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Straying between Islam and Deism

ArKhani
Posts: 7
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10/9/2014 5:15:38 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
G'day friends.

A second generation Iranian expatriat here :)

After years of going from cultural/traditional/non-practising muslim over atheism to agnosticism and eventually embracing Islam as my religion a couple of months ago(after Ramadan) I finally gave in to my constant doubts that were plaguing me ever since saying the shahada for the first time.

I do not at all believe in the abrahamitic concept of Hell and Heaven, especially not since I read the incredibly detailed descriptions of it in Quran.

I simply do not believe that the one god needs to go the rather 'primitive' way of Operant Conditioning, of Reinforcement and Punishment. It just seems too simple and man-made to me.

I hate the dogmatism that is predominant in the Islamic world today.

I feel like the religion is perfect if everyone in a community abided by it, but then again isn't that valid for every ideology?

The Islamic way of life seems to me like the most elaborate and extensive approach to a rational and prolific life, free of fear and always with the devotion to sacrifice oneself for ultimate justice; the way of controlling ones nafs to acquire Taqwa and thus carving the way to receiving enlightenment to ultimately be able to distinguish just from injsut.

It all seems so perfect, but I just can't ignore the downside of yet another closed system of thought, which Islam certainly is.
Here's the reality:
The uncompromising character of Islam and the Quran don't allow any improvement of the situation, once things go all wrong(or at least so do I think).

Islam might have been perfect while the messenger(pbuh&hf) was there, but after his time was over and the kuffar revealed their true despicable faces(especially beginning with the Caliphate of Ali(as)), the course was set to what eventually lead to todays heartbreaking circumstances.

According to Islam I'm a kafir for denying the precise concepts(and the application) of afterlife as described in the Quran and for disagreeing with some of the boundaries set by it.

But I'm just beign honest. I felt so bad about this issue that at some point quit Salāt altogether because I couldn't stand the spiritual dizziness after each prayer, suddenly I was upset and disgusted with many of the customs of muslimic culture.

At the same time I'm very upset about all the different madhabs in Islam; when trying to find truth through research, what I find mostly is the members of the different madhabs cursing and arguing with each other, calling each others infidels and brainwashed.
My closest muslimic family members annoy and upset me as well with their politicisation of Islam, shifting their priorities.

Also I have the issue that sometimes I am amazed by the beauty of our messengers and his Sahabis lives and deeds, at other times I am disgusted by their apparent stubbornness and shortsightedness in some issues, ignoring how the vagueness of their sayings would lead to severe conflicts in their Ummah.

Seeing how I apparently went astray, I decided not to call myself muslim anymore, as I can't say I believe in the one deity as presented by the Quran.

However I generally still try to follow the Islamic teachings, as I 'believe' in controlling my desires, doing good deeds and ultimately devoting my life to justice.

I will keep saying Inshallah, Bismillah, Alhamdulillah and Subhan Allah ;)

What are your thoughts? Also this is my first post, please forgive me if I overlooked any kind of netiquette, in which case I'd appreciate to be briefed.
As Salamu Alaykum.
Mhykiel
Posts: 5,987
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10/9/2014 5:36:25 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/9/2014 5:15:38 PM, ArKhani wrote:
G'day friends.

A second generation Iranian expatriat here :)

After years of going from cultural/traditional/non-practising muslim over atheism to agnosticism and eventually embracing Islam as my religion a couple of months ago(after Ramadan) I finally gave in to my constant doubts that were plaguing me ever since saying the shahada for the first time.

I do not at all believe in the abrahamitic concept of Hell and Heaven, especially not since I read the incredibly detailed descriptions of it in Quran.

I simply do not believe that the one god needs to go the rather 'primitive' way of Operant Conditioning, of Reinforcement and Punishment. It just seems too simple and man-made to me.

I hate the dogmatism that is predominant in the Islamic world today.

I feel like the religion is perfect if everyone in a community abided by it, but then again isn't that valid for every ideology?

The Islamic way of life seems to me like the most elaborate and extensive approach to a rational and prolific life, free of fear and always with the devotion to sacrifice oneself for ultimate justice; the way of controlling ones nafs to acquire Taqwa and thus carving the way to receiving enlightenment to ultimately be able to distinguish just from injsut.

It all seems so perfect, but I just can't ignore the downside of yet another closed system of thought, which Islam certainly is.
Here's the reality:
The uncompromising character of Islam and the Quran don't allow any improvement of the situation, once things go all wrong(or at least so do I think).

Islam might have been perfect while the messenger(pbuh&hf) was there, but after his time was over and the kuffar revealed their true despicable faces(especially beginning with the Caliphate of Ali(as)), the course was set to what eventually lead to todays heartbreaking circumstances.

According to Islam I'm a kafir for denying the precise concepts(and the application) of afterlife as described in the Quran and for disagreeing with some of the boundaries set by it.

