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Envisage
Posts: 3,646
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10/7/2014 8:26:04 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
Does anybody want to debate me? Topic list is below, there are some topics that atheists might want to debate me on too.

Does God Exist? (Pro/Con)
Strong Atheism is a sound position (Pro)
Life is most likely intelligently designed (Con)
The Problem of Evil is Sound (Con)
Jesus was a historical figure (Pro/Con)
Assuming the NT Miracles are true, God is the best explanation (Con)
Theistic Moral Systems are destructive (Pro)

Leave a message if interested.
ChristianPunk
Posts: 1,710
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10/7/2014 8:40:22 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/7/2014 8:26:04 AM, Envisage wrote:
Does anybody want to debate me? Topic list is below, there are some topics that atheists might want to debate me on too.

Does God Exist? (Pro/Con)
Strong Atheism is a sound position (Pro)
Life is most likely intelligently designed (Con)
The Problem of Evil is Sound (Con)
Jesus was a historical figure (Pro/Con)
Assuming the NT Miracles are true, God is the best explanation (Con)
Theistic Moral Systems are destructive (Pro)

Leave a message if interested.

I'm thinking of debating you on the moral systems case. I'll be con.
Envisage
Posts: 3,646
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10/7/2014 12:46:44 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/7/2014 12:31:33 PM, Demetriuscapone wrote:
Which points are open for atheists to debate? I'll gladly have a friendly exchange of words.

All of them, the atheists might want to take the PoE, or strong atheism.
Demetriuscapone
Posts: 152
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10/7/2014 12:49:22 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/7/2014 12:46:44 PM, Envisage wrote:
At 10/7/2014 12:31:33 PM, Demetriuscapone wrote:
Which points are open for atheists to debate? I'll gladly have a friendly exchange of words.

All of them, the atheists might want to take the PoE, or strong atheism.

Okay, just to set thing straight, it says (con) next to 'the problem of evil is sound' does that mean I will have to assume the position that the problem of evil is not sound? Or does it mean you will?
Envisage
Posts: 3,646
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10/7/2014 3:50:59 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/7/2014 12:49:22 PM, Demetriuscapone wrote:
At 10/7/2014 12:46:44 PM, Envisage wrote:
At 10/7/2014 12:31:33 PM, Demetriuscapone wrote:
Which points are open for atheists to debate? I'll gladly have a friendly exchange of words.

All of them, the atheists might want to take the PoE, or strong atheism.

Okay, just to set thing straight, it says (con) next to 'the problem of evil is sound' does that mean I will have to assume the position that the problem of evil is not sound? Or does it mean you will?

My stances are in the parentheses.
SubterFugitive
Posts: 255
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10/7/2014 5:25:50 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/7/2014 8:26:04 AM, Envisage wrote:
Does anybody want to debate me? Topic list is below, there are some topics that atheists might want to debate me on too.

Does God Exist? (Pro/Con)
Strong Atheism is a sound position (Pro)
The Problem of Evil is Sound (Con)

^these are the three I would debate you in. I've already messaged you.
Envisage
Posts: 3,646
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10/7/2014 10:33:28 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/7/2014 5:25:50 PM, SubterFugitive wrote:
At 10/7/2014 8:26:04 AM, Envisage wrote:
Does anybody want to debate me? Topic list is below, there are some topics that atheists might want to debate me on too.

Does God Exist? (Pro/Con)
Strong Atheism is a sound position (Pro)
The Problem of Evil is Sound (Con)


^these are the three I would debate you in. I've already messaged you.

I will send you a debate then, note that I am con on the PoE.

Which debate did you want?
SubterFugitive
Posts: 255
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10/7/2014 10:43:47 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/7/2014 10:33:28 PM, Envisage wrote:
At 10/7/2014 5:25:50 PM, SubterFugitive wrote:
At 10/7/2014 8:26:04 AM, Envisage wrote:
Does anybody want to debate me? Topic list is below, there are some topics that atheists might want to debate me on too.

