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Does omniscience contradict free will?

jh1234lnew
Posts: 225
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10/9/2014 8:43:31 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Does omniscience contradict free will?

Let's just say that there was a hypothetical wise man living in a ninja dojo who knew everything.

One day, the wise man is forced to make a decision: whether or not he should move to San Vancelona and leave the ninja dojo.

Because he knew everything, he decided within a split second. However, because he knew everything, he knew the answer beforehand ever since he was born. This means that the answer was already chosen, meaning that omniscience contradicted and prevented free will.
bornofgod
Posts: 11,322
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10/9/2014 9:34:35 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/9/2014 8:43:31 PM, jh1234lnew wrote:
Does omniscience contradict free will?

Let's just say that there was a hypothetical wise man living in a ninja dojo who knew everything.

One day, the wise man is forced to make a decision: whether or not he should move to San Vancelona and leave the ninja dojo.

Because he knew everything, he decided within a split second. However, because he knew everything, he knew the answer beforehand ever since he was born. This means that the answer was already chosen, meaning that omniscience contradicted and prevented free will.

We're all living according to God's plan called Eternal Life. He even planned what He wanted you to look at.
FaustianJustice
Posts: 6,224
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10/9/2014 10:23:23 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/9/2014 8:43:31 PM, jh1234lnew wrote:
Does omniscience contradict free will?

Let's just say that there was a hypothetical wise man living in a ninja dojo who knew everything.

One day, the wise man is forced to make a decision: whether or not he should move to San Vancelona and leave the ninja dojo.

Because he knew everything, he decided within a split second. However, because he knew everything, he knew the answer beforehand ever since he was born. This means that the answer was already chosen, meaning that omniscience contradicted and prevented free will.

I am not confident 'all knowing' specifically infers having foresight. Omiscient is defined as having total understanding, knowledge, or awareness. To me, this means there is nothing objective the entity would not know, and it would know the -ramifications- of a choice, it would know the benefits of each, and your odds of potentially choosing one choice or another, but not specifically what you would choose.
Here we have an advocate for Islamic arranged marriages demonstrating that children can consent to sex.
http://www.debate.org...
Beastt
Posts: 5,135
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10/10/2014 12:48:36 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/9/2014 10:23:23 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 10/9/2014 8:43:31 PM, jh1234lnew wrote:
Does omniscience contradict free will?

Let's just say that there was a hypothetical wise man living in a ninja dojo who knew everything.

One day, the wise man is forced to make a decision: whether or not he should move to San Vancelona and leave the ninja dojo.

Because he knew everything, he decided within a split second. However, because he knew everything, he knew the answer beforehand ever since he was born. This means that the answer was already chosen, meaning that omniscience contradicted and prevented free will.



I am not confident 'all knowing' specifically infers having foresight. Omiscient is defined as having total understanding, knowledge, or awareness. To me, this means there is nothing objective the entity would not know, and it would know the -ramifications- of a choice, it would know the benefits of each, and your odds of potentially choosing one choice or another, but not specifically what you would choose.

If speaking of the Christian God, the claim of accurate prophecy would certainly suggest that God knows the future, including that which he will not himself, do.
"If we believe absurdities we shall commit atrocities." -- Voltaire
FaustianJustice
Posts: 6,224
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10/10/2014 12:55:06 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/10/2014 12:48:36 AM, Beastt wrote:
At 10/9/2014 10:23:23 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 10/9/2014 8:43:31 PM, jh1234lnew wrote:
Does omniscience contradict free will?

Let's just say that there was a hypothetical wise man living in a ninja dojo who knew everything.

One day, the wise man is forced to make a decision: whether or not he should move to San Vancelona and leave the ninja dojo.

Because he knew everything, he decided within a split second. However, because he knew everything, he knew the answer beforehand ever since he was born. This means that the answer was already chosen, meaning that omniscience contradicted and prevented free will.



I am not confident 'all knowing' specifically infers having foresight. Omiscient is defined as having total understanding, knowledge, or awareness. To me, this means there is nothing objective the entity would not know, and it would know the -ramifications- of a choice, it would know the benefits of each, and your odds of potentially choosing one choice or another, but not specifically what you would choose.

If speaking of the Christian God, the claim of accurate prophecy would certainly suggest that God knows the future, including that which he will not himself, do.

