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Sins of the Father.

bulproof
Posts: 25,203
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10/13/2014 11:27:55 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
Many christians claim that their god is both merciful and just, they also claim that their god is not vindictive and doesn't hold a grudge. They claim that he does not visit the sins of the father upon the sons.

I wonder then can anyone explain these passages, which clearly claim that god will do PRECISELY that.

:QUOTES

Exodus 34:7 ESV /

Keeping steadfast love for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, but who will by no means clear the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children and the children's children, to the third and the fourth generation."

Deuteronomy 24:16 ESV /

"Fathers shall not be put to death because of their children, nor shall children be put to death because of their fathers. Each one shall be put to death for his own sin.

Ezekiel 18:19-20 ESV /

"Yet you say, "Why should not the son suffer for the iniquity of the father?" When the son has done what is just and right, and has been careful to observe all my statutes, he shall surely live. The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.

Numbers 14:18 ESV /

"The Lord is slow to anger and abounding in steadfast love, forgiving iniquity and transgression, but he will by no means clear the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, to the third and the fourth generation."

Deuteronomy 5:9 ESV /

You shall not bow down to them or serve them; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me,

Exodus 20:1-26 ESV /

And God spoke all these words, saying, "I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery. "You shall have no other gods before me. "You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. You shall not bow down to them or serve them, for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me,

John 9:1-3 ESV /
As he passed by, he saw a man blind from birth. And his disciples asked him, "Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?" Jesus answered, "It was not that this man sinned, or his parents, but that the works of God might be displayed in him.

Exodus 20:5 ESV /

You shall not bow down to them or serve them, for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me,
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
12_13
Posts: 1,361
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10/13/2014 3:10:09 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/13/2014 11:27:55 AM, bulproof wrote:
Many christians claim that their god is both merciful and just, they also claim that their god is not vindictive and doesn't hold a grudge. They claim that he does not visit the sins of the father upon the sons.

I wonder then can anyone explain these passages, which clearly claim that god will do PRECISELY that.

If children do the same sins as their fathers, then they will be punished by sins of their fathers, sin that they have made like their fathers. The punishment is not because of the father, but because of the sin that they made like their father ( = sins of father).
irreverent_god
Posts: 1,378
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10/13/2014 3:34:35 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/13/2014 3:10:09 PM, 12_13 wrote:
At 10/13/2014 11:27:55 AM, bulproof wrote:
Many christians claim that their god is both merciful and just, they also claim that their god is not vindictive and doesn't hold a grudge. They claim that he does not visit the sins of the father upon the sons.

I wonder then can anyone explain these passages, which clearly claim that god will do PRECISELY that.

If children do the same sins as their fathers, then they will be punished by sins of their fathers, sin that they have made like their fathers. The punishment is not because of the father, but because of the sin that they made like their father ( = sins of father).

READ:

"...visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me..."

What part of that even IMPLIES that the childres (to the third and fourth generation) even committed any sin? Nothing. Children, biblically speaking, are guilty by birth, and punished for it.
Logic and Reason are the precursor to Justice.
Faith and zealotry are the precursor to Folly.
DPMartin
Posts: 1,096
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10/13/2014 3:58:53 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
So what are you saying? That there are Christians that don"t know scripture and don"t know what they are talking about? And that proves what? There are people who are incorrect about something? An amazing discovery there bulproof. We Christians would have never guessed.

It also says if you want to look it up that God is a consuming fire. Therefore if your point is the wrath of God is not so cute and cuddly, then how does one survive such a power? Just because there are those who don"t know what the scripture says doesn"t make it any less true.
peaceseeker
Posts: 90
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10/13/2014 5:41:53 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/13/2014 11:27:55 AM, bulproof wrote:
Many christians claim that their god is both merciful and just, they also claim that their god is not vindictive and doesn't hold a grudge. They claim that he does not visit the sins of the father upon the sons.

I wonder then can anyone explain these passages, which clearly claim that god will do PRECISELY that.

The custodians of the torch of Christianity didn't come to believe in the Bible as the literal Word of God for more than a thousand years after the Council of Nicaea and only a minuscule fraction of all the Christians who have ever lived have regarded it as so being. The only thing ever asserted within scripture to be the literal, written Words of God are what Moses carried down from the mountaintop. We now have millions of people who are realizing, for the first time, that the Bible wasn't carved in stone by the hand of God in the manner of the 10 Commandments.

God will not interfere with your life on earth or physically harm or punish anyone. The same way a parent makes a child aware when the child has committed a wrong act, the conscience will weigh on the spirit and one with a conscience will be repentant; that is the extent of the punishment. When evil deeds are constant, the conscience gets anesthetized and no longer communicates with the spirit; upon physical death, the spirit dies also.

Sins were invented by people in order to frighten the masses to conform to standards set by people. If our laws are not obeyed, punishment will be by the appropriate government agency. God will not punish sinners here or hereafter.
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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10/13/2014 5:57:14 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/13/2014 11:27:55 AM, bulproof wrote:
Many christians claim that their god is both merciful and just, they also claim that their god is not vindictive and doesn't hold a grudge. They claim that he does not visit the sins of the father upon the sons.

I wonder then can anyone explain these passages, which clearly claim that god will do PRECISELY that.

:QUOTES

Exodus 34:7 ESV /

There are no contradictions there because the scriptures are talking of different factors, contexts,

If a son moves away from the sinful course of his father, his father's sins will not be held against him

However A sinful father usually teaches his son his ways and therefore the sin is carried on from generation to generation or, as the scripture puts it is visited on those subsequent generations.


