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New long debate on trinity

ChrisL
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10/2/2014 11:28:22 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
I just began a new debate with Kasmic on the trinity. People in the past have grumbled about the length of my debates so I though I'd let all who are interested know up front so you can follow it post by post. Rather than reading them all at one time.
ChrisL
Posts: 136
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10/3/2014 10:56:06 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/3/2014 7:22:07 AM, frbnsn wrote:
As a muslim, The God is one.
So I don't believe trinity.

Well you obviously make the same mistake the Quran makes. You seem to think that Christians are denying that God is one. No Christian at any point in time in history ever denied that God is one. So what is your point?
ChrisL
Posts: 136
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10/3/2014 11:03:25 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/3/2014 7:22:07 AM, frbnsn wrote:
As a muslim, The God is one.
So I don't believe trinity.

It is interesting that in the Quran in places like Surah 4:166-172 & Surah 5-68-77, the author seems to think that Christians are saying ther're is more than one God. But Christians never said that. So why does the author argue against a position that the Christians never held to? And if Allah is truly the author of the Quran, why did he not know this? These are the questions that Muslim apologist have not been willing to answer.
bulproof
Posts: 25,227
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10/3/2014 11:08:14 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
They can't even agree on the gods they worship.
But they are all very real.
Hey Quetzalcoatl.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
HPWKA
Posts: 401
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10/3/2014 11:31:16 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/3/2014 11:03:25 AM, ChrisL wrote:
At 10/3/2014 7:22:07 AM, frbnsn wrote:
As a muslim, The God is one.
So I don't believe trinity.

It is interesting that in the Quran in places like Surah 4:166-172 & Surah 5-68-77, the author seems to think that Christians are saying ther're is more than one God. But Christians never said that. So why does the author argue against a position that the Christians never held to? And if Allah is truly the author of the Quran, why did he not know this? These are the questions that Muslim apologist have not been willing to answer.

Christian believe that Jesus Christ is God, no?

From what I gather, Muslims believe that Christ was a prophet of God (like Moses/Muhammad), but nothing more.

From the Islamic point of view, holding both Jesus and a distinct "God" as God, would be believing in multiple Gods.
Feelings are the fleeting fancy of fools.
The search for truth in a world of lies is the only thing that matters.
ChrisL
Posts: 136
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10/3/2014 4:20:29 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/3/2014 11:31:16 AM, HPWKA wrote:
At 10/3/2014 11:03:25 AM, ChrisL wrote:
At 10/3/2014 7:22:07 AM, frbnsn wrote:
As a muslim, The God is one.
So I don't believe trinity.

It is interesting that in the Quran in places like Surah 4:166-172 & Surah 5-68-77, the author seems to think that Christians are saying ther're is more than one God. But Christians never said that. So why does the author argue against a position that the Christians never held to? And if Allah is truly the author of the Quran, why did he not know this? These are the questions that Muslim apologist have not been willing to answer.

Christian believe that Jesus Christ is God, no?

From what I gather, Muslims believe that Christ was a prophet of God (like Moses/Muhammad), but nothing more.

From the Islamic point of view, holding both Jesus and a distinct "God" as God, would be believing in multiple Gods.

No it would not be. The mistake you are making is, yiu are identifying Jesus as the being of God. There is only one being of God. Jesus is just on of three persons who share in that nature. When Christians say Jesus is God, what we mean is that he deity. He is one person of God. To better understand this, read my opening statement in my debate. I think it will clear up your confusion.
annanicole
Posts: 19,785
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10/3/2014 5:51:02 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/2/2014 11:28:22 PM, ChrisL wrote:
I just began a new debate with Kasmic on the trinity. People in the past have grumbled about the length of my debates so I though I'd let all who are interested know up front so you can follow it post by post. Rather than reading them all at one time.

Why don't you post the link? Or did you?
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
ChrisL
Posts: 136
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10/3/2014 6:03:14 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/3/2014 5:51:02 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 10/2/2014 11:28:22 PM, ChrisL wrote:
I just began a new debate with Kasmic on the trinity. People in the past have grumbled about the length of my debates so I though I'd let all who are interested know up front so you can follow it post by post. Rather than reading them all at one time.

Why don't you post the link? Or did you?

Wow! Thx. I copied it but I must have forgot to paste it on my post. Here it is...

http://www.debate.org...
HPWKA
Posts: 401
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10/3/2014 6:13:24 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
The mistake you are making is, yiu are identifying Jesus as the being of God. There is only one being of God. Jesus is just on of three persons who share in that nature. When Christians say Jesus is God, what we mean is that he deity. He is one person of God. To better understand this, read my opening statement in my debate. I think it will clear up your confusion.

I read your opening statement, and it doesn't really clear anything up.

Muslims believe that God is a single entity, and that he neither begets, nor is he begotten; he can't be compared to his creations.