Considering that particular deity's penchant for... well, odd stuff in general, were I It, I too would want to give that impression. ;) He sees you when your sleeping, he knows when you're awake... -hums the rest-
Here we have an advocate for Islamic arranged marriages demonstrating that children can consent to sex.
http://www.debate.org...
Beastt
Posts: 5,135
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10/10/2014 12:58:28 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/10/2014 12:55:06 AM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 10/10/2014 12:48:36 AM, Beastt wrote:
At 10/9/2014 10:23:23 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 10/9/2014 8:43:31 PM, jh1234lnew wrote:
Does omniscience contradict free will?

Let's just say that there was a hypothetical wise man living in a ninja dojo who knew everything.

One day, the wise man is forced to make a decision: whether or not he should move to San Vancelona and leave the ninja dojo.

Because he knew everything, he decided within a split second. However, because he knew everything, he knew the answer beforehand ever since he was born. This means that the answer was already chosen, meaning that omniscience contradicted and prevented free will.



I am not confident 'all knowing' specifically infers having foresight. Omiscient is defined as having total understanding, knowledge, or awareness. To me, this means there is nothing objective the entity would not know, and it would know the -ramifications- of a choice, it would know the benefits of each, and your odds of potentially choosing one choice or another, but not specifically what you would choose.

If speaking of the Christian God, the claim of accurate prophecy would certainly suggest that God knows the future, including that which he will not himself, do.

Considering that particular deity's penchant for... well, odd stuff in general, were I It, I too would want to give that impression. ;) He sees you when your sleeping, he knows when you're awake... -hums the rest-

And yet, somehow Christians just don't see it. It couldn't be more obvious if he had a red-setter named "Rudolph".
"If we believe absurdities we shall commit atrocities." -- Voltaire
FaustianJustice
Posts: 6,224
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10/10/2014 1:07:23 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/10/2014 12:58:28 AM, Beastt wrote:
At 10/10/2014 12:55:06 AM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 10/10/2014 12:48:36 AM, Beastt wrote:
At 10/9/2014 10:23:23 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 10/9/2014 8:43:31 PM, jh1234lnew wrote:
Does omniscience contradict free will?

Let's just say that there was a hypothetical wise man living in a ninja dojo who knew everything.

One day, the wise man is forced to make a decision: whether or not he should move to San Vancelona and leave the ninja dojo.

Because he knew everything, he decided within a split second. However, because he knew everything, he knew the answer beforehand ever since he was born. This means that the answer was already chosen, meaning that omniscience contradicted and prevented free will.



I am not confident 'all knowing' specifically infers having foresight. Omiscient is defined as having total understanding, knowledge, or awareness. To me, this means there is nothing objective the entity would not know, and it would know the -ramifications- of a choice, it would know the benefits of each, and your odds of potentially choosing one choice or another, but not specifically what you would choose.

If speaking of the Christian God, the claim of accurate prophecy would certainly suggest that God knows the future, including that which he will not himself, do.

Considering that particular deity's penchant for... well, odd stuff in general, were I It, I too would want to give that impression. ;) He sees you when your sleeping, he knows when you're awake... -hums the rest-

And yet, somehow Christians just don't see it. It couldn't be more obvious if he had a red-setter named "Rudolph".

Though, speaking out of the box, were I an entity of superior intellect, potency (technology if it suits), and expirience, and I were attempting to guide an inferior specie... what better way to do it?

For purposes, I am not stating such an entity is an omnicreator, just some variety of ... thing that possesed the ability to be Oz the Great and Powerful, and the foresight to recognize what happens to rational and thinking specie.
Here we have an advocate for Islamic arranged marriages demonstrating that children can consent to sex.
http://www.debate.org...
Beastt
Posts: 5,135
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10/10/2014 1:16:30 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/10/2014 1:07:23 AM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 10/10/2014 12:58:28 AM, Beastt wrote:
At 10/10/2014 12:55:06 AM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 10/10/2014 12:48:36 AM, Beastt wrote:
At 10/9/2014 10:23:23 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 10/9/2014 8:43:31 PM, jh1234lnew wrote:
Does omniscience contradict free will?

Let's just say that there was a hypothetical wise man living in a ninja dojo who knew everything.

One day, the wise man is forced to make a decision: whether or not he should move to San Vancelona and leave the ninja dojo.

Because he knew everything, he decided within a split second. However, because he knew everything, he knew the answer beforehand ever since he was born. This means that the answer was already chosen, meaning that omniscience contradicted and prevented free will.



