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Godsands helped me understand....

Freeman
Posts: 1,239
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4/7/2010 2:52:32 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Godsands helped me understand the mind of an evangelical.

He tried to teach me about the gospel, and the conversation that follows below is a dialogue that he and I had on religion.

The dialogue makes me look somewhat boorish and flippant, but Godsands can be quite nagging at times. Anyway, it's mildly amusing, so I thought I would share it.

Mr Anderson!

» Between GodSands and You
Friday, February 19, 2010 @ 5:44:37 PM
Posted by:
GodSands

Only joking about the subject title. :) I made the joke from your profile picture.

I watched the video oh my forum where Sam Harris is speaking on God and the Bible. So since you posted the video I presume you agree with it? I want to ask, are you an atheist and if so, why so?
Friday, February 19, 2010 @ 6:03:04 PM

Posted by:
Freeman

Sir, I'm afraid you have the wrong person in mind. I am no sort of atheist or unbeliever. I believe that Jesus is the divine Son of God. Furthermore, I believe that he was bodily resurrected on the third day after he was crucified. At this moment, he is currently sitting at the right hand of the father in anticipation of the day he will come back to judge humanity for its sexual sins and skeptical doubts. Amen
Friday, February 19, 2010 @ 6:08:38 PM

Posted by:
GodSands

I am getting a different understanding, sorry, but you say you are a sec[u]lar humanist. Which specifically reject the existence of the supernatural, but accepts ethics, reason and justice and being humans most needed source for a controlled, respected lived out life.
Friday, February 19, 2010 @ 6:21:44 PM

Posted by:
Freeman

Hmm... I see you are very perceptive. Yeah, I'm a humanist. If you want to know why I don't believe in God, then you can read this debate. http://www.debate.org...... If you want to know why I'm opposed to Christianity, then you can read this debate. http://www.debate.org......
Friday, February 19, 2010 @ 6:26:00 PM

Posted by:
GodSands

Why did you say you believed that Jesus died and rose again to take away the sin of man? And you debates are all very long, however I will read both of them tomorrow.

And do you understand the Gospel? This being my most important question.
Friday, February 19, 2010 @ 8:17:02 PM

Posted by:
Freeman

GodSands, I'm well aware of the precepts of your cult. Moreover, I'm not interested in your religious banter. :)
Saturday, February 20, 2010 @ 6:31:01 AM

Posted by:
GodSands

By my means, by what I know is good to my own conscious I am trying to help you. You step aside quicky, before the cliff comes tumberly down on you. I responded to your forum post on atheism, I believe I made a good point, are you angry or just bitter in some way because of that?
Saturday, February 20, 2010 @ 9:04:24 AM

Posted by:
Freeman

Godsands, I don't need your help and I don't want your help.
Saturday, February 20, 2010 @ 3:15:43 PM

Posted by:
GodSands

Why are you bitter towards me?
Saturday, February 20, 2010 @ 5:06:02 PM

Posted by:
Freeman

I am not bitter towards you. You just disappoint me on a number of different levels. For instance: 1. You have made yourself impossible to talk to. 2. You have continually demonstrated an inability to grasp simple points of logic. 3. When you are confronted with facts about science, you stick you[r] fingers in your ears. This is why I'm indifferent about what you have to say.
Sunday, February 21, 2010 @ 6:00:53 AM

Posted by:
GodSands

Ok fine. God bless you.

Has anyone had a similar experience with him?
Chancellor of Propaganda and Foreign Relations in the Franklin administration.

"I intend to live forever. So far, so good." -- Steven Wright
Volkov
Posts: 9,765
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4/7/2010 3:16:11 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
I think most of us had this this experience. Luckily I don't delete my messages so here's one from awhile ago:

Posted by:
GodSands

You need to trust and believe there is a God to say that there is love, real friends and real reality. I admit even Christians who believe in evolution are in the same problem as you are. Because they evolved. And God could then be a delsuion. But if God created humans as humans, in that is what I believe, I don't and neither will you have that problem, if you start comming to your senses and believing in the one and only might God

Saturday, July 25, 2009 @ 4:53:24 AM
Posted by:
Volkov

GodSands, understand this - if everything I perceive is a delusion, then it is a delusion to you - not a delusion to me, because it is my reality. The only way I know whether or not my reality is really a delusion, is if you or a third party shows me that it is. Humans verify their reality through third parties - ie., either the tree I don't believe exists falls on top of me, or someone shouts at me that it does. There is no way to escape the fact that what a third-party says and proves is most likely the reality as compared to your delusion. What of this do you not get?

