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Pedophilia just a mental disorder?

neutral
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10/6/2014 3:49:18 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
http://www.nytimes.com...

Well, there it is - the excuses about human sexuality continue to grow. Now, pedophilia is not a crime ... its just a mental health disorder. Certainly, if someone is struggling with feeling that they are just 'born with' regarding children and sexual attraction - THEY NEED HELP.

However, we need to be in control of our sexuality. We are not enslaved by it, and we need to recognize that sexual impulses raging out of control is not a good thing. If someone acts on these impulses, punishment is required. Its not a failing, its an acknowlegdement that these sexual impulses are ... criminal.

The danger here of accepting that this is natural or that it 'just happens' is wrong. Man can control his sexual desire, and in some cases - that control is not optional. If we find that we cannot? Then we must do something BEFORE it results in criminal behavior.

We CAN control our sexual desire.
neutral
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10/6/2014 4:03:14 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/6/2014 3:53:42 AM, XLAV wrote:
This reminds me of when being homosexual was a mental disorder.

Yep ... now we have pedophilia - child molestation being normalized. Is that 'good'?
bulproof
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10/6/2014 4:29:28 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
Well that settles it, one academic makes such a claim and the sky is falling.
Beware of Foxy Loxy, won't you?
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
neutral
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10/6/2014 4:43:59 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/6/2014 4:29:28 AM, bulproof wrote:
Well that settles it, one academic makes such a claim and the sky is falling.
Beware of Foxy Loxy, won't you?

Helpful ... Thanks for not takling any stance whatsoever on the issue and completely missing the point that its based in the same language that was used to ... normalize homosexuality.

As I have long stated, my disagreement with homosexuality hinged on the legal language - ummutability verses protected choice.

Unfortunately, several legal briefs have come out that treat homosexuality as 'immutable' and is sexuality is immutable.

But the 'intelligent' troll doesn't get and just wants to leave anotyher troll turd. YEAH ATHEISM!
bulproof
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10/6/2014 5:00:28 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/6/2014 4:43:59 AM, neutral wrote:
At 10/6/2014 4:29:28 AM, bulproof wrote:
Well that settles it, one academic makes such a claim and the sky is falling.
Beware of Foxy Loxy, won't you?

Helpful ... Thanks for not takling any stance whatsoever on the issue and completely missing the point that its based in the same language that was used to ... normalize homosexuality.

As I have long stated, my disagreement with homosexuality hinged on the legal language - ummutability verses protected choice.

Unfortunately, several legal briefs have come out that treat homosexuality as 'immutable' and is sexuality is immutable.

But the 'intelligent' troll doesn't get and just wants to leave anotyher troll turd. YEAH ATHEISM!

I responded with intellect and reason in opposition to your emotional unreasoning rant.

Once again your incapacity to understand the written word is as obvious as Corcovado Mountain in Rio De Janero.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
neutral
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10/6/2014 5:02:45 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/6/2014 5:00:28 AM, bulproof wrote:

I responded with intellect and reason in opposition to your emotional unreasoning rant.

Once again your incapacity to understand the written word is as obvious as Corcovado Mountain in Rio De Janero.

No, you didn't.

Once again, you stupidity and arrogance are a bad combination. Please allow actual adults to talk.
bulproof
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10/6/2014 5:33:41 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/6/2014 5:02:45 AM, neutral wrote:
At 10/6/2014 5:00:28 AM, bulproof wrote:

I responded with intellect and reason in opposition to your emotional unreasoning rant.

Once again your incapacity to understand the written word is as obvious as Corcovado Mountain in Rio De Janero.

No, you didn't.

Once again, you stupidity and arrogance are a bad combination. Please allow actual adults to talk.

I was responding to your post, no adults involved until I entered.
If I didn't why was your response reduced to your usual insulting abuse?
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
neutral
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10/6/2014 7:53:26 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/6/2014 5:33:41 AM, bulproof wrote:

I was responding to your post, no adults involved until I entered. [translation, I am complete douche] Really, I am a victim of the consequence though ...

You are f*cking douche.

Thanks for more toxicity you pile of crap.
bulproof
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10/6/2014 8:03:56 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/6/2014 7:53:26 AM, neutral wrote:
At 10/6/2014 5:33:41 AM, bulproof wrote:

I was responding to your post, no adults involved until I entered. [translation, I am complete douche] Really, I am a victim of the consequence though ...

