely if ever dream up a god superior to themselves. Most gods have the manners and morals of a spoiled child. "

-- Robert A Heinlein
ThinkFirst
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9/23/2014 7:02:53 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/23/2014 5:54:57 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
At 9/23/2014 9:09:53 AM, ThinkFirst wrote:
Occasionally, I let my mind wander into the realm of daydreaming fantasy, and wonder what this world might have been like had religion never taken such a foothold, in this world... If the Arabic world had never been shut down by "holy crusades" on one side, and the Mongol Horde, on the other, to what heights might they have soared?

I recently quoted a falsehood, spoken by Dr. Neil DeGrasse Tyson. He had stated that the reason for the decline in Arabic scientific endeavor was the condemnation of the manipulation of numbers by Al-Ghazali. This was inaccurate, but I repeated it. Why? Because I trust Dr. Tyson. However, Dr. Tyson is human, and fully capable of mistakes. I am equally human, and equally capable of mistakes. I still trust Dr. Tyson, because I don't believe his errant comment to have been malicious or intentionally misleading. However, I will fact check anything that I repeat, henceforth.

This type of trust that humans place in those that excel is critical to my wondering about things. I place my trust in the scientific community for information about the universe around us. Many of my fellow agnostics and atheists do the same. Religious believers place their trust in religious leaders, clergy, and ancient manuscripts for information about the universe around us. While I cannot (due to lack of complete knowledge) outrightly deny the possibility of a deity capable of "creation," it seems far less likely to me than physical forces having brought about conditions required for the formation of the first protein. On such a wondrous planet as ours, it seems strange to me that so many discoveries being made, daily, would not absolutely demolish the foundations of some of the more ridiculous religious claims, and begin uniting people under a single banner of "humanity." Complicated and many are the social, psychological, geographical, and "spiritual" reasons for this, but I can't help but marvel at the things that keep people bound, against all odds and in the face of clear facts to the contrary of held beliefs.

With that stated, I wonder the following, and I am curious what people's thoughts might be on this question:

What would this world be like, if humanity had been "enlightened" enough to unite as one people, and built one single culture under the banner of science and industry, rather than having spawned religions around the world? How much more advanced would our society have been, if religion had never held political power, and we had discarded all of the ancient tales and superstitions in favor of advancing HUMANITY, as our ultimate ideal, rather than fairy tales and supernatural monster stories?

Thoughts?

I got a question.

While people do things we can't understand or agree on, wouldn't it be better that they can have their religion and beliefs, but things like creation, ID, and religion stays out of the public education system? I'm a Christian, but i'm gonna rely on scientists over pastors when it comes to issues about science. Things like morality, meaning of life and afterlife sounds like philosophy/religion to me and that it should be more individual. I wouldn't tell my kids what to believe and what tell em, creationism is true. I'd tell them to be curious and ask questions like Socrates. I'd tell them to explore for answers.

I can say that. You seem to be pretty comfortable with it. Religious leaders, however, feel compelled to shover their beliefs into public education. Morality and all "philosophy" should be taught at home, until age of majority. After that, it's up to the individual. Religion has NO place in education. Education is for FACTS -- not faith.

So, would you be comftorbale with people expressing their religion in churches and their homes, while letting science teachers do their things?

I would absolutely be comfortable with that. They are the ones that are not comfortable with that. It is the religious that feel the need/right to publicly proselytize. They will not keep their ignorant noses out of public education.
"Never attribute to villainy that which can be adequately explained by stupidity"
-----
"Men rarely if ever dream up a god superior to themselves. Most gods have the manners and morals of a spoiled child. "

-- Robert A Heinlein
ThinkFirst
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9/23/2014 7:04:54 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/23/2014 6:18:01 PM, LifeMeansGodIsGood wrote:
At 9/23/2014 9:09:53 AM, ThinkFirst wrote:
Occasionally, I let my mind wander into the realm of daydreaming fantasy, and wonder what this world might have been like had religion never taken such a foothold, in this world... If the Arabic world had never been shut down by "holy crusades" on one side, and the Mongol Horde, on the other, to what heights might they have soared?

I recently quoted a falsehood, spoken by Dr. Neil DeGrasse Tyson. He had stated that the reason for the decline in Arabic scientific endeavor was the condemnation of the manipulation of numbers by Al-Ghazali. This was inaccurate, but I repeated it. Why? Because I trust Dr. Tyson. However, Dr. Tyson is human, and fully capable of mistakes. I am equally human, and equally capable of mistakes. I still trust Dr. Tyson, because I don't believe his errant comment to have been malicious or intentionally misleading. However, I will fact check anything that I repeat, henceforth.

This type of trust that humans place in those that excel is critical to my wondering about things. I place my trust in the scientific community for information about the universe around us. Many of my fellow agnostics and atheists do the same. Religious believers place their trust in religious leaders, clergy, and ancient manuscripts for information about the universe around us. While I cannot (due to lack of complete knowledge) outrightly deny the possibility of a deity capable of "creation," it seems far less likely to me than physical forces having brought about conditions required for the formation of the first protein. On such a wondrous planet as ours, it seems strange to me that so many discoveries being made, daily, would not absolutely demolish the foundations of some of the more ridiculous religious claims, and begin uniting people under a single banner of "humanity." Complicated and many are the social, psychological, geographical, and "spiritual" reasons for this, but I can't help but marvel at the things that keep people bound, against all odds and in the face of clear facts to the contrary of held beliefs.

With that stated, I wonder the following, and I am curious what people's thoughts might be on this question:

What would this world be like, if humanity had been "enlightened" enough to unite as one people, and built one single culture under the banner of science and industry, rather than having spawned religions around the world? How much more advanced would our society have been, if religion had never held political power, and we had discarded all of the ancient tales and superstitions in favor of advancing HUMANITY, as our ultimate ideal, rather than fairy tales and supernatural monster stories?

Thoughts?

I think you have one foot in the grave and the other on thin ice melting over the fire of Hell, and you are as good as dead as the sun sets and the ice melts. Those are my thoughts.

You believe. You don't think. Your "hell" does not exist. Neither does your deity. Those are not "thoughts." Those are assertions, based on ignorant ancient manuscripts that you have accepted as truth. They are your to believe. Have at it.
"Never attribute to villainy that which can be adequately explained by stupidity"
-----
"Men rarely if ever dream up a god superior to themselves. Most gods have the manners and morals of a spoiled child. "

-- Robert A Heinlein
ThinkFirst
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9/23/2014 7:06:05 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/23/2014 6:49:31 PM, Envisage wrote:
At 9/23/2014 9:09:53 AM, ThinkFirst wrote:
Occasionally, I let my mind wander into the realm of daydreaming fantasy, and wonder what this world might have been like had religion never taken such a foothold, in this world... If the Arabic world had never been shut down by "holy crusades" on one side, and the Mongol Horde, on the other, to what heights might they have soared?

I recently quoted a falsehood, spoken by Dr. Neil DeGrasse Tyson. He had stated that the reason for the decline in Arabic scientific endeavor was the condemnation of the manipulation of numbers by Al-Ghazali. This was inaccurate, but I repeated it. Why? Because I trust Dr. Tyson. However, Dr. Tyson is human, and fully capable of mistakes. I am equally human, and equally capable of mistakes. I still trust Dr. Tyson, because I don't believe his errant comment to have been malicious or intentionally misleading. However, I will fact check anything that I repeat, henceforth.