Does God Exist? (Pro/Con)
Strong Atheism is a sound position (Pro)
The Problem of Evil is Sound (Con)


^these are the three I would debate you in. I've already messaged you.

I will send you a debate then, note that I am con on the PoE.

Which debate did you want?

Oh, I'd want to be Con on that too ha, then I'd be happy to debate that "Strong Atheism is a sound position."

Please max out the time and characters? (Even if we don't use it, I like room :-)
Envisage
Posts: 3,646
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10/7/2014 10:56:43 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
I am hoping for the regular religion forum posters to bite. Namely...

POPO
Neutral
TN05
Popculturepoopa
Idealist
Annanicole
Benshapiro
Mykeil
Dragon fang
Ethang5

Etc etc. Sorry if I missed your name. Come, let's debate.
ethang5
Posts: 4,084
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10/9/2014 8:11:40 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/7/2014 10:56:43 PM, Envisage wrote:
I am hoping for the regular religion forum posters to bite. Namely...

POPO
Neutral
TN05
Popculturepoopa
Idealist
Annanicole
Benshapiro
Mykeil
Dragon fang
Ethang5

Etc etc. Sorry if I missed your name. Come, let's debate.

I can't debate because I can't verify my account with a phone number. I can't verify my account with a phone number apparently because the country in which I currently live is not in the list for country code numbers.

I have not been able to contact a mod to see if the problem can be solved.

But if you ever want a debate where whether you win or lose is decided on sheer logic and strength of argument, and not on pals voting for you, hit me up.
Envisage
Posts: 3,646
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11/10/2014 4:22:48 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/7/2014 8:26:04 AM, Envisage wrote:
Does anybody want to debate me? Topic list is below, there are some topics that atheists might want to debate me on too.

Does God Exist? (Pro/Con)
Strong Atheism is a sound position (Pro)
Life is most likely intelligently designed (Con)
The Problem of Evil is Sound (Con)
Jesus was a historical figure (Pro/Con)
Assuming the NT Miracles are true, God is the best explanation (Con)
Theistic Moral Systems are destructive (Pro)

Leave a message if interested.

Bump.
neutral
Posts: 4,478
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11/10/2014 4:29:52 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/7/2014 8:26:04 AM, Envisage wrote:
Does anybody want to debate me? Topic list is below, there are some topics that atheists might want to debate me on too.

Does God Exist? (Pro/Con)
Strong Atheism is a sound position (Pro)
Life is most likely intelligently designed (Con)
The Problem of Evil is Sound (Con)
Jesus was a historical figure (Pro/Con)
Assuming the NT Miracles are true, God is the best explanation (Con)
Theistic Moral Systems are destructive (Pro)

Leave a message if interested.

Why the flip on POE? You were once a strong supporter of the position? Or are you simply looking to exercise 'debate skills'?
Envisage
Posts: 3,646
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11/10/2014 4:43:14 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/10/2014 4:29:52 PM, neutral wrote:
At 10/7/2014 8:26:04 AM, Envisage wrote:
Does anybody want to debate me? Topic list is below, there are some topics that atheists might want to debate me on too.

Does God Exist? (Pro/Con)
Strong Atheism is a sound position (Pro)
Life is most likely intelligently designed (Con)
The Problem of Evil is Sound (Con)
Jesus was a historical figure (Pro/Con)
Assuming the NT Miracles are true, God is the best explanation (Con)
Theistic Moral Systems are destructive (Pro)

Leave a message if interested.

Why the flip on POE? You were once a strong supporter of the position? Or are you simply looking to exercise 'debate skills'?

I am a moral non-cognitivist (which strongly implies moral nihilism). To make 'moral' cognitive the term 'good' can just be defined as 'being in accordance with God's nature' (Goos is good by his own nature, or his own attribute) and then P2 "Evil exists" can no longer be demonstrated true, since claims about the content of 'Good' or 'Evil' cannot be justified.

