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If God Knows Everything...

RoyalAries
Posts: 43
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10/14/2014 10:09:05 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
If God knows everything, why would he even create this universe in the first place? Why would he create us, knowing we would fall, and knowing he would have to sacrifice his "Son" to save us ?
"If you tell the truth, you don't have to remember anything. -Mark Twain

"In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and is widely regarded as a bad move." - Douglas Adams

"Science has proof without any certainty. Creationists have certainty without any proof."
- Ashley Montague

"You laugh at me because I'm different. I laugh at you because you're all the same." Unknown
bulproof
Posts: 25,227
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10/14/2014 10:10:39 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/14/2014 10:09:05 AM, RoyalAries wrote:
If God knows everything, why would he even create this universe in the first place? Why would he create us, knowing we would fall, and knowing he would have to sacrifice his "Son" to save us ?

They won't get it. Sorry.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
DPMartin
Posts: 1,096
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10/14/2014 10:29:21 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/14/2014 10:09:05 AM, RoyalAries wrote:
If God knows everything, why would he even create this universe in the first place? Why would he create us, knowing we would fall, and knowing he would have to sacrifice his "Son" to save us ?

That is about as intelligent as asking if some one knows every thing about building a house for himself knowing the out come and the result of what it would take to do it, and why should they do it.

Men are the ones with the problem of God, God doesn"t have a problem.
bulproof
Posts: 25,227
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10/14/2014 10:32:51 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/14/2014 10:29:21 AM, DPMartin wrote:
At 10/14/2014 10:09:05 AM, RoyalAries wrote:
If God knows everything, why would he even create this universe in the first place? Why would he create us, knowing we would fall, and knowing he would have to sacrifice his "Son" to save us ?


That is about as intelligent as asking if some one knows every thing about building a house for himself knowing the out come and the result of what it would take to do it, and why should they do it.

Men are the ones with the problem of God, God doesn"t have a problem.

Nice to see I was right. Not that I had any doubt.
Does your GOD know everything?
Can you answer that question HONESTLY?
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
RoderickSpode
Posts: 2,373
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10/14/2014 10:49:46 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/14/2014 10:09:05 AM, RoyalAries wrote:
If God knows everything, why would he even create this universe in the first place? Why would he create us, knowing we would fall, and knowing he would have to sacrifice his "Son" to save us ?
The significant statement here is your reference to God knowing everything. The problem (if we can call it that) is that we (humans) don't know everything. And that's a problem with a number of quotes atheists and agnostics use like

"Science has proof without any certainty. Creationists have certainty without any proof."

because they are in a sense claiming to have certainty on issues like creationism.

The God of the Bible created time, therefore He is not subject to time like we are. This is something none of us could possibly understand. Your concept of knowing what is going to happen in the future is still based on your limited understanding of time. If someone bound in between the realm of time could somehow see into the future, and knew that if he got on highway X instead of highway Y he would be delayed 4 hours due to a massive traffic jam due to an oil spill, it would be logical for him to take highway Y. But when we're talking about a creator not bound by time, we're not talking about a soothsayer who makes decisions based on circumstances foreseen in the future.
12_13
Posts: 1,361
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10/14/2014 11:08:52 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/14/2014 10:09:05 AM, RoyalAries wrote:
If God knows everything, why would he even create this universe in the first place? Why would he create us, knowing we would fall, and knowing he would have to sacrifice his "Son" to save us ?

Maybe the reason is that God loves also those who hate him and therefore wanted to give opportunity also for them so that they can prove why eternal life should not be given to them, but only for righteous.

But I tell you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who mistreat you and persecute you, that you may be children of your Father who is in heaven. For he makes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the just and the unjust.
Mat. 5:44-45
RoyalAries
Posts: 43
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10/14/2014 11:13:25 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/14/2014 10:49:46 AM, RoderickSpode wrote:
At 10/14/2014 10:09:05 AM, RoyalAries wrote:
If God knows everything, why would he even create this universe in the first place? Why would he create us, knowing we would fall, and knowing he would have to sacrifice his "Son" to save us ?
The significant statement here is your reference to God knowing everything. The problem (if we can call it that) is that we (humans) don't know everything. And that's a problem with a number of quotes atheists and agnostics use like

"Science has proof without any certainty. Creationists have certainty without any proof."

because they are in a sense claiming to have certainty on issues like creationism.