This type of trust that humans place in those that excel is critical to my wondering about things. I place my trust in the scientific community for information about the universe around us. Many of my fellow agnostics and atheists do the same. Religious believers place their trust in religious leaders, clergy, and ancient manuscripts for information about the universe around us. While I cannot (due to lack of complete knowledge) outrightly deny the possibility of a deity capable of "creation," it seems far less likely to me than physical forces having brought about conditions required for the formation of the first protein. On such a wondrous planet as ours, it seems strange to me that so many discoveries being made, daily, would not absolutely demolish the foundations of some of the more ridiculous religious claims, and begin uniting people under a single banner of "humanity." Complicated and many are the social, psychological, geographical, and "spiritual" reasons for this, but I can't help but marvel at the things that keep people bound, against all odds and in the face of clear facts to the contrary of held beliefs.

With that stated, I wonder the following, and I am curious what people's thoughts might be on this question:

What would this world be like, if humanity had been "enlightened" enough to unite as one people, and built one single culture under the banner of science and industry, rather than having spawned religions around the world? How much more advanced would our society have been, if religion had never held political power, and we had discarded all of the ancient tales and superstitions in favor of advancing HUMANITY, as our ultimate ideal, rather than fairy tales and supernatural monster stories?

Thoughts?

*scratches head*

*walks away*

*Casts disappointed look*
"Never attribute to villainy that which can be adequately explained by stupidity"
-----
"Men rarely if ever dream up a god superior to themselves. Most gods have the manners and morals of a spoiled child. "

-- Robert A Heinlein
LifeMeansGodIsGood
Posts: 2,744
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9/23/2014 7:18:58 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
And you are not making blind assertions? You have seen the side of eternity beyond the end of your time with the breath of life in you? You know God is not there, and you know Hell is not real? Since you know these things, and are not making blind assertions about things you do not know, you can prove what you are saying, right? When are you going to prove God is not there? When are you going to prove Hell is not real?

Do you want proof that Hell is real? You are going to get that proof, if you believe it before you are in it or if you believe it before you are in it and you get saved from it before it's too late. You and your blind assertions.

Jesus said Hell is where the worm never dies and the fire is never quenched and there will be weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth. I'll trust Him. You can trust yourself. You sure have a lot of hot air spitting out your assertions as if you know things you do not know. All you really know is that you are as good as dead. One day you will know Hell is real. I know it now. I don't have to be in it to know it. I know you are a proud brave fool. I can make that assertion because you prove it with your mouth. The assertions you make are the assertions of a person who does not know what he is talking about. Sorry. You can go on ahead and try to prove Hell is not real if you want to. What a fool....man, sorry. See ya.
LifeMeansGodIsGood
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9/23/2014 7:28:04 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/23/2014 7:04:54 PM, ThinkFirst wrote:
At 9/23/2014 6:18:01 PM, LifeMeansGodIsGood wrote:
At 9/23/2014 9:09:53 AM, ThinkFirst wrote:
Occasionally, I let my mind wander into the realm of daydreaming fantasy, and wonder what this world might have been like had religion never taken such a foothold, in this world... If the Arabic world had never been shut down by "holy crusades" on one side, and the Mongol Horde, on the other, to what heights might they have soared?

I recently quoted a falsehood, spoken by Dr. Neil DeGrasse Tyson. He had stated that the reason for the decline in Arabic scientific endeavor was the condemnation of the manipulation of numbers by Al-Ghazali. This was inaccurate, but I repeated it. Why? Because I trust Dr. Tyson. However, Dr. Tyson is human, and fully capable of mistakes. I am equally human, and equally capable of mistakes. I still trust Dr. Tyson, because I don't believe his errant comment to have been malicious or intentionally misleading. However, I will fact check anything that I repeat, henceforth.

This type of trust that humans place in those that excel is critical to my wondering about things. I place my trust in the scientific community for information about the universe around us. Many of my fellow agnostics and atheists do the same. Religious believers place their trust in religious leaders, clergy, and ancient manuscripts for information about the universe around us. While I cannot (due to lack of complete knowledge) outrightly deny the possibility of a deity capable of "creation," it seems far less likely to me than physical forces having brought about conditions required for the formation of the first protein. On such a wondrous planet as ours, it seems strange to me that so many discoveries being made, daily, would not absolutely demolish the foundations of some of the more ridiculous religious claims, and begin uniting people under a single banner of "humanity." Complicated and many are the social, psychological, geographical, and "spiritual" reasons for this, but I can't help but marvel at the things that keep people bound, against all odds and in the face of clear facts to the contrary of held beliefs.

With that stated, I wonder the following, and I am curious what people's thoughts might be on this question:

What would this world be like, if humanity had been "enlightened" enough to unite as one people, and built one single culture under the banner of science and industry, rather than having spawned religions around the world? How much more advanced would our society have been, if religion had never held political power, and we had discarded all of the ancient tales and superstitions in favor of advancing HUMANITY, as our ultimate ideal, rather than fairy tales and supernatural monster stories?

Thoughts?

I think you have one foot in the grave and the other on thin ice melting over the fire of Hell, and you are as good as dead as the sun sets and the ice melts. Those are my thoughts.

You believe. You don't think. Your "hell" does not exist. Neither does your deity. Those are not "thoughts." Those are assertions, based on ignorant ancient manuscripts that you have accepted as truth. They are your to believe. Have at it.

It's not my Hell. God made it for the devil and his angels. How do you know it does not exist? Simply because you have not seen it, you think you know it does not exist? How do you know God does not exist? He is your God, He is God of all. You are the one who is claiming to know things you do not know. You cannot prove anything you are saying. When are you going to prove Hell is not real? How are you going to prove Hell is not real? Who are you going to prove it to? Are you going to prove it to yourself, or do you think you know it to be true without proof? I cannot prove to you that Hell is real if you do not want to believe it is real. Not believing it is real will not keep you from being cast away there forever. If you say there is only one way to really prove these things, then you will get your proof that way, your own way. Who are you trying to fool? You don't fool me. I know that you do not know what you are talking about. You are a big bag of hot air spouting blind assertions you cannot prove and do not know to be true. You hope what you are saying is true because if you are wrong, you know you are doomed to eternal damnation in imprisonment if Hell to be tormented throughout eternity. You sure are proud and brave, and you sure put on a show of being strong. You don't fool me. You are only fooling yourself.
LogicalLunatic
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9/23/2014 7:35:22 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/23/2014 5:42:14 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
At 9/23/2014 4:43:49 PM, sovereigngracereigns wrote:
At 9/23/2014 9:09:53 AM, ThinkFirst wrote:
Occasionally, I let my mind wander into the realm of daydreaming fantasy, and wonder what this world might have been like had religion never taken such a foothold, in this world... If the Arabic world had never been shut down by "holy crusades" on one side, and the Mongol Horde, on the other, to what heights might they have soared?

I recently quoted a falsehood, spoken by Dr. Neil DeGrasse Tyson. He had stated that the reason for the decline in Arabic scientific endeavor was the condemnation of the manipulation of numbers by Al-Ghazali. This was inaccurate, but I repeated it. Why? Because I trust Dr. Tyson. However, Dr. Tyson is human, and fully capable of mistakes. I am equally human, and equally capable of mistakes. I still trust Dr. Tyson, because I don't believe his errant comment to have been malicious or intentionally misleading. However, I will fact check anything that I repeat, henceforth.