That's the only defence I see possible against the PoE, but it seems pretty sound.
Wylted
Posts: 21,167
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11/10/2014 4:48:25 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/7/2014 8:26:04 AM, Envisage wrote:
Does anybody want to debate me? Topic list is below, there are some topics that atheists might want to debate me on too.

Does God Exist? (Pro/Con)
Strong Atheism is a sound position (Pro)
Life is most likely intelligently designed (Con)
The Problem of Evil is Sound (Con)
Jesus was a historical figure (Pro/Con)
Assuming the NT Miracles are true, God is the best explanation (Con)
Theistic Moral Systems are destructive (Pro)

Leave a message if interested.

I'm pro on Jesus existing, you?
Envisage
Posts: 3,646
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11/10/2014 4:49:23 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/10/2014 4:29:52 PM, neutral wrote:
At 10/7/2014 8:26:04 AM, Envisage wrote:
Does anybody want to debate me? Topic list is below, there are some topics that atheists might want to debate me on too.

Does God Exist? (Pro/Con)
Strong Atheism is a sound position (Pro)
Life is most likely intelligently designed (Con)
The Problem of Evil is Sound (Con)
Jesus was a historical figure (Pro/Con)
Assuming the NT Miracles are true, God is the best explanation (Con)
Theistic Moral Systems are destructive (Pro)

Leave a message if interested.

Why the flip on POE? You were once a strong supporter of the position? Or are you simply looking to exercise 'debate skills'?

Note that IF it was accepted that "Evil exists", then my position is very strongly Pro PoE, since I find the premise "If God exists, then evil cannot exist" to be sound (and hence both premises of the argument are true, and the conclusion follows).

Some theists do accept "Evil exists", so I do sometimes use this argument if that concession is made.
Envisage
Posts: 3,646
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11/10/2014 4:51:36 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/10/2014 4:48:25 PM, Wylted wrote:
At 10/7/2014 8:26:04 AM, Envisage wrote:
Does anybody want to debate me? Topic list is below, there are some topics that atheists might want to debate me on too.

Does God Exist? (Pro/Con)
Strong Atheism is a sound position (Pro)
Life is most likely intelligently designed (Con)
The Problem of Evil is Sound (Con)
Jesus was a historical figure (Pro/Con)
Assuming the NT Miracles are true, God is the best explanation (Con)
Theistic Moral Systems are destructive (Pro)

Leave a message if interested.

I'm pro on Jesus existing, you?

I don't really have a position on it (probably a slight Pro-lean, but definitely not a very convinced if I am). I can go Con, I have a bunch of stuff on both sides, so it can be done.
Wylted
Posts: 21,167
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11/10/2014 5:03:27 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/10/2014 4:51:36 PM, Envisage wrote:
At 11/10/2014 4:48:25 PM, Wylted wrote:
At 10/7/2014 8:26:04 AM, Envisage wrote:
Does anybody want to debate me? Topic list is below, there are some topics that atheists might want to debate me on too.

Does God Exist? (Pro/Con)
Strong Atheism is a sound position (Pro)
Life is most likely intelligently designed (Con)
The Problem of Evil is Sound (Con)
Jesus was a historical figure (Pro/Con)
Assuming the NT Miracles are true, God is the best explanation (Con)
Theistic Moral Systems are destructive (Pro)

Leave a message if interested.

I'm pro on Jesus existing, you?

I don't really have a position on it (probably a slight Pro-lean, but definitely not a very convinced if I am). I can go Con, I have a bunch of stuff on both sides, so it can be done.

I haven't looked at the con side too much at all. My guess is it would be childish crap like doubting the historical record because his followers created some myths around him. Even Julia's Caeser, Alexander the Great, Napolean and a ton of other historical figures had mythologies surrounding them after death. Julia's Caeser claimed to be descended from a god (just like Jesus), had people following him started worshipping him, atheists probably would start doubting his existence.
Envisage
Posts: 3,646
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11/10/2014 5:07:22 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/10/2014 5:03:27 PM, Wylted wrote:
At 11/10/2014 4:51:36 PM, Envisage wrote:
At 11/10/2014 4:48:25 PM, Wylted wrote:
At 10/7/2014 8:26:04 AM, Envisage wrote:
Does anybody want to debate me? Topic list is below, there are some topics that atheists might want to debate me on too.