I am not confident 'all knowing' specifically infers having foresight. Omiscient is defined as having total understanding, knowledge, or awareness. To me, this means there is nothing objective the entity would not know, and it would know the -ramifications- of a choice, it would know the benefits of each, and your odds of potentially choosing one choice or another, but not specifically what you would choose.

If speaking of the Christian God, the claim of accurate prophecy would certainly suggest that God knows the future, including that which he will not himself, do.

Considering that particular deity's penchant for... well, odd stuff in general, were I It, I too would want to give that impression. ;) He sees you when your sleeping, he knows when you're awake... -hums the rest-

And yet, somehow Christians just don't see it. It couldn't be more obvious if he had a red-setter named "Rudolph".

Though, speaking out of the box, were I an entity of superior intellect, potency (technology if it suits), and expirience, and I were attempting to guide an inferior specie... what better way to do it?

For purposes, I am not stating such an entity is an omnicreator, just some variety of ... thing that possesed the ability to be Oz the Great and Powerful, and the foresight to recognize what happens to rational and thinking specie.

Well, if you were omnipotent, just about any system would be better. How about showing yourself for starters, and not copying the age-old system of having men write things, and then claim you told them to?
"If we believe absurdities we shall commit atrocities." -- Voltaire
FaustianJustice
Posts: 6,224
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10/10/2014 1:22:57 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/10/2014 1:16:30 AM, Beastt wrote:
At 10/10/2014 1:07:23 AM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 10/10/2014 12:58:28 AM, Beastt wrote:
At 10/10/2014 12:55:06 AM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 10/10/2014 12:48:36 AM, Beastt wrote:
At 10/9/2014 10:23:23 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 10/9/2014 8:43:31 PM, jh1234lnew wrote:
Does omniscience contradict free will?

Let's just say that there was a hypothetical wise man living in a ninja dojo who knew everything.

One day, the wise man is forced to make a decision: whether or not he should move to San Vancelona and leave the ninja dojo.

Because he knew everything, he decided within a split second. However, because he knew everything, he knew the answer beforehand ever since he was born. This means that the answer was already chosen, meaning that omniscience contradicted and prevented free will.



I am not confident 'all knowing' specifically infers having foresight. Omiscient is defined as having total understanding, knowledge, or awareness. To me, this means there is nothing objective the entity would not know, and it would know the -ramifications- of a choice, it would know the benefits of each, and your odds of potentially choosing one choice or another, but not specifically what you would choose.

If speaking of the Christian God, the claim of accurate prophecy would certainly suggest that God knows the future, including that which he will not himself, do.

Considering that particular deity's penchant for... well, odd stuff in general, were I It, I too would want to give that impression. ;) He sees you when your sleeping, he knows when you're awake... -hums the rest-

And yet, somehow Christians just don't see it. It couldn't be more obvious if he had a red-setter named "Rudolph".

Though, speaking out of the box, were I an entity of superior intellect, potency (technology if it suits), and expirience, and I were attempting to guide an inferior specie... what better way to do it?

For purposes, I am not stating such an entity is an omnicreator, just some variety of ... thing that possesed the ability to be Oz the Great and Powerful, and the foresight to recognize what happens to rational and thinking specie.

Well, if you were omnipotent, just about any system would be better. How about showing yourself for starters, and not copying the age-old system of having men write things, and then claim you told them to?

Superior doesn't mean 'omni' in terms of potency.

Repitition is the quickest way to learning, so of course, they should keep copying, BUT should I keep hanging out with these subordinate creatures, they might in some way begin to think I am a deit... aw crap. Welp, time to go/watch from afar.

But, this all is more of a philosophical discussion rather than religious, considering God takes more the role of alien father figure.
Here we have an advocate for Islamic arranged marriages demonstrating that children can consent to sex.
http://www.debate.org...
Beastt
Posts: 5,135
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10/10/2014 3:35:58 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/10/2014 1:22:57 AM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 10/10/2014 1:16:30 AM, Beastt wrote:
At 10/10/2014 1:07:23 AM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 10/10/2014 12:58:28 AM, Beastt wrote:
At 10/10/2014 12:55:06 AM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 10/10/2014 12:48:36 AM, Beastt wrote:
At 10/9/2014 10:23:23 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 10/9/2014 8:43:31 PM, jh1234lnew wrote:
Does omniscience contradict free will?

Let's just say that there was a hypothetical wise man living in a ninja dojo who knew everything.

