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Muslims hit back at bigots ....

neutral
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9/27/2014 6:44:45 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
https://portal.usaraf.army.mil...

Muslims this week began apologizing on social media for algebra (named after a book by mathematician Abu Ja'far Muhammad ibn Musa Al-Khwarizmi), shampoo (first brought to England by a Muslim merchant), "amazing architecture," and other innovations made possible by members of the Islamic faith throughout history. The point? That Muslims, of whom there are about 1.6 billion, shouldn't be blamed for the heinous crimes of a few.

The new hashtag seeks to address a different issue: the notion that religion bears responsibility for extremist actions at all.

A direct challenge not only to the broad smears of Islam in general in the West, but a direct challenge to atheist extremists like Hitchens, Dawkins, etc.

It looks like people who are rleigious are not buying the continuous smears, and as usual with such behavior, its breeding a backlash to correct the egregious inaccuracies.
neutral
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9/27/2014 6:45:58 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/27/2014 6:44:45 AM, neutral wrote:
https://portal.usaraf.army.mil...

Muslims this week began apologizing on social media for algebra (named after a book by mathematician Abu Ja'far Muhammad ibn Musa Al-Khwarizmi), shampoo (first brought to England by a Muslim merchant), "amazing architecture," and other innovations made possible by members of the Islamic faith throughout history. The point? That Muslims, of whom there are about 1.6 billion, shouldn't be blamed for the heinous crimes of a few.

The new hashtag seeks to address a different issue: the notion that religion bears responsibility for extremist actions at all.

A direct challenge not only to the broad smears of Islam in general in the West, but a direct challenge to atheist extremists like Hitchens, Dawkins, etc.

It looks like people who are rleigious are not buying the continuous smears, and as usual with such behavior, its breeding a backlash to correct the egregious inaccuracies.

http://news.yahoo.com...

correct link
Fly
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9/27/2014 5:17:36 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Well, they are quite eager to demonize the Jews. The point being that they should take a long introspective look at the numerous and various skeletons in their closet. Instead, many seem to say, "Stop pointing out the skeletons in our closet!" That is not addressing issues; that is deflecting issues.

Christianity is not all that different, at its core. The major difference there is that it is PAST its medieval period.
"You don't have a right to be a jerk."
--Religion Forum's hypocrite extraordinaire serving up lulz
Demetriuscapone
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9/28/2014 4:26:40 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Maybe they should admit that specific tenants within Islam actually do encourage the actions of islamic extremism? Whether it is 100 % or not, seems to be rather irrelevant, because the belief in Martyrdom and Jihad gives a very good rationale for behaving the way ISIS or Boko Haram does.

And I would also apologize for all the scientific discoveries we non-believers have made, will continue to make and have laid the foundation for finding out, but I have limited characters I'm afraid.
neutral
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9/29/2014 1:42:13 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/27/2014 5:17:36 PM, Fly wrote:
Well, they are quite eager to demonize the Jews. The point being that they should take a long introspective look at the numerous and various skeletons in their closet. Instead, many seem to say, "Stop pointing out the skeletons in our closet!" That is not addressing issues; that is deflecting issues.

Christianity is not all that different, at its core. The major difference there is that it is PAST its medieval period.

No, actually they are not. I was in the Middle East during one of Israel's Gaza incursions. That particular bout was caused by Hamas, and the Arab officers I was serving with universally sided with Israel in that instance. After a weeks drubbing and over a thousand dead civilians, that opinion had shifted. Its is the Arabs who could separate the politics from the people, and that was in a major Arabian Headquarters filled with Arab generals whose fingers were on the pulse of power in the Middle East.

That Israel cannot find common cause with men such as these? That is not entirely the Arabs fault is it?

One could also look at the latest Gaza campaign, the murder of a Jewish settler was horrific, but it was the act of two men. Jewish extremist kidnap and burn a Palestinian Youth to death and .... Arabs are not stupid, and the recent coupling of Israeli politics with the right wing extremists is making it impossible to compromise with Israel, not the other way around.

When the Arabs, Muslims, point to issues like these its not demonization of Jews, its criticism of Israeli politics. the us verses them mentality has a lot to do with Israeli policy.
neutral
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9/29/2014 1:44:14 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/28/2014 4:26:40 PM, Demetriuscapone wrote:
Maybe they should admit that specific tenants within Islam actually do encourage the actions of islamic extremism? Whether it is 100 % or not, seems to be rather irrelevant, because the belief in Martyrdom and Jihad gives a very good rationale for behaving the way ISIS or Boko Haram does.

And I would also apologize for all the scientific discoveries we non-believers have made, will continue to make and have laid the foundation for finding out, but I have limited characters I'm afraid.

So if we lift a few passages out of context and ignore the majority of the Koran we validate extremist interpretation?

Congrats, you just nailed why its extremist. Its a FEW selected quotes and the deliberate ignoring of the wider breadth and meaning of the faith.

If I quoted Christ Hitchens on the Iraq War, would that bind all atheists to genoicde in the Middle East? Or would those comments not be reflective of the majority of atheists?

Do we need double standards?
Demetriuscapone
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9/29/2014 5:57:39 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/29/2014 1:44:14 AM, neutral wrote:

So if we lift a few passages out of context and ignore the majority of the Koran we validate extremist interpretation?

The majority of the quran is hatemongering against non-believers, the author writing that god is good, that the book is true and everyone who doesn't believe in it is going to hell. It gives a very good rationale for ISIS behaviour.


Congrats, you just nailed why its extremist. Its a FEW selected quotes and the deliberate ignoring of the wider breadth and meaning of the faith.