Does God Exist? (Pro/Con)
Strong Atheism is a sound position (Pro)
Life is most likely intelligently designed (Con)
The Problem of Evil is Sound (Con)
Jesus was a historical figure (Pro/Con)
Assuming the NT Miracles are true, God is the best explanation (Con)
Theistic Moral Systems are destructive (Pro)

Leave a message if interested.

I'm pro on Jesus existing, you?

I don't really have a position on it (probably a slight Pro-lean, but definitely not a very convinced if I am). I can go Con, I have a bunch of stuff on both sides, so it can be done.

I haven't looked at the con side too much at all. My guess is it would be childish crap like doubting the historical record because his followers created some myths around him. Even Julia's Caeser, Alexander the Great, Napolean and a ton of other historical figures had mythologies surrounding them after death. Julia's Caeser claimed to be descended from a god (just like Jesus), had people following him started worshipping him, atheists probably would start doubting his existence.

Um, no. You seriously cannot be comparing the evidence in favour of the existence of Julius Caesar to that of Jesus? If you were to debate 'we have as much reason to believe Caesar existed as we do Jesus' it would not end well for you.

I will expand on this if you want but I am pretty sure you are aware of the gravity of what you are claiming already
Wylted
Posts: 21,167
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11/10/2014 5:10:28 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/10/2014 5:07:22 PM, Envisage wrote:
At 11/10/2014 5:03:27 PM, Wylted wrote:
At 11/10/2014 4:51:36 PM, Envisage wrote:
At 11/10/2014 4:48:25 PM, Wylted wrote:
At 10/7/2014 8:26:04 AM, Envisage wrote:
Does anybody want to debate me? Topic list is below, there are some topics that atheists might want to debate me on too.

Does God Exist? (Pro/Con)
Strong Atheism is a sound position (Pro)
Life is most likely intelligently designed (Con)
The Problem of Evil is Sound (Con)
Jesus was a historical figure (Pro/Con)
Assuming the NT Miracles are true, God is the best explanation (Con)
Theistic Moral Systems are destructive (Pro)

Leave a message if interested.

I'm pro on Jesus existing, you?

I don't really have a position on it (probably a slight Pro-lean, but definitely not a very convinced if I am). I can go Con, I have a bunch of stuff on both sides, so it can be done.

I haven't looked at the con side too much at all. My guess is it would be childish crap like doubting the historical record because his followers created some myths around him. Even Julia's Caeser, Alexander the Great, Napolean and a ton of other historical figures had mythologies surrounding them after death. Julia's Caeser claimed to be descended from a god (just like Jesus), had people following him started worshipping him, atheists probably would start doubting his existence.

Um, no. You seriously cannot be comparing the evidence in favour of the existence of Julius Caesar to that of Jesus? If you were to debate 'we have as much reason to believe Caesar existed as we do Jesus' it would not end well for you.

I will expand on this if you want but I am pretty sure you are aware of the gravity of what you are claiming already

Certainly there is more evidence for Caesar. I was mainly speaking on the only disqualifiers that come to mind. Jesus was a peasant with a following no bigger than 100 people. Certainly the evidence for Jesus would be more scarce. It's amazing any evidence for him remains
neutral
Posts: 4,478
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11/10/2014 5:13:38 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/10/2014 4:49:23 PM, Envisage wrote:
At 11/10/2014 4:29:52 PM, neutral wrote:
At 10/7/2014 8:26:04 AM, Envisage wrote:
Does anybody want to debate me? Topic list is below, there are some topics that atheists might want to debate me on too.