The idea that Jesus is the "son" to God's "father" or that Jesus shares some part of God's divinity, or that he's a part of God, doesn't make any difference to a Muslim. All these concepts are in complete contradiction to what they consider to be monotheism (belief in a single God, shared by the Muslims and Jews).
Feelings are the fleeting fancy of fools.
The search for truth in a world of lies is the only thing that matters.
LifeMeansGodIsGood
Posts: 2,744
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10/3/2014 6:26:57 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/3/2014 11:31:16 AM, HPWKA wrote:
At 10/3/2014 11:03:25 AM, ChrisL wrote:
At 10/3/2014 7:22:07 AM, frbnsn wrote:
As a muslim, The God is one.
So I don't believe trinity.

It is interesting that in the Quran in places like Surah 4:166-172 & Surah 5-68-77, the author seems to think that Christians are saying ther're is more than one God. But Christians never said that. So why does the author argue against a position that the Christians never held to? And if Allah is truly the author of the Quran, why did he not know this? These are the questions that Muslim apologist have not been willing to answer.

Christian believe that Jesus Christ is God, no?

From what I gather, Muslims believe that Christ was a prophet of God (like Moses/Muhammad), but nothing more.

From the Islamic point of view, holding both Jesus and a distinct "God" as God, would be believing in multiple Gods.

God expresses Himself in Three Persons. God Himself took on the body of a Man to pay for man's sins so He can be just to forgive all who believe on Him and He is just to condemn to Hell all who reject Him who Created them and then died in their place to save them from Hell. God the Faher, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit, these three are One. The LORD our God is one Lord. As sinners, the only way to know God is through God the Son who took our sin on Himself to buy us back from Hell so our debt is paid by God Himself and He is satisfied that Justice has been executed agaisnt us on Himself so we can be pardoned if we receive Jesus the Creator as our Savioiur.

The death of a created being is not enough to pay for your sin. That created being would have to remain in Hell in your place so you could be pardoned, and then what good is it? God loses one created being to save another, There is no point in the death of a created being except as a representative picture of the promised Redeemer, God Himself in the form of a man came down from Heaven to pay for the sins of man with His sinless blood so man can be reunited with God through Him.
The faith of God is logical. God is the Just One and has the right to deny life from you and leave you in eternal death in Hell. Only His blood payment for your sin gives Him reason to forgive you, He took your death so that you can be restored to eternal life from the sin, death, and Hell you are lost to without Jesus Christ.
jh1234lnew
Posts: 225
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10/3/2014 6:29:25 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/3/2014 4:20:29 PM, ChrisL wrote:
At 10/3/2014 11:31:16 AM, HPWKA wrote:
At 10/3/2014 11:03:25 AM, ChrisL wrote:
At 10/3/2014 7:22:07 AM, frbnsn wrote:
As a muslim, The God is one.
So I don't believe trinity.

It is interesting that in the Quran in places like Surah 4:166-172 & Surah 5-68-77, the author seems to think that Christians are saying ther're is more than one God. But Christians never said that. So why does the author argue against a position that the Christians never held to? And if Allah is truly the author of the Quran, why did he not know this? These are the questions that Muslim apologist have not been willing to answer.

Christian believe that Jesus Christ is God, no?

From what I gather, Muslims believe that Christ was a prophet of God (like Moses/Muhammad), but nothing more.

From the Islamic point of view, holding both Jesus and a distinct "God" as God, would be believing in multiple Gods.

No it would not be. The mistake you are making is, yiu are identifying Jesus as the being of God. There is only one being of God. Jesus is just on of three persons who share in that nature. When Christians say Jesus is God, what we mean is that he deity. He is one person of God. To better understand this, read my opening statement in my debate. I think it will clear up your confusion.

The trinity, according to most Christian sects:
Father = God
Son = God
Holy Spirit = God
Father =/= Son
Son =/= Holy Spirit
Holy Spirit =/= Father.

So, let's fill in the blanks. Let's evaluate the statement

"Father =/= Son"

As Father = God, the statement can be changed to:

"God =/= Son"

As Son = God, the statement can be changed to:

"God =/= God".

However, as the Christian God is monotheistic, God cannot not equal God.

The Bible does not make any references to the trinity other than a single sentence which appears to have been added later on. (The early versions of the Bible do not have that sentence).
LifeMeansGodIsGood
Posts: 2,744
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10/3/2014 6:41:45 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/3/2014 4:20:29 PM, ChrisL wrote:
At 10/3/2014 11:31:16 AM, HPWKA wrote:
At 10/3/2014 11:03:25 AM, ChrisL wrote:
At 10/3/2014 7:22:07 AM, frbnsn wrote:
As a muslim, The God is one.
So I don't believe trinity.

It is interesting that in the Quran in places like Surah 4:166-172 & Surah 5-68-77, the author seems to think that Christians are saying ther're is more than one God. But Christians never said that. So why does the author argue against a position that the Christians never held to? And if Allah is truly the author of the Quran, why did he not know this? These are the questions that Muslim apologist have not been willing to answer.

Christian believe that Jesus Christ is God, no?

From what I gather, Muslims believe that Christ was a prophet of God (like Moses/Muhammad), but nothing more.

From the Islamic point of view, holding both Jesus and a distinct "God" as God, would be believing in multiple Gods.