The God of the Bible created time, therefore He is not subject to time like we are. This is something none of us could possibly understand. Your concept of knowing what is going to happen in the future is still based on your limited understanding of time. If someone bound in between the realm of time could somehow see into the future, and knew that if he got on highway X instead of highway Y he would be delayed 4 hours due to a massive traffic jam due to an oil spill, it would be logical for him to take highway Y. But when we're talking about a creator not bound by time, we're not talking about a soothsayer who makes decisions based on circumstances foreseen in the future.

I agree that if God created time then we are bound by concepts of time. However; would not God choose the choice that allowed sin to never happen and only have Satan and his angels sit in "Sheol".
"If you tell the truth, you don't have to remember anything. -Mark Twain

"In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and is widely regarded as a bad move." - Douglas Adams

"Science has proof without any certainty. Creationists have certainty without any proof."
- Ashley Montague

"You laugh at me because I'm different. I laugh at you because you're all the same." Unknown
RoderickSpode
Posts: 2,373
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10/14/2014 11:15:40 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/14/2014 11:13:25 AM, RoyalAries wrote:
At 10/14/2014 10:49:46 AM, RoderickSpode wrote:
At 10/14/2014 10:09:05 AM, RoyalAries wrote:
If God knows everything, why would he even create this universe in the first place? Why would he create us, knowing we would fall, and knowing he would have to sacrifice his "Son" to save us ?
The significant statement here is your reference to God knowing everything. The problem (if we can call it that) is that we (humans) don't know everything. And that's a problem with a number of quotes atheists and agnostics use like

"Science has proof without any certainty. Creationists have certainty without any proof."

because they are in a sense claiming to have certainty on issues like creationism.

The God of the Bible created time, therefore He is not subject to time like we are. This is something none of us could possibly understand. Your concept of knowing what is going to happen in the future is still based on your limited understanding of time. If someone bound in between the realm of time could somehow see into the future, and knew that if he got on highway X instead of highway Y he would be delayed 4 hours due to a massive traffic jam due to an oil spill, it would be logical for him to take highway Y. But when we're talking about a creator not bound by time, we're not talking about a soothsayer who makes decisions based on circumstances foreseen in the future.

I agree that if God created time then we are bound by concepts of time. However; would not God choose the choice that allowed sin to never happen and only have Satan and his angels sit in "Sheol".
What choice are you referring to?
RoyalAries
Posts: 43
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10/14/2014 11:16:40 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/14/2014 11:08:52 AM, 12_13 wrote:
At 10/14/2014 10:09:05 AM, RoyalAries wrote:
If God knows everything, why would he even create this universe in the first place? Why would he create us, knowing we would fall, and knowing he would have to sacrifice his "Son" to save us ?

Maybe the reason is that God loves also those who hate him and therefore wanted to give opportunity also for them so that they can prove why eternal life should not be given to them, but only for righteous.

But I tell you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who mistreat you and persecute you, that you may be children of your Father who is in heaven. For he makes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the just and the unjust.
Mat. 5:44-45

Potentially. However, God is "pure" and "cannot stand in the presence of sinners". Therefore it would reason that he would avoid sin and creating a hole for satan to use to destroy God's creation.
"If you tell the truth, you don't have to remember anything. -Mark Twain

"In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and is widely regarded as a bad move." - Douglas Adams

"Science has proof without any certainty. Creationists have certainty without any proof."
- Ashley Montague

"You laugh at me because I'm different. I laugh at you because you're all the same." Unknown
RoyalAries
Posts: 43
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10/14/2014 11:18:01 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/14/2014 11:15:40 AM, RoderickSpode wrote:
At 10/14/2014 11:13:25 AM, RoyalAries wrote:
At 10/14/2014 10:49:46 AM, RoderickSpode wrote:
At 10/14/2014 10:09:05 AM, RoyalAries wrote:
If God knows everything, why would he even create this universe in the first place? Why would he create us, knowing we would fall, and knowing he would have to sacrifice his "Son" to save us ?
The significant statement here is your reference to God knowing everything. The problem (if we can call it that) is that we (humans) don't know everything. And that's a problem with a number of quotes atheists and agnostics use like

"Science has proof without any certainty. Creationists have certainty without any proof."

because they are in a sense claiming to have certainty on issues like creationism.

The God of the Bible created time, therefore He is not subject to time like we are. This is something none of us could possibly understand. Your concept of knowing what is going to happen in the future is still based on your limited understanding of time. If someone bound in between the realm of time could somehow see into the future, and knew that if he got on highway X instead of highway Y he would be delayed 4 hours due to a massive traffic jam due to an oil spill, it would be logical for him to take highway Y. But when we're talking about a creator not bound by time, we're not talking about a soothsayer who makes decisions based on circumstances foreseen in the future.