Well, if we look at the actions of the prophet Mohammed and the history of islamic conquest, sanctioned by the religion and what more or less all islamic scholars think histroically, warfare against infidels is highly justified. But since you have no problem with genocide and slavery, I realise of course that Mohammed's conquest of the infidel arabs and later the phoney, orthodox christians and zoroastrians was justified in your world.


If I quoted Christ Hitchens on the Iraq War, would that bind all atheists to genoicde in the Middle East? Or would those comments not be reflective of the majority of atheists?

Hitchens concerns on the Iraq war was that he strongly disliked Saddam Hussein and wanted to safeguard the kurds in the region. He wanted Saddam to dissapear. In the aftermath of course, he recognized that the civil war was strongly linked to Saddam not being able to keep the religious tension in check. He still didn't regret having said everything he said about the Hussein family or the necessity of the rest of the world to topple dictatorships and theocracies. Atheism is also not something that entitles you to specific opinions on any other subject than on the question if you believe in god.

So even if all atheists except me were for the Iraq war, it still wouldn't mean that I have to have that opinion if I call myself an atheist, because that is not the meaning of the word. As for the quran, it's the perfect word of the creator of the universe. Everything in it must be fullfilled. There is no argument on that point.
bulproof
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9/29/2014 6:04:38 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
For some obscure reason newt thinks that "atheists" consider Hitchens and Dawkins to be gods!

From what deeply repressed memory of childhood abuse does that arise?
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
neutral
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9/29/2014 6:47:52 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/29/2014 5:57:39 AM, Demetriuscapone wrote:
At 9/29/2014 1:44:14 AM, neutral wrote:

So if we lift a few passages out of context and ignore the majority of the Koran we validate extremist interpretation?

The majority of the quran is hatemongering against non-believers, the author writing that god is good, that the book is true and everyone who doesn't believe in it is going to hell. It gives a very good rationale for ISIS behaviour.


Congrats, you just nailed why its extremist. Its a FEW selected quotes and the deliberate ignoring of the wider breadth and meaning of the faith.

Well, if we look at the actions of the prophet Mohammed and the history of islamic conquest, sanctioned by the religion and what more or less all islamic scholars think histroically, warfare against infidels is highly justified. But since you have no problem with genocide and slavery, I realise of course that Mohammed's conquest of the infidel arabs and later the phoney, orthodox christians and zoroastrians was justified in your world.



If I quoted Christ Hitchens on the Iraq War, would that bind all atheists to genoicde in the Middle East? Or would those comments not be reflective of the majority of atheists?

Hitchens concerns on the Iraq war was that he strongly disliked Saddam Hussein and wanted to safeguard the kurds in the region. He wanted Saddam to dissapear. In the aftermath of course, he recognized that the civil war was strongly linked to Saddam not being able to keep the religious tension in check. He still didn't regret having said everything he said about the Hussein family or the necessity of the rest of the world to topple dictatorships and theocracies. Atheism is also not something that entitles you to specific opinions on any other subject than on the question if you believe in god.

So even if all atheists except me were for the Iraq war, it still wouldn't mean that I have to have that opinion if I call myself an atheist, because that is not the meaning of the word. As for the quran, it's the perfect word of the creator of the universe. Everything in it must be fullfilled. There is no argument on that point.

Hitchens openly called for genocide agianst the Iraqis.

http://scienceblogs.com...

So its OK to portray all Muslims or the religion of Islam as being violent because of ISIS? Even though these guys are a tiny minority of the 1+ billion muslims? That is fine.

But quoting Chris Hitchens and his legion of followers means we moderate his comments, and exonerate the extremist, while disavowing his comments from the overall 'atheist' community?

How exactly does that work out in terms of applying objective standards to an issue?
neutral
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9/29/2014 6:48:26 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/29/2014 6:04:38 AM, bulproof wrote:
For some obscure reason newt thinks that "atheists" consider Hitchens and Dawkins to be gods!

From what deeply repressed memory of childhood abuse does that arise?

Oh look, another inane off topic strawman from my stalker.

Go f*ck yourself.
Demetriuscapone
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9/29/2014 7:11:10 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/29/2014 6:47:52 AM, neutral wrote:

Hitchens openly called for genocide agianst the Iraqis.

http://scienceblogs.com...

Nope. Try again.


So its OK to portray all Muslims or the religion of Islam as being violent because of ISIS? Even though these guys are a tiny minority of the 1+ billion muslims? That is fine.

30 % of british muslims want people who leave the faith to be killed. The polls taken in different muslim countries is often extremely disheartening. The values that Islam proposes are in no sense good for any society.

These values are not just prevalent amognst some small minority.


But quoting Chris Hitchens and his legion of followers means we moderate his comments, and exonerate the extremist, while disavowing his comments from the overall 'atheist' community?

Yeah it does. Because the only thing atheists have in common is that they don't believe in a god. Atheism isn't a dogma, like a political ideology or a religion. Islam however, is a dogmatic faith, based on scripture that proposes all kinds of wacked ways to live. And this scripture is the only thing that makes muslims have anything in common whatsoever. Islam is a vast religion consisting of several different cultures, who can't be said to have anything in common other than the scripture. Atheism is simply ' I don't believe in god' and what that person does afterwards is truly not representative for atheists, no matter what. Which is different from Islam, since when people behave in a way that is truly sanctioned by the faith, they really do represent it.

This is something muslim intellectualls such as Majid Navaz and Irshad Manji, who still call themselves muslims admit. But they want to find ways to undercut the extreme behaviour, that still forces them to admit when the jihadists are right and that it actually does have something to do with the religion.
neutral
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9/29/2014 7:20:08 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/29/2014 7:11:10 AM, Demetriuscapone wrote:
At 9/29/2014 6:47:52 AM, neutral wrote:

Hitchens openly called for genocide agianst the Iraqis.

http://scienceblogs.com...