This type of trust that humans place in those that excel is critical to my wondering about things. I place my trust in the scientific community for information about the universe around us. Many of my fellow agnostics and atheists do the same. Religious believers place their trust in religious leaders, clergy, and ancient manuscripts for information about the universe around us. While I cannot (due to lack of complete knowledge) outrightly deny the possibility of a deity capable of "creation," it seems far less likely to me than physical forces having brought about conditions required for the formation of the first protein. On such a wondrous planet as ours, it seems strange to me that so many discoveries being made, daily, would not absolutely demolish the foundations of some of the more ridiculous religious claims, and begin uniting people under a single banner of "humanity." Complicated and many are the social, psychological, geographical, and "spiritual" reasons for this, but I can't help but marvel at the things that keep people bound, against all odds and in the face of clear facts to the contrary of held beliefs.

With that stated, I wonder the following, and I am curious what people's thoughts might be on this question:

What would this world be like, if humanity had been "enlightened" enough to unite as one people, and built one single culture under the banner of science and industry, rather than having spawned religions around the world? How much more advanced would our society have been, if religion had never held political power, and we had discarded all of the ancient tales and superstitions in favor of advancing HUMANITY, as our ultimate ideal, rather than fairy tales and supernatural monster stories?

Thoughts?

We tried that once.

It was called "The Tower of Babel."

they came together and built a tower because they saw themselves equal to God. Different thing here.

The Tower of Babel was a temple to an idea. The idea that man, without God, through science and the ingenuity of man, can become perfect or develop a perfect world, perhaps even becoming god or creating a (false) god which is a government or a system. This idea was present millennia ago during the Tower of Babel and it is the religion of the well educated of humanity today, though I am aware that this is actually an irreligion.
The Judgment on Babylon, as foretold in the Book of Revelation, is a judgment on this system or idea; it is the passing of Judgment upon man's replacement for God.
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ThinkFirst
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9/23/2014 10:54:39 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/23/2014 7:18:58 PM, LifeMeansGodIsGood wrote:
And you are not making blind assertions? You have seen the side of eternity beyond the end of your time with the breath of life in you?
No, I'm not making blind assertions. I have not seen anything beyond this life. No one has.

You know God is not there, and you know Hell is not real?

I don't know that there is NO deity, but I know that none man has ever described in any document is that deity.

Since you know these things, and are not making blind assertions about things you do not know, you can prove what you are saying, right?

I needn't "prove" anything. I am only asking a question. What would this world be like, if religion had not taken control, and science had?

When are you going to prove God is not there? When are you going to prove Hell is not real?

I needn't prove the nonexistence of a deity for which no evidence has ever been presented. There is no hell.

Do you want proof that Hell is real? You are going to get that proof, if you believe it before you are in it or if you believe it before you are in it and you get saved from it before it's too late. You and your blind assertions.

My blind assertions? Think about the ones you just made...

Jesus said Hell is where the worm never dies and the fire is never quenched and there will be weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth. I'll trust Him. You can trust yourself.

There is no evidence that any jesus ever said anything. Trust whomever you wish. Stick with your faith. I'll stick with knowledge.

You sure have a lot of hot air spitting out your assertions as if you know things you do not know. All you really know is that you are as good as dead.

Eventually, yes. I'll be dead.

One day you will know Hell is real.

I seriously doubt that.

I know it now.

No, you don't. You believe it, but you don't know it. Knowledge requires proof. You have no knowledge of hell. You have only beleief.

I don't have to be in it to know it. I know you are a proud brave fool. I can make that assertion because you prove it with your mouth.

Conviction can be such an ugly thing when held by a person that doesn't even fully believe themselves.

The assertions you make are the assertions of a person who does not know what he is talking about. Sorry.

Yes, you are sorry.

You can go on ahead and try to prove Hell is not real if you want to. What a fool....man, sorry. See ya.

I'm not trying to prove hell isn't real. I don't believe it. What you wish to believe is up to you.
"Never attribute to villainy that which can be adequately explained by stupidity"
-----
"Men rarely if ever dream up a god superior to themselves. Most gods have the manners and morals of a spoiled child. "

-- Robert A Heinlein
ThinkFirst
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9/23/2014 11:00:18 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/23/2014 7:28:04 PM, LifeMeansGodIsGood wrote:
At 9/23/2014 7:04:54 PM, ThinkFirst wrote:
At 9/23/2014 6:18:01 PM, LifeMeansGodIsGood wrote:
At 9/23/2014 9:09:53 AM, ThinkFirst wrote:
Occasionally, I let my mind wander into the realm of daydreaming fantasy, and wonder what this world might have been like had religion never taken such a foothold, in this world... If the Arabic world had never been shut down by "holy crusades" on one side, and the Mongol Horde, on the other, to what heights might they have soared?

I recently quoted a falsehood, spoken by Dr. Neil DeGrasse Tyson. He had stated that the reason for the decline in Arabic scientific endeavor was the condemnation of the manipulation of numbers by Al-Ghazali. This was inaccurate, but I repeated it. Why? Because I trust Dr. Tyson. However, Dr. Tyson is human, and fully capable of mistakes. I am equally human, and equally capable of mistakes. I still trust Dr. Tyson, because I don't believe his errant comment to have been malicious or intentionally misleading. However, I will fact check anything that I repeat, henceforth.

This type of trust that humans place in those that excel is critical to my wondering about things. I place my trust in the scientific community for information about the universe around us. Many of my fellow agnostics and atheists do the same. Religious believers place their trust in religious leaders, clergy, and ancient manuscripts for information about the universe around us. While I cannot (due to lack of complete knowledge) outrightly deny the possibility of a deity capable of "creation," it seems far less likely to me than physical forces having brought about conditions required for the formation of the first protein. On such a wondrous planet as ours, it seems strange to me that so many discoveries being made, daily, would not absolutely demolish the foundations of some of the more ridiculous religious claims, and begin uniting people under a single banner of "humanity." Complicated and many are the social, psychological, geographical, and "spiritual" reasons for this, but I can't help but marvel at the things that keep people bound, against all odds and in the face of clear facts to the contrary of held beliefs.

With that stated, I wonder the following, and I am curious what people's thoughts might be on this question:

What would this world be like, if humanity had been "enlightened" enough to unite as one people, and built one single culture under the banner of science and industry, rather than having spawned religions around the world? How much more advanced would our society have been, if religion had never held political power, and we had discarded all of the ancient tales and superstitions in favor of advancing HUMANITY, as our ultimate ideal, rather than fairy tales and supernatural monster stories?

Thoughts?

I think you have one foot in the grave and the other on thin ice melting over the fire of Hell, and you are as good as dead as the sun sets and the ice melts. Those are my thoughts.

You believe. You don't think. Your "hell" does not exist. Neither does your deity. Those are not "thoughts." Those are assertions, based on ignorant ancient manuscripts that you have accepted as truth. They are your to believe. Have at it.

It's not my Hell. God made it for the devil and his angels. How do you know it does not exist? Simply because you have not seen it, you think you know it does not exist? How do you know God does not exist? He is your God, He is God of all. You are the one who is claiming to know things you do not know. You cannot prove anything you are saying. When are you going to prove Hell is not real? How are you going to prove Hell is not real? Who are you going to prove it to? Are you going to prove it to yourself, or do you think you know it to be true without proof? I cannot prove to you that Hell is real if you do not want to believe it is real. Not believing it is real will not keep you from being cast away there forever. If you say there is only one way to really prove these things, then you will get your proof that way, your own way. Who are you trying to fool? You don't fool me. I know that you do not know what you are talking about. You are a big bag of hot air spouting blind assertions you cannot prove and do not know to be true. You hope what you are saying is true because if you are wrong, you know you are doomed to eternal damnation in imprisonment if Hell to be tormented throughout eternity. You sure are proud and brave, and you sure put on a show of being strong. You don't fool me. You are only fooling yourself.