Saturday, July 25, 2009 @ 4:58:38 AM
Posted by:
GodSands

Your speaking as if the third party exists. Does God exists or not? Since I believe and know God, I say that saying there is a God is a very good reason to know that you are not delsional.

So because you keep on about the third party (God) they must exist do not tell you are delsuional, because you could be having a delsuion of the third party but to tell you that this is reality. The Bible, and the belief one has in God and His son Jesus gives one hope to say, I am who I am. For real.

Saturday, July 25, 2009 @ 5:03:57 AM
Posted by:
Volkov

Oh my God, you're so right GodSands. - See? That would be a delusional statement. The third party exists because it exists outside of any delusions I have. It exists outside of my mind because it can affect me in ways that my mind wouldn't want it to. It isn't "God" to me, but if it is to you, then fine. "God" is your third party that exists outside of your individual reality and can affect you in ways you don't expect or want it to. If "God" didn't exist for you, then you would be as delusional as you're claiming me to be.

Saturday, July 25, 2009 @ 5:05:37 AM
Posted by:
GodSands

Who says the...just call it God, exists out side your mind? You? I do not believe in evolution but creation remember.

Saturday, July 25, 2009 @ 5:06:00 AM
Posted by:
GodSands

Again do you see the problem?

Saturday, July 25, 2009 @ 5:07:32 AM
Posted by:
Volkov

What part of "it can affect me in ways my mind doesn't want nor expect" do you not understand? If I don't believe in a car, but that car hits me, then clearly there is something there that I am not seeing. Therefore, I'm having a delusion.

Saturday, July 25, 2009 @ 5:07:49 AM
Posted by:
Volkov

Or, my senses are failing, at least in the case of a blind and deaf person.

Saturday, July 25, 2009 @ 6:48:10 AM
Posted by:
GodSands

Its nothing to do with blindness or deafness but about you be delsional because you cannot trust you five senses. I can truely know if someone is blind, where as you do not because you do not believe in God. And God is our foundation to everything.

"it can affect me in ways my mind doesn't want nor expect" -- So could you be delusional, your entire existence could be a delusion from what you know of it, right?

Saturday, July 25, 2009 @ 5:55:25 PM
Posted by:
GodSands

So why are you still an atheist? Stop being in denial.

Saturday, July 25, 2009 @ 6:48:03 PM
Posted by:
Volkov

I'm not in denial. You may be, I don't know.

Saturday, July 25, 2009 @ 6:52:23 PM
Posted by:
GodSands

S, which do you choose to accept, evolution be true and everthing you see is a delsuion or you cannot 100% know anything. Or there is a God and He created the universe in six days, you know things for sure and you know for fact, 100% this is a real, legit reality. Which?

Saturday, July 25, 2009 @ 6:59:16 PM
Posted by:
Volkov

The former, because it explains everything about our biology without some bloke telling us that we are all born with sin because some ancestor did something stupid.

Saturday, July 25, 2009 @ 7:05:49 PM
Posted by:
GodSands

So everthing you see and know is a deulsion ok, and that you don't know anything 100%. Ok then just comfirm that to me. That I'll be on my way.
philosphical
Posts: 1,643
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4/7/2010 4:05:14 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Godsands wrote:
I admit even Christians who believe in evolution are in the same problem as you are.

This makes no sense. You can't be a christian and believe in evolution!!
Your mouths writing checks that your @ss can't cash!
BellumQuodPacis
Posts: 1,646
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4/7/2010 4:11:16 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/7/2010 4:10:05 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
I'm surprised I never recieved any such messages from him.

Ive gotten one or two from banker but they've been deleted. Asking me to help him "expose" the muslims.....what an a$$.
Freeman
Posts: 1,239
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4/7/2010 4:30:31 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/7/2010 4:05:14 PM, philosphical wrote:
Godsands wrote:
I admit even Christians who believe in evolution are in the same problem as you are.

This makes no sense. You can't be a christian and believe in evolution!!

That's not true.

http://en.wikipedia.org...(geneticist) Francis_Collins

http://en.wikipedia.org... Kenneth_R._Miller

http://en.wikipedia.org... Alister_McGrath

http://en.wikipedia.org... Rowan_Williams

http://en.wikipedia.org... Richard_Swinburne
Chancellor of Propaganda and Foreign Relations in the Franklin administration.