Nope. Try again.


So its OK to portray all Muslims or the religion of Islam as being violent because of ISIS? Even though these guys are a tiny minority of the 1+ billion muslims? That is fine.

30 % of british muslims want people who leave the faith to be killed. The polls taken in different muslim countries is often extremely disheartening. The values that Islam proposes are in no sense good for any society.

Source?


These values are not just prevalent amognst some small minority.


But quoting Chris Hitchens and his legion of followers means we moderate his comments, and exonerate the extremist, while disavowing his comments from the overall 'atheist' community?

Yeah it does. Because the only thing atheists have in common is that they don't believe in a god. Atheism isn't a dogma, like a political ideology or a religion. Islam however, is a dogmatic faith, based on scripture that proposes all kinds of wacked ways to live. And this scripture is the only thing that makes muslims have anything in common whatsoever. Islam is a vast religion consisting of several different cultures, who can't be said to have anything in common other than the scripture. Atheism is simply ' I don't believe in god' and what that person does afterwards is truly not representative for atheists, no matter what. Which is different from Islam, since when people behave in a way that is truly sanctioned by the faith, they really do represent it.

This is something muslim intellectualls such as Majid Navaz and Irshad Manji, who still call themselves muslims admit. But they want to find ways to undercut the extreme behaviour, that still forces them to admit when the jihadists are right and that it actually does have something to do with the religion.

The only thing All Muslims have in common is the belief that Mohammed was a Prophet of God.

How then does ISIS represent the faith better than the Islamic scholars that condemn it?
Otokage
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9/29/2014 7:21:22 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/27/2014 6:44:45 AM, neutral wrote:
https://portal.usaraf.army.mil...

Muslims this week began apologizing on social media for algebra (named after a book by mathematician Abu Ja'far Muhammad ibn Musa Al-Khwarizmi), shampoo (first brought to England by a Muslim merchant), "amazing architecture," and other innovations made possible by members of the Islamic faith throughout history. The point? That Muslims, of whom there are about 1.6 billion, shouldn't be blamed for the heinous crimes of a few.

The new hashtag seeks to address a different issue: the notion that religion bears responsibility for extremist actions at all.

A direct challenge not only to the broad smears of Islam in general in the West, but a direct challenge to atheist extremists like Hitchens, Dawkins, etc.

It looks like people who are rleigious are not buying the continuous smears, and as usual with such behavior, its breeding a backlash to correct the egregious inaccuracies.

One thing is to not blame muslims because of the actions of a few terrorists, which is something I totally agree with. Another thing is trying to exempt the Koran of guilt while it is a book that is advocating for terrorism, and many other horrendous crimes.

Kuran should be illegal as any other hate propaganda. At least release a softcore version that does not advocate to break western laws in every single verse.
Zylorarchy
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9/29/2014 7:25:00 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
Always the loudest religion when defending itself, yet so quiet in regards to Islamic terrorism.

Obviously terrorists make up a really small minority of Islam, yet... instead of actually speaking out against the actions of ISIS, this group merely ignores the suffering caused by people acting in the name of Islam, and mocks the West. Nice.
"I am not intolerant of religion, I am intolerant of intolerance"
"True freedom is not simply left or right. It is the ability to know when a law is needed, but more importantly, know when one is not"
kbub
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9/29/2014 7:34:03 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/29/2014 1:42:13 AM, neutral wrote:
At 9/27/2014 5:17:36 PM, Fly wrote:
Well, they are quite eager to demonize the Jews. The point being that they should take a long introspective look at the numerous and various skeletons in their closet. Instead, many seem to say, "Stop pointing out the skeletons in our closet!" That is not addressing issues; that is deflecting issues.

Christianity is not all that different, at its core. The major difference there is that it is PAST its medieval period.

No, actually they are not. I was in the Middle East during one of Israel's Gaza incursions. That particular bout was caused by Hamas, and the Arab officers I was serving with universally sided with Israel in that instance. After a weeks drubbing and over a thousand dead civilians, that opinion had shifted. Its is the Arabs who could separate the politics from the people, and that was in a major Arabian Headquarters filled with Arab generals whose fingers were on the pulse of power in the Middle East.

That Israel cannot find common cause with men such as these? That is not entirely the Arabs fault is it?

One could also look at the latest Gaza campaign, the murder of a Jewish settler was horrific, but it was the act of two men. Jewish extremist kidnap and burn a Palestinian Youth to death and .... Arabs are not stupid, and the recent coupling of Israeli politics with the right wing extremists is making it impossible to compromise with Israel, not the other way around.

When the Arabs, Muslims, point to issues like these its not demonization of Jews, its criticism of Israeli politics. the us verses them mentality has a lot to do with Israeli policy.

Nice response, Nuetral. Keep up the great work.
neutral
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9/29/2014 7:38:38 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/29/2014 7:25:00 AM, Zylorarchy wrote:
Always the loudest religion when defending itself, yet so quiet in regards to Islamic terrorism.

Obviously terrorists make up a really small minority of Islam, yet... instead of actually speaking out against the actions of ISIS, this group merely ignores the suffering caused by people acting in the name of Islam, and mocks the West. Nice.

The denunciation of ISIS is universal - EVEN Al Qaeda has dneounced the group.

Arab Gulf States are participating in the bombing of ISIS.

How is it that you missed this? Nice.
neutral
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9/29/2014 7:43:53 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/29/2014 7:21:22 AM, Otokage wrote:
At 9/27/2014 6:44:45 AM, neutral wrote:
https://portal.usaraf.army.mil...

