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Christianity and marriage

Truth_seeker
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10/9/2014 11:10:29 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
I'd simply like to share some thoughts on marriage from studying the Scriptures. Marriage begins with Adam and Eve when Adam is created after the image of God and Eve after Adam. He was given the commandment from God to not eat of the tree of knowledge while the woman wasn't. Looking at the Old and New Testament, the man functions as the spiritual leader in the home. There is no legal marriage, simply paradise. Woman was made to be man's own companion in this life and both must become one in everything that they are in love.

Now in our society, it seems to be the custom that people simply date until they find "the right one", but it didn't work that way before for good reason. God himself arranged the marriage of Adam and Eve. Arranged marriages were common back then. There was a lot of family honor involved as well as protection. Families would hide their daughters away to protect them. Women would wear veils before actually uniting with their lovers. Family heritage and inheritance was also involved. Wisdom and love was focused on in the Scriptures rather than wild emotions and superficial things.

Women in the Bible are not seen as weak or helpless. In the Proverbs, the ideal woman is seen as strong, royal, pure, and wise. The ideal woman in Proverbs 31 is full of strength, dignity, honor, love, courageous, wise, doing her best in everything she does as a mom and wife especially in reverence to God. Notice that nowhere is her physical attractiveness mentioned. People need to stop listening to the lies of society that tell women they need to be pretty, give sex, have money, etc. to be accepted.

The benefits of courtship is that you have more experienced family members giving their input into the relationship. I see alot of things wrong with most relationships today. According to studies and observation, most relationships don't work because people discover that they never were in love to begin with. True love is eternal and it flourishes to it's highest peak.
bulproof
Posts: 25,295
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10/9/2014 11:16:49 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/9/2014 11:10:29 PM, Truth_seeker wrote:
I'd simply like to share some thoughts on marriage from studying the Scriptures. Marriage begins with Adam and Eve when Adam is created after the image of God and Eve after Adam. He was given the commandment from God to not eat of the tree of knowledge while the woman wasn't. Looking at the Old and New Testament, the man functions as the spiritual leader in the home. There is no legal marriage, simply paradise. Woman was made to be man's own companion in this life and both must become one in everything that they are in love.

Now in our society, it seems to be the custom that people simply date until they find "the right one", but it didn't work that way before for good reason. God himself arranged the marriage of Adam and Eve. Arranged marriages were common back then. There was a lot of family honor involved as well as protection. Families would hide their daughters away to protect them. Women would wear veils before actually uniting with their lovers. Family heritage and inheritance was also involved. Wisdom and love was focused on in the Scriptures rather than wild emotions and superficial things.

Women in the Bible are not seen as weak or helpless. In the Proverbs, the ideal woman is seen as strong, royal, pure, and wise. The ideal woman in Proverbs 31 is full of strength, dignity, honor, love, courageous, wise, doing her best in everything she does as a mom and wife especially in reverence to God. Notice that nowhere is her physical attractiveness mentioned. People need to stop listening to the lies of society that tell women they need to be pretty, give sex, have money, etc. to be accepted.

The benefits of courtship is that you have more experienced family members giving their input into the relationship. I see alot of things wrong with most relationships today. According to studies and observation, most relationships don't work because people discover that they never were in love to begin with. True love is eternal and it flourishes to it's highest peak.
Have you reached puberty yet?
FaustianJustice
Posts: 6,238
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10/9/2014 11:20:41 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/9/2014 11:10:29 PM, Truth_seeker wrote:
I'd simply like to share some thoughts on marriage from studying the Scriptures. Marriage begins with Adam and Eve when Adam is created after the image of God and Eve after Adam. He was given the commandment from God to not eat of the tree of knowledge while the woman wasn't. Looking at the Old and New Testament, the man functions as the spiritual leader in the home. There is no legal marriage, simply paradise. Woman was made to be man's own companion in this life and both must become one in everything that they are in love.

Now in our society, it seems to be the custom that people simply date until they find "the right one", but it didn't work that way before for good reason. God himself arranged the marriage of Adam and Eve. Arranged marriages were common back then. There was a lot of family honor involved as well as protection. Families would hide their daughters away to protect them. Women would wear veils before actually uniting with their lovers. Family heritage and inheritance was also involved. Wisdom and love was focused on in the Scriptures rather than wild emotions and superficial things.

Women in the Bible are not seen as weak or helpless. In the Proverbs, the ideal woman is seen as strong, royal, pure, and wise. The ideal woman in Proverbs 31 is full of strength, dignity, honor, love, courageous, wise, doing her best in everything she does as a mom and wife especially in reverence to God. Notice that nowhere is her physical attractiveness mentioned. People need to stop listening to the lies of society that tell women they need to be pretty, give sex, have money, etc. to be accepted.

The benefits of courtship is that you have more experienced family members giving their input into the relationship. I see alot of things wrong with most relationships today. According to studies and observation, most relationships don't work because people discover that they never were in love to begin with. True love is eternal and it flourishes to it's highest peak.

A few things: Eve knew what the tree was. She knew the rules. Looking at the old testament, faith and spirituality wasn't a big issue, the Man Upstairs was actually flexing His muscles, making it rain frogs, turning the Nile to Blood, striking altars with lightning, etc.

At the time of the reference of arranged marrigages, they very much were things other than love. Influence, power, ally, birthright, you name it. When you say things like 'focused on the scriptures', in those times -there were no scriptures-.

Regarding dating and marriages... what exactly are you stating? That true love should be arranged by the parents? Or that a pure, wise etc etc woman should be able to find her own man?
Here we have an advocate for Islamic arranged marriages demonstrating that children can consent to sex.
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POPOO5560
Posts: 2,489
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10/9/2014 11:49:21 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/9/2014 11:16:49 PM, bulproof wrote:
At 10/9/2014 11:10:29 PM, Truth_seeker wrote:
I'd simply like to share some thoughts on marriage from studying the Scriptures. Marriage begins with Adam and Eve when Adam is created after the image of God and Eve after Adam. He was given the commandment from God to not eat of the tree of knowledge while the woman wasn't. Looking at the Old and New Testament, the man functions as the spiritual leader in the home. There is no legal marriage, simply paradise. Woman was made to be man's own companion in this life and both must become one in everything that they are in love.

Now in our society, it seems to be the custom that people simply date until they find "the right one", but it didn't work that way before for good reason. God himself arranged the marriage of Adam and Eve. Arranged marriages were common back then. There was a lot of family honor involved as well as protection. Families would hide their daughters away to protect them. Women would wear veils before actually uniting with their lovers. Family heritage and inheritance was also involved. Wisdom and love was focused on in the Scriptures rather than wild emotions and superficial things.

Women in the Bible are not seen as weak or helpless. In the Proverbs, the ideal woman is seen as strong, royal, pure, and wise. The ideal woman in Proverbs 31 is full of strength, dignity, honor, love, courageous, wise, doing her best in everything she does as a mom and wife especially in reverence to God. Notice that nowhere is her physical attractiveness mentioned. People need to stop listening to the lies of society that tell women they need to be pretty, give sex, have money, etc. to be accepted.

The benefits of courtship is that you have more experienced family members giving their input into the relationship. I see alot of things wrong with most relationships today. According to studies and observation, most relationships don't work because people discover that they never were in love to begin with. True love is eternal and it flourishes to it's highest peak.
Have you reached puberty yet?

i reached it bulproof !!
Never fart near dog
Truth_seeker
Posts: 1,811
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10/10/2014 7:56:19 AM
Posted: 2 years ago


A few things: Eve knew what the tree was. She knew the rules. Looking at the old testament, faith and spirituality wasn't a big issue, the Man Upstairs was actually flexing His muscles, making it rain frogs, turning the Nile to Blood, striking altars with lightning, etc.
God is not a man.

At the time of the reference of arranged marrigages, they very much were things other than love. Influence, power, ally, birthright, you name it. When you say things like 'focused on the scriptures', in those times -there were no scriptures-.
You gave no reasoning why that is. I can argue that modern dating is the same and that it isn't supported by love, that's a huge generalization.
Regarding dating and marriages... what exactly are you stating? That true love should be arranged by the parents? Or that a pure, wise etc etc woman should be able to find her own man?