One day, the wise man is forced to make a decision: whether or not he should move to San Vancelona and leave the ninja dojo.

Because he knew everything, he decided within a split second. However, because he knew everything, he knew the answer beforehand ever since he was born. This means that the answer was already chosen, meaning that omniscience contradicted and prevented free will.



I am not confident 'all knowing' specifically infers having foresight. Omiscient is defined as having total understanding, knowledge, or awareness. To me, this means there is nothing objective the entity would not know, and it would know the -ramifications- of a choice, it would know the benefits of each, and your odds of potentially choosing one choice or another, but not specifically what you would choose.

If speaking of the Christian God, the claim of accurate prophecy would certainly suggest that God knows the future, including that which he will not himself, do.

Considering that particular deity's penchant for... well, odd stuff in general, were I It, I too would want to give that impression. ;) He sees you when your sleeping, he knows when you're awake... -hums the rest-

And yet, somehow Christians just don't see it. It couldn't be more obvious if he had a red-setter named "Rudolph".

Though, speaking out of the box, were I an entity of superior intellect, potency (technology if it suits), and expirience, and I were attempting to guide an inferior specie... what better way to do it?

For purposes, I am not stating such an entity is an omnicreator, just some variety of ... thing that possesed the ability to be Oz the Great and Powerful, and the foresight to recognize what happens to rational and thinking specie.

Well, if you were omnipotent, just about any system would be better. How about showing yourself for starters, and not copying the age-old system of having men write things, and then claim you told them to?

Superior doesn't mean 'omni' in terms of potency.

Repitition is the quickest way to learning, so of course, they should keep copying, BUT should I keep hanging out with these subordinate creatures, they might in some way begin to think I am a deit... aw crap. Welp, time to go/watch from afar.

But, this all is more of a philosophical discussion rather than religious, considering God takes more the role of alien father figure.

Then let's approach it from this angle. When you're passionate and serious about a message, do you show yourself and deliver the message yourself, or contact someone unknown to the recipient, tell them to write it down in their own hand-writing, and claim that it came from you?

As an example; would you propose to the woman of your dreams via a written message from a stranger, claiming it to be from you?
"If we believe absurdities we shall commit atrocities." -- Voltaire
FaustianJustice
Posts: 6,224
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10/10/2014 3:38:36 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/10/2014 3:35:58 AM, Beastt wrote:
At 10/10/2014 1:22:57 AM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 10/10/2014 1:16:30 AM, Beastt wrote:
At 10/10/2014 1:07:23 AM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 10/10/2014 12:58:28 AM, Beastt wrote:
At 10/10/2014 12:55:06 AM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 10/10/2014 12:48:36 AM, Beastt wrote:
At 10/9/2014 10:23:23 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 10/9/2014 8:43:31 PM, jh1234lnew wrote:
Does omniscience contradict free will?

Let's just say that there was a hypothetical wise man living in a ninja dojo who knew everything.

One day, the wise man is forced to make a decision: whether or not he should move to San Vancelona and leave the ninja dojo.

Because he knew everything, he decided within a split second. However, because he knew everything, he knew the answer beforehand ever since he was born. This means that the answer was already chosen, meaning that omniscience contradicted and prevented free will.



I am not confident 'all knowing' specifically infers having foresight. Omiscient is defined as having total understanding, knowledge, or awareness. To me, this means there is nothing objective the entity would not know, and it would know the -ramifications- of a choice, it would know the benefits of each, and your odds of potentially choosing one choice or another, but not specifically what you would choose.

If speaking of the Christian God, the claim of accurate prophecy would certainly suggest that God knows the future, including that which he will not himself, do.

Considering that particular deity's penchant for... well, odd stuff in general, were I It, I too would want to give that impression. ;) He sees you when your sleeping, he knows when you're awake... -hums the rest-

And yet, somehow Christians just don't see it. It couldn't be more obvious if he had a red-setter named "Rudolph".

Though, speaking out of the box, were I an entity of superior intellect, potency (technology if it suits), and expirience, and I were attempting to guide an inferior specie... what better way to do it?

For purposes, I am not stating such an entity is an omnicreator, just some variety of ... thing that possesed the ability to be Oz the Great and Powerful, and the foresight to recognize what happens to rational and thinking specie.

Well, if you were omnipotent, just about any system would be better. How about showing yourself for starters, and not copying the age-old system of having men write things, and then claim you told them to?

Superior doesn't mean 'omni' in terms of potency.