But I'm just beign honest. I felt so bad about this issue that at some point quit Salāt altogether because I couldn't stand the spiritual dizziness after each prayer, suddenly I was upset and disgusted with many of the customs of muslimic culture.

At the same time I'm very upset about all the different madhabs in Islam; when trying to find truth through research, what I find mostly is the members of the different madhabs cursing and arguing with each other, calling each others infidels and brainwashed.
My closest muslimic family members annoy and upset me as well with their politicisation of Islam, shifting their priorities.

Also I have the issue that sometimes I am amazed by the beauty of our messengers and his Sahabis lives and deeds, at other times I am disgusted by their apparent stubbornness and shortsightedness in some issues, ignoring how the vagueness of their sayings would lead to severe conflicts in their Ummah.

Seeing how I apparently went astray, I decided not to call myself muslim anymore, as I can't say I believe in the one deity as presented by the Quran.

However I generally still try to follow the Islamic teachings, as I 'believe' in controlling my desires, doing good deeds and ultimately devoting my life to justice.

I will keep saying Inshallah, Bismillah, Alhamdulillah and Subhan Allah ;)

What are your thoughts? Also this is my first post, please forgive me if I overlooked any kind of netiquette, in which case I'd appreciate to be briefed.

Doubt is natural and always present. Doubt has been formalized and understood in a variety of systems.

Legally (in the US) the prosecution makes a case for a persons guilt. A jury comes to a consensus if the person's guilt is "beyond a reasonable doubt" in this system the understanding that not everything about a crime can be known or will be discovered. The jury must weigh the evidence they have, against the doubt imposed by what they do not have.

In Logic, doubt is formalized in philosophical doubt and Cartesian doubt.

http://en.wikipedia.org...

Your doubts, do not have to freeze you. Fear freezes some people. But the positive effect of Fear is it gets you ready to run or ready to fight. The choice to run or fight is yours to make. When you do not make the choice you are frozen in fear.

If you enjoy Islam. Then search for God there. If God exists, and is a personal God, then God will help you find God.

I suggest you understand that science does not answer all questions. Logic can not satisfy all inquiries. Just understand how much of your belief is supported by facts. And when your belief is a leap of faith, understand how big that leap is.
mortsdor
Posts: 1,181
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10/9/2014 5:52:58 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
I like catholicism, and the general culture of the community in which I was raised, as well.

I had been quite interested in my religion, and very much personally moved by my religion when I was young.
This contributed to my considering the history of the church, and when I saw that it was contentious, trying to figure out why the Catholic church was in the right...

There's a lot of justifying to do on Catholicism's behalf through the centuries though... and this made me realize that the (catholic)church could not be considered an infallible bastion of truth...
Specifically, it's rather Hard to argue with Martin Luther's complaints against the Catholic church of his time...

this got me to consider the beliefs I held anew.. and in a short time I realized that after having considered them, I no longer believed in much of it.. and was shaky about even claiming to the big picture..

a short time later I realized I no longer believed in God.

Seems like it's easier for people who don't think too much about these things...

Those who do either have to acknowledge that they disagree with aspects of their religion, or admit that they no longer can honestly claim to believe... which makes you feel an outsider/kinda unwelcome in your own community.

and those want to hold onto their religion seem face struggle within themselves over it...

I know after I explained that I no longer believed in the Catholic doctrines, nor did I see any reason to believe in God, my brother was, for several years, very emotional and distressed when it came to thinking about his Religious beliefs (despite saying that he was confident in them) eventually shutting down all such conversation completely with clear aggravation at having considered them.

a couple years went by of my not bringing them up, and his continuing in his activities in the church, as well as holding to political ideas revolving around his religious perspective... and then one day, in passing to another person, he mentioned in front of me that he didn't really believe in explicit doctrines anymore... which was news to me.

Now, I think he'd still rather not discuss these things openly, as he's still probably a bit uncomfortable with the whole thing... And his bride-to-be (recent development!) is Catholic, and such... and raising a family in such a community is rather nice... So I'd imagine he'll continue on in the uncomfortable middle, sliding back into the fold you might say (with as good of intentions in the matter as anyone could have).. and actually convince himself that he's down for believing it all again... And maybe it's worth the self-deception and struggle..

but, his saying that he didn't really believe any particular religious docrines (pretty sure he was staking out a mildly agnostic, deistic, perspective) was definitely the most comfortable and relaxed I'd seen him in discussing religion for a long long time...
Envisage
Posts: 3,646
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10/9/2014 8:37:06 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/9/2014 5:15:38 PM, ArKhani wrote:
G'day friends.

A second generation Iranian expatriat here :)

After years of going from cultural/traditional/non-practising muslim over atheism to agnosticism and eventually embracing Islam as my religion a couple of months ago(after Ramadan) I finally gave in to my constant doubts that were plaguing me ever since saying the shahada for the first time.