It could happen either way, but parents have a say on the matter.
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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10/10/2014 9:26:57 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/9/2014 11:10:29 PM, Truth_seeker wrote:
I'd simply like to share some thoughts on marriage from studying the Scriptures. Marriage begins with Adam and Eve when Adam is created after the image of God and Eve after Adam. He was given the commandment from God to not eat of the tree of knowledge while the woman wasn't. Looking at the Old and New Testament, the man functions as the spiritual leader in the home. There is no legal marriage, simply paradise. Woman was made to be man's own companion in this life and both must become one in everything that they are in love.


Yes, that is why Adam is blamed for what ensued. It was his responsibility to pass on God's instructions to Eve. The same is true in Christianity today when it is practiced as it should be

1 Corinthians 11:3
ASV(i) 3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.

Now in our society, it seems to be the custom that people simply date until they find "the right one", but it didn't work that way before for good reason. God himself arranged the marriage of Adam and Eve. Arranged marriages were common back then. There was a lot of family honor involved as well as protection. Families would hide their daughters away to protect them. Women would wear veils before actually uniting with their lovers. Family heritage and inheritance was also involved. Wisdom and love was focused on in the Scriptures rather than wild emotions and superficial things.


Most marriages in the days of the bible were arranged marriages or marriages of convenience. It was not necessary to be in love before the marriage. love was something which was to be learned after the wedding.

The same is still true today where successful arranged marriages are performed.

As you say, family was highly important and even as adults children took a great deal of notice of the wishes of the parents and put them before their own wishes.

It is a shame that it doesn't happen more now. However I am not sure how many parents would want, or be able to live up to, the responsibility for their children's happiness which that responsibility brings with it.

Women in the Bible are not seen as weak or helpless. In the Proverbs, the ideal woman is seen as strong, royal, pure, and wise. The ideal woman in Proverbs 31 is full of strength, dignity, honor, love, courageous, wise, doing her best in everything she does as a mom and wife especially in reverence to God. Notice that nowhere is her physical attractiveness mentioned. People need to stop listening to the lies of society that tell women they need to be pretty, give sex, have money, etc. to be accepted.


That is very true, and it is significant that the first person to whom Christ told details of his commission was in fact a Samaritan woman. despised by the Jews on two counts, being a Samaritan and being a woman.

Jesus always treated women with respect and when anyone tried to put them down he stuck up for them.

The benefits of courtship is that you have more experienced family members giving their input into the relationship. I see alot of things wrong with most relationships today. According to studies and observation, most relationships don't work because people discover that they never were in love to begin with. True love is eternal and it flourishes to it's highest peak.

Most relationships today are based more on sexual attraction than on love or respect.

Also so many now are entered with at least half an eye on the exit route, not with the thought that it should be for life. Because they feel they can get out of it easily they don't put enough care and thought into the selection of a mate.

The scriptural principles for marriage are interesting if you go into them deeply.

The first is that husband and wife should become "one flesh" literally the wife is seen as the husbands "other half".

Also interesting is the fact that scripture tells us that the husband no longer owns his own body but his wife does, and likewise the wife does not own her own body but the husband does.

That of course is a rather long winded way of saying that everything should be by mutual agreement in sexual terms nothing should be asked, or done, which makes the other partner uncomfortable, neither does either party have the right to decide unilaterally that nothing is going to happen. between them

Also the only scriptural ground for divorce is adultery and re-marriage to the same person is discouraged.

A beaten wife is allowed to separate from her husband but not to divorce him, and the same is true for a beaten husband, however unless the otehr party has an adulterous relationship they are both still regarded as married and therefore any other relationship is adulterous.

All of the above mean that it is imperative, if you are to have a Christian marriage, to choose only someone you know well enough to know that they are not violent or irresponsible.

That is the true Christian standard for marriage. If anyone wants to see the relevant scriptures feel free to ask.

One thing God hates is an oath-breaker, in any context.
bulproof
Posts: 25,295
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10/10/2014 9:32:05 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/9/2014 11:49:21 PM, POPOO5560 wrote:
At 10/9/2014 11:16:49 PM, bulproof wrote:
At 10/9/2014 11:10:29 PM, Truth_seeker wrote:
I'd simply like to share some thoughts on marriage from studying the Scriptures. Marriage begins with Adam and Eve when Adam is created after the image of God and Eve after Adam. He was given the commandment from God to not eat of the tree of knowledge while the woman wasn't. Looking at the Old and New Testament, the man functions as the spiritual leader in the home. There is no legal marriage, simply paradise. Woman was made to be man's own companion in this life and both must become one in everything that they are in love.

Now in our society, it seems to be the custom that people simply date until they find "the right one", but it didn't work that way before for good reason. God himself arranged the marriage of Adam and Eve. Arranged marriages were common back then. There was a lot of family honor involved as well as protection. Families would hide their daughters away to protect them. Women would wear veils before actually uniting with their lovers. Family heritage and inheritance was also involved. Wisdom and love was focused on in the Scriptures rather than wild emotions and superficial things.

Women in the Bible are not seen as weak or helpless. In the Proverbs, the ideal woman is seen as strong, royal, pure, and wise. The ideal woman in Proverbs 31 is full of strength, dignity, honor, love, courageous, wise, doing her best in everything she does as a mom and wife especially in reverence to God. Notice that nowhere is her physical attractiveness mentioned. People need to stop listening to the lies of society that tell women they need to be pretty, give sex, have money, etc. to be accepted.

The benefits of courtship is that you have more experienced family members giving their input into the relationship. I see alot of things wrong with most relationships today. According to studies and observation, most relationships don't work because people discover that they never were in love to begin with. True love is eternal and it flourishes to it's highest peak.
Have you reached puberty yet?

i reached it bulproof !!

Good for you poo!! Huzzah
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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10/10/2014 9:35:41 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/9/2014 11:20:41 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:



A few things: Eve knew what the tree was. She knew the rules. Looking at the old testament, faith and spirituality wasn't a big issue, the Man Upstairs was actually flexing His muscles, making it rain frogs, turning the Nile to Blood, striking altars with lightning, etc.

In fact the exact opposite is true, look at the case of Abraham for a start.

Spirituality in it's true sense, and faith were paramount and there are so many examples where God's servants are encouraged to display faith and courage.

Yes Even knew what God had said, but evidently Adam had not impressed on her the seriousness of that command, and she was not able to stand up to Satan's lies. It was his job to strengthen his wife and apparently he had failed in that Job.

Even worse when it went wrong he did not turn to God for help sorting it out, but instead sided with his wife. To that one big error we owe all the problems of the world ever since.


At the time of the reference of arranged marriages, they very much were things other than love. Influence, power, ally, birthright, you name it. When you say things like 'focused on the scriptures', in those times -there were no scriptures-.

Regarding dating and marriages... what exactly are you stating? That true love should be arranged by the parents? Or that a pure, wise etc etc woman should be able to find her own man?

Love was something which it was assumed that a couple would cultivate once married, and most did just that.

Many people say you cannot choose who you love, but that is very wrong. You cannot choose who you are sexually attracted to, but there is no connection between that and love, which is why so many modern marriages fail. Love is, and should be, dependent not on attraction but on the blending of two personalities. Therefore it is true to say that if the willingness to do so is there, anyone can learn to love anyone else.
bulproof
Posts: 25,295
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10/10/2014 9:36:15 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/10/2014 9:26:57 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 10/9/2014 11:10:29 PM, Truth_seeker wrote:
I'd simply like to share some thoughts on marriage from studying the Scriptures. Marriage begins with Adam and Eve when Adam is created after the image of God and Eve after Adam. He was given the commandment from God to not eat of the tree of knowledge while the woman wasn't. Looking at the Old and New Testament, the man functions as the spiritual leader in the home. There is no legal marriage, simply paradise. Woman was made to be man's own companion in this life and both must become one in everything that they are in love.


Yes, that is why Adam is blamed for what ensued. It was his responsibility to pass on God's instructions to Eve. The same is true in Christianity today when it is practiced as it should be

1 Corinthians 11:3
ASV(i) 3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.

Now in our society, it seems to be the custom that people simply date until they find "the right one", but it didn't work that way before for good reason. God himself arranged the marriage of Adam and Eve. Arranged marriages were common back then. There was a lot of family honor involved as well as protection. Families would hide their daughters away to protect them. Women would wear veils before actually uniting with their lovers. Family heritage and inheritance was also involved. Wisdom and love was focused on in the Scriptures rather than wild emotions and superficial things.


Most marriages in the days of the bible were arranged marriages or marriages of convenience. It was not necessary to be in love before the marriage. love was something which was to be learned after the wedding.

The same is still true today where successful arranged marriages are performed.