This is nothing more than an emotionally charged, delusional rant.
"Never attribute to villainy that which can be adequately explained by stupidity"
-----
"Men rarely if ever dream up a god superior to themselves. Most gods have the manners and morals of a spoiled child. "

-- Robert A Heinlein
ThinkFirst
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9/24/2014 6:26:38 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/23/2014 7:35:22 PM, LogicalLunatic wrote:
At 9/23/2014 5:42:14 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
At 9/23/2014 4:43:49 PM, sovereigngracereigns wrote:
At 9/23/2014 9:09:53 AM, ThinkFirst wrote:
Occasionally, I let my mind wander into the realm of daydreaming fantasy, and wonder what this world might have been like had religion never taken such a foothold, in this world... If the Arabic world had never been shut down by "holy crusades" on one side, and the Mongol Horde, on the other, to what heights might they have soared?

I recently quoted a falsehood, spoken by Dr. Neil DeGrasse Tyson. He had stated that the reason for the decline in Arabic scientific endeavor was the condemnation of the manipulation of numbers by Al-Ghazali. This was inaccurate, but I repeated it. Why? Because I trust Dr. Tyson. However, Dr. Tyson is human, and fully capable of mistakes. I am equally human, and equally capable of mistakes. I still trust Dr. Tyson, because I don't believe his errant comment to have been malicious or intentionally misleading. However, I will fact check anything that I repeat, henceforth.

This type of trust that humans place in those that excel is critical to my wondering about things. I place my trust in the scientific community for information about the universe around us. Many of my fellow agnostics and atheists do the same. Religious believers place their trust in religious leaders, clergy, and ancient manuscripts for information about the universe around us. While I cannot (due to lack of complete knowledge) outrightly deny the possibility of a deity capable of "creation," it seems far less likely to me than physical forces having brought about conditions required for the formation of the first protein. On such a wondrous planet as ours, it seems strange to me that so many discoveries being made, daily, would not absolutely demolish the foundations of some of the more ridiculous religious claims, and begin uniting people under a single banner of "humanity." Complicated and many are the social, psychological, geographical, and "spiritual" reasons for this, but I can't help but marvel at the things that keep people bound, against all odds and in the face of clear facts to the contrary of held beliefs.

With that stated, I wonder the following, and I am curious what people's thoughts might be on this question:

What would this world be like, if humanity had been "enlightened" enough to unite as one people, and built one single culture under the banner of science and industry, rather than having spawned religions around the world? How much more advanced would our society have been, if religion had never held political power, and we had discarded all of the ancient tales and superstitions in favor of advancing HUMANITY, as our ultimate ideal, rather than fairy tales and supernatural monster stories?

Thoughts?

We tried that once.

It was called "The Tower of Babel."

they came together and built a tower because they saw themselves equal to God. Different thing here.

The Tower of Babel was a temple to an idea. The idea that man, without God, through science and the ingenuity of man, can become perfect or develop a perfect world, perhaps even becoming god or creating a (false) god which is a government or a system. This idea was present millennia ago during the Tower of Babel and it is the religion of the well educated of humanity today, though I am aware that this is actually an irreligion.
The Judgment on Babylon, as foretold in the Book of Revelation, is a judgment on this system or idea; it is the passing of Judgment upon man's replacement for God.

There was absolutely NOTHING about "science and ingenuity" in the biblical story. It was about unity, and accomplishment. The deity in the story didn't want man to unify, apparently...

From Genesis 11:
6 And the Lord said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do.
7 Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech.
8 So the Lord scattered them abroad from thence upon the face of all the earth: and they left off to build the city.

The judgment on Babylon, in "Revelation," is for being a whore... Babylon, representing false religion, has prostitued herself for riches and glory, rejecting her "husband," the christ... I think you might want to read your own holy book a bit more carefully, before you start making erroneous comparisons, here.

Oops... too late.
"Never attribute to villainy that which can be adequately explained by stupidity"
-----
"Men rarely if ever dream up a god superior to themselves. Most gods have the manners and morals of a spoiled child. "

-- Robert A Heinlein
bulproof
Posts: 25,184
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9/24/2014 7:05:20 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/24/2014 6:26:38 AM, ThinkFirst wrote:
At 9/23/2014 7:35:22 PM, LogicalLunatic wrote:
At 9/23/2014 5:42:14 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
At 9/23/2014 4:43:49 PM, sovereigngracereigns wrote:
At 9/23/2014 9:09:53 AM, ThinkFirst wrote:
Occasionally, I let my mind wander into the realm of daydreaming fantasy, and wonder what this world might have been like had religion never taken such a foothold, in this world... If the Arabic world had never been shut down by "holy crusades" on one side, and the Mongol Horde, on the other, to what heights might they have soared?

I recently quoted a falsehood, spoken by Dr. Neil DeGrasse Tyson. He had stated that the reason for the decline in Arabic scientific endeavor was the condemnation of the manipulation of numbers by Al-Ghazali. This was inaccurate, but I repeated it. Why? Because I trust Dr. Tyson. However, Dr. Tyson is human, and fully capable of mistakes. I am equally human, and equally capable of mistakes. I still trust Dr. Tyson, because I don't believe his errant comment to have been malicious or intentionally misleading. However, I will fact check anything that I repeat, henceforth.

This type of trust that humans place in those that excel is critical to my wondering about things. I place my trust in the scientific community for information about the universe around us. Many of my fellow agnostics and atheists do the same. Religious believers place their trust in religious leaders, clergy, and ancient manuscripts for information about the universe around us. While I cannot (due to lack of complete knowledge) outrightly deny the possibility of a deity capable of "creation," it seems far less likely to me than physical forces having brought about conditions required for the formation of the first protein. On such a wondrous planet as ours, it seems strange to me that so many discoveries being made, daily, would not absolutely demolish the foundations of some of the more ridiculous religious claims, and begin uniting people under a single banner of "humanity." Complicated and many are the social, psychological, geographical, and "spiritual" reasons for this, but I can't help but marvel at the things that keep people bound, against all odds and in the face of clear facts to the contrary of held beliefs.

With that stated, I wonder the following, and I am curious what people's thoughts might be on this question:

What would this world be like, if humanity had been "enlightened" enough to unite as one people, and built one single culture under the banner of science and industry, rather than having spawned religions around the world? How much more advanced would our society have been, if religion had never held political power, and we had discarded all of the ancient tales and superstitions in favor of advancing HUMANITY, as our ultimate ideal, rather than fairy tales and supernatural monster stories?

Thoughts?

We tried that once.

It was called "The Tower of Babel."

they came together and built a tower because they saw themselves equal to God. Different thing here.

The Tower of Babel was a temple to an idea. The idea that man, without God, through science and the ingenuity of man, can become perfect or develop a perfect world, perhaps even becoming god or creating a (false) god which is a government or a system. This idea was present millennia ago during the Tower of Babel and it is the religion of the well educated of humanity today, though I am aware that this is actually an irreligion.
The Judgment on Babylon, as foretold in the Book of Revelation, is a judgment on this system or idea; it is the passing of Judgment upon man's replacement for God.

There was absolutely NOTHING about "science and ingenuity" in the biblical story. It was about unity, and accomplishment. The deity in the story didn't want man to unify, apparently...

From Genesis 11:
6 And the Lord said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do.
7 Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech.
8 So the Lord scattered them abroad from thence upon the face of all the earth: and they left off to build the city.