You are f*cking douche.

Thanks for more toxicity you pile of crap.

Listen little fella, I made it clear that anyone who made the irrational claims about paedophilia based on the statement by ONE academic that you have, needs to look out for Foxy Loxy. Who is another character from a fairy tale.

One blow job does not a Swallow make.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
Envisage
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10/6/2014 8:04:17 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/6/2014 3:49:18 AM, neutral wrote:
http://www.nytimes.com...

Well, there it is - the excuses about human sexuality continue to grow. Now, pedophilia is not a crime ... its just a mental health disorder. Certainly, if someone is struggling with feeling that they are just 'born with' regarding children and sexual attraction - THEY NEED HELP.

However, we need to be in control of our sexuality. We are not enslaved by it, and we need to recognize that sexual impulses raging out of control is not a good thing. If someone acts on these impulses, punishment is required. Its not a failing, its an acknowlegdement that these sexual impulses are ... criminal.

The danger here of accepting that this is natural or that it 'just happens' is wrong. Man can control his sexual desire, and in some cases - that control is not optional. If we find that we cannot? Then we must do something BEFORE it results in criminal behavior.

We CAN control our sexual desire.

Why is this in the religion forum? And I fail to see your objection here apart from you expressing your dislike for it.

If pedophilia is an attraction akin to hetero and homo sexuality, then it would be hard-pressed to find something intrinsically wrong with having paedophilic attractions.

Of course we generally don't want a society when people act on paedophilic urges even if they have them, and having provisions for people who wish to remain in control.

I actually think classifying it as a 'mental health disorder' is a misnomer, as it's not clear how it's pathogenic outside of being outside of social norms.
bornofgod
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10/6/2014 8:06:25 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/6/2014 3:49:18 AM, neutral wrote:
http://www.nytimes.com...

Well, there it is - the excuses about human sexuality continue to grow. Now, pedophilia is not a crime ... its just a mental health disorder. Certainly, if someone is struggling with feeling that they are just 'born with' regarding children and sexual attraction - THEY NEED HELP.

However, we need to be in control of our sexuality. We are not enslaved by it, and we need to recognize that sexual impulses raging out of control is not a good thing. If someone acts on these impulses, punishment is required. Its not a failing, its an acknowlegdement that these sexual impulses are ... criminal.

The danger here of accepting that this is natural or that it 'just happens' is wrong. Man can control his sexual desire, and in some cases - that control is not optional. If we find that we cannot? Then we must do something BEFORE it results in criminal behavior.

We CAN control our sexual desire.

That's what Catholic priests thought, too.
neutral
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10/6/2014 8:22:53 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/6/2014 8:04:17 AM, Envisage wrote:
At 10/6/2014 3:49:18 AM, neutral wrote:
http://www.nytimes.com...

Well, there it is - the excuses about human sexuality continue to grow. Now, pedophilia is not a crime ... its just a mental health disorder. Certainly, if someone is struggling with feeling that they are just 'born with' regarding children and sexual attraction - THEY NEED HELP.

However, we need to be in control of our sexuality. We are not enslaved by it, and we need to recognize that sexual impulses raging out of control is not a good thing. If someone acts on these impulses, punishment is required. Its not a failing, its an acknowlegdement that these sexual impulses are ... criminal.

The danger here of accepting that this is natural or that it 'just happens' is wrong. Man can control his sexual desire, and in some cases - that control is not optional. If we find that we cannot? Then we must do something BEFORE it results in criminal behavior.

We CAN control our sexual desire.

Why is this in the religion forum? And I fail to see your objection here apart from you expressing your dislike for it.

If pedophilia is an attraction akin to hetero and homo sexuality, then it would be hard-pressed to find something intrinsically wrong with having paedophilic attractions.

Because sex with children is one of those things that is INTRISICALLY wrong. There are issues of maturity, bith physically and emotionally, etc.

The RELIGIOUS view on this is that we CAN, and indeed SHOULD, control our sexual desire. The atheist view?


Of course we generally don't want a society when people act on paedophilic urges even if they have them, and having provisions for people who wish to remain in control.

I actually think classifying it as a 'mental health disorder' is a misnomer, as it's not clear how it's pathogenic outside of being outside of social norms.

Its morally unacceptable and a crime - and for very good reason.