"I intend to live forever. So far, so good." -- Steven Wright
Korashk
Posts: 4,597
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4/7/2010 4:43:14 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Godsands really did have an extremely subjective and usually incorrect understanding of other people's words.
When large numbers of otherwise-law abiding people break specific laws en masse, it's usually a fault that lies with the law. - Unknown
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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4/7/2010 6:38:35 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/7/2010 4:30:31 PM, Freeman wrote:
At 4/7/2010 4:05:14 PM, philosphical wrote:
Godsands wrote:
I admit even Christians who believe in evolution are in the same problem as you are.

This makes no sense. You can't be a christian and believe in evolution!!

That's not true.

http://en.wikipedia.org...(geneticist) Francis_Collins

http://en.wikipedia.org... Kenneth_R._Miller

http://en.wikipedia.org... Alister_McGrath

http://en.wikipedia.org... Rowan_Williams

http://en.wikipedia.org... Richard_Swinburne

You would have to reject some parts of Christian doctrine to believe in evolution. Though, while I used to be entirely against the notion of Christians reforming they're views, I have to accept that Christians should and can develop their understanding and should reform scripture.

However, I doubt that day will ever come because if you mention altering "God's word" then they'll think it's blasphemy.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
InsertNameHere
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4/7/2010 6:47:02 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/7/2010 4:11:16 PM, BellumQuodPacis wrote:
At 4/7/2010 4:10:05 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
I'm surprised I never recieved any such messages from him.

Ive gotten one or two from banker but they've been deleted. Asking me to help him "expose" the muslims.....what an a$$.

Hahahaha! Banker would totally do that too. xD
Nik
Posts: 552
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4/7/2010 7:11:59 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
you know, people in mental institutes are allowed to access the internet.......
"If you could tell the world but one truth, I could convince it of a thousand lies"
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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4/7/2010 9:39:35 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/7/2010 6:56:41 PM, MTGandP wrote:
Why are we now posting private messages?

I agree that it's a violation of privacy, however, GodSands was very open about himself in the forums, as much as he is in the private messages.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
Volkov
Posts: 9,765
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4/7/2010 9:41:38 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/7/2010 9:39:35 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
I agree that it's a violation of privacy, however, GodSands was very open about himself in the forums, as much as he is in the private messages.

Violation of privacy? Methinks not. My privacy hasn't been violated. And GodSands is no longer a member of this website. It's like he's dead, and the dead can't complain, can they. xD
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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4/7/2010 9:51:46 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/7/2010 9:39:35 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 4/7/2010 6:56:41 PM, MTGandP wrote:
Why are we now posting private messages?

I agree that it's a violation of privacy, however, GodSands was very open about himself in the forums, as much as he is in the private messages.

yeah, I don't think it's a violation as he says all of that stuff in the forums anyhow.

I'm sure he wouldn't care, and if he did it would be for no good reason (from what I can tell)
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
omelet
Posts: 416
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4/7/2010 10:58:34 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
I talk with him fairly often on Facebook chat (he always starts the conversations).

Here's a transcript from a discussion we had earlier today:

[He asks me if I would want people to believe in me if I was God, and I explain that I'd give people sufficient evidence rather than expecting people to believe based on faith, and that my judgement of people would be of their actions, not how little evidence they need to believe things]

========
Him:
I don't have blind faith.

Me:
I already know you think that.
You think there is evidence for God, etc. You think you have personal experiences that are sufficient evidence for your belief.
And maybe you do, but I don't have sufficient evidence to believe those same things.

Him:
There is absolutle no evidence for God.

Me:
Then there is absolutely no reason for me to believe in God.

Him:
What stand point am I saying that from?

Me:
What do you mean "what standpoint?"

Him:
Can I know the universe from another view point but a humans or more accurately my own view?

Me:
No, you can't.
Everything you know is from your own point of view.
This is why, if you DID have a personal religious experience that was sufficient evidence for God, that would NOT be sufficient evidence for me, since I don't have access to that evidence.