Keeping steadfast love for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, but who will by no means clear the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children and the children's children, to the third and the fourth generation."

Deuteronomy 24:16 ESV /

"Fathers shall not be put to death because of their children, nor shall children be put to death because of their fathers. Each one shall be put to death for his own sin.

Ezekiel 18:19-20 ESV /

"Yet you say, "Why should not the son suffer for the iniquity of the father?" When the son has done what is just and right, and has been careful to observe all my statutes, he shall surely live. The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.

Numbers 14:18 ESV /

"The Lord is slow to anger and abounding in steadfast love, forgiving iniquity and transgression, but he will by no means clear the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, to the third and the fourth generation."

Deuteronomy 5:9 ESV /

You shall not bow down to them or serve them; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me,

Exodus 20:1-26 ESV /


And God spoke all these words, saying, "I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery. "You shall have no other gods before me. "You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. You shall not bow down to them or serve them, for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me,


Again Jehovah was saying there that an unfaithful father was almost certain to raise an unfaithful son, and that the sin would therefore be carried on from generation to generation until a son was raised who left the unfaithful course.

John 9:1-3 ESV /
As he passed by, he saw a man blind from birth. And his disciples asked him, "Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?" Jesus answered, "It was not that this man sinned, or his parents, but that the works of God might be displayed in him.

Meaning that he was blind so that Jesus could display God's pwoer by healing him.

Jesus questioners were twisting scripture to catch Jesus out, but Jesus deflected their stupidity.

The boys blindness was not down to sinful acts performed by either himself or his parents but due to the inherent sin we all carry in us which makes us ill and kills us.

Exodus 20:5 ESV /

You shall not bow down to them or serve them, for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me,

Many from amongst the Israelites proved that an unfaithful father usually raised an unfaithful son thus the iniquities, and the condemnation due to them, were carried from generation to generation occasionally a son would rebel against his father's ways thus saving his own life and those of his progeny.

The passages do not picture God as holding a grudge, then as now since left behind and never repeated are forgiven and forgotten unless they are repeated

Of course I know you don't really want the answer. If you did you would have accepted it when I gave you it long ago, but you are not here looking for truth but to try and score points.
peaceseeker
Posts: 90
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10/13/2014 6:04:03 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/13/2014 5:57:14 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:

Of course I know you don't really want the answer. If you did you would have accepted it when I gave you it long ago, but you are not here looking for truth but to try and score points.

Truth? If the medieval practices and the medieval beliefs of Christianity, Judaism and Islam that are based on superstitions were eliminated, then we could start building a rational and logical belief system that is based on truth and an understanding of spirituality. This is the value of truthfulness and rationality.

Truthfulness and rationality in religions are truths that can be substantiated by science or those that can not be proven to be wrong. Spiritual interaction is only possible between the spirit of God and man's spirit. Claims of supernatural acts performed by physical or spiritual beings in the physical universe are not truths.
bulproof
Posts: 25,203
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10/13/2014 8:39:38 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/13/2014 5:57:14 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 10/13/2014 11:27:55 AM, bulproof wrote:
Many christians claim that their god is both merciful and just, they also claim that their god is not vindictive and doesn't hold a grudge. They claim that he does not visit the sins of the father upon the sons.

I wonder then can anyone explain these passages, which clearly claim that god will do PRECISELY that.

:QUOTES

Exodus 34:7 ESV /

There are no contradictions there because the scriptures are talking of different factors, contexts,

If a son moves away from the sinful course of his father, his father's sins will not be held against him

However A sinful father usually teaches his son his ways and therefore the sin is carried on from generation to generation or, as the scripture puts it is visited on those subsequent generations.


Keeping steadfast love for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, but who will by no means clear the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children and the children's children, to the third and the fourth generation."

Deuteronomy 24:16 ESV /

"Fathers shall not be put to death because of their children, nor shall children be put to death because of their fathers. Each one shall be put to death for his own sin.

Ezekiel 18:19-20 ESV /

"Yet you say, "Why should not the son suffer for the iniquity of the father?" When the son has done what is just and right, and has been careful to observe all my statutes, he shall surely live. The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.

Numbers 14:18 ESV /

"The Lord is slow to anger and abounding in steadfast love, forgiving iniquity and transgression, but he will by no means clear the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, to the third and the fourth generation."

Deuteronomy 5:9 ESV /

You shall not bow down to them or serve them; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me,

Exodus 20:1-26 ESV /


And God spoke all these words, saying, "I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery. "You shall have no other gods before me. "You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. You shall not bow down to them or serve them, for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me,


Again Jehovah was saying there that an unfaithful father was almost certain to raise an unfaithful son, and that the sin would therefore be carried on from generation to generation until a son was raised who left the unfaithful course.

John 9:1-3 ESV /
As he passed by, he saw a man blind from birth. And his disciples asked him, "Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?" Jesus answered, "It was not that this man sinned, or his parents, but that the works of God might be displayed in him.

Meaning that he was blind so that Jesus could display God's pwoer by healing him.

Jesus questioners were twisting scripture to catch Jesus out, but Jesus deflected their stupidity.


The boys blindness was not down to sinful acts performed by either himself or his parents but due to the inherent sin we all carry in us which makes us ill and kills us.

Exodus 20:5 ESV /

You shall not bow down to them or serve them, for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me,

Many from amongst the Israelites proved that an unfaithful father usually raised an unfaithful son thus the iniquities, and the condemnation due to them, were carried from generation to generation occasionally a son would rebel against his father's ways thus saving his own life and those of his progeny.