And the crux of the issue is raised in the homosexualiy debate: is sexuality immutable? Or is it controllable - subject to choice? Is sexualoity immutable or not?

Regardless of the 'urges' it behooves us, and indeed is crimalized, when we fail. One of the cornerstones of US jurisprudence is under assault here, that is that we are NOT responsible for actions.

Pedophilia is perfect demonstration of this issue. Its one thing with consensual adults, quite another when we start involving children. THAT is the issue.
neutral
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10/6/2014 8:26:28 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/6/2014 8:03:56 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 10/6/2014 7:53:26 AM, neutral wrote:
At 10/6/2014 5:33:41 AM, bulproof wrote:

I was responding to your post, no adults involved until I entered. [translation, I am complete douche] Really, I am a victim of the consequence though ...

You are f*cking douche.

Thanks for more toxicity you pile of crap.

Listen little fella, I made it clear that anyone who made the irrational claims about paedophilia based on the statement by ONE academic that you have, needs to look out for Foxy Loxy. Who is another character from a fairy tale.

One blow job does not a Swallow make.

Its not relevant at all little girl.

The subject is whether or not its a mental health issue, immutable, or whether its a crime. That one person or a thousand says one way or the other is not rlevent you troll.
bulproof
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10/6/2014 8:30:23 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/6/2014 8:26:28 AM, neutral wrote:
At 10/6/2014 8:03:56 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 10/6/2014 7:53:26 AM, neutral wrote:
At 10/6/2014 5:33:41 AM, bulproof wrote:

I was responding to your post, no adults involved until I entered. [translation, I am complete douche] Really, I am a victim of the consequence though ...

You are f*cking douche.

Thanks for more toxicity you pile of crap.

Listen little fella, I made it clear that anyone who made the irrational claims about paedophilia based on the statement by ONE academic that you have, needs to look out for Foxy Loxy. Who is another character from a fairy tale.

One blow job does not a Swallow make.

Its not relevant at all little girl.

The subject is whether or not its a mental health issue, immutable, or whether its a crime. That one person or a thousand says one way or the other is not rlevent you troll.

Ah yes little fella and your claim is that it is "immutably a crime". Do you mean a violation of your god's rules or a violation of your country/states rules?
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
neutral
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10/6/2014 9:34:29 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/6/2014 8:30:23 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 10/6/2014 8:26:28 AM, neutral wrote:
At 10/6/2014 8:03:56 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 10/6/2014 7:53:26 AM, neutral wrote:
At 10/6/2014 5:33:41 AM, bulproof wrote:

I was responding to your post, no adults involved until I entered. [translation, I am complete douche] Really, I am a victim of the consequence though ...

You are f*cking douche.

Thanks for more toxicity you pile of crap.

Listen little fella, I made it clear that anyone who made the irrational claims about paedophilia based on the statement by ONE academic that you have, needs to look out for Foxy Loxy. Who is another character from a fairy tale.

One blow job does not a Swallow make.

Its not relevant at all little girl.

The subject is whether or not its a mental health issue, immutable, or whether its a crime. That one person or a thousand says one way or the other is not rlevent you troll.

Ah yes little fella and your claim is that it is "immutably a crime". Do you mean a violation of your god's rules or a violation of your country/states rules?

Sex with a child is the crime retard. Maybe you should work on that comprehension issue of yours.

And yes, sex with children violates God's Rules.

So, you remain a complete idiot and a troll too boot.
bulproof
Posts: 25,203
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10/6/2014 10:10:41 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/6/2014 9:34:29 AM, neutral wrote:
At 10/6/2014 8:30:23 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 10/6/2014 8:26:28 AM, neutral wrote:
At 10/6/2014 8:03:56 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 10/6/2014 7:53:26 AM, neutral wrote:
At 10/6/2014 5:33:41 AM, bulproof wrote:

I was responding to your post, no adults involved until I entered. [translation, I am complete douche] Really, I am a victim of the consequence though ...

You are f*cking douche.

Thanks for more toxicity you pile of crap.

Listen little fella, I made it clear that anyone who made the irrational claims about paedophilia based on the statement by ONE academic that you have, needs to look out for Foxy Loxy. Who is another character from a fairy tale.

One blow job does not a Swallow make.

Its not relevant at all little girl.

