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Question for atheists

Benshapiro
Posts: 3,955
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9/29/2014 11:41:01 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Does an absolute reality exist or is reality emergent?

An absolute reality, for example, is one where a greater reality actually exists despite any consciousness capable of perceiving it. If we were all lower forms of consciousness (like ants), the stars, sky, moon, oceans, etc., would still actually exist as we currently perceive them.

An emergent reality would mean that no greater reality exists other than the greatest level of consciousness that can currently perceive that reality. If we were all lower forms of consciousness, no greater reality actually exists other than what these lower forms of consciousness could perceive.
bulproof
Posts: 25,218
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9/29/2014 11:51:56 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/29/2014 11:41:01 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
Does an absolute reality exist or is reality emergent?

An absolute reality, for example, is one where a greater reality actually exists despite any consciousness capable of perceiving it. If we were all lower forms of consciousness (like ants), the stars, sky, moon, oceans, etc., would still actually exist as we currently perceive them.

An emergent reality would mean that no greater reality exists other than the greatest level of consciousness that can currently perceive that reality. If we were all lower forms of consciousness, no greater reality actually exists other than what these lower forms of consciousness could perceive.

Why is that a question for atheists?
Do you still fail to understand what the word atheist means?
If so, that's very sad considering how often you've been told.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
bornofgod
Posts: 11,322
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9/29/2014 11:55:17 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/29/2014 11:41:01 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
Does an absolute reality exist or is reality emergent?

An absolute reality, for example, is one where a greater reality actually exists despite any consciousness capable of perceiving it. If we were all lower forms of consciousness (like ants), the stars, sky, moon, oceans, etc., would still actually exist as we currently perceive them.

An emergent reality would mean that no greater reality exists other than the greatest level of consciousness that can currently perceive that reality. If we were all lower forms of consciousness, no greater reality actually exists other than what these lower forms of consciousness could perceive.

The only reality that exists is our invisible Creator and His thoughts. God's people think they are real and that has been the strong delusion ever since God created everything within His thoughts.
Beastt
Posts: 5,135
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9/30/2014 12:50:16 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/29/2014 11:41:01 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
Does an absolute reality exist or is reality emergent?

An absolute reality, for example, is one where a greater reality actually exists despite any consciousness capable of perceiving it. If we were all lower forms of consciousness (like ants), the stars, sky, moon, oceans, etc., would still actually exist as we currently perceive them.

An emergent reality would mean that no greater reality exists other than the greatest level of consciousness that can currently perceive that reality. If we were all lower forms of consciousness, no greater reality actually exists other than what these lower forms of consciousness could perceive.

As humans we're able to delve well beyond the reality which our senses can reveal. So while there is an absolute reality which we can't directly perceive (such as the existence of atoms, the fact that apparently solid objects are merely a mist of atoms, Higgs particles and field etc.), we're not unaware of this more accurate absolute reality.
"If we believe absurdities we shall commit atrocities." -- Voltaire
BobCampus
Posts: 5
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9/30/2014 2:28:28 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
How did the Big Bang happen!? If a single particle existed forever (If there was nothing before it), that would mean it never would have happened! The explosion deadline would have been close... but it would have to be moved back because-INFINITY!!!! The deadline never would have come so the Big Bang never would have happened.
Beastt
Posts: 5,135
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9/30/2014 4:24:50 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/30/2014 2:28:28 PM, BobCampus wrote:
How did the Big Bang happen!? If a single particle existed forever (If there was nothing before it), that would mean it never would have happened! The explosion deadline would have been close... but it would have to be moved back because-INFINITY!!!! The deadline never would have come so the Big Bang never would have happened.

There are multiple ideas on this ranging from a singularity (which you referenced as "a single particle", to just energy, to a collision between brane-worlds. You should be aware that there is no explosion implied by big-bang. I know that even some poorly made documentaries use the word "explosion" but the correct word is expansion and these are quite different events. As you inflate a balloon, you're seeing an orderly growth. Everything remains in it's position relative to everything else. Only the spaced between points increases and they do so in proportion. If you inflate the balloon to the point that the latex ruptures, then you see an explosion, where pieces fly past other pieces, order is re-arranged drastically and quickly, and order is not maintained.

Your claim that there must be something before the singularity for the singularity to exist is purely incorrect. I'm not sure how one could even come to such an erroneous conclusion. The common problem is that theists are taught to always begin from a point of nothingness, which makes absolutely no sense when examining a universe which obviously isn't nothing.

And your assertion that infinite existence means no point in time can ever be reached is also erroneous. Numbers are infinite, are they not? Does that mean we can't advance from one number to another?

Evidence for big-bang included the current expansion of the universe, the cosmic microwave background radiation, residual RF signals throughout the observable universe, the WMAP Cold Spot, and the convergence of electro-magnetic, strong and weak forces at a point 13.7 billion years in the past. It's about as close to irrefutable as any event you might wish to suggest because it left a lot of evidence.
"If we believe absurdities we shall commit atrocities." -- Voltaire
Double_R
Posts: 4,886
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10/1/2014 7:40:48 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/29/2014 11:41:01 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
Does an absolute reality exist or is reality emergent?