No it would not be. The mistake you are making is, yiu are identifying Jesus as the being of God. There is only one being of God. Jesus is just on of three persons who share in that nature. When Christians say Jesus is God, what we mean is that he deity. He is one person of God. To better understand this, read my opening statement in my debate. I think it will clear up your confusion.

Jesus is God the Son, God the Man, the Son of God, the Son of Man. He is God. God the Father is God. God the Holy Spirit is God. You are weakening your own arguments by saying He is deity and not God. You have to give account to God for how you say things. Are you sure you want to say Jesus is not God?
You forget Thomas who bowed after doubting and said "My LORD, (here he referrs to jesus as YWHY) and My God" as he worshipped Jesus, and Jesus blessed him for it by saying "because you have seen, you have believed. Blessed are they who have not seen, yet have believed" (pardon me if the quote here is not exact, I have forgotten all of the exact memorizaitions)This is one of many places Jesus encouraged people to believe He is God. As a Baptist, i thought you would know that...maybe I'm not hearing you right. Do you really believe Jesus is less than God? It's not good to try to appease people by watering down the Word of God leaving room for doubt.
LifeMeansGodIsGood
Posts: 2,744
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10/3/2014 6:44:29 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/3/2014 4:20:29 PM, ChrisL wrote:
At 10/3/2014 11:31:16 AM, HPWKA wrote:
At 10/3/2014 11:03:25 AM, ChrisL wrote:
At 10/3/2014 7:22:07 AM, frbnsn wrote:
As a muslim, The God is one.
So I don't believe trinity.

It is interesting that in the Quran in places like Surah 4:166-172 & Surah 5-68-77, the author seems to think that Christians are saying ther're is more than one God. But Christians never said that. So why does the author argue against a position that the Christians never held to? And if Allah is truly the author of the Quran, why did he not know this? These are the questions that Muslim apologist have not been willing to answer.

Christian believe that Jesus Christ is God, no?

From what I gather, Muslims believe that Christ was a prophet of God (like Moses/Muhammad), but nothing more.

From the Islamic point of view, holding both Jesus and a distinct "God" as God, would be believing in multiple Gods.

No it would not be. The mistake you are making is, yiu are identifying Jesus as the being of God. There is only one being of God. Jesus is just on of three persons who share in that nature. When Christians say Jesus is God, what we mean is that he deity. He is one person of God. To better understand this, read my opening statement in my debate. I think it will clear up your confusion.

Ok, I guess I was not quite reading you right. Jesus is God. He is no less than God. God the Father is God and is no less than God. The Holy Spirit is God and is no less than God. These Three are One. The LORD our God is one Lord. Amen?
HPWKA
Posts: 401
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10/3/2014 6:53:27 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Yeah, all that trinity stuff being described above me hold no water for Muslims (or Jews for that matter). Muslims believe Jesus was God's messenger (like Muhammad/Moses), and was understood as such during that time.

They believe that it was only through corruption/revision of the Bible, that the idea of a "holly trinity" began to supplant the strict monotheism of one God, that Christianity naturally shares with Islam and Judaism.

Though if I'm correct, I don't believe Jews believe Jesus was even a prophet.
Feelings are the fleeting fancy of fools.
The search for truth in a world of lies is the only thing that matters.
ChrisL
Posts: 136
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10/3/2014 10:02:34 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/3/2014 6:13:24 PM, HPWKA wrote:
The mistake you are making is, yiu are identifying Jesus as the being of God. There is only one being of God. Jesus is just on of three persons who share in that nature. When Christians say Jesus is God, what we mean is that he deity. He is one person of God. To better understand this, read my opening statement in my debate. I think it will clear up your confusion.

I read your opening statement, and it doesn't really clear anything up.

Muslims believe that God is a single entity, and that he neither begets, nor is he begotten; he can't be compared to his creations.

The idea that Jesus is the "son" to God's "father" or that Jesus shares some part of God's divinity, or that he's a part of God, doesn't make any difference to a Muslim. All these concepts are in complete contradiction to what they consider to be monotheism (belief in a single God, shared by the Muslims and Jews).

Once again, with all due respect, your wrong.Monotheism is the bedrock to the doctrine of the trinity. It in no way contradicts it. The problem is that Muslims assume Unitarianism with monotheism. They treat those concepts as if they mean the same thing. But they don't. Unitarianism is a oneness in person. Monotheism is a oneness in being. So Muslims may feel that these concepts are contradictory to monotheism, but that is only because they add to the definition of that word a property that is unwarranted(even in the Quran), and unnecessary. Monotheism is strictly defined as the belief in one God. Trinitarianism affirms that truth unequivocally.
Composer
Posts: 5,858
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10/3/2014 10:12:00 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/3/2014 6:26:57 PM, LifeMeansGodIsGood wrote:
God expresses Himself in Three Persons.
Says who about which god?

At 10/3/2014 6:26:57 PM, LifeMeansGodIsGood wrote:
God Himself took on the body of a Man to pay for man's sins so He can be just to forgive all who believe on Him and He is just to condemn to Hell all who reject Him who Created them and then died in their place to save them from Hell.
Deut. 24:16 & Ezek. 18:20 refute you!
Composer
Posts: 5,858
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10/3/2014 10:19:50 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/3/2014 4:20:29 PM, ChrisL wrote:
At 10/3/2014 11:31:16 AM, HPWKA wrote:
At 10/3/2014 11:03:25 AM, ChrisL wrote:
At 10/3/2014 7:22:07 AM, frbnsn wrote:
As a muslim, The God is one.
So I don't believe trinity.