The subject is whether or not its a mental health issue, immutable, or whether its a crime. That one person or a thousand says one way or the other is not rlevent you troll.

Ah yes little fella and your claim is that it is "immutably a crime". Do you mean a violation of your god's rules or a violation of your country/states rules?

Sex with a child is the crime retard. Maybe you should work on that comprehension issue of yours.

And yes, sex with children violates God's Rules.

So, you remain a complete idiot and a troll too boot.

That is most certainly not the story provided by your god in the book you claim is his word.
Child sex and indeed rape was what he ordered his "followers" to participate in.
And no I will not provide the passages, because you will just hand wave away that evidence as you always do.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
neutral
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10/6/2014 10:18:24 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/6/2014 10:10:41 AM, bulproof wrote:

That is most certainly not the story provided by your god in the book you claim is his word.
Child sex and indeed rape was what he ordered his "followers" to participate in.
And no I will not provide the passages, because you will just hand wave away that evidence as you always do.

Agh, the flame baiting monster rears his head.

I am glad an intense douchebag wants to lecture me about what my religion is rather than engage on the topic again.

WTF is your problem craptastric troll?

Do you see the subject? Is it time to get the moderetaors involved yet again? Or can you participate in discussion without flamebait troll boy?
bulproof
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10/6/2014 10:20:47 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/6/2014 10:18:24 AM, neutral wrote:
At 10/6/2014 10:10:41 AM, bulproof wrote:

That is most certainly not the story provided by your god in the book you claim is his word.
Child sex and indeed rape was what he ordered his "followers" to participate in.
And no I will not provide the passages, because you will just hand wave away that evidence as you always do.

Agh, the flame baiting monster rears his head.

I am glad an intense douchebag wants to lecture me about what my religion is rather than engage on the topic again.

WTF is your problem craptastric troll?

Do you see the subject? Is it time to get the moderetaors involved yet again? Or can you participate in discussion without flamebait troll boy?

Pathetic little man.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
debateuser
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10/6/2014 10:21:13 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/6/2014 3:49:18 AM, neutral wrote:
http://www.nytimes.com...

Well, there it is - the excuses about human sexuality continue to grow. Now, pedophilia is not a crime ... its just a mental health disorder. Certainly, if someone is struggling with feeling that they are just 'born with' regarding children and sexual attraction - THEY NEED HELP.

However, we need to be in control of our sexuality. We are not enslaved by it, and we need to recognize that sexual impulses raging out of control is not a good thing. If someone acts on these impulses, punishment is required. Its not a failing, its an acknowlegdement that these sexual impulses are ... criminal.

The danger here of accepting that this is natural or that it 'just happens' is wrong. Man can control his sexual desire, and in some cases - that control is not optional. If we find that we cannot? Then we must do something BEFORE it results in criminal behavior.

We CAN control our sexual desire.

Then It must be some coincidence that most paedophiles are priests according to you. Lol. And it also shows that religious education has no effect on reducing paedophillia.
And posting the opinion of just one person is not enough to decide. The medical community still recognizes paedophillia as a psychiatric disorder. Also paedophiles are more likely to have other psychiatric disorders too. If a person murders someone because he/she is suffering from stress, does that mean that person should be pardoned. No. Obviously if someone acts on such urges which damage others then they should be punished.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org...
Scientific Errors In Religion : Atheists are right that religion is a myth

Read this topic on below link:

http://www.debate.org...
neutral
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10/6/2014 10:22:25 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/6/2014 10:20:47 AM, bulproof wrote:

Pathetic little man.

Yeah more trolling! Atheist's this guy makes you look SOOO good.
neutral
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10/6/2014 10:23:22 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/6/2014 10:21:13 AM, debateuser wrote:


Then It must be some coincidence that most paedophiles are priests according to you. Lol.

Oh? I said that did I? Thanks troll.

In short, we cannot discuss things because atheists seem incapable of trolling.
bulproof
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10/6/2014 10:30:10 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/6/2014 10:23:22 AM, neutral wrote:
At 10/6/2014 10:21:13 AM, debateuser wrote:


Then It must be some coincidence that most paedophiles are priests according to you. Lol.

Oh? I said that did I? Thanks troll.