The passages do not picture God as holding a grudge, then as now since left behind and never repeated are forgiven and forgotten unless they are repeated

Of course I know you don't really want the answer. If you did you would have accepted it when I gave you it long ago, but you are not here looking for truth but to try and score points.

Read post #3 by IG.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
bornofgod
Posts: 11,322
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10/13/2014 9:07:02 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/13/2014 5:41:53 PM, peaceseeker wrote:
At 10/13/2014 11:27:55 AM, bulproof wrote:
Many christians claim that their god is both merciful and just, they also claim that their god is not vindictive and doesn't hold a grudge. They claim that he does not visit the sins of the father upon the sons.

I wonder then can anyone explain these passages, which clearly claim that god will do PRECISELY that.

The custodians of the torch of Christianity didn't come to believe in the Bible as the literal Word of God for more than a thousand years after the Council of Nicaea and only a minuscule fraction of all the Christians who have ever lived have regarded it as so being. The only thing ever asserted within scripture to be the literal, written Words of God are what Moses carried down from the mountaintop. We now have millions of people who are realizing, for the first time, that the Bible wasn't carved in stone by the hand of God in the manner of the 10 Commandments.

God will not interfere with your life on earth or physically harm or punish anyone. The same way a parent makes a child aware when the child has committed a wrong act, the conscience will weigh on the spirit and one with a conscience will be repentant; that is the extent of the punishment. When evil deeds are constant, the conscience gets anesthetized and no longer communicates with the spirit; upon physical death, the spirit dies also.

Sins were invented by people in order to frighten the masses to conform to standards set by people. If our laws are not obeyed, punishment will be by the appropriate government agency. God will not punish sinners here or hereafter.

You're a very deluded man who will die like the rest of God's people during this age. Only us saints and prophets listen to the voice of the Lord and obey His commandments to learn who we are in Him.
bornofgod
Posts: 11,322
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10/13/2014 9:10:21 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/13/2014 5:57:14 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 10/13/2014 11:27:55 AM, bulproof wrote:
Many christians claim that their god is both merciful and just, they also claim that their god is not vindictive and doesn't hold a grudge. They claim that he does not visit the sins of the father upon the sons.

I wonder then can anyone explain these passages, which clearly claim that god will do PRECISELY that.

:QUOTES

Exodus 34:7 ESV /

There are no contradictions there because the scriptures are talking of different factors, contexts,

If a son moves away from the sinful course of his father, his father's sins will not be held against him

However A sinful father usually teaches his son his ways and therefore the sin is carried on from generation to generation or, as the scripture puts it is visited on those subsequent generations.


Keeping steadfast love for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, but who will by no means clear the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children and the children's children, to the third and the fourth generation."

Deuteronomy 24:16 ESV /

"Fathers shall not be put to death because of their children, nor shall children be put to death because of their fathers. Each one shall be put to death for his own sin.

Ezekiel 18:19-20 ESV /

"Yet you say, "Why should not the son suffer for the iniquity of the father?" When the son has done what is just and right, and has been careful to observe all my statutes, he shall surely live. The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.

Numbers 14:18 ESV /

"The Lord is slow to anger and abounding in steadfast love, forgiving iniquity and transgression, but he will by no means clear the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, to the third and the fourth generation."

Deuteronomy 5:9 ESV /

You shall not bow down to them or serve them; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me,

Exodus 20:1-26 ESV /


And God spoke all these words, saying, "I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery. "You shall have no other gods before me. "You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. You shall not bow down to them or serve them, for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me,


Again Jehovah was saying there that an unfaithful father was almost certain to raise an unfaithful son, and that the sin would therefore be carried on from generation to generation until a son was raised who left the unfaithful course.

John 9:1-3 ESV /
As he passed by, he saw a man blind from birth. And his disciples asked him, "Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?" Jesus answered, "It was not that this man sinned, or his parents, but that the works of God might be displayed in him.

Meaning that he was blind so that Jesus could display God's pwoer by healing him.

Jesus questioners were twisting scripture to catch Jesus out, but Jesus deflected their stupidity.


The boys blindness was not down to sinful acts performed by either himself or his parents but due to the inherent sin we all carry in us which makes us ill and kills us.

Exodus 20:5 ESV /

You shall not bow down to them or serve them, for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me,

Many from amongst the Israelites proved that an unfaithful father usually raised an unfaithful son thus the iniquities, and the condemnation due to them, were carried from generation to generation occasionally a son would rebel against his father's ways thus saving his own life and those of his progeny.

The passages do not picture God as holding a grudge, then as now since left behind and never repeated are forgiven and forgotten unless they are repeated

Of course I know you don't really want the answer. If you did you would have accepted it when I gave you it long ago, but you are not here looking for truth but to try and score points.

No father teaches his sons how to be alcoholics. God is the Creator of EVERYTHING so He's the one who made the father an alcoholic and possibly some of his sons as they grow up. Man doesn't teach anyone anything because our Creator is the only teacher that exists. He's the only Healer to exist, too.
bulproof
Posts: 25,203
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10/13/2014 11:14:40 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/13/2014 3:58:53 PM, DPMartin wrote:
So what are you saying? That there are Christians that don"t know scripture and don"t know what they are talking about? And that proves what? There are people who are incorrect about something? An amazing discovery there bulproof. We Christians would have never guessed.

It also says if you want to look it up that God is a consuming fire. Therefore if your point is the wrath of God is not so cute and cuddly, then how does one survive such a power? Just because there are those who don"t know what the scripture says doesn"t make it any less true.
Actually it would seem that you are saying that your god is not merciful and just, that your god is vindictive and does hold a grudge.