Repitition is the quickest way to learning, so of course, they should keep copying, BUT should I keep hanging out with these subordinate creatures, they might in some way begin to think I am a deit... aw crap. Welp, time to go/watch from afar.

But, this all is more of a philosophical discussion rather than religious, considering God takes more the role of alien father figure.

Then let's approach it from this angle. When you're passionate and serious about a message, do you show yourself and deliver the message yourself, or contact someone unknown to the recipient, tell them to write it down in their own hand-writing, and claim that it came from you?

As an example; would you propose to the woman of your dreams via a written message from a stranger, claiming it to be from you?

Great example! Marriage, probably not. But... I did that a lot in grade school. I was a bit shy as a kid. Does God as written sound like a child to you? Well.. at least one with the Universe as his credit card?
Here we have an advocate for Islamic arranged marriages demonstrating that children can consent to sex.
http://www.debate.org...
Beastt
Posts: 5,135
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10/10/2014 3:40:57 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/10/2014 3:38:36 AM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 10/10/2014 3:35:58 AM, Beastt wrote:

Repitition is the quickest way to learning, so of course, they should keep copying, BUT should I keep hanging out with these subordinate creatures, they might in some way begin to think I am a deit... aw crap. Welp, time to go/watch from afar.

But, this all is more of a philosophical discussion rather than religious, considering God takes more the role of alien father figure.

Then let's approach it from this angle. When you're passionate and serious about a message, do you show yourself and deliver the message yourself, or contact someone unknown to the recipient, tell them to write it down in their own hand-writing, and claim that it came from you?

As an example; would you propose to the woman of your dreams via a written message from a stranger, claiming it to be from you?


Great example! Marriage, probably not. But... I did that a lot in grade school. I was a bit shy as a kid. Does God as written sound like a child to you? Well.. at least one with the Universe as his credit card?

Yes... an emotional child with some very serious behavioral issues. Who but a child, believes that an insult should be rewarded with eternal torment?
"If we believe absurdities we shall commit atrocities." -- Voltaire
apb4y
Posts: 480
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10/10/2014 3:51:54 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/9/2014 8:43:31 PM, jh1234lnew wrote:
Does omniscience contradict free will?

Let's just say that there was a hypothetical wise man living in a ninja dojo who knew everything.

One day, the wise man is forced to make a decision: whether or not he should move to San Vancelona and leave the ninja dojo.

Because he knew everything, he decided within a split second. However, because he knew everything, he knew the answer beforehand ever since he was born. This means that the answer was already chosen, meaning that omniscience contradicted and prevented free will.

Your question assumes that the man's omniscience forced his hand. If the man already knows everything, then he already knows why he made those choices. Because memory recollection is an active process, and the man remembers what he knows from omniscience when confronted with a problem, he is in fact making choices. It's like playing a video game from the walkthrough instead of bumming around for an hour figuring out which door to open.
ethang5
Posts: 4,104
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10/10/2014 12:27:04 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/9/2014 8:43:31 PM, jh1234lnew wrote:
Does omniscience contradict free will?

Let's just say that there was a hypothetical wise man living in a ninja dojo who knew everything.

One day, the wise man is forced to make a decision: whether or not he should move to San Vancelona and leave the ninja dojo.

Because he knew everything, he decided within a split second.

However, because he knew everything, he knew the answer beforehand ever since he was born.

You are fine up to here. Next, you suddenly jump off the logic ship. Why?

This means that the answer was already chosen, meaning that omniscience contradicted and prevented free will.

Why was the answer chosen? Was it chosen freely?

Every time someone brings up this illogical clunker, they cannot say by what mechanism omniscience prevents free will. They make the claim, but cannot show how free will is violated by omniscience.

They also cannot say what is it which prompted the first decision. If I know I will decide to move from the dojo, I know so because I DID decide to move! That IS, in fact, free will!

jh1234lnew - But you can't now decide to not to move!

Why not? But if I decide now not to move, I would have already known that. After setting up omniscience, you can't later nullify omniscience to drum up a paradox.

The trick of this clunker is to use omniscience as a "time machine" to "go back" in time and "make" the decision so that the decision is than "locked" in the present. They then claim that the decision being "locked" is a violation of free will because it cannot be changed. But up till the time the decision was made, it could be changed. Exactly like every other decision. Every decision of the past is locked in the present.

It is a temporal trick that confounds the weak of mind. Oh, and the hopelessly biased.