In short, we cannot discuss things because atheists seem incapable of trolling.
Christians, this is what your champion claims is your belief and when shown that it is just the opinion of one academic then the newt goes into orbit about hateful non-believers.
Amazing ain't it?
Are you christians happy to accept the newts definition of what you believe?
Oh never mind, you can't tell your most insane christian that his insanity is wrong because he is a christian and therefore what he says MUST be true.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
bornofgod
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10/6/2014 10:40:06 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/6/2014 10:18:24 AM, neutral wrote:
At 10/6/2014 10:10:41 AM, bulproof wrote:

That is most certainly not the story provided by your god in the book you claim is his word.
Child sex and indeed rape was what he ordered his "followers" to participate in.
And no I will not provide the passages, because you will just hand wave away that evidence as you always do.

Agh, the flame baiting monster rears his head.

I am glad an intense douchebag wants to lecture me about what my religion is rather than engage on the topic again.

WTF is your problem craptastric troll?

Do you see the subject? Is it time to get the moderetaors involved yet again? Or can you participate in discussion without flamebait troll boy?

Why do you get so angry at someone who is challenging your deity ( imaginary god called Jesus ) and the new testament that you Christians ( antichrists and false prophets ) produced to make you believe you have power over the rest of God's people who are all in God's dream together?
bsh1
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10/6/2014 10:54:50 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
Being a pedophile isn't a crime. Acting on pedophilic impulses is a crime. Pedophiles can't help that they have those attractions, and society should help give them tools to cope so that they don't wind up assaulting or exploiting children.
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Skikx
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10/6/2014 11:00:36 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/6/2014 3:49:18 AM, neutral wrote:
http://www.nytimes.com...

Well, there it is - the excuses about human sexuality continue to grow. Now, pedophilia is not a crime ... its just a mental health disorder. Certainly, if someone is struggling with feeling that they are just 'born with' regarding children and sexual attraction - THEY NEED HELP.

However, we need to be in control of our sexuality. We are not enslaved by it, and we need to recognize that sexual impulses raging out of control is not a good thing. If someone acts on these impulses, punishment is required. Its not a failing, its an acknowlegdement that these sexual impulses are ... criminal.

The danger here of accepting that this is natural or that it 'just happens' is wrong. Man can control his sexual desire, and in some cases - that control is not optional. If we find that we cannot? Then we must do something BEFORE it results in criminal behavior.

We CAN control our sexual desire.

You realize that recognizing pedophilia as a sexual disorder, accepting that the affected are just humans that have a problem and need help and ultimately offering that help, instead of demonizing them for having those urges is exactly what helps these people to control their urges, right?

If you demonize them, cast them out, not because they act upon their desires, but simply for having them, you leave them no choice but to keep it to themselves and try to deal with it alone, at which they usually fail.
If we accept it as a disorder, are more accepting of them, make it easier for them to talk about their problems and thus make it easier for them to seek help, among friends as well as professional help, without having to fear o lose their job, to be cast out of society and otherwise discriminated,it will become much easier for them to deal with their problem and to find alternative ways to satisfy their desire, that do not hurt anyone.
And thus they will be much less likely to actually attack a child.

If you mean you can control not only upon which desires you act, but which desires you even have, you're simply wrong.
Just take you're favorite food and try to not like it anymore. Take you're favorite comedy movie and try to not find it funny anymore.
Just try to be no longer attracted to the things you find attractive.
neutral
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10/6/2014 11:37:23 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/6/2014 11:00:36 AM, Skikx wrote:

If you demonize them, cast them out, not because they act upon their desires, but simply for having them, you leave them no choice but to keep it to themselves and try to deal with it alone, at which they usually fail.

We are talking about child molestation. The idea that a grown man deserves more compassion and understanding than child is ludicrious.

What we need to tell these guys is that if they have these urges, one, that THEY are responsible for controlling those sexual urges - and it is possible to do so. Two, if they are struggling with that control, then yes, they need to get help immediately precisely because it IS a mental defect.

We do not tell people that steal that its OK because they are kelptomaniacs. We STILL punish them for theft.

And here is the real problem - legally, if we tell them its immutable - then there is nothing they can do.

Sexuality in terms of urges may not be a choice, but the decision to act on them most certainly is. We can control our more carnal nature, and the failure to do so in this case is literally horrific.

Some things do not need understanding - they need accountability.