Muslims this week began apologizing on social media for algebra (named after a book by mathematician Abu Ja'far Muhammad ibn Musa Al-Khwarizmi), shampoo (first brought to England by a Muslim merchant), "amazing architecture," and other innovations made possible by members of the Islamic faith throughout history. The point? That Muslims, of whom there are about 1.6 billion, shouldn't be blamed for the heinous crimes of a few.

The new hashtag seeks to address a different issue: the notion that religion bears responsibility for extremist actions at all.

A direct challenge not only to the broad smears of Islam in general in the West, but a direct challenge to atheist extremists like Hitchens, Dawkins, etc.

It looks like people who are rleigious are not buying the continuous smears, and as usual with such behavior, its breeding a backlash to correct the egregious inaccuracies.

One thing is to not blame muslims because of the actions of a few terrorists, which is something I totally agree with. Another thing is trying to exempt the Koran of guilt while it is a book that is advocating for terrorism, and many other horrendous crimes.

Kuran should be illegal as any other hate propaganda. At least release a softcore version that does not advocate to break western laws in every single verse.

Have you ever read the Koran?

I ask because, if you had, you would understand what the Prophet did. He founded a new faith, was stripped and violently expelled into the desert where he was supposed to die. Instead he united the desert tribes, and the people who exiled him rode out to exterminate him and his followers - only in the face of genocide did the Prophet pick up arm against the Pagans. Once they did, they did what was necessary to defeat their enemy. Rather than murder his enemy, he removed the pretext of their resistance by offering conversion and then, in a stunning act of mercy and humility, made Mecca, rather then Medina, the center of the new religions power.

How that equates to 'support for terrorism' seems as fundamentally off as ISIS is itself.

I find it very curious that atheists are the ones who buy what the extremists sell rather than moderates.
kbub
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9/29/2014 7:51:31 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/29/2014 7:25:00 AM, Zylorarchy wrote:
Always the loudest religion when defending itself, yet so quiet in regards to Islamic terrorism.

Obviously terrorists make up a really small minority of Islam, yet... instead of actually speaking out against the actions of ISIS, this group merely ignores the suffering caused by people acting in the name of Islam, and mocks the West. Nice.

Boo.

ISIS is a radical response to the Western occupation of the Middle East. In this case, they are not religious extremists. Their response is clothed in a religious ferver, true, but it is an essentially political and economic program, supported by investors such as Saudi Arabia.

The violence of ISIS is unbelievable, but the US can't claim it didn't have a hand in sparking its creation. The United States has invested in many programs that they later went to war against (including Al Quoeda), who destabilized the area or caused civil war or genocide. Islam is not the number 1 recruiting mechanism for terrorist groups: Drone strikes are.

All that to say, I think to trivialize large groups of people as "religious extremist" is not getting at the core of the issue. You are right in that sense. However, it is hardly the Quran's fault, or Islamic cultures'/practices' fault. It is the fault of the political climate in Syria and accross the Middle East: a climate in latge part specifically nurtured by the US and others.
kbub
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9/29/2014 7:54:25 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/29/2014 7:38:38 AM, neutral wrote:
At 9/29/2014 7:25:00 AM, Zylorarchy wrote:
Always the loudest religion when defending itself, yet so quiet in regards to Islamic terrorism.

Obviously terrorists make up a really small minority of Islam, yet... instead of actually speaking out against the actions of ISIS, this group merely ignores the suffering caused by people acting in the name of Islam, and mocks the West. Nice.

The denunciation of ISIS is universal - EVEN Al Qaeda has dneounced the group.

Arab Gulf States are participating in the bombing of ISIS.

How is it that you missed this? Nice.

+1
Fly
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9/29/2014 8:18:23 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/29/2014 7:21:22 AM, Otokage wrote:
At 9/27/2014 6:44:45 AM, neutral wrote:
https://portal.usaraf.army.mil...

Muslims this week began apologizing on social media for algebra (named after a book by mathematician Abu Ja'far Muhammad ibn Musa Al-Khwarizmi), shampoo (first brought to England by a Muslim merchant), "amazing architecture," and other innovations made possible by members of the Islamic faith throughout history. The point? That Muslims, of whom there are about 1.6 billion, shouldn't be blamed for the heinous crimes of a few.

The new hashtag seeks to address a different issue: the notion that religion bears responsibility for extremist actions at all.

A direct challenge not only to the broad smears of Islam in general in the West, but a direct challenge to atheist extremists like Hitchens, Dawkins, etc.

It looks like people who are rleigious are not buying the continuous smears, and as usual with such behavior, its breeding a backlash to correct the egregious inaccuracies.

One thing is to not blame muslims because of the actions of a few terrorists, which is something I totally agree with. Another thing is trying to exempt the Koran of guilt while it is a book that is advocating for terrorism, and many other horrendous crimes.

Kuran should be illegal as any other hate propaganda. At least release a softcore version that does not advocate to break western laws in every single verse.

The Kuran made illegal? That would go over well [sarcasm]. A book only has as much power as people give it, and making books illegal is, itself, an extremist action.
"You don't have a right to be a jerk."
--Religion Forum's hypocrite extraordinaire serving up lulz
Fly
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9/29/2014 8:24:00 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/29/2014 7:51:31 AM, kbub wrote:
At 9/29/2014 7:25:00 AM, Zylorarchy wrote:
Always the loudest religion when defending itself, yet so quiet in regards to Islamic terrorism.

Obviously terrorists make up a really small minority of Islam, yet... instead of actually speaking out against the actions of ISIS, this group merely ignores the suffering caused by people acting in the name of Islam, and mocks the West. Nice.