As you say, family was highly important and even as adults children took a great deal of notice of the wishes of the parents and put them before their own wishes.

It is a shame that it doesn't happen more now. However I am not sure how many parents would want, or be able to live up to, the responsibility for their children's happiness which that responsibility brings with it.


Women in the Bible are not seen as weak or helpless. In the Proverbs, the ideal woman is seen as strong, royal, pure, and wise. The ideal woman in Proverbs 31 is full of strength, dignity, honor, love, courageous, wise, doing her best in everything she does as a mom and wife especially in reverence to God. Notice that nowhere is her physical attractiveness mentioned. People need to stop listening to the lies of society that tell women they need to be pretty, give sex, have money, etc. to be accepted.


That is very true, and it is significant that the first person to whom Christ told details of his commission was in fact a Samaritan woman. despised by the Jews on two counts, being a Samaritan and being a woman.

Jesus always treated women with respect and when anyone tried to put them down he stuck up for them.

The benefits of courtship is that you have more experienced family members giving their input into the relationship. I see alot of things wrong with most relationships today. According to studies and observation, most relationships don't work because people discover that they never were in love to begin with. True love is eternal and it flourishes to it's highest peak.

Most relationships today are based more on sexual attraction than on love or respect.

Also so many now are entered with at least half an eye on the exit route, not with the thought that it should be for life. Because they feel they can get out of it easily they don't put enough care and thought into the selection of a mate.

The scriptural principles for marriage are interesting if you go into them deeply.

The first is that husband and wife should become "one flesh" literally the wife is seen as the husbands "other half".

Also interesting is the fact that scripture tells us that the husband no longer owns his own body but his wife does, and likewise the wife does not own her own body but the husband does.

That of course is a rather long winded way of saying that everything should be by mutual agreement in sexual terms nothing should be asked, or done, which makes the other partner uncomfortable, neither does either party have the right to decide unilaterally that nothing is going to happen. between them

Also the only scriptural ground for divorce is adultery and re-marriage to the same person is discouraged.

A beaten wife is allowed to separate from her husband but not to divorce him, and the same is true for a beaten husband, however unless the otehr party has an adulterous relationship they are both still regarded as married and therefore any other relationship is adulterous.

All of the above mean that it is imperative, if you are to have a Christian marriage, to choose only someone you know well enough to know that they are not violent or irresponsible.

That is the true Christian standard for marriage. If anyone wants to see the relevant scriptures feel free to ask.

One thing God hates is an oath-breaker, in any context.

Madman, it's a story created by ignorant nomads and passed down and altered for thousands of years.
It is a fairytale created by imaginative yet ignorant savages.
And is believed now by the same.
Truth_seeker
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10/10/2014 12:26:20 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/10/2014 9:26:57 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:

Yes, that is why Adam is blamed for what ensued. It was his responsibility to pass on God's instructions to Eve. The same is true in Christianity today when it is practiced as it should be

1 Corinthians 11:3
ASV(i) 3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.

Very true, that's why it's so important to set a godly example in the house.

Most marriages in the days of the bible were arranged marriages or marriages of convenience. It was not necessary to be in love before the marriage. love was something which was to be learned after the wedding.

Very true. That's what newly wedded couples learned.
The same is still true today where successful arranged marriages are performed.

As you say, family was highly important and even as adults children took a great deal of notice of the wishes of the parents and put them before their own wishes.

It is a shame that it doesn't happen more now. However I am not sure how many parents would want, or be able to live up to, the responsibility for their children's happiness which that responsibility brings with it.

Very true.


That is very true, and it is significant that the first person to whom Christ told details of his commission was in fact a Samaritan woman. despised by the Jews on two counts, being a Samaritan and being a woman.

Very interesting.
Jesus always treated women with respect and when anyone tried to put them down he stuck up for them.

Indeed he did.

Most relationships today are based more on sexual attraction than on love or respect.

Very true and that's why they fail because eventually sexual attraction fades.
Also so many now are entered with at least half an eye on the exit route, not with the thought that it should be for life. Because they feel they can get out of it easily they don't put enough care and thought into the selection of a mate.

The scriptural principles for marriage are interesting if you go into them deeply.

The first is that husband and wife should become "one flesh" literally the wife is seen as the husbands "other half".

Also interesting is the fact that scripture tells us that the husband no longer owns his own body but his wife does, and likewise the wife does not own her own body but the husband does.

That of course is a rather long winded way of saying that everything should be by mutual agreement in sexual terms nothing should be asked, or done, which makes the other partner uncomfortable, neither does either party have the right to decide unilaterally that nothing is going to happen. between them

Also the only scriptural ground for divorce is adultery and re-marriage to the same person is discouraged.

A beaten wife is allowed to separate from her husband but not to divorce him, and the same is true for a beaten husband, however unless the otehr party has an adulterous relationship they are both still regarded as married and therefore any other relationship is adulterous.

All of the above mean that it is imperative, if you are to have a Christian marriage, to choose only someone you know well enough to know that they are not violent or irresponsible.

That is the true Christian standard for marriage. If anyone wants to see the relevant scriptures feel free to ask.

One thing God hates is an oath-breaker, in any context.

Very true. The Bible says "no man hate his own flesh but nourishes it." When a man and a woman bond together, it then becomes each of their responsibility to take care of each other. I do believe that in the cases of abuse, divorce is sometimes necessary. Adultery is also means for divorce. Marriage is such a sacred commitment that you cannot remarry the same person twice.
ChristianPunk
Posts: 1,710
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10/10/2014 2:42:29 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/9/2014 11:10:29 PM, Truth_seeker wrote:
I'd simply like to share some thoughts on marriage from studying the Scriptures. Marriage begins with Adam and Eve when Adam is created after the image of God and Eve after Adam. He was given the commandment from God to not eat of the tree of knowledge while the woman wasn't. Looking at the Old and New Testament, the man functions as the spiritual leader in the home. There is no legal marriage, simply paradise. Woman was made to be man's own companion in this life and both must become one in everything that they are in love.

Now in our society, it seems to be the custom that people simply date until they find "the right one", but it didn't work that way before for good reason. God himself arranged the marriage of Adam and Eve. Arranged marriages were common back then. There was a lot of family honor involved as well as protection. Families would hide their daughters away to protect them. Women would wear veils before actually uniting with their lovers. Family heritage and inheritance was also involved. Wisdom and love was focused on in the Scriptures rather than wild emotions and superficial things.

Women in the Bible are not seen as weak or helpless. In the Proverbs, the ideal woman is seen as strong, royal, pure, and wise. The ideal woman in Proverbs 31 is full of strength, dignity, honor, love, courageous, wise, doing her best in everything she does as a mom and wife especially in reverence to God. Notice that nowhere is her physical attractiveness mentioned. People need to stop listening to the lies of society that tell women they need to be pretty, give sex, have money, etc. to be accepted.

The benefits of courtship is that you have more experienced family members giving their input into the relationship. I see alot of things wrong with most relationships today. According to studies and observation, most relationships don't work because people discover that they never were in love to begin with. True love is eternal and it flourishes to it's highest peak.

Alright let me just set the record here because I think your just drawing a world of yours, then you pretend you've been living In it.

I am not going to discuss Adam and Eve since besides the bible, nothing else has been written about them. Sorry, i'm a Christian Evolutionist who believes that Adam and Eve, 6 day creation and Death through Sin are metaphors.

Women in the bible are ranked in this way. "Woman, Man, then God." Woman is told to obey Man and God, but the man is to have authority and dominate the woman. This was the beginning traditions. New Testament commands around the Apostle Paul times that men and women are equal and women should have some authority over men as well as men have authority over women. The Old Testament did degrade women. The father had legal right by God to sell his daughters into slavery.

And if a man sell his daughter to be a maidservant, she shall not go out as the menservants do.
Exodus 21:7

Now before you go and saying it's Old Testament stuff, your pretty much saying follow the new changed rules (New Testament) instead of the old traditions (Old Testament). Jesus told his disciples to eat the forbidden foods listed in Leviticus. So Jesus was not wanting people to follow the Old Testament. The ten Commandments are the only things that cross over.

Proverbs 31 can be nice, but you think none of us don't look for that when we date? Do you even know what people do on dates, or do you make assumptions and judge before hand. Every date I went on was non sexual and more fun, philosophical, etc. I tell people to wait. Sex is not what the dating is about. And not a lot of people focus on that. In fact, Christians are the ones who focus on sex being what marriage is about. It's why conservative and fundamentalist Christians frown upon gays because they can't have sex AND reproduce.