If we accept it as a disorder, are more accepting of them, make it easier for them to talk about their problems and thus make it easier for them to seek help, among friends as well as professional help, without having to fear o lose their job, to be cast out of society and otherwise discriminated,it will become much easier for them to deal with their problem and to find alternative ways to satisfy their desire, that do not hurt anyone.
And thus they will be much less likely to actually attack a child.

If they have sexual urges regarding children, then yes - they need to be away from children.

Children are innocent, and again, these urges CAN be changed. If not? Then there is no point taking the risk regarding children.

So yes, it should be stigmatized. There must be a very real understanding that giving into a temptation carries life alterting consequences including imprisonment. And it should.


If you mean you can control not only upon which desires you act, but which desires you even have, you're simply wrong.

You can indeed control those things that you have desires for. We are not slaves to our desires, and that is where we strongly disagree.

Billy Graham is a perfect example. Acknowledging human sexuality, he assured that he was never alone with any other woman save his wife. He CHOSE to create circumstances that prevented even the desire arising.

The question should be - WTF is wrong with me? And there needs to be understanding that some desires are not normal.

Just take you're favorite food and try to not like it anymore. Take you're favorite comedy movie and try to not find it funny anymore.

Its called fasting. I do it every year for six weeks. Lent. Try it.

What happens when you are deployed? Overseas?

Just try to be no longer attracted to the things you find attractive.

If you have desires that are neither healthy nor natural - its encumbant to acknowledge it - not rationalize it. Pedophilia is wrong - and treating it as immutable is even more wrong - we CAN control our desires.

I like women. I only have sex with wife. A choice. And if I see another attractive woman? I ignore those urges because of the commitment I made. That is how its SUPPOSED to work.

We CAN control our desires.
neutral
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10/6/2014 11:38:53 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/6/2014 10:40:06 AM, bornofgod wrote:
At 10/6/2014 10:18:24 AM, neutral wrote:
At 10/6/2014 10:10:41 AM, bulproof wrote:

That is most certainly not the story provided by your god in the book you claim is his word.
Child sex and indeed rape was what he ordered his "followers" to participate in.
And no I will not provide the passages, because you will just hand wave away that evidence as you always do.

Agh, the flame baiting monster rears his head.

I am glad an intense douchebag wants to lecture me about what my religion is rather than engage on the topic again.

WTF is your problem craptastric troll?

Do you see the subject? Is it time to get the moderetaors involved yet again? Or can you participate in discussion without flamebait troll boy?

Why do you get so angry at someone who is challenging your deity ( imaginary god called Jesus ) and the new testament that you Christians ( antichrists and false prophets ) produced to make you believe you have power over the rest of God's people who are all in God's dream together?

Please get help. You are not my God - Jesus is.
debateuser
Posts: 1,094
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10/6/2014 12:04:49 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/6/2014 10:23:22 AM, neutral wrote:
At 10/6/2014 10:21:13 AM, debateuser wrote:


Then It must be some coincidence that most paedophiles are priests according to you. Lol.

Oh? I said that did I? Thanks troll.

In short, we cannot discuss things because atheists seem incapable of trolling.

One thing you did not say is that if a paedophille priest ( which most of them are ) is known then that priest should be treated and obviously nobody should pay attention to what these paedophille priests teach because they are obviously not on the right path themselves.
Scientific Errors In Religion : Atheists are right that religion is a myth

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Skikx
Posts: 132
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10/6/2014 12:31:58 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/6/2014 11:37:23 AM, neutral wrote:
At 10/6/2014 11:00:36 AM, Skikx wrote:

If you demonize them, cast them out, not because they act upon their desires, but simply for having them, you leave them no choice but to keep it to themselves and try to deal with it alone, at which they usually fail.

We are talking about child molestation. The idea that a grown man deserves more compassion and understanding than child is ludicrious.

So is the idea that he needs less. We are all just humans after all.

What we need to tell these guys is that if they have these urges, one, that THEY are responsible for controlling those sexual urges - and it is possible to do so. Two, if they are struggling with that control, then yes, they need to get help immediately precisely because it IS a mental defect.

We do not tell people that steal that its OK because they are kelptomaniacs. We STILL punish them for theft.

I didn't say that child molestation is okay.

And here is the real problem - legally, if we tell them its immutable - then there is nothing they can do.

Of course there is. Crimes are punished to
a) discourage people from committing them in the first place
and b) in the case that a crime was committed, to keep the perpetrator from doing it again.