Boo.

ISIS is a radical response to the Western occupation of the Middle East. In this case, they are not religious extremists. Their response is clothed in a religious ferver, true, but it is an essentially political and economic program, supported by investors such as Saudi Arabia.

The violence of ISIS is unbelievable, but the US can't claim it didn't have a hand in sparking its creation. The United States has invested in many programs that they later went to war against (including Al Quoeda), who destabilized the area or caused civil war or genocide. Islam is not the number 1 recruiting mechanism for terrorist groups: Drone strikes are.

All that to say, I think to trivialize large groups of people as "religious extremist" is not getting at the core of the issue. You are right in that sense. However, it is hardly the Quran's fault, or Islamic cultures'/practices' fault. It is the fault of the political climate in Syria and accross the Middle East: a climate in latge part specifically nurtured by the US and others.

The Islamophobia in the western world is unbelievable, too, but Islam cannot claim it didn't have a hand in sparking that fear through its admittedly violent factions.

See how easy that is? Deflecting problems does not address problems...
"You don't have a right to be a jerk."
--Religion Forum's hypocrite extraordinaire serving up lulz
Otokage
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9/29/2014 9:13:49 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/29/2014 7:43:53 AM, neutral wrote:

Have you ever read the Koran?

That's an interesting question. Have you?

Quran (2:191-193) - "And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out. And Al-Fitnah [disbelief] is worse than killing...
but if they desist, then lo! Allah is forgiving and merciful. And fight them until there is no more Fitnah [disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allah] and worship is for Allah alone. But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zalimun (the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc.)" (Translation is from the Noble Quran) The historical context of this passage is not defensive warfare, since Muhammad and his Muslims had just relocated to Medina and were not under attack by their Meccan adversaries. In fact, the verses urge offensive warfare, in that Muslims are to drive Meccans out of their own city (which they later did). The use of the word "persecution" by some Muslim translators is thus disingenuous (the actual Muslim words for persecution - "idtihad" - and oppression - a variation of "z-l-m" - do not appear in the verse). The actual Arabic comes from "fitna" which can mean disbelief, or the disorder that results from unbelief or temptation. Taken as a whole, the context makes clear that violence is being authorized until "religion is for Allah" - ie. unbelievers desist in their unbelief.

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com...

Some other Quran jewels:

Quran (2:216) - "Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not."

Quran (3:56) - "As to those who reject faith, I will punish them with terrible agony in this world and in the Hereafter, nor will they have anyone to help."

Quran (3:151) - "Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers, for that they joined companions with Allah, for which He had sent no authority". This speaks directly of polytheists, yet it also includes Christians, since they believe in the Trinity (ie. what Muhammad incorrectly believed to be 'joining companions to Allah').

Quran (4:89) - "They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks." <- Tolerance!

Quran (4:95) - "Not equal are those believers who sit (at home) and receive no hurt, and those who strive and fight in the cause of Allah with their goods and their persons. Allah hath granted a grade higher to those who strive and fight with their goods and persons than to those who sit (at home). Unto all (in Faith) Hath Allah promised good: But those who strive and fight Hath He distinguished above those who sit (at home) by a special reward. <- Long life to the terrorists!

Quran (8:12) - "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them" <- Lol...

Quran (9:14) - "Fight against them so that Allah will punish them by your hands and disgrace them and give you victory over them and heal the breasts of a believing people." Humiliating and hurting non-believers not only has the blessing of Allah, but it is ordered as a means of carrying out his punishment and even "healing" the hearts of Muslims. <- No comment...

Quran (9:30) - "And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them; how they are turned away!" <- So tolerant, again.

I could go on over the 34057884290840 verses hating atheists and religious people of other religions. But let's move to another topic. Homophobia:

"Do you approach the males of humanity, leaving the wives that Allah has created for you? But you are a people who transgress" Quran (26:165-66)

But more violent lines "islam-style" are on the hadith: "When a man mounts another man, the throne of God shakes. Kill the one that is doing it and also kill the one that it is being done to."

But everyone hates homosexuals so, no news there. Let's move on to... Misogyny:

"Menstruation ... is an illness, so let women alone at such times and go not in unto them till they are cleansed." <- Right...

"Your women are a tilth for you to cultivate, so go to your tilth as ye will." <- Lol. It makes me think they we so sexualy repressed back then. Those verses can only be written by a total perv.

"Women have rights similar to those of men ... and men are a degree above them." <- Makes sense.

"Call two witness from among your men ... And if two men be not at hand, then a man and two women." <- Seriously... I'm impressed they really believed women were somehow inferior, but they never state why.

"4:11 Allah chargeth you concerning the provision for your children: to the male the equivalent of the portion of two females."

4:15 As for those of your women who are guilty of lewdness, call to witness four of you against them. And if they testify (to the truth of the allegation) then confine them to the houses until death. <- lol

4:34 Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property. So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret that which Allah hath guarded. As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them. Then if they obey you, seek not a way against them. Lo! Allah is ever High, Exalted, Great. <- It's so funny how they are like: "kill them all, but if they bow forgive them" and then they suddenly start "Allah is so gracefull and merciful!!!". It kills me lol!

Some more verses about... life in general:

5:38 "As for the thief, both male and female, cut off their hands. It is the reward of their own deeds, an exemplary punishment from Allah. Allah is Mighty, Wise."

5:33 "The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter; <- The religion of peace! Praise Allah!