The judgment on Babylon, in "Revelation," is for being a whore... Babylon, representing false religion, has prostitued herself for riches and glory, rejecting her "husband," the christ... I think you might want to read your own holy book a bit more carefully, before you start making erroneous comparisons, here.

Oops... too late.

BTW, who was the "us" in that?
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
ThinkFirst
Posts: 1,391
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9/24/2014 7:20:26 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/24/2014 7:05:20 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 9/24/2014 6:26:38 AM, ThinkFirst wrote:
At 9/23/2014 7:35:22 PM, LogicalLunatic wrote:
At 9/23/2014 5:42:14 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
At 9/23/2014 4:43:49 PM, sovereigngracereigns wrote:
At 9/23/2014 9:09:53 AM, ThinkFirst wrote:
Occasionally, I let my mind wander into the realm of daydreaming fantasy, and wonder what this world might have been like had religion never taken such a foothold, in this world... If the Arabic world had never been shut down by "holy crusades" on one side, and the Mongol Horde, on the other, to what heights might they have soared?

I recently quoted a falsehood, spoken by Dr. Neil DeGrasse Tyson. He had stated that the reason for the decline in Arabic scientific endeavor was the condemnation of the manipulation of numbers by Al-Ghazali. This was inaccurate, but I repeated it. Why? Because I trust Dr. Tyson. However, Dr. Tyson is human, and fully capable of mistakes. I am equally human, and equally capable of mistakes. I still trust Dr. Tyson, because I don't believe his errant comment to have been malicious or intentionally misleading. However, I will fact check anything that I repeat, henceforth.

This type of trust that humans place in those that excel is critical to my wondering about things. I place my trust in the scientific community for information about the universe around us. Many of my fellow agnostics and atheists do the same. Religious believers place their trust in religious leaders, clergy, and ancient manuscripts for information about the universe around us. While I cannot (due to lack of complete knowledge) outrightly deny the possibility of a deity capable of "creation," it seems far less likely to me than physical forces having brought about conditions required for the formation of the first protein. On such a wondrous planet as ours, it seems strange to me that so many discoveries being made, daily, would not absolutely demolish the foundations of some of the more ridiculous religious claims, and begin uniting people under a single banner of "humanity." Complicated and many are the social, psychological, geographical, and "spiritual" reasons for this, but I can't help but marvel at the things that keep people bound, against all odds and in the face of clear facts to the contrary of held beliefs.

With that stated, I wonder the following, and I am curious what people's thoughts might be on this question:

What would this world be like, if humanity had been "enlightened" enough to unite as one people, and built one single culture under the banner of science and industry, rather than having spawned religions around the world? How much more advanced would our society have been, if religion had never held political power, and we had discarded all of the ancient tales and superstitions in favor of advancing HUMANITY, as our ultimate ideal, rather than fairy tales and supernatural monster stories?

Thoughts?

We tried that once.

It was called "The Tower of Babel."

they came together and built a tower because they saw themselves equal to God. Different thing here.

The Tower of Babel was a temple to an idea. The idea that man, without God, through science and the ingenuity of man, can become perfect or develop a perfect world, perhaps even becoming god or creating a (false) god which is a government or a system. This idea was present millennia ago during the Tower of Babel and it is the religion of the well educated of humanity today, though I am aware that this is actually an irreligion.
The Judgment on Babylon, as foretold in the Book of Revelation, is a judgment on this system or idea; it is the passing of Judgment upon man's replacement for God.

There was absolutely NOTHING about "science and ingenuity" in the biblical story. It was about unity, and accomplishment. The deity in the story didn't want man to unify, apparently...

From Genesis 11:
6 And the Lord said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do.
7 Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech.
8 So the Lord scattered them abroad from thence upon the face of all the earth: and they left off to build the city.

The judgment on Babylon, in "Revelation," is for being a whore... Babylon, representing false religion, has prostitued herself for riches and glory, rejecting her "husband," the christ... I think you might want to read your own holy book a bit more carefully, before you start making erroneous comparisons, here.

Oops... too late.

BTW, who was the "us" in that?

Maybe I haven't had enough coffee, yet, but you lost me...
"Never attribute to villainy that which can be adequately explained by stupidity"
-----
"Men rarely if ever dream up a god superior to themselves. Most gods have the manners and morals of a spoiled child. "

-- Robert A Heinlein
bornofgod
Posts: 11,322
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9/24/2014 10:06:11 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/23/2014 9:09:53 AM, ThinkFirst wrote:
Occasionally, I let my mind wander into the realm of daydreaming fantasy, and wonder what this world might have been like had religion never taken such a foothold, in this world... If the Arabic world had never been shut down by "holy crusades" on one side, and the Mongol Horde, on the other, to what heights might they have soared?

I recently quoted a falsehood, spoken by Dr. Neil DeGrasse Tyson. He had stated that the reason for the decline in Arabic scientific endeavor was the condemnation of the manipulation of numbers by Al-Ghazali. This was inaccurate, but I repeated it. Why? Because I trust Dr. Tyson. However, Dr. Tyson is human, and fully capable of mistakes. I am equally human, and equally capable of mistakes. I still trust Dr. Tyson, because I don't believe his errant comment to have been malicious or intentionally misleading. However, I will fact check anything that I repeat, henceforth.

This type of trust that humans place in those that excel is critical to my wondering about things. I place my trust in the scientific community for information about the universe around us. Many of my fellow agnostics and atheists do the same. Religious believers place their trust in religious leaders, clergy, and ancient manuscripts for information about the universe around us. While I cannot (due to lack of complete knowledge) outrightly deny the possibility of a deity capable of "creation," it seems far less likely to me than physical forces having brought about conditions required for the formation of the first protein. On such a wondrous planet as ours, it seems strange to me that so many discoveries being made, daily, would not absolutely demolish the foundations of some of the more ridiculous religious claims, and begin uniting people under a single banner of "humanity." Complicated and many are the social, psychological, geographical, and "spiritual" reasons for this, but I can't help but marvel at the things that keep people bound, against all odds and in the face of clear facts to the contrary of held beliefs.

With that stated, I wonder the following, and I am curious what people's thoughts might be on this question:

What would this world be like, if humanity had been "enlightened" enough to unite as one people, and built one single culture under the banner of science and industry, rather than having spawned religions around the world? How much more advanced would our society have been, if religion had never held political power, and we had discarded all of the ancient tales and superstitions in favor of advancing HUMANITY, as our ultimate ideal, rather than fairy tales and supernatural monster stories?

Thoughts?

All of God's people wonder about the past, present and future because they don't have any knowledge of God to understand who we are in Him. We've always been God's thoughts but the perfect illusions He formed for us to observe kept us from knowing this fact. Scientists and religious people are all deceived of their true existence in the mind of God.
ThinkFirst
Posts: 1,391
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9/24/2014 11:13:23 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/24/2014 10:06:11 AM, bornofgod wrote:
At 9/23/2014 9:09:53 AM, ThinkFirst wrote:
Occasionally, I let my mind wander into the realm of daydreaming fantasy, and wonder what this world might have been like had religion never taken such a foothold, in this world... If the Arabic world had never been shut down by "holy crusades" on one side, and the Mongol Horde, on the other, to what heights might they have soared?

I recently quoted a falsehood, spoken by Dr. Neil DeGrasse Tyson. He had stated that the reason for the decline in Arabic scientific endeavor was the condemnation of the manipulation of numbers by Al-Ghazali. This was inaccurate, but I repeated it. Why? Because I trust Dr. Tyson. However, Dr. Tyson is human, and fully capable of mistakes. I am equally human, and equally capable of mistakes. I still trust Dr. Tyson, because I don't believe his errant comment to have been malicious or intentionally misleading. However, I will fact check anything that I repeat, henceforth.