Does God Exist? (Pro/Con)
Strong Atheism is a sound position (Pro)
Life is most likely intelligently designed (Con)
The Problem of Evil is Sound (Con)
Jesus was a historical figure (Pro/Con)
Assuming the NT Miracles are true, God is the best explanation (Con)
Theistic Moral Systems are destructive (Pro)

Leave a message if interested.

Why the flip on POE? You were once a strong supporter of the position? Or are you simply looking to exercise 'debate skills'?

Note that IF it was accepted that "Evil exists", then my position is very strongly Pro PoE, since I find the premise "If God exists, then evil cannot exist" to be sound (and hence both premises of the argument are true, and the conclusion follows).

Some theists do accept "Evil exists", so I do sometimes use this argument if that concession is made.

Thanks for the clarification.

Things are finally slowing down here, I might just take you up on that premise in a week or so if you are willing ;-)
Envisage
Posts: 3,646
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11/10/2014 5:16:57 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/10/2014 5:10:28 PM, Wylted wrote:
At 11/10/2014 5:07:22 PM, Envisage wrote:
At 11/10/2014 5:03:27 PM, Wylted wrote:
At 11/10/2014 4:51:36 PM, Envisage wrote:
At 11/10/2014 4:48:25 PM, Wylted wrote:
At 10/7/2014 8:26:04 AM, Envisage wrote:
Does anybody want to debate me? Topic list is below, there are some topics that atheists might want to debate me on too.

Does God Exist? (Pro/Con)
Strong Atheism is a sound position (Pro)
Life is most likely intelligently designed (Con)
The Problem of Evil is Sound (Con)
Jesus was a historical figure (Pro/Con)
Assuming the NT Miracles are true, God is the best explanation (Con)
Theistic Moral Systems are destructive (Pro)

Leave a message if interested.

I'm pro on Jesus existing, you?

I don't really have a position on it (probably a slight Pro-lean, but definitely not a very convinced if I am). I can go Con, I have a bunch of stuff on both sides, so it can be done.

I haven't looked at the con side too much at all. My guess is it would be childish crap like doubting the historical record because his followers created some myths around him. Even Julia's Caeser, Alexander the Great, Napolean and a ton of other historical figures had mythologies surrounding them after death. Julia's Caeser claimed to be descended from a god (just like Jesus), had people following him started worshipping him, atheists probably would start doubting his existence.

Um, no. You seriously cannot be comparing the evidence in favour of the existence of Julius Caesar to that of Jesus? If you were to debate 'we have as much reason to believe Caesar existed as we do Jesus' it would not end well for you.

I will expand on this if you want but I am pretty sure you are aware of the gravity of what you are claiming already

Certainly there is more evidence for Caesar. I was mainly speaking on the only disqualifiers that come to mind. Jesus was a peasant with a following no bigger than 100 people. Certainly the evidence for Jesus would be more scarce. It's amazing any evidence for him remains

You are looking at the case from a starting point that Jesus exists (which is apparent, from the way you are phrasing your sentences), which is an incorrect way of making an enquiry. Assuming the null hypothesis (Not to believe in something's existence a priori) is significantly more rational.
Envisage
Posts: 3,646
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11/10/2014 5:17:42 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/10/2014 5:13:38 PM, neutral wrote:
At 11/10/2014 4:49:23 PM, Envisage wrote:
At 11/10/2014 4:29:52 PM, neutral wrote:
At 10/7/2014 8:26:04 AM, Envisage wrote:
Does anybody want to debate me? Topic list is below, there are some topics that atheists might want to debate me on too.

Does God Exist? (Pro/Con)
Strong Atheism is a sound position (Pro)
Life is most likely intelligently designed (Con)
The Problem of Evil is Sound (Con)
Jesus was a historical figure (Pro/Con)
Assuming the NT Miracles are true, God is the best explanation (Con)
Theistic Moral Systems are destructive (Pro)

Leave a message if interested.