It is interesting that in the Quran in places like Surah 4:166-172 & Surah 5-68-77, the author seems to think that Christians are saying ther're is more than one God. But Christians never said that. So why does the author argue against a position that the Christians never held to? And if Allah is truly the author of the Quran, why did he not know this? These are the questions that Muslim apologist have not been willing to answer.

Christian believe that Jesus Christ is God, no?

From what I gather, Muslims believe that Christ was a prophet of God (like Moses/Muhammad), but nothing more.

From the Islamic point of view, holding both Jesus and a distinct "God" as God, would be believing in multiple Gods.

No it would not be. The mistake you are making is, yiu are identifying Jesus as the being of God. There is only one being of God. Jesus is just on of three persons who share in that nature. When Christians say Jesus is God, what we mean is that he deity. He is one person of God. To better understand this, read my opening statement in my debate. I think it will clear up your confusion.

At 10/3/2014 6:41:45 PM, LifeMeansGodIsGood wrote:
Jesus is God the Son, God the Man, the Son of God, the Son of Man. He is God.
"At first the Christian faith was not Trinitarian"It was not so in the apostolic and sub-apostolic ages, as reflected in the New Testament and other early Christian writings" (Encyclopedia of Religion and Ethics, ed. James Hastings, 1922, Vol. 12, p. 461).

&

"The formulation "One God in three Persons" was not solidly established, certainly not fully assimilated into Christian life and its profession of faith, prior to the end of the 4th century.... Among the Apostolic Fathers, there had been nothing even remotely approaching such a mentality or perspective" (New Catholic Encyclopedia, 1967, Vol. 14, p. 299).

"Fourth-century Trinitarianism did not reflect accurately early Christian teaching regarding the nature of God; it was, on the contrary a deviation from this teaching" (The Encyclopedia Americana, p. 1956, p. 2941).

"When the New Testament writers speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of Him nor do they think of Him as God" (J.M. Creed, The Divinity of Jesus Christ, pp. 122-123).

"Karl Rahner [leading Roman Catholic spokesman] points out with so much emphasis that the Son in the New Testament is never described as "ho theos" [the one God]" (A.T. Hanson, Grace and Truth, p. 66).

"The clear evidence of John is that Jesus refuses the claim to be God"Jesus vigorously denied the blasphemy of being God or His substitute" (J.A.T. Robinson, Twelve More New Testament Studies, pp. 175, 176).

"When [first-century Christians] assigned Jesus such honorific titles as Christ, Son of Man, Son of God and Lord, these were ways of saying not that he was God but that he did God"s work" (Bulletin of the John Rylands Library, 1967-68, Vol. 50., p. 250).

"Jesus is never identified simpliciter [absolutely] with God, since the early Christians were not likely to confuse Jesus with God the Father" (Howard Marshall, "Jesus as Lord: The Development of the Concept," in Eschatology in the New Testament, Hendrickson, p. 144).

"We are not to suppose that the apostles identified Christ with Jehovah; there were passages which made this impossible, for instance Psalm 110:1, Malachi 3:1" (Charles Bigg, D.D., Regius Professor of Ecclesiastical History, Oxford, in International Critical Commentary on Peter and Jude, T&T Clark, 1910, p. 99).

"Christendom has done away with Christianity without being quite aware of it" (Soren Kierkegaard, cited in Time magazine, Dec. 16, 1946, p. 64).

"As far as the New Testament is concerned one does not find in it an actual doctrine of the Trinity" (Bernard Lohse, A Short History of Christian Doctrine, Philadelphia: Fortress Press, 1966, p. 38).

"No Apostle would have dreamed of thinking that there are three divine Persons" (Emil Brunner, Christian Doctrine of God, Dogmatics, Vol. 1, p. 226).

&

The Trinity Admitted to be False
"The propositions constitutive of the dogma of the Trinity were not drawn from the New Testament and could not be expressed in New Testament terms. They were the products of reason speculating on a revelation to faith. . . they were only formed through centuries of effort, only elaborated by the aid of the conceptions and formulated in the terms of Greek and Roman metaphysics." (Source: Encyclopedia Britannica)
ChrisL
Posts: 136
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10/3/2014 10:30:21 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/3/2014 6:41:45 PM, LifeMeansGodIsGood wrote:
At 10/3/2014 4:20:29 PM, ChrisL wrote:
At 10/3/2014 11:31:16 AM, HPWKA wrote:
At 10/3/2014 11:03:25 AM, ChrisL wrote:
At 10/3/2014 7:22:07 AM, frbnsn wrote:
As a muslim, The God is one.
So I don't believe trinity.

It is interesting that in the Quran in places like Surah 4:166-172 & Surah 5-68-77, the author seems to think that Christians are saying ther're is more than one God. But Christians never said that. So why does the author argue against a position that the Christians never held to? And if Allah is truly the author of the Quran, why did he not know this? These are the questions that Muslim apologist have not been willing to answer.

