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What would make you change your mind?

SNP1
Posts: 2,404
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10/9/2014 8:20:09 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
I see a lot of questions like, "Why are you an atheist?" or "Why are you a theist?".

This ignores one of the most important questions, especially on a debate website.

What would make you change your mind about the existence of a god?

I have heard from some theists that someone must prove with 100% certainty a negative(god's non-existence), which is illogical.

So, what about YOU? What would make you change your mind?
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RoderickSpode
Posts: 2,382
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10/9/2014 10:51:01 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/9/2014 8:20:09 AM, SNP1 wrote:
I see a lot of questions like, "Why are you an atheist?" or "Why are you a theist?".

This ignores one of the most important questions, especially on a debate website.

What would make you change your mind about the existence of a god?

I have heard from some theists that someone must prove with 100% certainty a negative(god's non-existence), which is illogical.

So, what about YOU? What would make you change your mind?
It goes far deeper than just someone presenting some external evidence placed in an article or book even if it could somehow be suggested as 100% certainty as that claim is made fairly regularly.

To change my mind would be the equivalent to having it proved that I'm merely in a dream state in an aliens lab. If I woke up in some sort of lab, saw the wires hooked to my head, the aliens standing around me explaining that I was dreaming about living in a fictional society, with fictional people, believing in a fictional God, then I wouldn't really have much more to say about it.
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,924
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10/9/2014 11:06:10 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
If I came to believe:
Jesus never existed.
Physicalism is true.
Moral realism is false.
Scientism is true.

Etc
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
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Fly
Posts: 2,047
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10/9/2014 11:33:04 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
I once told a Christian coworker that if I saw a clear violation of physical laws, such as someone falling off a precipice and being gently levitated to safety, I would seriously reconsider my non-belief.

Completely undeniable proof would be a message appearing in the sky that everyone on earth could read and understand declaring His Lordship.

Or, on a more personal level, George Burns (RIP) showing up at my door saying, "Remember me from the movie 'Oh, God'? I wasn't acting..."
"You don't have a right to be a jerk."
--Religion Forum's hypocrite extraordinaire serving up lulz
SNP1
Posts: 2,404
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10/9/2014 11:46:52 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/9/2014 11:06:10 AM, popculturepooka wrote:
If I came to believe:
Jesus never existed.

Why? Jesus could have been a historical figure. I do not take that position, but him being historical does not seem, to me, to indicate religion.

Physicalism is true.

Ontological materialism or pure materialism?

Moral realism is false.

Okay.

Scientism is true.

Why does this have a role? I also love philosophy. Not everything in philosophy is science.

Etc

Okay
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neutral
Posts: 4,478
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10/9/2014 11:54:54 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/9/2014 8:20:09 AM, SNP1 wrote:
I see a lot of questions like, "Why are you an atheist?" or "Why are you a theist?".

This ignores one of the most important questions, especially on a debate website.

What would make you change your mind about the existence of a god?

I have heard from some theists that someone must prove with 100% certainty a negative(god's non-existence), which is illogical.

So, what about YOU? What would make you change your mind?

Evidence.

This is something that many atheists, especially those that go around in circles about their burden of proof don't seem to grasp (IMHO, that argument is about maintaining your position - not convincing someone else), struggle with.

Admittedly, its harder to disprove something convincingly than to prove it, but given the inductive evidence and dearth of certainty regarding God it really does come down to the argument that best explains things with evidence in support.

If the goal is to convince other people that your position at least hold credibility worth considering, then it must be backed by SOME KIND OF EVIDENCE.

Unfortunately, the latest atheist apologetics are ... not good in this area, with Dawkins saying evolution disproves God, while focusing on Creationism (after several denominations of Christianity openly embraced evolution), Hitchens saying everything is poison based on ... shoddy work, and Harris essentially advocating a Crusade.

These are not exactly things that will make someone change their mind when examined. They are polemics that will attract a certain kind of person though.
SNP1
Posts: 2,404
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10/9/2014 12:02:14 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/9/2014 11:54:54 AM, neutral wrote:
At 10/9/2014 8:20:09 AM, SNP1 wrote:
I see a lot of questions like, "Why are you an atheist?" or "Why are you a theist?".

This ignores one of the most important questions, especially on a debate website.

What would make you change your mind about the existence of a god?

I have heard from some theists that someone must prove with 100% certainty a negative(god's non-existence), which is illogical.

So, what about YOU? What would make you change your mind?

Evidence.

What type of evidence?

This is something that many atheists, especially those that go around in circles about their burden of proof don't seem to grasp (IMHO, that argument is about maintaining your position - not convincing someone else), struggle with.

How do you propose someone find evidence of non-existence?
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popculturepooka
Posts: 7,924
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10/9/2014 12:05:06 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/9/2014 11:46:52 AM, SNP1 wrote:
At 10/9/2014 11:06:10 AM, popculturepooka wrote:
If I came to believe:
Jesus never existed.

Why? Jesus could have been a historical figure. I do not take that position, but him being historical does not seem, to me, to indicate religion.


He could have been, but if he were just some regular guy who preached some radical stuff then he doesn't have that much religious import (or at least, as much as needed to justify the faith).

"13But if there is no resurrection of the dead, not even Christ has been raised; 14and if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is vain, your faith also is vain. 15Moreover we are even found to be false witnesses of God, because we testified against God that He raised Christ, whom He did not raise, if in fact the dead are not raised.""