And your studies about people who weren't in love with that person to begin with. Why was that? Usually the culture i'm in, it's because of people like you. Parents say "you should go out with this guy, he's good for you". They obey, not because the person loves the guy, but because she was pressured into living a lie from her parents.

If somebody is going to love somebody, they need to decide for themselves. Not parents. God wants us to be free, so we will be free.
Truth_seeker
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10/10/2014 3:08:05 PM
Posted: 2 years ago

Alright let me just set the record here because I think your just drawing a world of yours, then you pretend you've been living In it.

I am not going to discuss Adam and Eve since besides the bible, nothing else has been written about them. Sorry, i'm a Christian Evolutionist who believes that Adam and Eve, 6 day creation and Death through Sin are metaphors.
I don't think that's the proper literary conclusion about it, but ok.
Women in the bible are ranked in this way. "Woman, Man, then God." Woman is told to obey Man and God, but the man is to have authority and dominate the woman. This was the beginning traditions. New Testament commands around the Apostle Paul times that men and women are equal and women should have some authority over men as well as men have authority over women. The Old Testament did degrade women. The father had legal right by God to sell his daughters into slavery.
Beginning traditions?

And if a man sell his daughter to be a maidservant, she shall not go out as the menservants do.
Exodus 21:7
This has nothing to do with marriage though..
Now before you go and saying it's Old Testament stuff, your pretty much saying follow the new changed rules (New Testament) instead of the old traditions (Old Testament). Jesus told his disciples to eat the forbidden foods listed in Leviticus. So Jesus was not wanting people to follow the Old Testament. The ten Commandments are the only things that cross over.
I'm not sure where that Scripture is in the New Testament.
Proverbs 31 can be nice, but you think none of us don't look for that when we date? Do you even know what people do on dates, or do you make assumptions and judge before hand. Every date I went on was non sexual and more fun, philosophical, etc. I tell people to wait. Sex is not what the dating is about. And not a lot of people focus on that. In fact, Christians are the ones who focus on sex being what marriage is about. It's why conservative and fundamentalist Christians frown upon gays because they can't have sex AND reproduce.
I'm not sure where you got that conclusion, but i will assume that your previous relationships didn't work out which isn't how a biblical relationship should work.
And your studies about people who weren't in love with that person to begin with. Why was that? Usually the culture i'm in, it's because of people like you. Parents say "you should go out with this guy, he's good for you". They obey, not because the person loves the guy, but because she was pressured into living a lie from her parents.
It's not fully logical to compare modern cases with ancient ones..
If somebody is going to love somebody, they need to decide for themselves. Not parents. God wants us to be free, so we will be free.

I never said they shouldn't, but ok..
ChristianPunk
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10/10/2014 3:33:11 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/10/2014 3:08:05 PM, Truth_seeker wrote:

Alright let me just set the record here because I think your just drawing a world of yours, then you pretend you've been living In it.

I am not going to discuss Adam and Eve since besides the bible, nothing else has been written about them. Sorry, i'm a Christian Evolutionist who believes that Adam and Eve, 6 day creation and Death through Sin are metaphors.
I don't think that's the proper literary conclusion about it, but ok.
Women in the bible are ranked in this way. "Woman, Man, then God." Woman is told to obey Man and God, but the man is to have authority and dominate the woman. This was the beginning traditions. New Testament commands around the Apostle Paul times that men and women are equal and women should have some authority over men as well as men have authority over women. The Old Testament did degrade women. The father had legal right by God to sell his daughters into slavery.
Beginning traditions?

And if a man sell his daughter to be a maidservant, she shall not go out as the menservants do.
Exodus 21:7
This has nothing to do with marriage though..
Now before you go and saying it's Old Testament stuff, your pretty much saying follow the new changed rules (New Testament) instead of the old traditions (Old Testament). Jesus told his disciples to eat the forbidden foods listed in Leviticus. So Jesus was not wanting people to follow the Old Testament. The ten Commandments are the only things that cross over.
I'm not sure where that Scripture is in the New Testament.
Proverbs 31 can be nice, but you think none of us don't look for that when we date? Do you even know what people do on dates, or do you make assumptions and judge before hand. Every date I went on was non sexual and more fun, philosophical, etc. I tell people to wait. Sex is not what the dating is about. And not a lot of people focus on that. In fact, Christians are the ones who focus on sex being what marriage is about. It's why conservative and fundamentalist Christians frown upon gays because they can't have sex AND reproduce.
I'm not sure where you got that conclusion, but i will assume that your previous relationships didn't work out which isn't how a biblical relationship should work.
And your studies about people who weren't in love with that person to begin with. Why was that? Usually the culture i'm in, it's because of people like you. Parents say "you should go out with this guy, he's good for you". They obey, not because the person loves the guy, but because she was pressured into living a lie from her parents.
It's not fully logical to compare modern cases with ancient ones..
If somebody is going to love somebody, they need to decide for themselves. Not parents. God wants us to be free, so we will be free.

I never said they shouldn't, but ok..

Duteronomy 22:28-29 If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found;
29 Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days.

Nowhere in the bible does the woman here have consent over anything in this law. If the man loves the woman after having sex with her, he must pay 50 shekels of silver to the father and the woman is automatically the wife. This gives a loop hole for rapists to marry their victims.

On the food part.

Acts 10:9-15

9 On the morrow, as they went on their journey, and drew nigh unto the city, Peter went up upon the housetop to pray about the sixth hour:

10 And he became very hungry, and would have eaten: but while they made ready, he fell into a trance,

11 And saw heaven opened, and a certain vessel descending upon him, as it had been a great sheet knit at the four corners, and let down to the earth:

12 Wherein were all manner of fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air.

13 And there came a voice to him, Rise, Peter; kill, and eat.

14 But Peter said, Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean.

15 And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common.

My relationships didn't work because of problems with life. My last girlfriend had broke up with me before killing herself due to stress at her home. Your not me so don't you dare assume anything about me. I can might as well assume your mom was a hillbilly who home schooled you with videos instead of textbooks, but I am most likely going to lie (which is a sin). Also, we shouldn't be perfect. If we are perfect, then we are not human. Everything on this earth makes mistakes. If you claim to never make mistakes, your are basically claiming to be a god which is idolatry.

1. Your comparing modern cases with ancient ones. Modern dating compared to old traditional customs from another country.
2. What I was saying was something that most likely happened back then.
Truth_seeker
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10/10/2014 3:53:43 PM
Posted: 2 years ago

Duteronomy 22:28-29 If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found;
29 Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days.

Nowhere in the bible does the woman here have consent over anything in this law. If the man loves the woman after having sex with her, he must pay 50 shekels of silver to the father and the woman is automatically the wife. This gives a loop hole for rapists to marry their victims.

1. This is a case addressing a particular situation if rape happens.
2. The Hebrew word for rape doesn't even appear in this verse
3. Living single back then meant enduring alot of hardships vs. being married, so for this passage to bond them together is punishment enough.
On the food part.

Acts 10:9-15

9 On the morrow, as they went on their journey, and drew nigh unto the city, Peter went up upon the housetop to pray about the sixth hour:

10 And he became very hungry, and would have eaten: but while they made ready, he fell into a trance,

11 And saw heaven opened, and a certain vessel descending upon him, as it had been a great sheet knit at the four corners, and let down to the earth:

12 Wherein were all manner of fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air.

13 And there came a voice to him, Rise, Peter; kill, and eat.

14 But Peter said, Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean.

15 And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common.
Jesus didn't tell his disciples this...
My relationships didn't work because of problems with life. My last girlfriend had broke up with me before killing herself due to stress at her home. Your not me so don't you dare assume anything about me. I can might as well assume your mom was a hillbilly who home schooled you with videos instead of textbooks, but I am most likely going to lie (which is a sin). Also, we shouldn't be perfect. If we are perfect, then we are not human. Everything on this earth makes mistakes. If you claim to never make mistakes, your are basically claiming to be a god which is idolatry.

1. Your comparing modern cases with ancient ones. Modern dating compared to old traditional customs from another country.
2. What I was saying was something that most likely happened back then.

Where's the evidence?
ChristianPunk
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10/10/2014 4:10:37 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/10/2014 3:53:43 PM, Truth_seeker wrote:

Duteronomy 22:28-29 If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found;
29 Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days.

Nowhere in the bible does the woman here have consent over anything in this law. If the man loves the woman after having sex with her, he must pay 50 shekels of silver to the father and the woman is automatically the wife. This gives a loop hole for rapists to marry their victims.