BTW is there passages in the bible that deny that god will visit the sins of the father on the sons? So those christians who claim such may indeed know scripture?
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
DPMartin
Posts: 1,096
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10/14/2014 8:33:08 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
There is such a thing as God"s wrath,
Jn:3:36: He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

and there is such a thing as God"s love.

Jn:3:35: The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.

You can go in circles about it as long as you please, it doesn"t change, God loves through His Son, and anything out side of that will receive otherwise.

It was said by John that God is love, but that doesn"t mean man"s view or judgement of what love is or what love ought to be, is God.
bulproof
Posts: 25,203
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10/14/2014 8:37:49 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/14/2014 8:33:08 AM, DPMartin wrote:
There is such a thing as God"s wrath,
Jn:3:36: He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

and there is such a thing as God"s love.

Jn:3:35: The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.

You can go in circles about it as long as you please, it doesn"t change, God loves through His Son, and anything out side of that will receive otherwise.


It was said by John that God is love, but that doesn"t mean man"s view or judgement of what love is or what love ought to be, is God.

That doesn't alter the FACT that in your holy book your god declares that he will punish for 4 generations the sins of the father.

What is it you people don't understand about that?
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
DPMartin
Posts: 1,096
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10/14/2014 9:08:06 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/14/2014 8:37:49 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 10/14/2014 8:33:08 AM, DPMartin wrote:
There is such a thing as God"s wrath,
Jn:3:36: He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

and there is such a thing as God"s love.

Jn:3:35: The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.

You can go in circles about it as long as you please, it doesn"t change, God loves through His Son, and anything out side of that will receive otherwise.


It was said by John that God is love, but that doesn"t mean man"s view or judgement of what love is or what love ought to be, is God.

That doesn't alter the FACT that in your holy book your god declares that he will punish for 4 generations the sins of the father.

What is it you people don't understand about that?

What is it you understand about that?
bulproof
Posts: 25,203
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10/14/2014 9:13:02 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/14/2014 9:08:06 AM, DPMartin wrote:
At 10/14/2014 8:37:49 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 10/14/2014 8:33:08 AM, DPMartin wrote:
There is such a thing as God"s wrath,
Jn:3:36: He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

and there is such a thing as God"s love.

Jn:3:35: The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.

You can go in circles about it as long as you please, it doesn"t change, God loves through His Son, and anything out side of that will receive otherwise.


It was said by John that God is love, but that doesn"t mean man"s view or judgement of what love is or what love ought to be, is God.

That doesn't alter the FACT that in your holy book your god declares that he will punish for 4 generations the sins of the father.

What is it you people don't understand about that?

What is it you understand about that?
Scary as all phuck isn't it?
Maybe you need a heart transplant?
You know, some courage to face your fears.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
LifeMeansGodIsGood
Posts: 2,744
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10/14/2014 9:21:21 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/13/2014 11:27:55 AM, bulproof wrote:
Many christians claim that their god is both merciful and just, they also claim that their god is not vindictive and doesn't hold a grudge. They claim that he does not visit the sins of the father upon the sons.

I wonder then can anyone explain these passages, which clearly claim that god will do PRECISELY that.

:QUOTES

Exodus 34:7 ESV /

So atheism is a religious discussion, and that is why you come to the religion forum, to attack all religion?

Keeping steadfast love for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, but who will by no means clear the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children and the children's children, to the third and the fourth generation."

Deuteronomy 24:16 ESV /

"Fathers shall not be put to death because of their children, nor shall children be put to death because of their fathers. Each one shall be put to death for his own sin.

Ezekiel 18:19-20 ESV /

"Yet you say, "Why should not the son suffer for the iniquity of the father?" When the son has done what is just and right, and has been careful to observe all my statutes, he shall surely live. The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.

Numbers 14:18 ESV /

"The Lord is slow to anger and abounding in steadfast love, forgiving iniquity and transgression, but he will by no means clear the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, to the third and the fourth generation."

Deuteronomy 5:9 ESV /

You shall not bow down to them or serve them; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me,

Exodus 20:1-26 ESV /


And God spoke all these words, saying, "I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery. "You shall have no other gods before me. "You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. You shall not bow down to them or serve them, for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me,

John 9:1-3 ESV /
As he passed by, he saw a man blind from birth. And his disciples asked him, "Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?" Jesus answered, "It was not that this man sinned, or his parents, but that the works of God might be displayed in him.

Exodus 20:5 ESV /

You shall not bow down to them or serve them, for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me,
DPMartin
Posts: 1,096
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10/14/2014 9:26:48 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/14/2014 9:13:02 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 10/14/2014 9:08:06 AM, DPMartin wrote:
At 10/14/2014 8:37:49 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 10/14/2014 8:33:08 AM, DPMartin wrote:
There is such a thing as God"s wrath,
Jn:3:36: He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

and there is such a thing as God"s love.

Jn:3:35: The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.

You can go in circles about it as long as you please, it doesn"t change, God loves through His Son, and anything out side of that will receive otherwise.


It was said by John that God is love, but that doesn"t mean man"s view or judgement of what love is or what love ought to be, is God.

That doesn't alter the FACT that in your holy book your god declares that he will punish for 4 generations the sins of the father.

What is it you people don't understand about that?

What is it you understand about that?
Scary as all phuck isn't it?
Maybe you need a heart transplant?
You know, some courage to face your fears.