Why the flip on POE? You were once a strong supporter of the position? Or are you simply looking to exercise 'debate skills'?

Note that IF it was accepted that "Evil exists", then my position is very strongly Pro PoE, since I find the premise "If God exists, then evil cannot exist" to be sound (and hence both premises of the argument are true, and the conclusion follows).

Some theists do accept "Evil exists", so I do sometimes use this argument if that concession is made.

Thanks for the clarification.

Things are finally slowing down here, I might just take you up on that premise in a week or so if you are willing ;-)

"Assuming Evil Exists, God does not exist" ?

Sure.
Wylted
Posts: 21,167
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11/10/2014 5:19:48 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/10/2014 5:16:57 PM, Envisage wrote:
At 11/10/2014 5:10:28 PM, Wylted wrote:
At 11/10/2014 5:07:22 PM, Envisage wrote:
At 11/10/2014 5:03:27 PM, Wylted wrote:
At 11/10/2014 4:51:36 PM, Envisage wrote:
At 11/10/2014 4:48:25 PM, Wylted wrote:
At 10/7/2014 8:26:04 AM, Envisage wrote:
Does anybody want to debate me? Topic list is below, there are some topics that atheists might want to debate me on too.

Does God Exist? (Pro/Con)
Strong Atheism is a sound position (Pro)
Life is most likely intelligently designed (Con)
The Problem of Evil is Sound (Con)
Jesus was a historical figure (Pro/Con)
Assuming the NT Miracles are true, God is the best explanation (Con)
Theistic Moral Systems are destructive (Pro)

Leave a message if interested.

I'm pro on Jesus existing, you?

I don't really have a position on it (probably a slight Pro-lean, but definitely not a very convinced if I am). I can go Con, I have a bunch of stuff on both sides, so it can be done.

I haven't looked at the con side too much at all. My guess is it would be childish crap like doubting the historical record because his followers created some myths around him. Even Julia's Caeser, Alexander the Great, Napolean and a ton of other historical figures had mythologies surrounding them after death. Julia's Caeser claimed to be descended from a god (just like Jesus), had people following him started worshipping him, atheists probably would start doubting his existence.

Um, no. You seriously cannot be comparing the evidence in favour of the existence of Julius Caesar to that of Jesus? If you were to debate 'we have as much reason to believe Caesar existed as we do Jesus' it would not end well for you.

I will expand on this if you want but I am pretty sure you are aware of the gravity of what you are claiming already

Certainly there is more evidence for Caesar. I was mainly speaking on the only disqualifiers that come to mind. Jesus was a peasant with a following no bigger than 100 people. Certainly the evidence for Jesus would be more scarce. It's amazing any evidence for him remains

You are looking at the case from a starting point that Jesus exists (which is apparent, from the way you are phrasing your sentences), which is an incorrect way of making an enquiry. Assuming the null hypothesis (Not to believe in something's existence a priori) is significantly more rational.

I've previously looked at how historians determine if a historical event is true or not and according to their methods it seems that the existence of Jesus should be seen as historical fact. I had mentioned this in a debate where I played devil's advocate against that one militant atheist that debated a lot and has since left the site. I'm going to see if I can dig it up.
Envisage
Posts: 3,646
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11/10/2014 5:25:24 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/10/2014 5:19:48 PM, Wylted wrote:
At 11/10/2014 5:16:57 PM, Envisage wrote:
At 11/10/2014 5:10:28 PM, Wylted wrote:
At 11/10/2014 5:07:22 PM, Envisage wrote:
At 11/10/2014 5:03:27 PM, Wylted wrote:
At 11/10/2014 4:51:36 PM, Envisage wrote:
At 11/10/2014 4:48:25 PM, Wylted wrote:
At 10/7/2014 8:26:04 AM, Envisage wrote:
Does anybody want to debate me? Topic list is below, there are some topics that atheists might want to debate me on too.