I agree that if God created time then we are bound by concepts of time. However; would not God choose the choice that allowed sin to never happen and only have Satan and his angels sit in "Sheol".
What choice are you referring to?

Creating the universe.
"If you tell the truth, you don't have to remember anything. -Mark Twain

"In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and is widely regarded as a bad move." - Douglas Adams

"Science has proof without any certainty. Creationists have certainty without any proof."
- Ashley Montague

"You laugh at me because I'm different. I laugh at you because you're all the same." Unknown
RoderickSpode
Posts: 2,373
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10/14/2014 11:20:05 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/14/2014 11:18:01 AM, RoyalAries wrote:
At 10/14/2014 11:15:40 AM, RoderickSpode wrote:
At 10/14/2014 11:13:25 AM, RoyalAries wrote:
At 10/14/2014 10:49:46 AM, RoderickSpode wrote:
At 10/14/2014 10:09:05 AM, RoyalAries wrote:
If God knows everything, why would he even create this universe in the first place? Why would he create us, knowing we would fall, and knowing he would have to sacrifice his "Son" to save us ?
The significant statement here is your reference to God knowing everything. The problem (if we can call it that) is that we (humans) don't know everything. And that's a problem with a number of quotes atheists and agnostics use like

"Science has proof without any certainty. Creationists have certainty without any proof."

because they are in a sense claiming to have certainty on issues like creationism.

The God of the Bible created time, therefore He is not subject to time like we are. This is something none of us could possibly understand. Your concept of knowing what is going to happen in the future is still based on your limited understanding of time. If someone bound in between the realm of time could somehow see into the future, and knew that if he got on highway X instead of highway Y he would be delayed 4 hours due to a massive traffic jam due to an oil spill, it would be logical for him to take highway Y. But when we're talking about a creator not bound by time, we're not talking about a soothsayer who makes decisions based on circumstances foreseen in the future.

I agree that if God created time then we are bound by concepts of time. However; would not God choose the choice that allowed sin to never happen and only have Satan and his angels sit in "Sheol".
What choice are you referring to?

Creating the universe.
You mean choose not to create mankind at all? Just want to make sure I understand you.
RoyalAries
Posts: 43
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10/14/2014 11:29:52 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/14/2014 11:20:05 AM, RoderickSpode wrote:
At 10/14/2014 11:18:01 AM, RoyalAries wrote:
At 10/14/2014 11:15:40 AM, RoderickSpode wrote:
At 10/14/2014 11:13:25 AM, RoyalAries wrote:
At 10/14/2014 10:49:46 AM, RoderickSpode wrote:
At 10/14/2014 10:09:05 AM, RoyalAries wrote:
If God knows everything, why would he even create this universe in the first place? Why would he create us, knowing we would fall, and knowing he would have to sacrifice his "Son" to save us ?
The significant statement here is your reference to God knowing everything. The problem (if we can call it that) is that we (humans) don't know everything. And that's a problem with a number of quotes atheists and agnostics use like

"Science has proof without any certainty. Creationists have certainty without any proof."

because they are in a sense claiming to have certainty on issues like creationism.

The God of the Bible created time, therefore He is not subject to time like we are. This is something none of us could possibly understand. Your concept of knowing what is going to happen in the future is still based on your limited understanding of time. If someone bound in between the realm of time could somehow see into the future, and knew that if he got on highway X instead of highway Y he would be delayed 4 hours due to a massive traffic jam due to an oil spill, it would be logical for him to take highway Y. But when we're talking about a creator not bound by time, we're not talking about a soothsayer who makes decisions based on circumstances foreseen in the future.

I agree that if God created time then we are bound by concepts of time. However; would not God choose the choice that allowed sin to never happen and only have Satan and his angels sit in "Sheol".
What choice are you referring to?

Creating the universe.
You mean choose not to create mankind at all? Just want to make sure I understand you.