I do not at all believe in the abrahamitic concept of Hell and Heaven, especially not since I read the incredibly detailed descriptions of it in Quran.

I simply do not believe that the one god needs to go the rather 'primitive' way of Operant Conditioning, of Reinforcement and Punishment. It just seems too simple and man-made to me.

I hate the dogmatism that is predominant in the Islamic world today.

I feel like the religion is perfect if everyone in a community abided by it, but then again isn't that valid for every ideology?

The Islamic way of life seems to me like the most elaborate and extensive approach to a rational and prolific life, free of fear and always with the devotion to sacrifice oneself for ultimate justice; the way of controlling ones nafs to acquire Taqwa and thus carving the way to receiving enlightenment to ultimately be able to distinguish just from injsut.

It all seems so perfect, but I just can't ignore the downside of yet another closed system of thought, which Islam certainly is.
Here's the reality:
The uncompromising character of Islam and the Quran don't allow any improvement of the situation, once things go all wrong(or at least so do I think).

Islam might have been perfect while the messenger(pbuh&hf) was there, but after his time was over and the kuffar revealed their true despicable faces(especially beginning with the Caliphate of Ali(as)), the course was set to what eventually lead to todays heartbreaking circumstances.

According to Islam I'm a kafir for denying the precise concepts(and the application) of afterlife as described in the Quran and for disagreeing with some of the boundaries set by it.

But I'm just beign honest. I felt so bad about this issue that at some point quit Salāt altogether because I couldn't stand the spiritual dizziness after each prayer, suddenly I was upset and disgusted with many of the customs of muslimic culture.

At the same time I'm very upset about all the different madhabs in Islam; when trying to find truth through research, what I find mostly is the members of the different madhabs cursing and arguing with each other, calling each others infidels and brainwashed.
My closest muslimic family members annoy and upset me as well with their politicisation of Islam, shifting their priorities.

Also I have the issue that sometimes I am amazed by the beauty of our messengers and his Sahabis lives and deeds, at other times I am disgusted by their apparent stubbornness and shortsightedness in some issues, ignoring how the vagueness of their sayings would lead to severe conflicts in their Ummah.

Seeing how I apparently went astray, I decided not to call myself muslim anymore, as I can't say I believe in the one deity as presented by the Quran.

However I generally still try to follow the Islamic teachings, as I 'believe' in controlling my desires, doing good deeds and ultimately devoting my life to justice.

I will keep saying Inshallah, Bismillah, Alhamdulillah and Subhan Allah ;)

What are your thoughts? Also this is my first post, please forgive me if I overlooked any kind of netiquette, in which case I'd appreciate to be briefed.

I would recommend dropping Islam for a while and just being a deist. I know a couple on DDO that did that with Christianity, it gave them the opportunity to assess why they believe what they do and to look at their belief systems from the outside. It's often difficult to see where the problems are when you are stuck in the middle.

Both those people became Christians again but they has refined beliefs, can't be a bad thing if they have genuinely and objectively assessed their beliefs.
POPOO5560
Posts: 2,482
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10/10/2014 12:25:56 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/9/2014 5:15:38 PM, ArKhani wrote:
G'day friends.

A second generation Iranian expatriat here :)

After years of going from cultural/traditional/non-practising muslim over atheism to agnosticism and eventually embracing Islam as my religion a couple of months ago(after Ramadan) I finally gave in to my constant doubts that were plaguing me ever since saying the shahada for the first time.

I do not at all believe in the abrahamitic concept of Hell and Heaven, especially not since I read the incredibly detailed descriptions of it in Quran.

I simply do not believe that the one god needs to go the rather 'primitive' way of Operant Conditioning, of Reinforcement and Punishment. It just seems too simple and man-made to me.

I hate the dogmatism that is predominant in the Islamic world today.

I feel like the religion is perfect if everyone in a community abided by it, but then again isn't that valid for every ideology?

The Islamic way of life seems to me like the most elaborate and extensive approach to a rational and prolific life, free of fear and always with the devotion to sacrifice oneself for ultimate justice; the way of controlling ones nafs to acquire Taqwa and thus carving the way to receiving enlightenment to ultimately be able to distinguish just from injsut.

It all seems so perfect, but I just can't ignore the downside of yet another closed system of thought, which Islam certainly is.
Here's the reality:
The uncompromising character of Islam and the Quran don't allow any improvement of the situation, once things go all wrong(or at least so do I think).

Islam might have been perfect while the messenger(pbuh&hf) was there, but after his time was over and the kuffar revealed their true despicable faces(especially beginning with the Caliphate of Ali(as)), the course was set to what eventually lead to todays heartbreaking circumstances.

According to Islam I'm a kafir for denying the precise concepts(and the application) of afterlife as described in the Quran and for disagreeing with some of the boundaries set by it.