That"s right bulproof make it about the poster, rather then the posting, which means you loss.
bulproof
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10/14/2014 9:31:04 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/14/2014 9:21:21 AM, LifeMeansGodIsGood wrote:
At 10/13/2014 11:27:55 AM, bulproof wrote:
Many christians claim that their god is both merciful and just, they also claim that their god is not vindictive and doesn't hold a grudge. They claim that he does not visit the sins of the father upon the sons.

I wonder then can anyone explain these passages, which clearly claim that god will do PRECISELY that.

:QUOTES

Exodus 34:7 ESV /

So atheism is a religious discussion, and that is why you come to the religion forum, to attack all religion?

Keeping steadfast love for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, but who will by no means clear the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children and the children's children, to the third and the fourth generation."

Deuteronomy 24:16 ESV /

"Fathers shall not be put to death because of their children, nor shall children be put to death because of their fathers. Each one shall be put to death for his own sin.

Ezekiel 18:19-20 ESV /

"Yet you say, "Why should not the son suffer for the iniquity of the father?" When the son has done what is just and right, and has been careful to observe all my statutes, he shall surely live. The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.

Numbers 14:18 ESV /

"The Lord is slow to anger and abounding in steadfast love, forgiving iniquity and transgression, but he will by no means clear the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, to the third and the fourth generation."

Deuteronomy 5:9 ESV /

You shall not bow down to them or serve them; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me,

Exodus 20:1-26 ESV /


And God spoke all these words, saying, "I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery. "You shall have no other gods before me. "You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. You shall not bow down to them or serve them, for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me,

John 9:1-3 ESV /
As he passed by, he saw a man blind from birth. And his disciples asked him, "Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?" Jesus answered, "It was not that this man sinned, or his parents, but that the works of God might be displayed in him.

Exodus 20:5 ESV /

You shall not bow down to them or serve them, for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me,

Can you not differentiate between your beliefs and your book and your religion?

I attack your book and your beliefs and your religion that devolves from your book.
I have asked incessantly for a believer to define why they consider the bible to be the word of god and why it is the be all and end all of christianity.
And nobody has been capable of telling me.

Wanna try?
Getting upset when someone tells you that what you believe is stupid is a reflection on you if you can't prove that claim wrong.
Unfortunately you and yours have never been able to do such. Makes you angry.............don't it?
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
DPMartin
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10/14/2014 9:53:17 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/14/2014 9:31:04 AM, bulproof wrote:
Can you not differentiate between your beliefs and your book and your religion?

I attack your book and your beliefs and your religion that devolves from your book.
I have asked incessantly for a believer to define why they consider the bible to be the word of god and why it is the be all and end all of christianity.
And nobody has been capable of telling me.

Wanna try?
Getting upset when someone tells you that what you believe is stupid is a reflection on you if you can't prove that claim wrong.
Unfortunately you and yours have never been able to do such. Makes you angry.............don't it?

Again bulproof what does that prove? That there are people that are incorrect about something? There are many people that live by the Constitution of the US but don"t have a clue to what it says.

According to your way of thinking almost all US citizens are stupid and shouldn"t follow the agreement of the constitution because they aren"t lawyers on the subject.

Just because people who believe the bible don"t know it cover to cover doesn"t make them incorrect for believing what it says. Nor does it make the scriptures any less true.
12_13
Posts: 1,361
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10/14/2014 10:41:28 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/13/2014 3:34:35 PM, irreverent_god wrote:
"...visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me..."

What part of that even IMPLIES that the childres (to the third and fourth generation) even committed any sin? Nothing. Children, biblically speaking, are guilty by birth, and punished for it.

People who hate God live against his will and sin. So, if the children hate God, then they get what is wage of sin by sins that they have made.
ThinkFirst
Posts: 1,391
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10/14/2014 10:52:34 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/13/2014 5:57:14 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:

There are no contradictions there because the scriptures are talking of different factors, contexts,

The "context" card is the joker in the biblical theist's ambivalent deck of biblical explanation playing cards. Each new contradiction, incorrect statement, false claim, prophetic brain fart, metaphor, parable, and "vision" explanation requires its own "joker." Therefore the biblical deck is infinite.

If a son moves away from the sinful course of his father, his father's sins will not be held against him

The bible does not state such. It states, very plainly, "...to the third and fourth generation." There is no caveat offered, there is no exception, there is no remediation. Three to four generations of a family are stated to have their ancestors' sins visited upon them. In order for this "interpretation" to be correct, you must INSERT it. What does your bible say about those who change the "word" of your deity?

Rev. 22:18,19:

18 I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to that person the plagues described in this scroll. 19 And if anyone takes words away from this scroll of prophecy, God will take away from that person any share in the tree of life and in the Holy City, which are described in this scroll.

However A sinful father usually teaches his son his ways and therefore the sin is carried on from generation to generation or, as the scripture puts it is visited on those subsequent generations.

How convenient... "Usually" is not substantive enough to account for the fact that the bible states its case unequivocally. This thought process is perfectly in keeping with the superstitious nature of the people of the time. They believed in being "cursed." They believed that words could enact "bad luck," "pestilence," suffering, etc. The bible is very clear, in several places, that this visitation has no recourse for remediation. The father sins, the offspring suffer. Period. There is no "context" you can offer that will ameliorate the wickedness and injustice of such an edict.


Keeping steadfast love for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, but who will by no means clear the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children and the children's children, to the third and the fourth generation."

Deuteronomy 24:16 ESV /

"Fathers shall not be put to death because of their children, nor shall children be put to death because of their fathers. Each one shall be put to death for his own sin.