Yes. If it was known to God that there would be sin, that people would hate him, reject him, and curse him, would it be worth it just to have a small number of Christians up in heaven?
"If you tell the truth, you don't have to remember anything. -Mark Twain

"In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and is widely regarded as a bad move." - Douglas Adams

"Science has proof without any certainty. Creationists have certainty without any proof."
- Ashley Montague

"You laugh at me because I'm different. I laugh at you because you're all the same." Unknown
RoderickSpode
Posts: 2,373
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10/14/2014 11:34:03 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/14/2014 11:29:52 AM, RoyalAries wrote:
At 10/14/2014 11:20:05 AM, RoderickSpode wrote:
At 10/14/2014 11:18:01 AM, RoyalAries wrote:
At 10/14/2014 11:15:40 AM, RoderickSpode wrote:
At 10/14/2014 11:13:25 AM, RoyalAries wrote:
At 10/14/2014 10:49:46 AM, RoderickSpode wrote:
At 10/14/2014 10:09:05 AM, RoyalAries wrote:
If God knows everything, why would he even create this universe in the first place? Why would he create us, knowing we would fall, and knowing he would have to sacrifice his "Son" to save us ?
The significant statement here is your reference to God knowing everything. The problem (if we can call it that) is that we (humans) don't know everything. And that's a problem with a number of quotes atheists and agnostics use like

"Science has proof without any certainty. Creationists have certainty without any proof."

because they are in a sense claiming to have certainty on issues like creationism.

The God of the Bible created time, therefore He is not subject to time like we are. This is something none of us could possibly understand. Your concept of knowing what is going to happen in the future is still based on your limited understanding of time. If someone bound in between the realm of time could somehow see into the future, and knew that if he got on highway X instead of highway Y he would be delayed 4 hours due to a massive traffic jam due to an oil spill, it would be logical for him to take highway Y. But when we're talking about a creator not bound by time, we're not talking about a soothsayer who makes decisions based on circumstances foreseen in the future.

I agree that if God created time then we are bound by concepts of time. However; would not God choose the choice that allowed sin to never happen and only have Satan and his angels sit in "Sheol".
What choice are you referring to?

Creating the universe.
You mean choose not to create mankind at all? Just want to make sure I understand you.

Yes. If it was known to God that there would be sin, that people would hate him, reject him, and curse him, would it be worth it just to have a small number of Christians up in heaven?
It certainly would be worth it to Christians. And apparently it's worth it to God. The question would be, why would anyone hate, reject and curse God?
LifeMeansGodIsGood
Posts: 2,744
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10/14/2014 11:36:43 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/14/2014 10:09:05 AM, RoyalAries wrote:
If God knows everything, why would he even create this universe in the first place? Why would he create us, knowing we would fall, and knowing he would have to sacrifice his "Son" to save us ?

If God knows everything, He knows what you have done, what you have desired to do, what you do desire to do, He knows what you have said, thought, and imagined....and you are in trouble. Let's hope God does not know everything, right?
LifeMeansGodIsGood
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10/14/2014 11:41:03 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/14/2014 10:09:05 AM, RoyalAries wrote:
If God knows everything, why would he even create this universe in the first place? Why would he create us, knowing we would fall, and knowing he would have to sacrifice his "Son" to save us ?

He created all things for His pleasure, and He knew that some of his creatures would rebell against Him and He would have to suffer to save His creation for Himself . God wants to enjoy you forever, not argue with you forever. He will not argue with you forever, and He cannot enjoy you if you are arguing against Him.
mortsdor
Posts: 1,181
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10/14/2014 11:44:55 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/14/2014 10:09:05 AM, RoyalAries wrote:
If God knows everything, why would he even create this universe in the first place? Why would he create us, knowing we would fall, and knowing he would have to sacrifice his "Son" to save us ?

Because complete and utter perfection isn't good enough.

and Love, Clearly. God is Love.

so he needs to create imperfect things to then stamp out, send those who won't give themselves up to His will to Eternal Hell, and then Subsume the rest back into himself/his will.
mortsdor
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10/14/2014 11:48:16 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
This way you start with perfection, create a bunch of suffering,

and then end up with:
Perfection
+ slaves to perfection
+ eternal torment for those unwilling to stamp out their own wills.
ThinkFirst
Posts: 1,391
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10/14/2014 12:42:14 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/14/2014 10:29:21 AM, DPMartin wrote:
At 10/14/2014 10:09:05 AM, RoyalAries wrote:
If God knows everything, why would he even create this universe in the first place? Why would he create us, knowing we would fall, and knowing he would have to sacrifice his "Son" to save us ?


That is about as intelligent as asking if some one knows every thing about building a house for himself knowing the out come and the result of what it would take to do it, and why should they do it.

Men are the ones with the problem of God, God doesn"t have a problem.