But I'm just beign honest. I felt so bad about this issue that at some point quit Salāt altogether because I couldn't stand the spiritual dizziness after each prayer, suddenly I was upset and disgusted with many of the customs of muslimic culture.

At the same time I'm very upset about all the different madhabs in Islam; when trying to find truth through research, what I find mostly is the members of the different madhabs cursing and arguing with each other, calling each others infidels and brainwashed.
My closest muslimic family members annoy and upset me as well with their politicisation of Islam, shifting their priorities.

Also I have the issue that sometimes I am amazed by the beauty of our messengers and his Sahabis lives and deeds, at other times I am disgusted by their apparent stubbornness and shortsightedness in some issues, ignoring how the vagueness of their sayings would lead to severe conflicts in their Ummah.

Seeing how I apparently went astray, I decided not to call myself muslim anymore, as I can't say I believe in the one deity as presented by the Quran.

However I generally still try to follow the Islamic teachings, as I 'believe' in controlling my desires, doing good deeds and ultimately devoting my life to justice.

I will keep saying Inshallah, Bismillah, Alhamdulillah and Subhan Allah ;)

What are your thoughts? Also this is my first post, please forgive me if I overlooked any kind of netiquette, in which case I'd appreciate to be briefed.

aslamo alikom bro..... as a muslim, i cant pick and choose whatever i like from the Quran.... i cant question about why God commanded us to fast or to do the 5 daily prayers why God do this why he didnt do that.... God is all-knowing, hes choice always the best... and being a muslim means you must love God and the prophet from anything else including yourself family everything on earth... and their decision must be accepted i cant reject fasting becuase i dont like it. likewise hell and heaven are part of the Quran, if you reject some part of it as you mentioned you are not muslim because you denying some. so if you want to be a true muslim your love for God must be primary.

about hell and heaven, there are exsiting for a reason and God knows best.. but i cant understand if you dont believe in such things whats the piont believing in Islam anyway? do whatever you want evil or good evenually we gonna die and finish no reward no punishment thats make to you sense?... so whats your point? if you think justice is the right thing as most people, the murder believes kiling people is good for him... so you wasting your time doing justice even in hard times, the murder killing everybody and at the end both are same gonna become a meat for worms.

i have a question imagine some crazy guy killing your mother, father all your brothers and sisters... after years he dies in natural death of aging.. what you prefer to be justice (as you mentioned here) to believe in hell that will punish him for his deeds or no hell? what you mean by justice anyway justice only on this world or you want justice for the hereafter? if you dont believe in hell because its discusting, Hitler for this account 60 million people died so he got free right? what justice is this its not justice its emotional arguments you complaining about, islam based on rational thinking. peace.
Never fart near dog
Demetriuscapone
Posts: 152
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10/10/2014 5:02:38 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
Ask yourself this:

Has there even been a question in life where science used to have the right answer, which Islam then provided a better answer for? If no and you still feel the need to apply divine answers to certain questions, then deism is for you.

If you feel the other way: that a god has to be personal and involved in our business ( despite the lacking evidence ) and that god isn't enough as an uncaused caused, Islam is for you. I would however suggest you think in these terms:

Do I ever have to believe something on insufficient evidence? That will nullify god from your thinking completely.
ArKhani
Posts: 7
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10/10/2014 5:02:38 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
First off, I am absolutely delighted by you guys' honest and kind responses; I can't say I'm used to that behaviour from other forums, unfortunately including the 'islamic' ones that I consulted.

aslamo alikom bro

wa alaykum as salam

..... as a muslim, i cant pick and choose whatever i like from the Quran.... i cant question about why God commanded us to fast or to do the 5 daily prayers why God do this why he didnt do that.... God is all-knowing, hes choice always the best:
Well, ironically, the commandments(fasting, five daily namaz) you mentioned were the things that made me sympathize and convert/revert to Islam in the first place.
I find it very important however to question everything I encounter, I believe that this is what eventually connvinced me of the rationality behind Islam.
Also muslims are bid to ponder about the meaning of Quran, which in my opinion clearly includes questioning?

... and being a muslim means you must love God and the prophet from anything else including yourself family everything on earth... and their decision must be accepted i cant reject fasting becuase i dont like it. likewise hell and heaven are part of the Quran, if you reject some part of it as you mentioned you are not muslim because you denying some. so if you want to be a true muslim your love for God must be primary.