I don't know, so let's keep exploring the possibilities till we find out.
Mhykiel
Posts: 5,987
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10/1/2014 11:31:52 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/1/2014 7:40:48 PM, Double_R wrote:
At 9/29/2014 11:41:01 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
Does an absolute reality exist or is reality emergent?

I don't know, so let's keep exploring the possibilities till we find out.

Does it matter? When I was young I worked in a restaurant, the manager told me when it comes to business, "perception is reality".

If there was an absolute reality we would only know as much of it as we could perceive. And our realities for each of us is formed from experience, perception, and (rarely) critically thought about logic.

How do you discern with reasonable surety an absolute reality without perceiving it? Because to perceive of it, could be the emergent reality being mistaken for absolute.
Double_R
Posts: 4,886
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10/3/2014 7:03:47 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/1/2014 11:31:52 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 10/1/2014 7:40:48 PM, Double_R wrote:
At 9/29/2014 11:41:01 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
Does an absolute reality exist or is reality emergent?

I don't know, so let's keep exploring the possibilities till we find out.

Does it matter? When I was young I worked in a restaurant, the manager told me when it comes to business, "perception is reality".

If there was an absolute reality we would only know as much of it as we could perceive. And our realities for each of us is formed from experience, perception, and (rarely) critically thought about logic.

How do you discern with reasonable surety an absolute reality without perceiving it? Because to perceive of it, could be the emergent reality being mistaken for absolute.

Really not sure what your point was, but it sounds like you're going down the nuclear option path.
Xenophanes
Posts: 43
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10/10/2014 11:09:57 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/29/2014 11:41:01 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
Does an absolute reality exist or is reality emergent?

An absolute reality, for example, is one where a greater reality actually exists despite any consciousness capable of perceiving it. If we were all lower forms of consciousness (like ants), the stars, sky, moon, oceans, etc., would still actually exist as we currently perceive them.

An emergent reality would mean that no greater reality exists other than the greatest level of consciousness that can currently perceive that reality. If we were all lower forms of consciousness, no greater reality actually exists other than what these lower forms of consciousness could perceive.

I subscribe to the theory presented by a crazy old man in The Hitch-hiker's Guide to the Galaxy:
We create the universe by perceiving it, so everything we perceive is specific to us.
It would be nice not to have to put down people just because they're different.
Xenophanes
Posts: 43
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10/10/2014 11:11:12 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 9/30/2014 12:50:16 AM, Beastt wrote:
At 9/29/2014 11:41:01 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
Does an absolute reality exist or is reality emergent?

An absolute reality, for example, is one where a greater reality actually exists despite any consciousness capable of perceiving it. If we were all lower forms of consciousness (like ants), the stars, sky, moon, oceans, etc., would still actually exist as we currently perceive them.

An emergent reality would mean that no greater reality exists other than the greatest level of consciousness that can currently perceive that reality. If we were all lower forms of consciousness, no greater reality actually exists other than what these lower forms of consciousness could perceive.

As humans we're able to delve well beyond the reality which our senses can reveal. So while there is an absolute reality which we can't directly perceive (such as the existence of atoms, the fact that apparently solid objects are merely a mist of atoms, Higgs particles and field etc.), we're not unaware of this more accurate absolute reality.

Then there's Schroedinger's cat. Things do whatever the hell they want when they're not being observed.
It would be nice not to have to put down people just because they're different.
Beastt
Posts: 5,135
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10/10/2014 3:29:24 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/10/2014 11:11:12 AM, Xenophanes wrote:
At 9/30/2014 12:50:16 AM, Beastt wrote:
At 9/29/2014 11:41:01 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
Does an absolute reality exist or is reality emergent?

An absolute reality, for example, is one where a greater reality actually exists despite any consciousness capable of perceiving it. If we were all lower forms of consciousness (like ants), the stars, sky, moon, oceans, etc., would still actually exist as we currently perceive them.

An emergent reality would mean that no greater reality exists other than the greatest level of consciousness that can currently perceive that reality. If we were all lower forms of consciousness, no greater reality actually exists other than what these lower forms of consciousness could perceive.

As humans we're able to delve well beyond the reality which our senses can reveal. So while there is an absolute reality which we can't directly perceive (such as the existence of atoms, the fact that apparently solid objects are merely a mist of atoms, Higgs particles and field etc.), we're not unaware of this more accurate absolute reality.

Then there's Schroedinger's cat. Things do whatever the hell they want when they're not being observed.
But one doesn't fully understand that concept until they understand what it is to "observe". When you "observe" a dog, you don't really affect the dog. You're simply gaining information from photons which were already reflecting from the animal. When you're "observing" quantum particles, you're often doing so my bouncing particles off of them, which are nearly as massive as the particles you're observing.

If you set up a double-slit experiment and mount a detector which records data, you can leave the area completely so that you're not doing any observing. And when you return and check the recorded data, it will show the same responses as if you'd been there. So many theists simply don't understand this. It has nothing to do with conscious observation. It has to do with the physics of observation.
"If we believe absurdities we shall commit atrocities." -- Voltaire