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Proof for Religion?

Korashk
Posts: 4,597
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4/4/2010 8:47:49 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
http://www.oneheartbeataway.org...

That website claims to give proof for religious claims in its book. The book is free, I ordered one. I'm looking forward to them using the same style of evidence that Geo uses for reptile aliens. No offense Geo, but that stuff really isn't all that convincing.
When large numbers of otherwise-law abiding people break specific laws en masse, it's usually a fault that lies with the law. - Unknown
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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4/4/2010 8:50:31 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/4/2010 8:47:49 PM, Korashk wrote:
http://www.oneheartbeataway.org...

That website claims to give proof for religious claims in its book. The book is free, I ordered one. I'm looking forward to them using the same style of evidence that Geo uses for reptile aliens. No offense Geo, but that stuff really isn't all that convincing.

I doubt you really looked into the evidence. It takes incredible amounts of background information to even understand the evidence in the first place. Anyways, let's try to stay on topic.

Is there a point to this thread? If not, I'll give it one. Let's get input from religious people on how they are convinced of religious claims.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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4/4/2010 8:54:47 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Excerpt from the site:

"All of this information is laid out in a reader friendly style with many exciting stories—from near death experiences, to what certain celebrities believe, to a guy who is a building jumper. He actually jumps from building to building for fun! I asked him if he had ever missed before...what if I told you his answer was, "Yes.""

FAIL
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
J.Kenyon
Posts: 4,194
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4/4/2010 9:18:21 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/4/2010 8:54:47 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
Excerpt from the site:

"All of this information is laid out in a reader friendly style with many exciting stories—from near death experiences, to what certain celebrities believe, to a guy who is a building jumper. He actually jumps from building to building for fun! I asked him if he had ever missed before...what if I told you his answer was, "Yes.""

FAIL

David Icke was a professional soccer player in the UK, then he became a TV sports reporter. Then, in 1991, dressed in a turquoise and purple shell suit, he went on an early evening TV talk show and announced that he was the Son of God. He went on to predict global disaster - tidal waves, volcanic eruptions and earthquakes - all before the end of the year. The cataclysms failed to occur, and Icke subsequently changed his mind and decided that he wasn't the Son of God after all.

In the photo section, Icke puts pictures of the Prince Albert Victor (the Duke of Clarence, and grandson of Queen Victoria), and Adolf Hitler next to each other, and asks, "Were they the same person?" No Dave, they weren't. The Duke died in 1892 at the age of 28. Hitler was born in 1889. So that's a 25 year age difference between them. Did Hitler look like he was 81 at the end of WWII? Nope. And that's not to mention that the Duke was famously tall, and Hitler was rather notoriously short.

FAIL
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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4/4/2010 9:41:30 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/4/2010 9:18:21 PM, J.Kenyon wrote:
David Icke was a professional soccer player in the UK, then he became a TV sports reporter. Then, in 1991, dressed in a turquoise and purple shell suit, he went on an early evening TV talk show

Icke has admitted in his books that he was mentally unstable during that year of 91 which, unfortunately was the year he got a lot of publicity. He doesn't stand by the things he said back then.

and announced that he was the Son of God.

Misinterpreted. He used it as a metaphor to explain the philosophical concept that we are all smaller parts of the whole. Thomas Paine in his book, the Age of Reason also claimed he was the son of God as we all are.

He went on to predict global disaster - tidal waves, volcanic eruptions and earthquakes - all before the end of the year. The cataclysms failed to occur,

He's not a prophet. All predictions are speculations and cannot be held against anyone. That's absurd. "Oh my gosh! You don't have psychic powers afterall! I totally thought you were a psychic!" People are actually surprised that he's not a prophet afterall? That's fail.

and Icke subsequently changed his mind and decided that he wasn't the Son of God after all.

He admitted that it was poor wording, but still agrees with the concept of holism (smaller version of the whole).

In the photo section, Icke puts pictures of the Prince Albert Victor (the Duke of Clarence, and grandson of Queen Victoria), and Adolf Hitler next to each other, and asks, "Were they the same person?" No Dave, they weren't. The Duke died in 1892 at the age of 28. Hitler was born in 1889. So that's a 25 year age difference between them. Did Hitler look like he was 81 at the end of WWII? Nope. And that's not to mention that the Duke was famously tall, and Hitler was rather notoriously short.