No, it isn't. These two questions aren't even on the same level of intelligence. They aren't even remotely similar. Nothing that does not exist can have a problem. Men exist. Men have problems. Your deity does not exist. There are no problems for your deity, but this poses many problems, for you. Not the least of these is the problem of reconciling reality with the assertions and commands of the manuscript around which you have obviously formulated your "life plan."
"Never attribute to villainy that which can be adequately explained by stupidity"
-----
"Men rarely if ever dream up a god superior to themselves. Most gods have the manners and morals of a spoiled child. "

-- Robert A Heinlein
ThinkFirst
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10/14/2014 12:48:59 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/14/2014 10:49:46 AM, RoderickSpode wrote:
At 10/14/2014 10:09:05 AM, RoyalAries wrote:
If God knows everything, why would he even create this universe in the first place? Why would he create us, knowing we would fall, and knowing he would have to sacrifice his "Son" to save us ?
The significant statement here is your reference to God knowing everything. The problem (if we can call it that) is that we (humans) don't know everything. And that's a problem with a number of quotes atheists and agnostics use like

"Science has proof without any certainty. Creationists have certainty without any proof."

because they are in a sense claiming to have certainty on issues like creationism.

That's because we are certain that creationism, as defined by the bible and those who believe it, does not make any sense. We are equally certain that it does not align with reality, as we currently understand it.

The God of the Bible created time, therefore He is not subject to time like we are. This is something none of us could possibly understand.

How can one POSSIBLY assert something they are not capable of understanding?

Your concept of knowing what is going to happen in the future is still based on your limited understanding of time.

Do you have a different understanding of time? Or do you simply assert that it does not fit you current understanding, but you accept it, anyway?

If someone bound in between the realm of time could somehow see into the future, and knew that if he got on highway X instead of highway Y he would be delayed 4 hours due to a massive traffic jam due to an oil spill, it would be logical for him to take highway Y.

Why would said logic apply any less to a deity than to a lowly human?

But when we're talking about a creator not bound by time, we're not talking about a soothsayer who makes decisions based on circumstances foreseen in the future.

What then, precisely, ARE we talking about? How is advance knowledge of folly logically reconcilable with moving forward with such folly, anyway?
"Never attribute to villainy that which can be adequately explained by stupidity"
-----
"Men rarely if ever dream up a god superior to themselves. Most gods have the manners and morals of a spoiled child. "

-- Robert A Heinlein
ethang5
Posts: 4,104
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10/14/2014 12:52:35 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/14/2014 10:09:05 AM, RoyalAries wrote:
If God knows everything, why would he even create this universe in the first place?

Sorry. Why wouldn't He? You seem to think the reason is evident to all.

Why would he create us, knowing we would fall, and knowing he would have to sacrifice his "Son" to save us ?

Why marry knowing you or your spouse will die? Why have a kid knowing you or the kid will die?

God saw that our fall would not be the end of the story. The story ends in joy and peace. And through it all we get to keep free will, which makes our choice to love Him meaningful, to us and to Him.

He was willing to suffer the cross so that He could be with us in love.
debateuser
Posts: 1,094
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10/14/2014 1:17:55 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/14/2014 10:09:05 AM, RoyalAries wrote:
If God knows everything, why would he even create this universe in the first place? Why would he create us, knowing we would fall, and knowing he would have to sacrifice his "Son" to save us ?

The real question is that if God is all powerful or omnipotent then why would he have needs such as worship. Seems like that the alleged God is a slave to his needs.
Scientific Errors In Religion : Atheists are right that religion is a myth

Read this topic on below link:

http://www.debate.org...
debate_power
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10/14/2014 1:18:25 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/14/2014 10:09:05 AM, RoyalAries wrote:
If God knows everything, why would he even create this universe in the first place? Why would he create us, knowing we would fall, and knowing he would have to sacrifice his "Son" to save us ?

Does there need to be a reason for it? What reason is there for the universe? God had as much reason as science professes to have.
You can call me Mark if you like.
ThinkFirst
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10/14/2014 1:44:13 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/14/2014 12:52:35 PM, ethang5 wrote:
At 10/14/2014 10:09:05 AM, RoyalAries wrote:
If God knows everything, why would he even create this universe in the first place?

Sorry. Why wouldn't He? You seem to think the reason is evident to all.

There is no reason, evident to anyone.

Why would he create us, knowing we would fall, and knowing he would have to sacrifice his "Son" to save us ?

Why marry knowing you or your spouse will die? Why have a kid knowing you or the kid will die?

As humans, we accept this as an inevitable truth. For those who wish to replicate, their reasons are their own.

God saw that our fall would not be the end of the story. The story ends in joy and peace. And through it all we get to keep free will, which makes our choice to love Him meaningful, to us and to Him.