Christian believe that Jesus Christ is God, no?

From what I gather, Muslims believe that Christ was a prophet of God (like Moses/Muhammad), but nothing more.

From the Islamic point of view, holding both Jesus and a distinct "God" as God, would be believing in multiple Gods.

No it would not be. The mistake you are making is, yiu are identifying Jesus as the being of God. There is only one being of God. Jesus is just on of three persons who share in that nature. When Christians say Jesus is God, what we mean is that he deity. He is one person of God. To better understand this, read my opening statement in my debate. I think it will clear up your confusion.

Jesus is God the Son, God the Man, the Son of God, the Son of Man. He is God. God the Father is God. God the Holy Spirit is God. You are weakening your own arguments by saying He is deity and not God. You have to give account to God for how you say things. Are you sure you want to say Jesus is not God?
You forget Thomas who bowed after doubting and said "My LORD, (here he referrs to jesus as YWHY) and My God" as he worshipped Jesus, and Jesus blessed him for it by saying "because you have seen, you have believed. Blessed are they who have not seen, yet have believed" (pardon me if the quote here is not exact, I have forgotten all of the exact memorizaitions)This is one of many places Jesus encouraged people to believe He is God. As a Baptist, i thought you would know that...maybe I'm not hearing you right. Do you really believe Jesus is less than God? It's not good to try to appease people by watering down the Word of God leaving room for doubt.

Wow! For future references you should probably check with me before accusing me of "watering down the word of God" to appease people. Anyone who knows me would read that statement and laugh. I have done an entire debate arguing that Jesus is YHWH. The title is actually "Is Jesus Jehovah or a seperate ontological being".Go read it. I would never deny the full deity of My LORD!

So it is obviously the other option which is, that you are not hearing me right. The person I was responding to was using the phrase "Jesus is God" as a stament of identity. He then built his argument ontop of that. But when orthodox Christians use that stament, we use it as a stament of predicate. Jesus cannot be the identity of God because God is a trinity. Jesus is only one person, namely the Son. So my statement was orthodox. I think you have understood the phrase "Jesus is God" to affirm something other than what it's always been use to affirm. It is a phrase that tells us something about Jesus. Particularly that he is, as to his nature, God. It is not identifying him as the entire being of God. You would play right into the hands of a oneness pentacostol with that understanding. I hope this cleared things up.
HPWKA
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10/3/2014 10:33:48 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Once again, with all due respect, your wrong.Monotheism is the bedrock to the doctrine of the trinity. It in no way contradicts it. The problem is that Muslims assume Unitarianism with monotheism. They treat those concepts as if they mean the same thing. But they don't. Unitarianism is a oneness in person. Monotheism is a oneness in being. So Muslims may feel that these concepts are contradictory to monotheism, but that is only because they add to the definition of that word a property that is unwarranted(even in the Quran), and unnecessary. Monotheism is strictly defined as the belief in one God. Trinitarianism affirms that truth unequivocally.

You can dress it up however you want, but Muslims and Jews, as strict monotheists, will never accept a concept that equates Jesus with any sort of non-human/divine status.

For them there are four classes of beings. There is the one God, there are angles/demons, and there are humans. Jesus falls summarily into the human category, and per Islam-Judeo tenants, cannot have any association with the God category.
Feelings are the fleeting fancy of fools.
The search for truth in a world of lies is the only thing that matters.
ChrisL
Posts: 136
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10/3/2014 10:54:48 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/3/2014 10:33:48 PM, HPWKA wrote:
Once again, with all due respect, your wrong.Monotheism is the bedrock to the doctrine of the trinity. It in no way contradicts it. The problem is that Muslims assume Unitarianism with monotheism. They treat those concepts as if they mean the same thing. But they don't. Unitarianism is a oneness in person. Monotheism is a oneness in being. So Muslims may feel that these concepts are contradictory to monotheism, but that is only because they add to the definition of that word a property that is unwarranted(even in the Quran), and unnecessary. Monotheism is strictly defined as the belief in one God. Trinitarianism affirms that truth unequivocally.

You can dress it up however you want, but Muslims and Jews, as strict monotheists, will never accept a concept that equates Jesus with any sort of non-human/divine status.

For them there are four classes of beings. There is the one God, there are angles/demons, and there are humans. Jesus falls summarily into the human category, and per Islam-Judeo tenants, cannot have any association with the God category.

Ok. I'll try one last time. If a Christian says that there is only being of God(monotheism) but that one God exist in three persons(trinitarianism), you tell me where the contradiction is of monotheism. Muslims misunderstanding the doctrine of the trinity and the definitiin of monotheism and then claiming it contradics monotheism, on the basis of their misunderstandings proves nothing. And that was my whole point in bringing up the ayat(Quranic verses) from Surah 4 and 5. The misunderstandings Muslims have about the trinity today, stem from the misunderstandings of the author of the Quran had on it. Every ayah(Quran verse) in the Quran that Muslims claim reject trinitarinaism actually only refute polytheism. No Trinitarian ever believed in polytheism. So either the Arthur of the Quran was ignorant of the trinity(which would mean it was not God's words), or never dealt with trinitarianism at all. Take your pick.
bornofgod
Posts: 11,322
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10/3/2014 11:10:03 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/2/2014 11:28:22 PM, ChrisL wrote:
I just began a new debate with Kasmic on the trinity. People in the past have grumbled about the length of my debates so I though I'd let all who are interested know up front so you can follow it post by post. Rather than reading them all at one time.