This type of trust that humans place in those that excel is critical to my wondering about things. I place my trust in the scientific community for information about the universe around us. Many of my fellow agnostics and atheists do the same. Religious believers place their trust in religious leaders, clergy, and ancient manuscripts for information about the universe around us. While I cannot (due to lack of complete knowledge) outrightly deny the possibility of a deity capable of "creation," it seems far less likely to me than physical forces having brought about conditions required for the formation of the first protein. On such a wondrous planet as ours, it seems strange to me that so many discoveries being made, daily, would not absolutely demolish the foundations of some of the more ridiculous religious claims, and begin uniting people under a single banner of "humanity." Complicated and many are the social, psychological, geographical, and "spiritual" reasons for this, but I can't help but marvel at the things that keep people bound, against all odds and in the face of clear facts to the contrary of held beliefs.

With that stated, I wonder the following, and I am curious what people's thoughts might be on this question:

What would this world be like, if humanity had been "enlightened" enough to unite as one people, and built one single culture under the banner of science and industry, rather than having spawned religions around the world? How much more advanced would our society have been, if religion had never held political power, and we had discarded all of the ancient tales and superstitions in favor of advancing HUMANITY, as our ultimate ideal, rather than fairy tales and supernatural monster stories?

Thoughts?

All of God's people wonder about the past, present and future because they don't have any knowledge of God to understand who we are in Him. We've always been God's thoughts but the perfect illusions He formed for us to observe kept us from knowing this fact. Scientists and religious people are all deceived of their true existence in the mind of God.

Um..... sure!
"Never attribute to villainy that which can be adequately explained by stupidity"
-----
"Men rarely if ever dream up a god superior to themselves. Most gods have the manners and morals of a spoiled child. "

-- Robert A Heinlein
bulproof
Posts: 25,184
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9/24/2014 11:18:29 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/24/2014 7:20:26 AM, ThinkFirst wrote:
At 9/24/2014 7:05:20 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 9/24/2014 6:26:38 AM, ThinkFirst wrote:
At 9/23/2014 7:35:22 PM, LogicalLunatic wrote:
At 9/23/2014 5:42:14 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
At 9/23/2014 4:43:49 PM, sovereigngracereigns wrote:
At 9/23/2014 9:09:53 AM, ThinkFirst wrote:
Occasionally, I let my mind wander into the realm of daydreaming fantasy, and wonder what this world might have been like had religion never taken such a foothold, in this world... If the Arabic world had never been shut down by "holy crusades" on one side, and the Mongol Horde, on the other, to what heights might they have soared?

I recently quoted a falsehood, spoken by Dr. Neil DeGrasse Tyson. He had stated that the reason for the decline in Arabic scientific endeavor was the condemnation of the manipulation of numbers by Al-Ghazali. This was inaccurate, but I repeated it. Why? Because I trust Dr. Tyson. However, Dr. Tyson is human, and fully capable of mistakes. I am equally human, and equally capable of mistakes. I still trust Dr. Tyson, because I don't believe his errant comment to have been malicious or intentionally misleading. However, I will fact check anything that I repeat, henceforth.

This type of trust that humans place in those that excel is critical to my wondering about things. I place my trust in the scientific community for information about the universe around us. Many of my fellow agnostics and atheists do the same. Religious believers place their trust in religious leaders, clergy, and ancient manuscripts for information about the universe around us. While I cannot (due to lack of complete knowledge) outrightly deny the possibility of a deity capable of "creation," it seems far less likely to me than physical forces having brought about conditions required for the formation of the first protein. On such a wondrous planet as ours, it seems strange to me that so many discoveries being made, daily, would not absolutely demolish the foundations of some of the more ridiculous religious claims, and begin uniting people under a single banner of "humanity." Complicated and many are the social, psychological, geographical, and "spiritual" reasons for this, but I can't help but marvel at the things that keep people bound, against all odds and in the face of clear facts to the contrary of held beliefs.

With that stated, I wonder the following, and I am curious what people's thoughts might be on this question:

What would this world be like, if humanity had been "enlightened" enough to unite as one people, and built one single culture under the banner of science and industry, rather than having spawned religions around the world? How much more advanced would our society have been, if religion had never held political power, and we had discarded all of the ancient tales and superstitions in favor of advancing HUMANITY, as our ultimate ideal, rather than fairy tales and supernatural monster stories?

Thoughts?

We tried that once.

It was called "The Tower of Babel."

they came together and built a tower because they saw themselves equal to God. Different thing here.

The Tower of Babel was a temple to an idea. The idea that man, without God, through science and the ingenuity of man, can become perfect or develop a perfect world, perhaps even becoming god or creating a (false) god which is a government or a system. This idea was present millennia ago during the Tower of Babel and it is the religion of the well educated of humanity today, though I am aware that this is actually an irreligion.
The Judgment on Babylon, as foretold in the Book of Revelation, is a judgment on this system or idea; it is the passing of Judgment upon man's replacement for God.

There was absolutely NOTHING about "science and ingenuity" in the biblical story. It was about unity, and accomplishment. The deity in the story didn't want man to unify, apparently...

From Genesis 11:
6 And the Lord said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do.
7 Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech.
8 So the Lord scattered them abroad from thence upon the face of all the earth: and they left off to build the city.

The judgment on Babylon, in "Revelation," is for being a whore... Babylon, representing false religion, has prostitued herself for riches and glory, rejecting her "husband," the christ... I think you might want to read your own holy book a bit more carefully, before you start making erroneous comparisons, here.

Oops... too late.

BTW, who was the "us" in that?

Maybe I haven't had enough coffee, yet, but you lost me...

Sorry, it's here
7 Go to, let us go down,
Apparently spoken by the one and only god.
I wonder who recorded that statement?
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
ThinkFirst
Posts: 1,391
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9/24/2014 12:10:20 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/24/2014 11:18:29 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 9/24/2014 7:20:26 AM, ThinkFirst wrote:
At 9/24/2014 7:05:20 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 9/24/2014 6:26:38 AM, ThinkFirst wrote:
At 9/23/2014 7:35:22 PM, LogicalLunatic wrote:
At 9/23/2014 5:42:14 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
At 9/23/2014 4:43:49 PM, sovereigngracereigns wrote:
At 9/23/2014 9:09:53 AM, ThinkFirst wrote:
Occasionally, I let my mind wander into the realm of daydreaming fantasy, and wonder what this world might have been like had religion never taken such a foothold, in this world... If the Arabic world had never been shut down by "holy crusades" on one side, and the Mongol Horde, on the other, to what heights might they have soared?

I recently quoted a falsehood, spoken by Dr. Neil DeGrasse Tyson. He had stated that the reason for the decline in Arabic scientific endeavor was the condemnation of the manipulation of numbers by Al-Ghazali. This was inaccurate, but I repeated it. Why? Because I trust Dr. Tyson. However, Dr. Tyson is human, and fully capable of mistakes. I am equally human, and equally capable of mistakes. I still trust Dr. Tyson, because I don't believe his errant comment to have been malicious or intentionally misleading. However, I will fact check anything that I repeat, henceforth.