First of all, source? I've never heard of this occurrence. Second of all, what's wrong with asking questions? Is it wrong to question the identity of historical figures?
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
J.Kenyon
Posts: 4,194
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4/4/2010 9:53:07 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/4/2010 9:41:30 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 4/4/2010 9:18:21 PM, J.Kenyon wrote:
He went on to predict global disaster - tidal waves, volcanic eruptions and earthquakes - all before the end of the year. The cataclysms failed to occur,

He's not a prophet. All predictions are speculations and cannot be held against anyone. That's absurd. "Oh my gosh! You don't have psychic powers afterall! I totally thought you were a psychic!" People are actually surprised that he's not a prophet afterall? That's fail.

Lol. I'm not a prophet or nuffin, but ima go ahead and predict te end of the world anywayz.

In the photo section, Icke puts pictures of the Prince Albert Victor (the Duke of Clarence, and grandson of Queen Victoria), and Adolf Hitler next to each other, and asks, "Were they the same person?" No Dave, they weren't. The Duke died in 1892 at the age of 28. Hitler was born in 1889. So that's a 25 year age difference between them. Did Hitler look like he was 81 at the end of WWII? Nope. And that's not to mention that the Duke was famously tall, and Hitler was rather notoriously short.

First of all, source? I've never heard of this occurrence.

From "The Biggest Secret" by, ahem, David Icke.

Second of all, what's wrong with asking questions? Is it wrong to question the identity of historical figures?

Lol, did you read what I said?

"The Duke died in 1892 at the age of 28. Hitler was born in 1889. So that's a 25 year age difference between them. Did Hitler look like he was 81 at the end of WWII? Nope. And that's not to mention that the Duke was famously tall, and Hitler was rather notoriously short."

For example, if I were to assert that:

"ZOMG, OBAMA IS TOTALLY HITLER. HE SURVIVED WWII, GOT MASSIVE PLASTIC SURGERY, SPENT A YEAR SLEEPING IN A TANNING BED, AND NOW HE IS GOING 2 TRY AND TAEK OVER TEH WERLD!"

Then yes, there is such a thing as an extraordinarily stupid question.
Marauder
Posts: 3,271
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4/5/2010 7:11:29 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
If this book has excerpts of celebrity oppinions and is 'reader freindly' and they even have no problem giving it away for free, Then I would not waist ones time buying it looking for proof, for this book is obviously just devotional book, no deep thought is ever put into those.

http://www.amazon.com...
Now this book, writen by Lee Stroble, I have heard much better reviews for it in 'proving god' topic. Someday I'm going to get when I have the time to read it.
One act of Rebellion created all the darkness and evil in the world; One life of Total Obedience created a path back to eternity and God.

A Scout is Obedient.
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
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4/5/2010 10:33:41 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/4/2010 8:54:47 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
Excerpt from the site:

"All of this information is laid out in a reader friendly style with many exciting stories—from near death experiences, to what certain celebrities believe, to a guy who is a building jumper. He actually jumps from building to building for fun! I asked him if he had ever missed before...what if I told you his answer was, "Yes.""

FAIL

Sheesh... if fails Geo's quality control then it really does fail!
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
Anacharsis
Posts: 139
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4/5/2010 2:32:54 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/4/2010 8:50:31 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
Is there a point to this thread? If not, I'll give it one. Let's get input from religious people on how they are convinced of religious claims.

I'm new to debate.org, but I'll start out by painting a target on my head. I am fairly religious, but yet find little if any objective evidence for the claims of any religion. The best evidence I find for my own religious beliefs, which are somewhat outside the norm, comes only from my own perceptions.
InsertNameHere
Posts: 15,699
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4/5/2010 2:36:08 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/5/2010 2:32:54 PM, Anacharsis wrote:
At 4/4/2010 8:50:31 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
Is there a point to this thread? If not, I'll give it one. Let's get input from religious people on how they are convinced of religious claims.

I'm new to debate.org, but I'll start out by painting a target on my head. I am fairly religious, but yet find little if any objective evidence for the claims of any religion. The best evidence I find for my own religious beliefs, which are somewhat outside the norm, comes only from my own perceptions.