1. This is a case addressing a particular situation if rape happens.
2. The Hebrew word for rape doesn't even appear in this verse
3. Living single back then meant enduring alot of hardships vs. being married, so for this passage to bond them together is punishment enough.
On the food part.

Acts 10:9-15

9 On the morrow, as they went on their journey, and drew nigh unto the city, Peter went up upon the housetop to pray about the sixth hour:

10 And he became very hungry, and would have eaten: but while they made ready, he fell into a trance,

11 And saw heaven opened, and a certain vessel descending upon him, as it had been a great sheet knit at the four corners, and let down to the earth:

12 Wherein were all manner of fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air.

13 And there came a voice to him, Rise, Peter; kill, and eat.

14 But Peter said, Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean.

15 And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common.
Jesus didn't tell his disciples this...
My relationships didn't work because of problems with life. My last girlfriend had broke up with me before killing herself due to stress at her home. Your not me so don't you dare assume anything about me. I can might as well assume your mom was a hillbilly who home schooled you with videos instead of textbooks, but I am most likely going to lie (which is a sin). Also, we shouldn't be perfect. If we are perfect, then we are not human. Everything on this earth makes mistakes. If you claim to never make mistakes, your are basically claiming to be a god which is idolatry.

1. Your comparing modern cases with ancient ones. Modern dating compared to old traditional customs from another country.
2. What I was saying was something that most likely happened back then.

Where's the evidence?

1. So your saying marriage/bonding is punishment?

2. Who is Peter?

3. My evidence is that I'm sure you can look at some people today and some people back then. There is always people who prefer the custom and people opposed. Look through history.
bornofgod
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10/10/2014 8:20:40 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/9/2014 11:10:29 PM, Truth_seeker wrote:
I'd simply like to share some thoughts on marriage from studying the Scriptures. Marriage begins with Adam and Eve when Adam is created after the image of God and Eve after Adam. He was given the commandment from God to not eat of the tree of knowledge while the woman wasn't. Looking at the Old and New Testament, the man functions as the spiritual leader in the home. There is no legal marriage, simply paradise. Woman was made to be man's own companion in this life and both must become one in everything that they are in love.

Now in our society, it seems to be the custom that people simply date until they find "the right one", but it didn't work that way before for good reason. God himself arranged the marriage of Adam and Eve. Arranged marriages were common back then. There was a lot of family honor involved as well as protection. Families would hide their daughters away to protect them. Women would wear veils before actually uniting with their lovers. Family heritage and inheritance was also involved. Wisdom and love was focused on in the Scriptures rather than wild emotions and superficial things.

Women in the Bible are not seen as weak or helpless. In the Proverbs, the ideal woman is seen as strong, royal, pure, and wise. The ideal woman in Proverbs 31 is full of strength, dignity, honor, love, courageous, wise, doing her best in everything she does as a mom and wife especially in reverence to God. Notice that nowhere is her physical attractiveness mentioned. People need to stop listening to the lies of society that tell women they need to be pretty, give sex, have money, etc. to be accepted.

The benefits of courtship is that you have more experienced family members giving their input into the relationship. I see alot of things wrong with most relationships today. According to studies and observation, most relationships don't work because people discover that they never were in love to begin with. True love is eternal and it flourishes to it's highest peak.

God created man male and female so in Paradise, man will wake up in two bodies of flesh. One will be male and the other female, just like God made Adam ( male body ) and Eve ( female body ) in this first age. However, in this age, the offspring of Adam and Eve only got ONE body to experience life in. This explains why some bodies can look like a male but they have sexual urges towards other males. It also explains why some female looking bodies have sexual urges towards other female bodies.

Human beings in this age don't know that there supposed to have a perfect mate to live with in Paradise after God destroys this world soon.
FaustianJustice
Posts: 6,238
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10/10/2014 11:58:27 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/10/2014 9:35:41 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 10/9/2014 11:20:41 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:



A few things: Eve knew what the tree was. She knew the rules. Looking at the old testament, faith and spirituality wasn't a big issue, the Man Upstairs was actually flexing His muscles, making it rain frogs, turning the Nile to Blood, striking altars with lightning, etc.

In fact the exact opposite is true, look at the case of Abraham for a start.

You mean the case where God flexed His muscles and literally caught Abraham's arm mid swing before he knifed his kid, right? And you mean the story of Abraham where God literally flexed His muscles by telling Abraham to first take his kid and knife him, right? If God the Almighty comes to you and tells you to do something, that is hardly 'faith'.

Spirituality in it's true sense, and faith were paramount and there are so many examples where God's servants are encouraged to display faith and courage.

Yes Even knew what God had said, but evidently Adam had not impressed on her the seriousness of that command, and she was not able to stand up to Satan's lies. It was his job to strengthen his wife and apparently he had failed in that Job.

And apparently God had not impressed upon Adam how serious such a command was, as Eve spit back to Satan what God said to Adam word for word, not to mention Eve was apparently confounded by a talking Snake, something that you think God might have mentioned, or that Eve might have asked Adam about regarding what he was calling things. "Adam, babe, how many other critters out here talked back?". Don't you find a certain irony to knowing a lie when you hear it as KNOWLEDGE of something GOOD or EVIL, when that is something neither of the two possesed?


Even worse when it went wrong he did not turn to God for help sorting it out, but instead sided with his wife. To that one big error we owe all the problems of the world ever since.

Because 1) he didn't know any better and 2) why would he suspect his wife of trying to screw him over? It was God's creation. For him. Evil was not known to him.


At the time of the reference of arranged marriages, they very much were things other than love. Influence, power, ally, birthright, you name it. When you say things like 'focused on the scriptures', in those times -there were no scriptures-.

Regarding dating and marriages... what exactly are you stating? That true love should be arranged by the parents? Or that a pure, wise etc etc woman should be able to find her own man?

Love was something which it was assumed that a couple would cultivate once married, and most did just that.

Mm, arranged love and marriage, what a great foundation. Beats the tar out of shared interests, mutual respect, known history. 'Learned to love' is what you are claiming.

Many people say you cannot choose who you love, but that is very wrong. You cannot choose who you are sexually attracted to, but there is no connection between that and love, which is why so many modern marriages fail. Love is, and should be, dependent not on attraction but on the blending of two personalities. Therefore it is true to say that if the willingness to do so is there, anyone can learn to love anyone else.
Here we have an advocate for Islamic arranged marriages demonstrating that children can consent to sex.
http://www.debate.org...
Truth_seeker
Posts: 1,811
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10/11/2014 9:39:40 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/10/2014 4:10:37 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
At 10/10/2014 3:53:43 PM, Truth_seeker wrote:

Duteronomy 22:28-29 If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found;
29 Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days.

Nowhere in the bible does the woman here have consent over anything in this law. If the man loves the woman after having sex with her, he must pay 50 shekels of silver to the father and the woman is automatically the wife. This gives a loop hole for rapists to marry their victims.

1. This is a case addressing a particular situation if rape happens.
2. The Hebrew word for rape doesn't even appear in this verse
3. Living single back then meant enduring alot of hardships vs. being married, so for this passage to bond them together is punishment enough.
On the food part.

Acts 10:9-15

9 On the morrow, as they went on their journey, and drew nigh unto the city, Peter went up upon the housetop to pray about the sixth hour:

10 And he became very hungry, and would have eaten: but while they made ready, he fell into a trance,

11 And saw heaven opened, and a certain vessel descending upon him, as it had been a great sheet knit at the four corners, and let down to the earth:

12 Wherein were all manner of fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air.

13 And there came a voice to him, Rise, Peter; kill, and eat.

14 But Peter said, Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean.

15 And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common.
Jesus didn't tell his disciples this...
My relationships didn't work because of problems with life. My last girlfriend had broke up with me before killing herself due to stress at her home. Your not me so don't you dare assume anything about me. I can might as well assume your mom was a hillbilly who home schooled you with videos instead of textbooks, but I am most likely going to lie (which is a sin). Also, we shouldn't be perfect. If we are perfect, then we are not human. Everything on this earth makes mistakes. If you claim to never make mistakes, your are basically claiming to be a god which is idolatry.

1. Your comparing modern cases with ancient ones. Modern dating compared to old traditional customs from another country.
2. What I was saying was something that most likely happened back then.

Where's the evidence?

1. So your saying marriage/bonding is punishment?

2. Who is Peter?

3. My evidence is that I'm sure you can look at some people today and some people back then. There is always people who prefer the custom and people opposed. Look through history.