But how can someone who (re-)discovered islam through research and thought, who yet struggles to believe, base his religiousness on the love of Allah?
I understand that the love of God is the foundation of faith in Islam,Christianity, etc., which is btw a great concept in my opinion.
But since it was logic and reasoning that brought me there, I couldn't keep up the faith for the sole reason that I felt that it was limiting my ability to apply logic in certain topics - it is not my inability to grasp many of the complex concepts presented by Islam. I can easily accept that I am infinitely inferior to the knowledge and intelligence of the hypothetical islamic deity and prophet; as I said I even felt oddly estranged from the 'dizziness' that I felt after namaz.

about hell and heaven, there are exsiting for a reason and God knows best.. but i cant understand if you dont believe in such things whats the piont believing in Islam anyway? do whatever you want evil or good evenually we gonna die and finish no reward no punishment thats make to you sense?... so whats your point? if you think justice is the right thing as most people, the murder believes kiling people is good for him... so you wasting your time doing justice even in hard times, the murder killing everybody and at the end both are same gonna become a meat for worms.

i have a question imagine some crazy guy killing your mother, father all your brothers and sisters... after years he dies in natural death of aging.. what you prefer to be justice (as you mentioned here) to believe in hell that will punish him for his deeds or no hell? what you mean by justice anyway justice only on this world or you want justice for the hereafter? if you dont believe in hell because its discusting, Hitler for this account 60 million people died so he got free right? what justice is this its not justice its emotional arguments you complaining about, islam based on rational thinking. peace.


But now it seems to me like the sole purpose of belief in Hell and Heaven is simply to comfort people?
I can tell you why I want to devote myself to justice:
I simply have faith in humanity(even though not in the single human). I think that it is worth going through hard times, if ultimately it serves justice and that humanity will eventually leave behind its current chaotic and awful condition; I believe that as a species we have the natural drive to constantly optimize our circumstances, which includes abandoning our own mistakes.
I understand that to bear the sometimes incredible harship associated with being a servant of justice, a strong faith is necessary. And that in particular is the reason why I don't want to 'give up on' Islam as my religion of choice(I realize how naive that sounds). Namaz is one of the greatest means to strengthen faith.

The single strongest aspect that keeps me away from Islam is the majority of muslims.
Society is crucial part of the islamic way of life, however today most of the muslims(that I've seen so far in the middle-east) have reduced 'Islam' to the five pillars, at most. Hardly do I ever see the subtle but important traits that a muslim should have as temperance, honest diligence, modesty, control of emotions, respect towards women, gratitude, tolerance(!!!) towards non-believers, restraint from contentiousness and pugnacity. These seem so much more important to me, as I believe that these are the actual goals of Islam, whereas the five pillars to me seem like the means to an end.

I apologize for not answering to the others, I'm late for class :/
As Salamu Alaykum.
ArKhani
Posts: 7
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10/10/2014 8:41:06 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/10/2014 5:02:38 AM, Demetriuscapone wrote:
Ask yourself this:

Has there even been a question in life where science used to have the right answer, which Islam then provided a better answer for? If no and you still feel the need to apply divine answers to certain questions, then deism is for you.

If you feel the other way: that a god has to be personal and involved in our business ( despite the lacking evidence ) and that god isn't enough as an uncaused caused, Islam is for you. I would however suggest you think in these terms:

Do I ever have to believe something on insufficient evidence? That will nullify god from your thinking completely.

As Salamu Alaykum friend.

My preferred description for God is 'Essence of Reality'.
Trying to prove God is as trivial as trying to prove reality.

Belief/Submission to God(in case of Islam) is equivalent to submitting to the laws of this universe. It's about worshipping the unmatched force behind the common deterministic momentum of all existence.

Engineers depend on what Scientist discover - Scientists may only discover what was already there or, to add a mild provocation, they may only describe approaches to grasp the processes encountered in this universe.

It is to me like being a fish, that tries to abide by the flow of the ocean. Only that if we are the fish and the ocean is existence, we are infinitely small. Sorry if this sounds like esotheric crap.

As stated before, Islam seems to me like the most elaborate approach to 'harmonize with existence' as it is experienced by us humans.
As Salamu Alaykum.
Fatihah
Posts: 7,728
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10/10/2014 9:21:47 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/9/2014 5:15:38 PM, ArKhani wrote:
G'day friends.

A second generation Iranian expatriat here :)

After years of going from cultural/traditional/non-practising muslim over atheism to agnosticism and eventually embracing Islam as my religion a couple of months ago(after Ramadan) I finally gave in to my constant doubts that were plaguing me ever since saying the shahada for the first time.

I do not at all believe in the abrahamitic concept of Hell and Heaven, especially not since I read the incredibly detailed descriptions of it in Quran.

I simply do not believe that the one god needs to go the rather 'primitive' way of Operant Conditioning, of Reinforcement and Punishment. It just seems too simple and man-made to me.

I hate the dogmatism that is predominant in the Islamic world today.

I feel like the religion is perfect if everyone in a community abided by it, but then again isn't that valid for every ideology?

The Islamic way of life seems to me like the most elaborate and extensive approach to a rational and prolific life, free of fear and always with the devotion to sacrifice oneself for ultimate justice; the way of controlling ones nafs to acquire Taqwa and thus carving the way to receiving enlightenment to ultimately be able to distinguish just from injsut.