Welcome to DDO! :)

I just took a look at your profile and noticed that you're a Sikh. There aren't any other ons here that I know of so your perspective on things should be interesting. I look forward to reading your contributions. :)
InsertNameHere
Posts: 15,699
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4/5/2010 2:36:48 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/5/2010 2:36:08 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
At 4/5/2010 2:32:54 PM, Anacharsis wrote:
At 4/4/2010 8:50:31 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
Is there a point to this thread? If not, I'll give it one. Let's get input from religious people on how they are convinced of religious claims.

I'm new to debate.org, but I'll start out by painting a target on my head. I am fairly religious, but yet find little if any objective evidence for the claims of any religion. The best evidence I find for my own religious beliefs, which are somewhat outside the norm, comes only from my own perceptions.

Welcome to DDO! :)

I just took a look at your profile and noticed that you're a Sikh. There aren't any other ones here that I know of so your perspective on things should be interesting. I look forward to reading your contributions. :)
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
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4/5/2010 2:40:06 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/5/2010 2:32:54 PM, Anacharsis wrote:
At 4/4/2010 8:50:31 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
Is there a point to this thread? If not, I'll give it one. Let's get input from religious people on how they are convinced of religious claims.

I'm new to debate.org, but I'll start out by painting a target on my head. I am fairly religious, but yet find little if any objective evidence for the claims of any religion. The best evidence I find for my own religious beliefs, which are somewhat outside the norm, comes only from my own perceptions.

You are a refreshing combination of faith and honesty. It is the general rule here that the two are mutually exclusive. What is the nature of your perceptions.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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4/5/2010 2:45:49 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/5/2010 2:32:54 PM, Anacharsis wrote:
At 4/4/2010 8:50:31 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
Is there a point to this thread? If not, I'll give it one. Let's get input from religious people on how they are convinced of religious claims.

I'm new to debate.org, but I'll start out by painting a target on my head. I am fairly religious, but yet find little if any objective evidence for the claims of any religion. The best evidence I find for my own religious beliefs, which are somewhat outside the norm, comes only from my own perceptions.

Welcome! You're probably the first Sikh to post here. Based on your Beliefs section, we pretty much agree.

If you could also, maybe make a topic about Sikhism cause I doubt many here, including myself, know much about it.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
InsertNameHere
Posts: 15,699
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4/5/2010 2:47:11 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/5/2010 2:45:49 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 4/5/2010 2:32:54 PM, Anacharsis wrote:
At 4/4/2010 8:50:31 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
Is there a point to this thread? If not, I'll give it one. Let's get input from religious people on how they are convinced of religious claims.

I'm new to debate.org, but I'll start out by painting a target on my head. I am fairly religious, but yet find little if any objective evidence for the claims of any religion. The best evidence I find for my own religious beliefs, which are somewhat outside the norm, comes only from my own perceptions.

Welcome! You're probably the first Sikh to post here. Based on your Beliefs section, we pretty much agree.

If you could also, maybe make a topic about Sikhism cause I doubt many here, including myself, know much about it.

I know a bit, having done a bit of research on it back in highschool, but yea, I certainly don't know as much about it as I do about some other religions.
Anacharsis
Posts: 139
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4/8/2010 10:29:32 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/5/2010 2:40:06 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
You are a refreshing combination of faith and honesty. It is the general rule here that the two are mutually exclusive. What is the nature of your perceptions.

Sorry to take so long to reply, CN. I have been pondering this answer and trying to boil it down. There is a central difficulty in describing the divine in that if someone succeeds in truly apprehending it one of two things happens, either he departs his body and disolves in the infinite without being able to convey the experience to us, or he returns to his body and loses a part of that experience, the human mind cannot encompass it; and so, he is still unable to convey it to us. My own experience is of having been disolved in the infinite and having returned to my body unable to contain the infinity that I was.

The most succinct description of my interpretation that I think others could easily comprehend is here: http://en.wikipedia.org...