This type of trust that humans place in those that excel is critical to my wondering about things. I place my trust in the scientific community for information about the universe around us. Many of my fellow agnostics and atheists do the same. Religious believers place their trust in religious leaders, clergy, and ancient manuscripts for information about the universe around us. While I cannot (due to lack of complete knowledge) outrightly deny the possibility of a deity capable of "creation," it seems far less likely to me than physical forces having brought about conditions required for the formation of the first protein. On such a wondrous planet as ours, it seems strange to me that so many discoveries being made, daily, would not absolutely demolish the foundations of some of the more ridiculous religious claims, and begin uniting people under a single banner of "humanity." Complicated and many are the social, psychological, geographical, and "spiritual" reasons for this, but I can't help but marvel at the things that keep people bound, against all odds and in the face of clear facts to the contrary of held beliefs.

With that stated, I wonder the following, and I am curious what people's thoughts might be on this question:

What would this world be like, if humanity had been "enlightened" enough to unite as one people, and built one single culture under the banner of science and industry, rather than having spawned religions around the world? How much more advanced would our society have been, if religion had never held political power, and we had discarded all of the ancient tales and superstitions in favor of advancing HUMANITY, as our ultimate ideal, rather than fairy tales and supernatural monster stories?

Thoughts?

We tried that once.

It was called "The Tower of Babel."

they came together and built a tower because they saw themselves equal to God. Different thing here.

The Tower of Babel was a temple to an idea. The idea that man, without God, through science and the ingenuity of man, can become perfect or develop a perfect world, perhaps even becoming god or creating a (false) god which is a government or a system. This idea was present millennia ago during the Tower of Babel and it is the religion of the well educated of humanity today, though I am aware that this is actually an irreligion.
The Judgment on Babylon, as foretold in the Book of Revelation, is a judgment on this system or idea; it is the passing of Judgment upon man's replacement for God.

There was absolutely NOTHING about "science and ingenuity" in the biblical story. It was about unity, and accomplishment. The deity in the story didn't want man to unify, apparently...

From Genesis 11:
6 And the Lord said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do.
7 Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech.
8 So the Lord scattered them abroad from thence upon the face of all the earth: and they left off to build the city.

The judgment on Babylon, in "Revelation," is for being a whore... Babylon, representing false religion, has prostitued herself for riches and glory, rejecting her "husband," the christ... I think you might want to read your own holy book a bit more carefully, before you start making erroneous comparisons, here.

Oops... too late.

BTW, who was the "us" in that?

Maybe I haven't had enough coffee, yet, but you lost me...

Sorry, it's here
7 Go to, let us go down,
Apparently spoken by the one and only god.
I wonder who recorded that statement?

I believe it was Moses (or his brother Aaron), who originally invented the magnetic recording tape. I would sure love to dig up those conversations...!
"Never attribute to villainy that which can be adequately explained by stupidity"
-----
"Men rarely if ever dream up a god superior to themselves. Most gods have the manners and morals of a spoiled child. "

-- Robert A Heinlein
RoderickSpode
Posts: 2,371
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9/24/2014 12:12:20 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/23/2014 6:52:33 PM, ThinkFirst wrote:
At 9/23/2014 2:05:54 PM, RoderickSpode wrote:


That's a pretty interesting take on the founding fathers, and one I've not heard a theist relate, before. I've always been under the impression that the FF were more deistic, and some even despised and mistrusted the clergy. Mistrusting the clergy does not necessitate, however, renouncing faith. They very well may have had faith. I do know that the separation of church and state (Jefferson) was the best proposal they ever had.

There is a lot of references to them being deists or deistic. There were no doubt deist founding fathers, but they were basically a group among a number of founding fathers who identified themselves as Christians belonging to different denominations. Some of the reasons some think they were all, or the majority were deists is because they didn't use the same lingo evangelical Christians use today. However, they were politicians, not clergymen. And their mistrust for some clergymen revolved around their suspicion of European theocracy creeping in. That was a very close to home concern because a number of their near relatives left Europe for that reason. And the concern that one denomination doesn't take over was most likely why the church services they held Sunday mornings in the capitol consisted of ministers from different denominations.

And Jefferson's reference to separating church from state was from a letter to the Danbury Baptists who were concerned about their religious freedom. The idea that Jefferson was employing was an assurance that these Baptists would not be dominated by another denomination.

I agree that it is highly unlikely that the entire human race would ever "come together as one," unless the entire planet was ever threatened, as a whole. However, religion having taken root rather than the awesome center of knowledge and scientific endeavor is, in my opinion, largely responsible for the intellectual stunting of that which man could be, today, had we gone the other way...

I understand the thought in that. What immediately comes to mind is a unified world working together, possibly enabling us to have achieved greater success in space travel. Like in the movie "2001 A Space Odyssey".

However, there seems to be a fine line between religion and culture/ethnicity. For instance, it's assumed by a number of people that the civil conflict in Northern Ireland was (or is) a religious war, whereas it was really primarily political, and even ethnic. The protestant/catholic aspect was part of the whole cultural attachment.

A number of people seemed to think the conflict resulting in the disbanding of the former Yugoslavia was a religious conflict because it involved a group of people referred to as Muslims. However, the Muslims were literally an ethnic group just like the Serbs and Croats. Apparently the confusion was so great, the ethnic Muslims decided to change their name.

When the Norwegian terrorist came onto the scene, it was assumed that his terrorist act was associated with religion, specifically Christianity. However, upon further findings from reading his manifesto, he hinted to being an agnostic or atheist. That Christianity was simply a part of the Norse culture, along with Norse paganism (both to be respected in a cultural context). The real concern for him was the ethnic cleansing of Norway/Scandinavia, and the liberation of Europe from ethnic outsiders.

So the dividing mindset of ethnic-culturalism would probably still exist even without religion. What does seem to unify multi-cultures is money (financial prosperity). That's what will cause the ethnically proud Scots to remain within the UK. That's what will cause very distinct and proud European ethnic groups who not too long ago won their independence to give more and more power to a union. Driving a nice car will generally win out over ethnic pride any day. However, money is what drives corruption.

The line between religion and all other contributors to human flaw is far too fuzzy to make any conclusion on how things could be if religion never took root. Ironically though, the idea of unity of the human race is actually a religious idea, or a spiritual idea.. That is, depending on one's view of New Age teaching.

By the way, I do mean to get back to responding to you on the other thread later on.
bulproof
Posts: 25,184
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9/24/2014 12:40:35 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/24/2014 12:10:20 PM, ThinkFirst wrote:
At 9/24/2014 11:18:29 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 9/24/2014 7:20:26 AM, ThinkFirst wrote:
At 9/24/2014 7:05:20 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 9/24/2014 6:26:38 AM, ThinkFirst wrote:
At 9/23/2014 7:35:22 PM, LogicalLunatic wrote:
At 9/23/2014 5:42:14 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
At 9/23/2014 4:43:49 PM, sovereigngracereigns wrote:
At 9/23/2014 9:09:53 AM, ThinkFirst wrote:
Occasionally, I let my mind wander into the realm of daydreaming fantasy, and wonder what this world might have been like had religion never taken such a foothold, in this world... If the Arabic world had never been shut down by "holy crusades" on one side, and the Mongol Horde, on the other, to what heights might they have soared?

I recently quoted a falsehood, spoken by Dr. Neil DeGrasse Tyson. He had stated that the reason for the decline in Arabic scientific endeavor was the condemnation of the manipulation of numbers by Al-Ghazali. This was inaccurate, but I repeated it. Why? Because I trust Dr. Tyson. However, Dr. Tyson is human, and fully capable of mistakes. I am equally human, and equally capable of mistakes. I still trust Dr. Tyson, because I don't believe his errant comment to have been malicious or intentionally misleading. However, I will fact check anything that I repeat, henceforth.