Good thing you used the honest descriptor of "story." Yes, it ends in "joy and peace," just like most other fairy tales. And where did you read that those that are "saved" get to keep their free will?

He was willing to suffer the cross so that He could be with us in love.

Excerpt from the fairy tale.
"Never attribute to villainy that which can be adequately explained by stupidity"
-----
"Men rarely if ever dream up a god superior to themselves. Most gods have the manners and morals of a spoiled child. "

-- Robert A Heinlein
RoyalAries
Posts: 43
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10/14/2014 1:47:35 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/14/2014 12:52:35 PM, ethang5 wrote:
At 10/14/2014 10:09:05 AM, RoyalAries wrote:
If God knows everything, why would he even create this universe in the first place?

Sorry. Why wouldn't He? You seem to think the reason is evident to all.

Why would he create us, knowing we would fall, and knowing he would have to sacrifice his "Son" to save us ?

Why marry knowing you or your spouse will die? Why have a kid knowing you or the kid will die?

But we know our spouse exists. We cannot prove God exists though. God existing is as physically provable as the Big Bang.

God saw that our fall would not be the end of the story. The story ends in joy and peace. And through it all we get to keep free will, which makes our choice to love Him meaningful, to us and to Him.

He was willing to suffer the cross so that He could be with us in love.

But why not just take away free will? If God is everything why give us free will? Why not us just be before God all the time and take away our capacity to choose otherwise
"If you tell the truth, you don't have to remember anything. -Mark Twain

"In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and is widely regarded as a bad move." - Douglas Adams

"Science has proof without any certainty. Creationists have certainty without any proof."
- Ashley Montague

"You laugh at me because I'm different. I laugh at you because you're all the same." Unknown
RoyalAries
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10/14/2014 1:50:39 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/14/2014 11:34:03 AM, RoderickSpode wrote:
At 10/14/2014 11:29:52 AM, RoyalAries wrote:
At 10/14/2014 11:20:05 AM, RoderickSpode wrote:
At 10/14/2014 11:18:01 AM, RoyalAries wrote:
At 10/14/2014 11:15:40 AM, RoderickSpode wrote:
At 10/14/2014 11:13:25 AM, RoyalAries wrote:
At 10/14/2014 10:49:46 AM, RoderickSpode wrote:
At 10/14/2014 10:09:05 AM, RoyalAries wrote:
If God knows everything, why would he even create this universe in the first place? Why would he create us, knowing we would fall, and knowing he would have to sacrifice his "Son" to save us ?
The significant statement here is your reference to God knowing everything. The problem (if we can call it that) is that we (humans) don't know everything. And that's a problem with a number of quotes atheists and agnostics use like

"Science has proof without any certainty. Creationists have certainty without any proof."

because they are in a sense claiming to have certainty on issues like creationism.

The God of the Bible created time, therefore He is not subject to time like we are. This is something none of us could possibly understand. Your concept of knowing what is going to happen in the future is still based on your limited understanding of time. If someone bound in between the realm of time could somehow see into the future, and knew that if he got on highway X instead of highway Y he would be delayed 4 hours due to a massive traffic jam due to an oil spill, it would be logical for him to take highway Y. But when we're talking about a creator not bound by time, we're not talking about a soothsayer who makes decisions based on circumstances foreseen in the future.

I agree that if God created time then we are bound by concepts of time. However; would not God choose the choice that allowed sin to never happen and only have Satan and his angels sit in "Sheol".
What choice are you referring to?

Creating the universe.
You mean choose not to create mankind at all? Just want to make sure I understand you.

Yes. If it was known to God that there would be sin, that people would hate him, reject him, and curse him, would it be worth it just to have a small number of Christians up in heaven?
It certainly would be worth it to Christians. And apparently it's worth it to God. The question would be, why would anyone hate, reject and curse God?

But there is no proof God exists. People either come to the position that God doesn't exist, or God exists, but has done nothing for them so why give back to someone who's never given ?
"If you tell the truth, you don't have to remember anything. -Mark Twain

"In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and is widely regarded as a bad move." - Douglas Adams

"Science has proof without any certainty. Creationists have certainty without any proof."
- Ashley Montague

"You laugh at me because I'm different. I laugh at you because you're all the same." Unknown
ethang5
Posts: 4,104
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10/14/2014 2:06:18 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/14/2014 1:44:13 PM, ThinkFirst wrote:
At 10/14/2014 12:52:35 PM, ethang5 wrote:
At 10/14/2014 10:09:05 AM, RoyalAries wrote:

If God knows everything, why would he even create this universe in the first place?