I think it at least succeeds in slapping a label on it. There is no description for the experience, but the experience itself.
Korashk
Posts: 4,597
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4/8/2010 7:50:50 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/8/2010 3:38:53 PM, Koopin wrote:
I got the book today

So did I, I haven't looked at it yet but I will post a mini-review soon.
When large numbers of otherwise-law abiding people break specific laws en masse, it's usually a fault that lies with the law. - Unknown
omelet
Posts: 416
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4/8/2010 9:01:03 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/8/2010 10:29:32 AM, Anacharsis wrote:
My own experience is of having been disolved in the infinite and having returned to my body unable to contain the infinity that I was.
Do you think it's more likely that that's true or that it's a delusion?

When did you gain this experience? Had you been doing drugs? Did you have a near-death experience? Or was it just an ordinary day and then BOOM, this experience comes out of nowhere?
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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4/8/2010 9:25:33 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/8/2010 10:29:32 AM, Anacharsis wrote:
My own experience is of having been disolved in the infinite and having returned to my body unable to contain the infinity that I was.

mmm.... I can recognize that I am but a part of a larger whole, and am not really distinct from it... but I've never Identified as all or everything...

In 'meditating' a few years back I, you might say, forgot myself but in doing so, I didn't become the universe, rather just disassociated from my own cares, and kind of became 'aware' but not conscious (following the "lights" which play on your eyelids kind of puts you, eventually, in a state where you are active, but not consciously acting)

mmm... LOTS of people have supernatural experiences... probably self delusional in my book.

Plus you need not 'leave' your body to embrace the ultimate, infinite, reality...
the Dao vibrates in every thing and every not thing right off the tip of your nose
Laozi; hua hu ching
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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4/8/2010 9:31:35 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/8/2010 9:25:33 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 4/8/2010 10:29:32 AM, Anacharsis wrote:
My own experience is of having been disolved in the infinite and having returned to my body unable to contain the infinity that I was.

mmm.... I can recognize that I am but a part of a larger whole, and am not really distinct from it... but I've never Identified as all or everything...

In 'meditating' a few years back I, you might say, forgot myself but in doing so, I didn't become the universe, rather just disassociated from my own cares, and kind of became 'aware' but not conscious (following the "lights" which play on your eyelids kind of puts you, eventually, in a state where you are active, but not consciously acting)

mmm... LOTS of people have supernatural experiences... probably self delusional in my book.

Plus you need not 'leave' your body to embrace the ultimate, infinite, reality...
the Dao vibrates in every thing and every not thing right off the tip of your nose
Laozi; hua hu ching

maybe I'm just being a prick... and you didn't say that you have to leave your body for anything...

yep.

But I would think that containing the infinity that you were wouldn't be tough... Being what you are is quite easy... natural even.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
DATCMOTO
Posts: 6,160
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4/9/2010 3:22:40 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/4/2010 8:47:49 PM, Korashk wrote:
http://www.oneheartbeataway.org...

That website claims to give proof for religious claims in its book. The book is free, I ordered one. I'm looking forward to them using the same style of evidence that Geo uses for reptile aliens. No offense Geo, but that stuff really isn't all that convincing.

Hebrews 11:1
Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see.
The Cross.. the Cross.
Anacharsis
Posts: 139
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4/10/2010 10:57:03 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/8/2010 9:01:03 PM, omelet wrote:
At 4/8/2010 10:29:32 AM, Anacharsis wrote:
My own experience is of having been dissolved in the infinite and having returned to my body unable to contain the infinity that I was.
Do you think it's more likely that that's true or that it's a delusion?

When did you gain this experience? Had you been doing drugs? Did you have a near-death experience? Or was it just an ordinary day and then BOOM, this experience comes out of nowhere?

This experience is obtained only through meditation. But the manner in which one meditates and the focus bare heavily on the result. One could meditate on being a giant purple turtle and become convinced that they have achieved this. This all reasonably opens the question of whether the experience is delusional. I couldn't say that mine isn't, only that it seems to be an internally coherent delusion. I could could go on for a long time on this, but I hold to the idea that it's better to remain silent and allow others to think you're insane, rather than open one's mouth and convince them of it.

When one meditates on dissolving in the infinite, that is likely to influence the result; a highly desirable result, I believe.

At 4/8/2010 9:31:35 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 4/8/2010 9:25:33 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 4/8/2010 10:29:32 AM, Anacharsis wrote:
My own experience is of having been disolved in the infinite and having returned to my body unable to contain the infinity that I was.

mmm.... I can recognize that I am but a part of a larger whole, and am not really distinct from it... but I've never Identified as all or everything...