Ezekiel 18:19-20 ESV /

"Yet you say, "Why should not the son suffer for the iniquity of the father?" When the son has done what is just and right, and has been careful to observe all my statutes, he shall surely live. The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.

Numbers 14:18 ESV /

"The Lord is slow to anger and abounding in steadfast love, forgiving iniquity and transgression, but he will by no means clear the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, to the third and the fourth generation."

Deuteronomy 5:9 ESV /

You shall not bow down to them or serve them; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me,

Exodus 20:1-26 ESV /


And God spoke all these words, saying, "I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery. "You shall have no other gods before me. "You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. You shall not bow down to them or serve them, for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me,


Again Jehovah was saying there that an unfaithful father was almost certain to raise an unfaithful son, and that the sin would therefore be carried on from generation to generation until a son was raised who left the unfaithful course.

No, it was NOT saying that. Atheists/Agnostics read the bible with the understanding that it means what it says. Apologists "read" the bible under the assumption that it says what they mean (at any given moment, subject to alteration at convenience). Your bible states very plainly that it is done, without any mention of any behavior on the part of the offspring. If you wish to insert your "meaning" into what you read, you are perfectly entitled. We are equally entitled to reject your "interpretation."

John 9:1-3 ESV /
As he passed by, he saw a man blind from birth. And his disciples asked him, "Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?" Jesus answered, "It was not that this man sinned, or his parents, but that the works of God might be displayed in him.

Meaning that he was blind so that Jesus could display God's pwoer by healing him.

What a horrible reason to punish someone! If the purpose of blinding an human being is solely and exclusively to put on a show, this is not a benevolent creature. How would you feel about a doctor that gives a child strep throat, just so he could display his ability to cure with a prescription of antibiotics?

Jesus questioners were twisting scripture to catch Jesus out, but Jesus deflected their stupidity.

How interesting... All the power of the universe at his fingertips, and this character chooses to be clever, with a suffering human's body...


The boys blindness was not down to sinful acts performed by either himself or his parents but due to the inherent sin we all carry in us which makes us ill and kills us.

You have GOT to be kidding. If this is true, why are we not ALL blind? This statement was just plain stupid.

Exodus 20:5 ESV /

You shall not bow down to them or serve them, for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me,

Many from amongst the Israelites proved that an unfaithful father usually raised an unfaithful son thus the iniquities, and the condemnation due to them, were carried from generation to generation occasionally a son would rebel against his father's ways thus saving his own life and those of his progeny.

We've been over this. You have to INJECT way too much, for this to be "sound," as an argument... FAIL.

The passages do not picture God as holding a grudge, then as now since left behind and never repeated are forgiven and forgotten unless they are repeated

Third and fourth generation... No mention of any sin on their part, to deserve punishment. Not even the inference that the offspring needed to do any wrong. Just be the unlucky eggs to have been fertilized by his love-goo.

Of course I know you don't really want the answer. If you did you would have accepted it when I gave you it long ago, but you are not here looking for truth but to try and score points.

You don't give "answers," and what you speak is not "truth." You flat out have to make it up as you go, and disregard every contradiction, falsehood, inaccuracy and blatant stupidity, in order to cling tenaciously to that which could not possibly be the "word" of any all-knowing deity.
"Never attribute to villainy that which can be adequately explained by stupidity"
-----
"Men rarely if ever dream up a god superior to themselves. Most gods have the manners and morals of a spoiled child. "

-- Robert A Heinlein
bulproof
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10/14/2014 10:58:27 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/14/2014 9:53:17 AM, DPMartin wrote:
At 10/14/2014 9:31:04 AM, bulproof wrote:
Can you not differentiate between your beliefs and your book and your religion?

I attack your book and your beliefs and your religion that devolves from your book.
I have asked incessantly for a believer to define why they consider the bible to be the word of god and why it is the be all and end all of christianity.
And nobody has been capable of telling me.

Wanna try?
Getting upset when someone tells you that what you believe is stupid is a reflection on you if you can't prove that claim wrong.
Unfortunately you and yours have never been able to do such. Makes you angry.............don't it?

Again bulproof what does that prove? That there are people that are incorrect about something? There are many people that live by the Constitution of the US but don"t have a clue to what it says.

According to your way of thinking almost all US citizens are stupid and shouldn"t follow the agreement of the constitution because they aren"t lawyers on the subject.

Just because people who believe the bible don"t know it cover to cover doesn"t make them incorrect for believing what it says. Nor does it make the scriptures any less true.

You redacted this!
I have asked incessantly for a believer to define why they consider the bible to be the word of god and why it is the be all and end all of christianity.
And nobody has been capable of telling me.
Wanna try?
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
ThinkFirst
Posts: 1,391
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10/14/2014 11:09:54 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/14/2014 9:21:21 AM, LifeMeansGodIsGood wrote:
At 10/13/2014 11:27:55 AM, bulproof wrote:
Many christians claim that their god is both merciful and just, they also claim that their god is not vindictive and doesn't hold a grudge. They claim that he does not visit the sins of the father upon the sons.

I wonder then can anyone explain these passages, which clearly claim that god will do PRECISELY that.

:QUOTES

Exodus 34:7 ESV /

So atheism is a religious discussion, and that is why you come to the religion forum, to attack all religion?