Physicalism is true.

Ontological materialism or pure materialism?


Any sort of physicalism - whether it be reductive or non-reductive.

Moral realism is false.

Okay.

Scientism is true.

Why does this have a role? I also love philosophy. Not everything in philosophy is science.


I know. But if it were true that all knowledge is scientfic knowledge and knowledge of God were not scientific knowledge then it follows then there can be no knowledge of God.

Etc

Okay
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
SNP1
Posts: 2,404
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10/9/2014 12:09:33 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/9/2014 12:05:06 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 10/9/2014 11:46:52 AM, SNP1 wrote:
At 10/9/2014 11:06:10 AM, popculturepooka wrote:
If I came to believe:
Jesus never existed.

Why? Jesus could have been a historical figure. I do not take that position, but him being historical does not seem, to me, to indicate religion.


He could have been, but if he were just some regular guy who preached some radical stuff then he doesn't have that much religious import (or at least, as much as needed to justify the faith).

"13But if there is no resurrection of the dead, not even Christ has been raised; 14and if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is vain, your faith also is vain. 15Moreover we are even found to be false witnesses of God, because we testified against God that He raised Christ, whom He did not raise, if in fact the dead are not raised.""

Physicalism is true.

Ontological materialism or pure materialism?


Any sort of physicalism - whether it be reductive or non-reductive.

Moral realism is false.

Okay.

Scientism is true.

Why does this have a role? I also love philosophy. Not everything in philosophy is science.


I know. But if it were true that all knowledge is scientfic knowledge and knowledge of God were not scientific knowledge then it follows then there can be no knowledge of God.

Etc

Okay

Are you looking for near 100% certainty of non-existence? That is what it seems like.
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popculturepooka
Posts: 7,924
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10/9/2014 12:18:45 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/9/2014 12:09:33 PM, SNP1 wrote:
At 10/9/2014 12:05:06 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 10/9/2014 11:46:52 AM, SNP1 wrote:
At 10/9/2014 11:06:10 AM, popculturepooka wrote:
If I came to believe:
Jesus never existed.

Why? Jesus could have been a historical figure. I do not take that position, but him being historical does not seem, to me, to indicate religion.


He could have been, but if he were just some regular guy who preached some radical stuff then he doesn't have that much religious import (or at least, as much as needed to justify the faith).

"13But if there is no resurrection of the dead, not even Christ has been raised; 14and if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is vain, your faith also is vain. 15Moreover we are even found to be false witnesses of God, because we testified against God that He raised Christ, whom He did not raise, if in fact the dead are not raised.""

Physicalism is true.

Ontological materialism or pure materialism?


Any sort of physicalism - whether it be reductive or non-reductive.

Moral realism is false.

Okay.

Scientism is true.

Why does this have a role? I also love philosophy. Not everything in philosophy is science.


I know. But if it were true that all knowledge is scientfic knowledge and knowledge of God were not scientific knowledge then it follows then there can be no knowledge of God.

Etc

Okay

Are you looking for near 100% certainty of non-existence? That is what it seems like.

No. I'm not near 100% certain that God exists, but I am reasonably confident that she does;. All I need to is to be convinced is to be reasonably confident that she doesn/t. I've been in philosophy too long to wait on near 100% certainty for proportioning my belief.
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
SNP1
Posts: 2,404
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10/9/2014 12:23:18 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/9/2014 12:18:45 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 10/9/2014 12:09:33 PM, SNP1 wrote:
Are you looking for near 100% certainty of non-existence? That is what it seems like.

No. I'm not near 100% certain that God exists, but I am reasonably confident that she does;. All I need to is to be convinced is to be reasonably confident that she doesn/t. I've been in philosophy too long to wait on near 100% certainty for proportioning my belief.

Ah, that is good. I was afraid that you were one of those that wanted almost absolute certainty instead of basing it more-so off of probability.

Out of curiosity, since you are not a materialist/physcalist, what position do you hold? Dualism? Idealism? Etc? And why?
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LostintheEcho1498
Posts: 234
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10/9/2014 2:10:35 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Honestly, I don't know. With the life I have lived there is little to no doubt in my mind as to His existence. I guess the only way I would know he doesn't exist is the afterlife. I guess we shall see..
Beastt
Posts: 5,135
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10/9/2014 2:17:42 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Solid objective evidence. Nothing we've discovered so far does other than to support the lack of a God.
"If we believe absurdities we shall commit atrocities." -- Voltaire
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,924
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10/9/2014 3:09:09 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/9/2014 12:23:18 PM, SNP1 wrote:
At 10/9/2014 12:18:45 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 10/9/2014 12:09:33 PM, SNP1 wrote:
Are you looking for near 100% certainty of non-existence? That is what it seems like.

No. I'm not near 100% certain that God exists, but I am reasonably confident that she does;. All I need to is to be convinced is to be reasonably confident that she doesn/t. I've been in philosophy too long to wait on near 100% certainty for proportioning my belief.

Ah, that is good. I was afraid that you were one of those that wanted almost absolute certainty instead of basing it more-so off of probability.

Out of curiosity, since you are not a materialist/physcalist, what position do you hold? Dualism? Idealism? Etc? And why?

Dualism. I find arguments from inverse and absent qualia very convincing.
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!