It all seems so perfect, but I just can't ignore the downside of yet another closed system of thought, which Islam certainly is.
Here's the reality:
The uncompromising character of Islam and the Quran don't allow any improvement of the situation, once things go all wrong(or at least so do I think).

Islam might have been perfect while the messenger(pbuh&hf) was there, but after his time was over and the kuffar revealed their true despicable faces(especially beginning with the Caliphate of Ali(as)), the course was set to what eventually lead to todays heartbreaking circumstances.

According to Islam I'm a kafir for denying the precise concepts(and the application) of afterlife as described in the Quran and for disagreeing with some of the boundaries set by it.

But I'm just beign honest. I felt so bad about this issue that at some point quit Salāt altogether because I couldn't stand the spiritual dizziness after each prayer, suddenly I was upset and disgusted with many of the customs of muslimic culture.

At the same time I'm very upset about all the different madhabs in Islam; when trying to find truth through research, what I find mostly is the members of the different madhabs cursing and arguing with each other, calling each others infidels and brainwashed.
My closest muslimic family members annoy and upset me as well with their politicisation of Islam, shifting their priorities.

Also I have the issue that sometimes I am amazed by the beauty of our messengers and his Sahabis lives and deeds, at other times I am disgusted by their apparent stubbornness and shortsightedness in some issues, ignoring how the vagueness of their sayings would lead to severe conflicts in their Ummah.

Seeing how I apparently went astray, I decided not to call myself muslim anymore, as I can't say I believe in the one deity as presented by the Quran.

However I generally still try to follow the Islamic teachings, as I 'believe' in controlling my desires, doing good deeds and ultimately devoting my life to justice.

I will keep saying Inshallah, Bismillah, Alhamdulillah and Subhan Allah ;)

What are your thoughts? Also this is my first post, please forgive me if I overlooked any kind of netiquette, in which case I'd appreciate to be briefed.

Response: Your questioning and feelings of doubt is no different than any other Muslim. For you are a person seeking truth and one who is open-minded to the truth will naturally have doubt. So you should not worry or stress that you have it as the teachings of Islam says that this occurs.

What I would encourage you to do is recognize and focus more on what you accept and like about Islam, and hold on tight. Doubt is natural. Yet it is not a reason to let go, unless you have clear sufficient evidence. I repeat, evidence. Many times, people reject religion because they do not like some aspect of it. If you do, then that contradict the fact that you accept it because it is true. That is the problem. People embrace Islam because of what they like and dislike. That is not Islam. Islam about accepting the truth. So do not let doubt or dislike of something lead you astray.

Last, Islam is based on logic and reason and true justice. Truth is based on the same. So when you come across something difficult to understand or doubtful, then to resolve the issue, you should simply do what is logical and just as the answer. If you use this approach, and continue to search for the answer at the same time, you will come to learn that there is a scholar or school of thought that agrees with or charity that agrees with the logic and justice you have discovered on your own, prior to seeking an answer. In other words, do not make the mistake of having doubt, then keeping that doubt until you find an answer. But rather, look in yourself for what you believe is just and logical first and follow it, then look to see if there is a scholar or hadith that agrees. UnequAlled if you use this method, you will not only have dinner peace and remove doubt, but learn that the answer is out there and Allah will guide you to it as long as your heart is pure and your mind remains opened.

And Allah knows best.
ArKhani
Posts: 7
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10/10/2014 9:34:38 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/10/2014 9:21:47 AM, Fatihah wrote:
Response: Your questioning and feelings of doubt is no different than any other Muslim. For you are a person seeking truth and one who is open-minded to the truth will naturally have doubt. So you should not worry or stress that you have it as the teachings of Islam says that this occurs.

What I would encourage you to do is recognize and focus more on what you accept and like about Islam, and hold on tight. Doubt is natural. Yet it is not a reason to let go, unless you have clear sufficient evidence. I repeat, evidence. Many times, people reject religion because they do not like some aspect of it. If you do, then that contradict the fact that you accept it because it is true. That is the problem. People embrace Islam because of what they like and dislike. That is not Islam. Islam about accepting the truth. So do not let doubt or dislike of something lead you astray.

Last, Islam is based on logic and reason and true justice. Truth is based on the same. So when you come across something difficult to understand or doubtful, then to resolve the issue, you should simply do what is logical and just as the answer. If you use this approach, and continue to search for the answer at the same time, you will come to learn that there is a scholar or school of thought that agrees with or charity that agrees with the logic and justice you have discovered on your own, prior to seeking an answer. In other words, do not make the mistake of having doubt, then keeping that doubt until you find an answer. But rather, look in yourself for what you believe is just and logical first and follow it, then look to see if there is a scholar or hadith that agrees. UnequAlled if you use this method, you will not only have dinner peace and remove doubt, but learn that the answer is out there and Allah will guide you to it as long as your heart is pure and your mind remains opened.