According to the knowledge God has taught directly to me and the prophecies from the old prophets who wrote for Him, there's no such thing as a triune God.

Isaiah 40
28: Have you not known? Have you not heard? The LORD is the everlasting God, the Creator of the ends of the earth. He does not faint or grow weary, his understanding is unsearchable.

Isaiah 44
6: Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: "I am the first and I am the last; besides me there is no god.
24: Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer, who formed you from the womb: "I am the LORD, who made all things, who stretched out the heavens alone, who spread out the earth -- Who was with me? --

Isaiah 45
5: I am the LORD, and there is no other, besides me there is no God; I gird you, though you do not know me,
6: that men may know, from the rising of the sun and from the west, that there is none besides me; I am the LORD, and there is no other.
Composer
Posts: 5,858
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10/4/2014 2:29:42 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/2/2014 11:28:22 PM, ChrisL wrote:
I just began a new debate with Kasmic on the trinity. People in the past have grumbled about the length of my debates so I though I'd let all who are interested know up front so you can follow it post by post. Rather than reading them all at one time.
In reality, the entire trinitarian ideology can unequivocally be decimated in about 2 Posts as I shows already No. 1.

This is Post Number 2.

IF 100% Natural Orange Juice is tampered with or manipulated or chemicals added, then it isn't the Original, but a corrupted form!

Same goes for the Non-Original trinitarian Story book jebus!

Factual statement 1.

IF jebus were a 100% Fully man, then there is NO room for anything else e.g. a god!

&

Factual statement 2.

The former Bishop of Woolwich, Dr. Robinson, in his book, "Honest to God," in a passage where he was explaining how most claiming to be xtians view jebus:

"Jesus was not a man born and bred, he was God for a limited period taking part in a charade. He looked like a man, but underneath he was God dressed up - like Father Christmas."

Many church people find the bishop's reference to Father Christmas offensive. Yet apart from that, they agree that this is a fair statement of church teaching. If jebus was really a god, or even a mighty angel who once lived in heaven, then it was never a real man, but a Divine Person dressed up in human flesh.

NB: If jebus was really a god, or even a mighty angel who once lived in heaven, then it was never a real man, but a Divine Person dressed up in human flesh.

Hence Johnny Come Lately trinitarians swallow corrupted Orange Juice and believe in Father Xmas as demonstrated!

QED
ChrisL
Posts: 136
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10/4/2014 10:46:56 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/4/2014 2:29:42 AM, Composer wrote:
At 10/2/2014 11:28:22 PM, ChrisL wrote:
I just began a new debate with Kasmic on the trinity. People in the past have grumbled about the length of my debates so I though I'd let all who are interested know up front so you can follow it post by post. Rather than reading them all at one time.
In reality, the entire trinitarian ideology can unequivocally be decimated in about 2 Posts as I shows already No. 1.

This is Post Number 2.

IF 100% Natural Orange Juice is tampered with or manipulated or chemicals added, then it isn't the Original, but a corrupted form!

Same goes for the Non-Original trinitarian Story book jebus!

Factual statement 1.

IF jebus were a 100% Fully man, then there is NO room for anything else e.g. a god!

&

Factual statement 2.

The former Bishop of Woolwich, Dr. Robinson, in his book, "Honest to God," in a passage where he was explaining how most claiming to be xtians view jebus:

"Jesus was not a man born and bred, he was God for a limited period taking part in a charade. He looked like a man, but underneath he was God dressed up - like Father Christmas."

Many church people find the bishop's reference to Father Christmas offensive. Yet apart from that, they agree that this is a fair statement of church teaching. If jebus was really a god, or even a mighty angel who once lived in heaven, then it was never a real man, but a Divine Person dressed up in human flesh.

NB: If jebus was really a god, or even a mighty angel who once lived in heaven, then it was never a real man, but a Divine Person dressed up in human flesh.

Hence Johnny Come Lately trinitarians swallow corrupted Orange Juice and believe in Father Xmas as demonstrated!

QED

Composer. If you can't even have enough respect for believers to properly spell their Lord's name and not call Him story book Jesus, why should we( & I) take heed to anything you type? It's kinda hard to take a guy like you seriously? Everyone has to take time out of their lives to post on this forum. Why spend it on someone who doesn't even respects them and is constantly mocking their beliefs?
Composer
Posts: 5,858
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10/5/2014 1:52:05 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/4/2014 2:29:42 AM, Composer wrote:
At 10/2/2014 11:28:22 PM, ChrisL wrote:
I just began a new debate with Kasmic on the trinity. People in the past have grumbled about the length of my debates so I though I'd let all who are interested know up front so you can follow it post by post. Rather than reading them all at one time.
In reality, the entire trinitarian ideology can unequivocally be decimated in about 2 Posts as I shows already No. 1.