65:4 "Such of your women as have passed the age of monthly courses, for them the prescribed period, if ye have any doubts, is three months, and for those who have no courses (it is the same): for those who carry (life within their wombs), their period is until they deliver their burdens: and for those who fear Allah, He will make their path easy." <- Lol, pedophilia.
neutral
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9/29/2014 9:22:38 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/29/2014 9:13:49 AM, Otokage wrote:
At 9/29/2014 7:43:53 AM, neutral wrote:

Have you ever read the Koran?

That's an interesting question. Have you?

Quran (2:191-193) - "And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out. And Al-Fitnah [disbelief] is worse than killing...
but if they desist, then lo! Allah is forgiving and merciful. And fight them until there is no more Fitnah [disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allah] and worship is for Allah alone. But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zalimun (the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc.)" (Translation is from the Noble Quran) The historical context of this passage is not defensive warfare, since Muhammad and his Muslims had just relocated to Medina and were not under attack by their Meccan adversaries. In fact, the verses urge offensive warfare, in that Muslims are to drive Meccans out of their own city (which they later did). The use of the word "persecution" by some Muslim translators is thus disingenuous (the actual Muslim words for persecution - "idtihad" - and oppression - a variation of "z-l-m" - do not appear in the verse). The actual Arabic comes from "fitna" which can mean disbelief, or the disorder that results from unbelief or temptation. Taken as a whole, the context makes clear that violence is being authorized until "religion is for Allah" - ie. unbelievers desist in their unbelief.

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com...

Some other Quran jewels:

Quran (2:216) - "Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not."

Quran (3:56) - "As to those who reject faith, I will punish them with terrible agony in this world and in the Hereafter, nor will they have anyone to help."

Quran (3:151) - "Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers, for that they joined companions with Allah, for which He had sent no authority". This speaks directly of polytheists, yet it also includes Christians, since they believe in the Trinity (ie. what Muhammad incorrectly believed to be 'joining companions to Allah').

Quran (4:89) - "They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks." <- Tolerance!

Quran (4:95) - "Not equal are those believers who sit (at home) and receive no hurt, and those who strive and fight in the cause of Allah with their goods and their persons. Allah hath granted a grade higher to those who strive and fight with their goods and persons than to those who sit (at home). Unto all (in Faith) Hath Allah promised good: But those who strive and fight Hath He distinguished above those who sit (at home) by a special reward. <- Long life to the terrorists!

Quran (8:12) - "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them" <- Lol...


Quran (9:14) - "Fight against them so that Allah will punish them by your hands and disgrace them and give you victory over them and heal the breasts of a believing people." Humiliating and hurting non-believers not only has the blessing of Allah, but it is ordered as a means of carrying out his punishment and even "healing" the hearts of Muslims. <- No comment...


Quran (9:30) - "And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them; how they are turned away!" <- So tolerant, again.

I could go on over the 34057884290840 verses hating atheists and religious people of other religions. But let's move to another topic. Homophobia:

"Do you approach the males of humanity, leaving the wives that Allah has created for you? But you are a people who transgress" Quran (26:165-66)
them the prescribed period, if ye have any doubts, is three months, and for those who have no courses (it is the same): for those who carry (life within their wombs), their period is until they deliver their burdens: and for those who fear Allah, He will make their path easy." <- Lol, pedophilia.

That is all interesting and indicative of the ability to use a proxy search to find non-contextual quotes.

By all means, for example, when someone comes out to murder you and your family, and the only way to stop them is to kill them ... what would you guidance sound like? Absent that threat, do you think the guidance to kill is still valid? I mean I have been in battle, ordered people to kill ... do you think those orders apply outside of war time context?

And you cannot make that leap ... therefor the vast majority of Muslims cannot? the vast majority of Muslims who are awrae of the need for forgiveness, mercy, repetence, tolerance (people of the book), etc? These suddenly do not exist?

So what is atheism then other than the extremist support network? Nah, you Muslims don;t know what you are talking about! ISIS clearly does and I agree with them?

Now, if I quote Chris Hitchens, genocide, or Richard Dakwins, Pedoiphilia, you will of course apply a double standard here immediately?
Demetriuscapone
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9/29/2014 9:42:50 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/29/2014 7:20:08 AM, neutral wrote:

Source?

I can't find the pew poll anymore, so I'm backing away from it. I maintain my position on islamic extremism, regardless.

The only thing All Muslims have in common is the belief that Mohammed was a Prophet of God.

How then does ISIS represent the faith better than the Islamic scholars that condemn it?

Good question. If the scholars who condemn it can find some support in scripture, then we essentially reach a stalemate. But waging war against infidels and apostates is not forbidden in islam, regardless.
Fly
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9/29/2014 9:49:07 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/29/2014 9:22:38 AM, neutral wrote:
At 9/29/2014 9:13:49 AM, Otokage wrote:
At 9/29/2014 7:43:53 AM, neutral wrote:

Have you ever read the Koran?

That's an interesting question. Have you?

Quran (2:191-193) - "And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out. And Al-Fitnah [disbelief] is worse than killing...
but if they desist, then lo! Allah is forgiving and merciful. And fight them until there is no more Fitnah [disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allah] and worship is for Allah alone. But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zalimun (the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc.)" (Translation is from the Noble Quran) The historical context of this passage is not defensive warfare, since Muhammad and his Muslims had just relocated to Medina and were not under attack by their Meccan adversaries. In fact, the verses urge offensive warfare, in that Muslims are to drive Meccans out of their own city (which they later did). The use of the word "persecution" by some Muslim translators is thus disingenuous (the actual Muslim words for persecution - "idtihad" - and oppression - a variation of "z-l-m" - do not appear in the verse). The actual Arabic comes from "fitna" which can mean disbelief, or the disorder that results from unbelief or temptation. Taken as a whole, the context makes clear that violence is being authorized until "religion is for Allah" - ie. unbelievers desist in their unbelief.