Sorry. Why wouldn't He? You seem to think the reason is evident to all.

There is no reason, evident to anyone.

Then he should not write as if there is.

Why would he create us, knowing we would fall, and knowing he would have to sacrifice his "Son" to save us ?

Why marry knowing you or your spouse will die? Why have a kid knowing you or the kid will die?

As humans, we accept this as an inevitable truth. For those who wish to replicate, their reasons are their own.

God's reasons are thus also His own.

God saw that our fall would not be the end of the story. The story ends in joy and peace. And through it all we get to keep free will, which makes our choice to love Him meaningful, to us and to Him.

Good thing you used the honest descriptor of "story."

Honesty tends to be a trait of mine. Be careful of it.

Yes, it ends in "joy and peace," just like most other fairy tales.

Yes, we get your logic-free association. "Every story that ends in Joy is a fairy tale." Does it worry you that this kind of "logic" appeals to only the logic challenged? No?

And where did you read that those that are "saved" get to keep their free will?

I'll give you 3 guesses, and we'll throw out the first two.

He was willing to suffer the cross so that He could be with us in love.

Excerpt from the fairy tale.

Ah yes. Atheist logic. "I don't believe it, so it can't be true." Though I'm sure it's probably fun not to require your conclusions to logically flow from your premises, I'll stick with sense and logic thank you.
ethang5
Posts: 4,104
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10/14/2014 2:13:06 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/14/2014 1:47:35 PM, RoyalAries wrote:
At 10/14/2014 12:52:35 PM, ethang5 wrote:
At 10/14/2014 10:09:05 AM, RoyalAries wrote:
If God knows everything, why would he even create this universe in the first place?

Sorry. Why wouldn't He? You seem to think the reason is evident to all.

Why would he create us, knowing we would fall, and knowing he would have to sacrifice his "Son" to save us ?

Why marry knowing you or your spouse will die? Why have a kid knowing you or the kid will die?

But we know our spouse exists.

The question was, why would God? If there is a God, He would know we existed.

We cannot prove God exists though. God existing is as physically provable as the Big Bang.

I disagree but that is off topic. No one here is trying to prove God exists. The argument works as a purely theoretical exercise too.

God saw that our fall would not be the end of the story. The story ends in joy and peace. And through it all we get to keep free will, which makes our choice to love Him meaningful, to us and to Him.

He was willing to suffer the cross so that He could be with us in love.

But why not just take away free will? If God is everything why give us free will? Why not us just be before God all the time and take away our capacity to choose otherwise

Which would you prefer, that the one you care for freely choose to love you back, or that you make them "love" you with a pill?

If you don't know the answer to this question then you don't know the answer.

Think.
DPMartin
Posts: 1,096
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10/14/2014 3:38:37 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/14/2014 12:42:14 PM, ThinkFirst wrote:
At 10/14/2014 10:29:21 AM, DPMartin wrote:
At 10/14/2014 10:09:05 AM, RoyalAries wrote:
If God knows everything, why would he even create this universe in the first place? Why would he create us, knowing we would fall, and knowing he would have to sacrifice his "Son" to save us ?


That is about as intelligent as asking if some one knows every thing about building a house for himself knowing the out come and the result of what it would take to do it, and why should they do it.

Men are the ones with the problem of God, God doesn"t have a problem.

No, it isn't. These two questions aren't even on the same level of intelligence. They aren't even remotely similar. Nothing that does not exist can have a problem. Men exist. Men have problems. Your deity does not exist. There are no problems for your deity, but this poses many problems, for you. Not the least of these is the problem of reconciling reality with the assertions and commands of the manuscript around which you have obviously formulated your "life plan."

The premise is, "if God knows everything, then". Therefore a presumption of a god, even if its just for the discussion at hand. You have to pay attention then you might get what the thread is about. Doesn"t even matter if what you say is true, though it isn"t, it"s about the subject at hand, that may require some effort in the ability to focus on your part.
ThinkFirst
Posts: 1,391
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10/14/2014 3:46:30 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/14/2014 2:06:18 PM, ethang5 wrote:
At 10/14/2014 1:44:13 PM, ThinkFirst wrote:
At 10/14/2014 12:52:35 PM, ethang5 wrote:
At 10/14/2014 10:09:05 AM, RoyalAries wrote:

If God knows everything, why would he even create this universe in the first place?

Sorry. Why wouldn't He? You seem to think the reason is evident to all.

There is no reason, evident to anyone.

Then he should not write as if there is.

He didn't. In fact, the implication of the post was that there IS NO GOOD REASON.