This is Post Number 2.

IF 100% Natural Orange Juice is tampered with or manipulated or chemicals added, then it isn't the Original, but a corrupted form!

Same goes for the Non-Original trinitarian Story book jebus!

Factual statement 1.

IF jebus were a 100% Fully man, then there is NO room for anything else e.g. a god!

&

Factual statement 2.

The former Bishop of Woolwich, Dr. Robinson, in his book, "Honest to God," in a passage where he was explaining how most claiming to be xtians view jebus:

"Jesus was not a man born and bred, he was God for a limited period taking part in a charade. He looked like a man, but underneath he was God dressed up - like Father Christmas."

Many church people find the bishop's reference to Father Christmas offensive. Yet apart from that, they agree that this is a fair statement of church teaching. If jebus was really a god, or even a mighty angel who once lived in heaven, then it was never a real man, but a Divine Person dressed up in human flesh.

NB: If jebus was really a god, or even a mighty angel who once lived in heaven, then it was never a real man, but a Divine Person dressed up in human flesh.

Hence Johnny Come Lately trinitarians swallow corrupted Orange Juice and believe in Father Xmas as demonstrated!

QED

At 10/4/2014 10:46:56 AM, ChrisL wrote:
Composer. If you can't even have enough respect for believers to properly spell their Lord's name and not call Him story book Jesus,
You aren't paying attention knave!

I wrote Story book jebus '.

At 10/4/2014 10:46:56 AM, ChrisL wrote:
why should we( & I) take heed to anything you type? It's kinda hard to take a guy like you seriously? Everyone has to take time out of their lives to post on this forum. Why spend it on someone who doesn't even respects them and is constantly mocking their beliefs?
Because beliefs like yours that others have programmed you to regurgitate are only worthy of contempt & mockery, and your only recourse like theirs, in lieu of a shred of credibility, is to judge my methods and attack my successful method of exposing frauds like YOU!

Much better luck next times should you wish to try again and actually provide some substance to your ideology apart from your brainwashed BS and failures!

NB: YOU are commanded to - II Timothy 4:5:
But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry.

So stop your verbal diarrhea and litany of excuses and get on with it or remain the fraud you & your supposed associates currently manifest yourself as!

Your vindicated Mentor & Saviour Moi!
DPMartin
Posts: 1,096
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10/5/2014 10:54:00 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/3/2014 11:08:14 AM, bulproof wrote:
They can't even agree on the gods they worship.
But they are all very real.
Hey Quetzalcoatl.

Look another so called atheist that"s going to show use how stupid we are and how smart it is, by being in the religion section for most of 9,253 postings and hasn"t learned that the muslim god and the Christian God are not the same god. Demonstrating the expertise required, to show what one doesn"t believe.
DPMartin
Posts: 1,096
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10/6/2014 11:26:20 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
I am not sure what the original theology of the trinity is, don"t care, nor do I care about isms of men.

And there"s no "formation of", in begotten of. You forget that God is referred to as the LORD God, or how many time did He say it to the Israelites in the dessert, the LORD your God, but that is the KJV translation of YHWH Elohim. Hence Elohim (God, Creator and Judge) is in the first chapter of Genesis but as soon as God rests, (let all rest on His Word that is Life that gives Life) it is understood by the translators of KJV as LORD, LORD over all that is, that isn"t God.

And according to John the same that Moses writes as YHWH or (KJV-LORD)
John:
1: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2: The same was in the beginning with God.
3: All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Which is evident in again chapter one of Genesis, God (Elohim, Creator and Judge) speaks and then its fulfilled to the satisfaction of God (He sees, and or declares that it is good).

But in the case of three is one, it"s not that complicated. Though there are man"s versions as theologies and isms. In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. And the next verse states that God"s Presence comes into His creation over the waters, and then He speaks in His Presence.

Hence the basic of what lives is present, and it speaks its will in its presence. Therefore what is spoken is of the speaker, in the speaker"s presence, and all speech isn"t always the vibration of air, and the expression of will, isn"t always heard with physical ears.

Hence God being in Heaven not in earth though it is His footstool. Is present in what, that is in the earth? In the case of Jesus Christ was it the Son of man named Jesus of Nazareth? And what does the last verse in Luke chapter three say Adam was? Also God, God"s Word and God"s Presence is known as Father Son and Holy Spirit. Hence Jesus also says His Father is in Him and He is in the Father them as One, which would have to include the Presence of God (Holy Spirit):

Jn:14:10: Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

Jn:14:11: Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.

And Jesus also says His Words are Spirit and Life:

Jn:6:63: It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

These are not metaphors for a better life in the flesh that is of the flesh, it is fulfillment in the Life of Christ that is of God, that is given to us through and in the name given, Jesus Christ.

And there is another revelation in scripture that was fulfilled in Christ. Abraham (the Father) Isaac the chosen son who was offered, and Jacob renamed Israel of which the Israelites are the children of, as per the LORD their God in the wilderness. Not to even mention the twelve sons of Israel. Therefore the Father Son and Holy Spirit (of which the Children of God are born of as per John chapter three) was the will of God expressed in the lives of Abraham and chosen descendants.