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com...

Some other Quran jewels:

Quran (2:216) - "Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not."

Quran (3:56) - "As to those who reject faith, I will punish them with terrible agony in this world and in the Hereafter, nor will they have anyone to help."

Quran (3:151) - "Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers, for that they joined companions with Allah, for which He had sent no authority". This speaks directly of polytheists, yet it also includes Christians, since they believe in the Trinity (ie. what Muhammad incorrectly believed to be 'joining companions to Allah').

Quran (4:89) - "They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks." <- Tolerance!

Quran (4:95) - "Not equal are those believers who sit (at home) and receive no hurt, and those who strive and fight in the cause of Allah with their goods and their persons. Allah hath granted a grade higher to those who strive and fight with their goods and persons than to those who sit (at home). Unto all (in Faith) Hath Allah promised good: But those who strive and fight Hath He distinguished above those who sit (at home) by a special reward. <- Long life to the terrorists!

Quran (8:12) - "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them" <- Lol...


Quran (9:14) - "Fight against them so that Allah will punish them by your hands and disgrace them and give you victory over them and heal the breasts of a believing people." Humiliating and hurting non-believers not only has the blessing of Allah, but it is ordered as a means of carrying out his punishment and even "healing" the hearts of Muslims. <- No comment...


Quran (9:30) - "And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them; how they are turned away!" <- So tolerant, again.

I could go on over the 34057884290840 verses hating atheists and religious people of other religions. But let's move to another topic. Homophobia:

"Do you approach the males of humanity, leaving the wives that Allah has created for you? But you are a people who transgress" Quran (26:165-66)
them the prescribed period, if ye have any doubts, is three months, and for those who have no courses (it is the same): for those who carry (life within their wombs), their period is until they deliver their burdens: and for those who fear Allah, He will make their path easy." <- Lol, pedophilia.

That is all interesting and indicative of the ability to use a proxy search to find non-contextual quotes.

By all means, for example, when someone comes out to murder you and your family, and the only way to stop them is to kill them ... what would you guidance sound like? Absent that threat, do you think the guidance to kill is still valid? I mean I have been in battle, ordered people to kill ... do you think those orders apply outside of war time context?

Absolutely. Because when someone comes to murder our families, we are so blessed to have a book that says we are allowed to hurt or kill in self defense. What ever did families do before Scripture told them what was permissible?

Weak sauce.

This can all be filed under "violence is permissible by God in self-defense." And guess what? It's ALL self-defense when the faithful, true believers think about it...

And you cannot make that leap ... therefor the vast majority of Muslims cannot? the vast majority of Muslims who are awrae of the need for forgiveness, mercy, repetence, tolerance (people of the book), etc? These suddenly do not exist?

So what is atheism then other than the extremist support network? Nah, you Muslims don;t know what you are talking about! ISIS clearly does and I agree with them?

Now, if I quote Chris Hitchens, genocide, or Richard Dakwins, Pedoiphilia, you will of course apply a double standard here immediately?

Changing the subject of your own thread already? File this under the timeless Pee Wee Herman retort, "I know you are, but what am I?"

There's that weak sauce again...

News flash: atheism is not a religion, not a philosophy, and not a political ideology. It does not idolize a single book or any book for that matter. This may never sink in, I'm afraid...
"You don't have a right to be a jerk."
--Religion Forum's hypocrite extraordinaire serving up lulz
debateuser
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9/29/2014 9:49:58 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/27/2014 6:44:45 AM, neutral wrote:
https://portal.usaraf.army.mil...

Muslims this week began apologizing on social media for algebra (named after a book by mathematician Abu Ja'far Muhammad ibn Musa Al-Khwarizmi), shampoo (first brought to England by a Muslim merchant), "amazing architecture," and other innovations made possible by members of the Islamic faith throughout history. The point? That Muslims, of whom there are about 1.6 billion, shouldn't be blamed for the heinous crimes of a few.

The new hashtag seeks to address a different issue: the notion that religion bears responsibility for extremist actions at all.

A direct challenge not only to the broad smears of Islam in general in the West, but a direct challenge to atheist extremists like Hitchens, Dawkins, etc.

It looks like people who are rleigious are not buying the continuous smears, and as usual with such behavior, its breeding a backlash to correct the egregious inaccuracies.

While I do agree that common Muslims who want to live in peace should not be persecuted. I have to add that at one hand there is an alliance of uncle Sam and Muslim leaders and at the other hand uncle Sam uses islamophobia to justify wars. That is why i say that Muslim countries should have atheist governments to tackle the problem created by conservatives in US who support terrorists abroad.
Also many laws in Muslim countries just spread hatred. Blasphemy issue for example.
Muslims are much more safer in atheist countries as compared to US where they have to face humiliation for just being Muslims. Do i have to tell you how many Muslims and Christians killed each other. Seems like the God believers know nothing except calling each other Satan. Wouldn't it be better if Muslims and Christians didn't bring their imaginary friends in real life and dubya does not say stupid things such as God asked him to attack Iraq.
And instead of giving your lectures here , you should start by telling your seniors at the army to not preach hatred in the army.
Hitchens, dawkins and other atheists don't persecute Muslims. They just are against fundamentalists concepts such as jihad of sword and blasphemy laws.
Scientific Errors In Religion : Atheists are right that religion is a myth

Read this topic on below link:

http://www.debate.org...
neutral
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9/29/2014 9:52:57 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/29/2014 9:49:07 AM, Fly wrote:

So what is atheism then other than the extremist support network? Nah, you Muslims don;t know what you are talking about! ISIS clearly does and I agree with them?