Does God Exist? (Pro/Con)
Strong Atheism is a sound position (Pro)
Life is most likely intelligently designed (Con)
The Problem of Evil is Sound (Con)
Jesus was a historical figure (Pro/Con)
Assuming the NT Miracles are true, God is the best explanation (Con)
Theistic Moral Systems are destructive (Pro)

Leave a message if interested.

I'm pro on Jesus existing, you?

I don't really have a position on it (probably a slight Pro-lean, but definitely not a very convinced if I am). I can go Con, I have a bunch of stuff on both sides, so it can be done.

I haven't looked at the con side too much at all. My guess is it would be childish crap like doubting the historical record because his followers created some myths around him. Even Julia's Caeser, Alexander the Great, Napolean and a ton of other historical figures had mythologies surrounding them after death. Julia's Caeser claimed to be descended from a god (just like Jesus), had people following him started worshipping him, atheists probably would start doubting his existence.

Um, no. You seriously cannot be comparing the evidence in favour of the existence of Julius Caesar to that of Jesus? If you were to debate 'we have as much reason to believe Caesar existed as we do Jesus' it would not end well for you.

I will expand on this if you want but I am pretty sure you are aware of the gravity of what you are claiming already

Certainly there is more evidence for Caesar. I was mainly speaking on the only disqualifiers that come to mind. Jesus was a peasant with a following no bigger than 100 people. Certainly the evidence for Jesus would be more scarce. It's amazing any evidence for him remains

You are looking at the case from a starting point that Jesus exists (which is apparent, from the way you are phrasing your sentences), which is an incorrect way of making an enquiry. Assuming the null hypothesis (Not to believe in something's existence a priori) is significantly more rational.

I've previously looked at how historians determine if a historical event is true or not and according to their methods it seems that the existence of Jesus should be seen as historical fact. I had mentioned this in a debate where I played devil's advocate against that one militant atheist that debated a lot and has since left the site. I'm going to see if I can dig it up.

Show me, I would be interested.

Well, it seems to me that we have hardly anything left once we cut off the parts of the NT that are highly dubious in authenticity (would would include every single syllable that Jesus is purported to have spoken, and virtually all of Jesus' childhood stories). Probably only the crucifixion and baptism are not highly dubious.

Then when you look at the order in which the books of the NT were written, who they were written by, and how oral traditions spread, change, and consider the general culture and atmosphere of the time.

With all that considered, I don't find Jesus' existence as a very convincing fact, even if it were true it would be one of the weakest facts I would accept to be true, much weaker than Julius or Alexander the Great's or even Socrates, who never wrote anything (that we still have).
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,924
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11/10/2014 5:25:26 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/10/2014 5:17:42 PM, Envisage wrote:
At 11/10/2014 5:13:38 PM, neutral wrote:
At 11/10/2014 4:49:23 PM, Envisage wrote:
At 11/10/2014 4:29:52 PM, neutral wrote:
At 10/7/2014 8:26:04 AM, Envisage wrote:
Does anybody want to debate me? Topic list is below, there are some topics that atheists might want to debate me on too.

Does God Exist? (Pro/Con)
Strong Atheism is a sound position (Pro)
Life is most likely intelligently designed (Con)
The Problem of Evil is Sound (Con)
Jesus was a historical figure (Pro/Con)
Assuming the NT Miracles are true, God is the best explanation (Con)
Theistic Moral Systems are destructive (Pro)

Leave a message if interested.

Why the flip on POE? You were once a strong supporter of the position? Or are you simply looking to exercise 'debate skills'?

Note that IF it was accepted that "Evil exists", then my position is very strongly Pro PoE, since I find the premise "If God exists, then evil cannot exist" to be sound (and hence both premises of the argument are true, and the conclusion follows).

Some theists do accept "Evil exists", so I do sometimes use this argument if that concession is made.

Thanks for the clarification.

Things are finally slowing down here, I might just take you up on that premise in a week or so if you are willing ;-)

"Assuming Evil Exists, God does not exist" ?

Sure.