So again to be clear, there is God (Elohim- Creator and Judge) YHWH, KJV-LORD the Word of God, and the Spirit of God, and Jesus said God is a Spirit therefore God"s presence. As in God speaks His Will in His Presence, but He must be Present for you to hear. No different then any other living thing He has given life to, but that His Presence is so powerful it"s the power of God, and His Word is so powerful it"s the power of God and His will is so powerful it"s the power of God. Hence all three to the rest of creation is God, and under His Will, Word or Presence.

Also in the case of Jesus Christ don"t confuse the Son of Man with the Son of God. Paul teaches that we are the dwelling of God, hence the Presence of God hence the Spirit of God (Holy Spirit) so understanding Heaven and earth as God knows it, can be seen when Jesus states:
Lk:17:20: And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
21: Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

Its simple, Jesus is the Word of God made flesh, that is God, not the flesh, (Son of man) the Word of God, (Son of God) in the flesh, to use because all creation knows God, God"s Will and His Presence through His Word. No one knows the Father but through the Son, correct?
ethang5
Posts: 4,104
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10/7/2014 9:55:46 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
ChrisL - Everyone has to take time out of their lives to post on this forum. Why spend it on someone who doesn't even respects them and is constantly mocking their beliefs?
DPMartin - Look another so called atheist that"s going to show use how stupid we are and how smart it is, by being in the religion section for most of 9,253 postings and hasn"t learned that the muslim god and the Christian God are not the same god.

Look Gentle Readers, two posters find our Trolls without any help from anyone else on the Board.

Guys, as you are now finding out, bulproof (bully) and composer are trolls. You won't get logic, respect, or class from them. Respond to them with this knowledge in mind.
DPMartin
Posts: 1,096
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10/7/2014 10:09:51 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/7/2014 9:55:46 AM, ethang5 wrote:
ChrisL - Everyone has to take time out of their lives to post on this forum. Why spend it on someone who doesn't even respects them and is constantly mocking their beliefs?
DPMartin - Look another so called atheist that"s going to show use how stupid we are and how smart it is, by being in the religion section for most of 9,253 postings and hasn"t learned that the muslim god and the Christian God are not the same god.

Look Gentle Readers, two posters find our Trolls without any help from anyone else on the Board.

Guys, as you are now finding out, bulproof (bully) and composer are trolls. You won't get logic, respect, or class from them. Respond to them with this knowledge in mind.

Your point is well taken, but it seems that "trolls" as many like to call them is something they want to be, or they would change there attitude, and behavior.

So it has to be some sort of deranged mental thing that sites like this allows them to act out. Also, have you noticed that none of them (that I know of) are true believers in any religion, so this might be rooted in the atheism mind set, just sayin.
bornofgod
Posts: 11,322
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10/7/2014 10:35:59 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/4/2014 10:46:56 AM, ChrisL wrote:
At 10/4/2014 2:29:42 AM, Composer wrote:
At 10/2/2014 11:28:22 PM, ChrisL wrote:
I just began a new debate with Kasmic on the trinity. People in the past have grumbled about the length of my debates so I though I'd let all who are interested know up front so you can follow it post by post. Rather than reading them all at one time.
In reality, the entire trinitarian ideology can unequivocally be decimated in about 2 Posts as I shows already No. 1.

This is Post Number 2.

IF 100% Natural Orange Juice is tampered with or manipulated or chemicals added, then it isn't the Original, but a corrupted form!

Same goes for the Non-Original trinitarian Story book jebus!

Factual statement 1.

IF jebus were a 100% Fully man, then there is NO room for anything else e.g. a god!

&

Factual statement 2.

The former Bishop of Woolwich, Dr. Robinson, in his book, "Honest to God," in a passage where he was explaining how most claiming to be xtians view jebus:

"Jesus was not a man born and bred, he was God for a limited period taking part in a charade. He looked like a man, but underneath he was God dressed up - like Father Christmas."

Many church people find the bishop's reference to Father Christmas offensive. Yet apart from that, they agree that this is a fair statement of church teaching. If jebus was really a god, or even a mighty angel who once lived in heaven, then it was never a real man, but a Divine Person dressed up in human flesh.

NB: If jebus was really a god, or even a mighty angel who once lived in heaven, then it was never a real man, but a Divine Person dressed up in human flesh.

Hence Johnny Come Lately trinitarians swallow corrupted Orange Juice and believe in Father Xmas as demonstrated!

QED

Composer. If you can't even have enough respect for believers to properly spell their Lord's name and not call Him story book Jesus, why should we( & I) take heed to anything you type? It's kinda hard to take a guy like you seriously? Everyone has to take time out of their lives to post on this forum. Why spend it on someone who doesn't even respects them and is constantly mocking their beliefs?

Our invisible Lord's name is NOT JESUS you idiot. That's why Composer calls your deity "Storybook Jesus", because that's what he is to him and all the other people on this planet who knows that Christianity is a false religion filled with hypocrites.