This type of trust that humans place in those that excel is critical to my wondering about things. I place my trust in the scientific community for information about the universe around us. Many of my fellow agnostics and atheists do the same. Religious believers place their trust in religious leaders, clergy, and ancient manuscripts for information about the universe around us. While I cannot (due to lack of complete knowledge) outrightly deny the possibility of a deity capable of "creation," it seems far less likely to me than physical forces having brought about conditions required for the formation of the first protein. On such a wondrous planet as ours, it seems strange to me that so many discoveries being made, daily, would not absolutely demolish the foundations of some of the more ridiculous religious claims, and begin uniting people under a single banner of "humanity." Complicated and many are the social, psychological, geographical, and "spiritual" reasons for this, but I can't help but marvel at the things that keep people bound, against all odds and in the face of clear facts to the contrary of held beliefs.

With that stated, I wonder the following, and I am curious what people's thoughts might be on this question:

What would this world be like, if humanity had been "enlightened" enough to unite as one people, and built one single culture under the banner of science and industry, rather than having spawned religions around the world? How much more advanced would our society have been, if religion had never held political power, and we had discarded all of the ancient tales and superstitions in favor of advancing HUMANITY, as our ultimate ideal, rather than fairy tales and supernatural monster stories?

Thoughts?

We tried that once.

It was called "The Tower of Babel."

they came together and built a tower because they saw themselves equal to God. Different thing here.

The Tower of Babel was a temple to an idea. The idea that man, without God, through science and the ingenuity of man, can become perfect or develop a perfect world, perhaps even becoming god or creating a (false) god which is a government or a system. This idea was present millennia ago during the Tower of Babel and it is the religion of the well educated of humanity today, though I am aware that this is actually an irreligion.
The Judgment on Babylon, as foretold in the Book of Revelation, is a judgment on this system or idea; it is the passing of Judgment upon man's replacement for God.

There was absolutely NOTHING about "science and ingenuity" in the biblical story. It was about unity, and accomplishment. The deity in the story didn't want man to unify, apparently...

From Genesis 11:
6 And the Lord said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do.
7 Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech.
8 So the Lord scattered them abroad from thence upon the face of all the earth: and they left off to build the city.

The judgment on Babylon, in "Revelation," is for being a whore... Babylon, representing false religion, has prostitued herself for riches and glory, rejecting her "husband," the christ... I think you might want to read your own holy book a bit more carefully, before you start making erroneous comparisons, here.

Oops... too late.

BTW, who was the "us" in that?

Maybe I haven't had enough coffee, yet, but you lost me...

Sorry, it's here
7 Go to, let us go down,
Apparently spoken by the one and only god.
I wonder who recorded that statement?

I believe it was Moses (or his brother Aaron), who originally invented the magnetic recording tape. I would sure love to dig up those conversations...!
I don't know this guy but I think he has your answer.
https://www.facebook.com...
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
ThinkFirst
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9/24/2014 1:59:26 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/24/2014 12:40:35 PM, bulproof wrote:
At 9/24/2014 12:10:20 PM, ThinkFirst wrote:
At 9/24/2014 11:18:29 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 9/24/2014 7:20:26 AM, ThinkFirst wrote:
At 9/24/2014 7:05:20 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 9/24/2014 6:26:38 AM, ThinkFirst wrote:
At 9/23/2014 7:35:22 PM, LogicalLunatic wrote:
At 9/23/2014 5:42:14 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
At 9/23/2014 4:43:49 PM, sovereigngracereigns wrote:
At 9/23/2014 9:09:53 AM, ThinkFirst wrote:
Occasionally, I let my mind wander into the realm of daydreaming fantasy, and wonder what this world might have been like had religion never taken such a foothold, in this world... If the Arabic world had never been shut down by "holy crusades" on one side, and the Mongol Horde, on the other, to what heights might they have soared?

I recently quoted a falsehood, spoken by Dr. Neil DeGrasse Tyson. He had stated that the reason for the decline in Arabic scientific endeavor was the condemnation of the manipulation of numbers by Al-Ghazali. This was inaccurate, but I repeated it. Why? Because I trust Dr. Tyson. However, Dr. Tyson is human, and fully capable of mistakes. I am equally human, and equally capable of mistakes. I still trust Dr. Tyson, because I don't believe his errant comment to have been malicious or intentionally misleading. However, I will fact check anything that I repeat, henceforth.

This type of trust that humans place in those that excel is critical to my wondering about things. I place my trust in the scientific community for information about the universe around us. Many of my fellow agnostics and atheists do the same. Religious believers place their trust in religious leaders, clergy, and ancient manuscripts for information about the universe around us. While I cannot (due to lack of complete knowledge) outrightly deny the possibility of a deity capable of "creation," it seems far less likely to me than physical forces having brought about conditions required for the formation of the first protein. On such a wondrous planet as ours, it seems strange to me that so many discoveries being made, daily, would not absolutely demolish the foundations of some of the more ridiculous religious claims, and begin uniting people under a single banner of "humanity." Complicated and many are the social, psychological, geographical, and "spiritual" reasons for this, but I can't help but marvel at the things that keep people bound, against all odds and in the face of clear facts to the contrary of held beliefs.

With that stated, I wonder the following, and I am curious what people's thoughts might be on this question:

What would this world be like, if humanity had been "enlightened" enough to unite as one people, and built one single culture under the banner of science and industry, rather than having spawned religions around the world? How much more advanced would our society have been, if religion had never held political power, and we had discarded all of the ancient tales and superstitions in favor of advancing HUMANITY, as our ultimate ideal, rather than fairy tales and supernatural monster stories?

Thoughts?

We tried that once.

It was called "The Tower of Babel."

they came together and built a tower because they saw themselves equal to God. Different thing here.

The Tower of Babel was a temple to an idea. The idea that man, without God, through science and the ingenuity of man, can become perfect or develop a perfect world, perhaps even becoming god or creating a (false) god which is a government or a system. This idea was present millennia ago during the Tower of Babel and it is the religion of the well educated of humanity today, though I am aware that this is actually an irreligion.
The Judgment on Babylon, as foretold in the Book of Revelation, is a judgment on this system or idea; it is the passing of Judgment upon man's replacement for God.

There was absolutely NOTHING about "science and ingenuity" in the biblical story. It was about unity, and accomplishment. The deity in the story didn't want man to unify, apparently...

From Genesis 11:
6 And the Lord said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do.
7 Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech.
8 So the Lord scattered them abroad from thence upon the face of all the earth: and they left off to build the city.

The judgment on Babylon, in "Revelation," is for being a whore... Babylon, representing false religion, has prostitued herself for riches and glory, rejecting her "husband," the christ... I think you might want to read your own holy book a bit more carefully, before you start making erroneous comparisons, here.

Oops... too late.

BTW, who was the "us" in that?

Maybe I haven't had enough coffee, yet, but you lost me...

Sorry, it's here
7 Go to, let us go down,
Apparently spoken by the one and only god.
I wonder who recorded that statement?

I believe it was Moses (or his brother Aaron), who originally invented the magnetic recording tape. I would sure love to dig up those conversations...!
I don't know this guy but I think he has your answer.
https://www.facebook.com...

ROFL!!! I love it. That might have been the first transcription of the Pentateuch...
"Never attribute to villainy that which can be adequately explained by stupidity"
-----
"Men rarely if ever dream up a god superior to themselves. Most gods have the manners and morals of a spoiled child. "

-- Robert A Heinlein