Any evil? I'll take that.
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
Wylted
Posts: 21,167
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11/10/2014 5:25:29 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/10/2014 5:16:57 PM, Envisage wrote:
At 11/10/2014 5:10:28 PM, Wylted wrote:
At 11/10/2014 5:07:22 PM, Envisage wrote:
At 11/10/2014 5:03:27 PM, Wylted wrote:
At 11/10/2014 4:51:36 PM, Envisage wrote:
At 11/10/2014 4:48:25 PM, Wylted wrote:
At 10/7/2014 8:26:04 AM, Envisage wrote:
Does anybody want to debate me? Topic list is below, there are some topics that atheists might want to debate me on too.

Does God Exist? (Pro/Con)
Strong Atheism is a sound position (Pro)
Life is most likely intelligently designed (Con)
The Problem of Evil is Sound (Con)
Jesus was a historical figure (Pro/Con)
Assuming the NT Miracles are true, God is the best explanation (Con)
Theistic Moral Systems are destructive (Pro)

Leave a message if interested.

I'm pro on Jesus existing, you?

I don't really have a position on it (probably a slight Pro-lean, but definitely not a very convinced if I am). I can go Con, I have a bunch of stuff on both sides, so it can be done.

I haven't looked at the con side too much at all. My guess is it would be childish crap like doubting the historical record because his followers created some myths around him. Even Julia's Caeser, Alexander the Great, Napolean and a ton of other historical figures had mythologies surrounding them after death. Julia's Caeser claimed to be descended from a god (just like Jesus), had people following him started worshipping him, atheists probably would start doubting his existence.

Um, no. You seriously cannot be comparing the evidence in favour of the existence of Julius Caesar to that of Jesus? If you were to debate 'we have as much reason to believe Caesar existed as we do Jesus' it would not end well for you.

I will expand on this if you want but I am pretty sure you are aware of the gravity of what you are claiming already

Certainly there is more evidence for Caesar. I was mainly speaking on the only disqualifiers that come to mind. Jesus was a peasant with a following no bigger than 100 people. Certainly the evidence for Jesus would be more scarce. It's amazing any evidence for him remains

You are looking at the case from a starting point that Jesus exists (which is apparent, from the way you are phrasing your sentences), which is an incorrect way of making an enquiry. Assuming the null hypothesis (Not to believe in something's existence a priori) is significantly more rational.

http://www.debate.org...
Envisage
Posts: 3,646
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11/10/2014 5:29:50 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/10/2014 5:25:26 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 11/10/2014 5:17:42 PM, Envisage wrote:
At 11/10/2014 5:13:38 PM, neutral wrote:
At 11/10/2014 4:49:23 PM, Envisage wrote:
At 11/10/2014 4:29:52 PM, neutral wrote:
At 10/7/2014 8:26:04 AM, Envisage wrote:
Does anybody want to debate me? Topic list is below, there are some topics that atheists might want to debate me on too.

Does God Exist? (Pro/Con)
Strong Atheism is a sound position (Pro)
Life is most likely intelligently designed (Con)
The Problem of Evil is Sound (Con)
Jesus was a historical figure (Pro/Con)
Assuming the NT Miracles are true, God is the best explanation (Con)
Theistic Moral Systems are destructive (Pro)

Leave a message if interested.

Why the flip on POE? You were once a strong supporter of the position? Or are you simply looking to exercise 'debate skills'?

Note that IF it was accepted that "Evil exists", then my position is very strongly Pro PoE, since I find the premise "If God exists, then evil cannot exist" to be sound (and hence both premises of the argument are true, and the conclusion follows).

Some theists do accept "Evil exists", so I do sometimes use this argument if that concession is made.

Thanks for the clarification.

Things are finally slowing down here, I might just take you up on that premise in a week or so if you are willing ;-)

"Assuming Evil Exists, God does not exist" ?

Sure.

Any evil? I'll take that.

Not interested in the other topics? Since Neut called dibs on it...