Him:
Umm, what I was saying is the evidence for something that is unnormal or supernatural is personal, thats why I said there is no evidence for God at all, but there is evidence of God if you are [GodSands' real name]. If I could not think, or reason, there would be none, and thus no evidence against God.
========

It's nice that he doesn't usually bother arguing that there's actual scientifically verifiable evidence for Christianity anymore.
omelet
Posts: 416
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4/7/2010 10:59:26 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
I don't think it's a violation of privacy. If he doesn't want you talking about a conversation, he shouldn't converse with you.
Zetsubou
Posts: 4,933
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4/8/2010 4:05:57 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/7/2010 10:58:34 PM, omelet wrote:

Him:
There is absolutle no evidence for God.

Me:
Then there is absolutely no reason for me to believe in God.

No, bad reasoning.
'sup DDO -- july 2013
omelet
Posts: 416
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4/8/2010 1:27:21 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/8/2010 4:05:57 AM, Zetsubou wrote:
At 4/7/2010 10:58:34 PM, omelet wrote:

Him:
There is absolutle no evidence for God.

Me:
Then there is absolutely no reason for me to believe in God.

No, bad reasoning.
Evidence is the only good reason to believe something.
Koopin
Posts: 12,090
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4/8/2010 1:39:15 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/8/2010 1:27:21 PM, omelet wrote:
At 4/8/2010 4:05:57 AM, Zetsubou wrote:
At 4/7/2010 10:58:34 PM, omelet wrote:

Him:
There is absolutle no evidence for God.

Me:
Then there is absolutely no reason for me to believe in God.

No, bad reasoning.
Evidence is the only good reason to believe something.

So their is no good reason to believe in anything...
kfc
omelet
Posts: 416
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4/8/2010 1:40:55 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/8/2010 4:05:57 AM, Zetsubou wrote:
At 4/7/2010 10:58:34 PM, omelet wrote:

Him:
There is absolutle no evidence for God.

Me:
Then there is absolutely no reason for me to believe in God.

No, bad reasoning.
Evidence is the only good reason to believe something.

EDIT:
Zetsu, mind giving me an example of something for which a lack of evidence can be sufficient for belief?
omelet
Posts: 416
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4/8/2010 1:47:34 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/8/2010 1:39:15 PM, Koopin wrote:
At 4/8/2010 1:27:21 PM, omelet wrote:
At 4/8/2010 4:05:57 AM, Zetsubou wrote:
At 4/7/2010 10:58:34 PM, omelet wrote:

Him:
There is absolutle no evidence for God.

Me:
Then there is absolutely no reason for me to believe in God.

No, bad reasoning.
Evidence is the only good reason to believe something.

So their is no good reason to believe in anything...
We have plenty of evidence for a wealth of things. We don't have 100% PROOF, but we have supporting EVIDENCE for pretty much every belief we have. Every rational belief, at least.

It's true that we have to assign low a priori probabilities to things like our senses showing us delusions, at least if we want to be able to say things in a general sense. But even without doing something like that, I can make the statement "Assuming my senses are not lying to me, it seems likely that Koopin posted that comment." Which really is all that matters, since we all must live our lives as if our senses aren't lying to us.
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,924
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4/8/2010 2:00:46 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/8/2010 1:47:34 PM, omelet wrote:
We have plenty of evidence for a wealth of things. We don't have 100% PROOF, but we have supporting EVIDENCE for pretty much every belief we have. Every rational belief, at least.

What's your definition of evidence?
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mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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4/8/2010 2:07:35 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/8/2010 2:00:46 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 4/8/2010 1:47:34 PM, omelet wrote:
We have plenty of evidence for a wealth of things. We don't have 100% PROOF, but we have supporting EVIDENCE for pretty much every belief we have. Every rational belief, at least.

What's your definition of evidence?

Tertullian's is if God said so... And don't ask for evidence of scripture being the word of God! that's obvious!
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
omelet
Posts: 416
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4/8/2010 2:35:08 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/8/2010 2:00:46 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 4/8/2010 1:47:34 PM, omelet wrote:
We have plenty of evidence for a wealth of things. We don't have 100% PROOF, but we have supporting EVIDENCE for pretty much every belief we have. Every rational belief, at least.

What's your definition of evidence?
"information or signs indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid."
That's the first Oxford definition, and it seems fine.

The first Webster definition is also fine: "an outward sign : indication"

For instance, given the fact that I've seen your posts and given all the other observations I've made about this site and the internet in general, I could come to the conclusion that (assuming my senses are reliable) there is a distinct person who has written all of your posts. Given the observations I've made about the sun and about the earth, I could be fairly confident that I could see the sun come up tomorrow if I look out my window at the right time.