1. In that world, yes because you were forced to provide for the needs of your wife.

2. Your original claim was "Jesus told his disciples."

3. That's not evidence, that's guesswork. Furthermore it doesn't make modern dating any better than ancient betrothals.
Truth_seeker
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10/11/2014 9:45:48 AM
Posted: 2 years ago

You mean the case where God flexed His muscles and literally caught Abraham's arm mid swing before he knifed his kid, right? And you mean the story of Abraham where God literally flexed His muscles by telling Abraham to first take his kid and knife him, right? If God the Almighty comes to you and tells you to do something, that is hardly 'faith'.
God doesn't have any muscles and it does take faith to obey something that you see no possible way or purpose in doing so.

And apparently God had not impressed upon Adam how serious such a command was, as Eve spit back to Satan what God said to Adam word for word, not to mention Eve was apparently confounded by a talking Snake, something that you think God might have mentioned, or that Eve might have asked Adam about regarding what he was calling things. "Adam, babe, how many other critters out here talked back?". Don't you find a certain irony to knowing a lie when you hear it as KNOWLEDGE of something GOOD or EVIL, when that is something neither of the two possesed?
It's not ironic because they did not posses the knowledge of good and evil and knowing a lie is different from that. Either way, Adam knew the commandment.

Even worse when it went wrong he did not turn to God for help sorting it out, but instead sided with his wife. To that one big error we owe all the problems of the world ever since.
Actually the concept of original sin is not biblical. We make our own choices.

Love was something which it was assumed that a couple would cultivate once married, and most did just that.

Mm, arranged love and marriage, what a great foundation. Beats the tar out of shared interests, mutual respect, known history. 'Learned to love' is what you are claiming.

Many people say you cannot choose who you love, but that is very wrong. You cannot choose who you are sexually attracted to, but there is no connection between that and love, which is why so many modern marriages fail. Love is, and should be, dependent not on attraction but on the blending of two personalities. Therefore it is true to say that if the willingness to do so is there, anyone can learn to love anyone else.

Actually psychologists have found that arranged marriages can work.
FaustianJustice
Posts: 6,238
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10/11/2014 9:57:09 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/11/2014 9:45:48 AM, Truth_seeker wrote:

You mean the case where God flexed His muscles and literally caught Abraham's arm mid swing before he knifed his kid, right? And you mean the story of Abraham where God literally flexed His muscles by telling Abraham to first take his kid and knife him, right? If God the Almighty comes to you and tells you to do something, that is hardly 'faith'.
God doesn't have any muscles and it does take faith to obey something that you see no possible way or purpose in doing so.

There are two places in which you reply to not me, so I am gonna answer this one. 'Flexing His muscles' is a colloquial term for doing stuff with what power you have. Clearly, Abraham heard God specifically say grab your kid and knife him. Clearly, God stopped him. Faith is no longer an issue for Abraham, he KNOWS God exists. Way or purpose is irrelevant in the face of such CLEAR evidence of a creator for Abraham, now.

And apparently God had not impressed upon Adam how serious such a command was, as Eve spit back to Satan what God said to Adam word for word, not to mention Eve was apparently confounded by a talking Snake, something that you think God might have mentioned, or that Eve might have asked Adam about regarding what he was calling things. "Adam, babe, how many other critters out here talked back?". Don't you find a certain irony to knowing a lie when you hear it as KNOWLEDGE of something GOOD or EVIL, when that is something neither of the two possesed?
It's not ironic because they did not posses the knowledge of good and evil and knowing a lie is different from that. Either way, Adam knew the commandment.

Um, no, its not. They don't understand the concept of Evil or deception. They don't know what those terms are, or that some one could have the capacity to lie. The Tree is literally titled the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. If Adam or Eve had the capacity to know what those terms were, the tree would be wholly irrelevant as they would know when some one is trying to deceive them. It doesn't matter WHAT Adam knew if he doesn't know what a Lie or deceit is.


Even worse when it went wrong he did not turn to God for help sorting it out, but instead sided with his wife. To that one big error we owe all the problems of the world ever since.
Actually the concept of original sin is not biblical. We make our own choices.

Love was something which it was assumed that a couple would cultivate once married, and most did just that.

Mm, arranged love and marriage, what a great foundation. Beats the tar out of shared interests, mutual respect, known history. 'Learned to love' is what you are claiming.

Many people say you cannot choose who you love, but that is very wrong. You cannot choose who you are sexually attracted to, but there is no connection between that and love, which is why so many modern marriages fail. Love is, and should be, dependent not on attraction but on the blending of two personalities. Therefore it is true to say that if the willingness to do so is there, anyone can learn to love anyone else.

Actually psychologists have found that arranged marriages can work.

Can is the operative word. Many psychologists and and people engaging in non arranged marriages have found out those can work, too, without the hassle of being traded like a baseball card.
Here we have an advocate for Islamic arranged marriages demonstrating that children can consent to sex.
http://www.debate.org...
Truth_seeker
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10/11/2014 10:07:07 AM
Posted: 2 years ago

There are two places in which you reply to not me, so I am gonna answer this one. 'Flexing His muscles' is a colloquial term for doing stuff with what power you have. Clearly, Abraham heard God specifically say grab your kid and knife him. Clearly, God stopped him. Faith is no longer an issue for Abraham, he KNOWS God exists. Way or purpose is irrelevant in the face of such CLEAR evidence of a creator for Abraham, now.
Faith in the Hebrew mind isn't about strictly knowing God exists, it's doing his will.
And apparently God had not impressed upon Adam how serious such a command was, as Eve spit back to Satan what God said to Adam word for word, not to mention Eve was apparently confounded by a talking Snake, something that you think God might have mentioned, or that Eve might have asked Adam about regarding what he was calling things. "Adam, babe, how many other critters out here talked back?". Don't you find a certain irony to knowing a lie when you hear it as KNOWLEDGE of something GOOD or EVIL, when that is something neither of the two possesed?
It's not ironic because they did not posses the knowledge of good and evil and knowing a lie is different from that. Either way, Adam knew the commandment.

Um, no, its not. They don't understand the concept of Evil or deception. They don't know what those terms are, or that some one could have the capacity to lie. The Tree is literally titled the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. If Adam or Eve had the capacity to know what those terms were, the tree would be wholly irrelevant as they would know when some one is trying to deceive them. It doesn't matter WHAT Adam knew if he doesn't know what a Lie or deceit is.

He knew what the commandment was, therefore he was not justified in his action of disobedience.

Even worse when it went wrong he did not turn to God for help sorting it out, but instead sided with his wife. To that one big error we owe all the problems of the world ever since.
Actually the concept of original sin is not biblical. We make our own choices.

Love was something which it was assumed that a couple would cultivate once married, and most did just that.

Mm, arranged love and marriage, what a great foundation. Beats the tar out of shared interests, mutual respect, known history. 'Learned to love' is what you are claiming.

Many people say you cannot choose who you love, but that is very wrong. You cannot choose who you are sexually attracted to, but there is no connection between that and love, which is why so many modern marriages fail. Love is, and should be, dependent not on attraction but on the blending of two personalities. Therefore it is true to say that if the willingness to do so is there, anyone can learn to love anyone else.

Actually psychologists have found that arranged marriages can work.

Can is the operative word. Many psychologists and and people engaging in non arranged marriages have found out those can work, too, without the hassle of being traded like a baseball card.

So there's no reason to condemn arranged marriages.
FaustianJustice
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10/11/2014 10:12:36 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/11/2014 10:07:07 AM, Truth_seeker wrote:

There are two places in which you reply to not me, so I am gonna answer this one. 'Flexing His muscles' is a colloquial term for doing stuff with what power you have. Clearly, Abraham heard God specifically say grab your kid and knife him. Clearly, God stopped him. Faith is no longer an issue for Abraham, he KNOWS God exists. Way or purpose is irrelevant in the face of such CLEAR evidence of a creator for Abraham, now.
Faith in the Hebrew mind isn't about strictly knowing God exists, it's doing his will.

Which for Abraham came as some rather clear cut instructions in a manner which most people call an edict. God. Flexing his muscles.

And apparently God had not impressed upon Adam how serious such a command was, as Eve spit back to Satan what God said to Adam word for word, not to mention Eve was apparently confounded by a talking Snake, something that you think God might have mentioned, or that Eve might have asked Adam about regarding what he was calling things. "Adam, babe, how many other critters out here talked back?". Don't you find a certain irony to knowing a lie when you hear it as KNOWLEDGE of something GOOD or EVIL, when that is something neither of the two possesed?
It's not ironic because they did not posses the knowledge of good and evil and knowing a lie is different from that. Either way, Adam knew the commandment.