Why would he create us, knowing we would fall, and knowing he would have to sacrifice his "Son" to save us ?

Why marry knowing you or your spouse will die? Why have a kid knowing you or the kid will die?

As humans, we accept this as an inevitable truth. For those who wish to replicate, their reasons are their own.

God's reasons are thus also His own.

The deity that doesn't exist has no connection with any "reason." This is another implication of the point.

God saw that our fall would not be the end of the story. The story ends in joy and peace. And through it all we get to keep free will, which makes our choice to love Him meaningful, to us and to Him.

Good thing you used the honest descriptor of "story."

Honesty tends to be a trait of mine. Be careful of it.

<Shiver...>

Yes, it ends in "joy and peace," just like most other fairy tales.

Yes, we get your logic-free association. "Every story that ends in Joy is a fairy tale." Does it worry you that this kind of "logic" appeals to only the logic challenged? No?

No, not every story that ends in joy is a fairy tale. MOST fairy tales end in joy and peace. You almost got it right... This was not intended to be "logic." It was simply pointing out that the bible is just like every other fairy tale: FALSE. The bible is just another man-made concoction.

And where did you read that those that are "saved" get to keep their free will?

I'll give you 3 guesses, and we'll throw out the first two.

I've never read any passage that give any indication of keeping free will after the "end of things." Nothing in the bible gives any indication as to whether those resurrected in the fairy tale or those that go to heaven in the fairy tale get to "keep their free will." Nothing.

He was willing to suffer the cross so that He could be with us in love.

Excerpt from the fairy tale.

Ah yes. Atheist logic. "I don't believe it, so it can't be true." Though I'm sure it's probably fun not to require your conclusions to logically flow from your premises, I'll stick with sense and logic thank you.

No, I don't believe it BECAUSE it can't be true. You don't get to reverse the law of cause and effect for me... If you have EVER stuck "with sense and logic," you would not accept the stupidity written in the bible. The bible never has been, is not now, and will never be anything other than the imaginative invention of uneducated and ignorant ancient humans, completely devoid of any advanced knowledge of our universe. Sorry if the truth offends you, but the bible contains more stupidity that one, 8,000 character could possibly cover...
"Never attribute to villainy that which can be adequately explained by stupidity"
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"Men rarely if ever dream up a god superior to themselves. Most gods have the manners and morals of a spoiled child. "

-- Robert A Heinlein
ThinkFirst
Posts: 1,391
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10/14/2014 4:00:32 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/14/2014 3:38:37 PM, DPMartin wrote:
At 10/14/2014 12:42:14 PM, ThinkFirst wrote:
At 10/14/2014 10:29:21 AM, DPMartin wrote:
At 10/14/2014 10:09:05 AM, RoyalAries wrote:
If God knows everything, why would he even create this universe in the first place? Why would he create us, knowing we would fall, and knowing he would have to sacrifice his "Son" to save us ?


That is about as intelligent as asking if some one knows every thing about building a house for himself knowing the out come and the result of what it would take to do it, and why should they do it.

Men are the ones with the problem of God, God doesn"t have a problem.

No, it isn't. These two questions aren't even on the same level of intelligence. They aren't even remotely similar. Nothing that does not exist can have a problem. Men exist. Men have problems. Your deity does not exist. There are no problems for your deity, but this poses many problems, for you. Not the least of these is the problem of reconciling reality with the assertions and commands of the manuscript around which you have obviously formulated your "life plan."


The premise is, "if God knows everything, then". Therefore a presumption of a god, even if its just for the discussion at hand.

But the implication is that this is inductive evidence that your deity DOES NOT exist.

You have to pay attention then you might get what the thread is about.

You're not seriously trying to condescend to me, are you?

Doesn"t even matter if what you say is true, though it isn"t, it"s about the subject at hand, that may require some effort in the ability to focus on your part.

I see that you are, indeed, trying to condescend to me. OK, professor, let's take a look at a couple of things:

1) Do you have any evidence that what I say is untrue?
2) Do you have any evidence that this universe was created, outside of the bible?
3) Did you miss that the "subject at hand" might not have been what you thought it was?
4) Why put so much effort into trying to condescend to your intellectual superiors, when your religious tenets CLAIM that you are supposed to be emulating an individual who regurgitated the ethic of reciprocity (assuming the christ character actually ever existed...)?
"Never attribute to villainy that which can be adequately explained by stupidity"
-----
"Men rarely if ever dream up a god superior to themselves. Most gods have the manners and morals of a spoiled child. "

-- Robert A Heinlein