Now, if I quote Chris Hitchens, genocide, or Richard Dakwins, Pedoiphilia, you will of course apply a double standard here immediately?

Changing the subject of your own thread already? File this under the timeless Pee Wee Herman retort, "I know you are, but what am I?"

There's that weak sauce again...

News flash: atheism is not a religion, not a philosophy, and not a political ideology. It does not idolize a single book or any book for that matter. This may never sink in, I'm afraid...

If the subject of my thread is about Muslims hitting back at bigotry, and a bunch of hooligan atheists telling said Muslims that the extremists have the correct interpretation and the hiding behind the 'atheism is not a religion' excuse to be bigots?

Seems quite relevant.

Perhaps you would care to explain why every atheist in this thread sounds poretty much exactly alike? Sounds like you have been indoctrinated, errily similiar to the Prophet Chris Hitchens in attitude and action ... but of course, Muslims being less than human are subsumable, not atheists of course ... they have put themselves in a special category so all is good?

So its OK to hate Muslims and castigate them based on a violent minority ... but not atheists ... that would be wrong.

Kinda a very relevant point.
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9/29/2014 9:55:03 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/29/2014 9:42:50 AM, Demetriuscapone wrote:
At 9/29/2014 7:20:08 AM, neutral wrote:

Source?

I can't find the pew poll anymore, so I'm backing away from it. I maintain my position on islamic extremism, regardless.


The only thing All Muslims have in common is the belief that Mohammed was a Prophet of God.

How then does ISIS represent the faith better than the Islamic scholars that condemn it?

Good question. If the scholars who condemn it can find some support in scripture, then we essentially reach a stalemate. But waging war against infidels and apostates is not forbidden in islam, regardless.

OK, I site Chris Hitchens and his call for genocide and now insist on tarring all atheists as genocidal maniacs. I am sure you too can find some atheist nonsense to disagree, but we are essnetially at a stalemate.

The inability to recognize extremism or examine the scripture to see for yourself is not a stalemate - its the embrace of ignorance. As we see with Hitchens, you will not accept it for atheism ... but you demand it of Muslims?

Hypocrisy is what it is.
SNP1
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9/29/2014 10:15:50 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/29/2014 9:42:50 AM, Demetriuscapone wrote:
At 9/29/2014 7:20:08 AM, neutral wrote:

Source?

I can't find the pew poll anymore, so I'm backing away from it. I maintain my position on islamic extremism, regardless.

Are you sure it was a poll on apostasy?
I see a poll with similar percents on young Muslims thinking that suicide bombings are justified:
http://pewresearch.org...

Luckily, the older (30+) have a lower percent than the younger Muslims:

Muslims in the US that think suicide bombings are justified (Never justified-100):
(30+)=18%
(18-29)=31%

Muslims in Britain:
(30+)=23%
(18-29)=41%

France:
(30+)=31%
(18-29)=43%

Germany:
(30+)=14%
(18-29)=23%

Spain:
(30+)=29%
(18-29)=35%

Those statistics do not reflect a "peaceful" religion. It is not a majority that believes suicide bombings can be justified, but it is not a small minority either.
#TheApatheticNihilistPartyofAmerica
#WarOnDDO
Fly
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9/29/2014 10:22:00 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/29/2014 9:52:57 AM, neutral wrote:
At 9/29/2014 9:49:07 AM, Fly wrote:

So what is atheism then other than the extremist support network? Nah, you Muslims don;t know what you are talking about! ISIS clearly does and I agree with them?

Now, if I quote Chris Hitchens, genocide, or Richard Dakwins, Pedoiphilia, you will of course apply a double standard here immediately?

Changing the subject of your own thread already? File this under the timeless Pee Wee Herman retort, "I know you are, but what am I?"

There's that weak sauce again...

News flash: atheism is not a religion, not a philosophy, and not a political ideology. It does not idolize a single book or any book for that matter. This may never sink in, I'm afraid...

If the subject of my thread is about Muslims hitting back at bigotry, and a bunch of hooligan atheists telling said Muslims that the extremists have the correct interpretation and the hiding behind the 'atheism is not a religion' excuse to be bigots?

Seems quite relevant.

Perhaps you would care to explain why every atheist in this thread sounds poretty much exactly alike? Sounds like you have been indoctrinated, errily similiar to the Prophet Chris Hitchens in attitude and action ... but of course, Muslims being less than human are subsumable, not atheists of course ... they have put themselves in a special category so all is good?

So its OK to hate Muslims and castigate them based on a violent minority ... but not atheists ... that would be wrong.

Kinda a very relevant point.

Ah, I can already see why you are so well respected around here-- your arguments are so cogent, so on-point, and so lacking in sophistry. They are so air tight as to make most attempts at rebuttal futile. No doubt, this annoys some, but gains the respect of others who are truly honest in their reasoning. You avoid intentionally twisting people's words when constructing a rebuttal, too. That is, of course, beneath you when you are in disagreement. There is no need-- your arguments stand on their own merits and not on emotional, knee jerk reactions.

Keep up the good work. (In this context, "the good work" means "the weak sauce," and "keep up the" means "please stop boring us with."

If you equate debate.org atheists to all atheists around the world, do I have your blessing to do the same with debate.org Muslims? And Christians? Not that I would make a habit of stooping to that level. More curious than anything, really...

No need to use diplomacy or fight wars around the world... we can hash it all out right here, folks! What is this site if not a completely representative microcosm of all the issues and worldviews in the world?
"You don't have a right to be a jerk."
--Religion Forum's hypocrite extraordinaire serving up lulz