In what way is deceit and trickery not inherently skewing the proverbial evil side of the moral-o-meter?

Um, no, its not. They don't understand the concept of Evil or deception. They don't know what those terms are, or that some one could have the capacity to lie. The Tree is literally titled the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. If Adam or Eve had the capacity to know what those terms were, the tree would be wholly irrelevant as they would know when some one is trying to deceive them. It doesn't matter WHAT Adam knew if he doesn't know what a Lie or deceit is.

He knew what the commandment was, therefore he was not justified in his action of disobedience.

Even worse when it went wrong he did not turn to God for help sorting it out, but instead sided with his wife. To that one big error we owe all the problems of the world ever since.
Actually the concept of original sin is not biblical. We make our own choices.

Love was something which it was assumed that a couple would cultivate once married, and most did just that.

Mm, arranged love and marriage, what a great foundation. Beats the tar out of shared interests, mutual respect, known history. 'Learned to love' is what you are claiming.

Many people say you cannot choose who you love, but that is very wrong. You cannot choose who you are sexually attracted to, but there is no connection between that and love, which is why so many modern marriages fail. Love is, and should be, dependent not on attraction but on the blending of two personalities. Therefore it is true to say that if the willingness to do so is there, anyone can learn to love anyone else.

Actually psychologists have found that arranged marriages can work.

Can is the operative word. Many psychologists and and people engaging in non arranged marriages have found out those can work, too, without the hassle of being traded like a baseball card.

So there's no reason to condemn arranged marriages.
Of course not, if you see people as baseball cards. If you don't see people as a thing to be traded or brokered, then yeah, arranged marriages should probably be subject to condemnation.
Here we have an advocate for Islamic arranged marriages demonstrating that children can consent to sex.
http://www.debate.org...
ChristianPunk
Posts: 1,710
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10/11/2014 11:02:51 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/11/2014 9:39:40 AM, Truth_seeker wrote:
At 10/10/2014 4:10:37 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
At 10/10/2014 3:53:43 PM, Truth_seeker wrote:

Duteronomy 22:28-29 If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found;
29 Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days.

Nowhere in the bible does the woman here have consent over anything in this law. If the man loves the woman after having sex with her, he must pay 50 shekels of silver to the father and the woman is automatically the wife. This gives a loop hole for rapists to marry their victims.

1. This is a case addressing a particular situation if rape happens.
2. The Hebrew word for rape doesn't even appear in this verse
3. Living single back then meant enduring alot of hardships vs. being married, so for this passage to bond them together is punishment enough.
On the food part.

Acts 10:9-15

9 On the morrow, as they went on their journey, and drew nigh unto the city, Peter went up upon the housetop to pray about the sixth hour:

10 And he became very hungry, and would have eaten: but while they made ready, he fell into a trance,

11 And saw heaven opened, and a certain vessel descending upon him, as it had been a great sheet knit at the four corners, and let down to the earth:

12 Wherein were all manner of fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air.

13 And there came a voice to him, Rise, Peter; kill, and eat.

14 But Peter said, Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean.

15 And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common.
Jesus didn't tell his disciples this...
My relationships didn't work because of problems with life. My last girlfriend had broke up with me before killing herself due to stress at her home. Your not me so don't you dare assume anything about me. I can might as well assume your mom was a hillbilly who home schooled you with videos instead of textbooks, but I am most likely going to lie (which is a sin). Also, we shouldn't be perfect. If we are perfect, then we are not human. Everything on this earth makes mistakes. If you claim to never make mistakes, your are basically claiming to be a god which is idolatry.

1. Your comparing modern cases with ancient ones. Modern dating compared to old traditional customs from another country.
2. What I was saying was something that most likely happened back then.

Where's the evidence?

1. So your saying marriage/bonding is punishment?

2. Who is Peter?

3. My evidence is that I'm sure you can look at some people today and some people back then. There is always people who prefer the custom and people opposed. Look through history.

1. In that world, yes because you were forced to provide for the needs of your wife.

2. Your original claim was "Jesus told his disciples."

3. That's not evidence, that's guesswork. Furthermore it doesn't make modern dating any better than ancient betrothals.

1. You confuse me.

2. Either way, one disciple was told this by Jesus. So even if I got part of it wrong, Jesus told him to eat food which was forbidden by the old law.

3. Please spare me this Ken Ham, "you can't guess and you can't know because you weren't there" crap. The reason why modern dating is better than ancient GREEK and HEBREW traditions is because it means you can know somebody without being committed. Then when we feel like this is the one, we marry them.
Truth_seeker
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10/11/2014 11:53:16 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
Which for Abraham came as some rather clear cut instructions in a manner which most people call an edict. God. Flexing his muscles.
Ok, but what does that have to do with marriage?

In what way is deceit and trickery not inherently skewing the proverbial evil side of the moral-o-meter?
I don't understand...they were punished for listening to the lies and breaking God's commandment.
Um, no, its not. They don't understand the concept of Evil or deception. They don't know what those terms are, or that some one could have the capacity to lie. The Tree is literally titled the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. If Adam or Eve had the capacity to know what those terms were, the tree would be wholly irrelevant as they would know when some one is trying to deceive them. It doesn't matter WHAT Adam knew if he doesn't know what a Lie or deceit is.
Obeying God does not imply that you must have knowledge of good and evil. Obedience is just reverence for God's commandments.
He knew what the commandment was, therefore he was not justified in his action of disobedience.

Even worse when it went wrong he did not turn to God for help sorting it out, but instead sided with his wife. To that one big error we owe all the problems of the world ever since.
Actually the concept of original sin is not biblical. We make our own choices.

Love was something which it was assumed that a couple would cultivate once married, and most did just that.

Mm, arranged love and marriage, what a great foundation. Beats the tar out of shared interests, mutual respect, known history. 'Learned to love' is what you are claiming.

Many people say you cannot choose who you love, but that is very wrong. You cannot choose who you are sexually attracted to, but there is no connection between that and love, which is why so many modern marriages fail. Love is, and should be, dependent not on attraction but on the blending of two personalities. Therefore it is true to say that if the willingness to do so is there, anyone can learn to love anyone else.

Actually psychologists have found that arranged marriages can work.

Can is the operative word. Many psychologists and and people engaging in non arranged marriages have found out those can work, too, without the hassle of being traded like a baseball card.

So there's no reason to condemn arranged marriages.
Of course not, if you see people as baseball cards. If you don't see people as a thing to be traded or brokered, then yeah, arranged marriages should probably be subject to condemnation.

People back then were not baseball cards. You could not trade spouses, therefore your analogy is wrong.
bulproof
Posts: 25,295
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10/11/2014 11:56:36 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/11/2014 11:53:16 AM, Truth_seeker wrote:
Which for Abraham came as some rather clear cut instructions in a manner which most people call an edict. God. Flexing his muscles.
Ok, but what does that have to do with marriage?

In what way is deceit and trickery not inherently skewing the proverbial evil side of the moral-o-meter?
I don't understand...they were punished for listening to the lies and breaking God's commandment.
Um, no, its not. They don't understand the concept of Evil or deception. They don't know what those terms are, or that some one could have the capacity to lie. The Tree is literally titled the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. If Adam or Eve had the capacity to know what those terms were, the tree would be wholly irrelevant as they would know when some one is trying to deceive them. It doesn't matter WHAT Adam knew if he doesn't know what a Lie or deceit is.
Obeying God does not imply that you must have knowledge of good and evil. Obedience is just reverence for God's commandments.
He knew what the commandment was, therefore he was not justified in his action of disobedience.

Even worse when it went wrong he did not turn to God for help sorting it out, but instead sided with his wife. To that one big error we owe all the problems of the world ever since.
Actually the concept of original sin is not biblical. We make our own choices.

Love was something which it was assumed that a couple would cultivate once married, and most did just that.

Mm, arranged love and marriage, what a great foundation. Beats the tar out of shared interests, mutual respect, known history. 'Learned to love' is what you are claiming.

Many people say you cannot choose who you love, but that is very wrong. You cannot choose who you are sexually attracted to, but there is no connection between that and love, which is why so many modern marriages fail. Love is, and should be, dependent not on attraction but on the blending of two personalities. Therefore it is true to say that if the willingness to do so is there, anyone can learn to love anyone else.