Atheism is the rejection of your religious assertions. Your religious assertions (the idiocy that you have accepted as truth) are the basis for how you believe we should all live. This becomes a RELIGION, when it is organized, in any way. Yes, we come to religious forums to attack the IDEAS engendered by religious beliefs. Until such time as humans no longer cling, tenaciously, to unsound and irrational beliefs (and try to legislate those beliefs), we will not cease. We (atheists/agnostics) have grown weary of the petulant assertions of the deluded and superstitious being a ball and chain on the growth potential of the human species. We have grown weary of having the clerical segment of our cultures assert their "moral" constructs into our lives. We are weary of the subjection of reason and logic to delusion and superstition. We have grown weary of watching the hard work of those who seek truth in reality sacrificed upon the altar dedicated to the irrational fears of those who refuse to accept reality, and seek to retreat into the fantasy world created by stupid books that make unrealistic promises based of fallacious inventions of ancient and superstitious fools. We are sick and tired of the all-consuming malevolence of the religious rulers that have infected the minds of the masses with the emotional and intellectual weakness that are direct symptoms of accepting such ridiculous assertions as are made by these completely retarded ancient manuscripts, completely devoid of any true human moral value.

Humanity will become truly free, only what all ancient stupidity has been flushed from the memory of a single, united, rational human race.
"Never attribute to villainy that which can be adequately explained by stupidity"
-----
"Men rarely if ever dream up a god superior to themselves. Most gods have the manners and morals of a spoiled child. "

-- Robert A Heinlein
ThinkFirst
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10/14/2014 12:02:07 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/14/2014 10:41:28 AM, 12_13 wrote:
At 10/13/2014 3:34:35 PM, irreverent_god wrote:
"...visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me..."

What part of that even IMPLIES that the childres (to the third and fourth generation) even committed any sin? Nothing. Children, biblically speaking, are guilty by birth, and punished for it.

People who hate God live against his will and sin. So, if the children hate God, then they get what is wage of sin by sins that they have made.

People who hate stupidity live against biblical teachings and superstitious people call it sin.So, if the humans hate the bible, then they conflict with those who accept the bible and are generally denigrated by them, unjustly. Those of us who reject ancient manuscripts, and the deluded stupidity contained within it are generalized by those who accept it as being "without morals." The false belief that morals come from this book, created, selected, and imposed on humanity by a bunch of degenerate clergy is "holy" robes makes people like you look down your nose at people like us. I must, however, pose these questions:

Is my belief that murder is wrong less valid than yours because it was reasoned, rather than accepted, from your book?
Is my belief that infanticide is wrong less valid than yours because it was reasoned, rather than accepted, from your book?
Is my belief that marital infidelity is wrong less valid than yours because it was reasoned, rather than accepted, from your book?
Is my belief that theft is wrong less valid than yours because it was reasoned, rather than accepted, from your book?
Is my belief that slavery is wrong less valid than yours because it was reasoned, rather than accepted, from your book?
Is my belief that human trafficking is wrong less valid than yours because it was reasoned, rather than accepted, from your book?
Is my belief that child abuse is wrong less valid than yours because it was reasoned, rather than accepted, from your book?
Is my belief that beating my wife is wrong less valid than yours because it was reasoned, rather than accepted, from your book?
Is my belief that rape is wrong less valid than yours because it was reasoned, rather than accepted, from your book?
Is my belief that genocide is wrong less valid than yours because it was reasoned, rather than accepted, from your book?

In fact, many of the atrocities listed above are actually SUPPORTED by your beloved book. They are not condemned but, rather, ORDERED in several places. Before you go condemning, in blanket form, an entire group of people, get to know something about them.
You assume we hate your deity. We don't believe he exists. Do you think we are irrational enough to direct hatred at a void?
You assume that we "sin." Can you qualify or quantify how we "sin?" Which sins, specifically do we commit? How is it sinful? Why have you assumed that we commit these sins, without actually knowing a single one of us?
You assume everything that is entailed in every bit of every statement you make, and you have absolutely no basis on which to make a single one of those statements. In short, you are speaking presumptuously, straight out of meaningless assertion, based on what your preacher/rabbi/reverend/bishop/priest/deacon/elder/minister has put into your head. How do I know this? Because having read the things that you write, and the way you construct your sentences, it is clear that you have very little clue as to what is actually written in the bible, and have a tendency to regurgitate many of the "tagline" phrases that are generally spouted by uneducated and illiterate christian people. People who know the least usually say the most, and are most adamant in their proclamations. In the immortal words of Confucius:

Big mouth and small brain often found....together.
"Never attribute to villainy that which can be adequately explained by stupidity"
-----
"Men rarely if ever dream up a god superior to themselves. Most gods have the manners and morals of a spoiled child. "

-- Robert A Heinlein
ThinkFirst
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10/14/2014 12:08:52 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Correction: Humanity will become truly free, only when all ancient stupidity has been flushed from the memory of a single, united, rational human race.
"Never attribute to villainy that which can be adequately explained by stupidity"
-----
"Men rarely if ever dream up a god superior to themselves. Most gods have the manners and morals of a spoiled child. "

-- Robert A Heinlein
irreverent_god
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10/14/2014 1:36:41 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/14/2014 10:41:28 AM, 12_13 wrote:
At 10/13/2014 3:34:35 PM, irreverent_god wrote:
"...visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me..."

What part of that even IMPLIES that the childres (to the third and fourth generation) even committed any sin? Nothing. Children, biblically speaking, are guilty by birth, and punished for it.

People who hate God live against his will and sin. So, if the children hate God, then they get what is wage of sin by sins that they have made.