If this doesn't work on somebody, because they have a mental disease, in legal terms, that they are not guilty because of insanity. Then as a consequence, these people need to be locked in a mental institution, as they have proven that they are unfit to live freely in society.

Sexuality in terms of urges may not be a choice, but the decision to act on them most certainly is. We can control our more carnal nature, and the failure to do so in this case is literally horrific.

Some things do not need understanding - they need accountability.

But to solve a problem you need to understand the cause. You need to cure the disease, not just the symptoms. And for that you first need to understand the problem.

If we accept it as a disorder, are more accepting of them, make it easier for them to talk about their problems and thus make it easier for them to seek help, among friends as well as professional help, without having to fear o lose their job, to be cast out of society and otherwise discriminated,it will become much easier for them to deal with their problem and to find alternative ways to satisfy their desire, that do not hurt anyone.
And thus they will be much less likely to actually attack a child.

If they have sexual urges regarding children, then yes - they need to be away from children.

Children are innocent, and again, these urges CAN be changed. If not? Then there is no point taking the risk regarding children.

So yes, it should be stigmatized. There must be a very real understanding that giving into a temptation carries life alterting consequences including imprisonment. And it should.

But this is all only the case for actual child molesters, not for people who have pedophilic urges and do not act upon them. They have done nothing wrong and thus do not deserve to be punished. And to make sure it stays that way, we need to accept them as human beings that happen to have a mental disorder, which needs treatment.
If a psychologist then decides that a person is to dangerous to live freely in public or be around children without supervision, appropriate steps can be taken. But that needs to be decided on a case by case basis.


If you mean you can control not only upon which desires you act, but which desires you even have, you're simply wrong.

You can indeed control those things that you have desires for. We are not slaves to our desires, and that is where we strongly disagree.

Billy Graham is a perfect example. Acknowledging human sexuality, he assured that he was never alone with any other woman save his wife. He CHOSE to create circumstances that prevented even the desire arising.

Which shows, that one can not simply turn off a certain desire. If you desire something, you can not change that. All you can do is to distract yourself and avoid getting in situations in which you could act upon this desire.

The question should be - WTF is wrong with me? And there needs to be understanding that some desires are not normal.

Whether or not it is normal is irrelevant. What matters is only what consequences it has.
However, pretty much all pedophiles would actually agree with you. They do not think their desire is normal, they wonder what is wrong with them. And that is exactly why they need outside help. To learn how to live with their condition, without harming anyone.

Just take you're favorite food and try to not like it anymore. Take you're favorite comedy movie and try to not find it funny anymore.

Its called fasting. I do it every year for six weeks. Lent. Try it.

I didn't ask you to not eat it, I asked you to not like it. Maybe even to go so far as to find it disgusting, to be repulsed just by the thought of eating it.

What happens when you are deployed? Overseas?
You're sitting in the middle of the desert, talking with your comrades about how much you'd love to eat a nice steak or some chocolate pudding right now, how good it would feel to drink a cold beer? Maybe you talk about which celebrity is more attractive, or about the hottest girls you know back home.

Just try to be no longer attracted to the things you find attractive.

If you have desires that are neither healthy nor natural - its encumbant to acknowledge it - not rationalize it. Pedophilia is wrong - and treating it as immutable is even more wrong - we CAN control our desires.

You can control what you do, but you can not control what you desire. And that is exactly the reason pedophilia has to be acknowledge as a mental order. If you could control what you desire, it would not be a disorder, but simply a bad choice.

And to control yourself, you fight against such desires, you need proper treatment. Otherwise all those urges, combined with frustration and other feelings will just boil up beneath the surface, until one day, you can no longer control yourself. And then you will hurt somebody, even though you didn't actually want to.

I like women. I only have sex with wife. A choice. And if I see another attractive woman? I ignore those urges because of the commitment I made. That is how its SUPPOSED to work.

We CAN control our desires.

You choose to ignore these urges. Exactly my point. You can ignore them, for the moment, but they are there. You can not choose to be no longer attracted to anybody but your wife. Luckily for you, you can then later satisfy your desires with your wife. Pedophiles can not satisfy their desires in such a way, and their urges only grow stronger over time, until they overwhelm them.
That is what not only they, but also we as a society need to acknowledge, if we want to actually solve the problem.