Actually psychologists have found that arranged marriages can work.

Can is the operative word. Many psychologists and and people engaging in non arranged marriages have found out those can work, too, without the hassle of being traded like a baseball card.

So there's no reason to condemn arranged marriages.
Of course not, if you see people as baseball cards. If you don't see people as a thing to be traded or brokered, then yeah, arranged marriages should probably be subject to condemnation.

People back then were not baseball cards. You could not trade spouses, therefore your analogy is wrong.

I mean seriously, how old are you.
Your understanding of human relationships is less than my 11yr old grandson possesses.
Just how old are you and have you ever been released from the institution in which you reside?
FaustianJustice
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10/11/2014 11:59:21 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/11/2014 11:53:16 AM, Truth_seeker wrote:
Which for Abraham came as some rather clear cut instructions in a manner which most people call an edict. God. Flexing his muscles.
Ok, but what does that have to do with marriage?

In what way is deceit and trickery not inherently skewing the proverbial evil side of the moral-o-meter?
I don't understand...they were punished for listening to the lies and breaking God's commandment.

If you have no idea what a Lie is, how would you know its not a commandment. How would you know that the serpent was speaking the truth if you could not discern fact from deceit?
Um, no, its not. They don't understand the concept of Evil or deception. They don't know what those terms are, or that some one could have the capacity to lie. The Tree is literally titled the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. If Adam or Eve had the capacity to know what those terms were, the tree would be wholly irrelevant as they would know when some one is trying to deceive them. It doesn't matter WHAT Adam knew if he doesn't know what a Lie or deceit is.
Obeying God does not imply that you must have knowledge of good and evil. Obedience is just reverence for God's commandments.

Again, if you have no idea as to what a lie is, how harshly can you judge that variety of sin?

He knew what the commandment was, therefore he was not justified in his action of disobedience.

Even worse when it went wrong he did not turn to God for help sorting it out, but instead sided with his wife. To that one big error we owe all the problems of the world ever since.
Actually the concept of original sin is not biblical. We make our own choices.

Love was something which it was assumed that a couple would cultivate once married, and most did just that.

Mm, arranged love and marriage, what a great foundation. Beats the tar out of shared interests, mutual respect, known history. 'Learned to love' is what you are claiming.

Many people say you cannot choose who you love, but that is very wrong. You cannot choose who you are sexually attracted to, but there is no connection between that and love, which is why so many modern marriages fail. Love is, and should be, dependent not on attraction but on the blending of two personalities. Therefore it is true to say that if the willingness to do so is there, anyone can learn to love anyone else.

Actually psychologists have found that arranged marriages can work.

Can is the operative word. Many psychologists and and people engaging in non arranged marriages have found out those can work, too, without the hassle of being traded like a baseball card.

So there's no reason to condemn arranged marriages.
Of course not, if you see people as baseball cards. If you don't see people as a thing to be traded or brokered, then yeah, arranged marriages should probably be subject to condemnation.

People back then were not baseball cards. You could not trade spouses, therefore your analogy is wrong.

Daughters are people, and they were traded for. And brokered. As though they were a commodity, rather than a person. Spouse, specifically, was not something I mentioned, though its a really poor refute to make, if the spouse in question was arranged. I said 'people'.
Here we have an advocate for Islamic arranged marriages demonstrating that children can consent to sex.
http://www.debate.org...
Truth_seeker
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10/11/2014 12:02:47 PM
Posted: 2 years ago

If you have no idea what a Lie is, how would you know its not a commandment. How would you know that the serpent was speaking the truth if you could not discern fact from deceit?
The commandment simply said "don't do it", what's hard to understand about that?

Again, if you have no idea as to what a lie is, how harshly can you judge that variety of sin?
They disobeyed because they ate of the tree of knowledge, not simply because they believed in a lie.

Daughters are people, and they were traded for. And brokered. As though they were a commodity, rather than a person. Spouse, specifically, was not something I mentioned, though its a really poor refute to make, if the spouse in question was arranged. I said 'people'.

Do you have any empirical evidence to support your claim?
FaustianJustice
Posts: 6,238
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10/11/2014 12:10:11 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/11/2014 12:02:47 PM, Truth_seeker wrote:

If you have no idea what a Lie is, how would you know its not a commandment. How would you know that the serpent was speaking the truth if you could not discern fact from deceit?
The commandment simply said "don't do it", what's hard to understand about that?

Don't do it, if you don't know what a lie is is just as easy to believe 'you can do it'. Adam and Eve were literally exposed to nothing, and pitted against a conniving celestial entity who took ANGELS with him during his fall. Smart money is on the snake, don'tcha think?


Again, if you have no idea as to what a lie is, how harshly can you judge that variety of sin?
They disobeyed because they ate of the tree of knowledge, not simply because they believed in a lie.

See previous.

Daughters are people, and they were traded for. And brokered. As though they were a commodity, rather than a person. Spouse, specifically, was not something I mentioned, though its a really poor refute to make, if the spouse in question was arranged. I said 'people'.

Do you have any empirical evidence to support your claim?

From the Bible? Lets start when Lot offered up his daughters to the Mob, how is that for starts? And what of the story of Hagar, the Handmaiden being used as a surrogate... would you like me to exclude the Bible and explain the historical pre Renaissance familiar marriages?
Here we have an advocate for Islamic arranged marriages demonstrating that children can consent to sex.
http://www.debate.org...
Beastt
Posts: 5,135
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10/11/2014 2:52:13 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/9/2014 11:10:29 PM, Truth_seeker wrote:
I'd simply like to share some thoughts on marriage from studying the Scriptures. Marriage begins with Adam and Eve when Adam is created after the image of God and Eve after Adam.
Why Eve from Adam, and not Adam from Eve? And note this was done only after Adam declined to mate with the beasts of the field.

He was given the commandment from God to not eat of the tree of knowledge while the woman wasn't. Looking at the Old and New Testament, the man functions as the spiritual leader in the home.
And Christians seem blind to the chauvinistic implications.

There is no legal marriage, simply paradise. Woman was made to be man's own companion in this life and both must become one in everything that they are in love.
Were Adam and Eve in love, or simply limited in their choice?

Now in our society, it seems to be the custom that people simply date until they find "the right one", but it didn't work that way before for good reason. God himself arranged the marriage of Adam and Eve.
So much for free-will.

Arranged marriages were common back then. There was a lot of family honor involved as well as protection.
As well as family "honor killings" - approved by God.

Families would hide their daughters away to protect them. Women would wear veils before actually uniting with their lovers. Family heritage and inheritance was also involved. Wisdom and love was focused on in the Scriptures rather than wild emotions and superficial things.
Why is it not superficial to make women cover their faces? Seems pretty shallow to me. Perhaps the men could be asked to curb their lust?

Women in the Bible are not seen as weak or helpless.
Nor are they man's equal. They're secondary in all things.

In the Proverbs, the ideal woman is seen as strong, royal, pure, and wise.
Wise women don't flock to ancient chauvinistic writings.

The ideal woman in Proverbs 31 is full of strength, dignity, honor, love, courageous, wise, doing her best in everything she does as a mom and wife especially in reverence to God.
God always writes himself in as of maximum importance.

Notice that nowhere is her physical attractiveness mentioned. People need to stop listening to the lies of society that tell women they need to be pretty, give sex, have money, etc. to be accepted.
They don't need to be pretty or sexy. If you love who they are, those things are automatic. Yet, there is nothing wrong with looking your best as long as it doesn't consume you mentally.

The benefits of courtship is that you have more experienced family members giving their input into the relationship.
Gathering more evidence to confirm your partner's character.

I see alot of things wrong with most relationships today. According to studies and observation, most relationships don't work because people discover that they never were in love to begin with. True love is eternal and it flourishes to it's highest peak.
Love can last or be fleeting. Perhaps you should note and wonder that atheist marriages tend to succeed at the same rate as Christian marriages.
"If we believe absurdities we shall commit atrocities." -- Voltaire
bulproof
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10/11/2014 9:50:10 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/11/2014 12:02:47 PM, Truth_seeker wrote:

If you have no idea what a Lie is, how would you know its not a commandment. How would you know that the serpent was speaking the truth if you could not discern fact from deceit?
The commandment simply said "don't do it", what's hard to understand about that?
Does a new born understand "don't do it"?

You may not be aware of this but obedience is learned it is not innate, you must be taught it.
So your god is the dumbest parent to have ever existed.