I read down below that ThinkFirst has already replied to this. I don't think that I could offer any reply to you that would not make any part of that post redundant. I will, instead, simply suggest that you read Post #24. After that, simply close your "mouth" and walk away, because there is really very little that you can offer that would require much of an effort to swat down like the intellectual gnat your posts seem to imply.
Logic and Reason are the precursor to Justice.
Faith and zealotry are the precursor to Folly.
12_13
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10/15/2014 4:10:13 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/14/2014 12:02:07 PM, ThinkFirst wrote:
At 10/14/2014 10:41:28 AM, 12_13 wrote:
At 10/13/2014 3:34:35 PM, irreverent_god wrote:
"...visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me..."

What part of that even IMPLIES that the childres (to the third and fourth generation) even committed any sin? Nothing. Children, biblically speaking, are guilty by birth, and punished for it.

People who hate God live against his will and sin. So, if the children hate God, then they get what is wage of sin by sins that they have made.

People who hate stupidity live against biblical teachings and superstitious people call it sin....

Nice opinion you have. However I think you didn"t understand my point. The point was, No one is punished because of acts that someone else did. All are punished by what they did. If person do same wrong act as his father (sins of his father), he will be punished by the same sins that his father also did.
ThinkFirst
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10/15/2014 4:25:21 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/15/2014 4:10:13 PM, 12_13 wrote:
At 10/14/2014 12:02:07 PM, ThinkFirst wrote:
At 10/14/2014 10:41:28 AM, 12_13 wrote:
At 10/13/2014 3:34:35 PM, irreverent_god wrote:
"...visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me..."

What part of that even IMPLIES that the childres (to the third and fourth generation) even committed any sin? Nothing. Children, biblically speaking, are guilty by birth, and punished for it.

People who hate God live against his will and sin. So, if the children hate God, then they get what is wage of sin by sins that they have made.

People who hate stupidity live against biblical teachings and superstitious people call it sin....

Nice opinion you have.

As opposed to the "FACT" that you spewed, above?

However I think you didn"t understand my point.

I do understand your point. You are also attributing MOTIVATION to the decisions of people whom you've never met, and basing it on the biblical stupidity that you have accepted as axiomatic.

The point was, No one is punished because of acts that someone else did.

According to your bible, the ENTIRE HUMAN RACE is punished due to acts committed by ancestry.

All are punished by what they did.

Punished by whom? In accordance with what laws? By what measure? Judged to be guilty by what court? This is an empty assertion.

If person do same wrong act as his father (sins of his father), he will be punished by the same sins that his father also did.

But this is not what the bible states. According to the bible, a person will be "punished by the same sins that his father also did," whether the child commits them, or not. According to the bible, the second, third, and fourth generations are punished BECAUSE of the "sins" of the first generation. There are no exceptions of caveats listed. Your argument is in direct contradiction to the words of the bible. Period.
"Never attribute to villainy that which can be adequately explained by stupidity"
-----
"Men rarely if ever dream up a god superior to themselves. Most gods have the manners and morals of a spoiled child. "

-- Robert A Heinlein
12_13
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10/16/2014 1:51:31 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/15/2014 4:25:21 PM, ThinkFirst wrote:
At 10/15/2014 4:10:13 PM, 12_13 wrote:
At 10/14/2014 12:02:07 PM, ThinkFirst wrote:
At 10/14/2014 10:41:28 AM, 12_13 wrote:
At 10/13/2014 3:34:35 PM, irreverent_god wrote:
"...visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me..."

What part of that even IMPLIES that the childres (to the third and fourth generation) even committed any sin? Nothing. Children, biblically speaking, are guilty by birth, and punished for it.

At 10/15/2014 4:25:21 PM, ThinkFirst wrote:
But this is not what the bible states. According to the bible, a person will be "punished by the same sins that his father also did," whether the child commits them, or not. According to the bible, the second, third, and fourth generations are punished BECAUSE of the "sins" of the first generation. There are no exceptions of caveats listed. Your argument is in direct contradiction to the words of the bible. Period.

I think you just don't understand it. It does not mean that person is judged because of what someone else did. They are "punished" because they did sins of their fathers.
ThinkFirst
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10/16/2014 3:19:00 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/16/2014 1:51:31 PM, 12_13 wrote:
At 10/15/2014 4:25:21 PM, ThinkFirst wrote:
At 10/15/2014 4:10:13 PM, 12_13 wrote:
At 10/14/2014 12:02:07 PM, ThinkFirst wrote:
At 10/14/2014 10:41:28 AM, 12_13 wrote:
At 10/13/2014 3:34:35 PM, irreverent_god wrote:
"...visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me..."

What part of that even IMPLIES that the childres (to the third and fourth generation) even committed any sin? Nothing. Children, biblically speaking, are guilty by birth, and punished for it.

At 10/15/2014 4:25:21 PM, ThinkFirst wrote:
But this is not what the bible states. According to the bible, a person will be "punished by the same sins that his father also did," whether the child commits them, or not. According to the bible, the second, third, and fourth generations are punished BECAUSE of the "sins" of the first generation. There are no exceptions of caveats listed. Your argument is in direct contradiction to the words of the bible. Period.

I think you just don't understand it. It does not mean that person is judged because of what someone else did. They are "punished" because they did sins of their fathers.

I'm pretty sure it's you whose understanding is diminished. Without the typical christian "context" or "interpretation," none of the bible could be tolerated, even by christians. Overall, they have become very adept at finding ways that their "sacred" text does NOT actually MEAN what it says... It says what christians MEAN, right? At least at that moment...
"Never attribute to villainy that which can be adequately explained by stupidity"
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"Men rarely if ever dream up a god superior to themselves. Most gods have the manners and morals of a spoiled child. "

-- Robert A Heinlein