In 'meditating' a few years back I, you might say, forgot myself but in doing so, I didn't become the universe, rather just disassociated from my own cares, and kind of became 'aware' but not conscious (following the "lights" which play on your eyelids kind of puts you, eventually, in a state where you are active, but not consciously acting)

mmm... LOTS of people have supernatural experiences... probably self delusional in my book.

Plus you need not 'leave' your body to embrace the ultimate, infinite, reality...
the Dao vibrates in every thing and every not thing right off the tip of your nose
Laozi; hua hu ching

maybe I'm just being a prick... and you didn't say that you have to leave your body for anything...

yep.

But I would think that containing the infinity that you were wouldn't be tough... Being what you are is quite easy... natural even.

Being what we are may be easy, but it seems that most of the time most people go about believing that they are individual humans having various experiences of the world; an illusion (http://bit.ly...), I would suggest, that distracts us from what we are. Easy to be, difficult to focus on.

P.S. sorry for using bit.ly instead of pasting the full URL, but it didn't come out properly in the post and there doesn't appear to be a way to create a proper link.
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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4/10/2010 12:18:24 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/8/2010 9:25:33 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 4/8/2010 10:29:32 AM, Anacharsis wrote:
My own experience is of having been disolved in the infinite and having returned to my body unable to contain the infinity that I was.

mmm.... I can recognize that I am but a part of a larger whole, and am not really distinct from it... but I've never Identified as all or everything...

That is the difference between Holism and Holonism. Holism is being a part of the whole and Holonism is the part actually being the entire whole. Or more correctly, the part is a smaller version of the whole. I personally accept both Holism and Holonism to be true.

http://en.wikipedia.org...
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
Zetsubou
Posts: 4,933
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4/10/2010 12:39:35 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/10/2010 12:18:24 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:

That is the difference between Holism and Holonism. Holism is being a part of the whole and Holonism is the part actually being the entire whole. Or more correctly, the part is a smaller version of the whole. I personally accept both Holism and Holonism to be true.

http://en.wikipedia.org...

I always found the Holon concept a lot of BS, but meh....
'sup DDO -- july 2013
Tlhedglin
Posts: 119
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4/11/2010 7:57:21 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/4/2010 8:47:49 PM, Korashk wrote:
http://www.oneheartbeataway.org...

That website claims to give proof for religious claims in its book. The book is free, I ordered one. I'm looking forward to them using the same style of evidence that Geo uses for reptile aliens. No offense Geo, but that stuff really isn't all that convincing.

I won't even order one, if I wanted to hear anecdotal evidence and arguments from ignorance I would simply read more religious pamphlets...
Marauder
Posts: 3,271
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4/12/2010 9:00:42 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/11/2010 7:57:21 PM, Tlhedglin wrote:
At 4/4/2010 8:47:49 PM, Korashk wrote:
http://www.oneheartbeataway.org...

That website claims to give proof for religious claims in its book. The book is free, I ordered one. I'm looking forward to them using the same style of evidence that Geo uses for reptile aliens. No offense Geo, but that stuff really isn't all that convincing.

I won't even order one, if I wanted to hear anecdotal evidence and arguments from ignorance I would simply read more religious pamphlets...

From taking a look at it I'm pretty sure the book is just a religious pamphlet.
One act of Rebellion created all the darkness and evil in the world; One life of Total Obedience created a path back to eternity and God.

A Scout is Obedient.
Tlhedglin
Posts: 119
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4/12/2010 4:16:58 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/12/2010 9:00:42 AM, Marauder wrote:
At 4/11/2010 7:57:21 PM, Tlhedglin wrote:
At 4/4/2010 8:47:49 PM, Korashk wrote:
http://www.oneheartbeataway.org...

That website claims to give proof for religious claims in its book. The book is free, I ordered one. I'm looking forward to them using the same style of evidence that Geo uses for reptile aliens. No offense Geo, but that stuff really isn't all that convincing.

I won't even order one, if I wanted to hear anecdotal evidence and arguments from ignorance I would simply read more religious pamphlets...

From taking a look at it I'm pretty sure the book is just a religious pamphlet.

As expected, then. Seeing how I DIDN'T order one, I cannot be disappointed.