And Allah knows best.

InshaAllah, I'll try to find truth.
Thank you for the response!
As Salamu Alaykum.
Demetriuscapone
Posts: 152
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10/10/2014 12:34:34 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/10/2014 8:41:06 AM, ArKhani wrote:
At 10/10/2014 5:02:38 AM, Demetriuscapone wrote:
Ask yourself this:

Has there even been a question in life where science used to have the right answer, which Islam then provided a better answer for? If no and you still feel the need to apply divine answers to certain questions, then deism is for you.

If you feel the other way: that a god has to be personal and involved in our business ( despite the lacking evidence ) and that god isn't enough as an uncaused caused, Islam is for you. I would however suggest you think in these terms:

Do I ever have to believe something on insufficient evidence? That will nullify god from your thinking completely.

As Salamu Alaykum friend.

My preferred description for God is 'Essence of Reality'.
Trying to prove God is as trivial as trying to prove reality.

Okay, that is deism, essentially.

Belief/Submission to God(in case of Islam) is equivalent to submitting to the laws of this universe. It's about worshipping the unmatched force behind the common deterministic momentum of all existence.

Well, that would be true if the islamic god didn't take interest in human affairs and if there was no way for us to gain his favour. However, the islamic god is a personal god with a will who demands that we worship him. He's not merely the circumstances that we are in and even if he was: it makes no sense to worship reality, unless you expect your actions to actually affect reality for the better. And sacrificing goats and praying won't do anything for that.

Engineers depend on what Scientist discover - Scientists may only discover what was already there or, to add a mild provocation, they may only describe approaches to grasp the processes encountered in this universe.

There is actually, no limit to what science can do. Given that we are provided the right tools, we can know more or less everything.

It is to me like being a fish, that tries to abide by the flow of the ocean. Only that if we are the fish and the ocean is existence, we are infinitely small. Sorry if this sounds like esotheric crap.

No, it's actually well thought out and rather buddhistic.

As stated before, Islam seems to me like the most elaborate approach to 'harmonize with existence' as it is experienced by us humans.

Well, that's actually not true at all. Islam is just one out of many religions that happened to gain power through political discourse. It is no more impressive than any other religion and offer little clarity to deal with the circumstances we are in.
mortsdor
Posts: 1,181
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10/10/2014 1:08:58 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/10/2014 8:41:06 AM, ArKhani wrote:
As stated before, Islam seems to me like the most elaborate approach to 'harmonize with existence' as it is experienced by us humans.

You might like Daoism 8)

You might say it's goal is to accept the nature of existence, and thereby live in harmony with it.

if you're interested
Here's a translation of the Zhuangzi http://terebess.hu...

however I'd suggest getting Ivanhoe's translation, it was the first one I read, and still my favorite... However pretty sure you'd have to lay out some cash to get it :/

this is what I had read. http://www.amazon.com...
It's got passages from the zhuangzi (daoism), but it also has a bunch of other ideas, and organizes them all so you can see how they developed from/in response to one another

other than the zhuangzi passages, I'd have to say I identified with those from Mencius a bunch.
ArKhani
Posts: 7
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10/10/2014 4:25:27 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/10/2014 1:08:58 PM, mortsdor wrote:
At 10/10/2014 8:41:06 AM, ArKhani wrote:
As stated before, Islam seems to me like the most elaborate approach to 'harmonize with existence' as it is experienced by us humans.


You might like Daoism 8)

You might say it's goal is to accept the nature of existence, and thereby live in harmony with it.

if you're interested
Here's a translation of the Zhuangzi http://terebess.hu...



however I'd suggest getting Ivanhoe's translation, it was the first one I read, and still my favorite... However pretty sure you'd have to lay out some cash to get it :/

this is what I had read. http://www.amazon.com...
It's got passages from the zhuangzi (daoism), but it also has a bunch of other ideas, and organizes them all so you can see how they developed from/in response to one another

other than the zhuangzi passages, I'd have to say I identified with those from Mencius a bunch.

That's actually surprisingly helpful man, thank you very much :)

At 10/10/2014 12:34:34 PM, Demetriuscapone wrote:
Well, that's actually not true at all. Islam is just one out of many religions that happened to gain power through political discourse. It is no more impressive than any other religion and offer little clarity to deal with the circumstances we are in.
You might change your opinion after reading some of the great scholastic works by some of the early islamic savants...putting the emphasis on 'might'.

Thanks for the direction, I felt like my picture of god did not exactly merge with the islamic concept...

I should maybe stop trying to live up to the muslim standard of the country I live in.
It'll certainly do me good I guess.
As Salamu Alaykum.
mortsdor
Posts: 1,181
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10/10/2014 6:56:32 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/10/2014 1:08:58 PM, mortsdor wrote:
however I'd suggest getting Ivanhoe's translation, it was the first one I read, and still my favorite... However pretty sure you'd have to lay out some cash to get it :/

actually... google solves that problem
http://hermitmusic.tripod.com...

In my opinion it's a pretty awesome introduction to chinese philosophy, and despite having definite favorites, I'd say if someone were actually interested in reading it, it's a good read from front to back... as it's organized in chronological-ish order and the passages and commentary really let you see how the thoughts develop in response to each other.

I also think its interesting for one used to traditional western conceptions to see some of them mirrored in a different, independent, tradition.
bornofgod
Posts: 11,322
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10/10/2014 8:06:44 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/9/2014 5:15:38 PM, ArKhani wrote:
G'day friends.

A second generation Iranian expatriat here :)

After years of going from cultural/traditional/non-practising muslim over atheism to agnosticism and eventually embracing Islam as my religion a couple of months ago(after Ramadan) I finally gave in to my constant doubts that were plaguing me ever since saying the shahada for the first time.

I do not at all believe in the abrahamitic concept of Hell and Heaven, especially not since I read the incredibly detailed descriptions of it in Quran.

I simply do not believe that the one god needs to go the rather 'primitive' way of Operant Conditioning, of Reinforcement and Punishment. It just seems too simple and man-made to me.

I hate the dogmatism that is predominant in the Islamic world today.

I feel like the religion is perfect if everyone in a community abided by it, but then again isn't that valid for every ideology?

The Islamic way of life seems to me like the most elaborate and extensive approach to a rational and prolific life, free of fear and always with the devotion to sacrifice oneself for ultimate justice; the way of controlling ones nafs to acquire Taqwa and thus carving the way to receiving enlightenment to ultimately be able to distinguish just from injsut.

It all seems so perfect, but I just can't ignore the downside of yet another closed system of thought, which Islam certainly is.
Here's the reality:
The uncompromising character of Islam and the Quran don't allow any improvement of the situation, once things go all wrong(or at least so do I think).

Islam might have been perfect while the messenger(pbuh&hf) was there, but after his time was over and the kuffar revealed their true despicable faces(especially beginning with the Caliphate of Ali(as)), the course was set to what eventually lead to todays heartbreaking circumstances.

According to Islam I'm a kafir for denying the precise concepts(and the application) of afterlife as described in the Quran and for disagreeing with some of the boundaries set by it.

But I'm just beign honest. I felt so bad about this issue that at some point quit Salāt altogether because I couldn't stand the spiritual dizziness after each prayer, suddenly I was upset and disgusted with many of the customs of muslimic culture.

At the same time I'm very upset about all the different madhabs in Islam; when trying to find truth through research, what I find mostly is the members of the different madhabs cursing and arguing with each other, calling each others infidels and brainwashed.
My closest muslimic family members annoy and upset me as well with their politicisation of Islam, shifting their priorities.

Also I have the issue that sometimes I am amazed by the beauty of our messengers and his Sahabis lives and deeds, at other times I am disgusted by their apparent stubbornness and shortsightedness in some issues, ignoring how the vagueness of their sayings would lead to severe conflicts in their Ummah.

Seeing how I apparently went astray, I decided not to call myself muslim anymore, as I can't say I believe in the one deity as presented by the Quran.

However I generally still try to follow the Islamic teachings, as I 'believe' in controlling my desires, doing good deeds and ultimately devoting my life to justice.

I will keep saying Inshallah, Bismillah, Alhamdulillah and Subhan Allah ;)

What are your thoughts? Also this is my first post, please forgive me if I overlooked any kind of netiquette, in which case I'd appreciate to be briefed.

All religions came about because of God's plan called the beast. Religions, various languages, mathematics, law, government, etc. started when God had men look up into the stars and use imaginary lines to connect them. From these observations, they learned how to draw building shapes and characters for their languages and mathematics, etc. Eventually, God taught them how to put these various building shapes into plans to build their false gods. Now we have the modern day technology in place so that God can use them to teach us how He created us in His thoughts.
Demetriuscapone
Posts: 152
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10/12/2014 10:43:51 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/10/2014 4:25:27 PM, ArKhani wrote:

At 10/10/2014 12:34:34 PM, Demetriuscapone wrote:
Well, that's actually not true at all. Islam is just one out of many religions that happened to gain power through political discourse. It is no more impressive than any other religion and offer little clarity to deal with the circumstances we are in.
You might change your opinion after reading some of the great scholastic works by some of the early islamic savants...putting the emphasis on 'might'.

Thanks for the direction, I felt like my picture of god did not exactly merge with the islamic concept...

I should maybe stop trying to live up to the muslim standard of the country I live in.
It'll certainly do me good I guess.

Well in that case, I would say the sikhi or jain god actually fit you more thoroughly. I would suggest you look it up. Bless.